Selects: The Tulsa 'Race Riots' | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hey everybody it's me joshh and for this. week's select I've chosen our January. 2020 episode on the Tulsa masser it's. such a vile event that it left a stain. that spread out of Tulsa and even out of. Oklahoma to become a blemish on the. history of the entire us and it's a. lesson and how important it is to talk. about the past even the worst of the. past to move forward to heal it's also a. lesson on how you just can't bury the. past no matter how hard you try I hope. you get a lot out of this.

episode welcome to stuff you should know. a production of ihart. [Music]. radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh Clark there's Charles W Chuck. briyan over there there's Jerry over. here we have all come together in the. year 2020 to wear our silver. jumpsuits as always I know right and.

talk about a uh. a buried overlooked blemish in the. history of the United States are we not. going to recount uh no anything about. this past year no talk about this being. the first recording of the New Year nope. all. right we've had a break here I said I'm. I'm GNA push. forward uh we've been off for a couple. of weeks which was uh pretty glorious to. not have to just overtax my brain but it.

was also nice to get back in here into. the stank of this room this room I don't. think this room. stinks well right now it smells like. your caramel vanilla Frapp palape this. is just black coffee it just happens to. be flavored black coffee it's really I. mean it smells great it's I think a. Green Mountain or something caramel. vanilla coffee po man it is super. fragrant yeah.

it's nice in a great way it makes me it. smells like an ice cream Sunday it's. Pleasant it is very pleasant but it's. not doing the job like I'm still I'm a. little tired a little groggy you know I. had a four shot latte earlier oh yeah. and so I'm kind of gotcha maybe that's. what I need I'm Zippy you go downstairs. to I know you don't like to pay for. coffee but yeah go downstairs to Spiller. Park okay hu atcheson's place a four. shot latte yes okay okay that that has.

me going well I give it about a half. hour before choke crashes everybody yeah. seriously anyway I'm glad to be back. well I'm glad you're back too you I've. been here the whole time. waiting this is where you spent. Christmas and New Year's yes both in. this room and Thanksgiving and uh I. guess Yumi and Momo slept over there in. the corner they come to visit sometimes. they say please please come on please. stop working I say I can't they Slide. the food tray through the slot.

um you know where I got this idea and I. know you haven't watched it but the. Watchmen I came across mention of that I. was like why is everybody talking about. the Watchman with the Tulsa race riot or. more appropriately why is everyone all. of a sudden talking about the Tulsa. Massacre yeah yeah uh because the. Watchmen really put it on the map in a. big way yeah that's great uh utilize it. quite well in the story line and uh I. have a recommendation for everyone even. though it is a marketing piece uh.

there's a thing in the Atlantic called. the massacre of Black Wall Street MH. paid for by HBO but it's a uh it tells. the story in comic book form in the. Atlantic uhhuh it's very cool very cool. and I didn't notice it was a marketing. piece until afterward but like oh well. it's still good sure as long as the. content's good yeah it's cool and very. well done so. um this is like it's great that the. Watchmen has brought attention to this. yeah.

because it wasn't until about 2001 maybe. the late 90s really that people started. talking about this I know and this this. event that we're going to talk about. happened in 1921 yeah and almost the the. week after basically the week after. everyone said don't talk about this yeah. just forget it ever happened we're just. moving forward and we're going to bury. the past literally it buried people the. evidence all the stuff it was buried and.

people just acted like nothing happened. in Tulsa Oklahoma for like 80 years and. when you hear what we're about to talk. about it's astounding that the community. both black and white agreed to just. basically Pretend This Never Happened at. least publicly or civically yeah and um. it's hard to find some of the some. information still on some of the key. events and definitely some of the key. players CU a lot of them died of old age. without ever having been inter yeah no.

follow-ups uh like I mean we'll get to. it but a couple of the most key players. is like this is kind of all we know. right I looked them up too and I was. like what do you mean you have no idea. even who this this guy was let alone you. know what became of him or what what do. you mean like you just no one kept track. but that's how complete and total this. cover up was it was a cover up yeah so. let's talk about it first let's talk. about Greenwood which I was not familiar. with but Greenwood was a an affluent I.

guess almost suburb adjacent to Tulsa. just north of Tulsa and what was odd. about the fact that it was a fluent is. that it was an all black community in. you know the turn of the last century. and yet it was one of the most affluent. communities in the entire United States. yeah I mean now it's just part of Tulsa. like a neighborhood but back then just. sort of like my neighborhood would have. been a suburb of Atlanta in the 1920s. even though I'm you know 5 miles from.

downtown right exactly but uh in 1921 it. was like you said super affluent uh they. had uh a lot of I think there were. 10,000 black residents there it's called. The Black Wall Street like I mentioned. yeah and 600 businesses there were 15. African-American. millionaires living in this District. yeah 15 black millionaires in 1921 in. Tulsa Oklahoma yeah and it and it wasn't. I mean like the whole whole area was.

very well to do there was like indoor. plumbing the public schools there were. like topnotch and in many cases. Greenwood had a lot to boast about that. like the white areas in Tulsa just over. the railroad tracks literally on the. other side of the tracks um didn't have. like that like this is far better off. than some parts of white Tulsa yeah. including uh one of the top. African-American surgeons if not the.

in the country endorsed by the the Dr. Mayo himself the Mayo brothers yeah this. guy's Dr AC Jackson and he was one of. the people murdered in this massacre. yeah yeah I was going to say it was a. spoiler but I guess we've already kind. of mentioned there's a massacre coming. right yeah so um just to take a step. back even further so it's a pretty. impressive to think of like this is the. Jim Crow era United States yes this is. we're talking about you know the the.

this massacre took place in. 1921 that's you know 50 years after the. end of the Civil War um in in many ways. the Jim Crow era was just as bad as the. annabellum slavery era but so the idea. to us today looking back at this time of. well there's a black community um in. Oklahoma that was one of the most. affluent areas in the country it's kind. of mindboggling but if you dig even. deeper into how it was formed it it.

almost you develop like a sense of pride. in this that these these these people. came together under these conditions and. not only like survived but like thrived. and created carved out a place for. themselves where like being black was. celebrated and where you could be proud. and you took pride in your home in in. your children in your children's. education and the healthcare that they. were getting in the bus service and the. quality of the theater that you went to. um The Confectionary the the soda.

fountain like that's where you went to. go like propose marriage like there was. this incredibly developed community and. the the one of the ways that it was that. it was able to flourish it was able to. kind of grow like this is because the. first thing that that Oklahoma did when. it became a state remember it was. originally a territory for forc. relocation of Native Americans and their. African slaves to this area um when it. became a state when white settlers came.

in and said no we want this instead. we're going to take this territory we. gave you away and turn into State the. first piece of legislation they passed. was that um black people have to stay in. their own area they can't marry outside. their race they can't frequent white. owned businesses they have to stay over. here and so the people of Greenwood said. fine with us we're going to pass a. covenant that says you have to be a. black person to own land here or to even. rent a place here yeah to own a business.

here there's a it's a covenant. restricted community and we're going to. take a tremendous amount of pride and in. circulating our currency our hard-earned. money that we're making by working for. these white businesses that we're not. allowed to patronize right we're going. to go make our own businesses over here. yeah and we're going to support them. with our with our community not only. because we can't spend our money. elsewhere but because we have a lot of. pride in the businesses that we've built. over here and so in this way Greenwood.

flourished because of and in spite of. these Jim Crow era laws that that black. people had to deal with in in Oklahoma. at the time yeah and this was uh Dave. ruse helped put us uh put this together. and uh some of the research he got was. from the book The Burning colon Massacre. destruction and the Tulsa Race ride of. 1921 by Tim Madigan uh and very astutely. points out that this was uh this. happened in Oklahoma of course but this. kind of thing was was happening all over.

the country um not just in the South or. the whatever you call Oklahoma I guess. it's the west midwest yeah but not. Midwest I don't know I think you just. call it Oklahoma it's interesting some. people there identify with the South but. if you're from Georgia Oklahoma it's not. the South might as well be you know. Montana I think of Oklahoma is like. Native America yeah is that what it says. on the license plate maybe it says. middle of the country with a o with a. little apostrophe right and there's a.

picture of the mountain de. loo but um this was happening everywhere. there were in 1919 there were two dozen. race riots um in places like Chicago. Washington DC St Louis uh and between. the end of the Civil War and World War. II there were more than 4,000 lynchings. in the United States right which is uh. you know it's important to point that. out because what and we'll get into the. story here but a lynching what was uh.

the aim of the white people of Oklahoma. on this night right but I have seen also. one of the reasons why I went to so much. um lengths to explain Greenwood yeah in. part was to because to to show what was. lost here but also to show um there's a. there are a lot of people who consider. this massacre to have been carried out. or fueled in part by Envy right uh. because the people of Grio were so much. better off in some instances than the.

white people who were you know carrying. out this massacre all right maybe we. should take a break no and then we'll. come back oh man we got to start 2020. with an argument yeah over a break yeah. let's do it all right let's take a break. we'll come back and talk a little bit. about uh the beginnings of what would. end up being the Tulsa Massacre. [Music].

all right so we should talk about uh the. key player here or players uh and in. this case it is Diamond dick Roland one. of the greatest names I've ever heard in. my life it's pretty good yeah he was a. Sho shine boy uh in Tulsa and by all. accounts he was uh smart and he was a.

handsome young guy and he was uh sort of. a man about town he was popular with the. ladies had the World on a String yeah. pretty much and uh there was a girl. named Sarah pagee who ran an elevator at. the Drexel building uh a building that I. have walked past with my own two feet oh. wow right and she was white she was. white and uh you know dick thought she. was cute and he would go down there and. basically kind of make up excuses to to. ride her elevator okay I saw something.

different than that oh yeah mhm I saw. that he was on the elevator because he. was he could use the um segregated. bathroom on the top floor of the Drexel. building only so he had to ride up the. elevator up and down okay to to get to. the bathroom the closest bathroom for. him to be able to use that's what I saw. so you're saying he didn't fancy Sarah. page at all I don't know I don't know. but I also saw a different explanation. for why he would have been on the. elevator as often as he supposedly was. all right maybe it was both yeah maybe.

he went to the bathroom a little more. often than he had to because he did. think Sarah page was cute who knows I'm. not saying they necessarily contradict. each other I'm just saying I've seen. other explanations as well I got you. that that sounded very lawyerly for some. reason didn't it man maybe this is uh. the New Year in 2020 Matlock Josh Clark. Esquire yeah. apree that's different than Esquire so. uh at any rate we should probably also. point out that um and you know uh mixed.

race couples still get sideways looks in. some parts of America today but. certainly in 1921 in Tulsa Oklahoma uh. the idea of a black man uh fancing a. white woman was even looking at a white. woman yeah was not only um unted but. like a threat worthy of a lynching right. it was still that time in America where. um if you made any advances that was. sort of the biggest fear for some white. men was black men coming in and taking. quote unquote their women yeah um which.

was character or popularized thanks to. Birth of a Nation which depicts the clan. you know coming to the aid of white. women who were about to be raped by. maniacal black men who just couldn't. couldn't help themselves they were just. so uh in love with white women that they. they just had to rape that was just what. black guys did that was the view of. black guys at the time yeah right that. that's just how it was so to white. people um you like you you kept an eye.

out for that like when you saw a black. man and there's a white woman over there. you wanted to make sure that he wasn't. going to you know rape her yeah that was. the mentality that people were walking. around with back then yeah that movie. was actually partially shot in my old. neighborhood in La you have a lot to do. with this episode well it's just weird. to think about Birth of a Nation uh you. know being shot in Los felus which is. this very like kind of hip community and. on the east side of Hollywood sure uh. but anyway on May uh 30th 1921 uh dick.

Roland went into that elevator to either. flirt or use the restroom or both yeah. and what I saw was that the it was well. known that the third floor um Landing. did not land flush with the threshold. and uh supposedly this is why as The. Story Goes dick Roland tripped when he. was getting onto the elevator yeah so. maybe if that bathroom was on the third. floor that could make sense I heard top. floor I don't know how many floors the D.

I don't remember actually is it more. than three I don't know I don't remember. actually I just I don't think they call. a building the something building if it. only has three floors you know what I. mean you're probably right that's like a. eight plus. floor like moniker I think you're. probably right but at any rate uh he. gets on the elevator as The Story Goes. uh stumbles getting on and kind of Falls. forward and grabs her arm MH uh which. was kind of the first thing that he. could get a hold of to keep from falling.

right uh as The Story Goes she started. beating him over the head with her purse. because I guess it's an old uh Looney. Tunes cartoon right and she didn't have. a rolling pin sure and uh the elevator. opened on the ground floor uh people see. this sort of scuffle going on or what. appears to be a scuffle uh she EV. allegedly cries out that she had been. assaulted and people on the first floor. call the police as dick flees on Foot. Right just take takes off yeah and you.

know no one knows exactly how this all. went down no one even knows exactly who. Diamond dick rollan was or Sarah pagee. yeah for that matter all bizarre yeah. all we found out what was that she was. an orphan uh she could have been as. young as 16 I've seen reports of 17 and. was working to pay her way through. business college and uh that's what the. the Tulsa Tribune reported like the day. after yeah and I saw that elsewhere but. I also saw like literally really nothing. else about her I couldn't find anything.

and then dick Roland they think that he. might have possibly been named Jimmy. Jones right I saw that too and who was. raised um by his grandparents whose last. name was Roland so he took their name. and there is a guy who would have. matched his birth date named Jimmy Jones. that they found buried in in Tulsa but. he died like two months before these. events took place so it couldn't have. possibly been him yeah and they were a. few years apart too I think right oh was. it yeah okay but it's it's unbelievable. that so much of this is lost to history.

yeah these two people who set off this. one of the one of the most despicable. events that it's ever taken place in. this country's history just vanish. almost after this point it's just you. you guys played Your Role now everyone. else is going to step in so dick goes. home um his mom he I guess he tells his. mom what happened and she obviously was. pretty scared right away cuz she knew. probably what this meant but for that. night at least nothing really happened.

um the next day he goes out to meet up. with some friends and the Tulsa Police. pull up and uh take him in basically on. an assault charge right which is I don't. know why they didn't go pick him up at. home or whatever but they I also read. somewhere that they had arrested him on. the spot but the what you're you're. recounting matches what I've seen most. elsewhere right yeah but that's that's. history especially suppressed history. right one person writes and then. somebody else report reports and then. yeah enough people report it and then.

that's fact exactly that's the story um. but so either way he came into police. custody we know that is the way it is. and then this is like a white Sheriff. named William Sullivan I think right uh. William McCulla Mulla I was very close. yeah when you're starting to read the. story you hear about this you know white. mustache sheriff and immediately think. oh boy right this guy's in trouble well. this guy had replaced the last guy that. who was trouble right who had allowed um.

a white mob to take an arrested black. man out of his custody and and Lynch him. oh it says here was a white uh person is. that not true I think that's wrong oh. okay either way he let somebody be. lynched by an angry mob yeah which I. thought for sure Sheriff McCulla was. going to do but apparently McCulla was. intent on kind of going by the book he. followed the hect Tate School of. sheriffing I don't even know what that. from uh from to Killa Mocking Bird oh.

right right which was hey let's let the. law play out let's give him his day in. court there will be no lynchings on my. watch right so he took um he took. Diamond dick up to a room on the Upper. Floor the only way to get there was this. one staircase so he basically. strategically hit him out went down to. this white crowd and said there's not. going to be any lynching today like. Chuck said the thing is we've left out a. really important Point here yeah like. why was there a white crowd to begin.

with right yeah there is a newspaper. that was called the Tulsa Tribune that. um ran an article about Sarah page being. assaulted this is a news article and the. headline for said news article was NAB. negro for attacking girl in elevator not. people might NAB negro for attacking. girl in elevator police worried white MO. might na it's NAB like go do this yes.

that was the headline for the article. the editorial took it even a step. further and this is the day after this. event took place yeah the editorial was. to Lynch negro. tonight and I got to say whoever's. writing these headlines it's. inflammatory of course but they also. don't make much sense oh yeah they're of. poor construction they're very poor. construction and I went to try and find. the the micro film of this and and um I. think the first one is available but.

blurry the second one the only copy of. that paper they have is a uh front page. with an article cut out that's scanned. in and everyone's like it must this must. have been that editorial but I I. literally couldn't find any you know CU. I was kind of curious to read just how. poor of a writer this person was right. and get you know probably what would not. have been accurate details no no so so. no they I mean they basically um.

reported in the first one in the actual. article um that her her to her clothes. have been torn at yeah they they really. characterize it like he attacked her. like a sexual assault right exactly um. and then the second one is just. basically like an allout editorial. calling for dick Roland's lynching yeah. this is in the paper so the the local. newspaper has inflamed the um the white. citizenry into basically calling them to. action to go do something about this and.

they all show up at the courthouse um to. to demand that sheriff Mulla hand over. dick Roland to them so they can go Lynch. him and he says yeah no back off no but. so. before but I think he tells them like no. I'm not I'm not doing that like he said. but um before the crowd disperses a. second group comes and it's actually a. group of World War I veterans from. Greenwood who had found out that that.

that this white mob was going to Lynch. dick Roland and they were like no no. they're not we're going to go see to it. that doesn't happen yeah I mean there. were hundreds of uh WW1 veterans black. veterans in Greenwood um they were. people who fought for this country and. it's sort of that familiar despicable. story shed blood on European soil come. back home to America and you're still a. second class citizen uh they had. petitioned to uh and this is just sort. of a sidebar they had petitioned to uh.

walk in the Memorial Day Parade uh for. many years and were always refused and. May 30th was Memorial day and that that. same year they had once again said can. we participate in the Memorial Day. Parade as veterans they say no we're. only going to honor the white veterans. no I think they they wanted to be. integrated in the parade with the white. veterans just as World War I veterans. marching together and they said no. whites only you can march by yourselves. oh really and when they did March they. taunted and jeered at oh gotcha by the.

people who are watching the parade so. these are the people that got guns and. came down there and said not on our. watch we're not going to let this happen. uh and it kind of plays out as a film. you know from the sounds of it is like. these cars pull in and part the crowd. and uh these black veterans get out with. their guns and are like no you're not. taking this this kid this is not going. to happen right so um apparently Sheriff. McCulla. was able to to convince the Greenwood.

World War I veterans who showed up that. he wasn't going to hand over dick roll. and that he's going to protect dick roll. and then they should probably just go. he's going to get rid of this white. crowd too but don't worry I'm I'm not. like the old Sheriff yeah and um there's. about 75 armed men yeah and I to drive. at home like how many people I read that. there were I saw thousands somewhere of. white people of white people at the. courthouse like it was just this calling.

for a lynching yeah it was it was they. were heavily outmanned yeah um and but. and but 75 these 75 black veterans. showed up in the midst of this let's. even say it's just a thousand let's even. say it's like 500 people calling for a. lynching yeah and you're 75 black men. showing up armed saying like no it's not. happening just pretty courageous stuff. right yeah so be before they can leave. or as they're leaving it's actually not. clear what what this event's name gets.

its name from happens what you would. call a race riot yeah I mean it it. looked like it might have been on the. way to being a uh a scene that the. sheriff managed successfully they might. have been on the way out that white. crowd might have dispersed if not for. this one incident and even even if we. did know you know just beat by beat the. history of this you still wouldn't be. able to say what would have happened but. that is a possible outcome um there was. a there was a um an older white man who.

demanded that one of these um black. veterans give him his gun and the black. veteran said no I'm not going to do that. and the old white man went to go grab it. and the gun went off and both sides just. started shooting at one another yeah. that's what triggered it uh it was uh. chaos it was a hail of bullets uh people. of on both sides just started you know. dropping dead from uh from the bullets. flying and it became a full-on war scene.

basically for the next couple of days. right okay so at that point um the the. black veterans are like we really should. get out of here yeah they leave toward. Greenwood toward Greenwood which is. their home they're going back to their. homes um and along the way some of them. like kind of drop back and like stake. out positions yeah and start sniping at. the um the white riers who are coming.

after them and at that point um they. they go further back into Greenwood and. by this time it's like the early morning. hours of I believe June 1st right uh I. don't think it was the early morning at. that point yeah oh it was like midnight. I mean like midnight one something like. that yeah yeah it's during the night. time and this is when the white people. started breaking into the hardware. stores and looting businesses to get. weapons yeah because here's the thing so. that sheriff Mulla who you're kind of. like oh okay as far as like this whole.

story goes that's not so bad like he he. at least tried now the moment this race. riot happened and the um black veterans. took off back for Greenwood he started. deputizing white riers yeah handing out. guns and ammunition and basically saying. go get them go get those guys yeah and. rather than saying like this is not your. job this is my responsibility y'all go. home I'm going to go handle this he. enlisted the help of these people who. were involved in this Riot on the white.

side yeah and at that point any. semblance of what you would call a race. riot ended and what became a a um. Revenge Massacre yeah uh just started so. so people call this the Tulsa race riot. and I think maybe a tenth of it. qualifies as a race riot and the rest it. just should be called the Tulsa Massacre. yeah so what happens is like you said. some of these veterans get uh staked out. in strategic positions um uh on rooftops.

and behind houses behind cars uh the the. white uh Army for lack of a better word. is advancing into Greenwood they start. setting fires uh at these strategic. locations to flush out these snipers and. then they just start burning everything. basically right uh setting fire to every. house and every business to burn down. Greenwood well I think also about for. about the five or about four 5 hours. from the time where they managed to.

flush the snipers out until about 5: in. the morning they were quietly taking up. positions inside Greenwood and then a. whistle blew at about 500 a.m. and all. of them just came out from their. positions and then they just went. berserk it was a charge a fullon like. military charge coordinated assault on. Greenwood and so this assault involved. driving people out of their homes at. gunpoint any resistance people were shot. on site apparently there were people who.

were shot who weren't offering. resistance um there was a story about an. elderly couple who were kneeling in. their house praying and they were both. executed by these white Mobsters yeah um. in their homes people were burned alive. yeah uh houses and people doused with. kerosene and burned alive right uh there. was another story of a a blind uh beggar. who was tied to a car and dragged. through the streets I mean it was it was. just bedum and the Watchman actually. gets pretty graphic in how they depict.

this even though it's an alternate. history show just like the movie in the. in the graphic novel War they I think. they did pretty decent Justice they. didn't follow the origin story of how it. started but uh it just plays heavily. into the plot line right yeah yeah. should we take another break sure all. right let's take another break and uh. we'll tell you what happened from here. [Music].

okay so uh we actually took a commercial. break in the midst of a massacre so the. the the thing is like people are being. driven out of their houses and shot in. some cases but more often than not. they're being like like just flushed out. but no house no building no business no.

nothing was spared there the intent of. these um these white terrorists there's. really no other name for them was to. burn down Greenwood yeah the. firefighters were kept at Bay yeah they. said do not come in here like the the. the riers will kill you yeah you just. stay away they burned Greenwood to the. ground 35 blocks 35 blocks do you know. how many blocks that is a lot of blocks.

think about how many blocks is 35 blocks. and then add like 10 because I guarantee. your conception is less than actually 35. blocks that is a lot of blocks of. buildings burned to the ground people. killed in their front yards including uh. Dr Andrew C Jackson the the famous. surgeon shot like a dog in his own front. yard in the chest there's a picture of. him 1 12200 homes uh churches schools. Hospital Library uh I think I mentioned. there were 600 businesses total right. they were all torched just torched there.

were six people who owned airplanes they. were that wealthy in Greenwood yeah. their airplanes were stolen by the riers. and used to drop bombs Dynamite. nitroglycerin fire and then there was. also accusations that the National Guard. was helping coordinate this too yeah the. National Guard was called in uh and when. they got there by all accounts they did. not try and help quell the riot they. more acted as uh helping to arrest black. men MH um well that's just historical.

fact oh yeah they were they were. bringing in I mean they were killing. people for sure but they were also. arresting black men the women and. children uh fled uh I think 6,000 people. were arrested and the women and children. fled toward the woods basically right. like leaving behind everything they. owned who were homeless there was there. was 10,000 people who lived in Greenwood. at the time and after this one night. this orgy like violence there there um.

there were like 9,000 left homeless and. hundreds dead yeah and apparently back. to the uh National Guard they said that. they brought in Planes just to spot. fires and coordinate ground security but. there are reports from people there uh. that said that no they were actually. shooting at people right on the ground. say that that's a rumor yeah even. setting that aside the National Guard. didn't come in and quell anything they. just started arresting and detaining the. victims of this massacre that was the.

role that they played in this in this. situation that's right so uh the whole. thing culminates with um I mean in the. end it's really hard to get the amount. of people killed I think the official. report says 35 black people it it's. certainly way more than that I've seen. all the way up to 300 that's that's what. I saw is almost across the board is 300. yeah that again might be one of those. things that everyone just sort of. settled on a on a number but it was not. 35 people to be sure no definitely not.

and so like as the the sun comes up the. day after I think June. 1st um Greenwoods burned to the ground. there's people hiding in the woods. thousands and thousands of former. affluent residents of this black. community homeless are now homeless well. no they're not homeless because the. National Guards very kindly put them in. detention centers at the fairgrounds. there that doesn't qualify as home right. that's my point yeah is that it's not a.

home right they're kept. detained at the fairgrounds for months I. saw that in some cases most of them had. to um endure the winter this happened in. May yeah these people were still a lot. of them kept in detention camps at the. fairgrounds through the winter yeah. Tulsa Winters and summers are both tough. they were kept in detention camps. because white riers burn their town to. the ground yeah and this was in June so. right did the math right so um yeah it. was June I guess it was the end of May.

so um the way that you got out of these. detention centers was your white. employer came and vouched for you and. said this person works for me I need him. back yeah please let him go that's how. you got out yeah so in the aftermath no. one was arrested there were no. prosecutions no no I'm sorry Chuck there. was a grand jury that was sat or. convened they indicted 20 people all of. them were black well none were white. yeah that's I meant on the white side. okay uh there were in today's dollars. between 50 And1 million do worth of.

damage um everywhere I look said the. only organization that really helped and. they really helped was the American Red. Cross yeah uh super Brave and did a. whole lot and I also saw where um you. know it wasn't the entire city of Tulsa. apparently there were some white. communities that reached out in the. aftermath of course to help with the. recovery efforts to take people in yeah. um so we don't want to paint the entire. town uh. as doing the wrong thing apparently some.

people did Step Up sure I mean just. nothing is that literally black and. white yeah you know like there's always. Shades of Gray in that situ in any. situation yeah but Greenwood uh came. back they it's probably not a surprise. but uh the insurance companies had it. classified very quickly as a riot. instead of just a violent Massacre. because that mean they wouldn't have to. compensate people for their homes being. and businesses being burned to the. ground right because if they were. rioting then they were culpable for that.

damage and the insurance company just. despicable yeah so also despicable the. County Commission said no we're not. accepting any outside donations we'll. take care of our own and then didn't. didn't follow through on that at all so. there were no funds paid to the. Greenwood people and people were trying. to right as reparations or to even help. them rebuild um and the County. Commission I guess proposed at one point. that they would handle this by buying. the land for like a fraction of its.

market value and then auctioning it off. to the highest bidder that was one. proposal that old that old scam and they. also said well you know what just to. make sure that this doesn't happen again. we're going to establish a new building. code for Greenwood no building can be. rebuilt unless it's built with fireproof. bricks and then they went to the. fireproof brick producers and said do. not sell any materials to the black. people of Greenwood so despite this. managed to rebuild in about 5 years.

astoundingly the people whose houses in. town was burned to the ground came back. and rebuilt and from just about. everything I read Greenwood was actually. better more prosperous and more affluent. from the the second time around than it. was even the first and it was pretty. affluent the first time and Chuck we. said like hundreds of people were were. killed right yes so get this funerals. were forbidden like you weren't allowed. to have a funeral that's how how how.

covered up this thing became yeah and. one of the reasons we'll never know how. many people were killed is because the. the people who were killed were taken. off and dumped in the river or stashed. in coal mines or buried in Mass unmarked. Graves well they think they found two of. those uh like a month ago yeah uh there. archaeologists in Tulsa and this was. from Time Magazine from Jasmine Aguilera. uh they have identified two sites that. they thought were that they think now.

are mass Graves and they've been looking. since uh I think 2001 because they knew. people you know there were reports of. mass Graves and so archaeologists have. been looking and in. 2018 um they started like a legit. investigation uh and they think that. they have found one at least one maybe. two of these sites but even like which. is in a cemetery ironically yeah I saw. that but even this whole thing is like. fairly new it wasn't like until the late.

90s that people even started talking. about this right yeah 1997 was when the. state of Oklahoma introduced a bill and. this was after just not talking about it. no in the black community they would. talk about it in stories and Whispers uh. the white Community just buried it and. the state of Oklahoma just didn't. acknowledge it yeah the last thing I saw. about it was the Tulsa Tribune ran. another editorial on like June 4th a few. days after basically saying like Ling. fail thank you no they said thank you to.

the police and all the white citizens. who cleaned up Tulsa by getting rid of. green one it was it's actually way worse. than what I just depicted but I couldn't. possibly bring myself to to read it. verbatim yeah it's just vile yeah what. it says it's really bad uh but in 97 is. when they introduced a bill for uh. reparations and creation of the Tulsa. race riot commission and that report was. released in. 2001 and it did hold police and public.

officials to blame um but it didn't do. anything basically there were no. reparations yeah uh as for dick Roland. the case was the actual case remember. the case of the assault that was. dismissed in September apparently Sarah. page didn't want to press forward with. charges and she's lost the time he. supposedly immediately moved to Kansas. City maybe and no one else really knows. anything else about him huh that's just. so surprising yeah you know and if not.

for the Watchmen coming out this might. still be a fairly buried story outside. of Oklahoma yeah right it's really. brought a lot of attention to it yeah. and good for them for doing that yeah um. so one of the things I saw about. Greenwood itself was that it kept. prospering and flourishing for decades. after this until about the 60s and um. one of the reasons I saw that explained. why not just Greenwood but a lot of. black areas started to decline in the. 60s was a byproduct of integration was.

that you could as a black person in. America spend your black dollar at a. white own business now right and like. they don't they didn't teach us that in. public school like that this was a. byproduct of it but as a result these. these um blackowned businesses started. to decline more and more and more um and. so Greenwood wasn't as prosperous as it. was before but the death blow the death. blow is that remember in our interstates. episode where in a lot of the um poor. areas a lot of the um areas of color.

that that's where they built the. highways I saw that they built. i44 right through Greenwood yeah Tulsa. is an interesting place I've spent a few. weeks there yeah a few years ago yeah. and it's uh it's interesting because. it's got this old oil money yeah. neighborhoods yeah some of the most like. amazing Estates and houses I've ever. seen mhm it's got some very poor. communities uh a lot of meth problems.

yeah uh it's an interesting place sounds. like it. yeah well that's a Tulsa for you and you. know what I spent a few weeks there in. this neighborhood and I didn't know. anything about it I didn't maybe there. is a memorial or something but I didn't. notice it I'm not saying there isn't one. but I didn't see it so you know um uh. Desmond Tutu sure who helped bring about. um just this the change over from. apartheid to reconciliation I love his. work he came yeah big fan he came to uh. to Tulsa basically said you guys are.

sitting on a powder cake here like when. was this not very long ago I think maybe. in the '90s um maybe even in the 2000s. just basically saying like you can't how. could you possibly heal when you still. have bodies in onmark Graves and like no. one's talking about this still I believe. there is a park that they found like a. Reconciliation Park or something like. that but it sounds like there's still. ways to go yeah wouldn't it be ironic. that it was Watchmen that basically is. forcing this issue to be discussed be.

pretty ironic yeah the power of comic. books right well not even TV I guess of. graphic novels yes so uh if you want to. know more about the Tulsa Massacre also. known as the Tulsa race riot of 1921. there's a lot for you to go read. thankfully and you should uh just type. that into your favorite search bar since. I said that it's time for listener. mail uh hey guys this email is mostly. for Chuck I need to get something off my. chest and clear some things up about my.

involvement with your pronunciation of. Carrie elwise Elis Elvis sometime over. the summer I made a comment in the. corrections Corner thread of movie Crush. uh on the Facebook page where you were. pronouncing Carrie elwise elwise I. posted I had read on a Reddit AMA his. name sounds like Elvis but what I meant. to say was it rhymes with. Elvis is that why you said Carrie Elvis. like on the yeah it's cuz Eli uh where. to go Eli he says this when I finally.

heard my name pop up in the podcast I. was thrilled and couldn't wait to hear. your reaction not only did my comment. get understandably misunderstood but. I've heard you reference the comment two. or three times now and continue to. correct yourself saying Elvis most. recently on the Andre the Giant live. episode parenthetical Josh said it right. uh I tried to issue another I tried to. issue another comment immediately. afterward to clear the air but it was. too late you discontinued need. Corrections corner I did I was going to.

do that on movie Crush and it just. became like you said this wrong and your. inflection and I'm was like you said. Kubrick was great he was very great yeah. I was ad minute his like movie. corrections but you know how it goes so. I just said no more of this um you don't. understand how something like this uh. something this small has been tearing me. apart inside every time I hear you. reference it there's one thing worse. than giving someone bad information it's. having them proliferate that information. out in the world in this case to. millions of well not millions of people. trillions I just want to apologize.

officially for correcting you on. something so silly and any way you want. to say the name is fine by me as long as. it's what do you say El Elis Elis I. think Elis uh thanks for the decade I. don't know now Eli's gotten in my head. too thanks for the decade of great. content I'll see you both in January in. Seattle for my third live show nice all. the best Eli it's Eli's thirdd live show. birthday and I think it's pronounced. Elli oh it could be Ellie could be yeah. we're just going to go with Eli though.

okay I think Ellie's e i e it could be I. think Ellie Golding is something. different than that isn't it I don't. know who is that or does she pronounce. her name Eli I don't know who that is. you do too you've heard her pop songs. before when you're working out okay uh. if you want to get in touch with us like. Eli did uh to let us know we're saying. something wrong because of you well you. can get in touch with this by going on. to stuffy know.com. and you can also send us an email send. it off to stuff podcast iheartradio.com.

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