Selects: Timber! How Timber Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hi folks Chuck here on a Saturday. morning for me uh maybe Saturday. afternoon maybe it's not Saturday at all. in your world who knows but we released. these curated selects on Saturday and. here's my pick for this week from. January 21st. 2016. Timber how Timber. [Music]. Works welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart Radio.

[Music]. hey and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh. Clark there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. Jerry's over there with postnasal drip. of some sort and that makes uh this. stuff you should know it makes this room. a infection Zone oh Jerry are you sick. no she's not sick are you no good she's. just snotty that's fine as long as she's. not sick are you sick no man how you.

feeling great good tired are you yeah. well you're a dad all dads are tired. aren't they no has nothing to do with it. oh yeah no why are you tired just. uh didn't get enough sleep last night. okay but not because Dad stuff okay. we'll leave it at that everyone how that. for building a wall let's back away from. that question shall we instead Chuck. take my hand and let's wander off into. the forest.

uh this is pretty neat I got to say I. was excited about this because a it's. dense like a forest B it's cool like a. forest and C it provides a great canopy. over our heads it does a canopy of. knowledge yeah I reverse engineered that. last one oh you did yeah like man he is. on a rooll today we're going to get a. few we're going to get some stuff wrong. on this one I don't know if that's. correct I feel like any time we tackle.

something. that's in any industry like this the. people in that industry are going to. have way better current information than. we will so I think it's funny because I. picked up on the same thing not just. with the industry but also with the. battle over yeah um forestry rights this. is a Minefield my friend it really is. because I I this this um article was. written a number of years back and is. very friendly to the forestry industry. yeah it's not like extraordinarily.

conservation-minded. um as far as I'm. concerned yeah well I I don't think I. don't think I had a SL drop a bombshell. no I don't think it had a slant I saw it. as pretty neutral I don't know man like. um but here's how confused I was and. we'll get to this later but these. initiatives and certification programs. that we'll get to later I I didn't know. like which one I should like and not. like at the end I can tell you well save. it okay all right I somebody to tell me.

what to like and not like I can tell you. just save it all right I'm saving it all. right let's talk about forests in. general Chuck yes uh well let's talk. about our country a little bit um the. United States well even more let's talk. about our continent okay North America. that's right uh when settlers came over. here there was a lot of. trees there were a lot of trees do you. remember in our pigeon episode like the. idea that there are so many what was it. passenger pige that that died off that.

were just driven to extinction because. of. humans I'm pretty sure it was pass I got. confused in the episode about which Pig. very confusing thing and they think that. ultimately the pigeons had been managed. by Native Americans who were wiped out. by disease so that when the first. Europeans really came along they saw. tons of pigeons place was overrun with. pigeons because there was no one there. to to hunt anymore right yeah same thing. with the forest they think there was so. much Forest cover that it was because.

the Native Americans who had managed the. forest before had all died off right or. largely died off and then what we. thought was just this crazy stretch of. force that had always been there was. actually fairly new yeah but it's. probably not the case well at any rate. uh way back in the 1600s about 40% of. land north of Mexico was trees yeah not. too bad no that's a lot of trees uh and. trees are great cuz they give us wood I. mean they let to uh you know Prem metal.

it was all about wood yeah you know. ships buildings houses wagons William. Harris who wrote this article yeah he. makes the the very smart point that we. came and cut down trees and basically. built a a new nation yeah certainly a. new economy several new nations out of. wood definitely for sure like literally. out of what uh if you're talking the. world and planet Earth about 30%.

uh is Forest land and uh Russia and. Brazil lead the way because they have. huge tracks of land yeah but as a. continent actually Europe is the most. they have the most Forest of any Contin. the most dense I believe that they have. 1,1 million which is a little over a. billion hectares hectares point4 Acres. right sure the total number of acreage. if you're in the US of forest land. throughout the world World 1.58 billion.

Acres of. forests uh is that the most broad. definition of a forest that includes. everything and that's in the US no no no. that's the world 1.58 billion acres in. the world gotcha yeah because in the us. there if you if you talk to a. Forester they will say everyone thinks. that you see a bunch of trees and that's. a forest but they would narrow down that. definition to at least one acre right uh. of land land which has at least 10% tree.

cover that's a pretty that's a good. definition for a forest I'm on board. with that well if you're talking that. definition then the US uh has about 750. million Acres uh 766 in Canada Y and uh. that's that's Forest my friend boom. we're done yeah it was a Minefield but. we navigated it but this is about Timber. and that's different than Forest it is. different than Forest so a forest is. that definition that you just said it's. an acre of with 10% tree cover right yep.

Timberland is a type of forest land but. it has to have a certain amount of uh. usable um trees on it or Timber to make. it timber land right yes I grew up in a. forest actually now that I think about. it oh yeah by that definition nice what. was it called it was called Chuck's. house Chuck's House Forest yeah I mean. it was I think we I had we had like an. acre and a half and most of it was trees. so the more than 10% oh yeah easy so you.

had a dense forest it was pretty dense. that's awesome did you learn to climb. trees out there no but I used to get. poked fun at because I didn't grow up in. a a neighborhood like most kids it was. just a street with like six houses in. the forest who would make fun of you for. that what were they saying well you know. it's cool to grow up in a neighborhood. when in the 80s hey man I grew up in a. neighborhood in the 80s it wasn't that. great I was jealous man because everyone. else would sneak out at night to then go. to their friend's house and there were. swimming pools and tennis courts and.

community centers and it was just like. me and my brother in woods but I guess I. can I got older and everyone was like. dude your house is awesome you live out. in the middle of the woods yeah well. plus you were lucky to have your brother. to hang out with he's a great guy true. yeah good point. so you know I had a a door that led out. to the back porch when I was growing up. it's like there's no sneaking out I just. opened the door and went out from my. room just like go ahead.

come come and go as you please no I. wasn't supposed to but there wasn't a. lot of sneaking involved it was opening. the door and quietly closing it you. didn't have to I always wanted to shimmy. up a drain pipe to my room have you. shimmying up or down Down's a lot easier. than up I could have shimmed when I was. 10 or 12 though ain't no shimmying. anymore we so people have sent in that. guide posts cover is that you no okay it. it it's just some other kid from 1984. playing the trumpet yeah I never played.

the trumpet and I never wore blue. blocker sunglasses either it doesn't. look like you but I was like No And it. may not have been a four piece picture. but I think it was okay someone will. find it I hope so okay so let's get back. to Timberland yes Timberland is a forest. that's capable of growing something like. 20 cubic feet of commercial wood per. acre per year that's right that's it uh. and um people estimate 2third of our. nation is Forest land uh and 502 million.

Acres of that is Timberland yeah that's. not bad not bad at all no so the key. here though is and this is where the big. debate comes up we're not going to get. into it necessarily now but the the key. is that yes you can have a forest that. is capable of growing 20 cubic feet of. commercial grade Lumber Timber a year um. but you also want it to be able to. regrow yeah sustainable harvesting right. so what you're after is What's called.

the net annual increase this article. calls it a net annual gain that's wrong. yeah it's a net annual increase which. means that the amount of stuff you're. growing in a given year is more than. what you're harvesting what the. difference between a gain and an. increase I'm just saying the industry. term oh gotcha yeah I looked up net. industry gain or yeah net annual gain. and they said you must be city Folk. right idiot. increase uh so the you just basically. it's pretty simple you just want to take.

less trees than you're growing in a. particular year or that you have than. you have in in reserve yeah and um. actually the United States is has been. in anet annual gain for for decades now. yeah like it's a it's a real concern. it's a cause for worry that we over over. Harvest trees well we used to man that. we DeForest but if you look at the. historical data we are growing more. trees than we're taking um every year.

yeah I think uh the stat was since the. 19 since 1920 we haven't made anything. worse right and apparently and since the. 50s we've gotten way better I I think. four times the 70s were like kind of bad. but I think that was like the the. transition decade yeah yeah yeah what. this made me really appreciate were. early conservationists yeah like Tedd. Roosevelt yeah because post Civil War. and during pre Civil War. even people sort of took what they.

wanted and did what they wanted with the. land there wasn't a lot of foresight and. so early conservationists were really. fighting an uphill battle back then I. think so I just have a lot of respect. for them to say you know what I don't. know if this is smart what's going to. happen in a 100 years like I know you. need your log cabin jebadiah what's. mindboggling to me is that that debate. still goes on yeah that's true you know. but not even just with Timber with like. climate in general climate change things. like that agreed uh all right so if. you're a scientist you're going to.

classify Forest usually by what kind of. trees are there um for instance a. tropical rainforest you're going to have. broadleaf Evergreens a boreal forest. you're going to have uh needle Leaf. Evergreens then there's the temperate. forest which is like what we have here. in the Southeast yeah and in the US. there are five uh major regions Pacific. Coast Rocky Mountain North South and I. love it Alaska has its own region yes. just cuz it's it deserves it and there's. a lot of trees up there yeah and in fact. in fact there's been a little bit of a.

scandal recently as far as Alaska and. trees go oh really yeah are you going to. is that a tease it's a tease okay uh but. we're going to consider a couple of. regions here and we're going to mainly. be talking about the United States. because that's where we live yeah but. there are trees everywhere yeah and you. can apply this to a lot of places but. east of the old mississipp uh is the. hardwood region and West is. softwood and uh if you're talking. hardwood you gums Maples Oaks Walnut.

very hardwood Walnut mahogany is mahog. is mahogany in there actually now I. think about I think mahogan is a um. tropical rainforest tree is it yeah I'm. an idiot all right no you're not that's. what I get for coming up with something. on my. own uh soft Woods you're talking Pine um. Spruce Hemlock Douglas fur redwoods. those are softwoods sure and we're just. getting started there's a lot of. information coming your way.

should we take a break here should we I. don't know it sounded like you were. working up toward that that was a Breaky. setup wasn't it all right let's take a. break we'll come back and we'll talk. about why W is. [Applause]. [Music]. good all right wood is good cuz you can. use it for lots of stuff which we'll.

talk about and I didn't realize this. that we've been using it for a very long. time one at least 1 and a half million. years right starting with fire and like. clubs and yeah did you realize that we'd. harnessed fire that many years. ago H I don't know if I ever really. thought about. it that is a long time for people to be. building fires a million and a half. years ago yeah that that completely. reshapes my ideas of hominids from 1.5. million years ago what did you think. about them before not that they could.

create fire they're a bunch of cold. dopes a little bit maybe that they just. kind of made do with what came their way. rather than actually making fire you. know yeah we should do a podcast on the. the origins of fire we did do went on. fire yeah but I don't think we. covered like the first fires did we or. did we H probably not yeah I think I. since seen Quest for Fire which we've. talked about oh yeah good. movie uh uh kind of want to talk about. my favorite part but this is a family.

podcast so I won't yeah there's it's. pretty brutal in a lot of ways isn't it. yeah all right so why is wood good um. like I said you can make stuff out of it. another big thing is uh carbon. sequestration which is why you hear a. lot of people battling clear cutting for. us because uh carbon sequestration's. great it traps carbon so the buildup of. uh CO2 is reduced yeah as a matter of. fact trees account for 70% of the. organic carbon locked. in the Earth yeah that's why that canopy.

is is important right uh they also. provide habitats for all our animals and. uh birds and insects and all the plants. and good things yeah that we love and uh. the hydrologic cycle so uh a forest will. help soak up rainfall and filter the. water uh as it becomes groundwater all. very important stuff yeah if you like. drinking water you can thank trees for. helping keep the soil in tiptop shape to.

uh filter out all that nasty stuff yeah. so yes forests are extraordinarily. important right what is good but you. also can make pretty good use of it too. like um if you're a clever primate like. we humans are you canot only use it for. fire which a lot of people still do. around the world firewood is still of um. huge um use of wood yeah of uh Timber. around the world nothing beats a natural. wood fire in a fireplace in your home no.

it's true you know but um do you. remember when we were when we shot those. Toyota those Toyota videos at um. Carnegie melon oh yeah and one of the. Innovation things was like a a filter. like a easy cheap portable filter for. cooking fires indoor cooking fires I. remember that cuz that was a big problem. people were like making using wood fires. to cook with but they were doing it. indoors and like suffering all sorts of. lung problems yeah and that still. happens in uh you know.

non-industrialized Nations yes is that. what we call things it's the it says. it's the prime it's the primary fuel for. cooking and heating in developing. countries right non-industrialized I. think that's even better all right so uh. here in the US though and and a lot of. uh countries these days only 7% of. Timber is used for uh I guess Heating. and cooking yeah there's a big push. against even that 7% too really yeah. just such a I agree with you I love fire.

is but it's wasteful yes okay well I. don't have a working fireplace so I just. like them you just like the idea of it. well I want one but I have one of those. old you know houses from the 1930s. that it's expensive to get it. retrofitted have you ever gotten an. estimate on it yeah I need chimney work. I need a bigger Firebox they said. something like eight or 10 grand the guy. like tried to talk me out of it yeah the. the the dude I was like you don't want. to make money yeah like I want to fire. and he like oh I don't know it's pretty.

expensive I wouldn't like all right it's. wasteful uh so s% goes toward that uh. Lumber which we'll get to in a minute is. about 53% in the US of Timber yeah and. most of that goes to new house. construction it turns out oh really mhm. that makes sense uh Pulp and Paper are. 32% and then uh composits like Plywood. And veneer the other seven right. although I think we're missing one. percentage Point aren't we or are.

we yeah yeah I wonder what that. is it's the mystery percent the mystery. percent God knows what they're doing to. that 1% of wood uh all right so I said. the word. Lumber And Lumber isn't. just cut wood no just like Timberland. isn't just Forest yeah no Forest isn't. just Timberland right Lumber is actually. a specific thing it is wood that is. squared or rectangular so when you go to.

the the hardware store M you see all the. 2x4s and 2x sixes and all that stuff. that is Lumber because it is square if. you point to a post a round post and go. give me three of the. Lumbers they'll say boy where did you. come from yeah you're wrong on a couple. of points here so that's called. roundwood actually yeah that doesn't. that that's not included in Lumber. that's a little nitpicky if you're. outside the industry I think I agree. with you wholeheartedly but if someone.

points that out then I don't know punch. him in the face with a 2x4 right that's. not that's not Lumber that's where I'm. with remember uh hacks saw Jim Dugen. didn't he attack people with a 2x4 in. the. WWF I didn't watch a ton of wrestling. I'm pretty sure he had like a. 2x4 that makes sense it's violent uh. construction it's about a 50/50 split. with Lumber um in the US about half goes. to construction and about half goes to.

uh pallets crates and Furniture yeah. dude no I didn't know it would be that. high I read an extraordinarily. interesting article on the pallet trade. oh I'm sure it's there's like a whole. cartel controlling pallet that people. rebel against and um there's like pallet. thieves and counterfitters and it like. just it's a really interesting AR I'll. see if I can find it I'll post it in the. podcast page for this well pallets you. can um you can make a lot of cool things. out of pallets and a lot of people are. finding other uses so they think you can.

just go behind the grocery store and. take them sure so now a lot of places. have big signs that are like do not take. these palletes no especially if they're. blue like that's stealing if they're. blue palletes yeah you you can get the. place where you stole them from sued. yeah that's the saying if the pallet is. blue it's not for you because you'll get. sued that's. right uh Furniture uh if you make. furniture you're going to like Hardwood. like Oak and maple because it's durable.

and it has that lovely grain and. mahogany that we all love so much right. but softwood is no slouch either no but. pallets are used in hardwood too cuz. it's sturdy right but uh yeah softwood. is a different deal no they usually use. softwood for construction Lumber too um. because it contains fewer knots and. things like that and actually softwood. is used chuck more for um construction. Lumber because it you can make it long. and straight. which is that's how you want your.

construction Lumber long and straight. nobody wants like kind of a Topsy Turvy. house yeah maybe a crazy person but most. people don't they want straight Plum. houses yeah although it's tough if. you've ever done a home Rena project to. find straight Lumber these days is that. right yeah you go in there and they're. they all seem like they're warped and. bent and if you're yeah and if you're a. a amateur like me it doesn't help you. out any if your Lumber is not straight. no you want straight Lumber I don't know. how to make up for that like my buddy.

Isaac uh in Kansas that helped me do my. house right he would go pick out stuff. and I would say this is curved he'd be. like I can account for that huh but I. can't he's got like a special organ in. his brain yeah it's called. smarts construction carpentry smarts. okay so that's Lumber right yeah um you. can also make paper out of wood yes this. might be the fact of the podcast you. ready for this yeah paper is made out. out of wood Oh I thought you had.

something else no you got me have we. done one on paper before cuz this seemed. awfully familiar no but I will say this. touched off like five different topics. that we should cover okay paper being. one of them all right the origin of fire. paper yeah what else um. deforestation okay in Earnest yeah we're. going to touch on it but and then there. was a couple more I think. okay. pornography just kidding. um so let's talk about the uh cellular.

structure of wood because it's very. important well especially when you're. talking about paper yeah like that was. not just a Nonet quitter it actually. makes sense exactly so trees yeah like. everything else are made of cells. correct that's right and when you take. enough of these cells and stack them. together you can create something as. strong and tall and rigid as a tree yeah. but it takes a certain kind of cell to. make a tree uh yeah the the cell if you. think of the walls of the cells uh they.

make the tree strong and there are a. couple of chemicals that make up these. walls uh cellulose and lignan and. cellulose is flexible and bendy and. lignan says no no I'm your glue. cellulose I'm going to keep you um more. rigid because I don't want you to bend. so they work together yeah to make it. whether cellulose likes it or not yeah I. always wondered about that it has to go. along with it it's like I wanted to bin. lignan get out of my face right Lan's. like no no coloring Outside the Lines uh.

so if you separate those things which. we've been doing for a long time now you. can get those cellulose fibers and. actually make something called pulp. which will eventually make paper right. and you can form it into a mat press and. dry it and bleach it and turn it into. paper like you said you can also make. other stuff too um technically fiber. board you know the stuff that they use. to put on the backs of dressers and. things these days uh crud yeah that's.

actually made from paper pulp yeah India. pul I should say um if you're if you're. at another hardware store and some guy. that works there lady says what you want. to use is MDF what's that Medium density. fiber board okay and that way they won't. think you're a city Folk all right you. can say yeah MDF sure. totally and then they'll know your city. Folk I'll be like give me three of those. mdfs uh and then you have hard board and. that's even stronger than fiber board uh.

and it's just I think it's harder. because it's pressed together with so. much pressure it's more dense yeah. fiberboard is Pulp and glue pressed. pressed together hardboard is the same. thing but press together like you said. under pressure and then completely. different actually although it does seem. like it would bear a pretty striking. resemblance is um particle board right. yes these are composits Plywood And. particle board are both composits right.

uh but they are different the difference. between MDF and particle board is uh MDF. is uh well particle board is cheaper and. it's made out of. sawdust whereas the MDF is is made of. actual fiber right out of pulp yeah does. that make sense yeah like Chuck you. realize that Stephy should know has hit. such a stride that we're talking about. particle. board it just hit me uh plywood is when.

you take if you look at plywood and uh. on the side of it you'll see that it's a. lot of little veneers pressed together. yeah that's what they're called yeah. veneers veneers plywood's great but if. you really want something that's just as. tough just as durable but cheaper you're. going to go for the oriented strand. board OSB baby which is basically like. plywood made out of particle board yeah. and it's it's all but replaced plywood. and construction these days home. construction because it's cheaper uh it.

is stronger and more durable and I was. wondering why it was stronger and it's. because it comes from it's right there. in the name it's oriented the specific. orientation of the uh wood strands makes. makes it stronger oh okay I guess so. it's not just uh haphazardly tossed. together and pressed I guess by God. specifically oriented right uh invented. in 1963 and by man uh yeah in California. I think actually nice yeah so your OSB.

if you go into your hardware store and. they'll say you either want MDF or. OSB say I know what I'm talking about so. don't try and don't try and trick me. right I didn't just fall off of the. turnup truck of the Lumber. Truck uh all right where are we now are. we harvesting yet yeah so to get to this. point to get to all this wonderful. products of lumber Timber sorry man I. have a lot of trouble trouble not. confusing Lumber with timber that's.

right Lumber is timber timber is not. necessarily Lumber right that's what I. was taught as a young boy so when you. harvest Timber there's a couple of. approaches right and um well there's. several approaches but they really fall. under two umbrellas one is the take. everything to hell with ecology approach. called clear cutting yes that is all. these trees can make some money Argo I'm. going to cut down all these trees yeah. typically over 5 acres is a clear cut.

yes anything under that it's called a. patch cut okay although people disagree. on that definition too but the. suggestion is that uh under 5 Acres an. area that small could recover being. effectively clearcut uh I'm not sure it. has to do with recovery oh it has to do. with the amount of money made I don't. know I'm not sure all right well with. clear cutting you just go in and you cut. down everything it's um it's pretty. straightforward really uh it takes. slightly more thought to come up with a.

good what's called a silver culture. approach silver culture takes into. account the idea that you want that area. that you cut down to grow back to renew. so that again you hit that um net annual. increase rather than decrease right to. where the amount of trees you have in. stock or growing in a particular year is. actually more than the amount of trees. you harvest that same year right to do. that you have to be selective you have. to be smart in the number amount and.

type of trees you cut down at during any. given uh tree cut yeah uh with clear. cutting when you hear that you would. just think like why would anyone argue. that that's a good idea yeah uh but. people do it's very controversial um if. you're in the the timber timber industry. yeah forestry industry forestry industry. uh you can say um you will think in good. confidence that you can say that clear.

cutting is fine if you do it the right. way I I I don't get that yeah they said. that there are seven conditions uh that. if you meet them then it's actually. better uh that sounds like propaganda do. you want me to read the seven conditions. yes I do because I'm interested when. regenerating tree species that need full. sunlight to stimulate seed sprouting and. seedling growth uh when dealing with. sparse or exposed shallow rooted trees. that are in danger of being damaged by. wind uh when trying to produce an EV age. stand and a stand I found is a group of.

trees that are the same species age and. condition that you can manage as a unit. that's a stand of trees okay uh when. regenerating stands of tree species that. are dependent on wind blown seed root. suckers or cones that need fire to drop. seed when face was salvaging overmature. stands or stands killed by insects. disease or fire uh when converting to. another tree species by planting or. seeding and finally to provide habitat. for wildlife species that require Edge.

new ground and high density even age. stands I couldn't make sense out of any. of that well one of it really stuck out. to me and it was that it it for when. you're cutting down an entire area. that's been hit by pests or disease that. one makes sense to me especially if. you're trying to contain an epidemic. yeah sure clearcut that makes sense. everything else I mean there were some. there's some logic to it at least it's. not just total mad. yeah opponents to clear cutting will say.

it uh increases soil erosion water. degradation uh increases silt in streams. and rivers um Aesthetics is the main. reason that most people are opposed to. it yeah or that many people are sure is. that it just looks like a wasteland. right well the problem is also with. clear cutting um it sets the stage for. invasive species of say like fast. growing weeds to overcome seedlings yeah. and it it keeps the forest from. regenerating yeah so therefore clear.

cutting most people I guess except for. the people who came up with those seven. conditions tend to believe that is it's. an unsustainable method of harvesting. Timber right uh a more sustainable. method uh is shelterwood cutting that's. a type of silver culture yeah and that's. when they use partial cuting over time. we're talking over 10 or 20 years only. two to four harvests uh where things can. naturally regenerate during that time. frame right that sounds like a good idea.

it is um there's also seed tree cut SE. uh seed tree harvesting and then uh. selection harvesting which is where you. basically go in and say this tree uh. that tree that tree yeah for that are. more marketable but opponents or. proponents of clear cutting say that's. worse I don't know why though I can see. I can see what they're saying I mean. like think about it like you're. artificially selecting yeah and you're. you're disrupting the balance or the. Ecology of the forest by saying just.

these Great Oaks leave all these other. crummy Elms yeah but the thing is is. you're also affecting the ecology by. cutting down everything yeah the. ecosystem I would like to hear from. someone that really knows their stuff. that is a proponent of clear cutting to. explain it better to me yeah okay than. the internet did please do all right um. so when you do what when you do use any. kind of silver cultural technique uh and. you're not just C cutting you have to go. through the the forest and figure out.

what trees you're going to take a lot of. times and even with clear cutting they. will leave um trees that are say 6 in in. diameter yeah or less in size they're. too young it's like how you um. leave fawns when you're deer hunting. yeah it's the exact same thing uh I love. the name of that process when. determining um and surveying the land to. work it all out it's called cruising it. is I'm going to go Cruise the Forest.

right everybody you know drives around. the forest with the pack of cigarettes. rolled up in their shirt sleeves um next. comes. felling and I got confused with tree. felling on the correct way so I put a. little post on Facebook and I had a guy. named Gabriel fribly who worked as a. forest service fire and fuel management. dude and he said I've cut hundreds if. not thousands of trees so you want to. hear what he says yeah cuz we would. screw it up I guarantee it okay are you.

about to say that you know better than. this guy I don't know better than this. guy but this this article was definitely. wrong from everything I found yeah. that's exactly why I asked uh he said. terminology changes depending on where. you are and uh who you're talking to. there are a number of different ways to. do so but the safest and most common is. to cut a wedge out of a tree measure. about a third of the diameter of the. measuring about a third of the diameter. of the tree in the direction you want. the tree to fall then you that's where I. would just stop yeah my my brain just.

shut down yeah uh then you uh cutting. this wedge will require two cuts a flat. cut and then a sloping cut that meets. the flat cut and frees the wedge uh the. combination of these two cuts is. commonly called the face cut okay so. then the that is on the side of the tree. in the direction it's going to fall. correct and it's like a. triangle yes with one one the bottom cut. is 90° the Top Cut Is 40 5° I think so. okay uh the the wedge acts as a hinge so.

the tree falls in a safe controlled. manner then there is the third cut most. commonly called the back cut okay which. is a straight cut in the opposite side. of the tree about halfway through the. diameter of the tree maybe a little more. and that's about 2 in above the bottom. cut on the other side okay from what I. saw uh and he said ideally you want to. leave 20% of the diameter of the tree. intact between the back cut and the. wedge and that's called holding wood and. I think he said holding wood is just.

what it sounds like it holds a tree. together to make like it's not coming. down on your head basically mhm it holds. it together till you're ready and he. said if you've done these two correctly. three actually you should be able to. Simply push the tree over with your. hands wow or drive a wedge into the back. to bring the tree down I'll bet that's. pretty awesome to push a huge tree down. with your hands and yel Timber yeah uh. so thank you to Gabriel uh Gabriel. fribly thanks Gabriel and for. firefighting forest fires yeah that's. pretty neat or starting them oh come on.

no the forestry service does control. burns oh yeah I thought you meant like. cuz there have been cases where they've. found arson and and it was actually a. fireman or his mother firefighter do you. remember that no there was a a dude who. was a wildfire firefighter who was not. getting enough work I think that's what. I was thinking was it the mom the mom. went and set a fire so so that her son. could make some money God bless.

her not really but you know the mom that. just wants to like take care of business. for her son right that's nice so Chuck. um you've gone through you cut a bunch. of trees yep uh the first thing the. loggers do is they hop all over the. trees and go and they cut all the L the. limbs off yes right that's called. bucking yep and then once you've got the. tree bucked you cut it into huge logs. yep from top to bottom and then you tie. the log up or you chain them to a. tractor and you skid them along a.

skidding Trail that's right to um what's. called the uh landing area all right and. they pre-plan these skidding Trails yeah. this is very important it's not just. willy-nilly uh because they are trying. to protect the forest at the same time. yeah because if you have a bunch of. tractors driving out with lots and lots. of heavy logs heavy heavy logs attached. to them you're going to compact the soil. like this was a tree 10 minutes ago. right now it's a log yes huge logs and.

so um if you're going to compact some. area of soil you might as well just. compact the same area of soil rather. than a bunch of areas of soil so that. the rest of the forest can stay healthy. and when you get to the landing area. these logs are going to be basically. graded and sorted and some of them are. either going to be sent straight to the. uh pul Mills to be created into paper. those are crer logs generally right or. fiber board or something like that and. then um. others may be sent in the higher grade.

stuff will probably be sent to um. Sawmills right or concentration yards. right which are basically the second. stage of these Landing areas where um. these people say we're going to put all. these this specific species of trees. over here because this one Sawmill likes. only Oaks so we're going to send them. their Oaks right so either the landing. area goes directly to Sawmill or there's. that extra step of the concentration. yard in there yeah and if this sounds. Danger. um yeah it is and depending on what year.

you're looking at logging uh is either. the one or two aside from commercial. fishing most dangerous job in the United. States at least either way you can find. documentary television shows about these. professions on Discovery Channel that's. right check your local listing and other. channels um this past year I think it. was commercial fishing airline pilot was. number three. I find that very unnerving yeah right.

that's what I thought I like I thought. planes didn't crash much what's up with. that I don't know well in my fear of. flying just came back uh farmers and uh. ranchers are four in case you're. wondering mining machine operator then. roofers sanitation collectors which I. thought was interesting are you sure. it's not like military jet pilot dude. Soldier wasn't even listed in the top 10. an airline pilot but like I said I think. they go by deaths in that previous year. I don't so it probably depends on if. we're at war or you know okay but.

airline pilot was still in there it was. dude uh and then truckers and Industrial. machinists especially Ice Road. Truckers probably yeah for real I'm sure. among truckers that they probably have. the higher mortality rate well you were. Shilling for Discovery I think that. one's on History oh okay you're Shilling. more for Discovery now than when they. owned us which is weird it is weird what. do you think podcaster is. podcaster pretty cushy unless apparently.

you're on a commercial airline like a. one in 10 million chance of death yes if. you're a. podcaster an on the job death I'm really. you know we could figure that out if we. knew what math was I don't I could I'm. trying to think if like how we would die. from doing. this flying somewhere to do a live. podcast probably right I would say if. somebody locked the door and Jerry. started a fire in here right then we. could probably die from podcast or. actually in our case it would be if.

Jerry finally snaps and just murders us. both I don't know I think we could fend. Jerry off so Chuck um once the stuff. hits the Sawmill we'll go there we. already kind of Hit the pulp Mill yeah. which stink by the way one of the. foulest smells on Earth is are those. like the can I just say egg fart no way. worse than that Oh I thought it was like. that real sulfury smell no that's. wellwater down in Florida okay this is. like it's its own smell right you've. surely smelled it before you ever been.

to a chicken farm that's a okay you're. right that's that might be the worst. smell of all didn't you used to work on. chicken farms doing software or. something yeah not on farms oh okay but. but other people in our company would go. to the farms and like teach them how to. use the software that smells so bad. which is imagine that job going teaching. these uh people that have been like. literally counting chicken heads for. their entire life teach them how to use. the computer to do it yeah they were not. re many times talking about hunting and. pecking yeah there was a lot of hunting.

and pecking so um at the at the uh. Sawmill right yeah when you're cutting. up well when you're when you get a bunch. of logs you're like these are some good. logs yeah but I can't do much with this. bark you can use mulch that kind of. thing sure and actually bark I didn't. realize this bark represents basically. one of. two organs of the tree there's actually. three should we talk about the inside of. a tree a little bit yeah I thought this. was interesting yeah me too so so the.

bark is the folm it's the sugar. conducting cells flm flow them and and. basically it just provides energy it. transfers energy throughout the tree. yeah it's like the internal piping part. of it is the FL yeah and there's that. one Bugs Bunny song it makes like you. know that Bugs Bunny assembly line song. I remember the totally. Powerhouse power something yeah yeah so. that's the sound that that makes if you. listen very carefully in a.

forest true uh there's another set of. internal piping uh the tissue called the. xylm uh and they carry the xylm carries. the water up and down the tree right and. they're well suited to do so because. they are like pipes they are shaped like. piping right so the fum flum that's bark. yeah the xylm that's the wood inside and. in between the two you have a thin layer. that's basically stem cells it's called.

the cambium and the cambium produces. flum and um xyum cells and it produces. xylem cells inward right yeah so the. stuff the part of the tree that's. closest to the bark is also the youngest. yeah the Heartwood no that's in the. center deep yeah that's the sapwood. further inside deeper into the tree. that's the older xylm and that's the. Heartwood it's just the oldest part of. the tree yes and you when the a log gets. to The Sawmill they're going to.

basically separate those two things. because there's different uses for. sapwood and for Heartwood but the first. thing they're going to do is get rid of. the bark yeah they put it uh in a. debarking drum and it's kind of like a. nightclub it just kind of everything. rubs together yeah they put a several. different logs in and let the logs rub. their own bark off of one another yeah. they put on little music it's pretty. horrific machine like you're a tree and. uh all of a sudden you have a naked tree. right you know strip the skin right off. of it then that bark can become a mulch.

and uh what else oh fuel fuel pretty. much it okay decorative Mulch and fuel. but the once you've got that naked log. you're all set so you want to cut the um. the sapwood from the Heartwood because. the the Heartwood is extraordinarily. strong and you use it for posts and. Timbers and beams and things like that. that you really are going to put a lot. of weight on yeah flooring some times. right sometimes and actually there's. another article I read once about this.

um like uh this commercial diving. company down in like Central Florida. yeah that their whole job was they would. go down in the swamp and um like raise. old Cypress logs Oh Yeah from the 19th. century that have just been down there. since then yeah and um they sell them as. like reclaimed original like heart of. Cypress for flooring people pay. mindboggling amounts for because this.

this log was felled you know hund. something years ago and it just sank it. happened to be one of the ones that sank. and they couldn't do anything with it. back then there were so many cypress. trees that they just didn't even bother. with those so now these guys go down and. dive and identify him and raise them up. and then sell them that junk is heavy. yeah uh and actually that perfect time. to mention my buddy Jason from Dam. Caster. guitars he built me a custom tele Caster. replica and they.

use uh old wood from a dam in Georgia. that had been underwater for like a. hundred years that's really cool and. this thing is it's the heaviest guitar. it's beautiful but it's tough on my back. is it is it worth it though yeah man. it's I mean it's gorgeous and the wood. they get is really just heavy and dense. and gorgeous wood and they got this big. load of it from a dam that they tore. down in I think Columbus Georgia and so. they've got all this wood now that. they're making these sweet guitars out. of would you name your guitar uh I. haven't named it I don't really name my.

guitars although he wanted me to yeah. you got to name your guitar I don't I. got four guitars they're one through. four no you should name one Joanie and. one Chachi at least all right and one. and I always keep them right next to. each other and one uh Fonzi and one uh. Ralph Mouf now who is fans's uh leather. leather Tuscadero yeah pinky tusca well. they're sisters so was Pinky the younger. sister I think leather was the one that. looked like Joan and Pinky was the one. that looked like a a bombshell model.

like had the you know the pink sweaters. and the the big poofy hair so he which. one did he date I think he dated uh. Pinky Okay leather she she didn't need. guys she was a rock and roller I think I. remember who you're talking about yeah. she I don't remember Pinky Tuscadero I. definitely remember leather Tuscadero. yeah man whoever wrote that show was a. genius right yeah well what they're. doing is they're satisfying everyone. they're like you like the ladies rough. and tum Umble or you like them dressed. up in pink with like poofy hair right do.

you like them with an Italian name. right uh where are we have we debarked. uh we're in like 1950s Milwaukee right. yes we have debarked to answer your. question Okay so we've debarked you got. a naked log if it's going to be paper. it's going to go to a chipper which uh. cuts the log into little little squares. about 2 in uh by a qu4 of an inch thick. and they're going to mix those chips up. with chemicals and stuff they're going. to uh put it in a digestor it's a big.

pressure cooker and that is what. separates that cellulose from the uh. lignan that we talked about earlier to. get your pulp yeah just want to get that. ligant out of there yeah and it's wet. it's fibrous uh they bleach it to the. proper shade uh mix it with water again. form it into big mats and then press. them under these incredible rollers to. press out all that water right and then. there you go you got what will be paper. right and if you're making Lumber you uh.

send your um your. log to the um. Scooby-Doo head rig is what it's called. yeah man those things are awesome the. thing that people are always tied on. going toward oh yeah sort of and it just. cuts the log in half or it cuts the. edges off and maybe like just cuts out. the heart yeah sort of roughs it out. right and then you have um a couple of. other types of saws there's a trimmer. that squ squares the ends and before. that you have an edger which creates the.

um well the edges for your Lumber yeah. and then of course there's a whole other. process involved in making roundwood AKA. posts which are not Lumber evidently uh. your Heartwood is going to be um older. obviously CU you know how you can tell a. tree by the Rings those inner rings that. we talked about the xylem right and as. the cambium is creating more xylem cells. they're going on the outside of. Heartwood yeah um and the tree is. growing outward and there there going to.

be more knots in that Heartwood too uh. from branches past it's sturdier but a. lot of people would also be like I don't. want to see knots so they're not going. to use it for things or I do want to see. knots yeah depending on what you're. doing sickos like a good knot in the. right place for instance my guitar has a. beautiful knot in the center of the back. that's just gorgeous. Joanie no that uh I would call this one. uh pinky Tuscadero I think okay so. that's Pinky Tuscadero or maybe leather.

tus Le. tusca uh but I actually looked up knots. I was like wait what is a knot not even. thinking well of course it's just a. former Branch oh I didn't think about. that either yeah it's either a branch. base or a a branch Bud that never. happened huh do you know not only did I. not think that that's what a knot was I. didn't even think think what it not. was yeah all right and the last part of. that process is you got to dry the stuff. out so you stack it up sort it out and. you dry it in a Kil correct yeah all.

right just like you made something out. of clay should we take a break yeah. let's take a break man and then we'll. take it. [Applause]. [Music]. home so Chuck you kind of mentioned like. early conservation folks that you um.

were in awe of John mure Teddy Roosevelt. yeah John Mir was cool weirdo yeah um. and these people they reacted to this. rampant um deforestation that was going. on like there was a significant amount. of logging that happened between the. 17th century and the mid-9th century. yeah up to 30% of the original Forest. Land by the end of the Civil War was. gone yeah and we're talking about a. billion Acres wow that was originally.

there so 30% of that gone right. unbelievable and there was what was. called a um they were worried that there. was going to be a quote National Famine. of wood yeah and it wasn't just. conservation at the time like Plastics. had not been developed sure um cheap. easy metal alloys weren't developed. until say the mid 20th century right. yeah so yeah we really used wood a lot. and for also for fuel for cooking for. heating all that stuff we needed wood so. it was going to be a big deal if we ran.

out of wood and as a result a lot of. people got behind these conservation. efforts um and especially the government. here in the United States um all. government levels own forest land um but. for the most part the federal government. owns the most yes and they don't just. protect it and say this is off limits. they say uh you guys can come and pay. for the right to cut down some uh trees. from here but you're you're going to. follow our rules yeah 323 million Acres.

of ferally owned land in this country is. public Forest land yeah so either like. national forest or I guess to be used by. the logging industry if you meet the. right conditions I guess yeah but I. think even national forests fall under. the that that umbrella as well yeah I. didn't mean there yeah that they were. not the same what what does happen. sometimes um is say an animal will be. placed an animal that calls Forest land. or Timberland its home will be placed on.

the endangered list and as a result of. that the forest industry will just. completely shift and that was the case. with the Mexican spotted owl in the 90s. yeah what happened to that guy so the. Mexican spotted aisle was on its way to. becoming extinct and it made its home in. the west the Western softwood temperate. forests right and um the US government. decided that this was enough of a. problem that they put it on the. endangered species list and protected it.

and that meant that its habitat was. protected which meant that all of this. public land that all these logging. companies used to go and log on yeah. they they couldn't log there anymore a. lot of did not like that decision no. they didn't it was enormous um and you. know that a federal agency is doing its. job when it's being sued by. conservationists and logging companies. right yeah at the same time over the. same thing sure um so or else they're. not doing their job at all depending on. how you look at it but eventually the.

Mexican spotted owl um was protected its. habitat was protected and so the the. forestry the timber industry shifted. Eastward yeah and so they they the there. was a shift not just in Direction on the. continent but also in where they were. taking Timber from right so now more. timers is taken from privately held. lands in the East than public held land. in the west because of the Mex because. of this one type of owl right completely.

changed the the complexion of the Timber. industry in the United States but the. timber industry is doing just fine yeah. you know and it's a real it's a real. testimony that like it can adapt yeah. you know the the Mexican spotted owl. can't adapt but the timber industry. can't apparently uh you ever see owls in. Atlanta yeah I have before boy they're. amazing I love owls gorgeous and that. wingspan it's like it's remarkable when. see one fly yes it's like whoa that. looks that's bigger than most birds yeah.

have you ever had one like perch outside. of your window while you're trying to. sleep yeah well I've got we have one. that lives behind our house does he keep. you up no we've seen it a couple of. times and we hear it a lot which I I. love if it doesn't like wake me up or. anything oh we had one that was keeping. us awake really you shoot it no no I. just went out and shine a flashlight in. its general direction yeah and it piped. down never heard from it again oh wow so. you got the message got. and we were owless after that he's like. that guy with the flashlight he's bad.

news getting out of here he means. business um all right so the the federal. government owns a lot of land which is. managed uh managed managed by um some. different uh bodies um but it's you know. they try and do their best job with. things like the healthy Forest. restoration act uh signed in 2003 by GW. Bush right to help protect Forest land. so Chuck it's about here though that. like this is when I was like I feel like.

we're really waiting into un explained. territory a dark Forest yeah there's a. lot of like I suspect a lot of. greenwashing going on and um so I. started poking around yeah and I I found. that the um sustainable forestry. initiative is very frequently accused of. green washing the SFI yeah so you know. how like um like fair trade like you'll. look for a fair fair trade label and you. be like I'm going to pay a little more. for this because I believe that the.

people who made it were paid a better. wage than you know this competitor that. wasn't fair tradeit that's what the. sustainable forestry initiative seal of. approval was meant for okay that you. could look for it on like a ream of. paper or something and say oh well this. thing was um this paper was harvested. using say shelter cutting techniques or. some sort of silver cultural techniques. that that promotes sustainable forestry. okay the thing is is um there's some. other groups say like Forest ethics is a.

nonprofit kind of watch doog group that. has come out and really aggressively. said that the um the sustainable. forestry initiative is basically just a. greenwashing front operation that's. funded by paper companies by it was. International Paper International Paper. um uh yeah there were a couple of others. that I think warehouser was one maybe um. that that fund this this approval comp. or organization so is it BS from what I.

can tell really it looks that way um and. yeah it's yeah it's very disconcerting. fortunately there are some that do. appear to be utterly legitimate and the. chief among them is the forest. Stewardship Council okay they do the. same thing but they're the real deal so. this article you sent me that there are. a lot of Major Brands dumping the. SFI I saw that and I was like well. that's terrible but they're moving to. the better stand standard is that. correct that's the impression I have. okay that makes sense now yeah rather.

than bearing the SFI seal of approval. like um or buying paper that bears that. seal of approval because it's not even. necessarily the paper companies that are. doing this because they're the ones. funding the SFI right it's like Office. Depot is no longer buying SFI sourced. paper okay I I'm guessing they're. probably going with the FSC the forest. Stewardship Council so hulet Packard. AT&T um Pitney B All State they buy a. lot of paper shouting them out right.

because they're doing the right thing it. sounds like yeah that makes more sense I. was confused I thought they were. dropping the SFI which was a good thing. but yeah this is all clear now thank you. hey don't thank me thank Forest ethics. who apparently routinely get ceas and. and desist letters from uh paper. companies and the forest or the sure uh. sustainable forestry initiative um and. then Chuck uh the the forest service. itself is often criticized for being in.

bed with um the timber industry I'm sure. there that Alaska thing I was teasing. earlier yeah yeah what is it there is. something called the big Thorn Timber. sale 6,000 Acres 6,200 Acres of 700 year. old forest in the tongas in southern. Alaska up for sale for clear cutting wow. clear cutting and the the problem is is. like old growth forest. yes it is that's exactly right um the. problem is is not just that people are.

worried that the forest won't recover. but that this Forest is also used by. other Industries like fishing industry. um tourism industry yeah uh these people. are like um we're using this acreage. can't just come come in and cut it down. right here's a couple of lawsuits to. stop that sale and uh I guess a federal. judge in 2015 I think March ruled no go. ahead you're well within your rights W. maybe disgusting but go ahead and sell. 6,200 Acres of old growth forest in.

Alaska for clear cutting with the. presumption that it it will go to a. Logging Company yes you would be great. is if like oh I don't know Warren. Buffett bought it right said I'm going. to build a small house in the middle of. it and that's it that guy should wear a. cape so um deforestation is a thing and. I agree with you we should definitely do. an episode just on that right yeah but. that's not the only threat to um the the. forests of the world it is a serious.

threat but man-made threats are not the. only threats no there's a few more. natural threats um insects of course uh. specifically invasive species like the. Eurasian gypsy moth came here in the. 19th century and when it's a caterpillar. it eats the leaves of hardwood trees. like a lot of them um to the tune of uh. since 1930 defoliated more than 80. million Acres that is so many trees of.

east coast forest yeah 80 million Acres. just on the East Coast this little. caterpillar yep so that's an insect uh. disease is a problem um I know here in. Georgia we've uh sudden Oak death is a. big problem yeah uh and since it was. originated in 19 or I guess found in. 1955 discovered what' I say 55 oh a full. 4 years after that 95 yeah I remember. when this happened it was probably. Clinton's fault it was Clinton's fault.

um since then has killed more than 1. million oak. trees yeah it's no gypsy moth but that's. a lot no um and then lastly invasive. species are a real problem Kudzu that. was the other one I want to do yeah oh. you want to do one on kudu heck yeah so. um kudu is a great example of an. invasive species it's a non-native fast. growing vine that in I think it's native. Japan has plenty of natural predators. that like to eat it sure right um here.

in the United States in the southeast. United States where it was given as a. gift by Japanese businessmen in the 30s. yeah um it doesn't have any natural. predators and it just grows like crazy. and the problem is it grows up and over. trees and creates its own it uses the. trees structure and then creates its own. canopy around it it basically creates a. Dyson Sphere around a tree to to to but. it it it's it's a reverse Dyson Sphere.

it's accepting the Sun from the outside. rather than harvesting it from the. inside tree death is what it means I. know don't you hate seeing that like I. just like shake my fist at at Kudzu like. get off of that tree just just stay on. the ground but do you ever take time to. go out there and with your scissors Josh. yes and cut it off that tree very. frequently um mile a minute weed is. another good example apparently uh. another Asian import that has choked the. Mid-Atlantic region I guess the lesson. here is if uh an Asian business person.

ever gives you a nonnative plant as a. gift smile politely say thank you very. much also don't make eye contact all. right and say thank you very much but I. cannot accept this gift but would you. like to go have a lovely Sushi meal. nice you got anything else I got nothing. else so that is Timber if you want go. type that word into the search bar at. howstuffworks.com and since I said. search Parts time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this coolest.

tattoo I've seen in a while uh Hey guys. listen to say tanic Panic uh today and I. loved it I love that episode by the way. it was a good one yeah we gotten some. good feedback Jerry's even nodding she. hates most of what we do she's not even. aware of most of what we do uh she was. born in 1982 this writer and she says I. remember uh family members talking about. parts of our home state of Kentucky uh. that were lousy with Satan worshippers. uh one of the things I like best in the. episode was when we talked about the. influence works of fiction had on. Superstition made me think of how I've.

encountered this in my own life have a. great love of Ouija boards and in fact I. don't think she's heard the episode on. Ouija boards cuz she didn't reference it. oh that was a good episode so Carrie we. did an episode on that you should listen. to it uh I think they are pretty and. have uh I have great memories of playing. with one as a kid I have quite a few at. home um including I have quite a few. Ouija board items including a tattoo on. my chest and she attached a photo she's. got like the. upper uh lettering of the Ouija board.

like right across like under her. neckline at the top of her chest on her. sternum yeah it's and like when she. wears like a a a dress with that exposed. right it's just lovely looking like that. font and everything I saw the photo and. I thought it was really cool looking. nice but of course she's people are. going to say like what's up with this. girl yeah she's in IGA boards uh this. has led to some very interesting. conversations of course with people a. lot of people really like it like me but. some have been a little freaked out by. it uh thanks to movies like The Exorcist.

and more recently Ouija uh the Ouija. board has been given a lot more power. and I feel that it really deserves I've. had my tattoo for over a year and have. not noticed any Paranormal Activity. surrounding me and I've not been. possessed and I have not had a demon use. my chest as a doorway to our world so I. think I will be okay we'll see uh keep. up the great work that is from Carrie uh. parentheses like the movie. W lot of uh horror movie references in.

that yeah I thought it was a very cool. tattoo nice man um well uh Carrie right. that's right okay thanks a lot Carrie. for writing in and uh if you want to. write to us you can uh send us an email. to stuff podcast howstuffworks.com and. as always join us at our home on the web. stuff you should know.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart. Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.