Selects: Nuclear Semiotics: How to Talk to Future Humans | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hey everybody it's me Josh and for this. week's select I've chosen one of my. favorite episodes in honor of the. birthday of my favorite person my dear. sweet wife Yumi whose birthday is today. since this episode is so cool and Yumi. is too I figure it was just logical and. logical stuff really floats my boat plus. what better way to send off a not too. bad year considering everything. especially the last couple years than. with a real heads scratcher fascinating. interesting episode I hope you enjoy it.

happy birthday to Yumi and happy New. Year to. everybody Welcome to stuff you should. know a production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh Clark there's Charles W Chuck. Bryant there's Jerry over there and uh. this is stuff you should know uh the.

podcast you're about to say this the. blank Edition yeah I was but I couldn't. think of anything it was literally the. blank Edition was it I mean you couldn't. think of anything you were blank no no. that's right it was the blank Edition oh. gosh that's a terrible start Chuck so. how about this just to uh divert. ourselves from that. disaster what was not a disaster were. our live shows we just did oh yeah we we. finally got up uh on stage everyone. since first time since January yeah kick.

the rust off sure in Chicago and Toronto. and both of them were we just killed. they were great yeah every audiences. were great everyone had a really great. time yeah they told us so uhhuh they. seemed to be legitimately meaning what. they were saying yeah it was really. really great to get back on on stage. with you my friend and also also also. hats off to Chicago for showing up like. we called you guys out and you responded. yeah thank you very much and thank you. Toronto for not making us call you out.

but uh there are still tickets remaining. for August 29th in Boston at the Wilbur. and Portland Maine you know we're. venturing up into the Hinterlands of. America right what's next after that but. Canada uh August 30th there are still. plenty of great tickets left there and. then uh the same can be said in October. in Orlando M and October 10th I think I. said October 9th right in Orlando. October 10th in New Orleans yep that's. right Brooklyn I'm not worried about. they all sold out the whole thing all.

three nights a man should we add it. fourth jeez I don't know we'll talk. about it anyway thanks to everyone who. came out it was a lot of fun and uh this. is a good one so you don't you don't. want to miss it yeah so come on out. especially you Portland Maine let's get. with it all right now nuclear semiotics. which I didn't know I loved but I do. really do you remember 99% invisible did. a very famous episode on this very topic. oh I didn't hear that I specifically. avoided going back and listening to it.

because I don't want to be um stunk upon. by its taint does that make sense you. don't want Roman Mars's taint um. stinking on you it's more like it's just. such a classic episode that I don't want. it to like leak in I don't want to. accidentally rip it off yeah well we we. certainly can't 99 invisible this thing. because that is the show that exists at. the top Echelon of this industry sure so. so so do we if sure we're up there all. right but if you like this one if this. stuff like floats your boat you're like. I.

listen to the 99% invisible episode yeah. this thing really triggered a lot of. like synapsis firing for me and I think. like I think I really enjoy this kind. of thought experiment problem solving. stuff oh yeah I think I would really dig. like that part of the zombie apocalypse. m is figuring the stuff out as a team. right cuz the whole time I was reading. this I was think great idea terrible. idea they should do this they shouldn't. do that go sit down yeah you I like the.

cut of your gy it was really cool I dug. this I'd never heard of it so thank you. oh you're very welcome uh I actually. heard of it before Roman Mars made the. episode so I can't really thank him but. well not before he heard of it because I. think it's well known that Roman's first. words were nuclear. semiotics that's. true yeah even before mama that's right. um I could totally believe that actually. yeah uh so what we're talking about as. Chuck said a couple times for those of. you you who don't know is nuclear.

semiotics and that is a very specialized. Branch uh interdisciplinary branch of I. guess science that involves all. basically any field of research that you. can throw at the wall would probably. have some function to play in the field. of nuclear semiotics and to to make a. long story short to do the too long. didn't read version of this TL semicolon. Dr um is nuclear semiotics seeks to. figure figure out how to warn the future.

humans to come or whatever is here sure. let's be honest good point I mean why. discriminate right yeah to warn the. future humans or the future super. intelligent jellyfish whatever to come. hey this is a very dangerous radioactive. dump site that we've put here stay away. yeah it's that easy it sounds easy the. problem is is if you presume that it's. easy you're making a lot lot of. assumptions that aren't necessarily.

going to hold up oh yeah like a lot of. times are like they should just do and I. would even stop halfway through my. thought like no that that wouldn't work. it's true because our languages might be. gone by then our symbols don't. necessarily make sense outside of the. context that we understand them in um. civilization might be ridiculously. Advanced by them civilization might be. in a state of Collapse by then we have. no idea but the point of nuclear. semiotics is to figure out how to come. up with a a um a message that is.

understandable to everybody in any. situation in the future and the the. current state-ofthe-art is let's figure. out how to speak as far as 10,000 years. into the future yeah I mean and that's. like being generous it needs to go. beyond that it does because the whole. point of nuclear semiotics the whole. point of warning the future is this. stuff this nuclear waste that we're. putting into the ground now is going to. be dangerous for tens and tens of. thousands of years yeah plutonium 239.

has a halflife of 24,000 years there's. something called um technetium 99 has a. halflife of 211,000 years so another one. is like 1.7 milliony year half life this. is the nuclear waste that we're creating. now and are putting in the ground yeah. and uh Julia Leighton who is uh one of. our writers who does great work for us. she made a lot of great points which is. like the history of human evolution is.

200,000 years yeah and like we've only. been like reading and writing for how. long about 5,000 less than 6,000 years. yeah so it it's it sounds like like you. said it sounds simple and so many times. I thought I had I thought I had it. cracked right only to think like I was. like why don't they just uh do something. purely Visual and and Stage a play of. people at that site digging in and then. dying and I was like well what do you do. with. like well I'll just put it on a a a DVD.

sure that just plays on a loop right I. like well how you going to power that. thing you know what happens when. everybody's converted to Blu-ray yeah. exactly or you know thought well then. solar put a solar panel up oh yes. that'll last forever but what have it. doesn't what if there's like a forever. nuclear storm or whatever what if the. Sun never shines again on Earth in 8,000. years which could happen that's the cool. thing about thinking into the deep. future is all things it will go wrong.

yeah it makes you realize like how. specific everything you think and know. and understand really is to your current. time yeah it's very cool she brings up. the point about an apple like when you. see the word Apple you don't see the. word apple right you see visualize the. symbol of that is an apple right so it's. like it's almost like the. words very much the words will just not. have meaning anymore at some point right. man well let's dig into love this stuff. you ready let's do it so to start we.

should talk about where this all came. from it came from uh a new type of. nuclear storage solution nuclear waste. storage solution called um long-term. geological. repositories and it is basically digging. into the Earth couple of miles into the. Earth putting our nuclear waste there. again waste that's going to be harmful. to health for tens of thousands hundreds. of thousands of years and Ling it up and.

then covering over the site and then. putting a warning on there and right now. the the general consensus is that salt. beds are the best place to put that. nuclear waste and there's actually some. pretty good reasons why yeah we could do. a an episode on nuclear storage I think. I really want to in and of itself yeah I. don't know if that's a shorty or a long. e it's probably a long e yeah but just. briefly the reason salt beds are. preferable is because the fact that. they're even there suggests that there's. no water if they if there was water they.

would have been dissolved long ago it's. really relatively easy to mine into them. and then what's awesome about salt is. that when you mine a shaft into a salt. bed and you put your you deposit there. and then you pull back out um the salt. bed actually heals itself over like just. a few decades seals itself back up right. yes so you put a container that's been. engineered to hold the nuclear waste. inside for 10,000 years yeah it's also. in a container should right you're.

putting it into a aore hole in the salt. the the salt is going to grow back. around it and in tum it perhaps. permanently yeah in this salt it's very. strong too right it yeah it is fairly. strong I mean like if you're mining. using modern mining equipment it's it's. really easy to mine into right but if. you just have like a pickaxe or. something it's rock to Salt Rock is what. it's called right so there's a lot of. reasons why people have figured out like. this is not a bad idea to inom nuclear.

waste but but here's the thing we can't. just inom it and walk away like we have. a a responsibility for those of us. generating this waste today to warn the. future sure and it's on the future if. they listen to us or not that's on them. right but we have to make them able to. listen to us exactly like we have a. responsibility to do that cuz some. people have proposed like hey let's just. bury and forget about it the chances of. somebody actually finding it are pretty. slim just bury it and forget about it. and that's probably the best the best.

way to go and people said it's not a bad. idea but it's actually a pretty bad idea. see actually I thought that one wasn't. the worst idea it's not that was a. behavioral psychologist he was like and. he wasn't like just forget about it he. was like maybe the smartest thing to do. is to leave it unmarked right because as. we'll see attracting attention to. something like that attracts attention I. know it's interesting thought experiment. right that was that psychologist by the. way was Dr Percy tenenbom really well no. wonder I liked it of the East Hampton. anten bombs so we should point out that.

there's a couple of uh a couple of big. times that these um that this has been. commissioned like hey we need to think. of something uh one for a site that. never happened uh and one for a site. that has happened the one that has. happened it's the only one in the United. States right now only one in the world. as far as they know no it's number three. oh really it's the third largest okay uh. I didn't see what the other two were it. must have been the first in the world. then yeah probably the first in the. world okay yeah which makes sense. because the other two are bigger uh but. this is in New Mexico it's called the.

whip the waste isolation pilot plant and. uh this one they are uh they're actively. guarding for they've committed the. department of of energy is committed to. guarding it with people for 100 years. they've hired Barney F into a 100-year. contract to look over this nuclear waste. for at least 100 years it's not like at. the end of The 100 years are going to. just like put a a padlock on it and walk. away I imagine they will keep guarding. it as as long as they feel like it needs.

guarding uh I don't know if that's true. I don't know man I mean we're talking. about a government run program here yeah. at least 100 years we can at least say. that yes they agreed to that so uh you. know the whole idea arose um before that. though uh what was the other one in. Nevada that's the yucka mountain one. that was the first one right that's the. first one that that uh never happened. right but that's when you know in the. 70s is when this idea sort of came about. and I think it was 1982 when it was sort.

of codified as an official um I guess. science or yeah it is it's a br it's an. interdisciplinary branch of science. nuclear semiotics is and it is it's. because the EPA came up with a rule in. 1982 a law really that said uh 81 I got. that wrong by the way so it's 81 that. they came up with the law uh well it. became a discipline in 1981 okay with. that yucka mountain repository project. and I think from that yucka mountain. depository project because we were.

starting to figure out how to deposit. this stuff for for a long time the EPA. came up with a rule I think it was 1982. that said if you're going to create. these kind of repositories for nuclear. waste you also have to figure out how to. come up with a permanent warning sign. and everybody was like that's no problem. of course and then the EP is said think. about it it's harder than you think they. said just slap that uh that nuclear. waste logo that everyone knows sure and. everyone was like everyone doesn't know. that well it's been around forever.

everyone doesn't know that now much less. in 200,000 years yeah did you see the. how that was created yeah it was a it. was a a group doodle I don't know how. that happens I think that means they. can't ascribe it to one person they know. there was like five people in one of. those giant like Silver Spoons pencils. or Crayola crayon yeah this is a. 1946 uh was it at Berkeley yeah and it. was a group doodle in this science class. and is that a is that an album name or a.

band name group doodle It's like the The. Wiggles or something yeah I think it's. an album title for sure so The Wiggles. group doodle absolutely okay good that's. probably a real thing that's our gift to. you Wiggles uh but I saw this was. interesting in 1948 the symbol uh came. under consideration for wider use. because at first it was just a group. doodle and then the Brook Haven National. Laboratory requested a standardized. symbol of standardized colors for their. radiation safety program MH and there. was more argument about the colors than.

the actual symbol um because they at. first they like you can't use yellow. because we use yellow for a lot of stuff. yeah they wanted to make sure that it. didn't get overused so people would just. become kind of blind to it because they. saw it so much and they were like have. you heard of striper right exactly can't. use yellow and black they were like no I. haven't heard of them like give us 40. years you'll have heard of them believe. me and then in 42 years no one will have. heard of them that's right uh so I think. the original design was um striper was I. saw them in concert we won't even talk.

about that I believe it uh it was. magenta blades on a blue background was. the original design yeah and it was. chosen because it was uncommon but then. in Oakridge Tennessee at the oakd. National Laboratory they they went with. the yellow background in 1948 later on. in 1948 and I guess it stuck that's. where the oakd boys were all scientists. that's right so it was originally. magenta on Blue right yes and the logo. we're talking about for those of you. don't know it's called the the nuclear. trefoil you know it's a circle and then.

three par circles around it blades and. from what I saw one of the original. group doodlers explained it as um it's. supposed to be an atom with activity. around it yeah that's it which I never. saw it before but now that I've read. that I can't unsee it and that is really. what it looks like it's a pretty great. little Doodle but it's like you said. that is not a universally accepted. symbol which is a big problem and it. doesn't. it doesn't evoke like oh an Adam of.

course I know what an Adam looks like I. just saw one go down the street a second. ago and this looks like an Adam it's a. symbolic representation of an atom which. means that after people stop thinking. about what Adams look like maybe a. thousand years or 5,000 years down the. road if something happens no one's going. to look at that and be like oh it's an. atom activity around an atom that must. mean there's radiation here hence this. is a danger sign that's not going to. happen right uh the other thing thing. you would think is just just put up in a.

bunch of languages done yeah here's the. thing languages are disappearing you I'm. going to ask you actually what is your. best guess a language dies out every. blank 9 million. seconds is that right did I nail it you. jerk I got to get out of calculator a. language dies out every 14 days I'm. pretty sure that's 9 million isn't that. staggering what if it was are you about. to do that yeah you keep talking uh so.

that's about 25 languages per year that. die out and um that's really sad it is. and it is very sad and granted these. aren't you know major languages but. they're important to the people who. speak them sure um but that's just sort. of to uh to to get across the point that. throwing it up in a bunch of languages. there's no guarantee and in fact in all. likelihood in in 50,000 years there. won't be English or German or French.

there may not even be humans that's. point we may be what what's the. calculation 446 days that was a little. off okay there there there may we may. all be like post-biological humans you. know uploaded our Consciousness onto. like the internet or something and which. point that really won't matter to tell. you the truth where the nuclear waste is. is buried but who knows it could be an. intelligent species it could be humans. who don't know how to read or write the. the fact is is the stuff that we take. for granted. changes a lot faster than you think um.

and even if it doesn't necessarily die. out the changes that come along are. pretty alarming I found a um I've been. watching a lot of Silicon Valley lately. I told you yeah great show I my um vocal. delivery sounds a lot like. Jared's it's a c you think a. lot and I never really put those two. together well keep an ear out for it now. and see what you think I mean tell tell. me I'm wrong I prove wrong I mean I.

would have to dis dissociate so much. because I like you and Jared is like. such a pedantic bureaucrat oh I love him. I mean he's fun to watch but I wouldn't. say that he's like the most likable. character maybe he is I don't know I. would say pantic bureaucrat is not. entirely off for me no Jared needs a. girlfriend that's his deal okay so I do. not because I have a fine wife that's. right uh so let me give you an example. of how English has changed this this is. a quote from Sir go and the Green Knight.

It Was Written in 1375 oh boy is50 years. ago all right this is in. English the steel of a stiff staff the. stern hit beg gripped that was wounding. with iron into the wands end and I'll be. Graven with green in gravious works and. you should see it spelled oh yeah I mean. I was an English major we had to go. through this stuff it was a SLO do you. have a guess at what I just said yeah. you said that he uh the night sat down. and watch some Silicon Valley that's.

right it's that the Grim man gripped it. by its strong handle which was wound. with iron all the way to the end and. Graven in green with graceful designs so. like that's English 650 years ago. English is still around 650 years we're. talking about thousands tens of. thousands of years exactly so that's a. problem languages evolve languages die. symbols don't quite make sense out of. context so there's a lot of challenges. that face the people who to try to. explain this stuff or figure out how to.

um explain it to future people I think. is a better way to put it that's right. uh they have looked and seio. semioticians are people who who really. wonk on this stuff sure um I think I'm a. amateur semiotician after reading this. that's great but one thing that they're. looking for cuz what you want is ideally. is instant recognition and not something. I mean yeah maybe if you have to figure. it out but what you want is something. that conveys danger right when you look. at it like just steer clear of this. place not come closer and start poking.

around just go away that's right so um. she makes a great point though that like. it's a double-edged sword like you were. talking about earlier if you you know. human beings if you show a extreme ski. or a sign this is Danger Don't ski this. way sure he's going to say braah let's. do it yeah you know give me some. homicide power drink so there's a very. very fine line between warning people. and enticing people yeah even. inadvertently exactly you know I mean.

there's um she she points out haunted. houses cuz I'm like yeah not everybody's. like a Red Bull extreme sports person. but people do like haunted houses too so. w oh that abandoned like scary place is. so creepy let's go there for Halloween. right because maybe Halloween survived. but the English language didn't who. knows um so yeah you you you really walk. a fine line here between warning people. away and saying I dare you right yeah my. whole Jam is I think they need to. uh the what will survive if there are.

humans at all is emotion so I think they. need to appeal to human emotions like. fear uh More Than Words and symbols okay. well let's take a break and we'll get. back into this all right because this is. fun. [Music]. yes. learning stuff with.

josua and. Sh Stu. you all right Chuck so we've kind of. talked about how things go away. languages Fall Away symbols don't make. sense any anymore it's ephemera it is it. really is that's right um so what what. will last what have nuclear semioticians. come up with and should we explain what. semiotics is in.

general what is it I don't even know oh. U just kind of in short hand semiotics. is basically the study of how and why um. signs have meaning okay right like you. were saying earlier how the word Apple. doesn't evoke thoughts of the word Apple. it evokes thoughts of the round shiny. tasty fruit that grows on a tree that's. a sign right in semiotics that's. specifically a cursive sign because it. uses Lang which so what they've done um.

in in many uh cases is and this is a. great idea for stuff like this is to to. have a competition um they had one at at. uh UCLA I think in 2001 called it called. the desert space. competition um and what won that year. was a cactus a yucka cacti glowing blue. right and then the idea was plant a. field of these regular green Cati MH and. then over the the place where you know.

the the waist is the repository and then. if you see the sign of a glowing blue. one I mean I don't think I didn't see. the rest of them but I didn't think this. one was that great it wasn't that great. I'm sorry to the person who came up with. it though I know I think something they. should do is go even further back to. younger children cuz sometime like go to. like an elementary school and ask kids. or a high school right or you just take. each kid out and rub their face in the. sand and be like you see this you stay. out of here no I mean have the kids like.

throw out ideas because I think oh oh I. see yeah I think the I liked my idea I. think a lot of times children can cut. through the to the Simplicity of. something much better than adults can. easily so that's my idea throw it out as. a as a science faere project well I. think that's one of the cool things. about nuclear semiotics is it's so. inviting to like anybody can come up. with a great idea it's just so. confounding but it's also so accessible. yeah we'll get ideas in fact we want to. hear from you if you think you have a.

cool idea that's a good idea like I. guarantee you we're going to get some. good ones yep we're not going to pass. them along or anything so rather than. just like poo pooing the glowing yucka. one there's a here's the problem with. the glowing yucka idea it requires. explanation right. somebody so part of the glowing yucka is. to say these things have been. genetically engineered so that when. there's radiation present they glow so. if you see this glowing it means that. there's radiation here stay away right.

if you lose that that additional story. that has to go along with the glowing. yucka then you just have glowing yucka. and I can't think of a more attractive. thing that's going to draw people to a. site than the legendary glowing yucka. that only glows in this one spot on. earth so that's kind of the problem with. it you know I like this other idea from. that same year a little better that did. not win uh fields of Asphodel which is a. Eurasian Lily. they said let's just cover the site with.

metal blades that Screech when the wind. blows it makes a horrible noise right. not bad here's the problem with that. okay moving Parts okay sure it's been. pretty well established that if you're. trying to convey something to the people. into the distant future you need to have. something that's monolithic and made of. one piece because if you have multiple. parts that's a opportunity for. weathering to occur through the the. place where the two parts meet or. through three parts or five parts and if. it's a moving part just kiss the.

movement goodbye what about this okay I. had the thought earlier today about just. a mountain of razor wire okay here's the. problem with that okay and this is the. same problem also with the um what is. the problem the steel the steel stuff. that move and everything you want to use. you I know but you want to use stuff. that has no value whatsoever not just. financially but usefulness why cuz. someone will say I can Harvest that. razor wire yeah I can go use that to. keep the cows in in my house next door.

yeah but if you have so much of it over. time over 10,000 years people like take. and. take I mean that's why the pyramids are. stripped of like their more attractive. outer they used to have like a a white I. think Limestone shell ENC casement it's. gone because the locals were like oh I. can use that to build a fine little H. myself a Pizza Hut that's exactly that's. what people will do if you place. something of any kind. like that is the beauty of this every.

idea is wrong a hole it's so great it's. pretty great I love it so the um one of. the most often uh cited bodies of work. is from 1982 83 and this was a call for. ideas from the German Journal of. semiotics that basically said the same. thing it's like you know what are your. ideas this one got a little goofy to say. the least uh someone suggested an. artificial Moon as a storage vessel. there's just a huge flaw in that one if.

you ask me I mean I don't even get that. well it was like um how do you make sure. that the information about this site. right stays protected put it into an. artificial Moon and orbit around Earth. but it's like how do you get to the. artificial I didn't get that's what they. meant that that yeah that doesn't make. any sense that's what I think I guess. they were I mean it said uh oh were they. beaming it down to a TV that won't play. that's a different one yeah and that I. just don't understand this at all I. don't understand the radioactive cats. either even though that's a decent band.

name so there they um that was a big. part of the 99% invisible episode on. nuclear semiotics they talked about the. ray cats um and I think they actually. hired a musician to create a song. because just like with the glowing yucka. you have to explain what's going on when. the cats glow you need to stay away so. they had somebody come up with a ray cat. song I Believe for the episode was it. hoodie and the Blowfish yes it was that. was a good guess now this one thought. was had a little I thought it was. interesting at least this uh semiotician.

Nam uh Thomas cbok mhm he said this what. has survived more than anything else. religion right religious texts that date. back you know a couple thousand years in. the Catholic church not a bad start yeah. the ideas that you hear at Catholic mass. today are a couple thousand years old in. some instances and if you go back to the. original text which we can still read. fortunately you can say Yep this is what. they're talking about like those ideas. have survived that long because of the.

the practices they use so interesting. idea but it gets a little goofy yeah. because he thought why don't we almost. create a fake. religion around this thing um uh a a. fearful myth that you can generate. appointing an atomic priesthood to tell. people and tell them to tell future. Generations but I mean I guess the idea. is that it's all false and it's just. just a big madeup story yeah this the. atomic priesthood would know the truth.

and they would indoctrinate people but. out in society around them yeah it would. be a a closely guarded secret because. everybody else thinks that whatever this. fake myth about why you have to stay. away from this haunted evil area is true. when really the atomic priests are the. ones who know uh no actually there's. there's radioactive stuff there here. they just came up with this 3,000 years. ago to scare everybody away but. initially a decent idea as far as trying. to make it or incorporate like what.

religion does but it just definitely. strange it is to me though it is at its. base despicable it's a Despicable idea. because it is purposefully. introducing fearful false Superstition. into the future like we're going to. purposefully introduce fearful false. Superstition into the future just to. scare people off from radioactivity like. what kind of sweeping side effects what. kind of Wars might might start over this. how many people will die to defend this.

fake thing that they don't realize is. fake because Thomas cak came up with. this idea to keep people away from a. single site in New Mexico right that's. crazy it didn't far too well either. among his uh colleagues no and. rightfully so because again it's a. Despicable idea so he was on the human. interference task force we mentioned the. um the Nevada site that was what was uh. what was launched for that yucka. mountain side back in 81 from 81 to 83. so as whatever cbi's original idea was.

he had like some. other closely related ideas that were. great though yeah like he's not like. just a total nut job hack it was like I. think it was just a a misfire for in an. otherwise illustrious career I think I. don't know that much about him but um. one of his other ideas was okay well. let's take the the atomic priesthood. away let's take the religion and all. that stuff away and let's just give them. like the facts but but let's figure out. a way to make sure that those facts get. passed down and what he came up with was.

called a meta message where it's a. message that says this is this place has. nuclear radiation it can kill you you. need to stay away from it and we invite. you to take this message and translate. it into whatever languages you guys have. on Earth at the time assuming you can. read this right but if you do that often. enough right there will always be. somebody who can translate it oh sure. and then that way you form a bridge. between now and as far into the future.

as people are around to read and and add. their own interpretation or their own. translation of it but then you want to. leave the original so that if there's. ever like a disagreement about what some. what word meant hopefully somebody can. go back language to language to language. and connect them so that they can see. the original uh version yeah but like. what if a society develops an isolation. that knows none of these languages. you're just totally post yeah that's. when the symbols come in right so what.

they settled on as a panel though in 81. from 81 to 83 was uh what's called. long-term communication was going to be. the most effective thing like kind of. what you were just talking about right. and they said A system that combines. physical markers and archives that cover. the two major forms of this long-term. commun uh communic direct and successive. uh direct utilizes markers and uh. successive is humans like you were. talking about I guess with this meta. message or I guess you could write it.

down but it's still humans carrying a. message through time well it's more like. a direct one is that like you can write. an inscription on a monument and that. Monument is going to deliver that. message directly to people 10,000 years. from now yeah I mean it's a physical. thing right whereas with successive it's. kind of passed along like a game of. telephone exactly and you know how that. goes right it can get a little hinky. that's right but it's always fun at a. slumber party for sure so they came up. with multiple ones like you were saying.

um the they settled on a monument that. had a um massive stone structures. remember you want monoliths they're. engraved with warnings in all currently. known languages it's a lot of languages. you want a buried Vault that has all the. info you need about radioactivity about. the site all that stuff sure you want a. bunch of barriers around the site not. necessarily to definitely keep people. out but enough to basically say hey hey. we're trying to impede progress here. yeah I mean to me that's one of the most. obvious ones if like you see a huge wall.

again it might entice you but it for. sure indicates to any culture that like. you're not meant to come Beyond this. right and then um the the last one is a. network of archives basically the same. information you would have in that. buried Vault right but elsewhere. scattered around the world so if. something happens to the buried Vault. somebody can come across the archives. somewhere and be like oh wait wait we. want to stay out of there right and. along with that they said while at it. can we can we at least like all agree. around the world on a nuclear warning.

symbol right if it's the troil or. whatever let's just all codify that as. the thing which is not the case right. now no there's was a triangle with an. arrow pointing down and then in the head. of the arrow was the biohazard symbol. which is not great because you want. something that's going to be so simple. that even as people that confus me I. need to see it I guess yeah it's even. when you see it you're like wait what um. but you want something simp enough so. that as people kind of create a Shand. version of it it still retains its its.

meaning right or visually all right so. that stuff was the yaka project in the. early 80s uh they decided not to do that. they just uh pack packed it up put it. away and then it all came back again. with this New Mexico plant right when. the department of energy said once again. hey we need to think of a sign and ass. symbol or or whatever you can you know. come up with and we need the best and. the brightest thinking of this so call. up Carl Sean get me Sean give me Sean.

give me Percy Tenon bomb stat uh and. this guy named John lomberg who's a. science writer and space illustrator and. he had worked in semiotics before for. NASA on their mission to Mars Sean was. an ill health so he declined to come. yeah but he sent a message from the. president I guess that said skull and. crossbones dude done yeah Universal. everyone knows it he gave a really good. example he said it has um. it's marked the lentils of cannibal. dwellings the flags of pirates the.

Insignia of ss divisions and motorcycle. gangs like he makes a pretty good point. a lot of people out there see a skull. and crossbones and know it means like. danger sure problems yeah it means this. will be you yes you know you'll be a. skull and so the the working group for. the whip um project they said no that. doesn't work it's a yian archetype it. doesn't really exist outside of the West. yeah to me I'm like no Sean was. definitely on to something I think so I.

mean tell me if you go to to China and. hold up a sign with a skull on Pro. crossbones go I would think so wouldn't. they I mean that's a dire warning isn't. it or not I think their point is is that. the skull used to be like a momento Mor. where it meant like rebirth and prepare. for death so they could be like oh. wonderful a skull and crossbones sure. but to me that is the one enduring. symbol that's always going to be around. as long as there are humans because what.

happens when you die and rot what's left. your skull every human knows that even. humans in the future are going to know. that even ones that are in like a post. collapse tribes we're running around. like and have lost all of the languages. that are around today they're going to. know what a skull looks like or what a. skull means or at least one of them's. going to be like wait I don't think this. is saying that the rainbow's coming um I. think it means like death or danger all. right let's take another break yeah sure. and we'll come back and talk about uh.

the the approach that the whip panel. took and what they came up with right. after. [Music]. this learning stuff with. josua and. Sh stop you.

you know I got to defend Sean That's My. Boy sure love that guy someone should. ask uh Neil degrass Tyson sure why not I. bet he's got a good idea or two I I'll. bet they have asked he's Atlanta for a. show oh yeah where Fox I think cob. Energy Center oh yeah that's I think. that's even more seats than the fox no. it's less oh sorry I think it's like. 3,000 people which is nothing to you. know put up a stink about that's a lot.

of folks we have not hit that no we're. not no we haven't did you hear the star. talk I was on oh no was it good it was. pretty good yeah if I do say so myself. supposed to be like rapid fast uh. responses uhhuh we got through like four. questions in an hour CU you like rapid. fast response is not my specialty Neil. let me let me just do a little. distracting here I'm more deliberate. uh all right so speaking of deliberate. the whip panel was very deliberate and.

methodical they divided it into teams. and um approached it from the the two. things we were talking about direct and. successive forms of communication. debated a lot deliberated a lot the. recommendations uh they had two. proposals and they did overlap a little. bit uh what I thought was pretty smart. is they both had a multi-leveled. approach from the surface down yeah that. got more specific and intense as you. went down yeah the first one was. basically like you dingdong this is. dangerous go away exactly that's like.

level one and then level two is like. okay ding-dong And your kind of smart. friend explain to ding-dong that the. reason this is dangerous because there's. something buried here and it's going to. hurt you all right we should should we. don't talk about the real things oh sure. I thought I was uh so group. a this was theirs they studded the. surface of the site with what they. called menacing Earthworks so a field of. spikes and then a big massive disc. painted to look like a black hole I.

didn't quite get that part that's so. dumb I get the spikes I I think it's the. yeah of course but the the black I think. it's supposed to just mean like a void. or chaos I don't know I'm not sure I. could see how you would think that that. was kind of universal like nobody wants. to fall into a hole or something and. maybe it evokes that kind of like stay. away all right uh then they have large. markers uh all around the site which. like you said are the really basic. messages and the warnings uh including. and I thought this is so interesting uh.

faces that invoke Edvard munches the. scream the ones I saw were the the. scream yeah like it was a line drawing. of the guy from the screen of people. yeah like in great Agony and pain that. to me is it isn't bad I don't know. though is that more universally. understood than a skull and crossbones I. don't know or or or if art survives or. people like oh I wonder if that. painting's well I think what they're. saying is and seans kind of feel this. way is that Edvard monk so perfectly.

nailed the scream that even without the. art like if you see that you understand. that that person you're seeing is in. agony did I say. Munch no I think you said monk did I did. I say Munch you said monk I might have. said Munch no you said I think you said. Monk Is it munch I I think it's probably. Monk Is there's no way his name is Munch. I'm almost positive you said M Jerry can. you rewind for a. second Munch oh you did say munch I. would have sworn you said monk so group.

a below the surface uh this is when they. actually start talking about nuclear. waste what it does to you uh the details. about the structure and all that. stuff right where not bad well they they. teach a little bit about radio activity. so Group B uh this was they went super. informative and really uh what they. relied on was that people had a little. bit of knowledge in the future about. stuff like this but they also trusted. that that people didn't have to just be. spooked or scared or something like that.

that that it's like here is the facts. and information here's why you want to. stay away from that yeah their big above. ground work was uh these big earn walls. in the shape of the nuclear troil not. bad I imagine you'd have to see it from. above to even know though what that was. yeah but that's that's part of the one. of the requirements was that you you. want it to be um easily visible not just. with human cognition but like remote. sensing too right so like magnetic. surveys they they they said we should.

put some magnets in here yeah not just. from when you walk up to it right so and. you also have to be able to see it from. your flying saucer exactly uh and then. inside the walls they have uh at various. steps have these big markers and here's. where they use like symbols and. pictographs uh all kinds of languages uh. writing in different languages and then. more human faces increasingly contorted. in agony as go down yeah it looks to me. like the guy's getting drunker and.

drunker yeah yeah that's what it looks. like well maybe that means there's a a. happening bar exactly that's how I would. take it if I were a future human post. collapse got to go got to go down here. there were also pictograms you're just. like digging through the sand to get to. there also pictograms that showed like. under the ground like real easy to. understand drawings of the radioactive. waste the water groundwater flowing. through it taking the radioactive waste.

up to the plants which are then eaten by. the humans in the picture one of whom. dies yeah which makes sense you don't. need to understand anything about. radioactivity you don't need to be able. to read anything it's a really like it. makes sense especially if some people. are sitting there thinking about it was. the final image of skull and crossbones. or or a pile of bones no it was like a. person three people standing and one of. them the last one is like dead and I. think he might even have X's For Eyes. well I was about to say though I mean if. you think about 20,000 years from now. may maybe they're like oh this induces a. nice nap maybe like but to your point.

though like the bones right is where you. need to end up right yeah maybe somebody. would be like oh this these veggies here. give you a great buzz if you grow them. on this ground yeah X's for eyes right. yeah the bones do make a lot more sense. I think Sean was right that's that. should be a t-shirt Ste should know. t-shirt Sean was right s was right don't. even need to have any context we're. going to get an email in a few days from. that guy from the estate of Carl s. saying do not make that t-shirt so what. did they go with in the end.

though they went with um a earth and. work Earth and berm basically to provide. an obstacle um and to to block easy. access some granite slabs monoliths that. have warnings written in seven languages. yeah Navajo and then the six languages. of the UN so Arabic Chinese English. Spanish French and Russian correct. um which makes a lot of sense but then. they took Thomas COK up on his idea they.

kind of built on the earlier religion. right exactly um and they left blank. spaces or they in their plan they leave. blank spaces on these slabs for future. generations to add their own. translations of the inscriptions that's. a good idea it's a great idea and the. faces of humans and pain and anguish. right that did survive in the end so. that was the final. report on this whip panel it's a pretty. good idea makes a lot of sense because.

it not only so there are two two groups. that they're trying to say stay away not. not really like Urban explorers or. Thrill Seekers or whatever because they. they would have they would have. virtually no chance of getting down to. the actual radioactive material two and. half miles the people they were worried. about were techn technological Advanced. civilizations that were drilling for. resources right like an accident like. God help this this um this this waste. disposal site if salt becomes incredibly. important in the future right and then.

um less Advanced civilizations that. could accidentally um change the flow of. groundwater to go through the salt bed. through massive like irrigation projects. it covers all of it yeah my whole thing. is just make it. inaccessible why is it in New Mexico why. isn't it out you know well that's I mean. that's pretty inaccessible it's not as. access inaccessible as you know know. Siberia no some one of the. recommendations for nuclear waste.

disposal is shooting it into space just. send it out in the outer space and. forget about it and if you believe in. the familymy Paradox that it says we're. the only intelligent life in the. universe man more power to you yeah. that's actually not that bad of an idea. it's a horrific idea but it's actually. kind of a good idea too yeah but then I. wonder about the danger and the risk. involved I mean we've seen Rockets blow. up and space shuttles blow up that would. be bad like what if the thing that. they're shooting it out there. malfunctioned or something that'd be. really bad that'd be really bad that's a.

great point it's like all of our nuclear. waste has just been uh released oh into. the atmosphere yeah no that's a great. great Point Chuck so here's the thing is. all of this just wasted effort because I. was getting so into this stuff and then. the end of this article was a real like. sad trombone yeah because it seems like. seems like nobody really even cares the. people that matter well the first the. first group like their whole thing will. will probably never be implemented. because the yucka mountain project got. shut down right but the whip group may.

actually have their their plan come to. fruition because it is an EPA rule that. you have to create this kind of marker. and they've gotten until about 2040. until they estimate the place is going. to shut down so it's entirely possible. that in 2040 or sometime in the hundred. years after 20 240 when the doe stops. protecting the site or the dod um they. may implement this Earth works and these. 16 granite slabs and we we may live to. see something like this well outside of.

the US it seems like no one is super. concerned uh Sweden in 2011 had an. application to build a a repository in. force Mark and in there in their literal. application they basically said you know. what we're going to worry about that. later yeah in 70 years when this thing's. finished they said see this can we just. kicked it 70 years down the road and the. Swedish national archives uh they. consulted on their application they said. that's really insufficient it said it. gives the impression that one intends to.

postpone important documentation efforts. until the closure of the repository in. 70 years and it's like it doesn't give. the impression it literally said that. right so uh I think they're being Ultra. polite yeah I think well Sweden right. good people uh in the US though don't. tell ASAP Rocky then that uh don't even. know what that means that's a singer. right yeah he's he's a rapper he's in. prison in Sweden right now I did not. know that oh man what what he do he got. into a fight with some Swedish kids and.

it may or may not have been their fault. it looks on video like they definitely. provoked it really but the king of. Sweden is like sorry rule of law applies. to everybody including super famous. Americans well true Donald Trump called. him to try to get the thing resolved at. the behest of Kanye West oh God and. apparently it just made everything worse. and now the king of Sweden is like. there's no chance he's getting released. early wow man where have I been this is. reality I know what I just said is. actual fact it actually happened here in.

2019 everybody humans are the far future. can you believe it humans of the near uh. John lomberg that guy we were talking. about earlier who was on that original. 1991 whip panel he told Vice just a. couple of years ago um a lot of us had. been around the block a few times before. cuz you know he was back then uh doing. the same thing and knew this is going to. be a report the government only did and. this is the us and we're putting more. thought toward this than anyone yeah. which is really surprising he said uh.

they only did this because they needed. to show compliance they didn't really. care what we said and then uh in from. the 1981 human interference task force. uh during the competition they basically. said the most effective sign will be the. dead bodies of those foolish enough to. ignore which makes sense whatever sign. so basically like who cares someone will. do someone will get in there and they'll. all die and then that'll be the big. warning right which makes makes sense if. if humans are in communication around. the globe and you've got the same. warning around but if they're not then.

it's catastrophe catastrophe catastrophe. but at least we fulfilled our part of. the bargain where we really tried to. warn everybody the greed you got. anything else Nah if you will indulge me. I would like to plug the end of the. world with Josh Clark the what the end. of the world with Josh Clark if uh if. like thinking about things in like far. deep time and the future of humanity and. all that stuff kind of FL your boat I. would recommend my little podcast series. the end of the world of Josh Clark for.

sure this is right up your alley thank. you Chuck uh and since Chuck said right. up your alley it's time for listener. mail hey guys we are strangers but we. aren't you've been with me during the. most challenging times of my life I've. listened to your show for about seven. years I'm an English teacher and my. students are tired and and making fun of. me because I always start lessons with. so I was listening to stuff you should. know uh I went through a huge life. change recently I was in a relationship. for 5 years engaged for four of them uh. and moved from Phoenix to Charlotte.

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