Selects: The Case of Sacco and Vanzetti | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

howdy everybody uh this is Chuck here of. the stuff you should know podcast and it. is Saturday it's actually Wednesday in. my real time world but in the future it. will be Saturday when you're listening. to this because it is my charge to. deliver to you a classic stuff you. should know. episode handpicked and curated by yours. truly and this week we're going with a. pretty good history up for March 2019. the case of SEO and. vanetti.

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W Chuck. Bryant and there's guest producer Josh. over there so you put the three of us. together and we're going to get a little. True Crime history on you with the trial. of Sako and vanetti.

yeah these guys uh I mean a little. backstory on I guess the time we're. talking about uh the 1920s in the United. States right we're talking about uh two. gentlemen that were both anarchists that. were both Italian. immigrants and uh both. supposedly um followers of this really. notable Anarchist named Luigi. gallani who who uh this guy was um sort.

of an anarchist leader he put out a. Anarchist rag he was um called for. violence um he has a history of. authorizing like bombings assassination. attempts um like really tough stuff. right and so this is who um supposedly. sacko and vinetti were you know I guess. by association advocating. advocating sure advocating for this type. of violence themselves as immigrant.

anarchists do you remember in our uh. anarchism episode like during this. period in like a 10-year period. anarchists assassinated like five or six. major heads of state around the world. including McKinley in uh the United. States it was a big deal it was a big. deal and um I mean there was also a. struggle going on for the soul of. America were we going to be socialists. were we going to be capital should we.

just go with anarchism um there was a a. lot of uh a lot. of debate over you know which which. economy we should go with or what what. politics we should go with and there was. something of a Red Scare because. communism was on the table too there was. a Red Scare at the time too so it wasn't. like the kind of time you would walk. around like yeah I'm an anarchist no get. on board you know but and at the same. time if you weren't an anarchist you're. probably scared of anarch just because.

they would bomb stuff and they were well. known for it too yeah so I mean this is. not just the United States like all over. the world um there were political. radicals uh there was uh violence from. Anarchy and and riots and like you said. people trying to take down like. politicians or judges that were. deporting at least in United States. deporting immigrant anarchists back to. their home countries like as quickly as. they could root them out basically right. right so this is sort of the stage in.

the early. 1920s um and I guess we should hop in. the way back machine oh yes let's and. head on over to Baston. town okay that's Boston by the way yeah. know I know okay it doesn't matter if I. know just make sure the way back machine. knows what you're talking oh the way. back machine knows it it can read my. silly accents so so here we are it's. 1920 around Boston actually we're not in.

Boston Proper we're about 10 10 mil. South in the little town of brain tree. yeah which these days would be Boston. Proper so I mean you know more or less. yeah it's like the Metro Boston area. right um and brain tree was known as a. shoe manufacturing center it had more. than one shoe company which meant it was. a shoe manufacturing center M and um on. this particular day in April of 1920 I. think it was April 15th right correct.

in brain treat there was a dude named. Shelly Neil who was an agent for the. American Express company and the. function I got of Shelly Neil was that. he would he was kind of like a um a. Brinks armed guard yeah like a courier. for money and not just some money like a. lot of money yeah on on this day from. the 9:18 a.m. train from Boston Shelly. Neil went to the brain tree uh the brain.

tree train depot and picked up. $30,000 30 grand in cash which is uh. about. $427,000 in 2018 money yeah he did this. every week right um he picked it up and. he took it back to his office and um he. opened up a a metal box and inside it. had two two canvas bags and each was the. payroll for um of the two shoe companies.

that he picked up money for one of which. was called Slater and Morel I'm not sure. what the other one was maybe it was 3K. definitely Slater and Mel was one of. them the other was New. Balance okay yes so Slater and Mel and. New Balance were the ones whose payroll. he had on him that day yeah and it's. it's so amazing how that stuff used to. work back then like how payroll was just. so lowf it would literally be a huge. amount of cash delivered in a box that.

he would take to an office and someone. would sit there and stuff cash into. envelopes to then go to like a factory. to pay off employees not pay off but to. pay to pay them they their legit check. from working you didn't see nothing this. this week this is for all the shoe. leather all right so that's how it. worked back then and so this is what he. was doing it's just like any other. Thursday um however on this day as he. went in he noticed a car out front that.

he had not seen before this big car that. had like these little uh curtains on the. inside windows that were pulled shut and. other people in brain tree um later on. would report seeing that car kind of. tooling around and they said it looks. like it's got like four or five men. inside that look Italian and they're. just sort of driving around brain tree. which I guess to raise some. suspicions sure because again if you. were Italian um you may may have been uh.

associated with anarchists who were. associated with bomb throwing so four or. five of them kind of aimlessly driving. around the town of Braintree this little. tiny town I'm sure aroused some. suspicions and definitely did because. there were a lot of people who later on. said that they saw this car driving. around between 9:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m. that's right so about 3: that afternoon. um here's what happened next for payroll. uh these people had to get these. envelopes so what's known as a pay.

master and this is also sort of part of. the arm guard thing um because the pay. Master a has a gun and then has a guard. with a gun uh this guy's name was Freddy. parminter and the guard was alesandro. berelli and so they stop by they pick up. all these envelopes they're going down. to the factory they're going to pay. everybody and all of a sudden Bam Bam. Bam Bam gun fire and Mayhem.

ensues I didn't realize there was going. to be special effects in this episode. hey well you know I tried to so you did. man it has been. bred um so there these guys are on Pearl. Street and when these shots suddenly. just uh ring out and um the first guy's. hit barelli's hit uh and he goes down I. believe it was barelli who was hit first. um oh no he wasn't hit it was parer who. was hit berardelli is on the ground um.

and he has lost his gun and the he's. being approached by a man with a gun on. him and uh berelli apparently has begged. for his life to no avail the man shoots. him in the chest at least once and the. bullet um punctures his lungs uh one of. his major arteries to his heart and then. lodges lodges itself in its hip to be. fished out later on by a corner and used. in the case against sacko and vanetti uh.

the other guy parman or the pain Master. uh he gets hit a few times staggers. across the street and um and collapses. and this car a blue touring car um which. is you know a big sedan that you would. think of today like a touring we'll call. it a lincol Town Car even though that's. not at all what it was that blue car. that had been seen kind of driving. driving around right okay that's another. way to put it it was a Buick yeah the. but the same one that had been seen.

driving slowly around brain tree all. morning suddenly pulls up and the guys. who had shot these these two men and. taken the money about. $15,000 um hopped in and it drove off. and everyone lost sight of it yeah and. very uh importantly the man who shot. berardelli had a a hat a felt cap on. right so just remember that little fact. um there were eyewitnesses all over the. place it's not like no one saw this. happen like dozens of people saw this.

yeah it was a daring daylight robbery at. 3:00 in the afternoon Daring Do Right uh. a man named Jimmy boo was one of the. witnesses apparently barelli like died. in his arms and like all people in the. 1920s didn't know any better he. immediately started messing with the. crime scene started picking up gun. shells another guy came by and picked up. the hat and you know they just didn't. know any better at the time I guess. right so um the the the this crime scene.

has been totally messed up but the cops. show up because again this is a big deal. this is a small town and something close. to. $220,000 have just been stolen and two. men murdered for it in this little tiny. town so it was a big deal and the cops. showed up and probably the first thing. they said was. anarchists maybe I'll bet that's kind of. what they would say I think at the time. yeah.

should we take a break geez okay already. yeah I think so that I mean this falls. into uh acts and that's definitely act. one okay all right so dead men in the. street the cops are on the. scene message and. [Music]. scene.

learning stuff is fun with Josh and. [Music]. Shar is it anene or n scene. Chuck we've talked about this a lot and. scene with a not and scene nope cuz it. makes sense you know you do in the. scene right so um saying.

anden so the uh the the cops have shown. up they're investigating the place um. they're not really finding. anything aside from what the witnesses. have already kind of gathered up and are. now holding out to them in their. outstretched Palms right like here's. your evidence copper um but the uh the. the car is searched for all over and. it's not found it just totally. disappears for a couple of days um um. and the uh the it turns up a couple days.

later in the woods I believe south of. brain Tree in a place called Bridgewater. which is a little even further south. from Boston I think it's another like 10. or so miles down south from um from. brain tree right I think Bridgewater. only had seven Dunkin Donuts so it was a. small town right and so remember when I. said the cops were probably like. anarchists I knew it um there was. another another daylight robbery of.

payroll and I found somewhere that it. said it was successful I found somewhere. else that it was unsuccessful but both. of them agreed there had been no loss of. life whatsoever but it was similar. enough and it had happened like two. years or a year before um it was similar. enough that the cops immediately thought. of the people they'd been thinking of. for this for this earlier crime they. thought this is clearly the work of the. same people yeah and um when they found. this car in the woods very importantly.

the the license plates had been ripped. off mhm and there were other tire tracks. nearby so it seemed pretty obvious that. uh you know they ditch this car get in. another one the officer on the scene. said Marty I think this is the car from. the brain tree Mota all I can think of. is Jeremy rener in in the town sure. that's that's what I think of when I. think Boston yeah everyone thinks said. that sure so um another thing's going on.

in parallel so we need to set this up um. also on April 15th which is the day of. of those. murders um there was a guy Nam uh ferio. coochi and he lived in Bridgewater he. was an anarchist he was being deported. uh so he quits his job you know to be. deported um does not show up to be. deported uh he calls the immigration. service after that on the 16th and said.

oh you know my wife is a sick so I have. to tend to her and they so much email. about this and I going to get in trouble. for that now no you won't get in trouble. everybody loves your Italian accent. please tell me you can still do an. Italian accent right I think so we're. going to find out after this episode um. because I'm just doing the accent sure. not saying like they're all Mobsters cuz. like you know the sanos got in trouble. for that oh. yeah did they did they say all Italians. were Mobsters no but I mean I remember.

they're just being hey about from the. Italian-American Community like why is. it every time in movies we're just. Mobsters oh I could see that you know. sure I mean I could see them yeah but. these aren't even Mobsters no they're. anarchists right so he's being deported. he doesn't go he calls them and says my. wife is sick and they said fine uh we're. going to check out your story though. they found that his wife was not sick. and that all of a sudden he's saying. okay it's fine actually I'm really ready. to go like now come on come on can you.

get me out of the country quickly and. they're like well you should probably. like leave some money with your wife. he's like no no no she's good let's just. go yeah and so they're like all right. this is a little odd so let maybe he's. involved can I can I paint the scene a. little bit though I want to go back over. and highlight two things that you've. mentioned so far sure one this was a. time where to cover up a crime all you. had to do was remove the license plates. on the car you ditched that was was it. you just confounded the cops forever.

well that helped and then secondly if. you were to be deported all you had to. do is not show up but then call them the. next day and say your wife was sick and. and Immigration and Naturalization would. say sure no problem well no they they. investigate it. immediately okay but I'm just saying. like this is things have changed a tad I. think is what I'm trying to say hold on. let me let me see Josh what are you. trying to say you trying to say that. yeah I'm trying to say that okay cool. yes that's exactly what I'm trying to. say. it's weird because you looked on both of.

your shoulders at the Devil and the. angel right but they won't shut up. Chuck so uh they sum they summarize you. know it's all coming together this guy's. acting. weird the 16th he's also choke one of. those people that they liked for that. that um robbery the the year before. which is one of the reasons why they. they had their intent up about this guy. in the first place right so he's a. suspect uh the cops go to uh.

specifically um Michael Stewart police. chief said I'm going to go back to his. house I'm going to see what else I can. find out from this guy he shows up and. there's a dude there named Mike Boda who. says yeah sure you can look around you. can look in the house go back and look. in the garage it's two-car garage shed. no problem uh I usually have my car. there it's in Overland but it's in the. shop uh getting repaired and steuart. goes out there and it's like all right. so here's where the Overland parks but. there's some really big tire tracks next.

to the Overland uh and the second stall. that look like they would probably fit. this large Buick that was so. mysteriously kind of tooling around. around the time of this murder right and. this cop Stuart goes H I'm going to make. a mental note of that and that's what he. did he uh he asked about the uh the the. other car I don't know if you said Boda. said that his other car was at the. garage being repaired correct so um so.

Stuart who's the police chief of. Bridgewater I think I get the impression. he's kind of new there was another one. who kind of factors into this case. tangentially later on um who was the. former police chief so I get the. impression that Michael Stewart was. fairly new but he's investigating this. case he likes kaachi he's now met Mike. Boda who is suspicious of too um he goes. back to talk to Boda s more to this. place where kaachi lived uh as bod's. roommate I guess away from his wife and. kids I'm not sure why kaachi was Renning.

this place are we going with kaachi now. yeah I'm pretty sure that's it I took. Italian in college and I'm almost 100%. sure it's kaachi okay do you remember. from our dyslexia episode where Italian. is extremely easy to learn because. there's just very few ways to to write. things to write the phone names one of. the reasons it is easy is because it's. kind of like polish it's in most most. cases it's actually easier than polish. but it's pronounced just like it's. spelled except for the CI is is a CH. sound okay so kaachi okay okay all right.

that was your Italian lesson appreciate. that after all these years the other Lon. not all Italians or Italian Americans. are mobsters that's your other Italian. lesson no okay so um I've known a bunch. of Italians Italian Americans and none. of them were Mobsters bam there you go. um. so uh police chief Stewart goes back to. talk to Boda and things get really. suspicious too don't they because he.

shows up and knocks on the door and the. door just swings open onto an empty. apartment and Stuart spends about 15. minutes going bod Mr bod hello Mr bod. and he finally takes a couple steps in. and realizes B is gone that's right so. he uh he goes by the garage where he the. guy said that his car was in the shop uh. goes over there the car's still there so. that checked out and he told the owner. whose name was Simon Johnson he he said. hey if anyone uh comes to get this car.

just give us a call and the guy says. mental note call cops if someone comes. to get this C Jeremy rener um so on May. 5th this is what a couple of weeks later. um a man comes to the door and this is. at I believe this is it says 9:00 but. that's at night right yeah that I I. couldn't tell it first and then um it. feels like night yeah it says also that. the the wife is is um um inated by a. motorcycle headlight guess at night yeah.

all right so it's unless it's very dark. in the morning right so at 9:00 at night. uh this guy shows up uh to the owners of. the garage's door knocks on the door his. young wife answers uh the guy says that. he's Mike Boda I'm here to pick up my. car uh that ovland over there and the. owner of the garage comes and tells his. wife and he says go call the police you. know we don't have a a phone go next. door call the cops she leaves out the.

back door and is caught like you said. there's this motorcycle sitting outside. she also sees with a side car also sees. a couple of guys that she said were. speaking Italian kind of hanging around. MH so it's all sort of adding up at this. point to uh something fishy yeah so um I. guess the fact that um that Simon uh. Johnson the the shop owner or the. mechanic was stalling made Boda a little. uneasy sure so he took off without the.

car right yeah he jumped in the side car. and was out of there okay here's where. things get super critical for a pair of. guys named Sako and vanetti there were. two other those those two other guys. that Ruth Johnson Simon Johnson the. mechanic's wife said she saw um hanging. out waiting for Mike Boda to get his car. they split too now they're suddenly like. on foot there's no motorcycle or car for. them so they have to leave on foot so.

they walk over toward the direction of. the uh Bridgewater rail line yeah and. she says that she saw them get on the. train or at least go toward the train. station or no the rail car so I think it. might have been like a street car kind. of thing yeah so somehow Chief Stewart. gets word of this I think he shows up he. gets word of this and he calls a the um. the police chief in the next town over. in Brockton and says hey there's going.

to be a pair of Italian Guys on the. street car when the when the when the. street car stops in or the rail car. stops in your town get them they are. wanted for questioning and a murder. robbery and so the Brockton police board. the train when it arrives in Brockton. and there are two Italian men sitting. there and the two men's names were. Nicolas Sako and barolo vanetti and they. just happen to be Italian and they just. happen to be anarchists and they both. happened to be strapped when the cops.

came on the rail car and started asking. them questions yeah Sako had a 32 cult. uh and Van City had a 38 Harrington and. Richardson which uh very uniquely had. five uh Chambers instead of six it's. very unusual do seem seems unique yeah. yeah I don't even know how that works I. would have to see this kind of revolver. cuz six is a nice even number for around. thing I don't I don't get it but no one.

ever says like don't point that five. shooter at me it's always six shooter. you know yeah it's weird although maybe. maybe a five shooter is what they're. talking about when they call it a. peashooter no that's not what they mean. but it was the 1920s and there were all. kinds of weird guns back then right okay. so these these two Italian immigrants uh. who were anarchists and who were. carrying guns had one other big problem. they uh were giving some pretty weak and.

ever evolving stories in answer to the. questions that the cops were asking them. they get hauled into the police station. I believe in Bridgewater um or brain. tree do you know which one it was I. think it was I think it was brain tree. actually they got taken to brain tree. because it was Stuart who was. investigating them so they get taken to. brain tree and police chief Stewart um. questions them but then so too does the. um the chief prosecutor for the area a. guy named Frederick katsman who would.

play an enormous role in this case as. well yeah so he was the da and he the I. think the key fact that really sold him. was he found out that on April 15th on. the day of these murders Saka was not at. work at the 3K shoe factory right and uh. he said you know what that's enough for. me we have no real evidence or anything. else but you are Italian uh Italian. American anarchists you weren't at work.

that day so let's go ahead and haul you. in here right because yeah we left off. the fact that they found like um. Anarchist pamphlets on the on the men. when they when they took them off the. train so there was a lot against them. going against them at this point um just. from the outside of this but you kind of. touched on it all of this is very very. circumstantial yeah so right away the. anarchists of um of the area come on. board uh they form the sacko ven City.

defense committee and one of their. leaders one of the anarchus leaders in. the area named Carlo tresca said all. right let's hire this uh this lawyer. from California this guy's a radical uh. he's going to lead our defense and Moore. comes on board Fred Moore and's like. here's the way we're going to do this is. let's like let's get everyone worked up. like not only in this area but all over. the world let's get radicals and let's. get Anarchist and let's get uh union.

members let's paint these guys it's just. like hardworking bluecollar Union dudes. and let's get people all over the world. paying attention to what's going on over. here yes which is a very common tactic. still in use today just turn public. sentiment against the government and the. prosecutors in their case and um. basically paint it like Sako and venetti. were just a couple of normal dudes who. are being railroaded for for political. reason and probably out of a certain.

amount of xenophobia as well sure so uh. well let's take a break the trial opens. in May of 1921 with judge Webster the. and uh we'll be back with what happens. next right after. [Music]. this. learning stuff is fun with Josh and.

CH Stu you. sh and Chuck before we get back into it. I want to give a shout out to Doug. Linder Douglas Linder who's a law. professor and historian who um wrote a. paper that we used as a source that was. pretty pretty handy pretty good stuff. yeah law professors I mean there's a lot. of good information out here on this mhm. but uh you get a law professor on the on. the typewriter and they're gonna. condense it into a nice readable.

workable document that's right that's. what they do they're very good at that. yes so all right trial's underway um. like I said before judge Webster there. proceeds over this trial um. catsman uh that's the da that's. Prosecuting he has got a lot of. circumstantial evidence he has. eyewitnesses but not really a lot of. Hard Evidence going on right right it's. sort of a tough case for him to like.

solidly prove yeah and that that was. another reason why um Fred Moore was. able to run around drumming up public. sentiment not just in the United States. or even just Boston or Massachusetts but. around the world um that that that Sako. and vanetti were being railroaded is. that the the evidence against them was. really really weak um the eyewitness. testimony was super um if you if you had. the luxury like historians like Douglas.

Linder have had to compare you know um. the original notes or the original. statements made by eyewitnesses um. against the the the types of statements. they made in court the statements they. made in court were much more certain. much more sure and this was after a year. of reading the newspaper and being. exposed to pictures of Sako and vanetti. so when they see Sako and vanetti in the. courtroom they're like yes I saw that. man hand holding that gun and he was the.

one that pulled the trigger the thing is. there was not one witness but there were. Witnesses who placed both of them at the. crime scene or at least in the Buick. around town on that day but there was. not one single witness who placed both. of them there that's just the. eyewitnesses they also had the other big. piece of circumstantial evidence were. the guns that they were found with um. and they used ballistic experts to come. in and say yes this bullet came from. this gun but again looking at it with.

history the the benefit of History um. this was at a time when when ballistics. comparison was just beginning to come. around and the people that they employed. as ballistics experts were self-taught. amateurs who just basically had an. interest in this field were in no way. shape or form genuine experts because. you could make a case there was no such. thing as a genuine ballistics comparison. expert at the time it was too new as far. as forensics goes yeah so on the defense. side um immediately they say those guys.

weren't even in brain tree uh Saka was. in Boston um vanetti was in Plymouth the. both both sides it's it's interesting to. look back on this trial cuz both the. prosecution and the defense were like. being very hinky with the truth. themselves MH um influencing people on. both sides to testify kind of behind the. scenes um Fred Moore the defensive. attorney trotted out a bunch of. witnesses that say no like vanetti was.

definitely in Plymouth he's a fishmonger. bought fish from him and then later on. it was found out that some of these. people well all of them basically were. friends of his and then some of the. people came out even later and said yeah. he kind of told me to say this but that. happened on the prosecution side. too yeah supposedly um later on they. would alleg that the prosecutor um. catsman and the chief or the lead. ballistics or the star ballistics. witness had kind of coordinated the.

answer that the ballistics witness would. give at trial and that it would be much. more stronger and much um much more. certain than he than the actual. conclusion he came to uh prior to the. trial based on his original ballistics. tests yeah so there's there's. hinessmithsonian. so he has this gray cap he said this is. SOS he gets together with an expert.

behind the scenes and says and again. with this like like you were saying sort. of the beginnings of uh not ballistics. in this case but just um forensics any. kind of forensics yeah they he looked at. the hairs in the Hat got a hair from. Sako and Sako was like ow that hurt and. he compared them and he said yeah these. hairs are identical I'm telling you. they're the same hairs but catsman was. like like you know what I don't want to. go to court uh and present this because.

this stuff is all new they're going to. paint you as unreliable because no one. knows anything about hair comparison yet. so instead of doing that he goes to the. boss of the shoe factory George Kelly. and was like have you seen this hat. before and Kelly said yes that's sako's. hat I've seen him wear that hat and the. hole in it is from the nail that he. hangs it on every day when in fact that. was definitely not the case no that.

earlier that previous pre police chief. later testified that he had actually. accidentally punched the hole in the Hat. while he was examining it for any kind. of identifying marks yeah which is weird. he also testified that the Hat had a. very um questionable Providence that it. hadn't come into police custody for 30. hours after the crime so he couldn't say. he he as far as he knew it was not found. at the crime scene that it hadn't been. secured by the police he didn't know. exactly where it came from and then.

finally I read elsewhere in a final. twist and tell stop me if this sounds. familiar but they asked Sako to put the. Hat on in court and it was too small for. his head it didn't fit you must a quit. they did not AC quit though well you. just ruined it oh I'm sorry it's okay. sorry everybody it's funny there's. probably a lot of people out there who. have no idea how this is going to turn. out because if you search on Google just. Sako and. one of the suggested questions is what.

is Sako and. vanetti not who. what it's a nice apertif right so. um I don't know if we mentioned but like. Sako had definitely much more evidence. against him even if it was. circumstantial than benetti did more. eyewitnesses yeah for sure so vanetti is. has the thinnest case against him but he. like he lied to the cops um he had that. gun remember and on the stand he said.

yeah actually I got that gun just a few. days ago uh bought it for four or five. bucks and they're like well you told us. that you bought it four or five years. ago for. $18 right you said there were six uh. Chambers in it and only had five and. what's going on here you're lying Jimmy. vanetti the whole thing with the gun I. don't know if we've said or not yet the. reason why the gun was so suspicious and. was basically like the central piece of. evidence used against um vanetti is that.

it was supposedly the exact same kind of. gun that alesandro berardelli had on him. when he was killed yeah so the the whole. the whole idea was that um vanetti had. been at the at least at the crime scene. if not one of the killers who had taken. barelli's gun after he had killed him. and made off with it which would explain. why he wasn't very familiar with the gun. and how many chambers it had and didn't. have a very solid story about where he'. gotten in and how long he'd owned it too.

that was the implication of the whole. thing and that was basically the that. was it that was the Crux of the. prosecution's case against vanetti. vanzetti's big problem was he was. sitting next to Sako when Sako got taken. off the train and they had a lot more of. Sako and they were tried together rather. than separately yeah in Sako that. ballistics evidence made a big big. difference in the trial because they. found out for sure that that bullet that. killed uh uh barelli was definitely.

fired from a cult. automatic um and your cult automatic is. what they alleged right and uh well we. we'll hold on to that last bit till. later but um about what was found out. later about that but um it it I think. even some of the jurors said that that. was really some of the most compelling. evidence uh against Sako for us in. deciding this case yeah and again like. they're listening to forensic evidence. from a field that's still in the very in.

its. cradle from testimony given by people. who are not experts but that was like. you said the juror said this was that. was it for me that was what convinced me. was the ballistics evidence. basically so they go to uh jury and they. go to. deliberations and just five and a half. uh five and a half hours later the jury. said guilty is charged about six weeks. after the trial started I believe yeah. so it was a big deal you know like uh.

sako's crying out I'm innocent an. Italian in the court. um there were like protests all over the. world like South America France uh. Lisbon it's just crazy how much this at. the time in the 1920s became an. international thing and uh basically. they were due for the electric chair so. people all over the world were. protesting there were bombings um it was. nuts yeah this is I mean this is a time.

when labor was unionized so you could. arouse the sympathy of a lot of people. at once by going to the union hall and. saying like hey your your brothers in. arms over there uh in America or being. railroaded into a murder wrap they're. going to be electrocuting the electric. chair for something they didn't commit. simply because of their political. beliefs how messed up is that and they. you you could arouse some some people. pretty quickly back them by saying that. as opposed to today yeah for sure um.

Moore immediately starts uh the defense. attorney immediately starts uh filing. motions uh trying to get like new trials. uh there was he had an assistant uh. named Eugene Lions who later would come. out and say man like this guy basically. would do. anything um he was framing evidence he. was telling Witnesses what to say like. once he had up in his mind that and keep. in mind this was like a radical lawyer. from California he said once he had in.

mind that these guys uh were innocent he. was like he he basically would do. anything to try and get them off yeah. he'd suborn perjury he'd intimidate. Witnesses he he'd do whatever if he. thought that somebody was being. innocently prosecuted Fred Moore would. stop at nothing to to yeah to get them. off and this article I think kind of. paints an incomplete picture of Eugene. lions and Fred Moore's relationship like. Eugene Lions is also very much an. admirer of Fred Moore too um like he. considered Fred Moore to have the heart. of an artist but he was um he had.

dedicated his life to getting people who. are being steamrolled by the system or. unfairly treated by the. courts out from under these these. charges he was a he was a an early civil. libert civil liberties lawyer basically. was what he was yeah so none of these. motions work he files a bunch of them um. we're not going to detail them all but. none of them uh none of them worked they. were basically uh all turned down theer.

was still the presiding judge he was. turning down all these things then they. went to like federal court they were. turning down motions eventually they. went to the Supreme Court and the. Supreme Court was like why are you. asking us about this like we this is a. state case like we don't even do this. kind of thing yeah the the court at the. time was very much against um or the. majority I should say was against. applying. the con Federal Constitution to state. issues so they wouldn't get involved but.

um I mean it did go all the way to at. least petitioning the Supreme Court they. wouldn't hear it and they wouldn't stay. the execution either um but he as much. as a lawyer can exhaust petitions and. appeals for clemency um and in the stay. of execution Fred Moore did and then. later on another defense lawyer named. William Thompson who took over for Fred. Moore after fired Fred Moore um did the. same thing like up to the eve the eve of.

the execution they were Relentless and. filing appeals with anything anything. they could get their hands on um they. filed an entire motion for a new trial. based strictly on Judge theer's. perceived uh prejudice against um. anarchists apparently he did not like. anarchists and he treated Sako and. venetti as such um throughout the the. trial um and as you're if you're just. watching watching this from the outside. if you're reading about this in the. press and you're already on Saku and.

vetti's side judge they are turning down. motion after motion after motion after. motion um looks really bad it looks very. much like this judge is bent on. railroading these two immigrant. anarchists into an an early and unjust. death by electric chair so the the um. the. Public's sympathies were aroused even. further for Sako and Veni and that would. last for decades after this trial up.

Century almost now yeah so sako's in. jail and another weird thing happens. while he's in jail at uh In deam Deed. ham there was another prisoner there uh. who passed a note on and said basically. uh I'm confessing to this crime U my. name is uh celestino. mados and there were like all right well. let's let's talk to this guy he's. confessing to this crime and saying that.

Sako and vinetti are innocent uh he said. I was there I was um with four other. guys so that kind of checks out as as. far as the the five Italians he said we. met in uh Providence at a bar and we. just come came up with this plan he said. there was a guy named Mike a guy named. Bill I don't know the other guys I was. scared we switched cars in the woods. like all this stuff was sort of making. sense. um but it really didn't like in the end.

there were too many other things that. were wrong uh like he said that they. didn't get there till afternoon and. everyone was like no that car was there. like maybe between 9:00 a.m. and noon um. he also said that the payroll money was. in a bag when it was in a metal box and. so there were enough inconsistencies. basically where uh he wasn't really a. major suspect like they considered it. Thompson tried to use it as the basis. for a new trial but none of this worked.

because the was still kind of calling. the shots this is before they ran it up. the flag pole yeah but again News Made. made its way out into the international. press that someone had confessed and not. only confessed said that Sako and. vanetti weren't there and this this. judge who had it out for Sako and. vanetti refused to even hear this this. motion to uh to have a new trial so it. looked it looked bad as well too it did. so it looked bad enough that the. governor at the time Alvin Fuller said. you know what we have to do something.

here there's just too much public. pressure going on from around the world. he said so here's what we'll do we'll. get a a a three-person advisory. committee they're going to investigate. this he said hey you uh Lawrence LOL. you're the president of havid you had. this thing up uh and then what was known. as the LOL commission um finally issued. a report uh which said basically uh. Beyond A Reasonable Doubt Sako is guilty.

H and vanetti said uh on the whole it's. our opinion that he's also guilty Beyond. A Reasonable Doubt and everyone was like. Well why'd you say all those other words. then and they're like what what other. words yeah uh really kind of a strange. final report what's funny is in the. Boston area if they're like we need. somebody smart get me the president of. Harvard well yeah and in the end he's. like you are definitely guilty of Beyond. A Reasonable Doubt and so are you more. or less is in our opinion right no I.

know it was weird and it remains weird. but apparently years later when LOL was. asked about that he was saying like no. that wasn't an indication that we. thought Vanzetti had any kind of um any. kind of Innocence to him or that he. wasn't guilty um I I'm not sure exactly. how he explained it but he basically. said no that wasn't that's not what that. was oh interesting I don't know what he. thought it was there was a weird way to. put it but that was I think the other.

thing that kind of arouses people's. interest in that or suspicion maybe even. is that that's what a lot of people. think that Sako was definitely guilty. yeah I shouldn't say a lot but some. people that Sako was definitely guilty. and if anyone was innocent it was van. zetti so the idea that this LOL. commission came up with this back in the. 20s even um is significant but yeah LOL. was like no that's not what we meant by. that so none of these stays of execution. uh go through so they're reunited they. were split up in jail for many many.

years um six years and then they were. finally reunited at Charlestown State. Prison uh for execution in April and uh. they had like you you would wouldn't. believe how many cops they have in this. town uh to cover this thing because it. was sort of one of the first Crimes of. the century I think and people were mad. all over the country and all over the. world like we've been talking about they. didn't know if there going to be more. bombings people were going to like. literally storm the prison and try and.

overtake them and free them so they had. tons and tons of cops. everywhere uh Sako is first to go and as. they are strapping him in he's crying. out in Italian Long Live Anarchy and. then in English very quietly he says. Farewell My Wife and child and all my. friends and uh right when they finally. threw the switch he screamed out Mama. and I don't think like that no no I'm.

not making Li of it I don't think he was. like whoa mama no I don't think so. either I think he was calling for his. mother yes which is pretty sad but also. kind of sweet yes um and then vanz comes. in and he's like oh it's my turn all. right well okay uh I want to make sure. everybody knows that I am innocent um so. I think it's significant that Saka was. the one that shouted in the courtroom. that he was innocent but didn't during. his execution yeah and vanetti didn't.

say anything in the courtroom but during. his execution he's like I'm innocent and. not only that he really turned the. screwdriver he said I want to make it. known that I forgive all of you who are. about to do this to me and he started. crying well the warden started crying. when he gave the uh the switch gave the. nod to turn to throw the switch on the. electric chair and kill vanetti tears. flowing everywhere hi High drama. yes I'm surprised a. movie surely it has been but all bet it.

was in like the 70s or something we just. aren't aware of it like Warren batty. played Sako and venetti in some weird. casting and somehow Jeremy rener played. all the cops he right. exactly. umov so Sako and venetti are dead like. they're dead the state took their lives. they executed them these conceivably. innocent men who were railroaded to the. exra chair on circumstantial evidence. and the testimony of some ballistic e.

experts who were not experts by anyone's. measure um these men are now dead and. the world reacts um predictably there. were riots six people died in a riot in. Germany um the the American Embassy in. Paris had already been bombed so they uh. they brought tanks out on the night of. the execution uh and surrounded it this. time and there were no bombings um there. were riots in Geneva Switzerland this. may have been the only time anyone ever.

ried in Geneva Switzerland um there were. like 5,000 Pro protesters who destroyed. everything that was even passingly. American um and Sako and Vetti went into. the history books says a couple of. innocent men who were executed. wrongfully by the state because of their. political beliefs they were political. prisoners who were executed for their. beliefs basically is how most people of. come to see Sako and. vanetti yeah but uh many years later a.

couple of uh a few notable things. happened um in 1941 that gentleman I. mentioned earlier the car uh Carlo. tresca the anarchist leader um a couple. years before he died in the 1940s. basically said you know what Saka was. guilty he was a trigger man but vanetti. was not guilty um other people had heard. the same thing from tresca and then in. 1961 they had um actual ballistics test. done and uh it was concluded that uh.

that was in fact a bullet from sako's. gun but people still were saying no you. know what I think that bullet was. planted so we render that inconclusive. but I think Doug Linder does a pretty. good job of of taking the planted bullet. theory fatal bullet or bullet number. three is what it's called in the trial. um and and basically saying No this is. why that doesn't really hold up and. probably the biggest one is um when.

those ballistics Witnesses gave their. testimony um both of the prosecution's. star ballistic Witnesses said yes I I. would conclude probably that it came out. of this gun or it's it's probable or. possible or something like that they. couched their expert opinions when they. gave their testimony and if they were. part of a conspiracy to frame Sako in. the planting of this bullet they would. have given much more forceful testimony.

which in and of itself is a. circumstantial evidence against this. planted bullet theory but it draws so. closely on common sense that I think it. it it makes sense to me it undermines. the idea that the bullet was. planted yeah uh there was another. gentleman named Giovani Gamba who said. um you know what my dad um before he. died in 1982 he told me he was on this. team team of anarchists that met after. their arrest to get their defense. mounted and he told me and everyone said.

basically that Saka was guilty and Ben. zetti was innocent and then weirdly uh. in 2005 Upton Sinclair the very famous. author said that he was researching a. book and he was going to write it uh he. was writing a book about this whole. thing and he met with Fred Moore the the. radical defense attorney that mounted. the defense for basically most of the. the case and he said he met with him in. a hotel room he like dude give me the.

real story and he said that Moore told. him yeah Saka was guilty and um vanetti. was innocent and I. basically came up with this whole. defense on my own like made all this. stuff up yeah yeah years later it came. out that um the seven ey Witnesses for. the defense who said that they saw um. Sako eating. uh lunch in Boston at the time of the um. robbery and brain tree had all been set.

up by the uh the defense or at least by. an anarchist group had who had asked. them to go perjure themselves and um. yeah I think that kind of jbes with the. Eugene Lion's quote that like if he. thought these guys were innocent they. would do he would do anything to to get. them off including you know putting. Witnesses on the stand knowing that they. were going to lie and telling them to. lie and this was a letter from Upton. Sinclair based on an interview with Fred. Moore so it's it has it has a lot of.

teeth but the the the thing there was. another letter from Upton Sinclair. another quote from Upton Sinclair where. he said that Fred Moore had confessed to. him that um venetti was innocent and he. knew he was innocent but he was pretty. sure Sako wasn't but all he had to do. was go to the the jury and say Hey you. we all know that you don't have anything. on venetti there's no reason for you to. to to prosecute this man but he knew.

that if he did that the jury would be. like well you're probably right but. we're going to come down really hard on. Sako so he had this dilemma and he took. it to to vanetti he said and vanetti. said you know what try to save Nick. Nicolas Sako um he has the wife he has. the child I don't try to get him off so. vanetti in this retelling by Fred Moore. gave his life on the chance that that. Fred Moore could get Sako off because if. he got Sako off he'd get vanetti off if.

he got vanetti off he would almost. surely sink um Sako and Vetti wouldn't. take the uh take the opportunity to to. to be acquitted at the expense of Sako. which is pretty amazing amazing yep so. that's Sako and vanetti everybody that's. what a Sako and vanetti is now you know. I guess one guilty and one innocent. that's what it sounds like that's what. it sounds like if you want to know more. about Sako and vaniti go look up Doug.

Linder I believe he has a whole site on. True Crime and there's plenty of other. stuff uh out there that we found too on. the internet about Sako and vanetti and. their famous trial and since I said Sako. and vanetti like 80 times it's time for. listener. mail uh I'm going to call this response. to a short. stuff yeah right hey guys uh your show's. one of my favorite podcasts so much so. that I've taken to listening to it while. I get ready for work whoa CU we know. that is your sacred time yeah naen um I.

just finished the episode on black. loyalist and immediately started to. write the email I'm a Rhode Islander in. Nova Scotia for work and got so excited. to hear a little piece of Nova scotia's. history on there uh I looked into the. loyal loyalist Heritage Museum but it. only has weekday operation so I don't. think I'll be able to make it there I'll. definitely do some exploring of Halifax. though in the coming weeks and we'll be. on the lookout for more information uh. just wanted to mention on the show that.

it was uh Josh said that Rhode Island. may not have ever had slaves um actually. we were the first state to abolish. slavery in 1652 but the law was mostly. ignored and we ended up with the most. slaves per capita of any Colony I did. not know that uh we also had a pretty. booming slave trade in uh Newport Rhode. Island now known for their gilded aged. Splendor a piece of Rhode Island history. I'm sure most don't learn in history. class that I wanted to shed light on. thanks for always putting out a funny. and informative and entertaining show.

that is from naen Greg thanks a lot naen. that was great uh thanks for listening. while you get ready for work hope work's. going well up there in Nova Scotia uh. just think spring to you and everybody. up there in Nova Scotia frankly uh if. you want to get in touch with us you can. join us on stuff you should know.com. check out our uh Social Links there uh. and you can just send us a good. oldfashioned email wrap it up spank it. on the bottom and send it off to stuff. podcast at howstuffworks.com.

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