Selects: Sacagawea: Impressive Teen | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, it's me Josh. And for. this week's select, I've chosen our 2021. episode on Sakoa, whose name I learned. to pronounce correctly after 45 years on. the planet in this very episode. She's. one of those figures in American history. who's been morphed into more of a folk. legend than a real life person. And I. think that's because we round out the. contours of historic people so we can. teach young kids about them. and that. after a while that kittified version is. all they become in everyone's mind. So.

like anyone there's a lot more to. Sakuggoa than the average person. realizes. But what's most amazing is. that we actually know a lot of that. stuff about her. It's amazing because. not only was she a Native American. living at the beginning of the 19th. century on the Great Plains, but she was. a teenager and a girl and yet we know a. bunch about her. And what we know adds. up to a pretty great person. That's why. we named this episode Impressive Teen. Hope you're impressed by her, too.

Welcome to [music] Stuff You Should. Know, a production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. over there, and this is Stuff You Should. Know. And I can't help but feel that I'm. being subtweeted right now. [music]. >> I don't know what that means. >> Oh, it's where you talk about somebody. without directly talking about them. You.

just kind of maybe [music] talk about. their behavior or how you disapprove of. something that they did, but you don't. directly say this person did this and I. don't like it. You know, I uh one time I don't know all. this lingo, >> okay, >> with the Twitter because I was never on. it. And I was emailing with Jonathan. Coloulton, musician Jonathan Colton, >> about coming on Movie Crush. And I can't. remember what I said, but. >> he said something something. Don't at. me. [snorts]. >> And I didn't know what that meant. And I. was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm. not sure what I did. Uh [laughter] I.

don't know. Like I apologize if I did. something wrong." And I think he was. kind of like, "Who is this idiot? [laughter]. Hudsman likes this guy. >> And I think don't I I mean, doesn't that. just mean you're tagging someone on. Twitter or something? >> Yeah. But usually it means like you're. you're telling them that they got. something wrong or you disagree with. what they said or they should be ashamed. of what they said. It's usually a. hostile thing that you're adding. somebody or you're you're Yeah. They. don't they're. >> they have made their point and they.

don't want to hear any feedback from you. about it. That's what. >> that's kind of what I took from it. And. you have to like kind of snap a few. times when you say it. >> I'm just really so thankful still that I. never joined Twitter. It just that's the. last thing I need. I'm already on. Facebook which is terrible. I I've been. enjoying Instagram. I have to say that. seems like a a pretty nice crowd. >> Totally different place. >> Yeah. But you know, we're talking about. all this because we're talking about. Sakagawea. >> Yes, we are. Who um.

>> naturally. >> Yeah, naturally. who would probably. issue both uh Instagram and Twitter. because she seems like a pretty solid. human being. >> She'd be like, "Don't at me.". >> That's right. So, um just to just to get. this done out of the gate, uh again, I. thought that her name was pronounced. Saka Jia. I am not like in the minority. in the United States at least because. that's how we were raised to say her. name. Fortunately, we have such things. as historians and people who listen to.

Native Americans who have been told over. the years, no, it's not Saka Joa, it's. Sakawaga, right? Is one pronounce. pronunciation of it, but that it's not. J, it's G. Um, and we've started to kind. of pronounce her name correctly. You say. it way better than me, so why don't you. take it? >> Well, I mean I, and gosh, this is the. third time now we're on this. I've seen. different things from Sakagawei to. Sakagawea. >> I think in Clark's journal uh William.

Clark that is of Louiswis and Clark fame. >> spelled it s ah k ah emp emphasis on. that g a ra. So sakagarwe. >> or sakagawea. >> but then the shashon. which uh is an Native American tribe. that uh well we'll we'll get to the. importance there. Um they say actually. it is s a c a j a wa.

>> and it means boat pusher [clears throat]. >> not the hata language of birdwoman. >> So there is some debate. >> Yeah. Um one thing that I did see is. that Lewis and Clark um and they factor. in this because Saka Goa was the um the. main guide and interpreter uh as they. pushed further westward. um she or they. they actually tried to spell every. Indian or Native American word that they. encountered phonetically as best they.

could. They were terrible spellers even. of English words. >> I mean, just like barely literate, it. seemed like, but they tried their best. Yeah, it's really bad. Um, but they they. tried to they tried to spell every every. word that they they they found. phonetically. And I think Saka Goa's. name appears 17 different times in both. of their journals. And not once do they. spell that third syllable G with a J.

sound with a J. It's always a G. >> And they think that it was a hard G. So. that it's Saka Goa, not Saka Jawia. So. they said it's definitely GIF and not. GIF, >> right? [laughter] Which it is definitely. GIF as we all know. [snorts]. >> Uh so if you listen to the Louiswis and. Clark episode, was it a two-parter? I. feel like it was. >> It was not. >> It was not. Wow. >> You're thinking of the evil conval. episode. [laughter]. >> God, it's so embarrassing. >> Uh you always bring that up to [snorts]. shame me. I think.

>> it shames both of us and Jerry to a. certain extent as well for letting that. she could have stepped in like for God's. sakes, what are you doing? Totally. consolidate, man. [laughter]. So, uh, a great episode though. Uh, I. know in that episode we talked a bit. obviously about Chicago Way and Ken. Burns and his great documentary about. the, uh, core of discovery. But she was. born uh she had a you know she lived a. short life and there is a little. controversy on how long she did live.

which we'll get to at the end. >> But she was born in either 1788 or '89. as a member of the uh Lim Limhy is what. I'm going to say. >> Okay. >> Lhi ban of the Shashon tribe which we. spoke about a minute ago. >> Is it Shashon or Shosonyi? >> Shosonyi. Is it Shashony? That's what. I've always heard, but then again, I. always heard it was Saka Ja, too. >> I know. >> I believe it's Shony. >> She grew up though in a very, I imagine, lovely, lovely part of the country in.

what is now Idaho, uh, in the Salmon. River region. [snorts]. >> Yes. Um, so she was actually a member of. a specific band of the Lemi Shosonyi. Um, the salmon eaters is what they were. called. Um, and she she grew up in that. that part of Idaho. I guess it was. around the um uh the Bitterroot. Mountains near the Continental Divide. and the Bitterroots are part of the. Rockies. But yeah, it just sounds. >> absolutely gorgeous. Um, the Shosonyi.

tribe was uh enemies to the Hata who you. mentioned earlier. And the reason that. they say that Sakoa means birdwoman is. because Saka Goea became an involuntary. member of the Hadata tribe when she was. around 12 years old. Um, I didn't get if. she was out on a buffalo hunt or if the. Hadata happened to be out on a buffalo. hunt and came across her. Did you. understand that? >> I'm not sure. Um, I kind of just in my.

mind thought that they were out, but I. guess it doesn't really matter cuz. either way she was kidnapped. >> Mhm. >> And settled uh with them near what is. now Bismar, North Dakota. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and here's where her life took a uh. or I guess that event actually took her. life in a very different direction. >> Uh, and that that was a trading center, an international trading center. So, people from all over the world would. kind of stop through there to trade. their wares. and she was um essentially.

uh I mean it's hard to not say kidnapped. again um a French Canadian fur trader. Tus Charbano um. >> beautiful. >> took her as property uh he called her. his wife but we can't you know now. through today's lens we've gotten a lot. better about not glossing over that. stuff right. >> she was property uh to him she was a. teenager I think like 16 or 17. >> not I think she was actually 15. >> Oh, was she? >> Uh, and she was uh about two decades.

younger than him. >> And there's no other way to say it other. than she was property. And part of being. property was that she was uh raped by. Charbano. >> Yeah. Like there's there's um there's no. way you can put it that that like she. didn't have any say in the matter of. whether they had sex. So like it's just. that's rape no matter what. Um, but. yeah, over the over the years, like. she's always been referred to as one of. his wives because I guess Americans.

didn't want to kind of confront that. stuff, you know, >> right? So she ends up um living among. the Hatza and as um Charbano's. wife/propy. um because Charbano being a fur trader. and the Hadata um settlement that they. lived at um being this kind of. international trading post, he had kind. of adopted like a the hadata way of. living himself. Um he just being a fur.

trader he had to to be able to handle. himself out in the elements. Um so I. think it kind of it was his speed from. what I gathered for the rest of his life. he just basically lived in a style. similar to Native Americans. Um, so she. aside from being away from her native. tribe, she lived, you know, probably. fairly. in a fairly cosmopolitan manner compared. to how she would have had she never been.

kidnapped from the the Lehey band of. Shosonies. Um, which is kind of sad. But. there's one thing that should be said. There's a there's documentary opinion. that she was um she was not unhappy. living on this kind of um this border. land between the two cultures. like she. she seemed to feel somewhat comfortable. um living among you know the the.

colonizers way of life um on the. frontier just as much as she did living. among the Shosonyi. >> Yeah. And we should also point out that. a lot of this is very little is. recorded. a lot of speculative. um because you know there's remarkable. well I guess not remarkable cuz it was. 1803 but um very little actual recorded. information about her life. >> but it's remarkable how much there is. for the the typical teenage Native.

American girl at the time. >> um like the the fact that there's. anything recorded about her says a is a. kind of a huge testimony to her and her. personality. >> No, absolutely. Um, so 1803 is when uh. Charbano uh takes control of her life. 1803 is also when Thomas Jefferson said, "Hey, we got this uh big tract of land. Really sweet deal called the Louisiana.

Purchase. 828,000. square miles of land stretching from the. Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico, from the Mississippi to Colorado. and we. need to go see what's out there because. uh white people have never explored this. territory. Um I want to find a Northwest. Passage which was eventually found. They. were looking in the wrong place but um. that's what they were sort of after but. they were after more. Jefferson really. wanted to know what was out there the. landscape. He wanted maps. He wanted to.

know about the uh Native American. tribes. He wanted to know about the the. plant life and the animal life and just. like go uh Merryweather Lewis out there. and record everything you can. >> Yeah. And Mary Merryweather Lewis was um. Jefferson's personal secretary and Lewis. um selected um what was Clark's first. name? Josh. >> Billy William. >> William Clark. Billy Clark um as who had. been his uh captain in um the army as.

the leader of the expedition. He found. him to be an able leader and said, "Hey, you want to come lead this super high. prestige um expedition for the president. that the entire nation's going to be. watching?" And Clark said, "Sure, let's. do it." So Lewis and Clark set out um on. this expedition. And they actually. traveled, I think, 1,600 miles before. they ended up um in at that uh Hatza. settlement um which is about where they.

really started to hit the the frontier. from what I understand. >> All right, that sounds like a great. turning point to take a break. >> Okay, >> so we'll be back right after this and uh. pick up with the meeting of Lucen Clark. and Sakaga. [music]. Stuff you should know. [music] Josh and. Shark. Stuff you should know. [music].

[music]. >> Okay, Chuck. So, we've reached what is. now today Bismar, North Dakota at the. South Dakota. South Dakota. You sure? I think so. >> No, it's it's Yeah, it's Bismar, North. Dakota. >> Are there two? >> I was going to say it it almost. literally doesn't matter. >> We're going to get crushed for this. >> It is. No, it's definitely Bismar, North.

Dakota. >> Okay, then there that was a misprint. then in the uh. >> I'll tell you what, get this. I've got. this um machine called a computer. >> Are you actually going to look it up? >> Yeah, I'm going to look it up. I'm going. to do a favor for the people of Bismar. for once. Bismar, North Dakota. >> I think it's North Dakota. >> It is. >> That's weird because I think this is. from house to work because I got South. Dakota written in there. >> Oh boy. >> All right. >> We'll have to send an email.

>> Not going to I'm going to add them. >> Yeah, [laughter]. that don't you know that's the tagline. of how stuff works? Don't add us. >> That's right. So, apologies to all the. people in the both Dakotas. All three. Dakotas. We meant nothing by it. And. we're going to do a live show there one. day to make up for it. >> Are we? >> Sure, why not? >> Um, I'll tell you later. >> Okay. [laughter]. [snorts]. All right. Where are we? It's November. 2nd, 1804,

>> when they finally land and they meet up. with Chicagoa, who is uh 6 months. pregnant at this point. And Charbano is. I get the impression that he's a bit of. a. [sighs and gasps]. not a grifter ma maybe but sort of an. opportunist. [sighs and gasps]. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so for sure. I mean like. he's a fur trader for Pete's sake. Like. you got to be. >> Well, true. >> You got to be a little like that that. includes not just survival in the woods.

and killing animals, but also having to, you know, get the highest price you can. for your pelts. though I'm guessing. there's a bit of used car salesman to. Charbano for sure. He was not exactly he. was not welll liked by Louiswis and. Clark. I don't know that he was hated or. despised, but I get the impression from. reading historians interpretations of. their their journal entries about. Charbano was that he was kind of a cross. between um. [laughter].

Chris Farley, >> okay, >> and. Gollum maybe. [laughter]. >> I can't wait to see that Photoshop. [gasps] Oh goodness. Yeah, I know who's. going to take care of that for us. >> So, just this idea that this guy was not. competent necessarily and was maybe a. little bit evil. Um, and that's that's, you know, all you need to know about. Charbano. I also get the impression, Chuck, that there was a there was a you. know, we'll talk about later, but there. was Saka Goa was plucked from historic.

obscurity and really kind of raised up. on this pedestal and I think rightly so. But there was a sport that developed. alongside of that where you could very. easily raise Saka Goa up by contrasting. her to her goodfor-no [clears throat]. slaveholding. quote husband. um and showing how just just terrible he. was at everything. It made her look all. them all the much better. So, I think. there's a sport to it. There's a kind of.

a a long history of putting down. Charbano. Um but I think that it's kind. of rooted in fact from what I. understand. >> Yeah. So, at any rate, he comes along. and he's like, "Hey, you guys really. need to bring me along and uh and my. wife uh slashpropy here. Um, I speak. Hatza and French and they're like, "We. don't really need that." But I see that. Skagway speaks Shosonyi and we really. need to learn that because at a certain.

point we're going to need to talk to. them to get some horses. Uh, and since. we can't hire a woman because it's 1803, we have to actually hire the husband to. get her to come along. I guess you both. can come. >> Yeah. So, like we got to explain why um. Chicagoa being Shosonyi was really. important and it was like you said those. horses and somehow I'm not exactly sure. how they already knew this because these. are the first um Americans to chart a. course westward but they knew that the.

um the Missouri River and the Columbia. River was um. was separated by mountains, the Rocky. Mountains, the Bitterroot Mountains to. be specific. and that since they were. taking to the river, they were going to. need to get from one river to the other. and that the Shosonyi Indians happened. to live exactly where they needed um or. where they needed to pass through, where. they needed the most help, where they. needed horses. And so having a Shosonyi.

along to help broker a deal would be. incredibly useful. So useful in fact. that the arrangement was going to be. that when they finally met up with the. Shosonyi um tribe in this area where. they needed the horses the most. Um. Sakagawea was going to speak to the. Shoson and then she was going to. translate what the Shoson said into. Hadata to um Charbano. >> Yeah. Charbano is going to translate. from um Hata into French for a.

French-speaking member of the core of. discovery who would then translate from. French into English for Lewis and Clark. That's how. >> Sharon didn't even speak English. >> No, he spoke Hadata in French. So, >> okay. I thought that meant in addition. to English. >> No, he uh so he did he did play a role. that was important. He was going to. translate from hadata into French. Um, it would have been way better if uh he. had spoken English, but it Yeah, it just.

meant another person in the chain. Everything came out purple monkey. dishwasher at the end. [laughter]. So, uh, one thing we failed to mention, I think, which is just remarkable is. that, um, a few a couple of months. before they leave together, uh, Chicagoa. has her son Jean. >> Baptiste, >> um, known as Baptiste. Mhm. >> And so, and I know we talked about this. in Louiswis and Clark, but I think I. didn't have a kid at the time. It's just. astounding to me now that I've had a.

two-month old baby to to take and like. keeping that baby alive and all the. comforts of, you know, modern day. America. >> to take a baby like that on a voyage. like this. >> is astounding. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> It's really remarkable. >> Yeah. And [clears throat] I mean like if. you look at all of the um memorials to. Chicagoa. um I don't think there's one out there. that doesn't also show Baptiste as well. >> Of course not. >> Um not just because he was an adopted.

honorary member of the core of discovery. basically a mascot. Sure. Um but also. because it just goes to point out just. how astounding what his mom did. >> um was. You know, I think uh when when. Chicago was um put on the. >> the dollar coin in the United States in. 2000, um Hillary Clinton famously. referred to her as the original working. mom. >> Wow. That's that's pretty cool.

designation. >> I thought so, too. So yeah, I think it's. great to to just that that she's. remembered as, you know, doing all this. with a a baby strapped to her back the. whole time, >> right? So um that's their plan. They. plan to get there, send her out to talk. to the uh Shosonyi tribe to get these uh. horses, but uh which was a good plan, but it was even way better. It worked. out like almost like it had been written. in a movie script or something. >> because I think it is uh Lewis shows up.

first and has contact with uh an older. woman of the tribe and then about 60. Shosonyi on horseback ride up and. they're like you seem like a decent guy. you're friendly let's all make this work. out. Then Park's group shows up about a. day later with Chicago Way [snorts] and. they're like, "Oh my god, it's you. You. were the one that was kidnapped and. taken away so many years ago.". >> And then Chief Kameha rides up and it's.

>> Sak Chicago Way's brother. >> Yeah. So, not only do they get to have. this reunion, but um Lewis and Clark are. like, "Yes, we're going to get such a. good deal on these horses.". >> Yeah. the the her the chief is her. brother. Like this is perfect. But you. know what that stuck out to me as Chuck? Um that meant that Chicago way probably. would have met Lewis and Clark even if. she had never been kidnapped. >> Uh yeah, maybe so.

>> Isn't that really crazy to think like. that one way or another she was going to. probably meet Louiswis and Clark. >> even even with her life diverging that. radically from its, >> you know, original projected path. Yeah. And what it really did was um I mean she. was already proving to be useful in that. >> she could identify berries and things. that you could eat and plants that you. could use as medicine and kind of acted. as the um the navigator in a lot of. cases like no we need to go this way.

I've been here before. This is where I. grew up. >> Yeah. There's a huge huge rock called. Beaverhead Rock that she um famously. recognized that you can go visit and. stand in the place basically where she. showed Louiswis and Clark like look my. my people are going to be right around. here. I recognize this place. >> Yeah. So they've already got all this. respect for her up until that point and. then she has such an in with the. Shosonyi. Uh like you said they get I'm. sure a really good deal on the horses. and not only that but they get help. they get like they kind of partner up. with them to help them along which is a.

really big deal. >> Yeah. Because Lewis and Clark's. expedition had um somewhere in the. neighborhood of 40 people involved. Huge. boats, several huge boats, lots of. equipment, lots of instruments. And some. people say, well, like if they needed. horses so bad, why didn't they bring the. horses? Well, because they traveled by. water. They really needed horses really, really badly. But just for this one. specific part of the trip in between the. Missouri and the Columbia River, Thomas. Jefferson very famous famously called it.

a dilly of a pickle that they had run. into. Um but the the fact that they were. able to get the horses from the Shony um. it just basically checked this enormous. box that the whole expedition um was. predicated on. They just couldn't they. could not have completed their mission. without this. And um Saka Goa basically. brokered that, made sure that box got. checked. And there's one other thing. that stands out about her too that that. gets overlooked that I saw in a few.

places. Um Charbano had another wife who was. Shosonyi. And if they needed a Shosonyi. speaker who was a who was, you know, with Charbano, who came with Charbano, um they could have very easily gone with. Otterwoman, the the other the other um I. guess victim of Charbono. Um and they. didn't. They went with Sakawa, who. knowing full well that she came with an. infant now, like there was going to be. an infant even though with Otterwoman.

there wouldn't have been. So clearly. Sakaguaya is like putting out the right. kind of vibes. is saying like, "I'm. extraordinarily competent. You should. probably pick me even though if you pick. me, I'm going to be bringing a newborn. baby along on this frontier trek." Um, I. think that says a lot about the kind of. um I guess charisma or competence or. whatever she was putting out that that. that Lewis and Clark were like, "Yes, I. think she would be the better of the. two.".

>> Yeah. Because you don't want a two-month. old baby along. No, but if you're. >> they're cute, but nah. >> But if you say, "Okay, we'll have a. two-month baby along." Like, that says a. lot about the the mom that's carrying. the baby around and what her her. abilities are, I think. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, she also proved. her worth when and I can't remember if. we I think we might have talked about. this. >> when uh there was a one of their sailing. vessels almost capsized. >> Yeah. >> Uh when a big squall hit it, uh. apparently Charbano was navigating. He.

panicked under pressure and it was. Chicago who was calm and uh said, "You. know what? We need to get these papers. together. We need to get the books that. we've been writing in uh all these. navigational instruments and medicines. and provisions and other stuff. We need. to get it all together and take care of. it." And oh, also this baby. >> uh and basically saved uh that. situation. And Charbano was just, you. know, >> he was like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Oh. my god. Oh my god. >> Sacra blue. Sakura Blue.

>> That's [laughter] right. Yeah. So, yeah, that was um that's one of the big. stories that's told about Saka Goa. So. much so, I mean um that that either. Lewis or Clark wrote about it and. basically was like um this this Saka Goa. is an amazing person. Like she's she's. doing stuff that other members of the. core are not doing. I mean there is I. think at least 12 members of the core of. discovery who aren't mentioned by name. in either of the journals of Louiswis. and Clark throughout the e expedition.

They did work they did their their job. obviously um but they didn't get. mentioned because they they weren't. doing stuff like Saka Goa was. And I. think they um the fact that she's. mentioned multiple times with kind of um. >> frequently. discussing like just their impress how. impressed they were with her. That says. a lot as well. Um. >> yeah, I mean they named because of that. sailing incident, they named a branch of. the Missouri River after her. >> Yeah. >> And I think Clark um was the one who.

really grew closer to her. >> Uh it's really hard to get a read on. exactly what the nature of their. relationship was. It seems just like. maybe a mentor. type of relationship and that he kind of. took her under his wing and took these. long walks with her. Um, I don't think there's anything unoured. about it is kind of what I'm getting at. >> I don't have that impression either, and. I have not run across a historian that's. asserted that there was something.

unoured about it either. The way I close. the way Yeah, they were. The way I took. it was um like an adopted little sister. kind of thing. >> Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it, too. >> I also don't think Charbano would have. stood for that. I think that would have. been not okay with him because he was. the kind of guy who'd be like, "That's. my property, you know?". >> Right. Well, of course. >> So, I Yeah, I don't have that. impression, but yeah, I thought the same. thing, you know, as well. Uh and in fact. they thought so much of her especially.

Clark that and this is a really telling. thing is that they gave when they. reached the uh Pacific coast there was a. vote on whether or not to stay there for. the winter or not and they actually let. her vote which in the early 1800s. >> to let a woman have a vote like that. >> uh was remarkable. >> Yeah. So, um, when they when they. decided to stay, that vote, um, led to. them staying in what's now Atoria, Oregon, they build a a winter quarters.

called Fort Klatsup, uh, after a. friendly tribe nearby. And. >> Fort Katsup, >> that's what I thought, too. But it's. it's close. There's a L in there. Um, yeah, Clatsup. >> Uh, but the the Clatsup people said, uh, hey, get this. There's a beached whale. You got to see this thing. It's. enormous. And so I think Lewis was like, "Okay, we're going to go check this out. You guys stay here." And Saka Goa, I. know we talked about this in the. Louiswis and Clark episode. Sak Goa. said, "Look, man, [snorts].

>> I have walked a long ways and helped you. guys out." And the idea that you're not. going to let me see the ocean. I've. never seen any ocean. You're not going. to let me see the ocean. And this giant. whale that's been beached, come on. >> And so Lewis relented very famously and. was like, "Okay, come along." So, Saka. Goa kind of she put her foot down. basically and said, "No, I'm I'm going. to see this. Um, that would be unusually. cruel not to let me." So, she went and. saw this this giant whale. She saw the. ocean for the first time. I mean, that's.

a pretty big I've never seen a beached. whale. Imagine seeing a beached whale. The first time you see the ocean, too, you know. >> Yeah. I remember when I uh as a young. kid when I we showed my grandmother the. ocean for the first time and she was in. her. uh gez she was probably in her 70s. She. lived to be a hundred. >> Wow. >> So she had to be in her mid7s when we. took her to the ocean. >> Yeah. >> And we we walked her out there and she. walked out on the beach. I'll never. forget it. And said, "Woo, it's big.".

[laughter]. >> That's cute. >> And that was about it. She didn't hang. out for long. >> She's like, "Um, I'm good. This was. enough.". >> Yeah. Yeah. And there was no whale to. poke with a stick. >> So, um, you want. >> I'm kidding, by the way. You should. never do that. >> Poke a whale with a stick. >> Yeah, I was I was making a joke. That. wasn't nice. >> I think everybody knew that, Chuck. >> Yeah, you try and get that whale back in. the water if you can. >> Not with the stick, though. >> Not with the stick. >> Um, you want to take our second break? >> Yeah. We'll talk about how this uh all. wrapped up and what happened to her. afterward right after this.

[music]. >> Stuff you should know. Josh and Sh. Woo! [music]. Stuff you should know. [music]. Okay. So, uh, they made it to the. Pacific. They overwintered there in I. think 1805, 1806. And then they started.

to make their way back. And um they. actually went right back to the same um. Hata settlement that international. trading post outside of Bismar, North. Dakota um where they picked up Charbano. and Sakugoa and they said, "Hey, thanks. a lot. We'll see you guys later." And. everywhere I saw, um, Charbano was paid. something like $500.33.

for his efforts and Sak Goa was not paid. anything. Um, although I saw also in. this article that she was paid as well. Do you can do you have any idea? >> Yeah, you know, I was confused too. Everywhere else I looked said that she. did not get direct payment. >> Which article said that she did? >> I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be. right. Um or maybe they just sort of. said well since her captor/husband. was paid then sort of means she was I'm.

not sure but I saw nowhere else that. said that she was actually paid. independently. >> and I mean that would make the most. sense you know although after that that. expedition it's I could I would also not. be surprised if she was paid directly. even though it bucked you know. convention. Yeah, he got paid $500 and. 320 acres of land, which was pretty. good. And it's like I tried to do a. inflation comp, >> but it's they don't even have anything. I think it said like when you when you.

go that far back, you can't even compare. it to today's currency. >> West gave me a um an estimate of about. nine grand. Oh, see I saw I saw that too, but I. didn't see that as a uh. as a direct inflation calculator. More. like the goods that you could have. bought back then. >> Uhhuh. No, they said 9 grand. >> No, I saw that. It just didn't seem like. a one to one to me. >> Oh, I see. Um, even still, it seems like.

a really I would I would imagine $500. back then would be like 10 trillion. today, you know? Yeah, it would seem it would seem to be. the case. It's it's a little weird, but. yeah, because I mean like a a journey of. thousands of miles um at the behest of. the president of the United States. getting paid nine grand seems like it. just seems like you would get more than. that. I don't know. But then again, he's. a fur trapper who only speaks Sata in.

French. So, who knows? I think what. confused me is like if you enter $500 a. h 100red years later. >> it's like 15,000 or maybe that does. work. I don't know. It just didn't seem. to work out math-wise. But what do I. know? >> Yeah. No, I'm with you. Who? You kind of. have to be able to peer back into the. vagaries of the American economy over. the last couple hundred years to sus. that out. I looked it up and it said the. what that would be today would be 200.

mink, 80 beaver tails, >> right? >> And $9,000. >> Poor beaver. >> I know. >> That's the other thing about Sharpo that. people don't say. He killed a lot of. animals for their pelts. That's right. So, [laughter]. >> uh, all right. So, after the expedition, uh, she stayed with Charbano. Um I think. a few years later they moved to uh with. little Baptist moved to St. Louis. >> Yeah. At the invitation of um Clark,

right? >> Yeah. And it says, you know, that they. he offered them an opportunity of land. to farm, which I don't quite get cuz he. just got 320 acres of land. >> I was wondering if that was one and the. same. >> Maybe. I I couldn't quite parse that. out. But at any rate, he's like, "Here, you come here. here's some land to farm. if you let me educate your son. >> uh and the you know American sort of. schooling system and uh you know that. was he was the godfather of the boy at.

that point really cared a lot about. Baptiste and Chicago and wanted the best. for him. >> and I think that was a pretty decent. deal for Charbano. >> Yeah. So, I mean, um, I believe Clark. officially adopted, uh, Baptist as his. guardian, at least, if not as his his. adopted parent. Um, and he was educated. at the St. Louis Academy, I believe. And. then he um I don't know how he met him,

but be Baptist went on to meet a German. prince who was like, "Hey, you should. totally come back and hang with me in. Germany and I'll make sure you get a. European education." And he did. He. moved to Europe and was educated there. Um lived a pretty interesting life. Said, "Yeah, I'm going to go back to. America." Became a trapper for a while. Um had a bunch of different interesting. jobs. I believe he was a hotel clerk in. Auburn, California for a little while. Um, so yeah, he did a bunch of different.

stuff and had a pretty pretty amazing. life. Uh, in addition to basically being. this the official mascot of the the core. of discoveries expedition. [laughter]. >> Yeah. And he he ended up taking. guardianship because Charbano and. Chicago left. >> in April 1811 to go on another fur. trading expedition and they left Baptist. with him. Right. >> Uh so it kind I think it kind of worked. out for everyone. >> Yeah. Yeah. I get the impression it. wasn't like we don't want our kid and. Louis give me your kid. I think like it.

was for the best interest of the kid and. they all loved him very much. That's the. impression I have. >> Uh she also had a daughter about a year. after that in 1812. Uh Lette or Lette, I. don't know if it's an S or a Z. And uh. this is where we get to the sort of fork. in the road as to what actually happened. to Chicago way. Uh there are a couple of. stories. One is that she died uh not. long after of what was called putrid. fever or uh which is probably typhoid.

fever. >> That's terrible. >> There's another story and which she. would have been about 25 years old in. December of 1812. Uh there's another. story that she went on to live a very. long life uh in another part of the. country, but I think that one has kind. of been shot down, right? >> Yeah. So, at the at the turn of the last. century, um Chicagoa was kind of dug out. of obscurity. Um well, actually there. was a guy who was the the official I.

don't know if biographer or chronicler. of the core of discoveries expedition. where he he was in charge. His name was. uh Bidd I believe. >> he was in charge of basically taking the. um notes of the core of discovery and. getting them ready for publication. You. just couldn't publish the whole thing. like that. He he edited them basically. but he also interviewed Clark and out of. his interviews with Clark we we found a. lot more um out about Chicago than we. knew before and Bill was like this is a.

very interesting story right here. I'm. going to put Chicagoa front and center. So he kind of brought Chicagoa into the. foreground for the first time. But then. almost a century later as the suff the. women's suffrage movement was starting. to gain momentum. Uh there was a woman. named um Emily no Eva Emory Dy who wrote. a book about the Louiswis and Clark. expedition and said here's my heroine. Sakagagoa is a heroine. I'm going to. basically use her as an icon for the.

suffragette movement. Um, and that's how. she kind of became this this symbol from. that point on. I don't remember what. kicked off the spiel though. You asked a. question or you said something. What was. it? Do you remember. >> what spiel? >> My spiel about how um Sak Chicagoa was. kind of brought out of obscurity by. these writers. Oh. Oh. Oh. Um where. where it came this idea came from that. um she had she had gone on to live a. long life. Um.

>> Oh, right. Right. that that first uh. book that was written by Eva Emory Dye. was picked up by another historian who. said, "You know what? Um I've heard. these stories about this woman who went. on to live at the Wind River PL um. reservation and I think she's actually. Chicago way." And that kind of kicked. off this whole hunt. >> Yeah. Because like you said, there was. uh I mean there are numerous um numerous. people who wrote down sort of officially. that she did die very young at 25 years. old. including I think Clark.

uh in one of his um I think like maybe. [clears throat] a financial leisure. >> Yeah. >> Leisure ledger. [laughter]. Uh it was a cash book about like where. people like where are they where are. they now basically and have they been. paid. >> and uh next to her name he just wrote. dead which. >> not even a frowny face next to. >> I guess if it's a ledger you're just. trying to sort of you know be cold about. it but it that for someone who really.

cared a lot about her it seemed it it. probably wasn't the right place to wax. philosophical. >> right but also some people have said um. well no he was covering for her because. she the the legend goes that she left. Charbano, ran off to live a life away. from her. >> as an independent woman. >> Right. Exactly. Which really kind of. dovetailed with the suffragette. movement's um push for women's rights. Um so that was a great idea that that. that that's what she did. And the idea. was that Clark was covering for her in.

his little cash ledgers by saying she. was dead knowing full well she was. alive. Other people are like, >> "Who's gonna ever look in Clark's cash. ledger?" like Sharpeno is ever going to. get his hands on it. That's probably not. correct. And there the whole idea that. she went on to live on the Wind River. Reservation until age 100 when she died. in like the 1880s. >> makes for a good story. >> It makes for a great story. And there. was a woman who did live like that. Her. name was uh Para Evo. Um also known as. Basil's mother who lived to be a.

hundred. And a lot of people said, "No, that's Sakoa." But right that was before. more historical record came out. um including an account from a guy who. worked for the same fur trading company. that Charbano did. Knew Charbano. personally and wrote in his journal. Had. no reason to make anything up, but in. December, I think on December 20th of uh. 1812 was it? >> Yeah. >> Wrote that Charbano's wife uh he's the.

one who said that she had a putrid fever. and died and that she was the best woman. in the fort. Uh she was a good woman and. the best woman in the fort. She was aged. about 25 years which totally fits the. bill for Chicagoa. Uh. >> and she left a fine infant girl. >> Yes. So once that once that guy's. journal was found, that was basically. the the nail in the coffin of the idea. that Sak Chicagoa had had lived to age. 100 after escaping her captor husband.

>> Yeah. I think what's kind of cool is, you know, even though there's very. little officially recorded about her. life, everywhere she is recorded, it's. all glowing praise. Um there's not like. one entry where anyone was ever like, "Oh boy, Chicago and that baby are. really [laughter]. like what a mistake that was." Like by. all accounts, she was a boon to the Corb. discovery and a big big part of its. success. >> Yeah. And so as a result, Chuck, um, Lifetime as in Lifetime Movie Network, Lifetime, I couldn't find the year, but.

they recently conducted a survey of. memorials to create the lifetime huru. >> And of I think uh 5,500 plus statues, monuments, and memorials that exist in. the United States, only about 200, which. is around 4% honor women. But of those. 200, 16 honor Sakagawea, which means. that she is the most honored woman via.

monuments and statues in the entire. United States. >> Amazing. >> The first one from what I read was by a. group of suffragettes in Portland, Oregon in 1905. And that statue is. obviously still there today. And it is. beautiful. And guess who's strapped to. her back in the statue? >> Um, [clears throat]. Lette. [laughter]. Close enough. >> Little Baptist. >> Little Baptist. That's right. You got. anything else? >> No, other than, and we should mention I. don't think we know a lot about what. happened to Lette. Uh, unfortunately,

she [music] was sort of lost to history. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, I guess that's it. >> That's it. >> All right. So, since we said that's it, that means it's time everybody for. listener mail. >> Yeah. We're going to do a couple of uh. corrections. A bit of a mayulpa for me. and a correction. >> Oh, I like those. Um, I said the word. redneck a lot entitled the episode about. the clan uh used the word redneck. >> and uh, you know, I probably shouldn't. have. That's a derogatory term. Uh, the.

the name actually has a different. history. I think West Virginia coal. [music] miners uh, has something to do. with that. And I just wasn't really. being as sensitive enough. I I'm not. apologizing for for degrading the clan. Uh, but I I probably shouldn't have used. the word redneck with such a broad. brush. >> But think about it though, Chuck. That. means the clan is so rotten they give. rednecks a bad name. [laughter]. >> That's essentially what we're saying. here. >> I love it. Uh, and then it's from that.

same episode. Uh, we need to [music]. address the Robert Bird instant because. we heard from a lot of people. >> That was all me. >> Yeah. So, I think we were talking about. Senator Robert Bird sort of being. unapologetic about being in the clan. That was very much not the [music] case. This is one of the many emails and this. is from Aaron Patrick Lions. He him his. Hey, listen to the great episode on the. KKK and uh as usual did a bang-up job. However, I have to take issue with uh. Josh's statement indicating that Senator. Robert [music] Bird was an unrepentant.

clansman. He was indeed an exalted. [music] Cyclops or local leader of the. clan in the ' 50s uh into the 50s. But. through the 70s and 80s, he had a. sincere change of heart regarding race. relations and voted for the Martin. Luther [music] King Jr. National Holiday. among other legislation in his very long. career. Uh he was deeply embarrass uh. embarrassed and apologetic about his. time in the clan. Uh and that is like I. said from Eric Patrick Aaron Patrick. Lions in Cedar Falls, Iowa. We heard. from a lot of people that um not only.

did he vote for the MLK holiday, but. apparently did a lot of work for. legislation [music]. to uh for equal rights for. African-Americans. >> I totally flubbed that one. So, my. apologies to Robert Bird's family for. tarnishing his legacy in that small way. And I'm glad we got corrected almost. immediately right after the episode came. out. It was, "Can't believe you guys use. redneck so much. You were totally wrong. about Robert Bird." So, this this. listener mail is perfect. And then. there's one other thing I want to say.

too about the redneck thing, Chuck. Um, somebody pointed out, I think it was on. Twitter, >> that using the word redneck was not only. derogatory towards rednecks, it. obfuscated covered up all of the people. who aren't rednecks, who see who are. just kind of everyday normal people who. are either in the clan [music] or. subscribed to the clan's ideologies that. it makes it seem like just this marginal. group um or a marginal thought or fringe. thought when it's really kind of. subscribed to by an alarming number of.

people that, you know, you live and work. beside and might never really guess at. just how deep their racism goes. So, I. think that's another reason to to have. assued it as well. >> Yeah. And, you know, I'm I'm not going. to stick up for myself, but I think when. you grow up in the South, you might feel. like you have a little bit of ownership. I'm using a word like that. >> for sure. [music]. >> So, uh yeah, my apologies to all the. great rednecks of the world. >> That's right. Sorry, Jeff Foxworthy. >> That's right. Sorry, Larry. The cable. guy, who's actually not really a redneck.

if you listen to David Cross's beef with. him. >> Uh yeah, I mean that's a that's fully an. act, right? >> Yeah, from what I understand, >> he he created that persona to get more. uh fans of comedy. >> That's right. Uh and smart man. >> That's right. And uh well, I guess since. we started talking about Larry the Cable. Guy, that's the end of this episode and. listener mail is petered [music] out. Uh, and if you want to get in touch with. us to correct us or call us out for. something or whatever, [music]. um, lay it on us. Send us an email to. stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com.

Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, [music]. iMheart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows. [music].