Selects: The Kitty Genovese Story | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this. week's select, I've chosen our 2016. episode on the murder of Kitty Genevese. Her story is fairly famous. She was. murdered while an entire apartment block. of people watched and did nothing. But. that's not exactly the real story. Like. most things in life, there's more to it, and we explained what actually happened. Uh, we relied a lot on the excellent. documentary, The Witness for this. episode, and I highly recommend watching. it. In the meantime, I hope you enjoy.

this one. [Music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and there's Jerry. So, this is. stuff you should know. Podcast. True crime edition. Actually, yeah. But. so much more than just a single crime.

Agreed. A crime that echoed throughout a. city, throughout the world, throughout. decades. And it's true, man. Like, there. are very few crimes you can point to. that had more of an impact than the. murder of Kitty Genevese. Agreed. Uh and. there are a lot of true crime podcasts. out there. We are not trying to become. one. No, this is just something we do. from time to time. Sure. Uh as I. researched this and as I watched Did you.

watch The Witness? Of course. The. documentary recently on Netflix right. now. It is HBO documentary. And um. I was disturbed and I'm glad it finally. covered it in the documentary, but I was. disturbed that Kitty Genevies and we'll. get to her murder, but very quickly she. was murdered and became the symbol for. um people not helping out, right? What. came to be known as bystander apathy or. the bystander effect that the the more. people who are around the less likely.

anyone is to help. Yeah. So she became. such a symbol that you never hear about. Kitty Genevies and who she was as a. person. And that was one great thing. about that documentary. There are. multiple great things about it, but that. it it really talked about her and showed. her and revived her spirit which I was. really looking for because even in. researching online, it's hard to get a. lot of information. So um some things. some even contemporary articles still.

aren't mentioning that she was gay. Well, yeah. Her her own brother who made. the documentary didn't know that she was. gay. No, it's true. But it's it's been. out since. I'm not sure when actually that came. out. Uh it was just this year. Oh, okay. So, it was fairly new. This year, last. year. Yeah. I thought it was in like in. the last five years maybe. So, in. honoring that, why don't we talk a. minute about Katherine Genevese Kitty? Yep. born in 1935 in Brooklyn uh to.

Vincent Andreel Genevese. Italian-American parents. Um and it's. weird I don't see Oh yeah. Rachel uh was. her mother's name. She was Rachel Petroi. at first. Mhm. So um they lived in. Brooklyn and she was very well-loved in. school. Yeah. She was like the the. leader of her click. Yeah. and she was. apparently a lot of fun and a good uh. mimic of her teachers. And uh she was. voted class cutup in her senior year.

graduating class. She went to an all. girls school in Prospect Heights and was. just by all accounts this vivacious, funloving, really sweet, sweet lady. Yeah. Or or girl at that point. Her uh. little brother Bill who ended up making. the or being featured in the documentary. The Witness Yeah. was just in love with. her. She was just amazing to him. They. had a very special relationship. Yeah. I. think she was about 13 years older than. him. Yeah. Quite a bit. Maybe 12 years. older. Um I had a sister like that and.

like there's a very special. relationship. There's none of that. sibling rivalry. Yeah. Um they're not. old enough to be your mother. It's just. a a a it's a unique situation to be a. younger sibling and to be able to. inherit like all that worldly wisdom. Yeah. And they're they're going through. all their own things and their own. struggles and their own travailes. But. to that 13-year-old younger brother, Yeah. they know everything and they're.

the coolest person walking the planet. and they're the kindest person walking. the planet because they've lived long. enough to like figure out some of the. major stuff, you know? Yeah. Even my own. sister is only six years older and we we. very much had and still have that. relationship where uh and she and my. brother are great now too, but you know, when you're two or three years apart, there can be a little bit of the. knocking of heads, but by the time I. came along, I was like, you know, my. sister was six. It was perfect. I was a. little baby doll for her, right? Um, so.

anyway, that was very much the. relationship that Kitty had with uh. Bill, and it seemed like one of the old. older brothers uh always had a little. bit of a like, yeah, she always liked. him better kind of attitude. Seemed. seemed like everybody kind of knew like. she liked Bill the most. Yeah. Which I. kind of felt bad for, but that's just. those family dynamics, man. You know, the thing is when whenever you do start. to kind of talk about somebody who's. died, especially someone who's died. violently and young, it's easy to um.

canonize them, you know, really put them. up on a pedestal and forget their flaws. And of course, I'm sure Kitty had tons. of flaws, but she didn't seem to have. any from from what I'm gathering that. were, you know, just terrible flaws or that. made her like a bad person. She seemed. like she was a Yeah. like a overall. above average great person. Yeah, agreed. So, um New York was getting uh. too dangerous for her family, they.

thought, to have all these kids. Uh so, they moved when she graduated high. school to New Cananan, Connecticut. And. she said, "You know what? I'm staying. here in New York. I'm 18 now. I love it. here." Um she got married for a brief. time uh to a guy, what was his name? Rocco. I don't remember his name. It's. either Rocky or Rocco. And um in the the. documentary, Bill tries to get in touch. with him. He's like, I really cuz he. found out she was gay and was like, you. know, we didn't even know this. I think. Rocco can help shed some light. And he.

very respectfully asked for his own. privacy. He said, "My relationship with. Kitty will remain forever a mystery.". Yeah. It's like that's an odd response. It was. I think he just didn't want to. I mean, if she was gay and they were. married for a short time, he either. didn't know and maybe felt the fool or. he did know and was maybe trying to do. right by her in some way. Sure. Uh. either way, he didn't want to talk about. it. Right. But um she uh worked as a.

secretary for a little while. She was a. waitress for a little while. Uh. eventually she was a barmaid, bartender, and then became bar manager at a place. in Hollis, Queens called Ev's 11th Hour. That is a great bar name. Well, and from. all accounts, it was one of those. wonderful neighborhood bars where opened. at 8 a.m. Yeah. Where the people were in. there getting sauced pretty early in the. day. Sure. And everyone knew everyone. and everyone loved Kitty and she helped.

take care of everybody, but was very. much an independent um kind of. firecracker of a woman. Sure. Drove a. red Fiat Mhm. convertible. Her dad used. to tease her about like when are you. going to find the right guy? She was. like, "I I make more money than any guy. I would go out with. I don't need that.". Which is, I guess, 1960s. for, "Dad, I'm gay." I'm gay. Yeah. And. I can't say it. But she did make pretty. good dough as the bar manager. Um, and. then in March 1963, she met a woman.

named Maryanne uh Zalco at Swing. Rendezvous. It was a underground lesbian. bar in the village. And they moved in. together shortly thereafter. Yeah. And. Kitty actually used to bring um Maryanne. home with her to visit, but her family. was all like, "Well, they're just good. friends and roommates, right? It's the. 60s, right? The early 60s." Yeah. And. there's an audio interview with her uh. in that documentary that's really. touching. Mhm. Uh she didn't want to be.

on camera, but um Bill was able to speak. to her. And uh I think what was so. compelling about this documentary was. that he was it was a search of a man. looking for closure. It it's a harrowing. sometimes almost unbearable to watch. Yeah. Search it tough. I mean like he's. at odds with his family here or there. um he uh he's just just doing things. where if you if you watch it in the. context of the documentary and you just.

follow along the documentary, it all. makes utter and complete sense, right? But then if you stop and remove yourself. long enough to be like, "This is a. documentary, which means this guy really. did this stuff." Yeah. And there was a. camera following him along while he was. doing it. I I was like, I I I couldn't. have done half of it. Oh, I know. you. know, he really. he just at one point he calls it an. obsession, but it's it's not he doesn't. come off as obsessed, right? Agreed. You. know, uh, all right, so let's detail the.

crime and then we will, uh, take a break. after that. How does that sound? Yeah. All right. So, flash forward to March. 13th, 1964. It's uh 3:15 in the morning. and Kitty Genevies is, as she often did, was making her way home from work late. at night as a bar manager. Yeah. And was. being trailed uh by a man, a man by the. name of Winston Mosley. Yes. Who is.

definitely the villain of this story, but is not the only one. It will turn. out, right? So, um, Kitty was, uh, 28. and at the time she was killed. And. Winston, her killer, was 29, just turned. 29, I think, like a week or so before. And I think you said this is March 13th. Yeah. 1964. Yeah. He was married with a. couple of kids. Yeah. His wife, Elizabeth, worked the night shift. She. was a hospital nurse. And, um, Winston's.

mother stayed at home with the kids. So, he basically said, "You know, I own my. own house. I've got a great job. operating computers. No one even knows. what I'm supposed to be doing with them. yet, but I'm making money doing it.". Yeah, he was a smart guy. So, I'm going. to indulge myself. I'm going to go out. and stalk women and murder them in my. spare time. That's what I'm going to do. So, that's what he was doing on this. night. He was cruising around looking. for a woman to um kill, basically. Yeah, that was his direct quote in. questioning. Yeah. I was looking for a.

woman to kill. Yeah. So he saw at I. believe a red light this little red Fiat. convertible caught his eye and there was. Kitty driving. So he started to follow. her and she parked and she parked in the. parking lot for the Long Island Railway, which uh the parking lot went back up to. the side of her apartment building, which is a two-story tutor job that had. shops in the bottom and apartments in.

the top. Right. Yeah. This was in Q. Gardens in Queens. So he followed her on. foot. Uh at this point, um she sees him. and knows that something is going on. He. has a knife in his hand, so she starts. uh running. He catches up to her by. outside of a bookstore and stabs her. twice in the back right off the bat with. this knife, right? and she had been. running um toward a bar that she thought.

would be open, but it turned out. apparently there was a new manager and. the new manager had closed down early. So when she stabbed twice in the back, it's on this darkened street. But right. across the street, Austin Street, is a. 10-story apartment building with dozens. of windows looking out onto Austin. Street. Yeah. Where she's being stabbed. in the back. And she screams, she cries. out. I think she said something like, "Oh, God, he stabbed me. Help me. Help. me." Is what they they they said. basically definitively is what she.

screamed. And people who were witnesses. to this recounted that. one guy said that he was I think a 10 or. 11 year old kid who was inside one of. the apartments in the Mobrey apartment. building and that he was awoken awakened. from a deep sleep. The scream was so. loud. He said it was the loudest thing. he's ever heard. Yeah. So she screams. and a man living in the Mobrey apartment. buildings opens his window. What's his.

name? Yeah. Robert Moser um opened his. window and screamed out, "Hey, get out. of there. What are you doing?" And uh. Mosley took off. Yeah. Took off running. away. He's very frequently misqued as. having said like, "Let that girl alone.". But even by his own words, in his own. testimony, he said, "Uh, hey, get out of. there." Yeah. At any rate, he scared him. away. Right. Uh, so. in between that time, uh, about 30.

minutes passes, Kitty, um, makes her way. around to the vestibule of her own. building, right? Yeah. and um goes inside the vestibule. and uh like you think the horror is over. for her. She could probably survive. these wounds, right? Um is in shock, I. would imagine. And then uh Mosley had. went to his car, kind of checked out the. building, saw that some lights had gone.

on and reasoned to himself, "No one's. going to do anything." puts on a. different hat and goes back, finds her. in the vestibule, and finishes the job. in the most horrific ways you can. imagine. Yeah. He uh he stabbed her at. least 12 more times. They think at least. she was stabbed at least 14 times. He. said he doesn't remember how many times. he stabbed her. Um but he basically kept. stabbing her until she stopped. screaming. Um she was still alive. I saw. that he attempted to rape her. I've also.

seen that he raped her. Yeah. I'm not. sure which one's correct. Yeah. But at. one point, and this is really important. here, as he's stabbing her and she's. screaming in the vestibule, there's a. staircase that leads directly up to a. door. And behind that door lived a man. named Carl Ross. And Carl Ross opened. his door and looked down one single. flight of stairs at Winston Mosley. stabbing um Kitty Genevese, who was. bloody. There was no confusing what was.

going on. and he closed the door and he. called his girlfriend and his girlfriend. said, "You don't get involved." Yeah, I'm worried for you. Just just leave it. alone. It's none of your business. And. he did. He didn't do anything at least. for a little while. All right. So, that's a good place to break here. And. uh we're going to come back and talk. about who saw and heard what and what. they did about it right after this. [Music].

stuff you should know. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. All right. So, at this point, um, Kitty. Genevies is, uh, not dead yet, but dying. in the vestibule. Um, a woman did come.

down and, uh, was with her. Her name is. Sophia Ferrar. She's still with us. And, um, she was a neighbor and friend of. Kitties. And so, she went down there. and, uh, apparently was with her as she. passed away, tried to calm her down. uh. evidently did calm her down and likes to. think that she at least saw a friendly. face and that she was being cared for as. she passed, right? Uh the weird thing is.

is that is not mentioned. I guess we got. to get into the New York Times now. Yeah. So, so after the murder, um like. the next day, the Times ran four. paragraphs on the Kitty Geneva's murder. It was not incredibly newsworthy at. first because that year there were 636. murders in New York City. Yeah. And that. was just one of them. Just one. But a. couple weeks later, um the head the city. editor of the New York Times, a guy.

named Abe Rosenthal, who's a legendary. journalist, was having lunch with, I. believe, the police commissioner of the. NYPD. And the commissioner said, "Did. you hear about that Genevese murder? That's one for the books. 38 people. standing around watched the whole thing. Nobody did a thing about it. Yeah. Now. you've got a story. A Rosenthal, legendary journalist, is like, "Uh, thank you for that. Uh, here's my Diner. Club card. I have to go now and get the. story done." So, he did. He assigned it.

out to a guy. What was the original. reporter's name? Um, his name was Martin. Gansberg. And they wrote on the front. page, I shouldn't say they wrote, it was. definitely all Gansburg, but he was. assigned and definitely under the. direction of Abe Rosenthal, like this is. this is the story. 38 people stood. around and did nothing. Yeah. The the. title of the article was 37, it was 37. at the time, 37 who saw murder, didn't. call the police. And basically the.

entire article and the entire narrative. from that moment forward for decades was. a not about this woman at all hardly, right? She became a symbol. B not. necessarily even about the crime but. about the crime of uh these people who. didn't the crime of apathy. Yeah. For. these 37 or 38 people. Uh but it was. very much misconstrued in the New York. Times to the point where in 2004.

they all but wrote a retraction uh with. new information. Um cuz the original. article they said like these people. witnessed it. That is not true. Um maybe. only a couple of people might have. actually seen anything with their. eyeballs. Uh the other 35 or 36 may have. heard someone screaming. Uh they might. have thought it was a drunken couple in. their neighborhood coming home from a. bar. Uh there might have been some.

apathy involved for sure for some of. them. But to characterize this as 37 or. 38 people witnessed this horrific crime. and literally shut their doors and. windows to it was not accurate at all. Right. They said um they said. specifically. well the way that they put it was that. there were. the way the story read was that 38. people had watched this murder which. took place. They misreported that there. were three attacks and that the man had.

been chased off twice and came back two. more times. Yeah. Um but that this whole. thing had taken place over 30 minutes. this long prolonged attack and that 38. people had just been sitting there. watching it doing nothing. And that is. definitely a mischaracterization of what. had happened. Like you're saying, for. the most part, people were earwitnesses, not eyewitnesses. There were certainly. not 38 eyewitnesses to it. And most. people weren't in a position to do much. if anything about it certainly.

physically. But I I don't know if you. could call it like a a a retraction. because the point that Abe Rosenthal he. never apologized for it ever. Even in. the documentary he's interviewed. Yeah. Um he and he's like I this is great. I'm. glad that it did what it did. Yeah. Sure. His the point is still there that. there was apathy in in that there were. two people who could have done something. and they didn't. But then.

from what the other witnesses said, the. scream was pretty clearly not a purse. snatching and not a a couple fighting. drunkenly, right? That it was a a a. violent crime being committed on this. woman and people still didn't do. anything. Yeah. They misreported um. possibly that uh no one called police. Apparently, perhaps up to three people. called the police. Uh although police. logs showed only one call came in. Um. and it may be a case of these people now.

telling themselves like I I called the. cops. I did something when they may not. have. Uh they did not report at all that. uh Ms. Ferrar had gone down to be with. her. She was not mentioned ever. Um, so. I kind of went from feeling like, yeah, you know, this bystander effect, it had. good, it led to the 911 being created. apparently in some ways and, uh, people. studied this in class and it raised. awareness. So, you know, if they. stretched it a little bit, then it had a. good effect. That's what Abe basically.

that was his position. That still is his. position. But, well, he's dead now. Oh, did he finally pass away? Yeah. Um, and. then I I finally came around and be. like, "No, you know, the truth is what. you should print." And if you're a. reporter and you run a story, right, you. should print the truth and not some. sensationalized version of it to sell. newspapers. No. No. Absolutely. I agree. with you. And I think the one thing that. you can hang on a Rosenthal is that um. that story was definitely fashioned in a.

manner to be as sensational as possible. to shock and outrage the public as much. as possible. But I still think it's rooted in the. basic fact that there was a. possibly allowed Winston Mosley to. finish the job. That Kitty Genevies. might have survived had somebody done. more than just sit up, look out the. window, and go back to bed. Yeah. Or not. even bother to look out the window. And.

like you said, Chuck, like this had a. lot of impact because this the story. comes out in 1964. and for 40 years, it wasn't until 2004. that the Times saw fit to like go back. and really reinvestigate. Yeah. And they. did. There was a a great um great. article called Kitty 40 years later, I. think. Um. and and the author goes through and. reinvestigates the case and really sets. a lot of facts straight. Um, but within. that 40-year period, the effects that this murder had were.

just sweeping. It led to the. establishment of 911. Yeah. It's a big. one. Sure. And it it created this whole. field of psychology that looks into the. the psychology of crowds, you know, and. why we would just stand around. What is. this diffusion of responsibility? None. of that understanding existed until the. Kitty Genevie's murder. Yeah. And. weirdly, why is someone why is a solo. witness more apt to act than a group of.

people? One thing I saw is that it's. called social influence and that we take. our cues from others. So, if inaction is. basically what is on the table, right? Then we're going to be inactive as well. If people are starting to move toward. it, toward the the problem, we'll. probably join in too. I could see that. or people thinking like either I'm not. someone else is better equipped to deal. with this than me or I feel like someone. else will do this, right? Uh so I don't.

have to. Yeah. A lot goes into play. It's pretty interesting. One of the the. less productive things that came out of. it though is this idea that when you. live in a city in a big city, you put. enough people together, everybody stops. caring about anybody else. They're all. out for number one. Yeah. And Q Gardens. became the the center of this or just. such a a a symbolic example of of urban. care uncaring I guess. Yeah. And Kitty. Jonav became a symbol of of that as well.

and and the the need to do something to. to act out um to help other people when. you see them need help. All right. So, let's take another quick break here and. we're we're going to get back into what. happened to uh Mr. Mosley and the. further effects of this crime after. this. You should know.

[Music]. [Music]. So, a week after this murder, uh Mosley. was breaking into a house. He's not a. good guy. No, he was a terrible guy. He. was um beyond being a sociopath and a. psychotic was uh just a burglar. And he.

would he was just straight up robbing a. house one day of a television. And uh. one of the neighbors saw this, called. the cops. Cops came and arrested him. No, no, no, no. That's not true. What? The neighbor, Here's the thing. This is. the great ironic twist of the Kitty. Genevie story. He went to a different. neighborhood. He was robbing a house and. the neighbor said, "Hey, what are you. doing?" And he started to run from the. house. The neighbor chased him and. tackled him and held him until the cops. came. Oh, well, yeah. He called. That's. how he went down. Intervention. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Not apathy. Intervention. a. week later. Yes. Okay. So, at any rate, he calls the cops, he gets arrested, and. very like uh matterof factly says that. he killed Kitty Genevies and not only. that, but he killed uh supposedly two. other women. Uh a woman named Barbara. Kaik uh actually she was a girl. She's. only 15. And then a woman named Annie. May Johnson. And apparently both of them. had been sexually assaulted. And he was.

never tried for those. But um he did. plead not guilty by reason of insanity. which did not work. Was sentenced to. death and by luck of timing was able to. appeal uh and the death penalty had gone. away for most crimes. Yeah. In that uh. time period and he um was reentenced to. life in prison. Yeah. Supposedly the. prosecution had withheld some evidence. about his mental state during his. sentencing so he was able to get it. reduced. So he was hanging out doing his.

time um and he was in Attica I believe. and he had injured himself and was being. taken to the hospital and on the way way. there he got uh the gun away from the. guard who was escorting him and took off. and for I think five days he basically. just the city of Buffalo was in mortal. fear of the fact that the guy who. murdered Kitty Genevies was now on the.

loose. in their town and they were. afraid, rightfully so. He raped one. woman when the cops closed in on him. He. uh got a hold of five people and held. him hostage in a standoff that lasted. for a little while with the FBI before. they finally got to him. Um he was a bad. dude. So they sent him back to prison. and uh they said, "You're not getting. out of here ever." Yeah. He was later a. part of the Attica prison riots as well. And um the the one lady that he killed, he he.

burned her alive. Like the family was. upstairs. Yeah. And he broke into her. house, uh raped her, killed her, and. burned her alive in the home and the. house went up in flames. Right. So it it. sounded like he had no he sounded like a. true sociopath. Like he had no um not. that there was ever a reason for killing. someone, but it was always just at. random because he wanted to do that. That's a lot what it sounds like. It was. a self-indulgence. So, in the documentary, um, very.

powerful scene where the son of I'm. sorry, the little brother of Kitty, who. it's told through his eyes, interviews. and sits down with one of the sons of. Mosley. And it's just like, I mean, you. cut the tension with a knife, obviously. It's just so like fraught with tension. and um he had told his son that she was. yelling racial slurs at him. He also.

said that he was just a getaway driver. um for some mobster and the Genevese. family was related to the crime mob. family, the Genevese family. And none of. this stuff is true. And uh the the. brother was just like, "A, no, we're not. related to that family at all. We have. nothing to do with that." Right? and he. just gives him a look when he talks. about the racial slurs like, "Come on, man. That's not what happened." So, it. was really, really powerful scene of uh. these two guys kind of working it out in.

a way. I didn't see them working. anything out. Oh, see I did. Which made. it even worse for me. I thought there. was some between them. They kind of came. to a nice nicer place. Oh, really? Than. where they'd started. I did not catch. that at all. Oh, maybe you skipped. forward or something. Maybe. Uh I was like I can't take this. Gotta. fast forward. Well, the son was saying. like, you know, I think it, you know, we. need we need to move. No, the son of. Winston Mosley got was saying that they. needed to move on from all this. And.

then the brother was saying, I. definitely don't you know, the sins of. the father aren't the sins of the sons. Yeah, he said that. So, um you know, I. felt I felt like they were better off. than when they started for having that. conversation. I honestly did not catch. that. Yeah. Well, regardless, um Winston. Mosley after. I guess after his second his first. escape, his second little crime spree in. Buffalo, um he uh when he was captured, he he apparently reformed himself or he.

claimed to be reformed. He got a a. degree in prison. Um he wrote an. editorial that the New York Times. published where he basically said, "I'm. a changed man." Yeah. And everybody. said, "Oh, look at that. It's just about. the time your first parole hearing's. coming up. This is great timing." Uh he. went up before the parole board and they. said no. Yeah. Uh he went up before the. parole board again. They said no. He. went up 18 times. Uh when 18 times the. parole board said no. Yeah. I think the. last one was just a couple years before.

he died, but he died in 2016 at age 81. in prison. Yeah. And he uh the brother. tried to get an interview with him and. he said uh no that he didn't want to be. exploited anymore. Mhm. And you could. just feel this brother's pain of like. really wanting to try to talk him into. it again. Um and the basically the. people that that were the go-between. were like, "Yeah, you know, you can try. We can't keep you, but uh he's not going. to change his mind." Right. So, he never.

got that interview. Uh but I feel like. he got I don't think he was looking for. answers. I mean, in the documentary, he. went back to many of these apartment. windows just to look at what their. vantage point might have been. He got an. actress to uh recreate um what the. screaming would have sounded like uh. from down there on the street, which was. very chilling uh scene. And I don't know. that he was looking for, like you said, he was at odds with his family at times. You could tell the one little brother. was like, "Man, this is hard on all of.

us. Like, you need to stop." Right. Um, but I don't think he was necessarily. looking for the closure in that I want. to find out for sure if these people. could have stopped it. I think the. closure comes more in the journey of. learning about his sister and learning. as much as he can about this case. Right. It's really interesting. It was. very interesting. Um, that 2004 Times article and then now. this this documentary has definitely. exonerated Q Gardens as a whole. They've.

said, "No, there's there's way more. nuance to this. There's way more." Yeah. Um but two things, two people that have. um not been exonerated are a guy named. Joseph Frink and a guy named Carl Ross. Carl Ross was the guy who lived at the. top of the vestibule who opened his. door. Yeah. The ironic thing about Carl. Ross is if you notice, it says 38. witnesses, 37 did nothing. the 30 that. that that last 38th witness that the.

Times is referring to was Carl Ross. They said he's the one who called the. police. Well, he called the police like. long after Kitty Genevese was dead. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, he was actually. he was actually I don't want to say. celebrated or whatever, but he was. exonerated initially by this Times. article when it turns out that he was. one of the two people who could have. done something and didn't. The other one. was Joseph Frink who saw the initial. attack from his vantage point in the. elevator. He ran the elevator in the. Mobrey apartments across the street and. he um apparently saw what was happening.

and left his his elevator and went to. bed. Yeah, that was that. But again, it. seems like the overall feeling is okay, other than those two guys, everybody. else is fine. I just disagree with that. I think that there's a lot more that. people could have done that didn't. And. I don't think it's uh I just don't think. that everybody's off the hook for that. Yeah. Yep. You got anything else? No, man. Uh if you want to know more.

about Kitty Genevese, just search the. internet. There's a lot about her. But. be careful what you read because it's. all over the place, frankly. Uh and. since I said internet, it's time for. listener mail. [Music]. Uh, fish fraud follow-up. Hey guys, I. recently began uh began a job as a. marine fisheries observer. Nice. For the. department of fish and game in the. Bearing Sea and uh just listen to your. fish fraud episode. Uh each season a.

percentage of vessels fish uh fishing. here at least are randomly selected to. have an observer on board to monitor the. operations and buy catch that come up in. their pots or nets. Uh, the presence of. an observer is admittedly a bit of a. drag for this fisherman who have to put. up with us skinny nerds. Lol. He typed that. Uh, we are generally a. great deterrent of any mischief at sea, but uh, from what I have seen, most of. the fishermen are real sharp, honest. folks who know what they're doing. Uh,

of course, this is only a small portion. of all the vessels on the water and it. isn't going to solve that problem by any. means, but thought you'd like to know. that there is some coverage on fish uh. fishing vessels and processors. Thanks. for all the laughs, my dudes. That is. from Kevin uh Alexanderitz. in Olympia, Washington. Thanks a lot, Kevin. Had no idea. Did you that these. people did that? that there's basically. like a a sky marshall program fighting.

fish fraud on the high seas. Yeah, we. talked about that. We did. Yeah, I don't. remember that. Yeah, we were just like. it's just so infrequent and random that. you know what's what good is it doing? And sounds like he agrees in some ways, I guess. So, but still have fun out. there on the high seas. Don't get. seasick. Uh if you want to get in touch. with us like Kevin did, you can send us. an email to Stuff Podcast at. houseuffworks.com. And as always, join. us at our home on the web, stuff you. should know.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].