Selects: The Taliesin Massacre | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everybody. We're inching toward the. end of the year. It's December 10th uh. 2020 in co time and uh we are here to. tell you about the episode or at least. I'm here uh the Talies massacre. Uh it's. a massacre that happened at the. perhaps Frank Lloyd Wright's greatest. works in Wisconsin. And I picked this. one because uh geez by this time uh I. will have long done this in real time. but uh I am going and have went to the.

Green Bay Packers uh the Atlanta Falcons. at Lambeau Field playing the Green Bay. Packers and uh I knew this game was on. the calendar and I went with my good. friend Adam Pranica of the greatest. generation and my good friend from high. school Robert Chahade and we all met up. in Green Bay um with Adam's uncle uh. Uncle Pete Pranica. by the way, who is. the voice of the Memphis Grizzlies. So, I I can say this with confidence even. though it hasn't happened yet. I know I. had a great time talking to Uncle Pete. because I've long wanted to meet him and. I'm a big fan of the NBA. [music] My.

mom's from Memphis and so I know we had. a lot to talk about. It's kind of weird. cuz I know this is all true, but it. hasn't happened yet. Uh but, uh on my. list, I don't know if I made it or not. I guess time will tell. I wanted to go. see Tal Essen. I know we're playing golf. uh at Whispering Pines, and I know that. went well. Uh, I don't know how I shot. yet, but I know that Whispering Pines is. lovely and it had to be great. [music]. Um, unless it was pouring down rain, but. who cares? Play in the rain. Uh, but, uh, like I said, maybe I'll follow up. and let you know if I actually made it. out to Talasin. I'm not sure if the. calendar um had enough space, [music].

but at the very least, I was well. prepared with my knowledge of the. Talesin massacre, and you will be too if. you listen right now. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, [music] a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and Jerry's here. Uh, and this is.

Stuff You Should Know. Uh, the long. awaited Franklidd Wright edition. >> Sort of. Yeah, [laughter] kind of. >> I mean, you know, it it's not a full. biography, but it is definitely covers. some of his a very dark period of his. life. >> Oh, yeah. One of the darker periods that. any artist could have. And make no. mistake, Frank Lidd Wright was an. artist. He was an aristeist of. architecture. >> Yeah. Have you ever How many houses of.

his have you seen or buildings? >> I've seen a bunch. Um I've been to Holly. Hawk in Los Angeles. have been to uh a. Eonian. I can't remember which one in. Washington by the um one of the I can't. remember what other historic house it's. by. They moved it. Um I've been to. there's a Eonian in Alabama, Chuck in. Florence, Alabama, which is really neat. Been to Falling Water. Um been to Talas. and West. I think that's it. >> Yeah, I've been to a handful myself.

I've been to one in Tulsa and couple in. LA. Of course, the Guggenheim. I think. we've both been there in. >> I have not. I have not. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> All the times you've been to New York. and all the museums and you never step. foot in the Guggenheim. >> It's true. I've never been in the. Guggenheim. Sadly enough, I saw a movie. where there's a shootout in the. Guggenheim one. [laughter]. >> I highly recommend going to the. Guggenheim. It's great. >> Okay. I thought it was George Castanza. that designed the Guggenheim, not Frank.

Lord. Wright. [clears throat]. >> That's right. He always wanted to be an. architect. >> That's right. [laughter]. He's my favorite line for that uh. episode is when he talks about uh the. redesign plans of the Guggenheim and. they go, "Really?" He goes, "Yeah, really didn't even take that long.". >> That's right. Yeah. [laughter] He's. saying that he he was the one who who. redesigned it. >> Like it's impressive that it was just a. really quick job, >> right? [laughter]. Yeah. That's a classic. Um but we're not. talking about the Guggenheim today, Chuck. We're not even talking about. Holly Hawk House. We're talking about.

specifically Talesin which is widely. regarded as um Frank Lloyd Wright's. genuine bonafide masterpiece like his. greatest work ever. Um I think it was it. it's said that it's his um autobiography. written in wood and stone that it's just. him and not just him in a specific time. and place but for like decades worth of. work. His earliest work to his latest. work all showed up and appeared over.

time at Talesin. >> Yeah. I mean there's a lot there. Um it. it was his home uh at times it was his. studio uh a school um an 800 acre. estate. >> Mhm. >> Uh this was family land. It was it was. his favorite hill in Wisconsin in the. river valley there where his Welsh. grandparents originally homesteaded. >> Yeah. >> And so it was very personal to him. So. he did things like uh make the roof so.

it doesn't uh leak water into the. offices below like some of his other. properties. >> Exactly. [laughter]. Yeah. He wasn't one to just move his. desk. Right. >> Right. >> So um this this uh particular house and. it was a and it still is. It's a huge. enormous house. I think it's 21,000. square feet. Um, it's a classic example. of what's called the prairie style. Yeah. >> Which is a style of architecture. considered to be the first genuine. American style of architecture um that.

Franklidd Wright founded back in I think. the 1890s, maybe the late 1890s. And it. has it takes its inspiration from the. surrounding environment. It's meant to. blend in with the environment, work with. the environment rather than to dominate. it. So there's a lot of horizontal. lines, a lot of natural materials, a lot. of woodworking and um Talescent is very. much in that style. Um I think it has. 524 windows which is a lot of windows.

and um it also has no gutters. There's a. lot of canalvered roofs which kind of. overhang pretty far. Um, so there wasn't. necessarily a need for gutters, but I. read that Franklidd Wright specifically. didn't want gutters because he wanted. icicles to form on the eaves of the roof. so he could look out of those 524. windows in the Wisconsin winter and see. all the icicles hanging. >> Do you like the prairie homes that. style? >> Yeah. Yeah, I Yeah, I do. My problem.

with Frank Lidd Wright's work is that. it's so dated and oldtimey that it. almost like it almost makes me um a. combination of scared and nauseous. You know what I'm talking about? >> Sure. >> Have you ever looked at a wicker. wheelchair from like the turn of the. last century? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You just kind of get the creeps from it. for some reason. >> Okay. You get that same uh feel. I mean. this you know he did the bulk of his. work a hundred years ago you know.

somewhere in that range. >> but it was also like it was also very. technologically um advanced and like he. was just doing some really interesting. stuff. So, the way that a very dated, once technologically advanced piece of. work can kind of cole that weird feeling. out of you, but at the same time, I'm. like in genuine awe of this stuff you. did. Like, Falling Water is one of my. favorite houses in the entire world. >> Sure. I mean, it's just amazing.

>> What about you? You like the prairie. style? >> I I [clears throat] like them. All. right. They're they're fine. Um, some of. them, and you know, I have some here in. the neighborhood that pop up every now. and then. Some newer builds are in the. prairie style. >> And I I like them more than some other. kinds and less than some other kinds. Let's just say that. >> You uh you like Craftsman? >> Well, sure. I live in a Craftsman. That's that's my favorite. But. >> I like Craftsman, too. I think they're. good. I. >> appre I mean, I love a a highly slick. modern home. I I don't want to live in.

one, but I love them. >> I would not want to live in one either. Those are hit or miss with me. Like some. of them are just too just god awful. Some of them are just when they hit the. nail on the head, you're like, "Wow, that's one of the best houses anyone's. ever designed and built, but they miss.". It's almost like documentaries and. horror movies. There's a lot of them, but only very very few like are truly. great. That's my That's my impression of. modern homes. >> Yeah, I'm into We're into architecture. though as a as a couple, Emily and I. We.

watch a couple of. >> I thought you and me. >> Great. Well, us too. Uh, it's a triad. Well, I guess throw Yumi in there and. then I guess we'd be of. >> course, >> but uh we we have a couple of shows that. we love to watch that are uh there's one. called Grand Designs on Netflix that I. highly recommend. >> Uh and oh man, what's the other one? There's this cup, not a married couple, but a pair that travels the world. >> The great British architecture bake off. >> No, [laughter] that's not it. I can't. remember what it's called, but Grand.

Designs is really good. I mean, and they. follow these, you know, sort of. impossibly built houses designed and. built by these incredible lunatic. dreamers who are obsessed with sort of a. thing. Uh, it seems to be the common. thread is these obsessives. >> and it leads to something beautiful and. great, you know, usually. >> For sure. Yeah. So, um, one of the. things about Franklidd Wright is that he. is, including during his lifetime, he's. considered one of the greatest. architects to ever live. Certainly the.

most popular popularly. well-known maybe I guess you'd put it. like anybody who's ever heard of any. kind of architecture even vaguely is. probably familiar with Franklidd Wright. >> Agreed. So when he when he um put all of. himself into Tales and he was building a. home for himself and I think it was. completed in 1911 and like it's worth. pointing out he was returning to his. childhood home to the valley where his. his clan like settled like if you if you.

look around Spring Green Wisconsin. everybody's got the name Lloyd in there. somewhere like his maternal ancestors. settled that area and he he was. literally building on this hill his. favorite hill when he was a child like. you were saying, but he was doing this. in the midst of one of the biggest. scandals like any architect's ever gone. through. >> Yeah. So, uh, as you'll see through this. show and if you know anything about the. man, uh, Frank Lloyd Wright had a bit of. a wandering eye and a bit of a.

philandering habit. And he had a, uh, an. extrammarital affair with a woman named. uh, M A M Ah, uh, Mama. >> Mama. >> Horthwick. Huh? I don't know. I've I've. been testing it out, too. I said mama. >> Mama. >> Sure. >> Borthwick. And she was um you know, they. met in 1903. Wright was in his mid-30s. at the time. He was already really. famous as an architect. And he was. commissioned to design a house for her.

and her husband uh Edwin Cheney. And. they were uh it was going to be built. there in Wisconsin, pretty close to. Chicago where Franklidd Wright was at. the time. uh she was pregnant in her. mid-30s at the time with her second. child and got really involved in in uh. sort of working with Franklidd Wright. very closely and that sort of you know. the the classic story at first it starts. out platonic one thing leads to another. and before you know it they're bumping. uglies.

>> That's right. Smashing as the younger. kids say from what I. >> Yeah, I just heard that for the first. time the other day. Didn't know that was. a thing. >> So it's a thing though. Um, so Franklidd. Wright by this time had six kids of his. own and he had made a name for himself. like around Chicago building homes, designing homes for um the the wellto-do. especially in the Oak Park neighborhood. Uh, apparently just between 1900 in. 1910, he designed 50 prairie houses. So.

he'd made a name for himself. But. apparently by the time uh I think 1908. was when he no 1907 when they started. their affair. By the time 1907 rolled. around he was getting kind of tired of. doing the same thing. It's kind of like. he was cursed like this this school of. architecture that he developed was so. popular that he that that's all anybody. wanted and he had gotten bored with it. by that time. So he seems to have been. unfulfilled professionally and kind of.

took it out on his family in about the. worst way you could possibly take things. out on your family short of. cutting them up with a machete. [laughter]. Yeah. Uh by 1908 it was a pretty much. well-known uh open secret uh in Chicago. and of that high society in Chicago that. this affair was going on. And uh he was. sort of looked down on from his friends. and his neighbors and his peers. >> uh different colleagues. His poor wife.

Kitty was longsuffering because she kind. of stood by his side anyway. Uh and he. realized that he really wanted to leave. his family and he did so. Uh he said, "I. did not know what I wanted. I wanted to. go away." And he did. In September of. 1909, uh Frank left with her, went to. Europe, left his wife and his six kids. behind. >> Uh and here's one of the more selfish. quotes I've ever seen. >> from a husband and father. Uh and this.

was in his autobiography. >> So when family life in Oak Park in that. spring of 1909. conspired against the freedom to which I. had come to feel every soul entitled, I. had no choice. would I keep my. self-respect but to go out a voluntary. exile? >> So he really felt um and you know those. were his words in his autobiography. So. he wasn't he had no illusions about. himself but he very much felt that you. know what I'm Franklidd Wright and I'm a.

man and I deserve this by my right. >> Yeah. So those are two key points. He's. a man, so he deserved it. But more than. anything, he was a legend in his own. mind, which was sustained and and. verified by the public at large. But he. was Franklidd Wright. So more than. anybody, he deserved that to to go do. whatever he wanted. And you know, whatever the consequences were for other. people emotionally, to hell with that. Um, one other thing that I think is. worth pointing out is that he had money.

problems basically his entire life. despite the fact that I mean this man. designed the Guggenheim. He designed. some of the most iconic um buildings and. and and houses in the United States. And. he had money just coming in by the. truckload, but he would spend it as fast. as he could get it and then some. So at. this point in time when he was um when. he left his family, he apparently left. them in financial straits as well. There. there was um there's a biographer named.

um Paul Hendris. and uh Paul Hendrickson, I'm sorry. and. he points out that there was a $900. grocery bill that um was laying on the. kitchen counter when when uh Franklidd. Wright walked out on his family, which I. mean, at least pay the grocery bill so. the family that you're leaving in a. lurch can eat, you know. >> Yeah. So his uh his mistress left her. two kids uh with her husband. Uh she. went on a train to New York City, met. Frank at the Plaza Hotel. They had a few. days there of uh I guess smashing and.

then uh went to Europe and uh you know. he was famous the world over so it's not. like he could lay low. Very famous face, very famous dresser of fine clothing and. those hats. So he didn't exactly blend. in anywhere he went. So he was found out. in Berlin. Uh Chicago Tribune had a. headline that said leave families. semicolon. Nice little switch there. >> Yeah. elope to Europe. And uh this whole.

time, poor Kitty. Uh she says, "It. appears like any other ordinary mundane. affair with the trappings of what is low. and vulgar. But there's nothing of that. sort about Frank Wright. He is honest. and sincere. I know him. My heart is. with him now. I feel certain that he. will come back.". >> Mhm. >> And uh that's that's one of the saddest. parts about all this is she was sort of. like, "He's just philandering a bit and. he'll come back to us.". >> Yeah, it is sad. but also, you know, whatever his kids were thinking too, like, well, I guess dad doesn't love us. enough to stick around. Um, another, I.

think, kind of telling clue about. Franklidd Wright's enormous arrogance. was he called, um, his and um, uh, what. are we going to call her, Chuck? [laughter]. >> Mama. >> I'm calling her Mama. >> Okay. his and mama's um flight to Europe. to aband after abandoning their their. families. He called it a spiritual. hegura or heiraa. [clears throat]. >> And I I had not seen that word before. And it turns out heiraa or hea h e g i r.

a. >> is what um Muhammad's exodus from. persecution in Mecca was called. And he. left Mecca to go to Medina where he. founded Islam. And to Franklidd Wright, this is what he and his mistress were. doing when they abandoned their families. and fled to Europe. >> Yeah. He he thought a lot of himself. >> He was an sob man. Plain and simple. I. don't like he's a classic example of. like. having to compartmentalize the genius of.

the work and just the complete. horribleness of the person, you know. >> I know. I know. >> But it can be done. It can be done. I I. I disagree with anybody who who says, you know, there's certain exceptions, I'm sure, but anybody who says, well, this person held some pretty pretty. terrible views, so we shouldn't pay any. attention to their work from that point. on, I disagree with that. I think that. there are tons of exceptions to that. rule, although there are tons of. exceptions to the exception to that. rule, too, if that's not confusing.

enough. >> Well, I think it's a personal decision. And if someone wants to never gaze upon. falling waters again, then that's their. choice. >> Totally. It's not like I'm going to, you. know, grab them by the their hair and. like make them look, but I I would. disagree with them and in in a lot of. cases. >> Yeah. Like Manson's music. Fantastic. >> Just beautiful stuff. >> Really good stuff. >> For sure. >> So, uh, Franklidd Wright um returns to. Chicago in 1910. Uh, Mima stayed behind.

[laughter]. She stayed there in Europe for another. year because she was getting a divorce. from Edwin Cheney. >> Uh, and so she stayed there wrapping. that up. Uh, Frank moved back with. Kitty. He had no intention of staying. Uh, and I think it was pretty clear uh. to Kitty at this point cuz she said Mr. Wright, I wonder if he made her call her. that Mr. right reached here Saturday. evening October 8th and he has brought. many beautiful things everything but his. heart I guess and that he has left in.

Germany. >> but he came back a bit of a pariah. >> oh just a tad they were a par they were. paras before there was a woman who grew. up living next door to mama and her. children and she um years later in her. diary recounted a time when her mom. refused to give Franklidd Wright cream. when he came over next door from next. door to borrow some and said that they. were sinners and she wasn't going to. help them out at all. Um, so when they. left for Europe, made headline news for.

leaving their families and then he. returns, moves back in with his family. just long enough to plan his next home. for him and mama. Um, like yeah, the the. people in his social orbit did not take. very kindly to that. professionals, neighbors, friends, gossip colonists, basically everybody in the Midwest who. had anything to do with anything like. we're rejected him and Mamma. >> Yeah. And to boot, when he gets back uh. because he needed seed money for uh for.

his new home, he had a benefactor named. Darwin Martin, and he said, "Hey, listen. I want to build this great. cottage. Uh, and this affair is long. over. And this is going to be a cottage. for my mom. And I promise it's not going. to be our little smash shack. And so. give me $25,000 to get this project. going. He got it. He moved into the home. with his mistress. And I think by.

Christmas 1911, they were officially. living together there in Greenspring. >> Yeah. He said, "Thanks, chump. Thanks. for the money." And because just. trashing Franklidd Wright as a person is. a lot of fun, I want to add this detail. too. Um Darwin Martin, his benefactor, over the course of uh Franklidd Wright's. career, lent Franklidd Wright 75 grand. total. And when the stock market crashed. in 1929, Darwin Martin lost everything. Like he was flat broke. was went from an.

extraordinary extraordinarily wealthy. man to just flat broke for the rest of. his life. Frank Lidd Wright never repaid. any of that money, but he made sure that. when his autobiography came out that. Darwin Martin got a free copy. >> Oh, that's nice. >> Yeah, he really he really pulled that. out at the last minute, didn't he? >> All right, so let's take a break and. we'll come back and talk about things. taking a turn for the worst a few years. later in August of 1914.

>> [music]. >> Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck. [music]. Stuff you should know. [music]. Okay, Chuck. So, let's just go ahead and. get in the wayback. Well, I don't want. to see this. We'll just talk about it. We'll leave the way back machine out of.

this one. Okay. So, on on Saturday, August 15th, 1914, around lunchtime, actually, exactly at lunchtime, um Mama. Borthwick, uh Franklidd Wright's. mistress, longtime mistress, um was. sitting down for lunch on a terrace at. Talesin with her two kids. Uh to his. great credit, Edwin Cheney, her. ex-husband by this time, was not. interested in keeping Mama from seeing. her children as punishment. So they went.

to visit um pretty frequently. Uh and. this was a time when they were visiting. So the three of them were sitting down. to lunch. John, I think he was 10, and. her daughter Martha, who was eight, and. Mama Mama were sitting down to lunch on. the terrace. Okay, just put that in your. your pin. Put that pin in your hat and. smoke it. So, [laughter]. wow, really mixing metaphors. So, uh. there out on the terrace, uh inside in. the dining room, there are five of. Franklidd Wright's employees, uh Emil.

Berdell, Thomas Brunker, David Lindlum, uh Herbert Fritz, and William Weston, and then Weston's son, Ernst. So, they. were all sitting down to eat. Um, I. think put a pin in maybe both of these. scenes. >> Mhm. >> And we'll tell you a little bit about. the handyman of the property uh named. Julian Carlton who in the weeks and. months leading up to this date had been. acting really weird. Uh, he was. aggressive. He was getting in arguments. with other people um acting very.

strangely. He started sleeping with a. hatchet and a sack beside his bed. Uh, he was married and his wife, you know, verified this stuff. um he was talking. about killing people and there was rumor. that he was being let go and that there. was that he and his wife were already. had a a basically a train booked to. Chicago to look for other jobs. So this. is sort of the mindset of what's going. on on with Julian Carlton at the time of. this lunch, >> right? Um so uh Julian was actually so.

he was a handyman but at this point he. he also helped out helped his wife. Gertrude when she was cooking he would. serve. So he served lunch to Mama and. then he served lunch to the five. employees in the dining room and then as. they were they started to eat he. approached um William Weston the foreman. of the whole jam. William Weston was a. pretty important guy around Talies and. asked if he could go get um some. gasoline out of the shed I guess because. he was going to clean some rugs with it.

>> with gasoline. >> Was with gasoline. Yes. >> I guess that was a thing back then. >> Sure. That's some oldtimey rug cleaning. if I've ever heard of it. But um he so. so sure of course go ahead and um things. went really things went downhill really. quickly from from that moment on. >> Yeah. So uh I appreciate you leaving. this part to me. Um Carlton comes back. >> Oh, I'll fill in. Don't worry. >> He's got the gasoline. Uh and he also. has an axe. And the the sequence is a. little bit unclear. I've seen both ways. of which happened first. But he.

slaughtered. uh Mama Borthwick uh Borthwick and her. kids on the porch and then poured. gasoline under the dining room doors and. uh trapped them in the room and set the. dining room and therefore the house on. fire with everyone trapped inside. >> It gets even worse than that though. Um. after he had slaughtered Mama and her. kids with the axe and um set the house. on fire, he went around to a window, a.

dining room window where the people who. were in trapped in the dining room that. had just been set on fire were jumping. to safety from. And as they jumped to. safety, he ran after them and and killed. them with the axe. He would finish them. off. Sometimes they were on fire and he. would hit them in the head with the axe. and and killed them. And there were nine. people who were dying that day and he. managed to kill seven of the nine. Um, three people survived the initial.

assault, the fire and then the picking. off with the axe. The first guy who got. away was named Herb Fritz. He was a. draftsman, a younger guy. I think he was. still a teenager uh who went on to. become an architect, I believe. But he. he was the first one to jump through the. window. And so he was able to get pretty. far away from Julian Carlton before. Carlton noticed that people were jumping. through the window and came around to. pick him off with the axe. >> That's right. Uh William Weston uh got. out of the window. Carlton hit him uh.

with the axe, thought he was dead, but. he wasn't dead. Uh in the meantime, Fritz, like you said, he didn't even. Carlton didn't even know he was gone. So. he actually managed to get to the. neighbors and contact authorities, which. ended up being, you know, ended up sort. of saving a lot of the house. uh because. they helped put it out. And the other. guy who managed to at least get out the. window was David Lindlam. Uh he escaped. with Fritz. >> So Fritz and Limbleum like when they ran. to that house, it was like a half a mile. away, which is really significant that. Limbbleum was able to do it because he.

was burned so badly that he died from. his burns. And yet one of the last. things he did on Earth was to run a half. a mile to to get help at the house, the. nearest house with a phone. >> Yeah. So, uh, you know, people get. there, they put out the fire. Um, hours. later, uh, they, uh, Carlton was. discovered in the basement of the house. in an asbestous lined boiler room. >> Uh, he went down there to, to die in the. fire, but also doubled up by drinking a. bottle of hydrochloric acid.

>> Mhm. >> Uh, to make sure he did the job. And. neither one of them work. He actually. survived both of those things. I. actually saw that he was in the furnace. because he was trying to survive the. fire and he didn't drink the acid until. he knew he was discovered. >> Oh, see, I saw the opposite. That he. went down to the furnace because he. wanted to die in the home. >> Huh. Yeah. Be the reason the furnace. made sense to me or that he was trying. to survive in the furnace was that if he. couldn't escape from the house, that. would be the safest place because it was.

the middle of August and the furnace. wasn't on. So it would have conceivably. protected him or else it would have. turned into that that bronze bowl. torture thing. You you know the bronze. bowl that you put a human being in then. light a fire under the bull. >> Yeah, I remember that. >> Sounds like a pretty horrible way to. die. Either way, yes, it should be. restated that Julian Carlton drank uh. what he thought was a lethal dose of. hydrochloric acid. Like that's how he. chose to try to end his life. >> Yeah. So there was never any motive.

really rooted out. Um, I clearly looking. back now, he suffered from some kind of. mental illness. >> Uh, I don't think you can just all chalk. it up to a grudge over being fired. because of his behavior over the. previous weeks and months. >> Um, and you know, it's just one of those. things. It was a time where they weren't. diagnosing things like that. So, he. clearly had some form of mental illness, I think. And uh they never conclusively. determined a motive, but like I said, his wife um testified that said, you.

know, we were headed to Chicago. We were. going to get work. Um and he ended up. dying. Uh but he couldn't eat basically. because he had torn up his stomach. lining and his throat so badly with that. hydrochloric acid, he died 7 weeks later. in jail from starvation. >> Yeah. Another interpretation I saw is. that he um had purposefully starved. himself because the acid didn't work. that it wasn't just that he couldn't. eat, but that he wouldn't eat. And that. he he died from self-imposed starvation. Either one's pretty pretty terrible.

stuff. >> Just a brutal brutal crime. >> Yeah. And I mean, I agree with you. I. think he clearly um was mentally ill, not just from the act that he he carried. out, but also the um the fact that he'd. been ranting and sleeping with an axe. for weeks leading up to it. But I think. his perceived treatment or outright. treatment around Talesin coupled with. the idea that they had been dismissed. and that was going to be their last day. um is is I guess what drove him over the. edge.

>> Yeah. So Frank uh you mentioned or. you've noticed we haven't mentioned him. He was in Chicago at the time. He was. working on kind of finalizing everything. on the construction of Midway Gardens. there in Chicago. uh working with his. son John Lloyd Wright who is his second. oldest and in the autobiography of John. Wright called my father who was on earth. uh said he remembered an unnatural. silence uh when the phone call came in. except for his father's labored. breathing and then he came back in the. room and said he said what's happened.

dad and his father said John a taxi. talies is on fire. >> right and if you're not too big on. Franklidd Wright you um You might be. like, "Well, what about the people who. were murdered?" In his defense, he. apparently hadn't learned about that. yet. And he learned that there were some. gruesome, grizzly murders of a lot of. people he cared about, um, but from. reporters who were shouting questions to. him as he was going to the train station. to take the train from Chicago over to.

uh, Spring Green. >> Yeah. So, Chicago newspaper headline. reads, "The end of lawless loves." um. you know, sort of a. >> sort of a sensational and cold way to. treat these murders, I think. Yeah. >> Um but they had been, you know, they had. been all over their affair for years. now. >> And then Chuck, one other thing about. Julian Carlton. Have you ever been on. that site find agrave.com? >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. So, I was on find agrave.com. Part. of part of the purpose for those who. don't know is like to kind of.

memorialize like leave a tribute or. something to to the person, the dead. person. Um, and sometimes it's very. sweet, but other times it's very. awkward. And this was an awkward case. because there was like a a little icon. that clearly shows up on every page on. Find a Grave, but it said, "What's one. thing you'll always remember when you. think of Julian?". [laughter] I'm like, >> probably the the axe murder, arson, the. killing of seven people. >> That's what I'll always remember. >> He could really get a stain out of a.

rug, [laughter]. >> right, with gasoline. Yeah, very very. good at that. >> Uh, you want to take a break? >> Yeah, let's take a break and we'll talk. a little bit about uh Frank's later. years right after this. [music]. >> Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck, [music]. >> stuff you should know. [music].

[music]. So, this murder really uh and of course. the fire really really took a toll on. Franklidd Wright. um for the next you. know 20 years he really struggled with. his work. Um he struggled for uh for his. freedom from the press obviously. >> Um I mean he was always in the press but. this it was worse now than ever. And he. did not suffer long romantically though.

he took up very quickly uh with a woman. named Ma Miriam Hicks Noel. She went by. Miriam. >> and she was an artist. She was a. morphine addict. Um, she was a fan girl. She They had a terrible, terrible, abusive relationship. It seems like kind. of both ways. Like a bit of a Sid and. Nancy type thing going from everything I. could read. >> There were terrible people on both. sides.

>> Yeah. So, they um he met when she was. very young. Uh she said uh he hadn't. been with me 10 minutes before he said, "You're mine." and they had a 10-year. courtship that was very, very. dysfunctional, very miserable. >> And uh when he got divorced in 1922 from. Kitty, uh he decided at some point to. marry, I think about a year later, to. marry Miriam with that old mistake, thinking things would be different once. they get married. >> And that's not at all how it went. They. ended up splitting up, I think 6 months.

later, something like that. Um he said. that to oppose her now in the slightest. degree meant violence. That's how how. bad the the relationship had become. Um, so it was a I get the impression from. this this biographer Paul Hendrickson. Uh, the book he wrote, by the way, is. called Dreams and Furies of Frank Lloyd. Wright. Um, and it's like 600 pages, I. believe. Um, but he he does not paint a. very flattering picture of Miriam at. all.

>> No. No, not at all. Um, and like I said, they they were not good for each other, it seems like. >> Mhm. >> Uh, in 1924. after his divorce from Miriam, he gets. married a third time to, uh, Olgivana, her name was Olga Lazovich, uh, Hinsenberg. She was married, she was a dancer. Uh, they met at a ballet where she was. performing. And they, uh, actually had. another kid. Uh, Frank had his seventh. child with her. um a little girl in 1925.

and Miriam comes back though and kind of. tries to wreck their marriage too. >> Yeah. She like when they had their baby, she showed up at the hospital and made a. scene which is a pretty nasty move. Um. she refused to give him a divorce. She. like uh would talk to the papers about. him. Um she she uh teamed up with Olga's. ex-husband or soon to be ex-husband. Um, she she definitely worked against him, but I guess eventually either got bored.

or was bought off or just kind of went. away because from what I can tell, uh, Olga and Frank managed to carve out a. happy married life for themselves. Um, from the 1920s, yeah, 1924 when they got. married onward, I guess by the once. Miriam left the picture, they were able. to kind of settle in until Frank's death. in 1959. >> Yeah. And Miriam actually got him. arrested at one point. >> Mhm. >> Under the MAN Act, uh, MANN, which was a.

law, federal law that prohibits. transport of women and children across. state lines for the purposes of. debauchery or prostitution. >> Yeah. >> And, uh, I'm not really sure how that. happened. Um, it did not stick. obviously. He spent a couple of nights. in jail and then his, uh, the charges. were dropped. But he went into a long. dry spell u work-wise. um did not get. hired a ton over a certain period of. time and then from the 30s to 59 when he.

died he did some of his best work maybe. perhaps of his career. >> Absolutely. Um he it was during that. time he did Talas and West which like I. said Yumi and I went to we went out to. Scottsdale. um and uh visited with our friends Blair. and Aaron out there who are Scottsdale. peeps and uh we went to Talies and it. was just Chuck dude. Have you been to. that one? >> Haven't been to Talasin West now. >> It's it's really really cool just the. the little just so many details about it.

and there's a lot of fountains which is. really refreshing in the desert. Um, it's just a really great neat little. place for sure. And a little I use that. in in the absolute wrong way. It's a. it's pretty big, but it's a it's a very. it's a charming place for sure. >> Yeah. And of course he did the. Guggenheim after that. >> Um, he falling water. >> Yeah. So, it was uh it's a very. productive period of his life. >> Um, maybe should we do more in Franklid. right in the future or is this it? >> No. No. We'll we'll do the in in true.

stuff you should know style and just. chip away at different parts about his. life and then do a full biography on. them years down the road. >> All right, that sounds good. >> I thought of another place I went a. Franklidd Wright place. There's a. Florida Southern College or university, I'm sorry, is a um Franklidd Wright. design campus. It's amazing. >> Have to check that out, too. >> You should check it out. There's like. this really great covered walkway that. you walk around everywhere and it's just. it's it's really neat. You just feel. immersed in Franklidd Wright. It's not.

just, you know, one building or one. house. It's a whole whole campus. >> I love it. >> Uh if you want to know more about Frank. Lloyd Wright, then just go out after the. pandemic ends and start visiting some of. his houses. And since I said after the. pandemic ends, uh let's optimistically. go on to listener mail. >> No, no, sir. No listener mail today. I. think today we should take a little bit. of an opportunity to talk for a few. minutes about our book. Uh, everyone's.

been really patient while we've plugged. the pre-sale of this book. Uh, I think. by the time this comes out the book will. be out. Is that right? >> Uh, is this after the 24th? Probably. >> Yeah, Jerry can make it. So, [laughter]. >> I think it is, but if not, it's it's. just before. And uh I finally got the. books uh delivered to my house in. hardcover edition and I got to hold it. in my hand as have you. And dude, it's. great. I'm really I'm really proud of. the work that we did along with Flat.

Iron. Our coowriter Niels who's just an. amazing dude. >> Yes. Our and our illustrator Carly. Monardo who did just an amazing job. throughout the book of bringing like. just passages that you didn't even think. of just suddenly kind of came to life. through her illustrations. >> Yeah. I mean, there's an illustration of. Momo. There's an illustration of my. daughter. >> Mhm. >> Uh there are nice little Easter eggs in. there. Uh, you know, we haven't talked a. lot about the contents of the book. There are um we had a lot of fun with. the with the notes at the bottom, the.

footnotes. >> It's really became kind of a fun part of. the book. Uh we mentioned I I don't even. lost count how many podcasts we. mentioned, >> but we notate those in the end. >> Yeah. And there were plenty that we we. missed. Like I did another like I. shouldn't have done this, but I did. another like um like fine tooth comb. like just scrape through of every word. in the book. >> Of course you did. >> Um to see, you know, what what podcast. we needed to link to. And I was like,

"Oh man, I found like 50 of these so. far." And I emailed and was like, "Is it. too late to add footnotes or podcast. footnotes?" And they're like, "Yes, that. time has come. So maybe second edition.". Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Exactly. Can we. get these reprinted? But uh. >> I have the number here actually. We we. have uh listed in the book. We or. referenced in the book. We have 274. references to other podcasts. >> Mhm. >> But uh here's a few of the chapters. Uh. we did one on Murphy beds. >> Uh one on back masking, one on aging,

um one on donuts. That's a great. chapter. >> I love that chapter. >> Uh what else? Kamicazi, demolition. derbies. It's like stuff you should know. in book form. It is definitely and as. we've said like none of these are just. like an entire podcast. It's more like. you know we took maybe the history of. something or you know one just one. aspect of one of the the things and kind. of dove into it and flesh it out like. that. So uh hopefully we'll be able to. turn these into full-size like podcast.

episodes one day. That's kind of our. intent. But even if we don't, I think. the book like really covers them in an. enjoyable way. >> Totally. Jack. >> Kavorian. >> That was a good one, too. >> Keeping up with the Joneses. That's one. of my favorite ones. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's like 27 just amazing. chapters in there. Each one's better. than the last and then astoundingly it. starts back over and somehow chapter one. is better than chapter 27. [laughter]. Uh but you know, if you haven't bought. it yet, I highly encourage you to. It.

makes a great gift. Um even if the. person doesn't even know who we are. It's it's in the great tradition, I. think, of uh the great bathroom readers. You can pick it up at any point in the. book and read any chapter. >> and it's and it's just a lot of fun. My. daughter even likes it because of the. pictures and she loves looking at the. back and going, "There's you and Josh.". [laughter]. >> I know. >> It's very cute. >> It is cute. So, one other thing I want. to say is like we really appreciate you. guys who have already pre-ordered the. book or who will buy the book or who. bought the audio book. Um that's.

available too. Um, but if you can't, if. you're like, I just don't have the money. right now, or I don't feel like spending. the money. I just like the podcast. That's fine, too. Like, we're not mad at. you. Um, but we appreciate the people. who have supported us by buying the. book. Um, so, thank you very much to. everybody who has or will buy our book. because that's that's very kind of you. and it means a lot to us. >> And you can look forward to a kids. version coming soon. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yeah. Eventually, we're taking the same. 27 chapters and kittifying it, but.

without being patronizing. So, that'll. be really, [laughter]. >> right? No, we're taking the swear words. out. >> The chapter on Mezcow didn't make the. cut in the kids book. >> I know. Um I think I mean I think this. book is appropriate for kids as young as. like probably 12 years old. It's not. like it's. >> Oh, yeah. [laughter]. >> It's not like it's dirty or anything. It's um it might just be a little. advanced for younger kids, but we're. going to we're going to make sure that. the younger kids have their version, too. >> Yes, it'll make every 12-year-old who. reads our our the adult book really want.

mecal. >> So, anyway, thanks to everyone who's. bought it. It's called Stuff You Should. Know, an incomplete compendium of mostly. interesting things. >> Uh you can get it wherever books are. sold. Of course, we encourage you to buy. from uh independent bookstores if you. can to try and keep them in business. >> Yep. For sure. Um I guess that's it, huh? >> That's it. >> Okay. Well, thanks everybody for uh. hearing us out about our book spiel. And. uh if you bought the book or the audio. book, thank you. Uh if you can't, again, we love you anyway. Um so don't worry.

about it. And if you want to get in. touch with us, you can send us an email. to stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, [music]. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.