Selects: Salem Witchcraft Trials: More Bonkers Than You Know | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Happy sin everybody. You know [music]. across the world people are celebrating. the day of the year when the veil. between the living and the dead is the. thinnest. And since you can expect all. the usual ghosts and jacko'lanterns and. serial killers and the like. Today for. this week's special Halloween select, I. decided to go even darker with a genuine. American horror story of the worst. variety. the kind that really happened. Well, witchcraft always gets top billing.

when we talk about the Salem witchcraft. trials, which makes sense because it's. right there in the name. But when we dig. just a little deeper, we find an. isolated village that turned on itself, and that the executions that took place. were murder, plain and simple. It's one. of the more chilling chapters in. American history, and this 2021 episode. is one of our better ones. I hope you. enjoy it and that it doesn't. accidentally tear the veil between. living and dead where you happen to be. listening to it. If so, I'm sorry in.

advance for the terrible fate that will. befall you. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark. There's [music] Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there. There's Jerry. over here, uh, lurking around like a bit. of a ghoul because it is the Halloween.

season after all. Uh, and this is stuff. you should know. >> That's right. Spooky witch trials. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's really nice to. like have stuff like this that you can. be removed from by a few hundred years. and, you know, it just kind of evokes. that Halloween spirit or whatever. But. Chuck, I have found just in recently. researching this, if you put yourself. into the position of the people who are. like walking to the gallows and like.

think about how nuts all this was, it is. exponentially scarier on a much more. existential level. It goes beyond like. Halloween spooky to this is a genuinely. frightening event in the history of. America. >> No kidding. I mean, like it was messed. up in every way, shape, or form. >> So, I take it you never read The. Crucible. >> I did read The Crucible, but I read it. in the. >> No, I really didn't because I I don't I.

don't know if it was me. Maybe I wasn't. mentally or emotionally prepared to. accept it on that level. Who knows? But. >> no, it was it was like imagining myself. in the shoes of the people who are going. to die. Um that got me researching. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's dark. >> No. Uh no no no shade though on um. Arthur Miller. He was great and his play. was great and it was very timely for the. time. >> Yeah. I mean I you know there have been. so many kind of. movie adaptations and TV movie.

adaptations about this time. >> and I'm still waiting for sort of the. one great one. >> that's not The Crucible. Well, I think. part of the reason why there hasn't been. that great one yet is because historians. are still like actively competing at. explaining just what exactly happened in. Salem. It was such an anomaly. Even. among like Puritans, even among people. who believe there was such a thing as. witchcraft and even executed witches, this was a a genuine anomaly, at least.

as far as American history goes. And I. think because they don't understand it. fully, it's difficult to really get the. point across as well, you know? >> I don't know, man. I think you could. make a great movie. Like, look at The. Witch. That that danced around it so. well. Like, you just need a movie like. that, but based on this. >> Well, why don't we just say The Witch. then is the is all we need. >> Well, because it wasn't about the Salem. witch trials. >> But, I mean, it was so analogous to it. and took place at the same time, you. know? I mean, we'll just pretend like.

there's a trial scene that they cut it. they cut out. Okay. [laughter]. >> And there actually is, remember, >> a lot of other people. >> they drag um they drag the father into. court basically and and excommunicate. him. So there is almost like a witch. trial scene right there. >> Yeah, that's true. Forgot about that. first. >> The witch is the Salem witch trial movie. we've always needed. >> That's right. >> So I'm glad we we resolved that. You. must feel very satisfied now. >> Yeah, I completely disagree, but I'm.

just moving on. So, um, everybody knows. about the Salem witch trials, right? But. I think because, you know, we learn. about it in American history. You hear. about it as Halloween stories, all of. that kind of stuff. But like I said, I. mean, we really genuinely don't. understand what happened. And that's. despite the fact that it is really well. documented because a lot of the stuff. took place in the courts and they wrote. a lot of stuff down. But we only have. like official primary documents that. were written by people who were aware.

that these were public documents rather. than say a trove of private journals and. letters. The Puritans didn't do that. that much. And so we don't have like. kind of the underneath the official. lying explanation for what happened. >> Well, yeah. And if if people are. confused by what we mean there, you. know, there were other witch trials in. other places in the young America, >> there were other witch trials in. centuries previous in other countries.

and there were mild panics and stuff, but Salem like collectively lost their. mind. >> for a short period of time. And that's. what people still don't get. They're. like why why did that happen only there. to to this scope and this degree? >> Mh. >> Uh and you know people have looked at. various biological reasons and things. like that but I don't know it I think it. was just sort of one of those weird. things that could only happen like at. one place and one time.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And there was actually a. guy uh who wrote a book in 1982 named. John Demos and he said not only can it. happen like under these very specific. circumstances, here are the. circumstances that could happen in. And. he he his book wasn't just about Salem, it mentioned Salem, but it was about. like witchcraft trials and panics and. accusations in New England in general. And he basically said that when a town. starts out really small and it's like a. a colonial town, they're living like on. the razor's edge of existence. A lot of.

them don't really know each other. They're dying. So there's a big. population turnover as newcomers come. in. And there's just not enough. familiarity to say, "I think you're a. witch." to accuse your neighbor or. something like that. But then after they. settle in a little while and maybe. there's like some boredom and everybody. gets to know each other and you have. grudges, but you're still living in a. really small area, that's when the the. witchcraft accusations can really take. place. And Salem seems to have kind of. followed that pattern, too, that these.

witch witchcraft accusations like really. took hold at a time where the the colony. was under tons of stress. people knew. each other, had had decadesl long. rivalries and land disputes and they. lived still in a very small little. village that and they were basically. crawling all over one another and saw. one another and you could not get away. from people you didn't like. >> Yeah. And this is especially true in. Salem. Uh there was Salem Village and. Salem Town and like you said, they were.

stacked on each other and there were a. lot of uh like, "Hey, your cowl can't. graze over this imaginary line because. that's my land and you're not even. allowed to build a fence over there.". Like kind of common land disputes that. hap have happened throughout history. But in Salem, they were just they were a. they were described as a very quarrelome. people. They were they fought and argued. a lot kind of more so than it seems like. even other Puritans in other parts of.

the country. >> Yeah. And the Puritans in general were. deeply latigious. They took each other. to court at the drop of a hat. At the. drop of a hat with a belt buckle on it. Um but they they they had a like the way. that they supported that um that kind of. latigiousness was to say most of the. courts would be like you need to go. handle this privately and then this kind. of secondary mediation kind of thing. would come in and there'd be. negotiations and then the the dispute. would be resolved. But the first thing.

that they would do is drag one another. into court. That was how they they would. get one another's attention. >> Yeah. And so this is sort of the. backdrop of what's going on in the. Massachusetts Bay Colony and. particularly in Salem Village and Salem. Town, which I think I think Salem. Village today is Danver. >> That's right. >> And then Salem Town is Salem. >> That's right. >> Still around and still has spooky. connotations. >> Yeah. And Danvers is where the um the. state asylum was located. That was the.

setting for one of the greatest horror. films of all time, Session Nine. Oh, that's right. >> Oh, man. That's a movie I don't even. know if I want to see again. >> It's so good. I saw it a year or two ago. and it's still just as good. >> It's great. Um, all right. So, the. Puritans were in control. I guess the. the back backdrop of this was there were. full-on, you know, human holocausts in. Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. with their witch crazes. And things got. really out of hand over there. But by.

the time folks got over here, they were. mainly just arguing a lot. And there. were, you know, there was a small witch. panic in Connecticut. Uh not small if. you were one of the people accused, but. it it didn't quite get out of hand. Um. certainly not like it did in Europe in. centuries previous. >> Yeah. And I saw an explanation. Um I. want to give a shout out to a couple of. sites, but one I got a lot of info from. is called the historic present. And um. they were pointing out that like for the. most part, yes, people generally agreed. that there were such things as witches.

Um and yes, you would accuse your. neighbor of witchcraft, but it was kind. of like it was a way of like getting. your neighbor's attention. Like, I'm. serious about this. I'm publicly. accusing you of being a witch. Let's. talk about your cow grazing on on my. land. >> Yeah. you know, um, and that was another. thing that made Salem so anomalous is it. just kept going and going through these. steps of like the court and trial and. then finally executions and and it it. just got out of hand basically.

>> Right. So the the Puritans are in. control in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. They've got an iron fist on on ruling. They don't like basically anybody who is. not a Puritan. It seems like most of the. Puritans didn't even like each other. Uh. but they c certainly didn't like. Quakers. They didn't like Catholics. And. they did all they could to really. establish themselves as the ones in. charge and did so well. >> Yeah. It depends on who you're talking. about though. There were some Puritans. who were deeply conservative religious.

leaders like increase Mather um who. wanted to just completely secure 100%. Puritan control. But there was also like. a real um thread through the Puritan. leadership that was willing to like give. like voting rights and and um the. ability to be elected into office to. non-puritans who lived in in town. Um. and they had kind of a protodemocracy in. a lot of ways. So it it like the. Puritans in general, yes, were deeply. intolerant of Quakers and Catholics and.

they actually tortured Quakers um who. were unrepentant. Um, but they also did. have they weren't just like this the. band of like theocratic. thugs that that they're often painted. as. There's just more nuance to it than. that. But yes, there were plenty who. were like, "No, we just need total. puritanical control over over this whole. colony.". >> Yeah. And, you know, as we'll see once. the the witch trials were conducted, you. know, I said that Salem collectively.

lost their mind. sort of true in a way. in that the a lot of people in power and. the decision makers did, but there were. still people even while it was going on. It wasn't like 100% of the town was. behind this. There were a lot of people. and I guess they were probably some of. those reasonable. >> people, you know, that you were talking. about that were like, you know, what. we're doing isn't right. I don't think. they really spoke up too vocally, >> but they were like, what is going on. here? This is getting out of hand and. kind of crazy. >> Yeah. I I mean it was such a dangerous. situation where it was one of those kind.

of fascist situations where people who. did dare to speak out against this and. say this is crazy, this is wrong or even. to like testify on behalf of somebody. who is accused. You were putting your. own life at risk like there was a. possibility you would be accused of. witchcraft and then tried and then. executed. It was that kind of a. situation even with people on the. outside being knowing that this is. wrong. It was just such a a a inevitable. machine that it was like people just.

stayed out of its way for a little. while. >> All right. I think that is a healthy. preamble. >> Okay. >> Foundation is laid. >> Mhm. >> I think we should take a break. >> Okay. >> And come back talk about those Mather. boys right after this. >> I concur. [music]. Stuff you should know. [music].

>> Stuff you should know. You should know. >> Okay, Chuck. So, you want to talk some. Mathers? >> I'll talk. as the beaver. [laughter]. >> He's still around, I believe, by the. way. He still looks like the. >> beaver. Did he? >> He's one of those guys that stayed the. same, huh?

>> Yeah. I think it doesn't help that he. dresses the same still, too. [laughter]. >> But he You can recognize him even in a. tux, I'm guessing. [gasps]. >> So, you can't talk about the Salem witch. trials without talking about the. Mathers. Uh, I'm talking about the elder. Mather, whose name was Increase. Love. these Puritan names. And uh the younger Mather, Cotton. Mather, uh he was the son son of a. Mather. So Increased Mather, he was like. you said, he was sort of the staunch. Puritan who was in a position of power.

He was working to establish a charter. that would, you know, basically give the. Puritans all the power. He was also a. believer. And you know, because I. mentioned the the European witch trials, like this is sort of the background that. allowed people like Increase Mather and. Cotton Mather to really legitimately. believe that demons were real and Satan. could overtake and possess someone and. that there were real witches. >> Mhm. I mean, that was just generally the.

puritanical worldview, but some people. were much more preoccupied with it than. others. And the Mathers were both deeply. preoccupied with this kind of thing. and. increased matter gets a lot of the blame. for this and and rightfully so. But. there's a lot of lesserk known people. who actually were way more villainous. during this and really took advantage of. this crazy situation and and really just. didn't didn't care about the the the. lives of innocent people, but he was he. was not good and that he helped fan the.

flames of this initially big time. >> That's right. Um, so should we I mean. we'll we'll get a little bit more into. the Mathers as we go. >> Uh, Cotton was certainly one of the. villains of the trials and they were. both writing books about supernatural. things. So this was all sort of the. foundation that was laid when the first. two people uh were accused in uh what. January of 1692. >> Yeah. So to to start there were two. girls ages 911. There was Betty Paris.

Elizabeth Paris was her name and Abigail. Williams. And they um basically started. barking and convulsing and just behaving. really bizarrely and strangely and would. not stop. And so, uh, Samuel Paris, who. was the head of the Salem Village. Church, it was actually a pretty. divisive figure apparently, um, he. brought in a doctor and the doctor. proclaimed this to bement,

that these girls were bewitched. And. that's ultimately what kicked the whole. thing off. And a lot of people have. tried to figure out like what initially. started that because just about. everybody who has a theory about this um. immediately converts to mass hysteria. >> But you still have that first that first. case of Abigail Williams andor Elizabeth. Paris to to explain. And apparently it. was like really prolonged stuff. They.

were vomiting. They were doing stuff. beyond just like behaving weirdly. they. were they seem to be physically. afflicted. That's another thing too that. I think the theories that say like these. it was all just a hoax that these girls. perpetrated that doesn't understand like. just how long these girls carried out. this stuff. >> And I think it it kind of ignores the. fact that. >> there are also like the Puritans weren't. dumb people. They were deeply religious. They believed in witches and Satan. having you know a hand on on things here.

on earth. But they also were very smart, very practical, and they would have seen. right through a couple of girls just. planning a hoax or carrying out a hoax. So there has to be something there at. the beginning that no one has ever fully. explained that kicked this whole thing. off. >> Yeah. I mean, it's hard not to become a. little obsessed with some sort of. biological root. I know urgot poisoning. has been mentioned. I saw encphilitis. >> Oh, I saw that one, too. That was. interesting. >> Yeah. and just some other like possible. reasons of like maybe something.

physically was wrong with them while. they also happen to be goofing around. with folk magic and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> Not [laughter] not a good combination to. like get sick while you're being a kid. and playing around, which is essentially. what they were doing. >> Yeah. But I mean, if you if you think. about the fact that the the adults were. like, "Okay, this is this is significant. enough that we're going to start looking. around for the witches." And the girls. started accusing people too. Um it does. seem like there was something going on.

with at least one of them. And then yes, it started to spread probably through. mass hysteria to other girls in the. village. >> It kind of make when you read the sort. of timeline account, I feel like if that. original doctor hadn't said the word. witch, it could have gone in a. completely different direction. >> Yeah. He he should have just been like, "It's um anti-NMD. and sephilitis, dummies, [laughter]. right? >> An autoimmune disease that we'll only. begin to grasp in the 2020s.". >> And everyone would say, "You're a witch,

>> right?" [laughter] He just used some. crazy words, doc. So, uh the doctor has has breathed the. word witch. Um the girls are like, um. they're like, "Hey, what's going on with. you?" And they said, "Uh you know, it's. Tatuba. it is u my father's uh slave to. tuba and it's her fault and she's a. witch and so they like you said they. started accusing and they started with. her. >> they started with her and then they very. quickly moved on to Sarah good and Sarah. Osborne and by doing that by accusing.

those two women or actually uh with. Tichiba as well all three of them. >> is it tichiba. >> I've always heard tichuba but I've heard. I think I've heard tatuba before too so. [laughter]. >> it sounds tichiba sounds more Right. >> Okay. So, so. by accusing those three women, they were. following um Abigail and Elizabeth were. following like a wellestablished. tradition of focusing on older women on.

the margins of society as witches. >> Right? >> Tituba was easy to accuse because she. was a foreigner. she was brought to um. the colony as a slave and she worked as. a slave in the Paris's house. Um so who. knows what she was into before you know. she came over to Massachusetts I guess. was the thinking of the Puritans but. then also Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne. they were like older women who were poor.

um lived on the fringes of society and. like that is who you accused of being a. witch typically. So, at first this witch. panic kind of followed the standard. witch accusations that had been um you. know spread around New England before. But but what made it different is that. it just started to pick up steam more. and more because more and more girls and. people around the um the the colony or. around the village, I'm sorry, started. to suffer bewitchment and started. accusing one another of of bewitching.

them. >> Yeah. If you were a person. for sure, a woman, but um a man or a. woman who like you said was about. middle-aged and you know, you were over. there kind of doing your own thing a. little bit and maybe just kept to. yourself, maybe you didn't like hanging. out in the village as much as the rest. of the villagers did. Uh you marched to. the beat of your own drum. You had a. target on your back basically, >> right? Yeah. And also apparently one of.

the things that they were well known for. these people who were accused of witches. would be like like they needed things. from their neighbors. So they would. extract them by threatening to curse. them. So they would actually use like. witchy threats. Um they were probably. also into folk magic. So there was like. it wasn't just completely baseless other. than the fact that like witches in that. kind of puritanical conception don't. exist. But but it wasn't just totally. out of the blue like these they they. still like if you a modern person saw.

the person that they were originally. that they traditionally accused of being. witches, you'd be like, "Oh my gosh, a. real life witch. There's one right. there." It would fit the bill for you. You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah, for sure. So, you know, these. accusations start flying around. They. start mounting. The jails start filling. up. Uh the conditions in the jail were. not good. It it got so crazy early on, and this is sort of the first part. this. before the like trials and hangings and. everything. Uh this is when you were. just like jailed and shackled and then.

charged for your shackles, I guess, like. a rental fee. >> Uh but they arrested a 4year-old. named Dorothy Good. Yeah. >> Um and she was eventually released, but. a four-year-old, >> like it's crazy, me as a father having. gone through life with a four-year-old. that you could accuse a four-year-old of. being anything other than a. four-year-old. >> Right. Exactly. But she wasn't. She was. held for months. I think she was. arrested in March and released in May.

And like this wasn't like a pleasant. >> December. >> Oh my goodness. Okay. So, she was there. for almost a year. Just under a year. For the intents and purposes of. exaggerating just how bad this was, she. was in there for basically a year. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Ozgood died in jail, right? >> She died in jail. Yeah. This is the. thing like these jails were like dirt. floors. You were chained like you're. saying like it was just it was a place. where like a a life could just be lost. way too easily. So to keep a. four-year-old in there for almost a year. is just horrible. There was a woman who.

gave birth in jail and they just left. her infant daughter in there with her. So the infant didn't survive. She died. in jail um just from being born in jail. as somebody who was accused of being. witches. And this was before the trials. had even started, Chuck. Like this was. just the initial phase of the panic. which was accusation accusation. accusation and then suddenly the jails. were overflowing with more than a. hundred people um who were accused of.

being witches and the court was totally. backed up when increased matter and the. new governor that he was coming back. with William Fipps uh who he'd gotten. appointed um showed back up in in Salem. and were like what is going on here And. they had a choice, Chuck. They could. have been like, "Have you all lost your. mind? What are you doing? Stop this. right now. Let all these people out.". They didn't go that route. They went the. exact opposite route. They at that. moment when they decided which way to.

go, they chose incorrectly, basically. >> Yeah. Um, and it was also a pretty bad. time. It was kind of the a uh what's the. word? Conflration. >> Man, you nailed it. [laughter]. >> And I sounded so confident, too. Yeah, >> confident. Uh it was a confilgration of a bunch of. things happening politically and. legally. It was a very bad time because. uh by the time the trials rolled around, they eventually got this new charter.

But previous to that, they were uh the. charter of the colony was temporarily. suspended, >> right? And a new charter did arrive in. May of 1692 uh in the hands of the elder. mother, but it was brand new and the. court didn't create laws. They didn't. have time to create any new laws. That. is so they basically said, "All right, we need to we got all these people in. jail. We need to quickly establish a. special court for this." and we'll call. it the the court of Oyer and Terminer to.

hear and determine and we're going to. get this these people out of jail or. kill them. So, they're no longer in. jail, but they're getting out one way or. another. >> Right. So, there there Ed helps us out. with this. We should say we failed to. mention so far, but he he points out. that um William Fipps, the new governor, possibly went along with this idea of. creating a new court to get rid of this. backlog of witchcraft accusations, to get these people out of jail, to get. this over and done with. And that may.

have happened actually, but he um was. very much focused on dealing with the. the constant threat that the colonists. lived under of um being attacked by. Native Americans. King Phillips War. King Phillip being the guy that punks. Tony Phil was named after that I got way. way wrong in our Groundhog episode. [laughter] Um that had just ended. There. was another war that included the French. and the Native Americans to the north. sweeping down uh all the way into. Massachusetts and staging raids. So they.

lived under like constant threat of. death which definitely didn't help their. mindset during the the witchcraft panic. But that's what Fipps was was worried. about. That's what he was working on. So. he threw the the um the job of seeing. over seeing this this court through to. his lieutenant governor, a guy named um. what was his name? William what? >> William Stoden. >> William Stoton. I mentioned like some of. the lesserk known people who were. actually villains. This guy was a bad.

bad man and he made a decision that. changed the course of everything. I. think Fipps's initial idea that this. would have just moved the backlogs out. and freed everybody from jail would have. come true had it not been for Stoen and. Stoton's radical decision to include. what's called spectral evidence. That. changed everything and that that is what. led to people being executed. >> Yeah. So before we get into spectral. evidence, I just wanted to point out. that William Stoton was such a bad guy,

>> they named a town after him. >> and they named a college dorm at Harvard. after him, >> I believe. Well, Increased Mather was. the Harvard president for a while, too. So. >> yeah, Stoton went to Harvard, but I. think it's still one of the dorms is. still Stoen and uh I think Stoen Mass is. most well known now for having an IKEA. [laughter]. >> Wow. >> I don't know. It all comes around. >> Claim to fame. Uh so yeah, spectral evidence. Let's. talk about this because this changed. everything. >> Um there were different kinds of.

evidence that would be accepted in these. courts. Uh one was the spectral which. we'll talk about. One was confession. >> Um two eyewitness testimonies. >> Mhm. >> Uh and then there were we won't get. really into all the tests, but there. were all kinds of different tests. including the you know, does she float? Can she swim? Mhm. >> Uh from MontiPython, the Holy Grail. I. think they were still doing some of. that. There was the witch's teit, uh. which was it's basically if they found a.

mole on a woman, uh they would call it a. witch's te, which was uh supposedly a. third nipple used to feed her animal. familiar. >> That's what my dad always told me my. moles were when I was growing up. >> Witches te. >> Yeah, he was dead serious, too. So there. were certain tests and all, but spectral. EV evidence was the big one because this. was basically you could kind of make up. anything and and you could be in court. and say as an accuser and say this. person is being uh has been uh possessed.

or or their possessor is in the. courtroom right now, your honor. The the. pos this ghost, this spectre is sitting. on your lap right now. You just can't. see it. And it's and it would freak. people out. There was nothing you could. really say to defend it because it was. made up to begin with. >> Right. >> Uh and supposedly Cotton Mather said it. should be used more sparingly. >> Like at the end of the day he was like. it's it's enough to indict but not to.

convict. >> Oh really? Was that cotton or increase? >> That was cotton supposedly. Okay. And. then in the end, I think they verified. that nobody was convicted solely on the. basis of spectral evidence. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Well, then my my. hypothesis is kind of out the window. that none of these people would have. been executed without it. >> Well, it was, you know, if if you need. two out of three things and that's one. of them, then you're right. You know, >> one of the other things, one of the more.

practical problems that spectral. evidence presented for somebody accused. of witchcraft was that it destroyed any. alibi you had. Like your your neighbor. could be like, "Well, no, he couldn't. have been bewitching this person. He was. out working with me in the fields all. day.". >> They could say, "No, no, it was a. spirit. He sent his spirit to bewitch. this poor person who's accusing him.". And then boop, there goes your alibi. So. there you like it was like you said, you. just can't defend yourself against that. kind of thing. Um, and that was like the. level of stuff that they were that they.

were that was how they were accusing. people. There was one guy I read about. uh Philip English who who will come up. again later. Um, he was accused of. witchcraft by somebody who said that uh. they got a nosebleleed while they were. discussing a lawsuit they had against. Philip English to with somebody else. So. that it must be that Philip English had. bewitched them. like this was the kind. of accusations that they were making. against one another and they were. holding up in court. That is something. that you cannot look past. It's so easy.

to look back 300 years and be like, "Yeah, this whole collective group lost. their mind." No, there were plenty of. people who did lose their mind, but the. people who were supposed to be in. charge, the people who were in a. position to put a stop to this actually. allowed it and in some cases fan the. flames of it even further. That was the. true breakdown at the Salem witchcraft. trials. The grown-ups did not step in. and and halt it before it got out of. hand. >> Yeah. Another thing that someone might.

do, uh, if you had a pet that you really. liked, not good. Um, they could say. that, "Well, no, no, no. They have an. animal familiar.". >> Uh, it could be anything. Like, take. Black Phillip from the Witch. I mean, that's taken kind of straight from this. time period. >> Sure. Uh, but if you had a pet that you. enjoyed hanging out with, they could. accuse you of having a familiar. If they. found a a a folk magic uh or folktale. book in your library, um, that could be. evidence. >> And that was pretty common, too. I mean,

like these people didn't have, you know, local hospitals to go to to to heal. themselves. or or anything that any like. you said with the nose bleed or. whatever, anything bad that happened to. you. If your crop failed or if one of. your cows died, you could say it was my. neighbor and they're a witch and they. put a hex on me. >> Right. So, they established, okay, we. can use spectral evidence and we're. going to use spectral evidence. And this. court of Oyer and Terminer um got it was. established. I think they held their.

first trial on June 2nd and they were. profoundly efficient at at convicting. and killing people. Um, Bridget Bishop. was the first person hanged and she was. hanged on June 10th, just over a week. after the first trials began. Um, and. that kicked off like this new phase. where this this idea to like clear the. the jails of the accused was actually. now diverting them to the gallows and a.

for being witches. We can't forget that. either like for being witches even. though witches in this conception don't. exist. >> Yeah. And I think it's that efficiency. and the speed that all this happened was. a big part of it because it was the. train was moving so fast that once. people the the more level-headed people. of the town realize what was going on. like wait a minute we're actually. hanging people for this um certain. people started to come forward and say. no no no I'm recanting my confession or.

let me stand up for someone's good. character but uh it happens so quickly. that you know before you know it there's. You know, a couple of dozen people have. died. >> Yeah. And like people got wrapped up in. it, too. Like there's the case of Giles. Corey, I believe. >> Oh, man. >> He testified against his wife. And then. later he recanted it. And after he. recanted it, the Puritans apparently um. viewed perjury so suspiciously that that. was enough to get him accused of.

witchcraft. And he ended up paying for. his life with which we'll talk about a. little more later. But like he testified. against his wife and to this day. historians are like we have no idea why. Giles Corey testified against his wife. He didn't seem to have a grudge. They. seem to have a fine marriage. Whatever. Like it just doesn't make sense. The. only way that you can explain that, at. least from my perspective, is that it. was like you said just this thing that. people got whipped up in and it just. happened so fast that it was just easy. to lose yourself into that degree. I.

mean, the whole thing happened over the. course of what, four to six months? >> Yeah, I think the first things were in. January, but yeah, the the first trials. were June 2nd, and they ultimately, I. think, stopped the following like. winter. So, yeah, I mean, it it was not. a very long prolonged thing, but it was. just like this weird orgy of of mind. loss and death, you know? >> Oh, man. It sounds like some kind of. album. Fiona Apple [laughter].

title. >> Uh the other weird thing about this was. that uh the social order was completely. knocked out of whack. Um the Puritans, if there's one thing they didn't like, it was hearing from children about. [snorts] anything. Uh kids were just. they were meant to work and to shut up. basically and do what they were told. >> and kind of like full stop. And you had. a situation here where children, young. girls were accusing these middle-aged.

men and women of of witchery and and it. worked. Like people listened to them and. people were hanged because these kids. were speaking up at a time when kids. were barely allowed to even, you know, have any agency or speak. >> Yeah. which is another thing that. perplexes historians because they're. like something happened like there was. something that was that this witch panic. fulfilled. Maybe it was to let off steam. from being constantly afraid of being. murdered by a Native American attack.

Maybe it was um living too close. proximity too far away from where you. called home. Like who knows? But there. was something about it that was worth. turning the social order on its head. And that was that was just one example. There are other examples of how the. social order just totally broke down. And that was in how who some of the. people who were accused and executed. were because it wasn't just the marginal. women who were your prototypical witches.

living, you know, on the outskirts of. society who were accused. That was just. at first. It started to become extended. to really surprising people like Rebecca. Nurse was maybe one of the most. upstanding. Puritan women that town, the colony had. to offer. And she was accused, tried and. executed as a witch. And that I think. really kind of opened a lot of people's. eyes in two ways. One, it was like, what. is going on here? This could not be the. case. And then to other people is like.

if Rebecca Nurse could be a witch then. anybody could be a witch. And I think. that was kind of the thread that the. witch trial followed. But it also is a. like a really good explainer about how. just completely the society broke down. for these handful of months that anybody. was was at risk of being murdered by. their fellow towns people for being a. witch. No matter what kind of background. you had. I'm picturing a I'm picturing a.

Puritan like the only Puritan that. actually went on vacation that summer. and they come back, you know, they leave. in early June, they come back in in late. September and they're like, "So, what's. been going on everybody?" [laughter]. >> Right. And then they they they get sight. of what's going on, they drop their. Mickey Mouse ears to the [laughter]. ground. >> Oh, boy. Uh, all right. Well, let's take. another break and we'll come back and. talk about sort of uh the finality of. this, how it ended, and uh a little bit. more about Giles Cory's crazy crazy.

story right after this. [music]. Stuff you should know. [music]. you should know. should know.

All right. So, in the end, um I don't. think they have the final final number. I I've seen 22. I've seen 25. >> Um 19 people were hanged. Uh Giles Cory, who we're going to talk about in a. minute, was pressed to death. >> uh via, you know, torture. Um five. people died in prison. I think it the. numbers sort of depend on what you count. as like uh like a fallout death and not. a direct death, >> right?

>> Like the one lady who couldn't repay. like she was exoner or I think she just. couldn't pay her debt to get out of jail. so she died in jail. >> That's such a sad story. Yeah. Lydia. Dustin, she was she outlived the um the. witch trials. Like they had ended a few. months before. Uh and she had actually. been personally exonerated and yet she. couldn't pay her um shackle fees. >> Yeah. >> So they just kept her in jail and she. ended up dying there in March of 1693. even though she was on accounts.

>> Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Because she. otherwise would not have been. >> killed or died had it not been being. placed in jail after being accused of a. witch. for sure. Uh but they did this in. mass hangings. It wasn't just like one. at a time. There was a hanging on July. 19th, August 19th, and September 27th. Uh after they died, they were stripped. and put in um a big mass grave. Um. supposedly there are stories that. families would come and get them out of. the mass grave at night, >> buried them in unknown uh probably on.

parts of their land. >> And uh they tried for many years to find. out exactly where these hangings took. place. and they ended up uh at a place. called Proctor's Ledge. And I don't I mean it there's a memorial. there and people go there and basically. they treat that as though that is. definitely the place, but I don't think. they have like hard hard evidence other. than just trying to like take eyewitness. accounts and place where they were. Right. >> Yeah. Supposedly, there was a study in.

2016 that where they took those. eyewitness accounts, took into account. what the people said they could or. couldn't see in like the background or. whatever, and then plotted them, >> right? >> And then figured out that the most of. these points were standing in around the. same place around um that ledge where. they think that yes, this happened. >> Yeah. But they never found like And then. underneath the ground they dug and they. found the gallows pole, >> right? No, they never found any physical. evidence. So, whatever.

>> So, the story of Giles Corey, if you. know The Crucible, you know it well. If. you've seen the movie, you know it. Um, he is the man that was was pressed to. death. Uh, he was crushed. Basically, pressing is when they would lay you. down. They would put boards on top of. you and then just start adding weight. over the course of time, uh, more and. more weight until you eventually die. Um, I had heard this story before. because supposedly Giles Cory said more. weight uh because he refused to uh he.

was standing mute and he refused to to. say whether he was guilty or innocent. Uh the one thing I did know is that. Giles Cory was 81 years old. >> Yeah, he was an old guy. He was like the. old guy from that um Metallica video. [laughter]. >> That's what I always imagined Giles Cory. to have looked like. >> Man, what a story though. One thing. standing mute would do would um allow. your estate to be passed on to your. heirs. Yeah. >> Rather than being convicted where that. wouldn't happen. But I saw that this.

wasn't the reasoning behind him standing. mute because most of his stuff had. already been taken and that he even. wrote down that he was standing mute to. protest the the sham proceedings. >> Yeah. So [clears throat]. yeah, and it sounds like just the way. he's been um kind of lionized by history. that that was his motivation for sure. Yeah, >> but you said something about how most of. his stuff had been taken. There's. another villain in all this beyond. Stalton and the Mathers. Um there was a. guy named George Corwin and he was the.

sheriff of Essex County, which is where. um this witch panic took place. Um and. he he was basically taking advantage of. the fact that a lot of people were. suddenly way more vulnerable than they. had been the year before, few months. before. And so when he would arrest them. and take them, he would also take. possession of their property officially, their stuff, their land, all that. And. he and his deputies would divvy it up. So he had every incentive to arrest as.

many people as possible and throw him in. jail. And he did that. And he took a lot. of people's land. Uh, and I guess he. took Giles Cory's land as well. And. Giles Corey cursed the town and the. sheriff as he died. And supposedly um. George Cor actually I shouldn't say. supposedly George Corwin definitely did. die less than three years later at age. 30 of a heart attack. And there's a. local legend that um every Essex Essex. County Sheriff from Corwin onward um e. either died or resigned while in office.

because of a heart condition. I didn't. have time to go look through the records. of Essex County Sheriffs, but I thought. that was a pretty interesting local. legend. But. >> so this dude was in his 20s when he was. doing this. >> Yeah, he was in his in his mid to late. 20s and he was one of the worst. [clears throat] of the worst. And so. there's one more story about when he. died that guy Philip English that I. mentioned before um who was accused. because of the guy getting the nose. bleed. He was a very very wealthy. merchant in Salem town and Corwin took.

his stuff like his land, a lot of his. ships um just took a lot of his stuff. while um English was on the run evading. capture. And when English came back. after the uh the Salem witch trials were. over and found what Corwin had done, he. um he tried to get his money back from. Corwin. He tried to get his money, his. land, his ships, all that stuff. And. Corwin wouldn't give it to him. Well, Corwin dies of a heart attack and um. Philip English placed a lean basically.

on this guy's body and said, "You're not. burying him until I get paid back.". >> Geez. >> The family was like, "We're not. listening to you. We're going to go bury. him." So, Philip English hired a bunch. of guys and they went out and stopped. the funeral procession, took possession. of the body and held it hostage until. Corwin's family paid Philip English back. for what Corwin had taken from, had. confiscated from him, and then Philip. English gave them the body to bury. Wow, [laughter]. >> that nuts. >> Not a nice guy. >> Who? Philip English.

>> No, no, no. Coral. >> Okay. Yeah, I totally I was going to say. I totally side with Philip English on. that one. >> Um All right. So, Cory dies and the sort. of the the long and short of his death. was that it it was sort of a final. straw. And this is when uh Fipps comes. back in and says, "You know what? Things. are getting really out of hand." uh. increased matter says, "Yeah, this. spectral evidence thing is gotten way. out of hand and it's probably not real.". And people started to um sort of stand.

up more and more and it was clear that. Governor Fipps had to kind of halt. things. Um he said he did it under the. context of, you know, this is a a. contravention of English law. We can't. do this. I'm dissolving the the court of. Oyer and Terminer and I'm going to. create a new court where we can't use. spectral evidence. And what do you know? In January and February of 1693, there. were dozens of people released. Um, no. grand juries weren't indicting people.

Uh, they were found not guilty. Uh, he. pardoned some and by the end of May that. next year, the jails had no more u quote. unquote witches. >> Right? because they found when you take. away the spectral evidence, what you. have for the most part is personal. grudges, land disputes, land grabs, people just trying to to um take. advantage of this situation to get back. at somebody they don't like and haven't. liked for a really long time. And that. was. >> what a weird weird scary time.

>> It was very scary. And I can't imagine. like living during that time. Actually, it's not true. I can't imagine it. Um. but it was just basically another. example of like a time when a group of. people became fascists together and. people died as a result. >> Yeah. And that you know the term witch. hunt is still used. Um that the crucible. was written because of McCarthyism. >> Uh it's been thrown around a lot in. recent years. Maybe not as accurately. but it's still a term for that reason.

>> Yep. Um, I've got one little nice button. to put on the end of this, Chuck. There. was at least one guy who was a judge in. the court of lawyer interpreter named. Samuel Su. And within a year or two. after the witch trials, he was standing. in front of the Boston congregation of. Puritans having a petition read um by. the the local reverend there asking for. their forgiveness and admitting that. this was a huge huge mistake and he.

regretted participating in it. and would. they forgive him? Um, and I believe they. did. So, the whole thing ended well. [laughter]. You got anything else? >> I got nothing else. >> Man, if you want to go down a rabbit. hole, start researching the Salem. Witchcraft Trials. You could do a lot. worse than going to the historic. present, the New England Historical. Society, and the history of. Massachusetts.org. Or just hit Ed Grabinowski up. He'll. tell you all about it. Uh, >> go to Salem. >> Yeah, you could do that, too. walk.

around [music] and they're they're. trying to take your money in all kinds. of ways. >> Yeah. And Essex County, Mass is one. [music] of the most beautiful places on. Earth, if you ask me. >> Sure. >> Um, okay. Well, since I said that, it's. time for listener mail. Uh, I'm going to call this Cool Kid. Like to read emails from the Cool Kids. Uh, hey guys, my dad introduced me to. your show when I was barely a teenager, and I've been listening ever since. In. that time, my family has gone through a. lot of changes, and my dad and I haven't. always been on the best terms. I wanted.

to reach out and let you know that Stuff. You Should Know is the only thing that. we have consistently been able to talk. about when we reconnect after being. apart. We can go months without seeing. each other, and I can just ask if you. listen to your latest episode to have. something to talk about. >> That's cool. >> It help keeps things light-hearted, [music]. and it's something we feel uh like it's. just for the two of us. Hope we can see. you live in Austin soon. Uh, furthermore, this is uh mostly for. Chuck. You were so much like my dad, it's actually freaky sometimes. We. always make jokes that you two would be.

best friends if you went [music] in real. life. Your voices even sound a little. bit the same. I'll be honest, sometimes. it's comforting to listen to y'all when. I miss my dad. Oh. >> Uh, I've been meaning to send this email. for a while just to tell you guys how. much you mean to me and my family. Thanks for being there for us. Also, I. don't know if my dad listens to the end. of the episodes or just the factual. [music] content. >> We'll find out. But if he's listening. this far in, tell him I said hi. Warm. regards, CJ Kerbo. And uh it says, "If we come to Austin, they treat us to dinner at their.

favorite fried catfish seafood. restaurant.". >> Nice. Very nice. Um that was very nice, CJ. What a great email. And thank you. very much for the invite. We probably. will be in Austin again sometime. [music]. >> It was. And CJ, you should know that we. cut it out, but I accidentally said. fried cat food. >> It was hilarious. >> And Josh got a good laugh out of it. >> Yeah. So, thanks for that, too. >> Yeah, you're welcome. >> If you want to be like CJ and write a. very nice email, we want to hear it. You. can send it to us at stuffpodcast@. iheartradio.com.

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