Selects: The Cleveland Torso Murders | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hey everybody it's me Josh and for this. week's select I've chosen our Cleveland. torso murders episode from May 2021 once. in a while we do some true crime. episodes and in my opinion this might be. our best one ever it's a semil little. known series of gruesome killings that. became an engrossing story with a lot to. keep up with I should probably mention. there's a lot of Frank talk about some. really Grizzly stuff in here so be. forewarned hope you enjoy it as much as. one can enjoy this kind.

stuff welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh there's Chuck Jerry's out there. somewhere with a magnifying glass and a. toothpick we don't know what the. toothpicks for but this is stuff you. should know yes content warning episode.

everybody this is uh one of our I was. about to say rare they're they're fairly. rare but one of our true crime episodes. that is very Grizzly gruesome gruesome. but took place in the 1930s so there's. something about old and gruesome that. makes it a little more palatable for me. totally I don't know why but you're. absolutely right time I guess you know. yeah Time Heals all wounds including the. Torso murders yes it does well heals all.

wounds except for some of the things. that happened in the Torso murders. because you can't come back from that. it's pretty crazy you you you were. familiar with the Torso murders already. right I had heard of these and the more. I read about them the more I was shocked. that there wasn't a good uh period movie. about this yeah absolutely so but if you. haven't heard of the Torso killer that's. fine you're you're definitely not alone. a lot of people haven't which is kind of. surprising because these are they are. unsolved murders there were a lot of. them and and you know they took place in.

the background of a city that was like. driven into a frenzy by this Gastly. serial murderer who was who continued. their murders despite this ex. extraordinarily large you know Manhunt. to try to find him an unsuccessful. Manhunt still to this day yeah I mean it. has all the makings of a good movie um. it's got a and we'll will'll reveal who. this person is we'll hang on to it for a. second but it's got a a famous. investigator.

oh oh sorry yes he definitely was the. famous investigator yeah oh you thought. I meant who the murderer was yeah yeah. yeah yeah you've got some false starts. you've got some um Cohen Brothers esque. Whimsy with with the dog uh Discovery I. thought you'd like that yeah I did like. that and um yeah it has all the makings. of a great movie and a cool period. setting which was Depression era 1930s. Cleveland Ohio which is almost. indistinguishable from Curr current Day.

2021 Cleveland Ohio oh come on we love. hey man I'm from Toledo I can totally. bag on Cleveland and Detroit I was. that's my Birthright that is your. Birthright um so let's go back to. September of. 1934 when a woman's torso is washed up. on the shore of Lake Erie uh her legs. are amputated below the knee there is no. head uh which is why I said torso and. arms it's a suspicious way to find a. body a very suspicious way uh she was.

never identified they called her the. Lady of the Lake and this was just sort. of the beginnings nothing was put. together at this point because it would. be 2 years before any other murders took. place and that they finally sort of put. together that the Lady of the Lake was. perhaps victim zero uh really victim one. but they called her victim zero of who. had become known as the Torso murderer. or the uh the Mad Butcher of. Kingsbury yes um Kingsbury run and like.

you said it'd be about two years before. they started to connect the dots but in. that time between the time the Lady of. the Lake uh was found um about a year. passed and then all of a sudden two more. bodies were found and all of a sudden. because two bodies were found together. this really started to capture people's. attention the Lady of the Lake it was a. weird thing it was a terrible thing to. find but it was singular this was you. know like by definition not singular.

finding two bodies at once that were. both dismembered um and they were found. uh in that area of kingsberry run which. is the where the Mad Butcher take takes. his name that's right um they were both. men in this case they were uh they were. castrated they were also. decapitated uh which would become sort. of a signature the decapitation and and. or any kind of dismembering really would. become the signature Hallmark of this. murderer uh it's interesting in that.

victim one of these two men was actually. one of the only ones that they got a. fairly positive ID for um they actually. got some fingerprints and it matched a. man named Edward uh. andressi and he was sort of a petty. Thief that would had you know the police. had brought in before so he was believed. to be gay and this if he was you know. which all accounts uh say that he was. this was at a time when in the 1930s. certainly uh it was still a.

and it was also listed as a mental. disorder in the uh what's it called not. the DMV DSM. DSM the DMV the DMV didn't look too. highly on it either no that's right so. he I think was one of only two that was. ever even positively identified of what. would end up. being probably 13 maybe 12 murders yes. um and again these guys were found. together not together like they were.

like within you know a a very short. distance of one another so that they. were found virtually at the same time. and whenever you find you know a body. missing its head that that is attention. grabbing and when you find two bodies. both missing their heads that really. starts to get the presses juices running. um and like we said these were found. around Kingsbury run and Kingsbury run. is basically like an old riverbed that. cuts through um I believe the west side. of Cleveland uh no I'm sorry the I think.

the east side of Cleveland down to the. kyoga river and it was basically like. the place where all of the oil companies. and all of the uh heavy industry along. the river and along the lake would dump. all of their waste the city put a sewer. in there it was just meant to be kind of. like a A Wasteland like a literal. Wasteland um. and it kind of stayed that way until the. Depression hit and by the time the. Depression hit things were so bad that.

people were looking to to basically live. wherever they could for free and they. started taking up residence in Kingsbury. run so by the time the Kingsbury run. murders the Tor the Torso murders. started um this was like a full-fledged. full swing Shanty Town basically a Great. Depression era Hoover town is what they. called them yeah exactly um so it was a. grim scene down there anyway uh. certainly the fringes of society um. during the in course of the. investigation there were accusations of.

the press that they weren't working as. hard as they needed to because these. were people on the fringes of society. and sort of forgotten about and uh I. think one of the other people. identified was a few months later in. January. 1936 uh when they found the body of uh. Flo pillo Florence pillo was a waitress. and bartender and a sex worker who was. discovered once again dismembered. wrapped in newspaper and a couple of. bush baskets and then about a week and a.

half later found other parts of her body. so she was sort of found in in it's very. Grizzly but found in pieces over the. course of a week and a half in different. places right so so far as far as anybody. can tell we up to three and possibly. four victims if you include the Lady of. the Lake but it wasn't until the. following June about 6 months after Flo. palillo was um discovered because again. remember these people were they actually. lived On The Fringe of society so just.

like today just like Robert Pickton the. the pig farmer from Vancouver and so. many other serial killers um find their. victims um in like the just I guess the. lowest stations of society because. they're the most vulnerable they have. the least protection and that's kind of. what was going on that's why it took so. many uh victims for the press to finally. be like okay there's something really. going on here and finally in June I. believe of. 1936 victim number four. uh as far as canonical victims go but.

possibly the fifth victim was discovered. um his head was found first by two boys. who are playing hookie and fishing along. the kooga can you imagine that man no I. can't because they found like a bald up. pair of trousers and uh I guess grabbed. them and found that there was something. in it and when they opened it up it was. the the head of a man in his 20s he. never been identified like so many of. these victims yeah and not to uh. trivialize any of this but again that.

stuff is very ripe for for movie making. totally this whole thing is and it. really is surprising that no one's done. this yet like you wouldn't you know you. would write something like that in a. screenplay and this actually happened. it's so there's I I didn't see I haven't. read it but there's a graphic novel and. maybe it's a series called torso that is. um about all this and I'm guessing that. would probably be a pretty good basis. for the movie yeah so victim 4 uh they. were making great efforts to find out.

who this man was so they actually um the. police circulated a photo uh of his face. and made a death mask if you can don't. know what a death mask is I encourage. you to go listen to our episode on Death. Masks nice it's basically uh what you. would think it's a it's a recreation of. this man's head and they put this thing. uh along with a tattoo map he had. tattoos all over himself M um an. illustrated map of his tattoos in this. death mask on display at the Great Lakes. exposition of.

1936 where you know a 100,000 people. could walk I mean it was a smart idea in. one way because sure they had a you know. could blast it out in the best way. possible to try and identify who this. person was but it was also again like. something from a movie these people. going to an exposition all of a sudden. are walking by these this uh tattoo map. and the death mask of this man uh and. I'm sure the question came up like well. why is. it 's the rest of his body why didn't.

they just show pictures of the tattoos. they're like stop asking questions do. you know the guy or not no go get some. ice cream exactly Move Along nothing to. see here but yeah despite that you know. very public um search for an. identification he was never still has. never been identified and his tattoos. were really he had people's names. tattooed on him he had a cartoon. character named jigs tattooed on him so. this guy you know you could see his face. they had all his tattoos and he still. has never been identified but his his.

Discovery and I think the very public. like the the cop circulated a photo of. his head on a gurnie in the morg uh at. first before they made the death mask. among other um uh uh police agencies. around the area and I'm sure to the. press as well um so it was kind of. public even though it was kind of quiet. but it got the press's attention and the. Press started to connect the dots and. all of a sudden we now were connecting. the Lady of the Lake to this latest guy. and all of the other ones as well and it.

became very clear that there was uh what. they call the Mad Butcher uh of. Kingsbury run on the loose um in. Cleveland and no one had any idea who it. was or when or if they were ever going. to stop yeah I think there were seven. more victims over the next two. years uh victim eight were skeletal. remains uh but they did think they. identified this person as Rose Wallace. uh woman in her 40s uh she had gone.

missing about a year earlier and there. was quick lime use to decompose this. body uh and this one interestingly had. evidence of a more of a clumsy. dismemberment um to me this one stands. out a little bit as one that possibly. might not be a victim and could have. been. misattributed uh to the to the Mad. Butcher that's just my personal feeling. I I don't know if anyone else is saying. this but it's the one that stands out to. me as being slightly different same as. same same to me yeah she uh the the.

killer clearly lacked a dismemberment. plan in that case is that a ban. yeah are they good yeah they were really. good they were uh maybe math Rock okay. dismember I think they were nice work at. the very least they were alternative uh. victim nine was uh had his heart. removed um victim 10 had morphine in her. system and I think they're they're not.

quite sure how they all died I think at. one point they thought most of them died. by the decapitation but some were found. with uh their blood completely drained. from their body like I said this one. woman had morphine inner system yeah uh. which could make sense we'll get to. something else later on of a potential. victim that never happened where drugs. might have been a factor but um you know. it's it's sort of all you know there. were men there were women there were. black people there were people there. wasn't any real Rhyme or Reason it.

seemed like aside from the fact that. they were probably called from this area. of Ohio yes uh and the fact that you. know the first two men were. emasculated um that there were women. involved too that somebody's heart have. been ripped out like there was there was. clearly a sexual element to the whole. thing which made the idea that they were. men and women victims um very. confounding you just don't normally see. that in a sex killer you you see one or. the other and it's usually the sex that.

the person is oriented to um or the. victims and then you know just to kind. of to to cap that point off the killer. left victims 11 and 12 within a few. yards of one another um on a dump uh. like a trash dump and one was a woman. victim 11 was a woman and victim 12 was. a man should we take a break we should. because Cleveland doesn't know it at the. time but those of us looking through uh. The Looking Backward through history can.

tell you that this was the last. canonical victims in August of 1938 so. the killer as far as anybody knows is. done that's right and most of the. grizzly stuff is out of the way and. we'll be back to reveal the famous. investigator right after this. [Music].

how's that for a tease it was I can't. take it anymore Chuck please please who. is it it's my favorite thing when you. play koyi uh it was Mr Elliot NES uh. very famous for being the head of the un. touchables mhm uh for putting uh Al.

Capone Behind Bars good friend of Sean. Connor's very good friend oh that was. great that wasn't very good cuz to do. don't bring a knife to a gunfight you. bring a gun you dummy yeah I think that. was the line if you go on to do Conor. well you got to have an HH in there. right but there was no I did that didn't. I I thought that was I thought I nailed. it there aren't no s's in that. sentence right they're implied that I.

would have done that had there been s's. don't bring a knife to a gun dunch how's. that right you bring a gun you. dummer all right back to the serious. stuff uh Elliot Ness was the uh after. that work in what was that Chicago I. think oh yeah uh that was he became the. alcohol uh investigator in charge of the. alcohol tax unit for Northern Ohio in. August of 34 and then the Republican. morroll candidate uh Harold Burton who.

had go on to win said you know what NES. you're a famous guy uh I like the cut of. your jib um let me make you in December. 1935 the safety director for Cleveland. and let me nudge you towards this. outstanding case that we. have so yeah when he was hired the the. case wasn't quite clear that it was a. big old case he came in just after like. a couple of months after victim one and. two were found and just a couple of.

weeks before Flo uh poo was found so it. wasn't evident that that there was a. Serial murderer on the loose um but that. also means that Elliot NES came in right. at the beginning of this thing so he was. the public safety director for it he. became the face of the frustrated police. effort to capture the Torso killer right. although the lead investigator uh what. was that guy's name uh Peter Murillo. yeah he was uh he.

was I don't know about obsessed but it. it became sort of his main focus of work. was to tirelessly find out who this. murderer was and I assume that it's. weird because I really don't know what a. safety director was I don't think is. that even still a. thing uh yeah I think there is a public. safety director position still there. they basically are in charge of the. police department the fire department. basically all that stuff the head of. that they're like the probably the.

liaison between the mayor and those. services but not the uh Guardian Angels. CU they do what they want to do hey man. they're staying on their own too uh the. coroner AJ Pierce of the case uh I think. he was the first coroner on the first. case said you know what we need to do we. need to get together we need to have a. little Summit and start sharing. information I'm going to call it the. Torso Clinic which was interesting I. don't know if he did or the Press did. yeah either way cuz the Press was very. much involved in this whole. obviously but uh at this conference is.

where he first put forward a profile. which was this is someone who would not. stand out in Kingsbury one uh run. someone who knew the area could blend in. uh somebody you know we think it's a man. who is a powerful man because they need. to be able to you know it takes a lot of. work to dismember a body and to haul. these bodies around and drop them off in. different places MH and we think he also. might have some anatomical knowledge not.

saying that he's necessarily a doctor or. a surgeon uh kind of like the Jack the. Ripper thing but but this this person. clearly clearly knows their way around. uh a knife and a scalpel yeah because I. mean if you really closely examine a. body and like look at the places where. you know the body was separated with the. knife you can find hesitancy marks you. can find the hacking um there's all. sorts of Clues and telltale signs and. apparently this guy had a lot of. confidence. and had a lot of skill or knowledge.

about Anatomy so like you said maybe not. a doctor but at the very least a very. skilled butcher who had studied human. anatomy um before but I eventually they. finally were like this is probably some. sort of doctor yeah and I think they. eventually learned that most of the. victims died within a few d a few days. of being discovered and most were moved. except for victim 5 where they found a. blood bath you know that was this didn't. happen at the other crime scenes it was.

virtually no blood to be found and in. fact I think one was completely drained. of blood many were oh really so that I. mean that takes I don't know if that. happened naturally just because of the. the nature of of dismemberment or if it. was a purposeful thing but only one body. was found kind of clearly murdered there. right so um yeah I think the the fact. that the blood wasn't on the scene and. it wasn't in the body any long longer. means that it had to go somewhere so.

that the fact that they were dismembered. um and the the and packaged I mean like. a lot of them were found you know um the. one ident unidentified tattooed man his. head was wrapped in trousers but other. people's were wrapped in newspaper or. brown paper like they were meat um some. one was was put in a a makeshift box um. there was there was a lot of time. dedicated to the the um this mment of. these bodies and that that that leaves a.

lot of evidence and you need a place. where you're not going to be interrupted. and that's not easy to come by so that. became a really like big point is you. know we we're pretty sure that this. person is is snatching victims from the. uh from the Kingsbury run area um but. where are they committing these acts and. they tried to find that place as much as. they tried to find the killer yeah I. mean that would be a big clue if they. had some murder room uh Dexter style.

sure which that's a dead giveaway every. time uh that's coming back by the way I. don't know if you ever watched. Dexter what do you mean it's coming back. they're bringing Dexter back man with. the original like Michael C Hall uhhuh. no yes they are indeed and I I have. mixed feelings because we love that show. for a long time but it is end it is one. of the shark jumpier shows of all time. it's it's like the shark itself jumped a. shark I think so it's insane it's. amazing I mean I love Michael seal.

though we we're just now finishing six. feet under again so I'm always happy to. see him again but uh I'll give it a you. see cold in. July um no what is that it's it's a. little bit like a Straw Dogs type story. um but it's he's like having to battle. Don Johnson it's just really like if you. want I know it's weird casting but if. you want to just experience like a. constant you know mid to lowlevel dread. for 2 hours like just go ahead and watch.

that it's well done in that respect or. watch the. lighthouse it's probably better God it's. so good let's just stop talking about. this and talk about the Lighthouse for. the rest of the time uh all right so uh. Peter Murillo who like we said was a. lead detective he's sort of obsessed. with this thing he starts not only. focusing on uh this land down by the. river uh but oh I didn't mean that but. that's what it was uh but he started. focusing on the rail roads and the these.

these hobos what the railroads oh okay. you know where trains run on sure yeah I. just never heard it pronounced the way. you did the first railroad the. railroads it was hilarious I got to. lighten this up somehow we're talking. about dismembered torso I know exactly. um so he started looking in these box. cars and I don't I mean is hobo a an. offensive word can you still say that I. don't think so I think it's a point of. pride a term of pride. of for people who still ride the rails.

mhm okay um so he's still out there. doing his thing uh at this press. conference um Elliot NES ends up holding. a meeting with the head of scientific. investigation Bureau his name was David. cowls uh and an editor of the Cleveland. press um so this is a big deal they're. actually getting the Press involved at. this point right but secretly this. wasn't a press conference this is like a. secret meeting oh no no not a press. conference at all this was very much in. secret but he's involving the press and.

they said here's what we're going to do. nees says let's you go and pick out. eight tough guys that can go undercover. that that know a lot of bad guys in. Cleveland and have all those connections. we'll give them the police support they. need and we'll fund them uh how did they. fund them with OP press's money what. does that even mean I don't I think that. like maybe um the owners of the. newspapers chipped in like the wealthy. owners chipped in quietly toay off the. books that's my impression of what this.

and who ever chipped in the most got to. break the story I wonder but well no I. think at the same time it was a. technique for bringing the Press into. the fold so that there weren't Outsiders. drumming up trouble for the cops anymore. because the Cleveland press really made. the the they didn't make the police look. bad they pointed out just how badly the. police were handling this or. ineffectively which is not to say that. the police were were um not trying. really really hard to POS ly I saw a. figure of 10,000 suspects were.

interviewed over four years during the. course of this investigation they just. couldn't find the guy they could not. find this killer and the Press kind of. almost gleefully kept pointing that out. right so this is in in a way attempt to. assuage them and bring them into the. Inner Circle a. bit right that's that was my impression. yeah all right so the police are uh. they've got these undercover guys. working their their scene they're. checking cars randomly at all hours. they're canvasing uh laundromats and.

places where you wash your clothes so. you know if there are people like trying. to get blood stains out of something. they're kind of doing everything they. can at this point uh and this is where. the Cohen Brothers sort of uh moment. comes in which is uh in Sandy a dog and. Sandusky is about now it's about an hour. or 10 minutes away by car I don't know. what it would have been back then but. probably less than two hours I would say. mhm even in an old timey car uh a dog. shows up in sand dusy with a human leg. in its.

mouth I want to say that literally. happened in a Cohen Brothers movie it. might have just been a bone of a. body but I can't think of which one it. might be someone will someone will write. in and tell us but it sounds like a. Barton Fink kind of thing it is but it's. not so or I might be thinking of the. kids who ripped the toue off the guy in. uh Miller's. Crossing in the I don't remember that. part although I remember uh one of the. neighbors lost his Tay in the bird and. they thought it it was evidence of was.

murder there's definitely a movie it. might not have been con Brothers where a. dog shows up with a body part in its. mouth probably more than one movie but. this dog shows up in its mouth and uh. Morel goes to Sandusky and it turns out. that the leg was actually surgically. removed during a uh during a real. surgery not a not a serial killer. surgery mhm and just didn't get disposed. of right ended up in the lake ended up. in the dog's mouth right but the police. were so hyped up. at the time they Trav SES to chase down.

this lead which like all the other ones. went absolutely nowhere um and so there. was uh there was again like just a. tremendous amount of public pressure. including something you mentioned. earlier too a lot of allegations and. accusations that the police weren't. doing enough because these people were. not wealthy were not well thought of. they were you know very poor the poorest. of the poor during the Great Depression. were the ones who were having who are. suffering this this serial killer um and.

so there was a tremendous amount of of. pressure um and I think my impression is. is that that pressure um is one of the I. guess the thing that drove Elliot Ness. to um to do something really terrible. because the the the killer was picking. from The Shanty towns of Kingsbury run. Elliot NES got it in his head that if. you did away with Kingsbury run you do. away with the killings yeah and so he. raided the the homeless camps at at.

Kingsbury run and roused everybody and. then ordered the place burned to the. ground yeah and I'm sure he thought this. was a great idea at the time but he. really didn't think it through because. the people of Cleveland did not take. kindly to that um they they hated him. for what he did and this was during the. Depression and everyone was struggling. basically or not everyone but most. people were struggling at this point. unemployment rate of 20% in Cleveland. and so the idea of this big shot Chicago.

uh Gman coming in and and basically. running these homeless people out of. their only option and burning It To The. Ground was not a good look at all uh. however it that there were no more. murders after that I know strangely it. seemed to have worked and it depends. we'll talk more about you know a lot of. different views of whether the murder. stopped or not but as far as canonical. victims go yeah this this he burned the.

place to the ground two days after. victims 11 and 12 were found and after. that there were no more victims so it. didn't solve the murders by any stretch. of the imagination but it seemed to have. put an end to him weirdly yeah I think. before we take a break we should mention. there was one and get into the the who. we think is probably the real suspect. there was one suspect in kyoga County uh. that the sheriff brought in name he was. a brick layer named Frank DOL Zeal who. did confess uh he was brought in for the.

murder of Flo pillo originally uh cuz. he' lived with her for a little while. but supposedly he knew Rose Wallace and. Edward Andy as well but then they looked. into it and it by all accounts that. confession was. um not just induced but in the days. where you would literally beat a victim. into confessing yeah and um then murder. him in his cell after he recanted his. confession so was he murdered yeah well.

he he hung himself but he hung himself. from a hook that was shorter than he was. I mean I guess if you really really want. to die you might you you could do that. you could overcome the um the um the. urge to stand up disinclination towards. self harm I guess you'd put it yeah but. uh his his friends at the time seemed to. be like no he was murdered so it it's at. the very least his confession was beaten. out of him and no no serious ER of the. crime believes that um Frank doil was.

was the killer he didn't have any there. was no evidence whatsoever of any kind. of surgical knowledge there was like a. lot of boxes he just didn't check it was. basically uh he knew Flo and he may have. known Edward andrai and he may have. known Rose Wallace and the sheriff. basically ran him in very publicly right. all right so let's take that break and. then we'll come back and talk a little. bit more about the. investigation and who people now believe. committed these horrible murders right.

after this. [Music].

all right so Elliot Nest has run. everyone out of the kingsberry Run camps. did not go over well he then says here's. what we'll do let's skirt the uh warrant. uh rules so we don't have to require. warrants and let's get together since. I'm the safety director and I control. the fire department too let's get let's. go around and start searching for quote. fire code violations end quote MH. basically so they don't have to get any. kind of warrants and they can just.

basically go into people's houses and. and just at will and search and do. whatever they want to under the guise of. searching for fire code violations he. was desperate he was very desperate and. again they were looking not just for the. killer but really more than anything. they were looking for that Grizzly. Workshop as the Cleveland plane dealer. had put it a place where he was you know. draining the victims of their blood and. dismembering their bodies they didn't. turn anything up but it really kind of. goes to show like just what links Elliot.

NES who was considered like this squeaky. clean law man was willing to go to this. is. extraordinarily um. unconstitutional and underhanded and he. he went he went to that that degree and. well beyond it turned out actually too. very much uh and I think we're at the. point now where we can talk about this. mystery person right yeah this is this. is why I he went Way Beyond you know um.

unlawful search of homes he actually. engaged in what amounts to kidnapping of. a private citizen who he thought was the. killer yeah and he kept it very secret. uh he even used a pseudonym for this. person he called this person uh this. gentleman Gaylord. sundheim pretty good name a good hotel. check-in name yeah uh and privately he. you know word gets around a little bit. what's going on but privately he would. describe this person as an alcoholic uh. May. bisexual uh a doctor uh who came from a.

wealthy family and who had a relative in. Congress who was protecting this person. yes and took this man under the dark of. night to a hotel room in Cleveland held. there without charging him for two weeks. where they interrogated this person yes. and apparently the guy uh who this. Gaylord sonheim uh was in the middle of. a bender when he was picked up and uh he. had. um he was so profoundly drunk that it.

took him 3 days to become sober again I. don't buy that I know but when he when. he did I know but you got to add those. too sure um thank you for keeping it. keeping it even ke though I mean I've. had nights they were a little rough and. you're always okay the next. day I I don't know what you're talking. about it's so weird like alcohol affects. us so differently man I can have like a. drink and a half these days and I'm like. hating life the next day no no I'm not.

talking about a hangover but you're not. still drunk the next day oh gotta or in. two days or three days I think that's. what they were saying is that this guy. was he had like a a hangover stoer. basically that could bu that that was my. impression all right not that he was. still just flying high but that he was. hating it all right I should just shut. up about the whole thing but regardless. they kept him whether he was sober as a. judge or you know drunk as a skunk when. they picked him up they held him in this. hotel room without charge and outside of.

the legal system for 2 weeks and. interrogated him for up to 8 hours a day. yeah but I think he did it so who cares. that's exactly how Elliot NES was. approaching this and again everybody. thought he was this squeaky clean law. man and he's engaged in kidnapping but. the thing is he brought in the guy who. was one of the early inventors of the. polygraph he invented the Keeler. polygraph and it was called that because. his name was Leonard Keeler and he I. think he brought him from Chicago and. Leonard Keeler administered a couple of.

different polygraph tests to this. Gaylord sonheim and said if this isn't. your man I might as well throw my. machine out the window if I say anything. else because that guy that's the guy. it's definitely the guy you got to take. that with a grain of salt because. especially today polygraphs are just. total junk science but it certainly um. confirmed nessa's suspicions that much. more at the time I think that that. polygraph back then was there wasn't. even machine Keeler would just sit there.

and look for a beat of sweat to break. out on the forehead then punch the guy. if it did that's right exactly so uh the. case was never solved um ness's. reputation obviously took a big hit he. eventually got out of Cleveland after a. drunk driving hit and run accident that. he was involved with and tried to cover. up so he left in great shame uh but back. to this Gaylord. suntime later on uh many years later. there were crime invest instigators and. writers who put two and two together and.

basically identified and in fact in one. case uh crime writer Marilyn. barsley uh came out and said yeah this. this is who this person was it was a. former World War I Army medic who was. discharged for mental instability. following head trauma which was big. warning lights going off uh and he was. an alcoholic another big warning light. and his name was Francis Edward Sweeney. who who also happens to have a relative.

in Congress right a guy named. representative Martin Sweeney who was a. huge critic of the Burton administration. of which Elliot NES was a major part um. and he was just the kind of guy uh who. was a political opponent to the degree. that I'm sure Elliot NES thought if he. tried to arrest clearence or um Francis. Sweeny he would uh he would he would be. obstructed you know from Up On High by. this Congress person whether he would. have or not I don't know I I saw some.

references to the idea that Martin. Sweeny was well aware that Elliot Nest. was looking at his cousin for this and. was already getting in the way um but I. only saw that in one place so I'm not. sure if that's the case or not either. way his presence and his connection to. Francis Sweeney was enough that Elliot. Nest never charged Francis Sweeney. despite apparently going to his grave. believing that that Dr Francis Edward. Sweeney was the Cleveland torso murderer. have you seen a picture of the guy dude.

he looks like the definition of a torso. murderer if you if you like seriously. you have to be careful with that stuff. espe if you ever end up a juror you. can't be like you look like a killer but. this guy looks like a torso murderer. you're exactly right uh the quick. sidebar not sure if I ever mentioned it. on this show I know I've talked about on. a movie Crush but I want I'd recommend. this great great documentary and forgive. me if I'm repeating myself here but it's. called crazy not insane MH uh it's an. HBO documentary about this doctor Dr.

Dorothy OT no Lewis who basically spent. her life trying to understand serial. killers and one of the uh main she was. kind of one of the first people to. really try and understand what's. actually going on and she put together I. think like three very common uh common. commonalities among serial killers but. one of them is is head trauma and that's. why this really stands out to me about. Francis Edward Sweeney was that he. discharged from uh the Army because of.

head trauma leading to mental. instability it's a commonality in in. most serial killers is some sort of head. trauma especially when you're younger. wow that's interesting I did not know. that yeah and the um I may have I. thought I talked about on this but it. was uh the uh who was the guy in La that. that also just had a great docu series. on The Night Stalker Richard Ramirez he. suffered multiple head traumas when he. was younger as well so I think it's it's. I can't remember the third one it's head.

trauma some sort of physical uh and even. sexual abuse as a child and then there. was like one more thing and those are. like that's just a recipe for ending up. some sort of sociopath or serial killer. I think the third one is disappointing. birthday presents yeah maybe so be. warned it's a great you'd really love. it's a really good documentary um yeah. I'll check that out for sure it sounds. like it's totally at my alley I'm. actually a Gog that I've not heard of it. don't be a Gog I'm I'm a little gog all.

right come. back so like you said maryn barsley. confirmed from one of the investigators. that Francis Sweeney was Gaylord. sonheim but that does not mean that. Francis Sweeney was the Torso murderer. although again like you were saying if. you look at a picture of Francis sweny. you're like that's totally the Torso. murderer well other stuff you know the. head trauma the medical training he was. a surgeon and Residence at St Alexis. Hospital mhm his career deteriorated. because of his drinking right around the.

time the first uh murderer victim. started showing up too yeah he also had. a deal apparently with a local uh. Mortuary where they would give him. bodies to practice surgery on which. would explain maybe the the kill room or. the dismemberment room he would have a. place to go uh and dispose of these. bodies without you know there being a. big Blood Trail you know right I mean. this is a place where it wouldn't seemed. weird that somebody was decapitating a. body or draining the body of all of its.

blood like that's exactly the kind of. place and that didn't turn up until. years later and it was thanks to a guy. named James badal who's written some. books on it um on the Torso murderers. and he interviewed uh one of the one of. the early investigators and found out. that he had privileges at that funeral. home and started to put two and two. together yeah there was one a couple of. other things um he did send taunting. letters to Elliot nest for years yeah uh.

some one of them was signed Fe Sweeney. paranoid Nemesis yeah but was this after. he had been kidnapped by. nes yes so he knew NES by this time and. he also didn't say like I did it you. didn't catch me anything like that I get. the impression it was more like you. didn't catch the guy you're terrible at. this everybody hates you but still. taunting stuff but yes this would have. been after he was kidnapped cuz this was. up into like the 4. yeah that's true uh and then I think to.

me one of the biggest uh red flags. pointing in the direction of Sweeney is. I mentioned a near victim earlier in the. episode this was a transient his name. was uh Emil Fric and he was living in. Cleveland in 34 and one day he was lured. into a doctor's office on the second. floor along Broadway Avenue and the. doctor said here I'll give you some. shoes and a meal if you come up here. fron it goes up eats a little bit of the. meal starts to feel lightheaded and.

bolts and makes it to a train car and. basically passes out for three days MH. and then later on I think in 1938 was. being interviewed after the cops year. about this old Melo goes to pick them up. and they narrow down the area to 50th to. 55th streets along Broadway where uh. Sweeney had a doctor's office yeah he. couldn't specifically say that was the. place where it happened that that uh. author James badal says that he thinks. he came in the back way rather than the.

front way where they were showing him um. and and but he did say that's he had an. office right there right around that. area so uh and he was there at the time. it so it I mean that's some pretty. serious circumstantial stuff I think so. but the thing is there's no Smoking Gun. there's no anything that says. definitively and we probably will never. have anything definitively it says it's. Francis Sweeney so we've kind of reached. this point this Plateau where it's like. you just basically choose a s either you.

know it's Francis Sweeney or it wasn't. and some people who say no I don't think. it was Francis Sweeney make some pretty. good cases um there were other similar. murders in the area starting in the 20s. and going into the 50s um that that. really bore a lot of resemblance to the. Torso murders um and then other people. say Okay um I I feel the opposite of. that where 's like I don't think Rose. Wallace was one of the victims I think.

there were multiple Killers doing. similarish stuff maybe copycats even um. and that it wasn't all just one person. um there there's there's there is and. there's probably always going to be a. lot of competing theories about what you. know who is responsible yeah the one. theory that it wasn't him that I don't. buy did you say where where he was. living in. sanduski no huh all right so here's the. deal he uh Francis Sweeny was apparently.

enrolled or checked into uh the soldiers. and sailor home in sanand dusy which I. guess is an old like a veterans home. right yeah yeah I think yes so that's. what it seems like so he was checked in. there and one of the reasons that people. say he didn't do it was CU he was. checked in in this place in sand dusy. like a couple hours away and I I just. don't buy that they later came out and. said you know they could come and go as. they pleased he could easily have if he. didn't want to get caught be committing. these murders in Cleveland and then.

going back to Sandusky as well right. yeah because he was there voluntarily so. he would not have been watched or. monitored or they wouldn't have kept. tabs on him and when they figured this. out it was years later so no one would. have been able to recall where he was or. wasn't on a certain day you know yeah I. think it's. Sweeny do you I think there's not. because of his picture but there are so. there were other murders in the area. that you know it could have still been. Sweeney too some people connect the.

black dollia murder to it because there. was a taunting note that the cops got in. 1938 that said the cops can rest easy. because the killers moved to sunny. California um but if you look at the. black dollia murder there's really not a. lot of resemblance between the two um. Theos are really rather different so. that's probably not the case agreed uh. well if you want to know more about the. uh Cleveland torso murders there's a. whole rabbit hole on the internet and in. books including one by James badal and.

another by Marilyn barsley um that you. can follow and uh if you do good luck. with that since I said good luck with. that it's time for listener. mail I'm going to call this uh we we did. not help out this gentleman okay know uh. Hey guys love the podcast I've been. listening for the past several years. I've almost gotten through the whole. Library uh has some left from 2018. apparently uh I work work as a mus a. musical instrument repair technician at. a local University in independently in.

Greensboro North Carolina so I usually. listen while I work on repadding. clarinets and cleaning tubas nice cool. job uh anyway I was listening to your. show this evening on on Korean fand. remember that or we talked about it I. don't think it was all about that but it. was it was the short stuff about it was. it mhm okay I remember that being like a. top 10 or something anyway uh I. immediately thought finally a way that I. can find some legit reason for getting. rid of the fan in our room my fiance.

Abby loves having a fan and that noise. when we go to sleep it's something I can. deal with but honestly I do not care for. it so when I finally got home I told. Abby hey we got a serious episode stuff. you should know we should listen to I. started the episode without. pre-screening and trusted you guys would. pull through for me needless to say an. interesting episode but I did not get. the confirmation bias I was looking for. instead we had a good laugh and a great. evening uh looking forward to get. getting the book uh I wish you guys the. best and looking forward to many more.

and that is from John. Goodman holy cow John. Goodman we love you in the Coen Brothers. stuff his name's John Goodman I'm going. to plug his business Goodman custom. Woodwinds if you're in the Greensboro. North Carolina area and you need that. clarinet repadded go to John Goodman for. sure and even if you're not it's. probably worth the drive right I mean. where else you going to do it Charlotte. I don't yeah come on give me heck no uh. well thanks a lot John Goodman we. appreciate that sorry we couldn't help. you out but at least you enjoyed the.

episode and ultimately isn't that what. counts yes uh if you want to get in. touch with us like John Goodman did you. can send us an email to stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].