Selects: PT Barnum: More Complicated Than You've Heard | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi, everybody. Chuck here with the. greatest show on Earth. Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey. Circus, you say? No, Stuff You Should. Know the Podcast. That's right. It's. Saturday, and that means it's time for. another Selects, and this one is from. May 2018. P.T. Barnum: {colon} More. Complicated Than You've Heard. And I. picked this one, you guys, for two. reasons. One, because I believe in this. episode I predicted that Hugh Jackman. would play the man in a movie one day. One of my two predictions, along with. >> [music]. >> Jared from Subway being a creep. And the.

other reason I picked it out is because. I finally saw The Greatest Showman on. Earth recently with my daughter. And I. didn't like it so much. I didn't think. it was that good. Uh so, I'm sorry. [music] to anyone who had a part in that. movie. Um my daughter loved it. My wife. loved it. I just thought it was okay. But [music] this episode is great. So, I. hope you enjoy P.T. Barnum: {colon} More. Complicated Than You've Heard. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart [music] Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark. There's Charles W. [music]. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Jerry's got a top hat on. I I know. I don't know why. I don't. know. She's trying to be all Mr. Monopoly. Or. P.T. Barnum. Oh, yeah. I forgot he wore a a top hat.

As allegedly. Oh, no. He did. I saw a picture of it. >> Yeah, Hugh Grant certainly did. Hugh Grant, Hugh Jackman. Hugh Hugh Laurie. I think it's Hugh. Laurie. >> That's who it was. Yeah. No, it's Clive. Owen you're thinking of. Yeah, Hugh Jackman, man. He wears that. top hat like a champ. He does. Um I. don't know how much you went on the. internet for this one, cuz this is a. pretty comprehensive article. It. actually was, yeah. But um. The Greatest Showman really set the.

internet on fire, man. In a lot of like. it really brought out a lot of people. saying like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. This is the the very definition of. the word fantasy. Yeah, it seemed like. that movie was can be best described as. a musical whitewashing. Mhm. In every sense of that word. Yeah. So, let's destroy it. >> [laughter].

>> Yeah, I mean, after reading this, I. didn't think like man, P.T. Barnum, what a complete A-hole. No, he was the. it's just a lot more complicated than. that. And he did a lot of stuff that you. just shouldn't just pass over because. you can't figure out lyrics to. What What What rhymes with racism? >> [laughter]. >> Uh yeah, I mean, he was he was. definitely an enigma. And um seems like he did some good, but. also. uh I mean, he was a hustler, man.

You For sure. So, this is what I I. didn't fully understand until. researching this, Chuck. He He was He's. known as the greatest showman, right? >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> But there were plenty of other showmen. out there at the time. >> Yeah. Which makes sense because you have. to have something to compare be compared. to to be the greatest, right? But I I I. guess I had just assumed he was like the. first or the originator. No, he was not. the first showman. He was a great. showman. >> Yeah. What he really left his mark on.

was introducing America to pure. unadulterated hucksterism. Sure. And. using it for marketing. Humbug. That's what he called it. And he had he. had a lot of quotes. Some were Some were. definitely something he said, like every. crowd has a silver lining. Which means you can shake it out of them. and get some money from a bunch of. people, right? >> Yeah. The one about a sucker born every. minute, that's never been successfully. attributed to him 100%. Well, yeah. And.

one thing is for sure and. uh is that his autobiography is I think. if you order it, it comes with a salt. lick. >> [laughter]. >> So, you can just lick on that salt while. you're reading it. Right. I don't know what that means, but that. seems like something that they would do. Yeah, I mean, he he uh. I think when the man is writing about. himself, it's like, "You know what? You. may just want to. believe a third of this." Or take it. with a grain of salt, but so much so.

that you need an actual salt lick. Oh, yeah. You didn't get it? I got it. >> [laughter]. >> So So, there is one quote that I think. kind of describes this guy best or at. least his philosophy. And it also kind. of reveals like. you can't call him harmless, but also the the intentions were not. entirely evil, right? Right. He had a. quote that said that um. people don't mind being deceived so long. as they're being amused at the same.

time. Which is kind of true. It does. And it it largely lets him off the hook. as far as being a huckster, right? But. the thing that that The Greatest Showman. really glossed over or just outright. ignored was that a lot of the the. amusements that he was presenting to the. public were extraordinarily degrading to. people at the time. Um they were super. racist. There were. just a lot of. There was just a lot of exploitation. He.

made his money not just by hustling. Americans, but by exploiting other. Americans, too, right? >> Yeah. Um and again, like this a lot of. this is contextual. It's not necessarily. fair for later generations to judge. previous generations, although it's. really fun to do. Yeah. >> Um but. yes, you could say like this guy was. exploitative even even in compare even. compared to like his contemporaries, right? Perhaps. So, he is just this very. complex character who I think you and I. can agree was not an evil person. He.

just did some horrible things here and. there. Should we go back in time? Yes, let's. All right. Let's go back to the. beginning. Let's hop in the way-back. machine, which is appropriately. steampunk-y right now. Yeah. It takes. many forms. I don't know if people. realize that. It has a clock without the. glass, and you can see the parts inside, but it doesn't actually function. It's. strictly for decoration.

>> [music]. >> So, let's go back to 1810. Uh back to. Bethel, Connecticut, where this man was born, Mr. Phineas. Taylor Barnum. Um he had sort of a mixed family life. He I mean, he was They point out in this. article he was firmly American. His. great great great grandfather. came over from England as an indentured. servant in the 17th century. Mhm. Uh. eventually became a landowner and but. they didn't It's not like they had a ton. of money. His dad, Phineas,

great name. Yeah, all these are great. names. Was uh he was not super. successful. Um so, it was kind of up to young P.T. to. um to make his own way in life. Right. Yeah, his father was a farmer, which. introduced um Phineas. to the idea that he really hated like. manual mindless work. >> didn't like doing that farm work. But. that it's that's not to say he didn't. like work. He just liked very specific. kinds of work where his energies were. appropriately channeled.

>> people out of money. Sure, yeah. I mean, that was that was kind of it. He liked. um He was the definition of the word. enterprising, right? He could figure out. a way. He could look at something. literally look at something that you. couldn't you could almost not give away. You certainly couldn't sell and turn it. into pure profits. Like like he got into. lotteries for a little while once, right? Yeah, I mean, he went he went to. work. He left the farm, went to work at. a country store, and realized quickly. like just cuz you're in the country. doesn't mean there aren't like swindlers.

and cheaters out here. Yeah. So, he kind. of learned some of the tricks of the. trade there. His old man died when he was 15. Uh and he was. kind of his his mom had his mom had to. get a It's kind of up to me now to. provide for my family." So, he moved, got that another job as a store clerk, and as you said, got into lotteries. Yeah, and he was early on pursuing a. career at clerkship, which I guess is a thing. Yeah. >> But But yeah, so there was this.

He saw easy money in lottery. So, he set. up one himself. Apparently, when he was. working for these owners of the store, um. they were away at one point, and he got. his eyes on some um tin kitchenware that. just would not sell. Yeah. So, he took. some other stuff that wouldn't sell at. that store. These things weren't his, by. the way. And he traded them for a bottle. collection, which I guess was a thing. that people wanted at the time. >> Yeah. And he put those things up as prizes,

right? And he started a lottery, and. these were the prizes. And there were. cash prizes. But he ended up selling. like a thousand tickets or something. like that in this little town store um. based on these prizes and some cash. prizes saying like half of all tickets. were going to be winners. And you might. win a bottle, or you might win like a tin muffin pan, but you could also win this cash. And. so, these things that had just been. sitting on these shelves forever were. suddenly turned into something valuable. thanks to his marketing expertise. And.

this is while he's still a teenager. Yeah, it's I think we've covered this in. something before that lotteries were a. thing back then that someone could just. cook up. You know, I get It's not like the. lotteries we have today, like these. sanctioned. uh sanctioned ways of stealing people's. money. Right. But back then, you could just. cook up a lottery in a small town and be. like, "You know what? I've got uh it's. it's almost like a Ponzi thing, like I. can raise money, give away some of that. money in prizes, and then keep the rest. Right. I think that was in our lotteries.

episode. Oh, really? Yeah. >> Okay, well, in order to do that though, you have to be a a natural-born. salesperson, which is what he was. You. really do. And and like lotteries have. played like a theme throughout his early. career. Like that's how he ended up. making his initial. I don't know if fortune's the right. word, but that's how we he staked. himself and his family was through. lotteries and working in stores and then. eventually owning stores like general. stores, grocery stores, that kind of. thing. But the lotteries are where he. made his money, and he actually figured.

out that you could make more money with. less work than having to go to the. trouble of setting up a lottery, like. you said, anybody could just set up a. lottery um by taking tickets from. somebody else's lottery and selling them. further out at an increased price. But. then he figured out one more thing, Chuck, you didn't even have to go out. and sell these things yourself. You. could hire other people to sell them. even further out. All you had to do was. give them the tickets and collect the. money that they brought you. So he ended.

up making money by basically. expanding other people's lotteries for a. while. That's right. And in the middle of this, and he had moved to Brooklyn at this. point. He's kind of kind of hopping all. over the place there in the Northeast. But uh And and to be fair, we're hopping. kind of all over his early life right. now. Yeah, for sure. >> chronologically. Yeah, yeah. Uh so in. this time period he met. um who would become his wife, a woman. named Charity. Hallett, who he described in his. autobiography as a fair, rosy-cheeked,

buxom girl. with beautiful white teeth. Did I mention she had big boobs? Right. >> [laughter]. >> What's the second line? >> those teeth, man. Uh so they would get married, and I. think they had four daughters. Um. but during all this time, he he did he. had a little Josh Clark in him. because. >> How do you mean? Well, he was writing. letters to local papers that weren't. getting published, so he said, "You know. what? I'm going to start my own paper.".

Yeah. Very he Clarked himself a paper. I'll see you all in hell media. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, and much like yourself you started. your own paper, which is kind of cool. Sure. I mean, like if people won't print. your crank ideas, just go start your own. paper. >> It's like if you want to get your. manifesto out there and. >> [laughter]. >> Either either yeah, either become. Unabomber-esque, which we don't. recommend, or start your own paper. >> That's right. And his was called the. Herald of Freedom. Which is terrible. And this is where it gets a little weird. because he he he kind of went after.

people. um was eventually hit with a libel suit. and spent 60 days in jail. But that sold a lot of papers, and he. was also hailed as a hero because. apparently he was. legitimately exposing corruption. >> Right. So to me, Chuck, that one really. stood out um because. it shows just how huge this guy's life. story is. >> Yeah. That that even if you make a movie. out of it, all you the best you can hope. for is to pick like five or six or 10.

different things and try to find a. thread throughout them, right? Whether. that's an accurate portrayal or not, it. can't possibly be because this guy's. life was just so enormous and he did so. many things, and he was such an outsized. character, that a lot of times you. either vilify him or glorify him, and it. was much more a combination of both. those things. And I think that example. really says it all. Like he had his his. notions and he started his own paper and. ended up going to jail, and subscription.

boosted, so ended up making money from. it. But at the same time, he was. legitimately trying to call out. corruption in this town that he cared. about. So. his character was much more complex than. than you get. just from just about any source unless. you read biographies about him. >> Yeah, agreed. Um so finally he says or. I'm sorry, Connecticut said no more. lotteries in Connecticut. So he's like, "All right, what am I doing here even if.

I can't do this little scam?" Yeah, he's. like, "I I love this town, but not that. much." So in 1834 he left the paper, shut that down, moved his family to New. York City, and uh should we take a. break? Perfect time. >> We're in New York City, and we'll be. back right after this. >> [singing]. [singing].

>> I got a falafel. Is it good? It's pretty good. >> Was Is it the from the Halal Guys? Uh-huh, of course. >> Oh, man. >> Who else you going to get a falafel. from? That's good stuff. Yeah. Uh so. man, this guy really just reading. through this thing. he did so many. jobs.

Right, he was a factotum. Dozens and. dozens of jobs through his lifetime. Yeah, and I'm glad he didn't just stick. to clerking, right? Or even lottery. He. had this thing, like something about. show business attracted this guy. >> Oh, yeah. I don't know what it was. Maybe nobody but him knows what it was. Maybe he doesn't even know what it was, but he was attracted to the idea of uh. like wowing and amusing and amazing. crowds. And he he did that pretty early.

on. I think he was 25 when he got into. uh exhibiting a human being who he. purchased and owned for a while, which. by the way does not show up in The. Greatest Showman. Right. And this is. after in New York he started a boarding. house for a while Oh, yeah. >> and co-owned a grocery store for a. while. Right. And so like his life is. full of him just trying to do these kind. of regular things and then being like,

"Nope, got to go buy a lady and put her. on display." Right. Uh this is after, Chuck, by the way, he had come down with. smallpox for a while. Oh, did we miss the smallpox? Yeah. It's. what I'm saying. Like this guy had a. huge life. Man. >> Well Well, let's get into Joice Heth, right? Because she is a very. controversial part of um P. T. Barnum's. life. She was the first uh his first. foray into show business, and there's no. other way to put it. Like he purchased. her. She was a slave, an elderly slave.

um. who he purchased from another promoter. who had been touting her as General. George Washington's nursemaid Yes. from. when George Washington was a child. And. this is 1835, right? >> do the math. She was supposedly 161. years old. Yeah, so he uh negotiates a. price. He went He went and saw her. And. she was blind. She had no teeth. She was. partially paralyzed. Uh but she could talk and tell her.

story. Yeah, she told stories about. young George as a boy. Oh, yeah. And And. to be fair, he she she was already being. exploited. It's not like he which is not. great, but it's not like Barnum. introduced this into her life. No, he. just purchased her and took it over. Yes, exactly. >> Took over the exploitation for money. For For a thousand dollars, and he. toured with her uh until she died. um not that long later, just like a year. later, not even. Uh in 1836, he made a.

lot of dough. Um and it was it was sort. of a watershed moment for him where I. think he was like, "Wait a minute. I. I've realized that I can get people um. in a room by cooking up these stories. and and getting things in the newspaper. and printing these posters. >> Mhm. Uh and even if like if if business. was down, he would do these crazy things. like one of them. when business was down appearing with.

Heth at one point he accused her of. being a robot, what they called at the. time an automaton. Uh in an anonymous. letter to the editor in the newspaper. >> Yeah, a robot made of whalebone, rubber, and springs. So everyone was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Not only is she. George Washington's nursemaid, but she's. really a robot." Right. And what that. did was it got the people who had been. avoiding going to see her because even. at the time people were like, "This is.

pure exploitation. This woman is being. exhibited like a. giraffe would be or something like that. She's an old lady. He's working her 10. to 12 hours a day." Some people think. that he worked her to death, literally. Um and so there was part of the press. that was saying and reporting on this. with with great distaste. So there's a. segment of American society who would. not be caught dead seeing. George Washington's 160-year-old. nursemaid. >> Yeah. But they would conceivably go see.

an automaton if that's really what was. going on. So he managed to to. dupe the. the very people who were critical of. this exploitation that he was. undertaking. He He got everybody in that. one. Well, yeah, and it gets even worse. Um finally when she passed away he. actually sold tickets to a public. autopsy. Mhm. In a saloon. >> So people could come look at this poor. woman's insides, and this is where it was finally. revealed, doctor said she's maybe like.

80 81 years old at most. Right. And this. is so so Jane McGrath kind of walks past. like what a controversy this was. Like. this guy had been like very much touting. that she was the nursemaid. Like he. supposedly had the bill of sale to. George Washington's father for her. So. like he was saying like this is. legitimately a 160-year-old woman. So, in this autopsy that he charged for, when when it was exposed that she was.

actually half that age, it was there was a bit of disgrace. there. And he had to learn to roll with. the punches. And it was about this time. that that he basically said to himself, you can you can take this as a lesson. and go on the straight and narrow, maybe. get back into clerking. Yeah. Or you can. double, maybe triple and quadruple down. on this. And and see where that goes. And he chose the latter of the two, for. sure. That's right. He sure did. Uh the.

next thing that he did, the next person. that he kind of took under his wing. was uh his greasy greasy wing. was someone called uh Signor Signor. >> Senior. Is it Senior? Yeah. Why is it spelled that way? Uh that is the Italian spelling of. Signor. Oh, well, let me turn it on. then. Signor Antonio Anteniono. Nice. >> [laughter]. >> Antonio Antonio. I added an extra bit in.

there. Signor Antonio is another way to. say it. Well, sure. >> [laughter]. >> If you're a dullard. I'm a bit of a. dullard, Chuck. I think you know that. after 10 years. >> So, this guy. uh we're really milking that 10-year. thing, huh? >> [laughter]. >> I've got my SYSK 10-year army shirt on. I see that. It's very nice. Thank you. I've been working on my buxomness. You're quite buxom. >> [laughter]. >> So, Signor Antonio was a balancer. He's. he's one of these guys, like a plate.

spinner, walked on stilts, juggles. Um. he could throw things in the air and. catch them very fast. Yeah, he's like a. hippie. Yeah, exactly. He would be on. tour with he'd have those little sticks. What are those called? Devil sticks? Devil sticks? >> Or a hacky sack. Any of those things. >> Yeah, he'd pull a hacky sack out of his. ear at any moment. Hey. So, this guy he said, all right, you need to be my newest client. I will. make you famous. Change your your stage name from Signor. Antonio to Signor Vivala. Nice. Cuz.

that's a little more, I don't know, exciting. I guess. Sounds like Signor. >> Signor Antonio. Yeah. I did, too. It's a. lateral move. Uh here's the thing. though. Is there were a lot of dudes out. there spinning plates. So, he it wasn't. like he was so unique. But. uh Barnum thought, you know what? I. think you're better than the rest. So, here's what I'll do. And again, this is. just another example of how how good he. was at promotion. He said, I'll do a.

free performance for a theater. Uh and. I'll even be your assistant on stage. Uh. and people came. And so, the theater. said, all right. I guess if people come for free, they'll. pay. Mhm. I think I think what he was. saying was he Yeah, I think that's. exactly. I think you're right. >> He just wowed them enough, I think. >> Uh that's that's the impression I have. >> Yeah. But even still, despite Vivala. being genuinely good, he was I think. head and shoulders above most of his. contemporaries, right? >> Yeah. I think people saw in the press,

oh, there's a really good plate spinner. We saw a plate spinner at, you know, the. at the office last week. So, I'm not. going to go anywhere [laughter] to see. another plate spinner. I'm certainly not. going to pay. Yeah. So, Barnum had a. pretty good idea, but it actually came. out of. a. uncomfortable situation that fell into. his lap with Roberts, another plate. spinner. Yeah, so this is a rival plate spinner. who apparently would go to performances. >> Yeah, he was he was a a And he.

would go to uh Vivala's performances and. heckle him, I guess. You call that plate spinning? Boo. Terrible plate spinning. Stuff like. that. And so, PT Barnum cooked up a thing where he was. like, all right, I'll offer 1,000. American dollars to anyone who can. perform Vivala's act in public. Roberts. accepted. But here's what really. happened is he got together with Roberts. and they all three hatched a plan to do.

these kind of staged competitions. Right. So, they they promoted in the. press. >> competitions. >> East Coast West Coast plate spinning. rivalries going on right now. Everybody's going to come see this. And. everybody did. And in that first. performance, Roberts, as was staged, conceded he could not replicate Vivala's. act. It was too good. But I would love. to see Vivala replicate my act. And I. challenge you, Signor Vivala, to.

replicate my act tomorrow night at this. same theater. And they kept going back. and forth like that. >> Yeah, man. Um with this staged rivalry. that they they they made some cash off. of, thanks to Barnum's ingenuity. They. did. Finally, in 1836, the circus comes. into the picture. Mhm. Uh he joined a. traveling circus, Barnum did, as a. ticket seller, which I take it to mean. he doesn't sit in a booth and sell. tickets, but he goes around town selling. tickets. Yeah, like chambers of commerce. or something like that. Yeah, and of.

course he got a little uh. commission off this thing. So, he was making some dough. Vivala. joined that same circus as a performer. >> Of course, they were attached at the the. hip at that point. >> No, that was Chang and Eng, Bunker. you're thinking of. >> [laughter]. >> That's a dad joke. It totally was. Um and this one I thought was a little. bit weird. Apparently, the circus. proprietor, a guy named Turner, was uh into practical jokes.

and not very good ones, because this. practical joke was he convinced a crowd. that Barnum was the Reverend Ephraim. Avery Mhm. who had been acquitted of. murder, but everyone thought that this. guy had committed murder. And back then, no one knew what anyone looked like. So, he said, this guy is Ephraim Avery. And. he almost got lynched, apparently. Yeah, like Ephraim Avery's name was not very. well liked in the area. He was at the. very least, he, through having an. adulterous affair with a young woman,

had induced her to kill herself. Or at. worst, had murdered her to prevent her. from having his illegitimate child. But. he'd been [clears throat] acquitted, right? And he's a reverend, did we. mention? Um so, yeah, the the crowd like. sup- according to Barnum, almost killed. him. >> That's a real funny joke. I know. But. then later on, James says that um that. Barnum got got even with him with his. own practical joke. I could find nothing. anywhere, including in in Barnum's. autobiography, that that mentions that.

>> I think he covered his toilet in Saran. wrap. Oh, gross. >> [laughter]. >> That is so nasty. Uh no, no, he gave him an upper decker. Gross. That's even worse. So, apparently, these guys got into. business together and it became a thing. where people would go see this circus. where the two ringmasters would would. kind of go at each other with these. practical jokes. Right. That became a. thing. So, so there's a transition going. on, another transition now. He is he.

started out store clerking, lottery-ing, went got into show business where he's. like basically a Colonel Tom to. different performers. >> Yeah. And then now he's transitioning. into the circus. But by now, he's been. like a married to the road about as much. as he's been married to Charity as as. well. And from all accounts, like he was very much in love with her. and and they were like he was faithful. and they they were they were a real.

couple, but he was on the road a lot. There's just no ifs, ands, or buts about. it. He was out there on the road quite a. bit. So, transitioning to a circus was. basically the same thing. It was just a. little bigger of an outfit. So, it was. like a step up. But you got to also keep. in mind here that he's spending a lot of. time on the road at a time when travel. was really long and really tough. That's right. And so, he eventually. decides working for someone else's. circus is for the birds. I'm going to start my own. I'm going to. buy some horse and wagons. I'm going to.

get a clown. You got to have a clown. Uh. I think he still had Vivala. at the time. Yeah. And started Barnum's. Grand Scientific and Musical Theater. Uh toured all over the place for a. little while. And then they disbanded. Right. Nothing ever seemed to work out. for very long. No, I think that um he got fed up, it. says, with some of the rivalries with. other showmen. Um that they you know, you would build your whole circus around.

like an act and all of a sudden the act. would be like, I'm I'm sick of this. I'm. sick of being on the road. I'll see you. later. And all of a sudden your circus. would fall apart. I think they were kind. of tenuous outfits, right? >> Yeah. But he he the thing about Barnum. was like something about this called to. him. Like he would when his circus. collapsed and he was out in the middle. of the country on the road and he had to. go back home, the first thing he would. do was start figuring out his next. circus or his next act or whatever it. was. He would go back out again. He he.

was indefat-. indefatigable. In-. indefatigable. In that sense. Uh yeah, so, I mean, we'll quickly speed through the next. couple of years. He he did a little. steamboat. circus for a little while along the. Mississippi River. Mhm. Um that didn't. come along. He tried to do a respectable. business again. Uh went into business. with a guy who manufactured. grease. Right. Paste and cologne. That did all.

right for a little while, but then that. failed. Uh and then the this whole time. he still feels that pull to the tent. Right, he sold illustrated Bibles for a. little while. Yeah. Finally, here's the. thing. He wanted uh stability. Like. being out on the road was tough. Ask. Steve Perry, right? >> [laughter]. >> But. he wanted this this to be tied to show. business in some way. Finally, one day.

and I think the 1841. he um. he had another big break or another big. vision. There was a There was a place in. New York, a museum in what you would. call today a museum, that was up for. sale in. I'm not sure where it was, but it was in. New York, right? >> Yes. And it was called Scudder's. American Museum. And Barnum heard that. Scudder wanted to get out and was. putting the whole collection up for 15.

grand, which is a substantial amount of. money and definitely more money than. than Barnum had, but he said, "That's. it, right there. I can have a permanent. place where people come to me and I can. be home with my wife and daughters, but. I can still have this daily interaction. with show business. I got to buy that. thing." Well, and it will also. accomplish this is. I can still have my. freak show performers, but because it's a museum, somehow it.

has a little bit more respectability. Right. >> because apparently at the time theaters. weren't like they are today. It wasn't. like we're going to the theater. Theaters could be a little bit like a. a second tier entertainment. Right. It. was like hoi polloi tawdry crowds went. to the theater. That That was associated. with like burlesque or something like. that. Or even like human oddities. exhibition, stuff like that. That was. theater stuff. A museum, like Scudder's, like respectable people could go there.

So, what Barnum did was he he bought a. museum and then dragged it down into the. mud. Right. And this this whole the way. he financed the museum, I didn't fully. understand, to be honest. Do you want me. to explain it? Uh if you want. Or. [laughter] we could just say he ended up. with the museum in 1841 through a lot of. work and sweat. >> I think that's that's fair enough cuz it. is a little bit like, you know, robbing. Peter to pay Paul. Right. >> It wasn't just a straight-up purchase. Let's just say that. Right. But so, one. thing that you can say about this.

museum, which he renamed Barnum's. American Museum, it was a big success. And one of the reasons it was a big. success was because he. was he tirelessly worked at finding new. and interesting ways to market the. thing, right? Yeah. Um. and by. I'm not sure exactly when, but by a very. short time after he opened it, I think. that same year in 1841, um. he he was he charged 25 cents a person.

for admission. He had something like. 4,000 visitors a day. And he took this thing, like I say that. he dragged the word museum down in the. mud. He definitely added and expanded to. the definition of museum. And then he. also had this lecture hall where he had. like performances that you would see. like in a circus or something like that. And he turned this place into an. emporium, just something huge and an. enormous spectacle. And something like.

850,000. pieces were on display in his museum. So, you definitely got your quarter's. worth, for sure. Yeah, and those are. just the pieces. He also, I mean, as far. as the circus element, he had everything. covered. He had dancers, musicians, plate spinners, ventriloquists. Well, you got to have the plate spinner. He. had little people, he had big people, he. had ladies with beards and robots and. puppets and animals. He had giraffes and.

grizzly bears. Like he really had. everything. humming on all cylinders at this point. Yeah, he really did. And again, there. was still there's that whole thread of. like, you know, there are people being. exploited. There were. people who were complicit in that. There. were people who were. um. anyone who came to the museum was. gawking at, you know, the weirdness of. these other people or whatever, which. again today is very odd to us, but at.

the time. was still odd. Like that's the thing. that I think gets lost on people. Like. there were side shows and things like. that, but. Barnum took it to an extraordinary. degree and really ran with it and became. extremely rich as a result, actually. Should we take a break? I am ready to. All right. The museum's humming along. We're going to take a break. We'll be. back right after this.

>> [singing]. [singing]. [singing]. [music]. >> Okay, we're back. Yeah, so we mentioned earlier about the. humbug, um this kind of hucksterism. In his biography there or autobiography,

which was rewritten by himself, by the. way, after people read the first version. and said, "What a jerk.". Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, he was like just. openly boastful and a braggart about how. much he exploited people and how much he. duped the American public. >> it down a little bit in this in the. revision, but he he did talk a little bit about. being slightly embarrassed about kind of. how shameless he was. But then again, in. the next line he would say, "But you. know what? This is how everyone is in my.

business. I'm just better at it than. them, basically." Yeah, he said um. he said Oh, there's a great quote. I. can't find it anywhere, though. Where. basically if he if he Oh, here it is. Um if his advertising was quote more. audacious than his competitors, it was. not because I had less scruple than. they, but more energy, far more. ingenuity, and a better foundation for. such promises. >> He thought a lot of himself. He. definitely did, but he also worked. pretty hard at it, for sure. And I think.

if you if you compared apples to apples. at the time, Barnum's jam was way better. than anybody else's jam. Yeah, for sure. So, uh he had three really big successes in. a row. with his with his museum here. The first. one was called the Fiji Mermaid, f e e j. e e. This was in 1842. Um and this was a. big a big deal. He got a man named Levi. Lyman or Levy Lyman. He was an old uh.

colleague of his. And he said, "Here's what I'll do. You're going to You are now Dr. J. Griffin. You are a naturalist for the. British Lyceum of Natural History,". which was not a real place. And. you are the you are in ownership of what. we'll call the Fiji Mermaid, which was a. What do we call it in the taxidermy? Rogue taxidermy? Yeah. It was rogue. taxidermy. >> It totally was. >> like a jackalope, except what was it? It.

was a head of a baboon, torso of an orangutan, and a fish tail. just for good measure. Yeah, and as far. back as they can tell, it was probably. made by a Japanese sailor in the 1820s. and it passed through a few hands before. Barnum finally leased it and put it on. display. >> I wonder where that thing is now. I. looked. I I don't know. There are other. Fiji mermaids out there. There was it. was like kind of a thread of rogue. taxidermy in the mid-19th century. And I.

think Harvard has one on display, but I. looked to find out where P.T. Barnum's. is and I can't find it. >> It's probably like on Richard Branson's. headboard or something. >> It It may have actually burned up in one. of the many fires that plagued P.T. Barnum's life. Yeah, things are going to. get fiery here in this last bit, too. Yeah, anyway, let's get back to the Fiji. Mermaid, though. Okay. Okay, so Dr. J. Griffin is touring touring with this. supposedly touring with this mermaid,

right? >> Sure. And Barnum. But the guy's actually not out there. touring. Barnum basically creates out of. whole cloth a tour of this mermaid, writes letters about how great this. thing is. in different people's names and then. mails them to friends that live around. the country and asks them to mail those. letters in to to newspapers in New York. talking about how this thing has to be. seen to be believed. >> Yeah, so people came far and wide to see. this piece of taxidermy.

Yeah, and by the way, this whole J. Griffin thing, like this guy was posing. as him. He was giving public lectures. Oh, yeah. >> made up as a naturalist, a British naturalist. And he was an. American. promoter. He had nothing to do with He. was just making all this stuff up, but. he would give like public lectures on. it. I love it. >> Like the audacity, it's amazing. Uh so, the second big victory was when he met. up with a 4-year-old named Charles. Stratton.

>> [clears throat]. >> He was a little person. His cousin, actually. And he stopped growing when he. was 2 ft tall and he changed his name. and rebranded him as General Tom Thumb. And that name probably rings a bell. They became very famous together. He. said he was 11 years old and they were a. a media and ticket selling sensation. Yeah, they would be like invited into. meet like royalty, whatever country they. toured. He was a huge hit at the museum. It was.

like a a big deal for both Barnum and. and Charles Stratton. That's right. They. a sensation, that's the best way to put. it. And the final big victory of the. [clears throat] trifecta. When he was in. Europe with. with Stratton, he. heard of Jenny Lind. She was a Swedish. opera singer. And this was the kind of. thing where he was like, "You know what? She doesn't have a beard. >> [laughter]. >> She's All she is is a talented singer, but she's amazing. And this would really legitimize me if I.

did like a straight-up act. [clears throat] for a change." Right. So, even though she's big over here, they don't know about her in America, and she could blow up there. So, I'm. going to offer her $1,000 per. performance, which was a ton of money. and a big risk, but he made about a half. a million dollars with her or more. We. branded the Swedish Nightingale by. trotting her around the United States, and. she was like beyond a sensation in the. United States. Yeah, that was another.

thing, too. I mean, like she was pretty. big in Europe, but I don't think she was. well-known if known at all in America. But by the time she showed up for the. the tour starting in 1850, he had. managed to. like you said, just turn her into a. a national sensation. Like people had. like Beatlemania for this lady. Yeah. Um. the this article says that she was not a. a very nice person. I didn't see that. anywhere else. And I actually saw that. so after the contract between her and. Barnum was up in 1851, she continued to.

tour America with like an actual. orchestra, I believe. Um and she made $300,000. in 1850's money. um from this whole American tour and. donated every single penny of it to. Sweden's public school system, which was. >> Oh, really? >> burgeoning at the time. Yeah. So, I. don't know what Jane was talking about, but I think she just kind of didn't find. America very cultured is is what I get.

But apparently Jane didn't like that. >> Well, America probably wasn't very. cultured in 1850. Right. But I thought. that was pretty neat, man. She took all. of that money and donated it to the. public school system in Sweden. Man, that's crazy. But yeah, so so Barnum was. not legitimized thanks to that. I think. it actually didn't go all that well, but. he did. enrich himself thoroughly through Jenny. Lind for sure. That's right, but he. would go broke again because he's P.T. Barnum. Jeez. And that's what he does. In the 1850's, he bought up a lot of.

land near Bridgeport, Connecticut. because he wanted to make East. Bridgeport the happening place. He [snorts] invested in a in the Jerome. Clock Company, wanted to relocate it to. East Bridgeport. It was not a smart thing to do. The. company went bankrupt. And all of a. sudden, he was broke again, and this is. fire number one. He moves out of his. mansion. because he's broke, and then when after. he had moved out, the mansion burned. down. Right, but if he had to move out, you would think that he had relinquished.

ownership. So, why does it matter as far as his life. goes? Oh. Unless he had a bunch of money stuffed. into the insulation or something. I. don't know. He had a Breaking Bad thing. going on. >> It might have just been a a footnote or. something, or he may. maybe he did. No, I guess if he had moved out, then. Yeah. >> didn't own it. It's I just thought that was a little. weird. Yeah. So, he he was in debt like. big-time, like broke, bankrupt, in debt. because of this terrible clock company.

thing, which you should always take as a. a reason to never put all of your eggs. in one basket, which I guess is what he did. But he. managed to. emerge from debt after I think 5 years. Um and he ended up during this time, he. pawned his museum, but he also put the name of the museum. in his wife's name, who was not. bankrupt. And so, they were able to make.

some income off of the lease for the. museum. And then when he managed to buy the. museum back after 5 years, he just went. like right back to it. Like like like he. didn't miss a beat. Yeah, I mean, this. this 10-year period from 1850 to 1860, he went broke. He he did the smart thing. like he said with his wife. He started. giving lectures about making money. He. went on tour again with Tom Thumb. He. got a dead whale. He bought a dead whale. and said, "Surely people will pay money to see.

this." So, he was still doing all this. crazy stuff. Um. he bought a hippopotamus. He bought two beluga whales. Like it's. just crazy the things that he was doing. Yeah, also, Chuck, we have to say that. the title of the lecture tour, the art of money getting. >> [laughter]. >> It's not even the art of making money, the art of money getting. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> So, um. so, the uh the. he's his star's starting to rise again.

At the very least, his fortunes are. reversing from from, you know, just. doing any kind of work he can get his. hands on. And then. all along this way, like Barnum was a. pretty he was what's known as a. Jacksonian Democrat. Jacks Andrew. Jackson was a populist president, and. he was. uh. I think. Didn't we lay. He was the one who was responsible for. the Trail of Tears, right? I'm pretty sure that was Andrew Jackson.

It was. Remember our two-parter on Trail. of Tears? >> I do. Okay, so he was he was um. P.T. Barnum was of this man's party. He. was a Jackson supporter. And then the. Civil War breaks out, and all of a. sudden um. Barnum has this like. total conversion. He was not like an. outright. bigoted racist who worked to keep. African-Americans enslaved, worked as a.

Confederate sympathizer, anything like. that. He was fairly unremarkable and. pretty normal. Like for example, at his. at his museum, um if you were black, you. couldn't come in. It was a segregated. museum. But that was like a lot of. businesses at the time. So, he was a. very normal pedestrian person as far as. his politics go and and and socially as. well. But. something happened around the time of. the Civil War, and he converted and. actually became an abolitionist, huge.

Union supporter, and um just basically. became patriotic and dedicated this idea. of preserving the Union and abolishing. slavery. Yeah, and he used that museum. as a. a sort of ground zero for his cause. Uh. he had speeches, he had plays that sort. of endorsed this. He had uh Southern Copperheads that were. protesting outside. They threatened his. life. Mhm. And then he said at this. point, "You know what? I might as well. just get into politics. um legitimately." And in April of 1865,

he actually won an election to the. Connecticut General Assembly uh where he. worked really hard to ratify the 13th. Amendment and supported another cause to. uh allow the rights of black people to. vote in Connecticut. Yeah. So, like he. was he was legitimately dedicated to the. cause of abolition, which is totally. bizarre, right? And about this time, too, is when the revisions to his. autobiography are starting to get much. more contrite, much less boastful, um.

and even more apologetic. Uh. so, he he like he something happened, and he was converted to um the right. side of history, I guess you could call. it, you know? Yeah, so here's where fire. number two comes in. After few months. after this election, his museum burned. down. along with the animals and the exhibit, which is super sad. Yes. It's the first. of like two animal fires. Uh he opened a new museum a couple of. months after that. Three years later, that museum burned.

down. Mhm. Didn't want to rebuild that. one. Uh and then finally in the 1870's, like it took a long long time before. he became the P.T. Barnum that most. people know. as the big circus guy. Right. The. Greatest Show on Earth guy. Yeah, he hooked up with Barnum and. Bailey after hooking up with a guy named. William Cameron Coup. or Coue, I'm not sure which one it is. Um but he had P.T. Barnum's Grand.

Traveling Museum, Menagerie, Caravan, and Circus. Yeah, a little wordy. That. was 1871, and then um. did you cover the 1872 fire? No. There was another fire that killed. all the circus animals that the winter. at the winter um. uh camp, which is on the site of where. Madison Square Garden is right now. There was a horrific fire in the winter. camp in 1872, killed a bunch of other. circus animals, which.

uh this is this is why this is one of. the reasons why years later um Barnum. and Bailey's Ringling Brothers Circus. went away was because of animals. Yeah, and he I mean, he was a By the time this. uh fire happened at the What was it. called? The. Hippotheatron? I think so. [laughter]. He uh he was very successful with that. circus he started with Coup or Coue. Uh they made about 400 grand in the. first year, and it was the very first.

circus to kind of do the traditional. thing that we all think of as travel by. train, acrobats, clowns, exotic animals, stuff like that. Yeah. Uh and that's. when it officially was called The. Greatest Show on Earth. So, the Hippotheatron, such a strange word, burns down. Mhm. And then he's visiting his friend in. England, uh John Fish, and this is when. his wife, Charity, passes away. Yeah. And as Jane put it, he was supposedly.

too grief-stricken to return for her. funeral, but the grief must have subsided quickly. because he secretly married Fish's. daughter. Uh at 63 years old, he married. 22-year-old Nancy Fish. Yeah. About 3. and 1/2 months later after his wife. passed. No word about her teeth. No. No, or her. bra size. So, um they got married. secretly 14 weeks after Charity died. And then and when they came to the US, they had a public wedding. 9 months after that.

So, um. yeah, he married her and I guess he was. with her until his death, right? Well, yeah, in 1860 or I'm sorry, 75, he took a break from the circus, got. back into politics, Mhm. and became the. mayor of Bridgeport for a little while. No, I didn't say Bridgeport though. He's. talking trash about them. >> Bridgeport. And apparently he gets a. little on his high horse now because. even though he was a a drinker, pretty. heavy drinker for a while, he quit. drinking and then campaigned against um.

like Sunday sales Yeah. balloons. and kind of got a little self-righteous, it seems like. Yeah, he also sponsored. the Comstock Law in Connecticut, uh. which banned contraception, which uh puts a lot of onus on to the. ladies. Um. and it was in place apparently till. 1965. And there's a really important word in. there, Chuck, sponsored. Like that means. you're the person who brought it to the.

uh General Assembly. Not you didn't just. vote yes on it. Like you're the one who. said, "Everybody, everybody, let's ban contraception for 100 years.". Yeah. >> And and it was successful, actually. So, yeah, he was. >> [snorts]. >> he was a weird dude with a lot of. different weird um thoughts about things. and that were sometimes very. contradictory over time. And then finally, ironically here at the very end of this. podcast, Mhm. in 1880, he partnered with. one James A. Bailey.

for P.T. Barnum's Great London Combined. That's a terrible name for a circus. Worst circus name ever. Didn't even have. the word circus in there. And uh this is when he got Jumbo the. elephant, which uh it was Jumbo was a. legendary attraction until 1885 when. Jumbo was killed by a train. And. probably caught fire, too. And did you. know, we were just in Boston, that Tufts. University, their mascot is Jumbo the.

elephant? No, I didn't know that. Yeah, my buddy Robert explained that to me. And um. apparently Barnum was one of the early. uh. um what do you what do you call the. people who give universities a lot of. money? Uh it uh endowment and. donors. Grant person. Sure. He was all. of that. What is that word? I know what. you're talking about. He was all that to. Tufts. And so Jumbo the elephant became their. mascot. [clears throat] And I think, cuz. it does say in here he.

he displayed Jumbo's preserved hide and. skeleton. I think it was or maybe it is. on display at Tufts. Oh, wow. Um I'm not. sure if it still is, but I think at one. time it was. So, wait a minute. This guy. also gave a substantial amount of money. to help found a university? I don't know found, but to the. university. That's a benefactor, is that. the word? >> Benefactor, yeah. Maybe to found found. it. I'm not sure of the timeline there. Man, that's that's really crazy. He did. a lot of stuff. So, go Jumbos. Yeah, the fighting Jumbos or the. passive-aggressive Jumbos or what?

>> The stomping Jumbos. There you go. That's pretty good. Uh so, Barnum and. Bailey weren't together for too long. initially. They parted ways, but then. again joined in 1887. Ultimately, finally for the Barnum and. Bailey Circus. Yep. They broke up and then they got. back together and then it stayed that. way until 2016, I think. And then the. circus finally closed down. I went to. that thing as a kid. I think we talked. about that. Sure. I did, too. Um and now. we we'll only go to the Big Apple.

Circus, as you know. Mhm. And I took a. long break because Emily and I were. tired of going. And then uh now that we got a kid, my. mom was like, "You know, you got to. start going again.". You have to. So, we went this year. How was it? Uh it's okay, you know. I'm not the biggest circus guy, I've. realized. Are you afraid of clowns? No, not these. Are you afraid of acrobats? >> I can take these clowns. Um no, and actually the acrobats at the. Big Apple Circus are the uh.

the the what's it called? It's the the. famous ones. The family. Oh, the Flying Zambonis? Yeah, or was it Zambonis? Not Zambonis. Uh I don't remember. It's something like. that. >> them. It's still still that family. Wow, that's really that's something. >> And they, you know, they did a great. job, but at the end of the day, I'm just. kind of. about a third of the way through, I'm. looking at my watch, you know. Oh, I got you. I've seen a couple Cirque du Soleils. Those are the last circuses I saw. Yeah, those are okay, but.

>> We we saw the Michael Jackson one in Las. Vegas and man, alive. Was it good? Yeah. There's a Michael Jackson Cirque? Yes, dude. And I have to tell you, like I'm. not some die-hard Michael Jackson fan, but you don't have to be this to. appreciate this. It is amazing. Like like it's worth going to Vegas to. go see. Who's not Michael Jackson? >> Turning around and going home. I don't know. There's probably a few. I'll bet we hear from some Michael. Jackson. >> [laughter]. >> anti-Michael Jackson fans. Uh finally, 1890,

P.T. [clears throat] Barnum has a stroke. uh during a performance. He has one weird, strange wish at the. end of his life is to have his obituary. published before he dies. Yeah. I don't know why he did that. Maybe to. I don't know, either. I think. I don't know, but that's a heck of a way. to end this podcast. It sound Maybe he. wanted to feel the public outpouring or. something. Uh it could be that or he wanted to. proofread it or something. I don't know. But if he wanted if that was what he was.

after, why didn't they just. um. send it to him ahead of time. They. actually published it. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah. Well, we'll find out one day when we die. and go to heaven and meet P.T. Barnum. Agreed. So, uh you got anything else? Nope. There's. probably tons more that we missed. And. if you know something about P.T. Barnum. that we didn't know, let us know. We'll. just add to this guy's story over time, okay? Uh in the meantime, if you want to.

read this great article by James. McGrath, type in P.T. Barnum in the. search bar at HowStuffWorks. Since I. said search bar, it's time for listener. mail. All right, I'm going to call this uh. Unabomber follow-up. Okay. I was into that one. The Unabomber? Yeah. Yeah, that was a. good episode. I thought it was good. >> a good 10th anniversary episode. Milk. Uh hey guys, congratulations on 10. years. Milk milk. I look forward to many.

more. Listen to Unabomber and thought I. would share something that covers a. related, somewhat aspect of the story. About 10 years ago when I was still a. wee law student taking a legal [music]. ethics course, one of the situations we discussed was. Ted Kaczynski and the ethical dilemma. his lawyers faced. Uh criminal defendants have the absolute. right to dictate certain aspects of. their representation like whether or not. to plead guilty, but there are other. aspects of the representation that the. lawyer controls, the most notable being. trial strategy. While lawyers should.

always listen to the client's overall. goals, [music]. sometimes it's necessary to override a. client's wishes on how to achieve their. goals because [music] the client's. desired strategy is either legally. incorrect, unethical, or simply. ill-advised. Kaczynski's case presented. >> [music]. >> an interesting ethical problem for the. attorneys. cuz he refused to allow them to pursue. what they perceived to be his best. defense and his only hope of avoiding. the death [music] penalty, namely. claiming he was not guilty by reason of. mental disease, uh known as the insanity.

defense. The conflict was that on one. hand, >> [music]. >> his attorneys had a duty to zealously. represent him, but Kaczynski objected so. vehemently to the chosen defense that at. one point, he attempted to go pro se, aka represent himself, which would have. been an utter disaster. Uh as you noted, he pled guilty, so. we'll never know what they would have. decided to do had he gone to trial, but. his case is one which most lawyers. thought about or discussed at some point. in their careers. [music]. Uh that is good.

Fordham Law, go Rams. And that is from. Deb. Thanks, Deb. Appreciate that. Yeah, I remember we were kind of saying. like. >> [music]. >> his whole thing was he didn't he pled. guilty because he didn't want to plead. insane because his ramblings would have. been the ramblings of a convicted insane. madman. Yeah, very interesting. Uh again, thanks, Deb. We always love. [music] hearing from lawyers out there. That whole joke about lawyers at the. bottom of the sea being a good start, we. have always found it tasteless. [music].

Sure. >> So, get in touch with us. You can send. us and Jerry an email to stuff podcast. at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from. iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. to your favorite shows.