Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hi everybody it's your old pal Josh and. for this week's select I've chosen our. episode from August of 2021 where we. take a look at one of the most unethical. social psychology experiments in the. history of the field where Dr Martin R. assembled three men who each believed he. was Christ put them in a room together. and sat back and waited for the. fireworks to start and what came out of. it is both an indictment and an. inspiring affirmation of humanity and on. a personal note I would like to wish my.

sweet sweet wife Yumi a very big happy. birthday. [Music]. enjoy welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Dave is here. with us today and we're all just quietly. holding hands now we have to stop and.

come into the real world and start. talking to you find people for this. episode of stuff you should. know my my lip got caught in my tooth. when I said you and it came out a little. weird it's funny uh my daughter finally. lost her first tooth and it's you know. it's changing the way she talks she's. got a little funny little lisp and she's. always tonging on it and I'm like I'm. going to be there with you soon you know. I got to get this front one redone right. so the old redid yeah I'm going to wait.

till right before we have live. shows so I can pull that front tooth. again nice that'll be a special treat. for everybody especially me oh you were. used to it I really was um the worst was. when when you had that little case that. you would put it in and it had vent so. the smell could waft out of it I yeah I. I I gave up after the first one on. wearing that thing I was just like who. cares yeah no it great it was very.

liberating it was as is this podcast. episode I think this is going to be a. good one because Chuck I've been wanting. to talk about this for a really long. time this is one of those things that. you like hear about and you're like wait. what that that can't be right and then. you read a little more about it and a. little more and it just keeps getting. worse and worse but yet it's um it's. just kind of one of the like a landmark. study yeah in the field of psychology. that we're talking about today yeah the. pre christs of hips solante and uh I.

studied this I remember this from. studying it in Psychology class in. college and got kind of into it at the. time and um you started wearing like. three Christ t-shirts and stuff uh I. followed them on tour it was great uh I. I don't for some reason I thought I read. the book but I don't think I read the. book I think we just covered the book in. college and in a psychology class like I. don't think think they made you read the.

whole book we basically just kind of. went over it but I had been pretty. fascinated for years and uh you know. eventually when Hollywood made a movie. about it four years ago I was excited. and even paid to rent that thing oh. how'd that work. out pretty good I watched the first half. hour and realized oh man they've just. sort of disneyfied this thing and it's. not good yeah although everybodyy Kevin. Pollock is in it and he's always great. hey that guy can steal a scene better.

than the. Hamburglar yeah the movie uh just so. everyone knows is called the three. Christ of hips salani from John Abnet. starring Richard Gear is the name. changed doctor and then the three. christs in the movie are portrayed by. Peter. Dinklage uh one of my favorite actors. Walton. gogin yeah he's great man I went back I. told you I was watching The Shield again. that guy was amazing in that oh was he. in that yeah yeah he played one of the. main characters.

he's just the best and then uh uh what's. the guy's name Bradley Whitford uh who's. also great everyone in it is good it. just it's one of those movies that they. I think just over. sanitized and should have made a. documentary. instead but they didn't and that's okay. and we don't have to talk about that. movie ever again now that we have. instead I think we should start by. giving a little background in the guy. whose idea the three Christ of ipsan. experiment was and it was a researcher.

psychologist a social psychologist your. favorite um mhm named Milton. R um and Milton roich had some ideas. about what it was to to make up an. identity what made up a person's sense. of who they were yeah and he basically. had broken it out into beliefs a series. of different kinds of beliefs which. we'll kind of talk about here there a. little more but there's this anecdote. that's frequently passed around that. kind of like plays the early groundwork.

for this idea that that someone's belief. in who they are could conceivably be. challenged and it came one night when he. was sitting around the dinner table with. his uh wife and his two young daughters. um and he accidentally in like a a. moment of frustration telling them to. settle down at dinner uh called one. another by their opposite names and the. girls just thought that was like the. funniest thing that ever heard at. first yes was that was that my.

you yeah I even stuck my finger up like. all right now you but you can't see it. can you no cuz we just listen to each. other uh yeah at first and it was a. little fun game and then I think the. five-year-old even said you know this is. just a game right Dad and Dad said no. it's real and uh I hear him saying it in. that voice and you know pretty soon they. were begging for him to stop and I can. verify that this is a thing I've been uh. I think as a parent sometimes you'll. call your kid by another name as a joke.

like uh I know I've done it like called. uh my daughter my dog's name if she's. like she'll come into the room and like. bark or something as a joke they say oh. you're Nico and she'll say yeah I'm Nico. and then for a few minutes later I'm. like hey come here Nico and then it's. fun for about five minutes and then. she's like no like I am not so there is. very much a thing to a child's identity. especially from their parents where they. kind of get their identity and seek.

their identity when that is challenged. it it it is very quickly kind of. traumatic yeah he learned a couple of. things that one you can very quickly. challenge somebody or you can very very. quickly push someone to a state of like. trauma or anxiety or Panic even Yeah by. just by simply challenging their. identity by calling them the wrong name. purposefully that's right Jerry he also. right yeah I know. Jerry call each other Jerry I think it. would cancel each other out do it one.

more time and I will crumble okay Jerry. thank you for oh God but he also learned. like okay there's consequences to this. you can't take somebody with a with a. well-formed well-developed sense of. identity and and a I guess a normal. sense of identity and push push them to. the edge mess around with that sense of. identity there's there's harmful. consequences to that so he he started to. kind of explore this and like I was. saying like he had broken everybody's um. belief system into a handful of.

different types of beliefs and the. belief that you are who you are which is. what we call our identity he ascribed to. primitive beliefs which are just like. basic truths in the same neighborhood as. um you know I'm wearing a headphone on. one ear and I have the other one behind. my head right now I have brown hair my. name is Josh you're Chuck like just. basic truths of the universe that anyone. you talk to is going to generally agree.

with right that's where the personality. comes from yeah and that that is the. very bedrock and Foundation of how we. think about ourselves and he already saw. messing with that can be bad so he was. like hey why not take it a step. further right right so what I was saying. a minute ago with like how we saw that. there's consequences to messing with a. sane person I just made air quotes if. you couldn't tell from my ination um. messing with a sane person's identity.

you can't really do that but this is the. midcentury in America and there's a. whole group of people that you can do. basically whatever you want to with as. far as mental stuff goes and that were. people who are suffering from mental. conditions who were locked up in state. institutions at the time and so R came. up with this idea like okay wait a. minute what if I what if I got my hands. on some um mentally unstable people some.

possibly diagnosed people and and messed. with their sense of identity took their. delusion and challenged it that could be. okay because hey their lives are. basically useless anyway I'm. paraphrasing roich here and if if. something does come of it there's a good. chance that it could be positive instead. so let me have it let let me add them. basically yeah there's a quote here from. the book and uh big thanks to Dave ruse. for putting this one together I know. this was a huge it's a tough one to. Wrangle he did a great job um here's the.

quote from the book because it is not. feasible to study such phenomena with. normal people he didn't even put it in. quotes uh it seemed reasonable to focus. on delusional systems of belief in the. hope that in subjecting them to strain. there would be little to lose and. hopefully a great deal to gain and like. I read that sentence and I'm like stop. there dude right yeah that's like the. the perfect motto for the misguided. intentions of the study you know yeah he. like indicted himself with that one.

quote exactly just right out of the gate. and I read this um commentary magazine. article from 1964 by um oh I can't. remember who it was I don't have it. pulled up but he's a famous poet at the. time and he was basically saying like. you know surely Rogue ke the guy who's. writing the book will understands that. Rogue ke the character this doctor is. like out of his mind and he like he's. like slowly realizing oh wait this guy. even the author of the book has no idea. that the doctor character who's himself.

has has any idea just how unethical this. is and that's a that's a that's a great. example of that demonstrates it right. off the bat yeah there's um there's I. don't know if you listened to the snap. judgment on this did you hear that no it. was good snap you know great podcast or. or public radio program turned to. podcast sure I've heard public radio. before I used to I used to listen to a. lot more of it same here um fresh air I.

always still love fresh air but I just. it's one of those things where I just. bulk it up and then like when I'm. painting a room in our house I listen to. Just fresh air the whole time or. something you know what I mean yeah when. is Terry Gross gonna have us on do we. need to get to 20. years would that do it yeah I wouldn't. even begin to bother her until we hit 20. years and then maybe yeah and then we. just start. asking basically hi Terry hi yeah uh so. in that snap judgment um they pointed. out that he uh that roich actually read.

a Harper's article about two women who. believe they were the Virgin Mary and. that put an idea into his head and I. know that in his book he also talked. about uh being inspired a little bit by. some some stuff that voler wrote about. it right yeah there was a man in the. 17th century that voler wrote about. named Simone Morin uh who was deranged. in the parliament of the time and he. thought that he was Christ and so he was. locked up in a mad house and he um met.

in that place in that institution or. Asylum another man who thought he was. Christ and Simone Morin saw just how how. like crazy this guy seemed and was like. wait a minute maybe I'm crazy and and. confronting this other guy who claimed. to have the same identity he regained. his sanity to a certain extent and. unfortunately he relapsed and ended up. being burned at the stake for heresy. yeah but there was a moment there where. he had kind of like been knocked out of.

his delusion that's a huge deal like if. you if you if you have schizophrenia or. delusional beliefs like if your mental. disorder um is to the degree where you. hold delusions and we should say a. delusion is not like you know a made up. belief where you know you made your. belief up like this is what you think is. real it is real to you and you will. defend it when it's challenged so the. idea that somebody who was delusional.

could be knocked out of their delusion. by being confronted with somebody else. who had the same delusion that is. groundbreaking and I can see why R was. like there we go that's it there's my. there's my methodology for this uh for. this this experiment yeah and I'm sure. he was you know he was turned on a. little bit about the idea of three. christs or however many Christ he could. find he thought so hot well I mean not. even like that you know what I mean. though but is social psychologist he was.

probably like you know this would make. for a pretty uh mindblowing experiment. plus a great book title it's one of the. great understated book titles of all. time yeah it's not like the three. Richard Nixons of. hante no and I mean like ipsan is like. this it's just this this town outside of. Ann Arbor where where you know that's. where one of the mental asylums were in. um in Michigan at the time um and and. it's just like you know it might as well. be wala wala or lacana or it's just an.

unusual name in a town that doesn't. really have much of a claim to anything. you know what I mean yeah I'm sure all. three of those towns are like is he. insulting all of us or none of us no no. it's not an insult it's just it's just. um it's not like a hot happen in town. and it been like the three chist of New. York that loses something or the three. chist of London it's just a a a a rather. generally remarkable Place guys IPS.

Salan if you live there and you don't. know that it's generally unremarkable. I'm sorry to be breaking this news to. you I don't mean it in a in a unkind way. at all I know you don't uh and I think. generally back then that's where a lot. of these institutions were because they. needed like lots of land and uh so let's. just leave it at that and okay maybe. take a. break okay to let everybody really stew. on what I said yeah we'll take a break. and uh we'll find out how he found his. his his patience right after.

[Music]. [Music]. this all right so we're back. uh there were 25,000 total patients in.

the system uh in Michigan State uh in. Michigan State hospitals and he went. through all all of these uh you know he. sort of tried to call them down to uh to. ideally to Christ figures uh he found a. man who thought he was Cinderella he. found a Mrs God uh and then about six. people who thought they were Christ and. three of them were really into this idea. and really consistent with their belief.

that they were Jesus uh and two of them. happened to be at hips salani so he was. like this is perfect I'll just transfer. the third in and we'll get going yeah. and so these guys being inmates of the. state at a time where yeah ipolani had. like 4,000 people 4,000 patients in in. just this one institution it's a and if. you are already like on the margins of. society and then moved into a place. where you're with 4,000 other people on. the margins of society it's a good to.

get to not get. any and so one of the things that that. was um was part of this um this. experiment design is to to make. participating in these discussions this. group of these three christs as. attractive to these three men as. possible yeah so they were moved to Ward. d23 they were given their own private. day room to eat in to sleep or not sleep. in but to hang out in away from. everybody else they got some like place.

to stretch out and to to have some. company they got a lot of attention a. lot of perks like basically their lives. were changed in like incalculable Ways. by being part of the study and so when. they say like these were voluntary. meetings and these men were voluntary. members of the study that's that's. definitely true they were they were. voluntary participants but the perks on. offer were just so amazing they like you. would you could not turn down you know. participating in some degree yeah.

exactly so they were willing. participants uh in so far as yeah they. got these great perks M worth pointing. out um so he changed the names of the. guys uh to protect their families and to. protect them to some degree but um we. should go over sort of the bios of the. three men um should we say who played. him in the movies will that help people. I don't think so. okay I don't want to disparage those. great actors names again uh well I mean.

the acting they did a good job it was. just the material they're all great. actors you know MH sure yeah I know it's. just when you write a I don't want to. call out the script writer but it wasn't. that. good so let me ask you this I didn't see. the movie was it like and I loved the. fact that they made a movie about Freddy. merury and the other members of. Queen but was it like in the. um in in the movie what was the name of. that movie the uh the queen movie that's.

what I called it okay well Bohemian rap. city Bohemian rap city that's right do. you remember like every time like Freddy. Mercury did something brilliant they. would have Brian May they do a a panin. closeup of him just looking like in awe. and astonished and that's maybe pushing. it doing that once in a movie but they. did that every like 15 or 20 minutes was. it kind of like that same sentiment it. wasn't so much that and again I only. watch the first act before I realized it.

was just it was just really sanitized. and like a feel-good type of. thing I got so not the real story. similar yeah right exactly this is not a. this is not a feel-good story I wonder. if it was performance art you. accidentally stumbled upon no I mean it. there was some tough stuff in there it's. not like it was completely like hey this. is great but it kind of wre of like an. Awakenings kind of thing and I liked. Awakenings I got it all right all right. I liked Awakenings too but it sounds. like what you're describing as more.

along the lines greatest showman like. that kind of sanitization I didn't see. that okay did you no but remember we did. that episode just tearing it apart we. hadn't even seen it we're comfortable. doing that at times yeah kind of kind of. uh so the first guy was in his late 50s. Joseph Cassell 58 he had been in the. hospital for about 20 years and was. Canadian born and raised in Quebec and. he was named after. uh his after Josephine his female.

relative in his family named Joseph and. I think the the big takeaway from his. childhood was that it was not good uh. very abusive father um very. quick-tempered man who abused his mom. and his mom actually died while giving. birth to her ninth kid and so he had a. rough go of it from the beginning I. think his name actually was Josephine as. well and he went by Joseph so he he uh. wanted to be a writer I think did you.

say he was 58 at the time yeah okay and. um he uh did not really take to working. outside of the house um he and his wife. um did not have a very like good. relationship necessarily he didn't want. kids she did they ended up having three. daughters and he later on came to. believe that um they were not his. children after all and that that may. have been correct um but then thing. started to take kind of a turn for the.

worst and that um he started to become. really paranoid he started to accuse. people of poisoning his food he became a. bit of a hoarder especially with books. and um probably the greatest crime a man. could commit in the midcentury America. he did not want to work right so that. was basically that he ended up um. getting sent to a an asylum in Canada. and then on to iilani eventually and. he'd been um been in elany for I think.

about 20 years or at least in and out of. the hospital system for about 20 years. and for about 10 of those years he had. been he had decided that he was he was. God or Jesus Christ or both yeah and by. the time he got around to uh roich or. roich found him he was in a pretty bad. state after those 20 years he had about. half of his teeth left in his mouth he. was still hoarding books uh carrying. around books everywhere mhm and when you.

know when asked who he was he said his. name was Joseph and he said that I am. God and I guess roich said well you'll. do just. fine Splendid um yeah so Joseph uh. despite you know the his inability to. take care of himself and you know um the. fact that he hoarded and all of that he. was a very sharp person so so remember. remember to keep that in mind like that. he was he was very sharp and a good. writer as well Clyde um and these are.

these men's names were changed Clyde. Benson he was 70 he'd been hospitalized. for the last 17 years he was in pretty. rough shape he really was and I R. definitely starts to recognize that. pretty quickly after meeting Clyde and. ends up almost letting him just stay in. the group even though he's not really. participating any longer but um Clyde. was apparently raised in a overprotected. manner and didn't really learn how to.

make his own decisions and kind of ended. up stunted as a result um which you can. make your way through life like that if. you if you want to but he ended up uh. turning to alcohol and became a a really. um hardcore alcoholic to where it was. starting to wreck his life um and. apparently that came. into um collision with a diagnosis of. paranoid schizophrenia at some point. right yeah and you know it seems like.

the drinking was the um anytime you have. a undiagnosed condition like this and. you you pour alcoholism on top of it or. any kind of you know drug addiction it's. going to it's just going to be even. worse and uh eventually he was arrested. for public. drunkenness uh it was a pretty violent. arrest and in jail he was violent and he. was saying he was Jesus Christ that he. was God and that he was reborn through. his his first wife Shirley uh I believe.

she had passed away and he did get. remarried um and it was Shirley the. Queen of Heaven and at this point they. committed him to a mental hospital when. he was 53 where he got that diagnosis. and um he was he was the one that was. easily the most uh far gone and tough. toughest to reach and sort of walked. around mumbling he also didn't have a. mini if any of his teeth and uh but. occasionally would like still had that.

violence in him where he would have. these sort of violent outbursts but then. kind of calm down again yeah and when he. did he was very direct into the point. and um by I don't think he was actually. physically violent was he I don't think. so I think it just could be scary at. times right so he would say things like. I am him see now understand that like. that was the extent of how he would. explain that he was God he didn't need. it to be challenged and if you did try. to challenge it he would just shut you. down kind of thing in a very um yeah.

like you said kind of a scary way so. Leon was uh perhaps one of the saddest. of the three cases in that he was had. only been hospitalized for about 5 years. he was younger he was 38 years old and. he was um the the snap judgment is great. because they had his two initial. graduate assistants on uh Richard bonier. and Ron hoppy so like real firsthand. experience on the podcast and they were. saying that he was the one that broke.

their heart the most because he was the. one that most likely could have been uh. rehabilitated and uh it just tore them. up that they and they liked him a lot he. was a real personable guy and would it. was very engaging with his stories and. they really thought that they could have. helped him had it not been uh you know. in part by what happened with roich. which is sad because that means that R. made things much much worse for these. people and that's something to really. that there were three men who were. living you know their delusional lives.

in this state mental hospital but they. were generally unmolested until they. were M they were dragged into this study. and messed with like in ways that you. just don't do to other people you know. and that their lives probably were worse. far worse than they they would have been. had they never met Milton Roe yeah so. lon's deal was uh his mother was um. almost certainly schizophrenic as well. and had delusions religious delusions so.

he was raised in a household with these. uh with basically a a religious fanatic. and uh that impacted him from the very. beginning uh of course he was ended up. diagnosed with schizophrenia as well but. growing up in I mean in that kind of. environment definitely I think led to. the Christ. thing for sure yeah and he had like. there was a time where he was living a. normal life he served in World War II um. he worked at different jobs uh back in.

Detroit um he tried to go to college he. was trying to make a life for himself. but he um suffered from fatigue which I. looked up is apparently a really tough. comorbidity with um psychotic. disorders um and it's like got a a. terrible positive feedback where you. know the more tired you get the the. worse your disorder is and the worse. your disorder is the harder it can be to. sleep and it's just not good so he had. that and then he also started hearing. voices himself um that were telling him.

that he was Jesus Christ and that didn't. really Jive very well with his mother's. own religious fanaticism because he saw. that she was you know worshiping these. other what he considered Idols right and. he went on a um a bit of a violent tear. once removing all of the uh all the. pictures of the Saints and breaking all. of the figurines and all that stuff and. demanding that his mother worship him as. Jesus Christ and threatening that if she. didn't he would strangle her um and so.

that was enough to get him locked up for. good he'd already been locked up one. time for a brief period and then about 6. months after that he was locked up um. from then until the time that he met. Milton Ro right and that was Walton. gogins man sorry so he uh he went by not. Leon and again Leon was a fake name that. roich gave him for the book but um he. went by Dr Domino dominum at Rex rerum. simplest christianis purest Mentalist.

doctor which is Latin for Lord of lords. King of Kings simple Christian boy. psychiatrist but he asked everyone to. call him Rex for short and they said. thanks sure appreciate that and he was. he was like you said like um the most. probably the most personable he like. Joseph he was very sharp too but also. like from a very um a very. early stage he saw quite clearly what. Rog was trying to do and he thought that. it was morally repugnant um that that it.

was not a nice thing to do to somebody. that you shouldn't mess with people like. that and he said as much multiple times. throughout the study yeah so this is. when he hires those two grad assistants. is when he finds the guys gets this. experiment going in. Earnest and um you know his hypothesis. was that if I can have these three men. confront one another about them being. the real Christ that it could Rock them.

into what he saw as reality and uh and. get them out of these delusions and that. didn't happen well it didn't happen at. all through the experiment but initially. they what they did was they really dug. in and uh they each had their own way of. doing so but they each dug in and said. no no no I am the real Christ and they. each had different sort of methods of. dealing with the others but none of them. wavered initially no and and it was like. really um it was kind of in in in of.

itself just that finding that not only. did they not have their identities. shattered but they just re rebuilt and. reinforced their identities however they. they could find a way to do it to their. own satisfaction that's a pretty big. psychological finding in and of itself. you know although it doesn't seem worth. putting these men through that just to. find that out you know yeah for sure um. I think Joseph said. uh Joseph was more one to sort of laugh.

it off uh he said there's nothing wrong. yesterday I knew I was what I am today I. am what I am I'm not worried about. losing my identity uh and we also should. point out that Joseph uh and this was. portrayed in the movie too by Peter. Dinklage he was spoke with an English. accent he thought he was or convinced. himself that he was from England that he. was descendant of royalty and that the. hospital was an English stronghold don't. think I didn't notice you just slipped. Peter Dinklage in there I know that only.

leaves one more so I don't need to do. the. third so um one of the other things. about Joseph was his his interpretation. of why they were there in this study why. the three of these men had been brought. together was so that they could sort out. with the other two that they weren't. Christ that he was the one who was. actually Christ so he could do his work. here on Earth uh better without having. these two um basically harassing him or. whatever whatever so then Leon um like I.

was saying Leon was the one who kind of. saw the most through R's um saw R's. intentions and saw that they were just. wrong um and like Clyde I think Clyde. said that um that they were uh a rise. that's what he he considered the other. two or a hick uhhuh um Joseph said you. know I am who I am and and also by the. way we all know that I'm really God and. then Leon he said that um he said the.

other two were instrumental gods they. were hollowed out Gods uh they were. possibly dead already and machines were. operating them and making them say these. things but even in that like he wasn't. attacking them personally it was what he. felt forced to explain his position and. so that's what he said his position was. but he what he as he was saying this he. would turn to Joseph he would turn to. Clyde and he would say you know I I uh I. mean this you know respectfully I I.

don't mean to be to tear you down. whatever your belief is your belief and. I don't want and I'm not trying to take. it from you I have my beliefs and you. have your beliefs and that's that's good. enough and so through that kind of. um like truce that was kind of. established between these three men they. basically kept the researchers at Bay. the researchers would try to come in and. bust things up and get them to like. argue or you know make them confront one. another but if when left alone those.

three men just generally did not argue. about who was God they avoided the. subject altoe and just let the other. ones be and and just kind of entered. this Live and Let Live kind of position. which I think is is pretty heart. heartening you know it is and that was. that was one of the things that came. through on that uh snap judgment with. the two research assistants was that. their take was that these men were. generally like after the initial sort of. denial stuff um that they were generally. pretty respectful and wanted to give.

each other the space to believe that. they were Christ if they wanted to and. this what that showed was empathy and. that's something that none of them saw. coming um at this point roich is being. um kind of uh hassled by these two grad. assistants saying Hey listen man these. guys are kind of okay with this and. you're taking this thing too far and. eventually he was he ignored them. basically and they quit before this next.

phase starts oh okay and uh because they. didn't agree with what was going on. because they saw these three guys that. were generally respectful for one. another they saw um R would do things. like a journalist wrote a story about. them at one point uh that was obviously. not flattering at all to the three. christs and roich read this aloud to. them like he was just trying to push. their buttons and initiate this conflict. and the two grat assistants eventually. were like we're out of here yeah that. story in particular it was about how. roich was treating three psychotic men.

who thought they were Christ and to read. that to them is it's really mean again. he was trying to see what would happen. if they they were confronted with their. identities being considered delusional. by other people and um and Leon in. particular didn't like that he said that. a a a doctor is a um or a person who's. supposed to be a doctor is supposed to. lift up build up guide direct Inspire he. said that what what you've just done is. deploring and R said you know deploring. I've traveled 75 miles in snow and storm.

to come see you and Leah said yes but. what was your intention in coming to see. me sir um and so he didn't he didn't put. up with r's BS at all which was pretty. cool you know to to to hold delusions. and to have your delusions attacked like. that and then to to to be able to push. back but also in still a respectful way. is I think Leon's one of these one of. the great unsung heroes of of 20th. century America totally. uh should we take a break before phase. two yeah I say we take a break man all.

right we'll be right back. [Music]. [Music].

so before stage two starts when things. get really unethical uh well not before. this was kind of part of the unethical. the two grad assistant assistants had. left and he hires this new Young Pretty. Woman as a grad assistant and basically. tells her to flirt with Leon and to see. if he can make her make him fall in love. with her and that's exactly what. happened and Leon fell in love with her. and was destroyed when he basically came. to realize on his own that that was. never going to happen for.

him man bral keeps getting better and. better yeah yeah when those when those. grad assistants said you've gone too far. I think roich probably said something. along the lines of too far I haven't. even begun to go too far Richard Gear. just watch what's next yeah but there. was like upbeat music whilea he was. saying yeah like Salsbury. Hill exactly that is exactly what I was. thinking of thank you for putting it. into words Chuck so what happened next. so what happened next is as follows.

there roich basically saw like these. guys are not going for this for this the. the level of ping that I've been doing. I'm going to really kind of turn up the. heat and he wondered if you took the um. members people that were um part of. these these patients delusional belief. systems and personified them like. pretended you were them say started. communicating with them through letters. or whatever um what would happen could. you conceivably get these people to. abandon their delusions under the.

guidance of these authority figures that. were actually part of their delusions. it's really kind of mindboggling when. you lay it out in like a flowchart like. that you know yeah that this like just. kept getting worse and worse so he. identified these authority figures in. all three of them I guess to his credit. he laid off of Clyde uh because I mean I. don't know if it was so much empathy as. it was he knew he wasn't getting very. far with Clyde or maybe was scared of. what would happen if Clyde broke you. know yeah cuz Clyde was definitely could.

be a little scary but so he laid off of. Clyde but he found that um Joseph uh. said that a superintendent of the. hospital named Dr Yoder uh y o d r was. his dad and Leon said that he had a wife. uh he had a couple his wife the Blessed. Virgin. Mary uh who was an uncle reincarnated as. Michael the Archangel. Archangel archangel those are two. different so he was married to the. Blessed Virgin Mary and had that Uncle.

yeah he had those two mhm but that there. was there was he wasn't married to his. uncle he had another wife later on named. Madame Yeti woman after he stopped being. married to the Blessed Virgin Mary. because his uncle Michael the AR. Archangel married blessed the Blessed. Virgin Mary right it sounds a little. confusing but when you're dealing with. stuff like this I think it just has to. be a little confusing well the upshot of. it is ke started posing as um as Madame.

Yeti woman um and started a letter. writing campaign as Madame Yeti woman. basically reaching out to say hey Leon. um I just want to say hi and I'm. thinking of you and let's start talking. so there was correspondence that was. established as um as Leon's delusion Del. like wife metam Yeti woman yeah and he. we should point out he supposedly had. gotten not supposedly I think he did get.

the hospital's permission uh to sign off. on this as long as he said listen it's. all going to be positive stuff I'm not. going to be writing them letters saying. to go start a fight or anything like. that um so I'm going to send them. positive message uh messages and and I'm. going to stop if this becomes upsetting. to these guys and so they said sure go. ahead yeah and so he did he did go ahead. um first with Leon I believe and by this. time Leon had um one of the things that. he had done to transform his identity.

was to become Dr righteous ideal dong or. Dr RI dong and apparently the head nurse. asked him directly like can I please not. call you Dr dong uh and he said yes you. can call me RI but everybody else called. him Dr RI dong and he did this roich. concluded to basically make himself not. worthy of of being harassed anymore but. he was still secretly God like he knew. he was God he was just pre pretending to. be something else and during that period. he became married to Madame Yeti woman.

so R started addressing letters as to Dr. RI dong and basically saying um you know. here's a dollar um why don't you go buy. yourself something nice in the hospital. store and then share the change with. Clyde and Joseph and or um one of the. things that they would do is they would. take turns between the three patients is. who was going to lead the session that. day and one of the things you did when. you led the session was you chose what. song Everybody's sng at the beginning. and at the end of the session which is.

adorable um and so Madame Yeoman. suggested that uh he choose Onward. Christian Soldiers and he chose Onward. Christian Soldiers and so like to roich. is seeing like there's this there's like. an actual influence that that is being. exerted by this delusional figure and. also it demonstrates that that Leon is. showing like he definitely believes. Madame Yeti woman's a person for sure. yeah and what broke it was uh as posing.

as Madame Yeti woman asked Leon to stop. using the name Dr. dung uh the name thing seems to have. been a sticking point with a lot of. people or maybe he just thought that. that would since he held on to that so. strongly that would have been like the. toughest thing to make him do uhhuh and. uh that was sort of it he was asked. about the letter and Leon doesn't really. say anything about uh asking to be to. drop the name do D he just starts. talking more and more about God being.

both male and female and insane insane. and said I don't care for the insanity. of God and then said I don't want any. more letters and basically kind of shut. it down and so with with those um with. Leon's letters in particular there was a. couple like really sad things like the. whole thing was sad to begin with but um. there's this passage in the book where. Leon gets a letter and and roich. realizes that he's holding back tears. and he starts to ask him like why are. you like you know are you happy he.

saides I'm very happy it's a very. pleasant feeling to have someone think. of you like like he was he was moved to. Tears by the idea that Madame Yeti woman. was was writing to him and and talking. about caring for him and sending him. money to go buy himself things with um. and rather than just say like oh we. might want to back this off R used it to. to step that up and arranged for a. meeting with Madame Yeti woman yeah. but there was no madame Yeti woman who. was supposed to show up he was just he.

was going to get stood up from the. outset but still um uh Leon went to go. meet Madame Yeti woman and and had his. heart broken I think it was after that. that he stopped responding to the. letters yeah and you know when he said I. don't want these letters anymore I don't. want to receive them you would think. that that's when R would say all right. well let's just stop this all together. but he didn't because he remembered that. uh Leon had another authority figure in. his life which was his uh Uncle uh.

George Bernard Brown aka the Archangel. Michael and so he said hey I'll have. someone call and pose as his uncle now. and this didn't work from the beginning. Leon uh I guess the voice was just so. far off or maybe Leon was just really. wise to it at this point uh said you. know no no no this isn't this is even. close to the voice uh goodbye and hung. up up and then they asked him about the. call and he said I don't believe in.

mental torture sir so it seems like he. was sort of on to him at this point or. you know was on to him from the. beginning but on to him about this ruse. I don't think he was on to him from the. beginning I think that he bought no I. mean from the beginning of the. experiments he was we oh gotcha I see. what you're saying but yeah but it's. really easy to forget because you're. reading R's accounts that these men. weren't in on the idea that it was from. R they believed that these letters were. coming from oh sure they're they're. delusional figures yeah that's the whole.

point which makes it just even more. gut-wrenching when you stop and remember. that you know yeah so then he says okay. all right Leon's done I'm I'm done. writing letters to him who can I write. letters to next and he moves on to. Joseph right yeah so this was the one uh. where the superintendent uh the. fictional Dr Yoder was the authority. figure for Joseph uh who he saw as a. father figure and so of course RI is. going to play up this whole Father. Figure thing in the letters saying that.

he loved him like his son he just wanted. the best things for him and if you. remember from the original sort of quick. bio Joseph's father was awful and. abusive so uh he's really playing into. his deepest sort of insecurities here. yeah he said be assured that I will. always love you just exactly like a. father who deeply loves his own son it's. really tough to even research this stuff. yeah so um so. just like with um with Leon uh through.

these letters as Dr Yoder he tried to. get Joseph to start doing stuff and uous. stuff at first like it saying stop he. didn't he stopped saying that he was. from England and that he was from Quebec. started going to church services that. kind of stuff so there was an influence. on Joseph just like there was on on Leon. using their delusional um characters or. delusional friends authority figures. whatever and I think even Dr Yoder. prescribed or the fake doctor Yoder. prescribed Placebo for Joseph's stomach.

ailments he had like digestive problems. or stomach hurt and these Placebo pills. just fixed him right up yeah so the. stomach pills placebos supposedly worked. and then he said all right well that. worked so I'm going to give you pills to. basically cure your mind and if you want. to fix fix yourself for good take these. pills uh which is I mean this is so far. off the charts of unethical like I I I.

can't even describe how far off the. charts it is and he said basically I. think he said he gave him an ultimatum. he says I'm only going to continue to. give these pills that will supposedly. make your mind right if you admit that. you're in a mental hospital and it's not. an English stronghold and Joseph finally. said like sign something and Joseph said. no I'm not going to sign this and he cut. off this Placebo medication that he. believed might be fixing his brain and.

it kind of petered out after that and it. was just like it's just brutal to think. about these guys going through this like. hope that they're getting better and it. was all fake yeah he apparently stopped. writing to Dr Yoder and um moved on to. JFK started writing letters to JFK. asking to be one of his speech writers. because remember he was a writer as well. right so R is like okay all right let's. see what's next oh nothing's next this. is the end of the line he finally. realized like okay this is not going. anywhere not only had he not at all.

moved Clyde's delusions or Joseph's. delusions the only person whose. delusions had changed at all was lon's. and his had just gotten more complex and. intricate certainly not any closer to. reality they got further away from. reality because of this influence from. um from roich and his his experiment and. he has like a pretty rich little uh. admission in the book that he says that.

we do not know to what extent our very. presence behavior and questions may have. influenced the results. obtained which is bizarre to say because. the whole point of the experiment was to. influence these people through these. this experiment so it's a really weird. thing that he even put it in there um. from some of the stuff that I've read. kind of picking apart this book at the. end it really just kind of Peters out. like he's just kind of slashing in the. air with his sword trying to figure out.

you know what the point was of all of. this stuff um and even without like a a. satisfying conclusion or end uh it ended. up getting published in 1964 and became. like a a really big success in the field. of psychology but also got widely. criticized right out of the gate because. even though this was mid-century America. we're talking about mental patients in. mid-century America uh who had very. little rights or or were treated very. poorly like there were still like a lot. of people around like you don't do this.

to human beings this is not okay not. everybody did but some you know some. critics definitely came out. immediately yeah it took r a long time. though to really kind of come to terms. with what he had done and uh he. eventually did though uh about 17 years. later they re reissued the book in. 1981 and he wrote a new forward uh he. admitted in interviews in other places. as well that he uh was also you know in.

a sense suffering from god-like. delusions and that he was playing God. with these men and uh regretted it he. regretted publishing uh he said I regret. having written and publish a study when. I did I don't know if that means that he. wishes he could have reflected more on. it or what but yeah I don't know either. uh he did sort of recant and say he. didn't do the right thing um it's worth. pointing out that this was uh six years. into. uh his suffering from spinal cancer so I.

don't know if that had you know if. knowing the end was near for him had. something to do with his uh sort of. self-reflection but he eventually died. in 1988 at the age of 70 after a 13-year. battle with spinal cancer and um you. know left. the social psychology World sort of. rocked uh like like I said I studied. this in college and it became sort of. like the Stanford Prison experience. right it became worth studying but not.

for the reasons that they initially. launched the study to begin with no he. finally figured out the point of the. book and the point of the book was for. him to figure out that it was unethical. what he was doing and to finally come to. terms with what he' done to these poor. men and that you have a right to just be. left alone and not have your identity. challenged no matter what you believe. you are who you believe you are and so. he actually changed his his methods he. his his General belief in the idea of. Bel belief systems um remain the same.

but he changed his tactics in that he. got involved in self-confrontation where. he would try to present people with you. know self-examination where they would. examine what their values were what. their beliefs were and then they would. kind of be challenged on that like okay. you believe in Freedom you place a high. value on freedom but you also rated. equality pretty low but isn't equality. freedom for everybody so you care about. your freedom but not other people's. freedom how does that really Jive and. then the Hope was that they would go.

back and self-reflect and be like no I. really do care about freedom I do care. about other people maybe I should care. more about equality and improve as a. person and that's ultimately how he. ended up making his name starting in the. 70s yeah and I got to tell you when when. you read some of his um regret about it. uh he says things like or he said things. like you know and and in the end someone. was cured and it was me uh it it's it. just that all bothered me a little bit. too how he he still made it about.

himself somehow even though he did say. he regretted it and everything I just I. never heard as much um regret about. these three. men and and just and and putting them in. the positions of like they were the ones. who helped me out in the end was just G. I didn't like that I know exactly what. you mean it just it's still smacks of. self- involvement and egotism and also. like what happened to these men after. the experiment was done they were just.

cast right back into the general. population right like used Klean necks. basically to to deal with what they just. been through it's just it's just rotten. all around for sure and it at the very. least it does exist to to to make Milton. R Keach feel better. right uh you got anything else no I mean. if you want to see some of his later. work that you were talking about the. value stuff there are all kinds of. really wacky YouTube videos from people. about that stuff nice and if you want to. see the movie that they remade about.

this don't n um well since I said don't. see that movie it's time of course for. listener mail. everybody I'm going to call this uh a. guy who has the same step on a crack. thing as I do okay this is from Jared. Miller uh hey guys I got to say Chuck is. the only other person I've heard to. express the same compulsion that I had. have if I step on a surface that is. different from the majority of where I'm.

walking I try to get my other foot to. have the same sensation this can be the. line between the sidewalk segments or a. traction sticker an unpaved patch Etc I. got to say Jared it's the same with me. it's not just cracks can be anything. sure uh even which part of the foot is. affected same with me dude if I do it on. my heel I have to do the next one with. my heel it's very interesting uh I've. even found myself doing it with the. colors of tiles on a patterned floor. same here here uh for me it's about. symmetrical Sensations I sometimes.

realize I'm doing it when I'm eating uh. and have equal chewing time on each side. I don't do that uh once you're like Cher. you're so weird yeah you're really out. there uh once I became aware of it at a. fully conscious level I also became. self-conscious about it and tried. different things to break myself of the. Habit at times it's been an extreme as. Extreme as forcing myself to maintain an. even gate uh no matter what yeah have. done that. while consciously reminding myself that. Sensations are temporary and that it.

will even uh even out or go away. especially if I ignore it uh thanks for. all the hours of entertainment you were. an early discovery of mine in the. podcast world back in 2009 and almost. none of the shows I started listening to. back then are still. going that's our motto Jared just keep. doing it just no matter what everybody. tells you to stop please God stop don't. quit you just you don't listen so that's. uh Jared and Anaheim by way of Idaho way. to go Jared from all over the place that.

was think Idaho or was it Iowa I don't. remember sorry Idaho I know that's the. worst thing to confuse. apologize um so uh let's see if you want. to get in touch with us like Jared did. um please email us won't you you can. send us an email to stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio for more podcasts my heart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple.

podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].