Selects: The Truth Behind Cage-Free and Free-Range | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everyone, it's me Josh and for this. week's select, I've chosen our episode. on free range and cage-free. What do. they mean? Do they mean anything? Turns. out they do mean something, but not what. you'd think. This is starting to get. kind of tough to follow, so I say just. listen to the episode, but this one. changed my mind about a lot of stuff, and I hope it opens your eyes, too. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck. And it's just. something is going on with Chuck. I'm. okay so far. Uh but Jerry's not here. because she turned into the chicken lady. and is in treatment for that, >> right? doing the chicken dance. >> Do you remember the chicken lady from. Kids in the Hall? >> Oh, sure. I was referencing uh.

>> Arrested Arrested Development. >> Yeah, but you're uh you're taking it. back even further to the great great. Kids in the Hall. >> That's right. I can just sit here and. quote Kids in the Hall oneliners all. day. >> Yeah, I love those guys. >> So, uh that's not what we're here to do. though, Chuck. Settle down. Settle down. We're we're going away from the kids in. the hall. >> Yes. And since you mentioned that, uh. what we're also not here to do is shame. anybody.

>> or make anyone feel bad or to tell. anyone how to live their life and eat. their breakfast. But we're here to arm you with. information on this one about uh and I'm. not surprised you picked this one, but I. just thought since I had a somewhat. scarring experience. >> in the commercial chicken farming. industry as a job. >> for sure. Uh, for those of you listening. that don't know this, one of my last. real person jobs before this job many. years ago was I worked for a software.

company that designed software for. commercial chicken uh, operations. >> Mhm. >> To better track how they lay eggs and. how they gain weight and how you're. feeding them and kind of everything, how. they're killed. Uh, and I hated that. job. It was soul killing and I never. understood it. I never invested in it. and as far as understanding the software. and I was in tech support and so I was. terrible at it. But my friends ran the. company and eventually they fired me. because I was so bad at it.

>> Wow. >> And that's the best thing that ever. happened to me because that led directly. to getting this job. >> It's like uh Gar Brooks said, "Some of. God's greatest gifts are unanswered. prayers.". >> All right. Sure. You know, maybe your. prayer to be good at your chicken. killing software job was unanswered and. instead an even better prayer that you. didn't even know you had was answered. >> Yeah, I didn't have that prayer. I. didn't want to be good at that job. >> But yeah, so this is like all this is.

probably pretty well known to you. because this this is we've been doing. this kind of stuff to chickens for a. good 70 years by now, right? >> Yeah. you know, the you know, we're. going to talk some about factory farming. finally. We've uh I don't think we've. dodged it, but people have, you know, long said, "Hey guys, can you get into. this?" And, you know, we're not touching. cattle or swine. We're just starting. dipping our toe into it with poultry. >> Dipping our beaks. >> Dipping our beaks. Our untrimmed beaks.

>> Yeah. I can peck you till the cows come. home, which is something that happens on. the farm. >> That's right. So, let's enough dancing. around, Chuck. Um, we're talking about. today not not necessarily factory. farming, although like you said, we have. to talk about it. We're going to talk. about those labels that you see on your. eggs or on your chicken, usually. cage-free or um free range or something. along those lines and whether it means.

anything. But one of the great successes. of the last probably five, six, maybe. even 10 years or longer um came very. quietly out of the effective altruism. community. Chuck. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. A group of effective altruists. said, you know, we're always looking to. maximize our charitable contributions. >> There's a lot of chickens out there that. are not being treated very well. Supposedly, there's 7.6 6 billion egg.

laying hens alone worldwide, okay, at. any given time, almost 8 billion. So if. you could improve the lives of them even. by a little bit, >> you would really be reducing a massive. amount of suffering. So they got $3. million together and like um laser. focused it on advocacy, lobbying, getting legislation put through and then. most of all pressuring really really big. companies. They went after some whales. um to to commit to going 100% cage-free.

eggs within a very short period of time. Sometimes 2024, sometimes 2030. Um, but. all of these huge companies, everybody. from Danon to Burger King to McDonald's. to Whole Foods, not surprisingly, but. also like Dollar General, all of them. have signed a pledge that says all of. the eggs that our customers buy, whether. it's in prepared food or eggs you buy in. the store, are going to be 100%. cage-free eggs within the next few.

years. And they did it with like $3. million in and a lot of elbow grease. >> I love it. I think all those companies. probably said, "All right, all right. If. there Gez, if there cage free eggs out. there, we'll use them. Stop hassling. me.". >> Yeah, that's what the Burger King said. >> Yeah, the guy in that big uh. >> big costume. >> He said it with his mind, >> right? Yeah, cuz his mouth doesn't move. >> But it was a big deal. I mean, the fact. that they got that that that that's. happening. It's a big deal. And one,

it's one of those things where um if you. scratch beneath the surface, it's not an. intended pun, but if you scratch beneath. the surface at a lot of these terms and. phrases that the USDA likes to bandandy. about, things like cage-free and things. like free range and stuff like that, it's often really disappointing. But. that's one of the things about cage-free. is that it it is an actual substantial. increase in the welfare and quality of. life for egg laying chickens in the in.

the United States. It's a big big deal. And it's not that they're they're. they're in these amazing conditions all. of a sudden with cage-free. It's that. they're in such poor conditions. otherwise that this is a huge. improvement for them. >> Yeah. And and I think you know a lot of. people will agree even cage-free isn't. all it's cracked up to be. >> Mhm. >> Um but. >> there's a lot of like chickenbased. idioms that we use that are suddenly. coming to the four. I hadn't noticed.

>> uh when I worked with that company they. made everybody at one point even if you. didn't do like project management where. you had to go to the farms they made us. all go to the farms and tech support at. one point. >> And I know I've told the story before. but it was a pretty awful experience. Uh, and it smells really, really bad. It. smells so bad that me and my one friend. uh that I worked with, Barry, um, wore. like did sort of the silence of the. lamb's trick with dabbing some, >> uh, like menthol on our upper lip under.

our nostrils. >> Mhm. >> Just so we could walk through these. things. Uh, and it, you know, I think. they thought it would benefit us sort of. just see boots on the ground. What. happened? I was like, it it I appreciate. the field trip, but it did not benefit. me in any way except hearing things. like, "Oh man, cage or uh free range. just means there's a door open. They. don't even use it." And I heard this. back then. I was like, "Oh my gosh, is. that true?" And as it turns out, as. we'll see, that's kind of true. >> Yeah. And we shouldn't confuse free.

range with cage-free. They're two. different things. We'll describe them. both, but yeah. >> Yeah. So, cage free is a huge. improvement. free range is as bad as. you'd expect it to be bas because it's. coming from the USDA. >> Yeah. So, I guess let's talk about um. let's briefly and big thanks to Dave uh. Ruse for helping us out with this one, but uh Dave starts out with a little bit. of history and I think it's a good place. to start because you don't have to look. very far back in this country. Uh, it. seems like a long time ago, but the. 1940s isn't that long ago in the in the.

lifespan of America. And back then, >> they were still like feeding America. their eggs uh or its eggs. I don't even. know what America is. Um, with backyard. chickens basically. Um, they were big. farms of course, but they weren't like. these big massive battery cages that we. see today. They were hens living. outdoors generally on farms. laid about. a hundred eggs a year. Uh and then after. a few years when they quit laying eggs,

then they would be used for meat. >> They'd turn into Sunday dinner. >> They would. Uh and these days, starting. in like the 50s, things became a little. more industrialized and uh mechanized. And that's when battery cages came into. play, which is the wire cage that you. might like if you have friends that have. backyard chickens, you probably built. them a large coupe and within that coupe. some battery cages. But if you're a. backyard chicken person, you probably. have battery cages that are very large.

for two or three, four chickens. >> Yeah, these are not the battery cages. that they're raised in after farming. became industrialized in the 50s. like. these things are you usually have I've. seen anywhere between three and seven. chickens in there. Um, and usually each. one has about the amount of space. about about a little lower or a little. smaller than the size of a standard. piece of paper. And for the the the. teenage listeners out there, it's. smaller than the size or about the size.

of an iPad. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> That's for a chicken. >> A chicken. They can't move around. They. can't flap their wings. They can't do a. lot of stuff that we'll find out is a is. a big problem in a minute. Um, they're. meant to be kept basically in one place. And because this stuff has all been. industrialized, their whole job and. everything about their life is to just. sit there and lay egg after egg after. egg. So, they're kept in these battery. cages. The battery cages are kept off.

the ground, which is good because it. means that they're away from parasites. and pooporn diseases. And the eggs are. >> Yeah, they when they poop, they they it. falls onto a conveyor belt that carries. the poop away, so it's a little more. sanitary. When they lay an egg, the. bottom of the cage is slanted downward, so it rolls downward onto a different. conveyor belt, thankfully, that whisks. the egg away. So, the whole thing is. really automated. And because these. cages are are so um uh uniform, they can.

be stacked. It's modular, so you can go. upward with chickens as well as outward, too. You can really raise a lot of. chickens in these battery cages, which. is good if you're a farmer, not really. good if you're a chicken, though. >> Yes. And these chickens, you know, I. said that the backyard chickens of your. uh laid about 100 eggs a year. Today's. chickens lay closer to 300 eggs a year. >> uh because they are bred specifically to. do so. and just the way beyond being. bred to do so like you said their setup.

is such that it's just uh you know they. have made it a very efficient operation. as far as how much they can extract from. each hen. Yeah, that was real quick, Chuck. That was a big part of the. industrialization of farming, too, is is. breeding practices to where we started. selectively breeding types of chickens. that either laid a perfectly nice brown. egg or um ones that gained weight in. certain places that we wanted them to. Like genetics has been a huge part of.

that as well. >> Yeah, we're really lucky because our. really really good friends Justin and. Melissa, uh I've known Justin since. college. You know, Justin, >> sure. >> He uh they have chickens. They have. these four beautiful ladies in their. backyard. >> Awesome. >> Uh and they have a a big wonderful. coupe, but anytime they're outside uh. and can safeguard them from hawks by. keeping an eye on them, >> those those ladies are running around. the yard with their dogs, they've. somehow managed to train these dogs to. kind of give them their space.

>> Uh and it's great. And you know, they. they give us eggs and we spend money in. their wine shop and it's a great. symbiotic relationship. >> That is really great. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a good uh we we save our. cartons and stuff when we do have to buy. eggs. So, they have cartons to give out. to their friends cuz these ladies are. laying a lot of eggs lately. >> So, Justin has uh chickens and a wine. shop now. He's living the life. >> I know, man. It's the American dream. realized by my British import friend.

>> Right. Well, good. So, he's doing it what you. could call the right way, I think. Um, which is to say, >> not necessarily the profit maximizing. way, but the chickens are, you would. guess, much happier than the ones that. are in these battery cages. And one of. the reasons why we would say the. chickens are not so happy in the battery. cages because like again, they can't. move. If you put a chicken on a piece of. paper, it's going to take up most of.

that piece of paper or iPad, right? >> So when you visualize that, you suddenly. get like this is this is for the whole. for its whole life, usually somewhere. around 70 weeks. This is how it spends. almost all of that time in this little. cage just laying eggs, laying eggs to an. at an unnatural pace. And because it's. kind of stuck in this this one small. place, there's a lot of things that it. can't do that people who have studied. chickens say chickens need to do this or.

else they're going to go insane and have. a really horrific life. Um, and that is. kind of what the basis of creating like. cage-free setups or like genuine. freerange setups is it comes from giving. chickens a better life while during. those 70 or so weeks that they're alive. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's easy for. somebody maybe who doesn't think about. it much to think of a a laying hen as. just this sort of organic egg machine,

like a living egg machine. not organic. in the sense that it's, you know, sort. of hard organic, but a living machine. that just pumps out these eggs that we. love to eat for breakfast, uh, or add on. top of a hamburger or, you know, is a. nice. >> bowl of rice krispies. >> to a good meal. Oo, I don't know about. that. Uh, but that's not the case. Like, these birds have personalities and they. have behaviors that they want to do and. that they normally do. Like, uh, just a.

handful of them, they love. And you. know, you can see this when I go over to. Justin and Melissa's house when they're. out doing their thing. They're pining. and they're cleaning their feathers and. they're flapping ruffling their feathers. around and flapping around and they take. little dust baths which means they roll. around on the ground and uh they're. absorbing uh oil for their feathers and. they're getting rid of their dead skin. and they're shedding feathers that they. don't need and little feather mites and. they love to nest. And then here's the. big one is, and I've seen it happen, and.

I've tried to guard my eyes, uh, because. I know what's going on. They don't like. a lot of attention when they're laying. these eggs. It's a they're giving birth. It's a private matter to them, you know, giving birth in the figurative sense. >> Mhm. >> But it's uh it's like they're doing. their business. They don't want a lot of. attention. They like to do this. instinctively in private. >> Yeah. >> And they're not able to do that. there. It's called the laying act and it's on. full display and they can get so upset.

about having to do this without any. privacy in battery cages. Not can, they. they do they get so upset they they peck. at other hens and they fight each other. and that's why they end up clipping. their beaks because the other hens are. getting injured from being henpecked. because they're stressed out from living. on an iPad. >> Yeah. Dr. Conra Conrad Laurens or. Laurens um who starred in our animal. imprinting episode. I think he's popped.

up elsewhere. He had a quote. He said, "The worst torture to which a battery. hen is exposed is the inability to. retire somewhere for the laying act. >> For the person who knows something about. animals, it is truly heart-rending to. watch how a chicken tries again and. again to crawl beneath her fellow cage. mates to search there in vain for. cover.". >> Yeah. Because they don't get what's. going on, too. It's It is It's. heartbreaking. >> Yeah. So like that is an enormous thing. Like not only are we forcing them to. have 200% more eggs every year, we're.

forcing them to do it against their. instinct basically every day. And they. really suffer a tremendous amount of. distress for that. And then one of the. other ones, one of the other behaviors. that's really really big is roaming. Their freedom to roam. >> Yeah. >> Uh chickens are very social animals. They like to hang out. They like to mess. with each other. They like to pin one. another, not just pin themselves. Um, but they also need space to get away. from one another. And when they can't do. that, that's when things like henpecking. to uh to an injurous degree or.

cannibalism or all sorts of um terrible. zucasis can happen when chickens are. stuck together in a very small area for. their entire lives. And that is the. basis of battery cages. And you said. it's like. like it it makes sense from a mechanized. industrial standpoint, but back in the. day when when when they figured this. out, these are the same people who. resisted putting seat belts in cars and. got us into Vietnam. You know what I. mean? >> Like these aren't exactly the most.

moralistic generation that we've ever. produced. Yeah, >> they were very sensible and like. rational-minded and didn't take a great. deal of humanity into consideration when. it came to profit maximization. >> Yes, this is a segment we like to call. Gen X speaks to millennials and Gen Z. about boomers. >> That's right. You got that straight. >> Uh but it's true. They also, you know, alter their uh diet and lighting to uh. to maximize their uh output. uh they.

don't move around, so they're obviously, you know, what's going to happen when an. animal is just sort of stuck in this. small tiny thing. They're going to have. no muscle. They have muscle loss because. they can't move around and do their. thing. And they they basically become. what I described, which is these living. egg laying machines, which is exactly. how the industrial egg complex, if. that's a term, uh wants it. But, uh, things are changing a little bit. And. we're going to walk you through some of,

you know, a lot of these are marketing. terms, but some of them are legitimate, um, terms that the USDA allows them to. use. Uh, in addition to these great. pictures that you see on your egg. cartons of chickens, like, you know, smiling under the sunshine on a rolling. pastoral scene. Mhm. >> Uh they're allowed to do stuff like. that, but the words that they use are. regulated. to an extent. And if you really, really, really want to do your due diligence. though, you got to know what all this.

stuff means and then even do a little. more investigation. >> Yeah, typical USDA type stuff. But let's. take a break and then we'll get into. cage free. How about that? >> Let's get out of the cage. >> If you want to know, then you're in. luck. Just listen up to Josh and. stuff you should know. >> Stuff you should. know. >> Stuff you should.

know. >> Okay, so we're talking cage-free and I. think I already let the cat out of the. bag. Although hopefully not in the. chicken coop. >> Yeah. um that cage-free actually does. have some meaning like it actually if. you if you look at it compared to the. battery cage operations of your or. actually I shouldn't say of your there's. still most chickens in the United States. at least are still in battery cages I.

think. >> something like 70% which amounts to 230. million hens are currently in battery. cages. >> um so it's still going on still. happening but if you if you compare the. battery cage to the cage free operation. It is a substantial difference for sure. >> Yeah. Like the more we describe this. stuff, there are levels of getting. better for sure. Uh and cagefree is. better. Uh it is greater than. It means. and this is a direct quote from the.

USDA. Uh it means the eggs must be. produced by hens housed in a way that. allows for not only unlimited access to. food and water. And you might think, well, duh. But they used to like keep. food from hens. Uh so different things. would happen with their production and. they were like you can't do that at all. anymore. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then the rest of it goes but. unlike eggs from cage tens also provides. them freedom to roam during the laying. cycle. >> That's huge. >> Uh but here's the deal is they are there.

aren't any guidelines about what that. access to outdoors means. Uh it doesn't. say how much space there needs to be. And so basically what you're still. seeing is a big long barn with a bunch. of laying hens packed inside there. They're just not in those wire cages. No, they have now instead of about a 8. by8 square of space available to them. like they do in the battery cages. Typically, a hen in a free or a.

cage-free situation has about a 10 and a. half inch by 11 inch space available to. them per bird. And it's not like it's. designated. That's. >> But they can move around at least. >> They can move around these giant giant. barns. The problem is is there's tens of. thousands of hens also in these barns. and they just don't have that much room. to move. If they had a ton of willpower. and they decided they were going to go. to point B, they could conceivably make. their way there, >> but it's not going to be easy. And it's.

not like they're just roaming around and. they have a bunch of of free space to. move around in or do much in. Again, compared to the battery cages where they. had no chance of moving away from their. little cage, it is a huge improvement. But then when you see a picture of what. a cage-free barn looks like, it it's it. gets a little depressing again. >> Yeah. And you know, some of these uh egg. producers are uh not the hens, but the. operations. >> Mhm. >> Obviously, there's only one egg producer.

in the scenario. Um they do have some. perches that are built up and they do. have some nesting areas, so they can hop. up there. They can stretch their wings, but they're not required to. That's not. part of the USDA. uh requirement. If you. want to look for requirements that uh. you could look for a label from the. United Egg Producers, they have a. different certification guideline for. cage-free that's a little more um I. guess open than the USDA's or. restrictive, I guess, if you're a.

farmer. Uh they must allow hens to. exhibit natural behaviors that we talked. about and include enrichments such as. scratch areas, perches, and nests. Uh so. they have to have those. And then they. must have access to litter. And litter. is just like the stuff on the ground. that they like to roll around in. It's. not like beer cans and old batteries and. stuff. >> Not the crying iron eyes Cody kind of. >> Uh they must have protection from. predators and. >> be able to move through a barn in a. manner that provoke uh that promotes.

bird welfare. So that's a little hazy, but that generally means not as crowded. But I don't think that that even. specifies what that means. No. And and. that is much better than the USDA. standards. And the United egg producers. are an industry industry group of like. egg operators. Like I think there's. maybe 150 in the in the United States, which is way less than there used to be. So.

>> that produce like almost all the eggs, right? >> Yes. Yeah. And we export a lot of them, too. Um surprisingly. Uh, so it's a it's. a a c it's a cartel a like a it's a. lobbying group basically for the egg. producers. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I you know at at the risk of. sounding like suspicious of of them like. I would guess that they created these. standards to get ahead of this problem. that was growing all of a sudden and. costing them money. So by doing better. than the USDA, you know, that's great. like their hens are are genuinely like.

um um uh what's the word? What's the. opposite of suffering? Benefiting from. that. >> Mhm. >> But it makes me suspect and actually I. know from research it can be much better. than that. >> Right. >> And a big one is density. It's a it's a. huge part of it. It's density. Uh how. like there should be much greater limits. on on how many hens you can have per. barn. And then also another one is even. under these um these better more.

stricter standards for hen welfare their. their lives are very much artificially. controlled still because they're kept in. this barn. They're still in a barn. They. don't go outside to be cage-free. You. you still don't go outside if you're. hen. You spend your entire life in one. single barn uh until you stop producing. enough eggs fast enough and then they. turn you into pet food. That's right. Uh. sometimes feeding uh yourself back to. your fellow chickens. Uh I looked a.

little bit into what chicken feed is. mainly made of. >> and cuz I remember at the time when I. took this tour, someone said something. about, you know, there's chicken parts. in the chicken feed. >> Uh this was a someone telling me this. I. didn't find that in my research. Uh but. there has been a movement away from. things like fish meal because fish meal. is obviously the oceans are being. depleted too. So using fishes to feed. chickens isn't a great idea. >> And I think just a few years ago um.

there was final approval to use uh and. it sounds gross but like fly larvae. >> and you might think like that's good. That is good because that's what. chickens would eat if they were just. roaming the countryside. They would eat. things like that. >> Yeah. So, they're starting to be fed. things they normally would would eat. otherwise, which is good. Their their. food is still very much controlled and. portioned and everything, but they um. they're starting to be fed things that. more resemble their diet, whereas before.

it was just whatever was cheapest and. most abundant that you could feed a. chicken like soy and fish. That's Yeah, that's not natural. And you as the. person eating the egg should be like, I. don't want a egg from a chicken that's. been eating fish its whole life. Chickens don't eat fish. this egg. probably tastes way different than it it. should, >> right? >> And that's another thing, too. There's a. lot of health benefits that have been. documented in eggs that come from. well-treated chickens. It seems to be. that the better you treat a chicken, the. healthier the egg it produces is.

>> You You can just get a a And, you know, if you don't have a friend that has a. backyard chicken, there's probably some. local farmers market where some uh fish. fan will sell you their eggs. Uh, and. you you need only look at them from the. outside at first to what they look like. in the pan to what they taste like. It. is a stark difference. It just is. Um, >> yeah, totally. You eat one and you can. take on like five cops. >> Yeah, they're that nutrientdense.

>> These cage free chickens, whether. they're uh United Egg Producer standard. or just USDA standard, they still have. their beaks trimmed when they're 10 days. old. they are still uh force molted. Uh. molting is a natural process but they do. something called force molting when uh. and this is where they used to take away. their feed entirely to force molting. Now they just withhold some feed to. force the molting. It's when they shed. those feathers and mol and that extends. their their layer life by you know it's.

pretty substantial. Uh it can be like 25. to 40 weeks. So again, they're just. they're ringing every last egg out of. those chickens, cage-free or not. >> I saw that the the forced molting is not. actually in and of itself harmful and. that it might actually be beneficial for. the chickens because they live their. life indoors. And one of the ways that. they do that is through adjusting the. the length of the light, the artificial. light. But the problem is they're.

withholding. Yeah, >> it no, it's not naturally happening, but. it's not going to naturally happen. during their lifetime anyway. And it. actually is good for them to go through. a mol, but they wouldn't without this. induced or forced molting because they. aren't they aren't subjected to um. natural light. They don't get natural. light. It's all artificial. They spend. their entire lives basically indoors. almost entirely cut off from natural. light, if not entirely cut off from it. >> See, I thought hens moly. by being a hen. No,

>> no, I think they take their cues from um. a shorter duration of days and then they. stop eating quite as much and then they. go through the molting process, stop. laying eggs uh as frequently and then. >> but that happens naturally though is. what I'm saying. >> Yes, it does. But it's cued by changes. in natural light and if they're not. exposed to natural light, they're not. going to undergo the mold. >> Right. Okay. >> Unless you force it artificially. >> Yeah. But like Justin Melissa's eggs mol.

because they like it it can be the the. shorter day of the natural light cycle. of a year. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's a natural thing. I'm. just saying like they can induce it. through artificial light changes in. artificial light. And it's not. necessarily bad that they induce it. artificially. It's probably better than. just not doing it at all. >> Right. Okay. I got you. >> Okay. Thank you. >> I thought you were saying they don't. malt normally. >> No. No. No. I would never say something. like that.

>> Uh now we can move on. Those are hens. that lay eggs. Now we can move on to. hens that are raised for meat. Uh they. are called broilers uh in the industry. And um it's kind of the same deal. 99%. of American broiler chickens never see. light in this country. Uh they are in. those from the moment they're born as. little chicky chicks. They are in uh a. barn and they live about six weeks and. they are they are pumped up as fast as.

they can be pumped up. >> uh to get the biggest breast meat. possible. Um, I think there was Dave, this is pretty startling, um, Dave found. a calculation that if you, if you sort. of transferred their growth rate to like. what a human baby would look like, uh, it would be a 349 lb baby by their. second birthday, >> like baby Huey. >> Yeah, that's baby Huey. All right. >> Yeah. So, the the the way that they did. this is through basically selective.

breeding. um selecting chickens that um. grow in their breast area, but they've. basically surpassed any any point where. you would normally stop because it's now. very harmful for the chicken. These. chickens that we eat that the broiler. chickens um not necessarily a whole. chicken. It can also be like, you know, um like drumsticks or breasts or thighs. or whatever. All that comes from a. broiler chicken. Any chicken you eat is. a broiler chicken. Um, so these broiler.

chickens are are usually selected for. their breasts and their breasts are so. heavy that they can't really walk. because their legs aren't developing the. way that they should. But then in. addition to that, their legs can't. develop the way they should because the. breast is so heavy. So they end up with. metabolic diseases. They end up with. muscle atrophy and they don't do much of. anything except eat and rest because. that's basically all they have the. energy to do. >> Yeah. 6 weeks is their lifespan. >> Yeah. Again, just want to reiterate. that. >> So over the six weeks, yeah, they go.

from like chicks to slaughtered adults. in six weeks. So they're growing that. fast, but they're also growing way. bigger than any normal chicken would, right? Any normal breed. So during that. six weeks, um, they're stuck in this. litter if they're in a situation where. they have litter available to them and. they're just pooping and peeing in this. litter and they're not getting up enough. to not get like blisters from the. ammonia in the litter. It's a it's a. problem in and of itself. Like that's.

how basically obese these these chickens. are that they they cannot move much at. all and they end up getting sores from. exposure to all the urine they're. they're sitting in. >> Yeah, this was the hardest part of that. tour for me and the one where my buddy. Barry and I actually left the building. >> uh after and I'll go ahead and we. probably should have issued a trigger. warning period, but hopefully the title. of the episode would scare off any like. vegans who really do don't even want to. hear about this,

>> but trigger warning right here. uh one. of the you know and this is what they do. when one of the broilers or any of the. chickens are are injured or you know uh. winged in some way that isn't uh I I. don't know I'm not going to put I'm not. going to label what exactly is wrong. with a chicken when they pick it up. >> by the neck and sling it in a little. circle real quick to snap their neck and. then throw it back on the ground. But. that's exactly what happened in front of.

us when we saw a a chicken that. apparently wasn't doing well and the. guy's literally in mid-con conversation. and I know this is the job that they do. and I don't expect him to hold a funeral. but um that's when Barry and I stepped. out and we were like uh we're going to. be out here for the rest of the tour. >> I can imagine. >> And not in protest I'm about to start. >> Yeah. I had five cigarettes at the same. time. So, there's this um this uh writer. from the New Yorker named Michael. Spencer who went to a poultry farm and. he wrote that um there must have been.

30,000 chickens sitting silently on the. floor in front of me. They didn't move, they didn't cluck. They were almost like. statues of chickens living in nearly. total darkness and they would spend. every minute of their six week lives. that way. >> Yeah, it's pretty sobering. >> And those are the brothers. Those are. the ones we eat, right? So, um, again, they're bred to to grow this way, and. it's totally unnatural. Chickens don't. normally get like that. >> And when they do interact with people, which is not obviously a requirement for. a chicken to have a good life, but it's.

for what you just said. It's to to. harvest or kill a sick or a sick chicken. or get the the carcass of a dead chicken. out of there. And if you want to see. just how little humans uh how little of. a role humans have in uh chicken farming. today, there's a video that Dave found. It's actually like a trade video that I. think is kind of like to sell all of. these different machines. >> It's called Inside the Milliondoll.

Chicken Farm. Amazing modern chicks. poultry farming check technology. It's. on YouTube and it's like 16 minutes. long. I didn't watch it with the volume, so I don't know if there's narration, but if you watch it on mute, it's just. it's mesmerizing. And it's also like I I. really hope humans don't end up like. this in the next like 100 200 years, you. know, >> like it's really really weird and. unsettling, but then also at the same. time deeply fascinating. >> Yeah. So the answer then would be free.

range. Uh that see is seemingly the. solution. So what does that mean? Uh we. talked about cage-free and what that. means. Uh for the USDA uh any egg or. poultry product uh that can be. classified as free range means the. housing for the birds must provide. continuous free access to the outside. through their normal growing cycle. Uh. and again this is sort of like that. story when the guy said it just means. there's a door. They don't go out there.

because their food and water is in here. >> Yeah. USDA DA doesn't say um how big. this door has to be uh where it has to. be placed. They don't say uh they don't. uh require them to go outside like they. don't shuttle them outside every day for. some sunlight uh like you would like in. a prison yard or something like that, >> right? >> All that matters is that they have. continuous access. That door stays. accessible and open. And uh so you've. got your big barn again, you've got your. small door, and if they want to go.

outside, they can. But then even if they. do go outside, it doesn't say like and. you got to have this much area for this. many chickens to roam around if they. want to. >> It can be anything. It can be a pretty. small little area and it still qualifies. as outside. So, so those huge dark barns. with um artificial light filled with. tens of thousands of chickens, if you. popped a hole the size of a bread plate. into the wall of that barn, you could.

call your operation a freerange chicken. operation. Now, that's it. >> Yeah, I didn't see any that small to be. fair, but uh technically you're right. >> Yeah. And I it like yes it is technical. that I'm right but from from the. research and into just how um how much. of a finger the USDA has on what. constitutes free range and who uh meets. those requirements. It's entirely. possible that somebody's just cut a. little hole inside the barn and now is.

is saying free range and could argue. that if an inspector did come out and. argued it with them they would probably. the the egg producer would probably win. that argument in court. Right. I mean, the doors I saw were bigger and chickens. could easily fit like more than one. chicken. Like they were sizable, but. again, the whole point is their food and. water is inside, right? >> And so chickens are generally and. especially when they're they're still. pretty crowded in there. They're still. going to stay where their food and water.

is generally. It's not like they're. saying, "Hey, we're going to put the. water out. We're going to have outdoor. class today, guys, >> right? >> We're going to put the water and the. food outside. That'll really encourage. you to go outside." They don't care if. they go outside or not. >> So, um, we should say the EU has much. better standards for what constitutes. free range. They've been working at free. range and cage-free stuff since like 99. and have really made some big gains. since then. Um, and but then even in the. United States, Chuck, there's plenty of.

people like Justin, um, who are saying. like, "No, I actually want my chickens. to be free range." like you would think. free range actually is. And so there's. there's um there's another kind of. designation called pasture-raised. which people tend to use when they're to. kind of separate themselves from free. range because I think enough people have. picked up on the fact that free range is. kind of meaningless. >> Mhm. >> So pasture range seems to be um more. more legitimate or most people who do.

legitimately raise chickens outdoors. would call them pasture-raised. So. they're like wheeling them around from. place to place. They have an enclosure. that they can go to in inclement. weather, but for the most most of their. lives, they're spending their time. outdoors um doing what chickens do given. plenty of space for being chickens. And. that's typically pasture-raised. Unfortunately, as far as the USD is the. USDA is concerned, pasture-raised is the.

same thing as free range. So again, if. you have a shed that has all these. chickens and you cut a hole in the side, you can now call that pasture raised too. if you want. >> Yeah, you can't. And and if you're. saying, well, if you're saying that some. places use pasture raised or raed, uh. that'd be quite a party. >> It's like anthrax is loose in your. pasture. >> Uh if you're saying that um some farmers. are doing it right, smaller operations, and when they say pasture raised, they. mean it. But technically the US DA.

doesn't make a distinction. What am I to. do? That's where you have to like do. your homework. You can't just make if. you want to you you if you if you if it. matters to you, you got to look up this. farm and see what they're doing. And a. lot of times these smaller farms will. say, "Hey, come on out if you care and. we'll show you our operation because. we're proud of it." Like you can. >> uh they generally have websites where. you can and it's all there. You know, I. think it it the USDA even demands, not.

demands, but requires a uh I demand a. URL. >> They take their shoe off and bang it on. the desk. >> They require a URL where you can look. this stuff up if you want to. >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, the USA is. all over that, which is good because I. mean we've got third party certification. who, you know, who could be. illegitimate, but I think that like the. industry would police third party. certifiers because they don't want to. like give away their money unnecessarily. because getting um getting things like. pasture-raised or um free range like.

these are these are like it's not. required. You can opt to have it done to. to be certified like that, but you're. going to pay for it. So, >> if we had like phony, you know, certifiers running around, I guess, yeah, the big producers would probably. co-opt it and use it to their gain. But. luckily, there are some really. legitimate third party certifiers. And. the one that seems to have bubbled to. the top, as far as I can tell, is called. Humane Farm Animal Care. Hack, I think,

is the way that you say the the. abbreviation. >> Yeah, I think that's a good uh. cliffhanger. >> Okay. Yeah. and let's take our final. break and we'll talk about them and uh. and generally how the USDA determines if. it qualifies as cage-free or free range. to begin with. If you want to know, then. you're in luck. Just listen up. and. stuff you should know.

Stuff you should. know. >> Stuff you should. know. >> All right. So, you mentioned a couple of. important things before the break. One. is that um if you want these. certifications. uh it is an uh like egg grading stuff. like that you see like grade A eggs it. is a voluntary thing you have to pay for. uh so you can you know you do it so you.

can put it on your label so you can. charge more obviously. >> Mhm. >> Uh and you know maybe you care about. delivering a higher quality egg. Who. knows? But uh the USDA doesn't um like. if it's certified organic they're not. out there doing that certification. that. is completely done by USDA approved. certification bodies and those seem to. be a little more. uh feet on the ground. Yeah. >> As far as actually going to farms and. looking at them. Uh the USDA does not.

require and and they can't. There are. too many, >> you know, I don't think they even had. the staffing to do that if they wanted. to to go out and actually photograph. arms and check it out. Uh if you want. that descriptor and label, uh you have. to send in a detailed written. description explaining how it meets the. standards along with an affidavit that's. signed that it's not false or. misleading. But that's kind of it. Like. that's the all the proof they need. >> That's so that's for free range.

>> Yes. >> Cage-free they take way more seriously. That's where they do have inspectors go. out and check, right? >> So like if it says cage free, it has. been verified that this this meets those. cage-free standards. So that's that's a. good thing. That's another reason why. cage free is a big step up. But yeah, free range is you say um yes, my. operation is free range under USDA. standards. No, I'm not lying. And the. USDA says good enough. You you can put. free range on your labels now. Yeah,

they did uh I think Dave found a study. from that animal welfare institute that. examined records from the FSIS. and they found that only one producer. out of a hundred uh actually submitted. photos of the barn showing the access. Like I think 83 out of the hundred uh. provided evidence uh I guess not. photographic evidence but um affidavit. and third party kind of certifications. And then 17 of them just had zero.

substanti substantiation at all. >> Yeah. >> And that they dug in a little bit and. found in 44 cases uh they had no. detailed written description at all, which is supposedly what's required. >> But they still got approval from the. USDA to to label their stuff as free. range. >> Yeah, it I don't want to say the words. rubber stamp, but it seems like it might. be that way. >> for sure. And again, just buyer beware. Free range is synonymous as far as the. USDA is concerned with free roaming, pasture-fed, pasture grown,

pasture-raised, and meadow raised. And. again, just want to drive this home. It. means that there's a hole in the side of. this giant barn filled with tens of. thousands of chickens who may or may not. be going in or out of that hole on any. day or if ever during their entire. lives. And on the other side of that, it. might just be a concrete pad is is what. they're they could be free ranging on. Like that's it as far as USDA is. concerned. So we have a long way to go. with free range. Um in particular. because Chuck, like you, me, and.

basically anyone listening to this. podcast has a totally different. conception of what free range means, right? And there was a survey that was. done again by the Animal Welfare. Institute. They did it in 2015 and they. went out to people just everyday people. and said, "Hey, what do you what do you. think free range should should. um entail and they came back with some. pretty interesting stuff.". >> Yeah, they you know, as you would. expect, uh 65% of people thought that. free range should mean that there's.

enough space outside for every bird to. be out during the day, >> uh during daylight hours if they want to. be. And 62% of consumers said they. thought the outdoor area should be at. least partially covered by grass, >> right? >> Like the expectation from consumers is, well, you put a picture on your carton. of a hen rolling around uh this. beautiful pastoral scene, so that's kind. of what I expect or am I just being. hoodwinkedked? And the answer is you're. being hoodwinkedked. Well, to be fair, these are the same people that believe.

that those barbecue signs where a pig is. actually cooking the barbecue, >> they think that's going on as well. So, we got to really kind of keep this in. perspective. >> I never understood that one. Those are. so disturbing. >> Yeah, it really is. >> This is my brother Lou. We we we're. eating him later. >> We had a falling out. Uh. um so like I said, if you're if this all. of this is just frustrating and. confusing, all you have to do is do a. little leg work um or you know,

obviously go to those local farmers. markets because that's where that's. where you're really getting the good. stuff and talk to them. I guarantee you. that fish fan is going to invite you out. to their farm to check out what's going. on. >> Yeah. But. >> you might walk away with more than eggs. You know what I'm saying? >> That's right. >> Might be a nice trip. So it literally and figuratively. >> So um if you do want to figure out like. where to get good eggs or what eggs you. can trust and because you it's because.

you don't trust a fish fan. Um there are. organizations that say like let's not. get fish fans involved in this at all. Let's keep them at bay. >> And everyone says yes agreed, agreed. How can we move forward without the. fish? >> Let's keep them on the couch where they. belong. So again, the Humane Farm Animal. Care Fact, um they uh they from what I. can tell, at least in the United States, they definitely are legit. >> and they've come up with some. definitions um for their certified. humane label. So certified humane on a.

like a poultry or some sort of food. product, >> it actually has met some really good. standards. >> Yeah. And they were basically like, the. USDA's definition of free range and. pasture raised are so terrible, we're. just going to create our own. definitions. And they did. So they. created their own standards. And to to. be certified humane freerange or. certified humane pasture-raised, the. they the producers have to meet those.

standards. And they're good ones. >> Yeah, they're really good. Uh or, you. know, comparatively speaking at least. Uh for free range uh the hens must be. outside for at least 6 hours a day uh. weather permitting obviously and that. that outdoor space must have a minimum. of two square ft for every bird. And. again that doesn't sound like much and. it's not but the difference between. being able to move around freely when. you have two square feet per bird and. when you have an iPad per bird is pretty. huge. Like you can actually move around. and it's not just like being at the.

worst party you've ever been to. uh. pasture-raised certified humane is even. better than that. The hens must be. outdoors year round uh with mobile or. fixed housing where the hens can nest or. rest uh for the night, get out of bad. weather, and they are they get about 108. square ft per bird. 1,000 birds for 2.5. acres. >> A bird doesn't even know what to do with. that much space. >> No, they're like, "Hey, can I build a a.

wing onto my little hen house?" That's. right. And Chuck, one of the big things. that they're doing at HFAC is um they. employ veterinarians, people with. advanced degrees in animal studies. Those are the people that go out and. visit these farms to certify them, people who know what they're talking. about, people who are not going to be. bought off, people with the um animals. welfare in mind to verify that. everybody's meeting these standards. before they get that certification. So, that's a good one. There are plenty of.

other ones out there, too. But that's um. just based on our research and from what. Dave came up with, too. It's like that's. that's a good one to start with. But. it's like you said, do your homework. You know, >> it doesn't take long either. It's not. like you got to invest hours and hours. into this chicken research. Like. >> I guarantee you wherever you live, you. can find some uh pretty good options. with, you know, 15 minutes of research. online. >> That's right. >> Near you. >> Yeah. So, there you have it. We just. need to get on the USDA to increase to.

to basically say no, they have to spend. a certain amount of time outdoors to be. free range and then we'll go from there. because the USDA will probably say 15. minutes to start. >> Yeah. >> Uh if you want to know more about. freerange chickens and uh cage-free. eggs, there's a lot of stuff out there. that you can read and we hope that you. will. And since I said we hope that you. will, it's time for listener mail. >> Uh that's right. This one is called Egg. on Chuck's face. Uh because I misspoke.

in a big way on our national parks. episode when I touted disperse camping. wherever you want in national parks. I. meant I was thinking of national. forests. >> Oh, >> that's where you can do disperse camping. wherever you want. And boy, I said it a. bunch. So I you can't camp anywhere you. want in national parks. >> Okay. >> Uh and I feel terrible for that being. out there so much that we may even have. to edit that. But, uh, greetings from. your friend and national park ranger.

Uh, your episode of national parks was. excellent, and we heard from quite a few. park rangers, by the way. >> Mhm. >> Uh, I'd like to address a statement made. by Chuck. Some national parks may still. allow disperse camping. It's commonly. allowed in national forest, though. National, uh, parks and national forests. are similar, uh, but have different. missions and are therefore managed. differently. Uh, national parks tend to. regulate recreation a little more. strictly. In fact, many national parks. now have permit systems in place for. backpackers. Yeah, that's very very. true. Uh and those who successfully. acquire permits uh even then are often.

restricted to camping in designated. backcountry campsites. Uh this prevents. overcrowding in popular destinations. which lessens the amount of abandoned. gear, garbage, and food scraps. inevitably uh left behind by certain. visitors certain visitors. Uh, I wanted. to address this because though. regulating where people camp and how. many people can camp in a certain area. may seem extreme to some, it helps. preserve the wilderness character and. solitude. So, many visitors are seeking. when they visit a national park. Uh, additionally, visitors who disperse camp.

in a park that requires a designated. campsite and or permit may be subject to. fines. It's very important for all. visitors to research regulations for any. park, forest, or wilderness that they're. visiting. Happy hiking. And that is uh. from our no-named park ranger. This uh. park ranger wished to remain anonymous, which is we're always happy to do. >> Thank you, anonymous park ranger. Happy. hiking to you as well. >> That's right. And I even had one park. ranger say, "Don't make fun of our green.

shorts." Uh and to be clear, I don't. think those shorts are the same color as. those trucks. >> Oh, really? >> That's the color I was really making fun. of. Okay, >> maybe they are, but I don't I don't know. if there's a if you could even make a. fabric that color, >> right? They just kind of appear. >> It doesn't adhere to textiles. >> Um, well, thank you very much again, uh, anonymous park ranger and to all the. park rangers and everybody who wrote in. to correct Chuck, who by the way took. it, uh, with a plum. So, way to go,

Chuck. If you want to get in touch with. us via email like your uh friendly. anonymous park ranger did, you can send. it to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.