Selects: The Tale of the Church of the SubGenius | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this. week's select, I've chosen our October. 2021 episode on the Church of the. Subgenius. It's a neat little romp. through what started out as a couple of. guys who like pamphlets and turned a. whole generation, well, some percentage. of a whole generation into interesting. people skeptical of anything someone is. trying to sell them on. As you can hear. from this intro, it's kind of difficult. to describe. So just enjoy listening to. the episode.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's over. there wandering around in circles. And. this is stuff you should know. The podcast about the Church of the. Subgenius. at long last. When did you become.

acquainted with the Church of the. Subgenius? >> Um, I had a uh a group of friends that. walked on the odder side of life, darker. side of life, less, you know, less. serious side of life. I'm not sure. um. in the 90s and there was one guy who was. big time into the. >> Church of the Subgenius. >> That's how it happens, right? >> Yeah, that was my first introduction. Then I actually came across um the Hour. of Slack on Georgia Tech student radio.

once and. >> uh like in the early 2000s and radio. >> I I never got into it though. Are you. actually like a secret subgeni? >> No, same as you. I had a friend in. college, uh, a very influential friend. actually, who turned me on to a lot of. different things as I was just getting. into college and exploring. >> different ways of life and thought. patterns and uh,

>> yeah, and Shermsticks. >> Yeah, my buddy Jason, he he he turned me. on to a lot of things in life and I've. I've been able to tell him so uh, which. is always a nice thing. and and Bob Dobs. in the Church of Subgenius was one of. them. >> Yeah. Yeah. And like if you might not be. utterly familiar with the Church of the. Subgenius, but I'll bet there's a pretty. good chance that a lot of stuff you. should know listeners are at least. familiar with it without even being. fully aware that of what it is. But. there's a um very very famous uh picture.

of a cleancut midcentury. middle-aged dude with a pipe clenched in. his teeth and almost like a um Patrick. Baitman psychotic look on his face like. almost. >> Patrick Baitman meets W Cleaver. >> Exactly. Yes, Chuck. I don't think. anyone's ever put it better than that. And that is J.R. Bob Dobs, who is the. high prophet of the Church of the.

Subgenius, and he has popped up. everywhere from the background at. Peewee's Playhouse. There was a Sublime. record that had him on there. Um, like. he shows up all over the place. It's. almost like code. Um, and so you. probably have seen it even if you're not. familiar with the Church of the. Subenius. That's called the Dob's Head, >> right? Uh, gathered from clip art, which. we will see. It's kind of one of the fun. in jokes. about a. pseudo religion, a satire and parody of.

religion. >> And it's, you know, it was formed by two. guys. We'll get into the history, but I. have a sort of a favorite definition, and I know you do, and maybe we'll just. read both of them, >> okay? >> Uh, mine comes from Steve Davis of the. Austin Chronicle, and he said this. In. the late 70s, the Church of the. Subgenius was intended as a dogmatic. antidote to a reemergent mediocrity, embracing an aesthetic in confluence. with evolving new wave sensibilities and.

tropes in music, film, and pop culture. It was an end joke with a half-serious. punchline. >> Very nice. That was great. >> And what you youss was from Ed the. Grabster himself. He kind of put it. nice. >> Yeah. Also from the Austin Chronicle. >> Yeah. So Ed said that it's that the best. way to explain the church is it is a. joke, but to get the joke, you have to. see that it isn't really a joke at all, but is actually getting at harrowing. truths about the world.

>> Not bad, Ed. >> Not bad. So the whole thing. >> scared Ed a little bit. >> I think so, too. It's hilarious and. cute. But the the whole thing is that it. is a parody of a religion, a parody of a. cult, a UFO sex cult if you want to get. technical. Um, it's a it's a absurdest. in joke and the whole thing is one big. in joke made up of like millions of tiny. little in jokes that anybody in the. church can kind of generate and create, but it's all kind of hung on the.

skeleton of this um this doctrine of the. the prophet Bob Dobs, who is this the. world's greatest salesman um who is. basically carrying out the will of an. alien Ian god who may or may not love us. or the subgenier as they're called in. plural and. it like either it sucks you in. immediately and you're like I want to. know more about this cuz this is.

hilarious or repulses you because it is. making fun of everything that you hold. dear. There's not a lot of middle. ground. Although I would count myself as. somebody in the middle ground to tell. you the truth. That was so awesome, Chuck. Nicely done. >> Yeah, what I just did there, and you'll. see this a lot if you watch the. documentary, if you see any YouTube. footage of uh people from the Sub Genius. Church hanging out at one of their uh. Devival. They don't call them revival,

they call them devival. >> Uh they will do this thing where they. kind of. uh juggle their throat with their hand. as they sort of do this weird chant. >> Yeah. And I didn't find much information. on that specifically, but I did see them. doing it all over the place. >> Well, it is a huge huge rabbit hole and. as we'll see, like some people. accidentally take it seriously and. that's not the right thing to do at all. That is. >> that is a um. >> that is an a mentally unsound thing to. do.

>> That's not what the intention is or. anything like that. The intention is is. to basically point out how just warped. our consumer culture is. And it made a. lot more sense in the 80s before our. culture ended up becoming the the parody. that the Church of the Subgenius was was. carrying out. >> Yeah. It had a it had a very Mad. Magazine vibe. Uh you know, something I. know that you and I both grew up loving. and cherishing. And I could see like, >> you know, if if that's something as. mainstream as you want to liken it to to.

help people understand, it's almost as. if Mad Magazine started a a religion and. Alfred E. Newman was the god and it was. all just one big joke about consumer. culture and uh and then if people end up. taking it seriously you can really see. why like that would be a very strange. thing like of course Alfred D. Newman is. not God. And of course, Bob Dobs is not. God, >> right? >> Uh or the prophet, but uh these two guys. founded this this kind of funny joke.

religion in the late 1970s because they. were like-minded dudes. And what started. as a joke grew into a I guess a mini. phenomenon. >> I don't know, man. I think it's. >> or major phenomenon. >> I would say major as far as cult classic. or cult phenomena go. And also, we. should also, I think we should pre. preface all this, if it's not too late, to all of the Church of the Subgenius. members out there, past and present, um, and future. Um, this is one of those.

things where like if you explain what. makes something funny, >> right, >> it is like that's the least funny thing. you can do. So, if we trapes into that. just by virtue of explaining things, we're sorry. I know because it is a fun. kind of cool thing that was created for. people that felt like they were on the. outside of things. >> Precisely. Yes. >> Uh for for outcasts and weirdos who. didn't fit in necessarily. They found. common ground before the internet. >> Yeah.

>> By writing letters back and forth to. each other. They kind of had the. internet through pen and paper. >> Mhm. >> In these devival. And uh we have uh. Douglas St. Clair Smith and Steve Wilcox. to thank for this. Yeah, the original. outsider weirdos. >> That's right. Uh you may not know them. by that name. If you're familiar with. the Church of the Subgenius, you know. them as uh Ivan Stang and Pho Drummond. >> Mhm. And these were two guys, like I. said, who were uh they were in Texas. I.

think Pho grew up in a religious family, but uh and had a really good childhood. it wasn't some like stifling situation, >> but he was always sort of didn't quite. fit in and felt like the outsider at. school and was seeking outsider culture. and uh whereas uh Stang was I think he. described himself in the documentary as. secular humanist scientist in his. upbringing. >> um super liberal family whereas uh I.

keep want to call him Will Cox whereas. Pho was um more conservative to be sure. But they found common ground when a. friend introduced them. They said, "You. both love comic books. You both love. Frank Zappa and Captain Beefart. >> Get together and you might have a new. friend." And they were immediate. friends. >> Yeah. Yeah. They definitely hit it off. in part also because they both kind of. just felt like they didn't really fit. into Dallas, Texas at the time. >> That helps. One of the other things they. really they had in common was a love of.

like earnest bonafide extremist. pamphlets, >> right? They're fun. >> Yeah. Whether it's extremist religious. groups, extremist like um you know uh. like white supremacist groups, which I'm. sure Dallas, Texas in the 70s had quite. a bit of. like anybody who was just kind. of off the rails and was trying to. recruit other people to be off the rails. with them. >> and and made a pamphlet about that.

These guys would collect it and relish. it. And um that also included remember. the Jack Schick tracks. >> in the Satanic Panic episode. They were. huge into that. It had a huge influence. on them as well. those comic strips. about how somebody, you know, um had sex. before marriage and now they were. burning in hell kind of stuff like that. They they took all these things together. and they kind of used them as the the. basis for this outlook on the world. which is humans are totally nuts in a.

lot of ways. And then even more than. that, they can be dangerously nuts when. they try to force or impose their own. crazy thoughts onto you and make you. behave a certain way because of their. crazy thoughts. That that's the danger. that comes out of modern life. And I. think that's one of the things that. really stuck out to them and the thing. that drove them to kind of kind of try. to fight that however they could. >> Yeah. I have to say I I see the appeal. of what they did because uh if you.

remember a few years ago, >> God, this is quite a few years ago now, our our buddy Joe Randazzo. >> and I wrote a TV pilot together. >> about a um a Scientology religion. >> and it never went anywhere. We even had. a few pitch meetings and nothing. happened with it. But in writing that. script, we had to create our own. religion. >> for that pilot. And you can't just say, "Well, let's just call it this and it's. whatever." Like, you have to really kind. of explore the tenants of it and make it.

a real thing. >> And we did that. And uh I made a. pamphlet. Joe and I made it together. And I kind of put it together. >> And we brought the pamphlet to the pitch. meetings and it I'll send you one. sometime. It's really funny. Our our. religion was called binerism and it was. like numbers this numbersbased kind of. Scientology thing. But it was so much. fun. And all I could think about when. these two guys got together in 1979. and hatched this idea was Yeah. It's a. lot of fun to create a phony religion.

>> Yeah. >> Even for a screenplay. >> Yeah. And they were definitely inspired. by um Elron Hubard and his success at. basically founding Scientology based on. some science fiction ideas that he had. and then becoming rich. There's a a. famous quote attributed to Elron Hover. that you can't get rich writing science. fiction, but you can get rich by writing. or by founding your own religion. And so. so we should be really careful here. They weren't inspired by Elron Hubard.

in the sense like they wanted to take. advantage of people. I think they were. more fascinated by the fact that there. are plenty of people out there who will. buy into this. And I think they kind of. wanted to explore that. Not not in any. kind of like it's weird. It's the whole. thing is kind of a cynical it comes from. a cynical place where you just have to. be cynical to to be to be critical. enough of society to see it for what it. is. But it's also like a very humanist.

group as well where like they're not. trying to hurt you. They're not trying. to exploit you. They definitely come off. as superior a lot of times, especially. if you're not in on the joke because. that makes you by definition part of the. butt of the joke, >> right? Make you a normie. >> Yes. But for the most part, they're not. they're not like a group of people who. like hate or despise other people. I. think they're fascinated by the fact. that that kind of stuff exists. And. they're also fascinated by just how um. conformist the average person is without.

even thinking about it. Um, so. they were fascinated, I guess, is the. way to put it by Elron Hubard and his. success with Scientology. And there was. another quote that was attributed to. Stang. >> I don't know if it was in the. documentary that came out recently or. not, but he basically said if we figured. that if Jim Jones can get 900 people to. kill themselves, we could get 900 people. to send us a dollar. Yeah. And they kind. of wanted to toy around with that and. see, you know, if that was the case. Not.

to exploit people, but just to kind of. see, I think, if there was anybody else. out there. They were kind of shouting. into the wilderness. And the way that. you told them that you were out there. was to mail in a dollar and say, "Give. send me your pamphlet.". >> Yeah. And here's the deal. Stang, it. looks like, by all accounts, has. generally made his living doing this. over the year. >> Yeah. It worked. >> He's he's not gotten rich. It's not a. Scientology thing where it's like, "And. send me $100 more dollars and we'll give. you another thing.". >> It's really just sort of mail us some.

money and we'll send you our comedy. goods in the mail. >> Yeah. Like, >> and he still stuffs envelopes and he. still sends pamphlets and CDs and. literature today. >> It's like, you know, it's like paying. for a mad magazine or something, but. it's just done from this guy's house. >> Yeah. I also get the impression that the. far and away the vast majority the. people who understand the church of subg. genius for what it is when they send. money and they're sending it out of like. gratitude for what Stang and and um Pho.

have built together. That that's that's. what it is. They're they're not being. duped in any way. They're in on the. joke. They're just showing their support. by um shoveling money toward those guys. >> All right. I think that is a a great. preamble. uh you're either turning off your hi-fi. system now or you're uh or you're. intrigued by what's to come. And we'll. talk about uh the night it all hatched. right after this. [Music].

[Music]. All right. So, these guys are hanging. out. It's 1979. >> Mhm. >> They didn't have I think Pho was the one.

who always had a pretty decent job. He. kind of had an okay career and he always. wanted to there were times where he kind. of dropped in and out. >> of his involvement because he did have a. decent career but he always supported it. whereas Stang was all in from the. beginning and didn't have a ton of. prospects for work. >> Mhm. >> But they were hanging out and they were. like kind of wondering why they, you. know, didn't have more and why they. weren't as successful as they thought. they should be. And Stang said, you. know, we aren't geniuses and he we must.

be sub geniuses. And he says in the. documentary, he was like, "That's the. moment that was literally like a. lightning bolt out of the sky that. hatched this idea." So they kind of took. all their interest in all these weird. pamphlets and weird UFO cults and pseudo. religions and new age beliefs and they. made the original pamphlet. uh spent $60 on this original pamphlet. and we're just leaving them at dry. cleaners and stuff like that until. Stang's wife got mad and she was like, "That's a lot of money for us. at least.

send this to some publishers. >> and see if you can do something with. this. So, they sent it to every. publisher under the sun and got rejected. by every uh every publisher under the. sun. But, um. it's pretty funny that later they did. end up having a fairly successful book, but early on book publishers didn't know. what to do with these guys. >> Yeah. And you can understand why if. you've ever seen what's called pamphlet. number one now, which is part of the. church doctrine. This is like the sacred.

writings. The the the idea is that um. Ivan Stang is the sacred scribe who took. down the words of Bob Dobs. And by the. way, Bob Dobs, the Bob is always in. quotes. Not just when you say J.R. Bob. Dos. Like even if you just say Bob Dobs. or even just Bob, it's always in quotes. That's how you write his name. Um, and. that Bob was getting his uh divine. inspiration from Jehovah 1, that alien. overlord that that runs Earth. Um, and.

this was kind of like the the conceit of. the the pamphlet. And the front of the. pamphlet said things like, "The world. ends tomorrow and you may die in all. caps." Um, it asked uh, "Do people think. you're strange? Do you?" Um, I know. I. love that one. There was another one. that said eternal salvation or triple. your money back. So like these are the. things on like on and in the pamphlet. and they're they're going around to. publishers being like hey you want to.

you want to give us some money for this? So of course everybody said no. The most. astounding thing is that eventually. somebody actually said yes at I think. McGra Hill. >> Yeah. Uh and this this was much later. when they finally did get their book. published uh after they had quite a. following and the the sort of writing. was on the wall with these you know. fairly successful gatherings and live. shows. >> But um yeah the book came later early on. they they got together and started uh. just as buddies getting on the CB radio.

and doing and this again this was like. you would get on the internet today. Back then it was the CB. >> and they would do these sort of parody. voices. Um, it basically hatched what. was the beginnings of what would end up. being the Hour of Slack uh, radio show, which is 90 minutes long, part of the. joke. >> And, uh, people started hollering back. at them. He said they were trolls before. they were trolls. They were kind of. trolling people on the CB, right? >> And then other people would troll back. and call them.

>> uh, pinks. >> And that's where the notion of pinks or. pink boys came up. and pink boys, uh, they kind of flipped it, uh, in the. Church of the Subenius, pink boys are. the others. They're the squares. They're. the ones who just follow along and go to. their nineto-ive job and spend their. consumer money. >> in, you know, on catalog items. And, uh, anyone else. outside is a pink or a pink boy. >> Yes. But but there's a distinction.

between uh say people like you and I and. actual died in the wool pink boys, the. kind the like middle manager types who. are like not only fully bought into the. the con, the great con that's going on, they actually like like almost violently. defend it in its existence and its its. rightness. Um those are those are pinks. They're irreparable. There's nothing. that's ever going to help them. And. they're genuine humans. Now, there are. plenty of subg geni out there who don't. know their subg geni. They haven't been.

exposed to the church. They've never. seen a dob's head. Maybe whatever. reason, they're they're not aware that. they're a subgenius yet. And if you're a. true subgenius, then you have yeti blood. coursing through your veins. >> Yeah. Now, if you're an actual. subgenius, that means that you are a uh. of Yeti heritage uh who is who has. basically become aware of the teachings. of Bob and are now actively um working. against the conspiracy and exploiting.

pink boys anytime you get a chance. because again, they're they're hopeless. They're they're never going to be. converted because they don't have any. Yeti blood in them, >> right? Uh, and to reiterate, I don't. know if I kind of just tossed it off. earlier, but. >> you tossed it off. >> Bob Dobs is a piece of clip art. Literally, that face that you see was a. piece of clip art from clip art catalog. And they loved clip art because it was. free. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of their early stuff was just. collage from clip art that they had. found. And this was from a clip art.

catalog. And now it's, you know, one of, you know, arguably one of the most. famous pieces of clip art there is. >> Yeah. And I don't know if it was a joke. It's so hard to tell um what's a joke. and what's not because they play. everything so straight. Um. >> yeah, they're in character basically. >> Yeah. But that I saw on one of their. websites that they said reminder this is. a uh this is this is a trademarked piece. of art now as part of like the sub gen. or copyright subgenius. So I don't know. if they actually did copyright it. I. could totally see them doing that in.

real life. >> Um or if they were just joking about it. Either way, yeah, it's kind of great. So I think we probably can't go any. further without explaining this concept. of slack. Uh I mentioned that the radio show is. called the hour of slack and kind of the. major I guess philosophy and tenant of. their religion is. uh it's this concept of slack. >> Are you having trouble describing it? >> No. I mean they they even say in the.

documentary it is not even to be. described that they can't even describe. it. So whatever we do is going to be our. own attempt. >> Okay. >> Uh slack is different for every person. But the the definite idea is what you. think which is being slack like kind of. but not just being lazy. Having. everything you need in life and being. content while giving up as little as. possible exertion wise. >> Yeah. Exertion wise. Exactly. Like like. having done as little as possible to. actually attain it. Um that's one.

definition of slack for sure. Um, the point is like I think it's one of. those things where you um. or what is not slack is easier to. recognize than what is slack. And I'll. give you an example of something that. happened today. >> Okay. >> Okay. Because I've been thinking about. this. I'm like, how are we going to. define slack? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, um, uh, I knocked over the toilet. brush behind the the toilet in my.

bathroom. Right. >> Okay. And you know like the little. drippings that end up in like the toilet. brush holder. >> Yes. >> They spill out on the floor. >> Yeah. Those are the worst drippings. >> The the worst drippings. Like I would. have rather spilled like like like raw. pork juice onto my floor than those. drippings. And they're bad drippings, right? >> Bad drippings. >> So I spent the next 10 minutes not only. like cleaning up those drippings, and I. mean like cleaning it up. Like there's. there's some floor missing now. I. scrubbed it so hard. And then also.

cleaning the holder for the scrub brush. before I put everything back. And this. is a totally unintentional, totally. avoidable thing for me to be doing. That. took up 10 minutes of my life. I did not. want to be doing it. It was gross. It. was yuck. And I realized this is the. this is the perfect example of what is. not Slack. >> It's the conspiracy. >> It was the conspiracy that probably had. something to do with it. But the the. point was is like I was doing something. I didn't want to do and I was doing it.

I was getting no reward from it. whatsoever. I was a little stressed out. about it. It was not slack. So slack is. the opposite of that. It's where things. are going your way. Uh it's where you. are uh content and happy and that. doesn't necessarily mean you have. everything in life like all the. trappings of life. It very frequently. doesn't mean that. Instead, it's just. whatever it is that makes you content. And because it it's undefinable, that. means that it's up to every subgeni to. define what is slack for them.

>> Yeah. And the conspiracy is are the. things that prevent you from a achieving. slack. >> Uh originally, I think the conspiracy. was literally like the man, that kind of. thing. But it evolved over the years to. the point where uh one of the guys in. the documentary said it evolved to, you. know, it was like when it rained really. hard on a day you were going to do. something like that's the conspiracy. >> I got you. >> It's things I think conspiring against. you. >> That toilet brush knocking over that's.

definitely the conspiracy, >> right? >> Uh because it prevented you from I guess. taking your your midm morning nap, >> right? And the under the teachings of of. Bob, the conspiracy is actually an. acronym for clicks of normals secretly. planning insidious rituals aimed at. controlling you. >> That's a good that's a good one. >> Agreed. And then under the doctrine, like this is a an actual group who they. don't know what slack is, but they know. it exists and they're bent on stealing. as much of it as possible and they start.

stealing it from everybody pinks and. Yeti from the moment you're born. Um, and so it's up to you to um to steal it. back, to get as much slack as you. possibly can. But the problem with the. conspiracy is they're the ones running. the show here on Earth. They're the ones. who are behind consumer culture. Um, and. they've created this illusion that that. what what normals and pinks um, and uh, nonsubginai yeti who haven't figured.

themselves out yet um, buy into as life. is all just this vast consumer. conspiracy. Um, and that uh, they'll they actually offer what appears. to be slack but is like false slack is. what they call it. Yeah, it's. manufactured Slack. So, it's like um the. Subgenius wiki is awesome and they give. examples of um like pre-planned. recreation. um like days off from work that you earn.

or are given. Like these are this is all. false slack. Like it's somebody else. deciding what your slack is and you. buying into it and that is the that is. not slack. Slack is you have to decide. what slack is, >> right? And there is original slack. We're all born with original slack. according to the church. >> And the conspiracy chips away at that. slack or sells you false slack over the. years. >> to degrade your your natural slack that. you're born with. >> Yep.

>> And then there's also involuntary slack, which is my favorite slack. And this is. like if you if you lose your job or. something, if you get fired, this is. just involuntary slack uh that Bob is. sending your way to force you to take a. little time off. >> Yeah. I saw a video from I guess 2009 or. 10 and it called the great recession, the great slack session. >> and it basically said like the the. financial markets have melted down. and.

it had like this real dramatic music. Um, of millions of people are out of out. of work. No one has a clue about what to. do about it. Victory is at hand. >> Um, there's one other thing I want to. say about Slack too. Um, there are. basically two uh groups, two approaches. or philosophies as far as Slack is. concerned. And I think it's pretty. interesting that like the the whole. concept has gotten this far. it's it's. evolved into something. And I think this.

is a really good example of what happens. with the church's teachings. Like these. guys just wrote some crazy stuff like. back in the like 70s, 80s, even into the. 90s. And then other people who kind of. vibed on it came along and expanded it. Like I read a I read an essay on the the. scissors of sight. And apparently that's. mentioned off-handedly in uh in pamphlet. number one. And somebody wrote a whole. essay about how they're still trying to. figure out what those are and they think. it's from a crystal in Atlantis. And um.

it was just just all like that's just. what they do. It's almost like they're. putting stuff out there as like thought. starters for other people's creativity. to to kind of sprout from. But anyway, the two um the two paths for Slack is. kind of split between these two groups, the rewardians and the emergentiles, right? >> Yeah. And the emergents are getting. their slack because they're getting the. things done that they kind of feel like. they want and need to get done, >> but it's under a deadline from someone. else, but then they have their slack.

>> And then the rewardians don't think this. is more like tow of Steve stuff. Did you. ever see that movie? No, I need to. though. I'm well aware of it. >> It's sort of that was sort of that guy's. deal. He he was just like he had this. life philosophy and he would have really. fit in with these uh with these folks. with the rewardians. They're basically. like slack off all the time. Don't do. any work. >> until you absolutely have to, >> right? I think there's quite a bit of. pot involved every day kind of thing. >> Sure. >> Um.

>> that wouldn't surprise me. >> And that's what I think most people. would think of when they think of like. slacking like Yeah. That's what you do. when you slack. You don't work. you sit. around, you smoke pot, you're like never. put on pants or anything like that and. you're just having the time of your life. as long as like that's what you want to. do. Um emergenciles, you're like, "No, no, there's another way to do this.". Like I feel really good about. accomplishing something about like. setting a goal and meeting it about but. that's my goal. Like I want to learn how. to climb a mountain. So I'm going to go.

learn how to climb a mountain and climb. that mountain. And during that whole. process I'm slacking. like that's my. slack. Um, so those are kind of like the. two ways of doing it. And apparently the. two groups kind of pity each other and. think they have it completely backwards, but the the point is is neither group is. right or wrong because it's all up to. the individual what your slack is. >> I mean, what these guys really it was. it's such a time and place thing. They. were born out of this sort of spirit of. the merry pranksters ' 60s. counterculture kinzy kind of thing.

>> But they came along at a time where that. had been bulldozed over. >> and the 80s were being born which was. about as anti- you know 60s. counterculture vibe as you can imagine. >> Mhm. >> But these guys still had that sort of. fun playful idea and you know this this. was their invention. I just I always. think it's just so fun and so cool. I. every time I see a a um Devival or a. live show, I absolutely do not want to.

be there. >> No. >> But I think it's awesome. It was I liken. it to when I saw um Spinal Tap in. concert. They actually toured when I was. in college. >> and I was such a fan of the movie and. they played the Fox Theater and we all. went and I had it was not fun at all. because it was like it was funny as a. movie but you're at this rock and roll. show that is supposed to kind of be. funny. >> but but there were also people that were. really getting into the rock and roll.

>> and I didn't know I was stuck in between. worlds. I didn't know how to feel. And. when I was watching these. >> subgenius live shows, I was kind of. like, "Oh, that's like Spinal Tap Live. I don't want to be there." But I'm glad. people are enjoying it. >> Yeah. It's kind of like um Yeah. And. dude, they are enjoying it. The people. who go to those are are genuinely having. like the time of their lives. Like. that's their time to like just like just. be themselves as much as they ever have. in their life. >> I love it. Um, it's almost like I would.

compare it to um a uh like a meeting of. the jugalos, a a comic con, and a guar show all mixed. together. That's what the divals these. days kind of seem like just based on. what I've seen on the internet. >> Yeah, that's good. I like it. And if. you're if you think this is all really. dumb, then you probably would not like. their motto. Uh they have a lot of. sayings and mottos, but their chief one. that they kind of yell out at these uh.

devival is uh f them if you can't take a. joke or if they can't take a joke. >> Right. >> And I mean it's right there like they're. it's amazing to me that some people took. this too seriously because the motto is. literally this is a joke, >> right? Yeah. And it it is really kind of. like disconcerting because like if you. do take it seriously, like you really. have to go to great lengths to to get. past all of the winks, the nods, the. absurdity of everything. It suggests that there's like.

you're you're you're worse off than the. average cult member because you're. actually taking a joke cult as a cult. >> It's like when Fight Club got too. serious, >> they started blowing up buildings and. stuff. >> Yeah, I think so. Except there was no violence involved in. the Church of the Subgenius. >> No, they're they're peaceful. >> That's right. Because they're all. stoned. >> Yeah, I think a lot of them are. I think. a lot of them are like the Frank Zappa. types where they're just weird and they. have nothing to do with drugs or alcohol. or anything like that, you know.

>> Those are they they were born with. original stoned. >> Uh yes. Yeah, that's exactly right. >> Requires no drugs. >> Apparently Frank Zapper was a real jerk. to people who did drugs. like he had. that cafe or restaurant or club or. whatever and he would like kick you out. if he thought you were on pot. >> Um. >> that's that's conspiracy. >> Yeah. He was a little pink from what I. can tell. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you said also if this kind of. stuff seems weird to you or whatever or.

you don't like it, like that's a pretty. like fairly normal reaction. It doesn't. mean there's anything wrong with you. No. But one of the reasons that that it. might make you feel a little wobbly or a. little shaky or like you're missing. something or like you're being made fun. of, that kind of weird feeling in your. stomach is because you probably are. being made fun of. Like if you're not in. on the joke, >> like I said earlier, by definition, you're you're part of the butt of the. joke. You're a member of that that. group. um and if you actually are.

actively getting offended at what. they're saying and doing because one of. the one of the threads of humor that. they very frequently use is bad taste, shock value. Um like like just basically. the opposite of PC. Like they they. really don't care for PC very much. Um, and if you're deeply offended by this. stuff and you actually like respond to. it, um, they're you're actually kind of. proving their point that you are maybe a. little too wrapped up in this culture. that they're that they're basically.

saying like this this is a fraud. This. is all a fraud and and like you're. you're proving that that there's. problems with it by getting mad at. something where, you know, at a joke. basically. >> Yeah. And. but you know before you start feeling. too sorry for these people because. they're being made fun of as like. squares who aren't hip to the joke and. don't get the joke. I mean the original. reason this was started was cuz these. very people were outcast and being. bullied by those very people.

>> to begin with. >> Right. So let's take a break, man. We'll talk. about some of the lower points in the. church of the subgenius that have. happened across the years. Huh? >> Let's do it. [Music].

[Music]. So, um if you went to a devival, one of. the things you would find, Chuck, is uh. especially an early one, is a lot of. like put on preaching, like evangelical. mock preaching, but the what the the. guy's doing is like doing a a fire and. brimstone preacher. >> bit. >> Yeah. >> But what he's saying is espousing, you.

know, Bob stuff about, you know, if they. f them if they can't take a joke or um. you know, whatever. Um, and that like. doesn't sit very well usually with. people, but also it it never really sits. very well with me because it's obnoxious. even in its real form and it's super. obnoxious when it's like mocked because. >> Well, that's why I wouldn't want to be. there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you. >> and the anti- music is another reason. >> That was the next thing I was going to. get to is like if you if you were not. super into this and probably on a pretty.

decent amount of acid back in like 1985. or four. Um you the anti music would. probably turn you off too. I know I. don't like it at all either. >> Yeah. It's basically the idea is that. they would get a bunch of instruments. and you could just do whatever you want. with them and and the idea is that. you're not you can't play these things. These are not skilled musicians or not. even musicians at all. >> And uh they would just make noise with. them. And you know when watching the. documentary, you get the idea from some.

of them that. it's it's sort of like the drum circle. that finally everyone gets in. synchronicity for a minute. You're like, "Oh, okay. Something just happened.". uh that would happen occasionally. apparently with the anti-music is that. it would coalesce at a certain point. >> or maybe that was a drugs talking but. basically it's a bunch of people making. a lot of awful noise and screaming. >> Yes. Um there was actually a time during. the de at at devival I think during the.

' 90s maybe where a a schism in the. church developed um. >> well was very much planned. Yeah. >> Right. So um the idea was so there one. of the big parts of the one of the. tenants of the church is there the like. the world's going to end eventually on X. day and X day was originally slotted for. July 5th 1998 and that came and went and. there were no UFOs um driven by sex. goddesses to come whisk off the the. subgeni to planet X to to live out the.

rest of their eternity partying. Um and. then but the fact that this was coming. along the this the church decided like. we don't know what's going to happen to. the pinks after that so we need to. decide. >> and the schism schism was formed between. people who said well there'll probably. be sub subg geni who want to stay and. rule the world and we can just let them. rule the pinks from there on out and. then the other group said no no no all.

the pinks are going to be slaughtered on. x day there won't be any pinks. And apparently this um this this. differing opinion on on basic church. doctrine like was a a thread that was. carried on for a very long time. >> It was and I think we just need to be. really clear. A schism was written into. the script of the Church of the. Subgenius. >> Okay. >> It was nothing formed. It was they wrote. a heel basically into their wrestling. show. >> uh with Papa Joe Mama.

>> who was the leader of the Holocaust who. believed um and again all inest but he. believed like go out and shoot the rich. basically right like kill these people. >> and I think it was Stang was the leader. of the evangelicals. which was yeah let's just make enslave. them basically and keep them alive. >> and um two things here first of all in. that they they eventually had a big show. in the 80s kind of jumping back uh in. San Francisco. They had had these sort.

of small tent devival with 100 people. and then in San Francisco they booked. this theater for two nights, 900 seat. theater for two nights. >> and we're like we don't really know if. we can do this. >> and they had set builders and set. designers and it became a real actual. thing. The news covered it and they did. They covered it and they they had a fake. assassination of Bob. Bob finally came. out. >> He walked out on stage and then bang. Yeah, he was immediately shot. But. apparently they started doing this a. lot. Bob had, you know, Bob had many, many lives and could be killed over and.

over again, assassinated. >> Um, so there was that. And then after. Xday, >> judging from the documentary is is when. it seemed to like kind of go bad and not. go bad in that everybody really started. believing and it became this really. scary thing, >> but it sort of lost its a little bit. And there were some people and I think. one person specifically even went up to. Stang uh I don't know if it was the X. day. >> I think.

show in 1984. >> okay and um he was you know obviously. someone who needed some real help. because he thought this was all real uh. was was livid that it wasn't being taken. seriously and that people were laughing. and that's when Stang was like a man. like kind of this was bound to happen. >> But it also made him sad because I'd. never wanted anything like this. >> Right. And that was um the reason why so. like the documentary that was made by.

Sandy K. Boon um who was involved in a. few other um pretty pretty great. documentaries recently including Tower. I don't think it's the Tower, just. Tower. The one about the um. >> the Charles Whitman the the shooting at. the University of Texas back in the 60s. Oh, it's amazing. So remember waking. life that that whole thing link letter. did with the animation they did that for. this documentary and it really like had. a great impact. >> The rotoscoping cool. >> Yes. >> So um uh she was involved in that as.

well but she made this documentary. apparently her late husband was like. what a great adherent and in the church. of the subg genius and she made it also. kind of as an ode to him as well. Um, but in it Stang and Pho break character. and like they hadn't broken character. for 30 something years, right? Like. they've done interviews, uh, they've. like like print TV, radio, like they've. done the radio show, they've like. written tons of books. Um, they just. don't break character. That's just part.

of their jam. And for this documentary, they did. And they said the reason why, at least Stang said the reason why he. did. >> um was because they're kind of getting. on in years and he wants to make sure. that it's perfectly clear before he dies. that this is a joke and that everybody. knows it was a joke and it's always been. a joke and there's like you need to take. it as a joke so that it doesn't. accidentally turn into something like. Scientology down the down the line. >> Yeah. He said you watched it, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't watch it right. before this. I saw it several months. ago. >> Yeah. He said, um, and this kind of sums. it up in in the way that it makes sense, but it doesn't. And this is in relation. to that that guy who really came up to. him and other people that really thought. it was real. He said, "We wanted we. always wanted to trick people, but we. didn't really want to trick people.". >> Right. Yes. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They were. fascinated by the fact that people could. be tricked. >> Yeah. >> And they wanted to explore that and make. fun of it. And they invited other people. to explore it and make fun of it, but it.

it wasn't to hurt anybody. That's they. were they weren't actually trying to. exploit anybody. Like the idea of having. you having you become a part become a. member, send in your dollar, become. ordained, buy into all that sales stuff. was to point out that that's what was. going on in the real world, you know. >> Yeah. And this sort of came to a head um. in the '9s when they it was just after. Coline, they had a live show planned in. Boston and Papa Joe Mama who was again.

their sort of scripted heel agent. provocator. got on I think a radio show. and somehow referenced Coline. It was a. little unclear. >> I think he blamed Coline on the Church. of the Subenius. >> Oh, was that what it was? >> I believe so. >> Okay. cuz I couldn't quite tell what the. reference was, but it was clear that. that was over the line for for both Pho. and Stang. >> And the show was originally cancelled by. the theater and then a real church, I.

think like an Episcopal church stepped. up weirdly and said, "You can have it at. our church." And then they got bomb. threats and they said, "Well, no, I. guess we can't do that." And then I. think they ended up having it in a a. like a public park or something weird. But that was sort of like where it, you. know, the the '9s weren't too kind to. the not just like the numbers, but you. know, once the internet was born and. that was like really when the consumer. culture and the internet boom happened. for real, it was just so antithetical to.

the Church of the Subgenius, it seemed. to kind of fade away um. >> until later on when the internet kind of. helped revive it again. So my take is. that the the what really kind of let it. downhill. not to say that there's like like it not. to say that it's it went downhill on its. own like that just just the world. changed. >> Yeah. >> And there was there like it the world. became the parody not it wasn't like.

straight any longer. It was just a a. joke but that was real life now. So you. can't satarize something that is the. satire that you're coming up with. There's just no way to do it. >> No, that's absolutely right. >> And that's, you know, America changed. quite a bit in the last like 20 years. And the the like what do you like how. you just can't you can't satarize. something when it becomes this. weird version of itself that you were. using before it encroached on your turf. kind of thing, you know?

>> Yeah. And then the last like 10 minutes. of the documentary sort of focus on the. Trump administration and these fringe. groups that started online there saying. this crazy madeup stuff. And. >> uh that really puts a hurting like you. said on something like the Church of the. Subenius um as far as being and their. numbers were never huge. >> But uh I get the idea from watching it. that Stang still has people that write. in that still send him some money. He. told one funny joke about getting a a.

payment upon receipt envelope that like. he had to pay $2 to even open this thing. and he was all perturbed about that and. there was $1,000 in cash in it. >> Really? >> And he took half of it and immediately. took it to a sick friend. Like that's. the kind of guy he is. >> Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he struck me as. that as well. >> But he's still, you know, paying his. mortgage, stuffing envelopes. Well, yeah, because I think like if you go. back and you read the original books and. you know, even still, I was reading like. the Wikia that explained all of the.

different stuff um is hilarious and like. totally worthwhile and still applies. today. Um like it's like in a in a. certain way it's timeless even though it. screams Reagan era, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but the the it's still it still makes. sense because we still have like a. consumer-driven culture that is a that. has a lot to do with gender norms and. conformity and um exploiting people for. their labor. >> Um like all that stuff is still going.

on. So the original stuff still still. stands and still holds. >> Yeah. And they you know Mark Mothersp of. DVO and um I can't remember the other. guy's name in D.V.O. they were way into. it. Pin Gillette, Nick Offerman, Richard. Linkladder, Paul Rubin's Peewee Herman's. Playhouse had a Bob Dobs on his big wall. collage. >> These were all people that were. attracted to it. It was a lot of dudes, of course. >> Uh, but they do interview a few of the. women in the original group that said. like, "We were outcasts and we wanted to.

meet these weirdo guys and this is where. we did it." Like, we went there because. it was mostly guys. >> Yeah. >> And and you know, we could meet these. these dudes. Uh, but it was very male. oriented and um I don't know. I just. like I said, I never I always had fun. reading about it and hearing about it, but never wanted to get too involved. just cuz I'm too much of a pink, I. guess. >> Yeah. Yes, it is a lot of fun to read. about for sure. Like there's a lot of. stuff out there on the internet to read.

Um, and I. >> This is like 10% of it. >> I encourage. Yeah, there's there it's. huge. It's an enormous huge rambling. Um, like what do you call a group of uh. beliefs in in scripture and doctrine? >> Mythos, I guess, >> maybe. >> Um, >> yeah, canon. >> Yeah, canon. That's what I was looking. for. There's a huge extensive cannon. And it's a lot of fun. Especially the. older stuff. Some of the newer stuff is. not that funny because it's and I don't. mean new, I mean like mid 2000s, the mid. as kind of stuff started to really lose.

its sense of humor or some people lost. their sense of humor and got real. serious about it. The the 80s and 90s. stuff is hilarious. >> Um, I strongly recommend going to read. uh an explanation of the maleto female. discrepancy in the church of the. subgenius by Reverend Nancy Regalia. Um. and uh. >> or by the real book. >> Yeah. Well, I don't think that was in. the book. That was just supplemental. stuff. It was an essay explaining it. But it also is more like a kind of a.

call to arms for those girls who never. felt like or always recognized that they. were kind of being forced into certain. gender roles and didn't never feel good. about it. Um yeah, she she had it quote, "It's it's not enough to simply burn. your bras. Why stop there? Burn a few. bridal boutiques in city hall while. you're at it. It's just it's a good it's a good essay. for sure. Totally worth reading. So. >> good stuff. >> Yeah, there's a lot more to say about. the Church of the Subenius, but we'll. just leave it to you. I feel like we.

should just part with it's a joke. It is. a joke. Ultimately, it's a joke and take. it as that. Okay, man. You got that down. You got some. Yeti in you, Pink Boy. >> Maybe. >> Uh, and since I called Chuck a pink boy, it's time for listener mail. Uh, keeping it short and sweet here with. a quick correction from a new listener. Okay. >> Hi guys. I'm a very new listener and I. love what I've heard so far. However,

just three episodes in about the Magna. Carta, one of you off-handedly suggested. that William the Conqueror was a beloved. English king because he annexed Normandy. after the Battle of Hastings. >> That was me. >> That's pretty much backwards, guys. He. was a Norman king who conquered England. at that battle. >> William story would make a great. episode. That is from Scott Scattergood. in Suan, Korea. >> Well, Scott, since you're new, you. obviously don't know that most of the. viewpoint that we give on stuff you. should know is from the Vikings. viewpoint.

So, we had it right. Okay, good. Uh, Scott Scattergood. What a great name, >> right? >> Yeah. What happens if you scramble Scott. around? Scatters good. Uh, if you want to get in touch with us. like Scott did, you can send us an email. to stuffodcasts@ iheartradio.com. [Music]. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple.

Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].