Selects: The Manhattan Grid | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everybody. It is uh on our COVID. timeline, June 18th, 2020. And I am here to introduce the episode. on the Manhattan grid. I loved loved. this episode. I think as most people. know by now, I in particular am pretty obsessed with. um. not just New York, like I love New York. as a town, but but the inner workings of. New York and the garbage collection and. the mail delivery and. building that city up from the ground. up, which is what this episode relates. to. It was how they laid out that.

Manhattan grid. And uh here's one thing I remember from. it and here's a fun tip if you're. traveling to New York. Uh they use spikes. in the ground, I think iron spikes, >> [music]. >> to uh map out that grid and you'll learn. that in this episode to follow. Uh. you know, so they knew where the streets. and the street corners would meet up in. that big uh rectangle. And. to this day, you can still find some of. those. Um the only place I know about. them, I'm not sure if they're in um on. the streets anymore at all.

>> [music]. >> It seems highly unlikely, but I know you. can find them for a fact in Central Park. here and there in the rocks, those big. giant boulders there because I learned. about these and when I was in New York. uh sometime between June 18th, 2020 when. we released this and now, uh I can't remember, I feel like it's a. few years ago, I saw one of those. spikes. And I think I talked about that. on a on a later episode, but it thrilled. me to no end and I geeked out and told. everybody I was with what that was and. what it represented. And it was uh it. was a real thrill for me, no lie. Uh. just a spike in the in the rock.

>> [music]. >> Thought it was super cool. So, check. this episode out on the Manhattan grid. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles [music]. W. Chuck Bryant and this is Stuff You. Should Know. Another in our endless. annals of New York City edition.

>> That's right. Uh this is. pretty interesting episode, I think, and. my favorite part about it, this was uh. Dave Roos, our. one of our writers, helped put this. together, and Dave. uh is clearly annoyed. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> about this whole thing, and I think it's. hysterical how many times. he gets annoyed by the laziness. >> Yeah. >> of the commission. >> I have to say I agreed with Dave, too. I. was annoyed by it as well. I think.

>> Yeah. >> It's It's always annoying when you see. somebody like have a great opportunity. and just. pee it away, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, and we should also point out Dave. got a lot of his information from a. really wonderful book called City on a. Grid {colon}. How New York Became New York by Gerard. Koeppel. >> Not Gerald McRaney, different Gerald. >> Right, or is it Koeppel? I think it's. Koeppel if it's k o e. >> That's what I was going with was. Koeppel.

>> Yeah, I'm going to get this book though. This is This is right at my alley cuz. you know I'm obsessed with the history. and the. sort of formation of New York City as we. know it today. >> Yeah, where'd you get the idea for this. episode? >> Just my constant desire to learn. about. Mannahatta and how that became. eventually Manhattan that we know and. love. >> Okay. >> I'm just fascinated by it. I love it. I. love everything about it. >> This is definitely big chapter in it. because what we're talking about is the. plan called the Commissioners' Plan of. 1811 that basically laid out Manhattan.

as we know and understand and love it. today. Everything north of Houston Street, I. should say. >> Yeah, and here's sort of a quick primer. is. uh Manhattan above Houston is. almost a perfect grid. Um Broadway kind. of screws everything up. >> Boo. >> But, you know, great street, but it's. it's just Broadway's like, "I'm not. following any rules. So, I'm going to confuse people." But, aside from that, it's it's pretty much a.

a grid uh of 11 numbered avenues that. run north to south, generally speaking. >> Mhm. >> Then, you've got Lexington, Park, and. Madison Avenues. And then, uh 200. and this was at the time numbered. streets running roughly east to west. And if you want to get a little more. granular than that, um the southernmost street in the East. Village is East 1st, as you would. imagine. >> Mhm. >> Uh the northernmost is 220th Street.

uh as we live and breathe today. in Inwood. >> Well, that's on the island, technically. in Manhattan, if you're talking about. the borough. It goes up to 227th, I believe. >> Right. And if you want to go through the. Bronx, you go all the way up to 263. >> Man, that's crazy. >> Um you've got an. >> That's so many streets. >> That's so many streets. You've got an. >> That's 263 [laughter] streets. >> You've got an east and west signifier,

which says, and this is sort of a a. dummy's guide to getting around New York. for the first time, too, >> Mhm. >> if you, you know, broke your smartphone. And you also don't want to walk around. just staring at your smartphone the. whole time. >> No, you're going to miss a lot. >> Yeah, so try and get a little intuitive. feel, cuz it's really easy to get around. if you know this stuff. Um. east and west will signify whether. you're east or west of 5th Avenue. >> Mhm. >> And then, here's a little trick, too. Odd-numbered street uh streets run west,

even-numbered streets run east. So, if you come out of a subway. and you and you know which way north, south, east, and west are, >> Mhm. >> then you will never do the thing that I. always do and walk in the wrong. direction trying to go up or down. >> Yeah, because that's the thing. Like, if. you know what direction you're facing. and you know where you're trying to go. and where you are right now, you can. basically make make your way anywhere in. Manhattan above Houston Street. >> Yeah, and if you're like me and you have.

no idea ever what's north, south, east, and west in New York. >> I don't either. >> I had an easy time in LA cuz LA has uh. >> The sun? >> Well, they have they have that, but they. also have um geographical landmarks that. make it super easy to tell which way. north and like the Hollywood sign and. the the hills and stuff like that. >> Is that real? Is the Hollywood sign. real? >> What do you [laughter] mean is it real? >> I'm just kidding. >> Okay. Um so, that makes it a lot easier in New.

York. When I come out there, all those. big tall buildings, I never know. I can. never come out and say like, "Well, that's north.". Um but, if you know that stuff and you. know that the even-numbered streets run. east, the odd ones run west, then uh you can you won't walk in the. wrong direction for a block and then get. there like I do and go, "Oh, we should. have gone the other way.". >> Yeah, because depending on what. direction you're walking, if you're. walking north or south, going the wrong. direction in a block isn't that bad, but. if you're going east or west, it's real. bad. >> Well, like sure.

>> very long blocks going east to west and. that's all part of that commissioner's. plan that was laid out in 1811. And on the one hand, you know, we've kind of hit upon the. pros and the cons of it that it's easy. to get around, which is really something. because New York is absolutely huge, but. you could make it from one end to the. other without a map, just knowing that it's on a grid and how. the grid's laid out, um even roughly. But, the problem is is it's on a grid. and a grid is one of the least organic.

shapes around. And because this grid. stretches over almost all of Manhattan, most of Manhattan for sure, um it it. it's viewed by a lot of people as kind. of soulless and canyon-esque because. you're just totally surrounded almost. constantly by big imposing buildings all. at these right angles, which it feels. like a very built environment. Um and. until Central Park came along, which we. did a episode on in what the 1850s or. 60s?

>> Yeah. >> Like that was it. That was New York. There was nothing but that built. environment. >> I got a few more of my things. >> Oh, okay. Let's have them, bud. >> Uh Manhattan's about 13 and 1/2 mi long. and then so this grid makes sense, but. then once you get north of 59th Street, you start to get like Atlanta does and. a road will just change names. >> Mhm. >> out of nowhere. Atlanta is very famous. for that. People get very confused here. >> It is very confusing also because the. road will change names, but one of the. names, Peachtree, will still be there,

but it's a totally different street. >> Right. >> And it does not help things. >> That's right. Uh so north of 59th. um avenues on the west side change. names, but avenues on the east side do not. >> Mhm. >> So 8th becomes Central Park West, 9th. becomes Columbus Avenue, 10th becomes Amsterdam Avenue, and 11th. becomes West End Avenue. >> What about Avenue of the Americas? >> Well, that's 6, right? Or is that 7th? >> Oh, man. I I thought I think it's 6.

That's my understanding. >> But that's really not a name change. That's just uh. that's something that that tourists call. it. >> Right. I remember you making fun of me. when I called it that. Did I really? >> Yeah, it was That sounds about right. >> It was really jarring. >> Uh and then to get. people really confused, uh between 3rd. and 5th Avenue, there are three avenues. uh instead of what you would think would. be one because Lexington, Park, and. Madison fall between those. >> Yep. >> And then south of 23rd, you've got your.

lettered avenues. >> Okay. >> A, B, C, and D, which is Alphabet City. >> So, you wouldn't need to ever pull out a. map, you just have to stand in the. middle of New York and listen to the. first like 10 minutes of this episode. and you'll find your way no problem. >> All right, should we get into this? You. said people don't like the grid. Uh. there are there are a lot of people. um I mean, what did Walt Whitman call. it? >> Uh icky, I think. >> No, I think he said he he called it one.

perpetual dead flat. >> Yeah, and streets cutting each other at. right angles are certainly the last. things in the world consistent with. beauty of situation. >> Now, how about this one from Edith. Wharton? Rectangular New York, this. cramped horizontal gridiron of a town. without towers, porticos, fountains, or. perspectives hidebound in its deadly. uniformity of mean ugliness. >> Yeah, I like hidebound. That's great. >> That's a great word. >> And mean ugliness definitely captures. like a certain.

sense of New York depending on your your. mood or mindset, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um there's one a guy named Peter Marcuse. who's a architecture critic. He said. that the grid layout of Manhattan was. one of the worst city plans of any major. city in the developed countries of the. world. >> Right, but some people love it. Some. people said it was pragmatic. Some. people said it really accommodated for. the one thing it needed to accommodate. for which was massive growth. >> Right. >> Uh let me see here. The um.

an architect named Rafael Veno- Vinoly. who's I think a modern architect, not. modern. I just mean current architect. >> Right. >> But he may do modern work, you know. Uh he said the grid is the the best. manifestation of American prag-. matism. pragmatism. >> [laughter]. >> in the in the creation of urban form. And then in 1978 a Dutch architect named. Rem Koolhaas. said that the grid was the most. courageous act of prediction in Western.

civilization, clearly talking about the. uh the growth. >> Yes, but courageous act. That's like architect talk right there. right [laughter] there. So, but for the most part from what I. understand and definitely Dave says the. same thing, um most New Yorkers, especially born and raised New Yorkers, are not happy that that's how their city. is laid out. That there's a lot of room. for improvement. Is that your. experience, too? >> Sure, I mean Central Park is great, but.

it you know, as we'll find out, they did. not. uh they don't didn't really plan for. green spaces and New York has done their. best to kind of carve them out since. then. >> Mhm. >> But, you know, let let's get into this. commission. >> Well, let's talk about grids first. Do. you want to? >> Yeah, all right. Do you want to take a. break and then talk about the the grid. story? >> Yes. [laughter]. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> So, uh New York didn't invent the grid. as much as they like to boast that they. did. They did not. In fact, a grid. layout of a city um goes back to the. Indus Valley civilization that for some. reason keeps popping up in the last like. year or so. I guess they're going to.

make a comeback or something like that, but they've just been coming out all. over the place. Um but one of the What. was it, Chuck? Was it. Did they invent the zipper? >> I don't think it was a zipper. What was. it? >> Indigo? >> Uh. I don't know. >> a There's been a number of them, but. anyway, at about at least 5,000 years. ago the Indus Valley civilization was. using the grid layout to create uh. Mohenjo-Daro, um which is a a 750-acre city on a grid.

Um, and then shortly after that, the. Greeks said, "I really like this." In. fact, there's a a Greek, thinker and math- mathematician named. Hippodamus, who's known as the father of. city planning, and he was bully for. grids, too. >> Yeah, if you have a grid, that's still. they people still call that the. Hippodamian plan, which is kind of great, all these years. later, to still get recognized for your. grid work. >> Yeah, if you're ever talking to somebody. and they refer to a grid as a. Hippodamian plan, that person knows what.

they're talking about. >> Or listens to this show. >> Um, that it's one in the same, basically. >> And you're going to say that. Uh, let me see, the conquistadors of. Spain, they kind of had a habit of coming in, conquering, and then having their. template in place to create these grids, um, as what they called the Law of the. Indies, and they would sort of just come in, set. up shop, you got a. a town with a big central plaza, and. then a grid surrounding that central.

plaza. >> Right. And they they used that for. everything from, uh, Lima to Los. Angeles. Um, and this took me back in in. my mind to, um, what was the name of that colonial town. in Guatemala that we visited? >> Oh, yeah. I know I know what you mean. It was it was wonderful. >> Driving me crazy. It really was. wonderful. It was one of the most. beautiful towns I've ever been in. But. it had like a central plaza with a. fountain. Uh, it was a much smaller. town, but, um, now that I think about.

it, it was laid out on a grid, too. And. it was part of that Law of the Indies. that you were mentioning, that it was. just like, this is how you build a town. And apparently, the reason that they. they, um, used that that law like in. town after town after town that they. just basically took over and said, "This. is ours now. was it's Spain's." is. applying a grid was um, kind of a a. metaphor for applying order and. civilization to a formerly.

disordered and wild indigenous. you know, town. >> Yeah. >> Which makes sense from a colonizer's. perspective, but I'm sure it sucked from. the indigenous person's perspective. >> Like everything else. >> Yeah. What's with this [laughter] stupid. right angle stuff? >> So, New York City comes along. Um. Philadelphia had been laid out in a grid. by William Penn. Very deliberately. though. Um and that grid was kind of roomy and. spacious because William Penn did not.

like the congestion of London. >> No. >> Uh but again, Philly very much. purposeful. >> Same with DC, too. >> Yeah. Boy, DC has a has a kind of a. crazy grid. >> Yeah, but once you understand it, it. makes total sense numbers and letters. wise and directions. Yeah. >> I always get lost in DC. >> It takes more getting used to than New. York to from from. my experience and what I understand. >> Yeah, for sure. So, the Commissioners' Plan of 1811 is.

really sort of the demarcation point. between what was first New York, uh New Amsterdam, and then what we now. know as Manhattan because anyone who's. ever seen uh. I'm going to say Games of New York, Gangs of New York, >> Mhm. >> knows that those were crazy days down. there in Lower Manhattan and things just. sort of sprouted up organically from the. river upward as far as the layout and. the design. Uh and you know, it you can still feel.

that when you go down to Lower. Manhattan, which is why I love. the the villages now. I think it's just. uh. I mean, I I like the simplicity of the. grid, but. >> Yeah. >> I think what I love about Lower. Manhattan is how organic it feels. >> It's a jumble. And I mean, it's a jumble. for a reason because those streets. largely follow these original organic. paths that the Dutch settlers and. earliest English settlers basically. said, "Oh, we need to get from the. waterfront up, you know, to the common lands or whatever. So,

here's a good path and this path happens. to meander around a salt marsh and we. avoid having to go up a hill by going. around this way. So, it's kind of like. meandering and it's it's definitely. locked in time from those streets down. there in in lower Manhattan. I like it, too, but it is very easy to be like, "Are we Are you sure we're going the. right direction still?" It's very easy. to get lost in those cuz it isn't at all. a grid. >> Yeah, I've spent enough time in lower. Manhattan now to where I can landmark. it. Like it's just familiar enough to me.

to where I kind of know like this block. and that block. >> Right. >> So, I know where I'm going. And you mentioned something important. I. don't think we've even kind of said that. New York was not all this just big one. big flat slab 13 miles long. that we love today because you can walk. forever without ever getting out of. breath cuz it's not Seattle. >> Right. >> Um New York was swampland and had hills. and marshes and creeks and rocks and it.

was, you know, it was kind of wild East. Coast territory. >> Yeah, and. I mean, the reason that those marshes. and the ponds and hills and stuff aren't. there anymore is because of this 1811. Commissioners Plan that basically said, "Tear it all down, fill it all in, build. this over it." And they did. That's the. most astounding thing is they did. That. they they, you know, as we'll see, they. passed a law that basically said, "We're. We're going to appoint a commission of. three people. They're going to come up. with this plan.

and whatever they come up with is law. It can't be challenged in court. It. we're not going to back back it up and. and change it in any way." And And. really didn't. As bad as the plan was in. almost every way, they really stuck to. it. But the thing that struck me, I had. no idea about this, um was that the the. 1811 Commissioners' Plan was just a. rip-off of another earlier surveying map. that basically provided the basis of.

this of the Commissioners' Plan. Not. even the basis of it. They weren't like, "Oh, we'll take this as a starting. point." They just said, "We'll take. this, print it, and put our names on. it." And that's ultimately what. happened. >> Yeah, so pre-Revolutionary. War, um. most of Manhattan was in that lower. third of the island. And we got into big-time debt because of. the Revolutionary War. >> Mhm. >> And so the city said in the 1780s, "All. right, here's what we got to do. We own. tons of land, uh publicly owned land,

and all this marshy, kind of reedy, rocky, pondy area, um it's not developed. Let's sell this. stuff off. and make some dough. Uh it's called the. common lands. >> Mhm. >> And we need somebody to get in there and. just sort of, you know, survey this and. plot it all out so we know exactly how. to best sell this.". >> Yeah, so they hired a guy named Casimir. Theodore Goerck. That's what I'm going with is Goerck. >> Sure. >> Uh it's not a cucumber, it's a gherkin. >> [laughter].

>> Do you remember Mr. Cabbage Head from. Kids in the Hall? >> Sure. >> Um well, this had nothing to do with. that, right? >> Right. >> Um so this this uh surveyor actually. went through the common lands. Like. basically, what we understand is all of. Manhattan between uh Houston. and North Harlem. He just went across and broke it into. 500-acre parcels. He had a 66-foot chain. on his um surveying poles. And so he said, "Well, I'll just use.

that as the the basic measurement for. the widest streets. 66 feet is what it's. going to be.". >> I think he said 500 acre parcels. Weren't they 5 acre? >> Oh, yes. I'm sorry. >> Bigger big diff. >> Yeah, [laughter] it's a little bit of a. difference. They were 5 acre parcels, so. that's even more work. That's 100 times. more work than what I described. >> That's right. So, um. he laid them out as a grid because he. wasn't like this guy wasn't out to say, "Here's how Manhattan should be built.". >> Right, right. This is the best way to.

promote the future of growth in. Manhattan. >> No, that was not his charge. His charge. was like, "Hey, let's just divide this. stuff up and sell it.". >> Mhm. >> Um he had some interesting constraints. Uh they had to be 5 acres. >> Yeah. >> Uh they had to have a central road that. um all of these could could sort of. access like fairly easily. >> Right. >> And then he had a survey chain. It's. crazy to think about this was one of the. things that informed what is modern New. York. His survey chain was 66 ft. So, he said, "All right, that's how wide the road. is.". >> Yeah, exactly. So, I think that was like.

the the widest road, the central access. road. He called that one middle. And now. I believe that's Fifth Avenue is middle. What was originally Middle Road back in. 1796. >> Yeah, that's adorable. >> So, he carved this up this place up into. um into these plots that are um 200 ft. on the east and west boundaries of it, so going up and down, running. north-south, but if you're on the plot, it'd be on the east side of the plot and.

the west side of the plot. If that was. not confusing before, it is now. >> Yeah. >> And then across or the width was 920 ft. That was the Those were the plots. He. said, "Here you go. This is a There's a. bunch of them up there, but I've carved. up all of these common lands, and you. can start selling them if you want.". >> Yeah, did you mention the names of the. other two roads? >> Oh, yeah. He said, "I'm going to I'm. going to put two more in of these 66 ft. wide roads." And uh he had some very. clever names for them.

>> Yeah, one was middle, remember? Yeah. The one to the east he named East. And the one to the west he named West. >> Yeah, which which makes sense if you're. looking at it from if you're on the. middle road, to the east is the east. road, to the west is the west road, but. they run north-south. >> Right. >> Man, I hate directions. >> And like you said, that was fifth in the. center, so that's now fourth, fifth, and. sixth ave. >> Right. Or fourth avenue, fifth avenue.

>> And the avenues that you mix. >> [laughter]. >> You know, you're really not supposed to. say that. What a jerk. I can't believe I. said that. >> You didn't say it like that. >> I didn't? >> You just you just made sure that you. waited till a crowd had gathered and and. really laid into me. >> I think I remember that. Was that our. first trip to New York? >> Probably. >> Man. >> Probably. >> That's funny. We've been back a couple. of times since then as a team, huh? >> Yeah, I know. I've got some really great. memories of New York. >> I miss it. >> Yeah, it's been a while. >> 2021, we will see you again.

>> Yes, we will, New York. Don't you worry. >> At least I hope so. There are no. guarantees, right? >> No, we will see New York again. >> All right. So, do we take another break? I feel like. there's still a lot. >> There's still a lot. We should keep. going for now, I think. >> All right. So, in 1807, this is when the. New York state legislature said, "You. know what? We need to like we're growing. here. It's clear that this southern tip. of Manhattan is just the beginning.". >> Mhm. >> So, they passed a bill that they. described as an act of.

an act relative to improvements touching. the laying out of the streets and roads. in the city of New York and for other. purposes. >> Right, which makes sense, but like I. said. that this law they decided to just vest. absolute authority into these three. commissioners and said, "We're going to. follow whatever they come up with. Whatever they that seems to them most. conducive to public good, we're just. going to take on its face that it is. most conducive to public good and just.

go with it. >> That's crazy that it was just three. people and that it wasn't like 10 teams. of three people submitting the best. designs that then would be gone over and. voted on like. >> Yeah, like no one took this no one took. it seriously weirdly enough. >> Right. So, who were these guys? >> So, there were three commissioners. appointed. One was Gouverneur Morris. Uh. his first name was Gouverneur. Um he was one of the founding fathers. He wrote a lot of the Constitution. including the preamble. >> Yeah. >> Um he had a peg leg. He lost his leg in.

a carriage accident. Um although there. was rumors that it was something else, but he was known as a uh they put it an. energetic philanderer. But he was apparently a very uh likable. Benjamin Franklin-esque kind of dude um. who seemed to be fairly smart, but had. really no uh understanding of surveying. as far as I can tell. >> Now, then uh his nephew-in-law, John. Rutherford, he's he was a landowner in. New Jersey. In fact, I think the largest.

landowner in New Jersey at the time. >> Mhm. >> And by all accounts, it looks like this. was pure nepotism. He was late for. meetings. He was not especially. interested even to the annoyance of. Gouverneur Morris. >> All the reasons to not exercise nepotism. this guy brought to the table as 1/3 of. this commission who's figuring out how. to lay out the plan for New York City. >> That's right. And then the third guy uh. Simon Le Bon. No, no, no. Simeon De Witt. >> Mhm. >> Excuse me. And this guy actually knew.

what he was doing. He was a really. very respected, accomplished surveyor, worked with George Washington. I think. it eventually became the. which I didn't even know was a thing, was the. uh official surveyor for the Continental. Army and then the surveyor general of. New York State. >> Right. So, he knew what he was doing. which makes his role all the more. shameful. That he didn't say like, "Oh well, we. really got to we got to get cracking. It's been 3 years and we got 4 years to.

do this thing.". >> Maybe he did though, who knows? He might. have been completely run over by these. other two chumps. >> Oh, and he just got shouted down, I. guess. >> Well, at the very least Governor Morris. was also one of the founding members of. the commission that created the Erie. Canal, which was for a very long time. considered one of the greatest public. works projects in the history of. America, certainly in the history of New. York State. Um and that kind of energy. and imagination and drive just did not. make it to this 1811 commission for the. planning of New York.

>> if he. I mean, this sounds cynical, but I. wonder if he literally was like. "Man, that Erie Canal project really. was a big bummer in how hard we had to. work, and let's just kind of Hey, look. at these maps that this guy drew to sell. off uh New York. Let's Let's just use. those.". >> Yeah, so that's I mean, that's kind of. what they did. Like they they had 4. years. or they took 4 years. I'm not sure how. long they had, but they they took 4. years um from 1807 to 1811.

um to turn in their report. 4 years of meeting sporadically, true, but they still met over these this. 4-year period. >> Mhm. >> They came up with an 11-page report. to lay out these 13 miles in length, not. not even square miles, um of Manhattan, these common lands all. the way from Houston Street up to North. Harlem. Um they came up with 11 pages to. explain their map. And their map really. made sense as a grid, but again, they. stole the grid from Casimir Gork.

I can't remember what I called him. before. >> Gerk. >> I'm going with Gork now. Okay, sure. Um but they didn't give him any credit. for it whatsoever. >> No, I mean, I I know want to go so far. as to call it a tracing project. But, you know, they borrowed pretty. heavily. Like the streets and the. avenues. were basically the exact same. When, you. know, earlier you mentioned the blocks. were 200 by 920 ft.

>> in From Gurk from Gurk, right? >> Yeah, this this had the [clears throat]. exact same layout and that was no. accident. >> No, and they were in virtually the same. spot. They did do some stuff, you know, they didn't just take his his map like. you were saying and trace it and call it. their own. They they made some changes. to it. They um created instead of the. three middle east and west, they created. 12 avenues running north-south. to and not not true north-south, but. just, you know, for our purposes north. and south. And then they created 155.

numbered streets. >> Yeah, but they did that. >> What? >> They added this stuff, but it sort of. just copy-paste. >> Kind of kind of, but the big thing is so. adding the 12 numbered avenues was. definite change to Gurk's. Gork's. Never going to say the same thing twice. >> But was it? >> Yeah, because he only had the three. >> I know, but he just had the three and. they were like, well, we need more, so. let's just do what he did all over the. place. >> Sure, sure. Okay, all right. Yeah, that's fair. >> That's fair. Yeah, I'm not there these.

guys are definitely not a hill I'm. willing to die on. >> [laughter]. >> So, say what you will about them. I. think they're lazy schmoes, too. >> All right. >> And then they took these they took these. cross streets that are formed by the the. the surveying of these blocks and turn. them into numbered streets. So, avenues. running north-south, they were the big. ones. 155 numbered streets running east. to west. Um they they widened the. avenues. They said they're going to be. 100 ft wide. I guess they had a longer. surveying chain. >> chain. >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> Um and then they widened some of the.

cross streets to I guess ease. congestion. Um I think they uh widened. 15 of them total. >> Yeah, they I think the other streets. were 60 ft and then 15 of them went to. 100. >> Mhm. >> at 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 72nd, 79th, 86th, 96th, 106th, 116th, 125th, 135th, 145th, and 155th. >> Right. >> But why? Why those particular ones? >> There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or.

reason because if you notice, they. didn't really hit their stride in the. keeping them separated by 10 10 cross. streets until 86th Street. >> Yeah. >> So there's not really much rhyme or. reason there. >> When they only did that for three of. them. Right. Four of them. >> And then the um the the the streets that. they did choose to widen didn't. necessarily make much sense one way or. the other. Like for example, 71st Street. was already fairly wide. It was. definitely wider than 72nd Street, but.

they decided to make 72nd Street the. widened um the widened cross street. rather than 71st. And apparently no one knows why. The. closest thing I could find is there's. some record in 1857. uh of somebody having to remove a big. rock from 72nd Street to widen it. >> That's funny. >> doesn't even explain or make sense. because there was a bunch of houses that. had to be torn down to make 72nd Street. widened rather than 71st which was.

already wide. >> And had almost no houses. >> Exactly. So these guys were just. When you start to compile all the. evidence, we'll we'll kind of pay more. out. It really seems like these guys. didn't even go to the common lands, that. maybe they were just working from. Gurck's map. Or if they did go to the common lands, they took zero notes or paid zero. attention and that all of this came from. a place of laziness and ignorance. Like.

not knowing that 72nd was wider than. 71st or vice versa. um would explain that decision more than. anything else. >> Yeah, if the other another uh example is. if you've ever been on the west side and. you feel like, "Man, these avenues are. big." It's because they are. The avenues. on the east side are spaced at 650 and. 610 ft apart. >> Mhm. >> or 610 ft apart and on the west they are. all 800 ft apart for no reason. >> No reason at all.

>> Yeah. >> It doesn't make any sense. Again, it. just it it seems like they just phoned. this in and what's even more astounding. is that New York's. founding fathers said, "Okay, we're. going to do exactly what you say without. questioning it.". >> Yeah, and actually we kind of do have. the reason if you read closely and we'll. tell you the secret reason right after. this. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> Was that a cliffhanger? >> It was great. I'm still a little tense. waiting for you [clears throat] to pay. it off. >> All right, here's the real reason. everyone and it all lies in this quote. that is pulled from their commission. report. If it should be asked why the. why was the present plan adopted in. preference to any other, the answer is.

because after taking all circumstances. into consideration. it appeared to be the best. or in other more proper terms attended. with the least inconvenience. >> I think that's the magic phrase right. there. >> That last phrase, attended with the. least inconvenience, and Dave rightfully. says. what is obvious, which is. inconvenient for the three. commissioners. >> Yeah, because their plan was.

extraordinarily inconvenient for. basically everyone involved. Like there. was. very from the people who were in charge. of like making this this like building. this grid or this plan to um the people. who were already living in places that. were torn down to make this grid. >> Yeah, 40% of places were torn down. to to adhere to this plan, this 1811. Commission plan. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. Um and again, when you start to add all. the stuff up, it does seem like the.

least inconvenient for the the three. commissioners. >> Yeah. >> And the fact that if that is true and. they just included that as kind of like. a cheeky little joke, you know, these guys are. they're in not not necessarily burning. in hell, but they're they're probably in. purgatory somewhere. >> I also have a lot of respect for that. kind of laziness at times, so. >> The kind that makes fun of itself in. public documents? >> Well, just just is that. upfront about about the fact like, you.

know what? I didn't really want to work. too hard on this, so here's here it is. >> Right. >> So, uh. yeah, it was very inconvenient for. everyone but them. Uh they did this. because of the growth population they. expected. So, it sort of made sense, but. they did even got that wrong. They were. wrong by about half of what they thought. the growth rate was going to be. >> Yeah, that's that's the thing is they. were saying like, okay, this is the the. this affords um. enough population growth to afford a.

population greater than any other this. side of China is how they put it. Um so. they they clearly did have at least. growth on their mind and that if you. build on a grid, it affords for the most. growth, it's the easiest to build on, right-angled structures are the easiest. to build and settle and live in. Um but. the thing is is. part of that law, the 1807 law that. established the commission charged them. with creating public squares. Although.

it said uh in in size and form and all. that in number that the commissioners. see fit. Unfortunately, the. commissioners didn't see fit to make. almost any kind of public gathering. places, especially green spaces for um. mental health, I guess is what you would. call it. >> Yeah, and their reasoning is kind of uh. kind of BS actually. Um I'm not sure which one it was. I. guess it was Morris that. I'm not going to read the whole quote, but he basically said, "Hey, listen,

we don't have the Seine River or the. Thames winding through the middle of. town, but what we do have. are these two wonderful rivers that just. kind of hug Manhattan, and that's enough. because everyone's just going to go hang. out at the river all the time. >> Right. >> cuz it's beautiful and gorgeous and you. can swim in it. >> [snorts]. >> And the East River and the Hudson River. will forever be our green space, basically. >> Yeah, basically that that was that the. city had enough. It didn't need green.

spaces because of the East and the. Hudson rivers. And um. like. in about 40 years, people are like, "No, we do. We need to build Central Park.". >> Yeah, which was a savior because uh I. think it says here. uh on their original plan, only 5% of. the grid was uh public green space. >> Mhm. >> And 240 of those 400 acres was a parade. ground. >> Yes, which I didn't know exactly where. that was. Do you? >> No, I'm not sure. Um.

I don't know. I mean, there you know, there's Washington Square Park. There. are some cool kind of central. promenades and things like that. And. then these. you know, New York's famous for these. tiny little slivers of a park um kind of. all over the place, but they're they're. small. >> They are they are very small, especially. compared to the surrounding areas, for. sure, and the buildings. >> That's why the High Line was such a big. deal. >> Yeah, it was a big deal and I remember. not quite grasping why. Now I definitely. do because there's just people need.

that. People need green space. They need. nature. They need to be like outside of. a built environment even if it's a built. natural environment. You know what I. mean? >> Yeah, and and Central Park is amazing. and we love it, but that's a. that's a long way if you're in southern. Manhattan to get up there. >> Right. Right. But basically these guys. said, "You don't need it. Go hang out at. the Hudson or the East River.". >> It's so wonderful and lovely. >> So the um there were a lot of people. like we said that were really unhappy. with this. Um this was a huge exercise.

of eminent domain. Um there were a lot. of people on these lands uh already. Remember Seneca Village uh that was. destroyed to create Central Park. >> Uh-huh. >> Um I they managed to survive the um 1811. commission. Um I can't remember how long. that was around, but I want to say. Seneca Village was around for a good 50. years before it was leveled in the. 1850s. So it would have been around on. the common lands during this time.

Um but there were like you said about 39. or 40% of homeowners or established. buildings had to be torn down. They. filled in ponds. They filled in salt. marshes. They completely altered the. ecosystem of stuff that could have been. built around or incorporated had they. stopped and thought about how to do. that. They just leveled everything and. built a grid over it. And so a lot of. people were really, really unhappy about. this. And they were particularly unhappy. that the um the the city administration.

was just sticking to this no matter. what. And there were a lot of lawsuits. and all of them from what I understand. it were unsuccessful. >> Oh yeah, for about 60 years there were. tons of lawsuits going on. And uh I know you said it was a big. eminent domain um. act, but it was I think still the. largest act of eminent domain in New. York City. >> Yeah. >> And that includes Central Park and the. uh. how we get our how they get their water, which was another good episode. >> Yeah, because I mean Central Park was. huge, but it's just a small sliver of.

this larger area. >> Yeah. Let's this one quote from. landowner Clement Clark Moore. >> Mhm. >> He published a pamphlet um about the. tyrannical commissioner's plan, and in. it it says this, "Nothing is to be left. unmolested which does not coincide with. the street commissioner's plummet and. level. These are men who would have cut. down the seven hills of Rome.". >> Burn. >> Big time. >> Yep. So, um. >> Didn't matter though. >> No, it it really didn't matter. They.

just went ahead with it blindly and. thoughtlessly and did. And again, like. it did accommodate growth. Uh although. they underestimated the growth, but it. took a little while for this stuff to. fill up. Um this this plan was delivered. in 1811, but it wasn't until 1875 that. enough people had started to move in. that there were more New Yorkers living. above 14th Street than there were living. below it. Cuz remember, I mean, Lower.

Manhattan was where it all began. So, that I mean, it took a little while to. fill in, and it didn't even necessarily. fill in uniformly. Um. by that same year in 1875, there still. 40,000 vacant lots left in this grid. plan, and that that was like a about. half of the space. >> Yeah. I love that fact. That's good. Dave has some nice facts here at the. end. Um. 1869, the very first apartment building. in New York was built. Uh called the the Stuyvesant.

And they called them it I don't even. think they called them apartments at the. time. It was called a French flat or a. French house. >> Mhm. >> But prior to that, it was, you know, tenement houses and houses. >> Right. >> so the Stuyvesant is built and everyone. thinks it's silly that anyone would want. to live in the same building as other. people. >> [snorts]. >> And they called it Stuyvesant's Folly. But um that it was at 142 East 18th. between Irving Place and 3rd. Uh and it.

was it was. a huge hit. Like people made fun of it. in the newspapers, but. people signed up to live there almost. immediately. It filled up. Uh it was. demoed and replaced in 1960. >> Mhm. >> But so this is 1869. Very It didn't take. long though. Uh in 1884 the Dakota was. built, which still stands today. So. apartment buildings kind of came into. fashion. I think probably due to Stuyvesant's. Folly. >> Yeah. I well, yeah. I mean it it went. over so well and so quickly that it.

really opened the way for more and more. to be built. >> Pretty cool. >> Um so one thing that people point to is. this Commissioners' Plan of 1811 is just. like that same principle or the same. significance that um the Spanish coming. in and and imposing a grid over an. indigenous settlement was somehow taming. the wild or the organic or something. like that. There's a this is the turning point. between kind of unplanned organic um.

much more harmonious naturally New York. and the planned modern New York that we. know and love today. This is where it. went from one to the other. Um almost. like flipping a switch. And granted for. it took decades and decades to to. realize this plan. But um. uh when it when it was delivered and. when it was adopted, that was that was. it. That that change happened and the.

the transition began. >> Yeah. It's pretty amazing. >> I think so, too. >> What else is there for New York, I mean. we. I figure we got water, we got the. subways covered, we got Central Park, we've got this. >> Yeah, um let's see. >> There can't be much else as far as just. the bones of Oh, I know what I want to. do is maybe how that how the mail and. the trash work. >> No, okay. All right, yeah. We did the. Rockettes once even, too. >> Oh, that's right. >> Well, I mean we've done a lot of New.

York topics. >> It's true. >> Uh okay. >> should have moved to a different city. Let's start talking about Des Moines. >> Holy cow, dude. >> [laughter]. >> I it almost simultaneously came out of. my mouth at the same time. >> Yes. >> It's so weird. >> It is weird. Uh it's in the zeitgeist, apparently. Uh you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. >> Okay. Well, if you want to know more. about New York, um just start reading. and then eventually travel there. Uh they'll give you the all clear when. they're ready. And since I said that,

it's time for listener mail. >> Uh hey guys, my 16-year-old son, Owen, is probs your biggest fan, for real. He also has narcolepsy. Appreciate you. taking uh on this topic and bringing. some understanding of it to the masses. He was diagnosed when he was 10 and it. affects every single aspect of his life. Think it has made him wise beyond his. years personally and compassionate to. other people with invisible struggles, but it still sucks.

>> Yeah. >> Uh if you ever want to read or hear. first-hand accounts from people with. narcolepsy, check out uh Julie Flygare. Uh that is f l y g a r e or Flygare, I'm. not sure. How would you say that? >> Oh, I like the I like the one with. flavor, the second one. >> Flygare? >> Uh-huh. [laughter]. >> Uh who is doing all kinds of advocacy. for people with narcolepsy, including a. scholarship foundation. Uh she founded. Project Sleep and Voices of Narcolepsy. She also wrote a great book about her. experiences with being diagnosed during.

law school [music] called Wide Awake and. Dreaming. When Owen received his diagnosis, I. reached out to her for help. She sent. Owen a care package with a book, a. t-shirt, wristbands, a very kind card, etc. to let him know that he's not. alone. That is very sweet. >> It is. >> I think she deserves an award for the. work she's doing. Anyway, a great. resource for sure. Thanks for the work. that you do. I mean, could we get an award? You know? >> We've won a Webby before, I think. >> Oh, that's true. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes it's fun and entertaining, but.

sometimes and often it's really. important and educational as well. Sincerely, the mom of your biggest fan, and that is from Brooke. >> Thanks, Brooke, and thanks, Owen, for. listening. It's really good to hear from. you guys. Um and I feel like we should. send Owen something, too. >> Sure. >> Let's do it, Chuck. We'll figure it out. >> We can't be showing up by this fly guy. already, person. >> No, no, no. Send us Send us your. physical address, and we'll mail you. something. >> That's right. Um and in the meantime, thanks for listening, [music]. and thanks for being a fan.

Uh and thank you for listening, and. thank you for being a fan, too. And if. you want to get in touch with us like. Brooke did, you can send us an email. [music] Wrap it up, spank it on the. bottom, and send it off to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts [music]. from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.