Selects: MOVE: Or When the Philly Police Dropped a Bomb on a Neighborhood | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hey everyone it's Josh here and for this. week's select I've chosen our July 2019. episode on the Move bombing it's a very. disturbing little known event in. American history when the Philadelphia. police department dropped a firebomb. onto a row home where a radical group. was HED up about half of whom were. children it ended as anyone would expect. in terrible tragedy I hope you get a lot. out of this. episode.

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh there's Chuck there's Josh got to. get used to this Chuck we will. eventually it's the new normal Yep this. is stuff you should. know the uh I can't believe this. happened Edition one of many one of many.

yeah they sparked off a lot of ideas too. oh yeah yeah like how the Phillies work. no what's up with the Philly. fanatic that's the green one right yeah. that's a great character. sure. so let's dispense with all that okay. yeah this is going to be a long one so. let's just jump in okay so uh back in. 1985 in May Philadelphia Police. Department became the first first and to.

this point only Police Department to. drop a bomb on American soil no police. department has ever bombed anything in. the history of America but they did and. they happened to bomb a house that was. occupied at the time with 13 people. seven of which were children and the. people in this house were members of an. organization called. move o all caps but it's not an acronym. nope um and they did this because move.

had made themselves quite a nuisance in. the neighborhood to say the least and. there was basically by this time in May. 1985 a uh a. bitter feud between move and the. Philadelphia Police Department and on. May 13th it came to a fiery and tragic. end it's a nice setup thank you we. should have music playing or something. thank you hopefully Josh will do that. cuz God knows Jerry is not going to.

she's not anywhere anyone knows where. she is so you want to go back in time. and talk a little bit about move and. their Origins and then go forward in. time I would like to isn't that what you. said okay so move is still around yeah. um at times over the years they've been. called a cult uh they've been called um. a black liberation movement back to. Earth a terrorist group Animal Rights. group there are all these things uh to a. certain degree here and there um. although the the leader W Mr um Vincent.

lepart who uh Everyone by the way if you. hear us say the name so and so Africa. right once you become a member of move. you take on the last name of Africa. right which even though they they. weren't strictly uh a group for. African-Americans they had white people. early on and Puerto Rican too they uh. definitely kind of got that WP a little. bit more because of the Black Power. movement and the fact that the leader. was black changed his name to Africa and. asked everyone else to change their last. name to Africa but UL Al not legally I.

don't think no no um but ultimately it. was well they wouldn't have done it. legally because that's part of the. system and the system was one of the. things they real against there were. basically two prongs to John Africa's. philosophy one was that basically all. life is important and equally important. yeah so there was a lot of animal rights. stuff there was a lot of not eating meat. um ostensibly um oh was there. vegetarianism in there there there was. although they weren't strict vegetarians. no they um but yes but there was a.

animal rights and protection in the the. sanctity of. life and then the second was that the um. the system as they called it was. inherently flawed because everything. that was created by humans was flawed. and therefore not not only should not be. used but the the whole system should be. taken down and replaced with a much more. natural um. animalistic philosophy and way of life. yeah so that includes includes uh.

electricity that includes like cooking. meat um like these kids ate raw chicken. believe it or not yeah the kids who are. raised in the move movement uh and this. is. um this story would make a lot more. sense if this was on like uh some. deserted island and someone was moving. there to start this utopian society on. an island this is uh a very interesting. story in that it happened in a densely. populated area of row houses and West. Philadelphia born and raised not where.

you. would I can't not think of that whenever. I hear West Philadelphia I thought of it. too. um it's when you go back and look at the. footage and by the way there's a great. documentary called Let It Burn uh let. the fire burn that you should pay for. online I did that's good on Amazon Prime. and uh well I'm a Prime member so so am. I okay still had to pay to rent it. though cuz Amazon's part of the system.

that's right uh where was I going uh you. were saying that it would make more. sense on a a deserted island than wood. in a densely populated neighborhood in. Philadelphia yeah so when you're. watching this documentary and there's so. much footage um it's crazy to see this. house this row house yeah uh set up with. um you know farm animals at times in the. front yard heavily fenced in fortified. like a fortress yeah sometimes people. standing outside with guns um even. though as we'll see later these guns.

were later found out to be not capable. of firing bullets which means well I. guess it's still a gun but it means it's. not a weapon it's a club yeah sort of um. but at the very least it's just it's an. odd setting for this story it is and. when you watch that documentary that. house sticks out like a sore thumb like. this they had Amish people probably an. hour and a half away from this doing the. same thing out in the middle of the. country yes not the exact same thing but. you know what I'm saying but you can't. get a good uh cheese steak in Amish.

Country much less a good raw one you can. get good stick candy because they know. what they're doing with that stuff nice. furniture butter sure uh what was it rum. springa where they get to go crazy or. whatever and see if they want to live. the Amish life I think yeah I think that. was it that was a good one long time ago. but anyway it's a very interesting. setting for the story um it got caught. up in uh or maybe unfairly pegged as. Black Liberation like I said sort of. because of the time mhm in which it.

happened which was in the in the 70s and. early 80s uh when the Black Panther. Party uh was in power there was a former. black panther that later would join the. move movement yes but from what I saw in. that documentary that person was. interviewed and he makes it sound like. rather than bringing the Black Panther. ideas to that's why he yeah he he took. on movees ideals rather than the and. discarded the Black Panthers ideal yeah. I think he was disillusioned with the. Black Panthers because of the violence.

and it should be pointed out that um. that Africa's whole thing was. was his whole thing was non-violence but. it wasn't like that was at the Forefront. of like his everyday. talkingspy right which was a real. problem in this neighborhood for. everyone this you know black. neighborhood they didn't want him there. either no that's don't drop a bond on. them right which is what one of them.

being interviewed very clearly was like. we didn't want this to happen but you. know they were a threat to our. well-being here in the neighborhood yeah. and they were also deliberately. provocative they they purposefully made. a nuisance out of themselves because. part of move's um philosophy was waking. everybody else up and doing it in a. really aggressive hostile agitation. threatening way supposedly some. neighbors reported that they were. directly threatened by this group which. is a problem too I mean that's.

definitely a couple steps up from um. agitating or aggravating people. threatening them is different sure but. at the very least you know imagine being. a neighbor who has lived in this house. for 20 years and all of a sudden there's. this organization right living there and. at 300 in the morning is just blasting. out you know these mfers and that are in. charge are effing this and effing that. and yeah like I felt sorry for these. citizens oh yes you know there's a lot.

of empathy like to be dispersed among. many parts of the story yes but the. story also this basically this story has. two types of people in it um villains. and Innocents yeah sure that's virtually. who there's there's one hero that you. can point to and he doesn't even appear. in this article he was in the. documentary um which we'll talk about. him for a minute later but it's mostly. like just people the adults acting badly.

yeah and the children or the the the. people in the neighborhood who are. innocent bystanders or Pawns in this. whole thing victims yeah for sure for. sure because when you're talking about. like blaring your your um philosophy in. a very hostile um foulmouthed. way if you see the pictures of the house. like those loudspeakers that they have. at like stock car races or whatever. that's what they had posted out on that. house it wasn't just some guy with the.

bullhorn or like that that um. walkie-talkie thing that Homer Simpson. had at the yard sale episode you can. hear this along the whole block right in. every direction yes and if you were. anywhere near them if your house was. next door even a couple doors down you. heard them night and day and it was a. real problem yeah so we should back up a. little bit and uh give a little bit of. the background here before the. 1980s uh happened and they move into the. second house on oage Avenue uh 6221.

um they lived at a different house in. the late 70s and there was a different. mayor in Philadelphia at this time mayor. Rizzo who was a scumbag tough talking. like scumbag yeah he was a scumbag I'm. just goingon to say it I saw archival. footage of the man and he was a strong. man scumbag yeah he was one of these. guys you know and we'll see what. happened here it was uh he was not in. charge anymore but it was remnants from. that attitude basically that he laid. down in the city which is like he was in.

charge in 78 though oh yeah yeah I'm. talking about the the bombing M um so in. 78 there was a standoff with the police. uh we had talked about the guns earlier. it was later found out that these guns. weren't capable of firing they didn't. know that at the time but at the very. least uh the cops. overacted or overreacted at the uh at. the Declaration of Mayor Rizzo and there. was a shooting there was an officer that. was shot and killed and it it was just a.

really bad scene so even just a little. bit before that too there was um a there. was a confrontation between move and the. Philadelphia police where one of the. move members babies like a. two-month-old um died yeah and the move. memb said the cops did this like like. this baby died from this confrontation. with the police so like that kicks that. off the police eventually raid the the.

move house in. 1978 and one of the officers get shot. and killed in this raid and so you've. got some real bad blood Brewing between. these two groups yeah and during that. raid uh Delbert Africa one of the. members was and you can see footage of. this it was all captured on camera uh. just beaten on the street while laying. on the sidewalk by these cops while he. was surrendering yeah so uh to say that. there was bad blood is sort of an.

understatement it was uh you had on one. side a um what you could at least Define. as a public nuisance in this. neighborhood you had on this other side. these this zealous mayor who just wanted. to get rid of them period right not like. let's meet let's talk let's see if we. can all work together uh they were they. were 100,000% Ed odds with one another. right so the the police officer that. died um the move side said we didn't.

shoot that guy It was friendly fire that. got him right Phil the Philadelphia. Police Department didn't agree with that. story and so on like a personal level. like not just an organizational level. but to a cop the cops hated move and. these people just continued on yeah in. Philadelphia and actually stepped up. there um making themselves a public. nuisance uh because nine of their. members were arrested for the murder of.

that police officer and convicted yes. and sent to jail for decades yeah 30 to. 100 years is what they're each sentenced. for uh we'll talk about what happened to. them toward the end but uh so so just to. kind of like like just paint this one. last stroke on this this picture we're. painting here the cops had a vendetta. against move because one of their own. was killed during The Siege and move had. a vendetta against the cops because nine. of their people were put in jail one of.

them was beaten and a baby had died on. their side okay all right let's take a. break and we'll come back right after. this and talk more about what happened. in. [Music]. 1985. [Music].

all right so whether or not this was a. cult is uh some people debate that John. afria is very much on record saying it's. an. organization um is that relevant I don't. think so I don't either um I think it's. just an attempt to discredit them oh to. call them a cult uh yeah I don't know I. think it's all we're talking about.

though oh yeah yeah I'm not like. criticizing you or anything like that. I'm just saying like when people toss it. around like oh they were a cult yeah. there there were some like. characteristics that that you could say. well it's kind of cult-like or whatever. let's put it this way if it was on a. deserted island then I think people. would have straight up called them a. cult the fact that it was in a. neighborhood in West Philadelphia made. it seem a lot less so I hear you but if. he was like come here and live on this. island with me right then it would have. straight up been called a cult let me. rephrase what I was saying I don't.

dispute that they may have been a cult. but again it's that well does that mean. that they should have had a bomb dropped. on them I don't think anyone thinks that. okay so uh like I said there were kids. there that were um forced to eat raw. fish raw chicken um the adults could. cook their meat which was uh there were. definitely some double standards going. on there their rationale was that our. bodies are used to this. but we want to raise you pure from the.

start so you're only going to eat raw. foods yeah they had a lot of exceptions. not just that um like the anti-. technology thing where they had like a. wood burning stove for heat and that was. it right no they Ed candles instead of. light bulbs that kind of stuff but they. also had phones and they drove cars. right so there was a lot of um weird. exceptions in in loopholes and and holes. in general in John Africa's uh. guidelines as he called them yeah as for. one of the more uh well the the the only.

child that survived this uh experience. Birdie Africa Michael Ward uh he said in. 1995 I'm still afraid of them of mooves. some of the things that went on there I. can't get out of my head bad things I. haven't told anyone except my for my. father but I'll tell you this I didn't. like being there they said it was a. family but a family isn't something. where you're forced to stay and you. don't want to right uh and his. contention was that the kids were always. trying to get out of there and run away. is too little to know how too little and.

you know naked they were naked they were. Mal nursed um they were uh like the only. toys they had they had to hide because. they weren't supposed to have them. because it's technology and human made. was unsanitary yeah there was um you. know part of part of what move was into. was growing their own food so they would. compost like in the alley behind the. house or on the roof or something like. that they had they built an animal. shelter in the alley so. um there was a lot of really um uh like.

not okay conditions to raise kids in let. alone like adults to live in but raising. children um it was a there were some. really bad decisions and choices or bad. outcomes from some of John Africa's. philosophy yeah it's weird because it's. like at the heart of this it's this Back. To Nature movement you know where you. want them to be on a deserted island so. bad not even a deserted island like go. out into a like there's there's.

Countryside not too far outside of. Philadelphia it is a little weird it is. it's very strange because on one hand. I'm like yeah this Animal Rights group. and they're Back To Nature and they're. issuing the things of man but they're. doing it in the most like aggressive. antagonistic way possible yes in the. middle of a city it's like I don't I. didn't know what to think about any of. this except obviously you don't go in. there and firebomb the place right. that's like the one thing I was clear on. right is you don't start a war in the. middle of a neighborhood right it's true. which is what happened basically. um the neighbors wanted move out uh they.

they fire filed a bunch of complaints. over the years uh to get them shut down. and the city didn't really know what to. do at this point um at this point there. was a different mayor um mayor good so. this was the first black mayor of. Philadelphia who actually was elected on. this um reform ticket basically to get. rid of Rizzo get rid of the corruption. the racism Rizzo had and his.

administration had fostered because he. was police chief first and then became. mayor who good was or Riz Rizzo and he. basically after that 1978 raid um. there's footage of him just. basically hopped up and boasting about. how how militarized the Chicago PD was. now and how like they could I think he. actually said he said we're ready for. war yeah we could go down to Cuba and. take them if we wanted to right now just. really like boasting about this not like.

oh man you know this was this is a. tragedy or whatever even however you. want to say it like he was boasting like. come on who's next kind of thing and. this is this was the mayor at the time. yeah so Wilson good comes along is like. not that we're going to take a different. tax here and try to promote more unity. and he was actually pretty successful in. a lot of ways in that respect as far as. the city officials go I I I really kind. of like mayor good. because he took responsibility for it.

yeah even stuff he didn't do just. because he was the mayor he he he put. himself in as accountable all right so. should we fast forward yes the stage was. set we know what happened in the 70s we. know the relationship between this. neighborhood with this group this group. with this city and the cops and so uh. they decide that they're are going to um. extract the every person from that house.

that was the plan is we are going to. remove The Move Organization from the. house on Osage Avenue uh in this article. says they didn't have a plan that's not. true no uh they had a plan that just was. not executed well and went really. pear-shaped really fast and then they. didn't have a plan right but the. original plan was to uh they had built. The Move Organization had built a this. pretty fortified bunker on top of their. building yeah as far as homemade bunkers. go yeah not bad which gave them a. Supreme tactical Advantage if you know.

anything about uh War you know Higher. Ground is is always going to win out. sure or if designed a castle or. something you know sure Castle designers. right they know. warmongers uh so the idea was to create. a diversion on the roof uh in which time. police officers or SWAT and everybody. would um would go inside and forcibly. remove people by any means necessary in. mayor Goods words but the first the. first part of that was water cannons and.

tear gas right and they were very. surprised when these water cannons that. were just I think they shot like a. thousand gallons a second or some crazy. amount of water they just left them on. yes two of them shoot like and they. fully expected to basically take most of. this house down like it was a brick row. home um but they expected it to to take. the non brick parts off including that. that structure on top that right that. Lookout um and they were very very.

surprised when two things didn't happen. when that structure didn't come down. despite the water cannons being directed. at it for. hours and the people not coming out. despite tear gas being shot into the. house right and that is like you said. earlier when they planing went went to. the to the um Birds yeah toilet sure. went down the toilet and they said well. what do we do now yeah like our whole. plan doesn't work I've got an idea let's.

start shooting at the house instead yeah. so what they didn't know this whole time. was that they were all hiding in a. basement garage yeah so all of this. water raining down on the roof wasn't I. don't probably wasn't even getting to. them probably not or maybe it's not like. uh it's not like they were up to their. necks in water in the basement and like. drowning or anything like that no but. they later said that the tear gas was. everywhere sure um but apparently it. wasn't potent enough maybe they used. expired stuff and we should step it back.

one one step Chuck before this raid. actually started they went house to. house to the neighbors and said you guys. grab all your clothes we need you gone. for 24 hours cuz we're about to do what. you guys have wanted us to do for years. yeah we're going to do it so you need to. get out here they towed trucks from oage. Avenue uh they towed every car they had. the the gas shut off the electricity. shut off there was a Siege yeah they. basically tried to just vacate the block.

uh and they did to yeah and they did I. mean I think some people stayed when. they shouldn't have but it's like with. any evacuation they got as many people. out of there as possible right they're. like you'll be back in your house. tomorrow okay so so the the whole block. and like a couple of blocks a couple of. streets on either side are cleared yeah. the water's been um used it's not. working the the tear gas is not working. so. supposedly the first shots came from the. house. right but everybody all Witnesses cops.

firefighters news people say that the. first shots were automatic fire it's. been conclusively proven that no one in. the move house had an automatic weapon. so if the first shots were automatic. then that means the cops fired first and. that's what people seem to believe is. that the cops started this yeah and a. lot of this documentary it's uh really. compelling because it's footage from the. commission afterward and you get like. the real deal testimony firstperson.

testimony from all the major players. including uh the police chief what was. his name uh Gregory Sambor yeah Sambor. who was he identified it as automatic. like his sworn testimony said it was. automatic weapons and they're like well. how do you know and he's like I know. what an automatic weapon sounds like. right and they're like well what move. didn't have automatic weapons he's like. I don't know about that yeah he's like I. don't know how to explain that then but. they fired first right he just kind of. stuck to his guns right everying time. yeah he was a piece of work himself uh.

he was definitely In The Cut From the. Same Cloth as uh Mar Rizo I think so. yeah so they decide to start shooting uh. at this point because regardless of who. shot first it becomes like Vietnam on. the city block all of a sudden and it's. not like I mean they cleared it out but. when you see this news footage I mean. there's people everywhere sure watching. there are news cameras and and anchors. everywhere on the streets like oh like. we should get behind the car now because.

it's raining bullets everywhere yeah uh. it's just freaky to see this happening. in like a city block in the United. States yeah the cops the cops later on. estimated that they fired about 10,000. rounds they ran out of bullets yeah they. had to bring in more they R yeah that. this car pulls up and you're like a car. a police car has just rushed into the. scene and it's like from a movie the. trunk pops and it's just full of bullets. y just for because they ran out of. bullets yeah so they kept shooting at. this house and here's the thing like.

bear in mind they're shooting 10,000. rounds of ammunition at a house occupied. by three 13 people seven of which are. children everyone knows oh yeah everyone. knows that there were seven children in. that house yeah it's not like the cops. were unaware no uh that everyone knew. that there were children in this house. yeah it was part of it it was part of. the concern of the neighbors that there. were children being raised in this house. and the cops acted on the information.

from confidential informants who fully. informed them that there were children. in this house so that's step one they. fired 10,000 rounds at a house where. they knew that there were seven children. all right so nothing is changing though. they're still not bringing people out of. this house I'll bet they were like I. can't believe this and that structure. was still intact on top I'm surprised. they didn't think they were dead yeah I. would have thought at some point they. would have been like well I'm sure we. probably killed everyone yeah let's just. go in there uh yeah I wonder yeah I. wonder because if they were all crowd.

crowded down in the basement garage they. couldn't have been firing back after a. certain point in time yeah I'm not sure. I mean they said part of the problem was. uh the tear gas so they couldn't send. cops in there cuz it was flooded with. tear gas and then I think they said the. the um well no this this this comes. later the steam right so put a pin in. the steam okay so at some point someone. on the bomb squad apparently says to the. police chief or it gets to the police. chief uh hey he was really you know the.

chief was really worried about that. bunker and that tactical Advantage so. someone from the bomb squad said why. don't we drop a bomb on the roof and get. rid of that bunker yeah an officer named. William Klein suggested and they said. okay let's do that good idea Klein what. do we need a helicopter and a bomb yeah. they're like well we've got both so even. as late as the inquiry that they held. they they characterized it as a toex. bomb and tox is a water-based gelatinous.

explosive um that that is used I think. in mining and Demolition and stuff like. that but it can be purchased yes yeah it. later came out that in addition to the. tox the the bomb disposal guy made a. bomb with C4 plastique explosives which. is not commercially available which. means that we'll see later the. Philadelphia Police Department should. not have had this stuff yeah we should. just go ahead and say how they got it.

why not well I was trying to save it for. with a little flare for the dramatic but. you go ahead well uh the FBI gave it to. him secretly yeah the FBI had been. giving um little bits of C4 here and. there to police departments apparently. like to blow doors off of stuff to train. bomb sniffing dogs yeah teach them how. to use it but then the FBI used that. excuse for a little while then later. came out and said no we actually like. brought them a bunch of C4 like 30. blocks of C4 in January a few months.

before this this raid this Siege but. still during the time when um the the. like move people were being negotiated. with to leave on their own yeah because. that was happening this whole time they. would have Community leaders on the. bullhorn trying to talk them into coming. out uh they did not have a professional. negotiator on the scene no which that's. a huge red flag yeah that they never. meant for anyone to come out. yeah but uh at any rate they drop a bomb.

a I think it was a they said a 4pb bomb. uh from a satchel with a 45C fuse this. is all on camera like you literally in. this documentary see the helicopter fly. over drop the Satchel out of it and go. yeah fly I love that you did a running. motion you know when helicopters run. sure and they flew out of there and uh. Kaboom in West Philadelphia a a bomb. explodes on top of a building and a.

smallish fire starts this is at what. time there was it like five that they. dropped the bomb 510 I think all right. and the the the smish fire took a couple. minutes for it to to become apparent. that it had caught fire but supposedly. there was gasoline in the um what are we. calling that thing the bunker the bunker. yeah there's supposedly gasoline in the. bunker but I I really. like they the police Dropped a Bomb on a.

building that they knew that people were. in seven of which were children okay and. supposedly the reason that they did this. was to to get rid of that bunker like. that bunker the police chief did not. like that bunker standing still and. wanted to get rid of it the bomb didn't. do anything to the bunker that was a. strong bunker it was um the timeline is. important so at 5:27 is when they dro. the bomb at. 5:45. uh the someone asked the the fire.

department if they should turn on the. you know they've been diling this thing. with water right all day long until. there's a fire and then they turn it off. right which was you know it's not ironic. because it was very purposeful but um it. definitely stings more yeah so they said. uh not to turn them on um by 6 o' so. this is 33 minutes later um mayor good. is watching this on TV in his office he. found owns it in and says you know let's.

let's put this fire out now he ordered. the fire to be put out yeah 33 minutes. later Y and this is where it gets a. little hanky because uh this was given. to police chief Sor. and under testimony Sor says that he. relayed that to the fire chief he said. he said that the fire chief was there he. did not say he related to the fire chief. yeah I mean he got very dodgy with how. he worded it very but the fire chief um. basically on testimony said that's what.

he said and he's like I categorically. deny that I ever got an order to start. those water cannons or that he was even. aware that good made that call that. phone call or called the order so. basically the fire chief said the buck. stopped with Sambor and Sambor the. police chief decided to let that fire. burn that's right cuz he thought not. defending him but he thought the fire. would then take down the bunker and. remove that Advantage other people can. contend and they ask him in the.

deposition or in the in the hearing no. you kind of really wanted to use the. fire as a weapon um he got real salty. about that he did he said a fire can't. be a weapon basically and no one said. what about flamethrowers he goes I. hadn't thought about flamethrowers but. still all right so this is 6:30 Flames. are uh it it is clearly out of hand they. waited way too long that was the thing. that got me was. was it was obvious from what Sambor was.

saying if the documentary is accurate M. from what Sambor was saying that when he. was saying no we need to let the bunker. burn still MH by this time the entire. top floor was a configration yeah I mean. it's on the news so so that whole thing. doesn't hold water at all and it would. lend support to the idea that he was. using it as a weapon to burn the people. out I'm sure he was I'm sure he thought. tear gas didn't work maybe this will. work okay and drive these people out of.

there okay all right should we take a. break or should we wait no let's take a. break okay we'll take a break and we'll. tell you what happens. [Music]. next.

[Music]. okay Chuck so the the for for a little. bit the fire department um sprays some. of the houses next to the move house but. doesn't put the fire out or spray the. fire on the Move house mhm so in the. abandoned. houses they're spraying down to try to. contain the fire and the house the one.

house in this whole Square block area. where they know people are including. seven children they didn't spray later. on they will defend this by saying well. in that 1978 Siege move um fired on the. firefighters and apparently shot and. injured several firefighters right so. the we were worried for the firefighters. to be picked off fighting this fire in. this Siege as well right Ramona Africa. who would be the one adult from move to. survive this Siege uh would say well.

like you said earlier they had these. they weren't scared to to hit us with. these water cannons the whole time there. wasn't a fire right but then there is a. fire and now they're scared we're going. to pick them off that doesn't make any. sense that's just BS yeah and also I'm. glad you brought that up because it said. to put a pen in the steam this is when. the steam happened uh because they're. blowing water on this fire now and it's. creating all the steam that they said. didn't allow anyone to move in as well. okay cuz they couldn't see anything. there was no visibility okay so despite.

spraying down the houses around this. fire yeah it got out of hand really fast. and it spread very fast and it moved. very quickly not just from the move. house um but onto the neighboring houses. and then beyond and even these are. fairly narrow streets that this. neighborhood was built on and it jumped. the street fairly quickly yeah it wasn't. contained or deemed under control until. 11:41 p.m. so it's like more than 6. hours after it started yeah that this. whole city block is just burning to the.

ground it ended up being like a six. alarm fire which depending on the city. is 100 120 firefighters Chiefs ladder. trucks it's a big old fire yeah so uh. you mentioned the 1978 Siege where um. the officer was shot and killed and. where the beating of uh Delbert Africa. went down yeah uh important to remember. that because two of the officers that. were involved in the Beatdown of Delbert. Africa were also on the scene today and.

they make a big point in this commission. like did you think about sending these. guys in there might not be a good idea. and they may have revenge on their minds. right uh and I can't remember what the. answer was he's kind of like he said no. I I didn't think of that yeah or yes I. did whatever it was he was not like yeah. that was not a good idea right he stood. by whatever it was right so this kind of. sets up um another story in tandem. that's going on right now which is at a.

certain point during this massive fire. about seven yeah they try to get out. from the basement the move people tried. to get out they tried to escape that's. right they tried to get out the back. door there's this um at this Point's the. cops had moved into the alleyway there. was no camera access so you couldn't see. what happened but from the testimony. that can't even hardly get through the. testimony of that kid yeah you know they. deposed him he wasn't in front of the. commission Birdie Africa yeah but Birdie. Africa was like what he looked like 10.

or 11 years old when they deposed him. yeah but he was actually like 13 was he. mhm um but this kid is retelling the. story uh seems incredibly credible and. believable to me right like I fully. believe that he was telling the truth. over the two cops who are supposed who. may or may not who may have actually. fired on the people trying to escape the. house right of the two it's way easier. to believe that kid's testimony than. these guys who were the ones who beat. Delbert Africa in. 1978 yeah so that's what happened they.

tried to leave there was a kid named uh. rad Africa that was I think like 13 or. 14 and he was carrying out a baby MH and. he was one of the first ones out and he. goes back into the house and there's. that part of the documentary where the. the priest is talking to the officers. and he's like cuz officers are saying. all we were saying was come out with. your hands up right we didn't fire on. anybody we didn't fire we said come out. with your hands up and this priest is. like I'm trying to think of what would.

make a kid holding a baby go back into a. building engulfed in flames right and. the cops are like no no no yeah you. can't really put yourself in a move. person's feet right you can't really. identify with them and that that. minister or whatever said actually I was. friends with a lot of these people I. knew them on a human level right um the. other thing that really kind of dams the. two cops who beat Delbert Africa's. testimony um is that. there there was uh reports from a lot of.

witnesses including like fire department. people from of um gunfire in this alley. around this time so the whole thing kind. of adds up if you take those test the. the the reports of witnesses that there. was gunfire in the back alley yeah with. Birdie Africa and Ramona Africa's. testimony that around that same time. people had tried to escape yeah and then. the the testimony of the cops themselves. that the people had back in the house. right it it sounds a lot.

like a reasonable person would conclude. that the cops who had beaten Delbert. Africa in 1978 shot at the people from. move in 1985 who tried to escape the. fire and force them back into the. burning house. right 100% that's certainly what it. sounds like uh they the cop said that. the kid had or he said he was a man he. was a kid had a rifle that he pointed at. them yeah and like I know what a rifle. looks like because the the the kid who.

survived um birdie said he had a monkey. wrench in his hand that he used to get. the window open and he came out with. that monkey wrench and that baby and the. cop was like I can tell the difference. between a rifle and a monkey wrench yeah. and if you're sitting here like hey lay. off the cops just watch this documentary. and then listen to this part over again. because it's really it's a really great. documentary it does a really good job of. like laying everything out but part of. the part of the the. um I guess the goodness of this.

documentary is that it's all archival. and it lets the people speak for. themselves oh yeah it's just you. basically kind of watch what happened. and listen to what people said about it. right you know including the people I. mean in charge and it's obviously I mean. it's edited it's not just like here's. this this inquiry here's my documentary. but I mean that that it lets it pay out. enough that you get a really good clear. picture of of what happened in the. testimony that. followed so I mean that's kind of the. end of that story um as it happened that.

you know these Ramona and birdie were. the only two to make it out of that. house alive and the hero I mentioned. earlier a cop man I wish I could. remember his name I got his name he um. he he could not stop himself from. running to birdie to help him yeah James. Officer James bergy so birgire um ran to. them despite his some of his colleagues. saying don't I think it's a trap you're. going to get killed he said I I I can't.

I can't like I see this kid right there. and I'm going to go rescue him he. thought of his kids he said he did and. he was they even say like in the inquiry. like if there's if there's any like. silver silver lining or Shining Moment. to this whole horrible thing it's what. you did um and he got kind of rusted out. of the the police department within a. year or two oh yeah his his own uh. police Brethren turned on him they um. wrote racial epithets on his locker.

because he saved this kid MH uh was. diagnosed with PTSD and left the forest. 2 years later uh and there's a great. article I found that I read the first. third of right before we had to record. that uh of him an interview with him I. guess like five or six years ago yeah. that I can't wait to go read and finish. up so let's finish up okay so so the uh. so birdie and Ramona were the only two. move members who survived the other 11. died in including six children yeah in. this house that was set on fire that and.

the fire was set off by a bomb that the. Philadelphia police department dropped. on the house so obviously Philadelphia. is going to cough up some money for. this uh yeah there was um there were. settlements um the parents of the dead. children um settled for $25 million. total um Michael Ward a young birdie he. became Michael ward he changed his name. he got $1.7 million. Ramona Africa got half a million dollars.

and the families of John Africa and his. nephew uh they couldn't reach a. settlement so they were awarded 1. million by a jury and then here's the. kicker uh police chief Sor and fire. chief Richmond were forced to pay a. dollar a week for 11 years to Ramona. Africa to to keep it in mind yeah. $572 which is a but it's a civil I mean. that's a civil punishment basically. saying we think you're like you might. not be criminally responsible but in the. civil suit we are saying it's basically.

like how um symbolic payment or whatever. yeah it's like how the uh the court the. Civil Court ruled against OJ even though. he had been found not um guilty of. murder in the criminal the the Civil. Court still said no you're you're. responsible we believe so we're going to. get you in this way they did the same. thing and this was despite the fact that. Ramona Africa did seven years like they. didn't say hey we're really sorry we. burned this house she to here's some. money they said hey um you're under.

arrest for um inciting Riot and um. conspiracy of something or other and she. did seven years she didn't get out uh. early because the parole board said you. have to denounce move um and she refused. to denounce move and she did her full. seven years although now she is not. affiliated with move any longer as far. as I know yeah um as far as the original. move nine who are the ones imprisoned. for the killing of the police officer uh. two of them died in prison I think two.

are still in prison the rest uh. including just in. February uh February 12th Eddie Africa. was paroled yeah um Delbert and Chuck. Africa are still behind bars I think are. the only two still behind bars uh and as. far as Michael Ward AKA young Birdie. Africa he very sadly died uh in. 2013 in a a hot tub cruise ship drowning.

due to uh intoxication yeah the the the. bravard County Florida medical examiner. ruled at an accidental death from. drowning in the hot tub from just being. drunk I guess what a weird way to go. after all that what a weird life yeah he. um it's weird because during the. deposition he was there with his father. and I'm like where was his dad his dad. was looking for him well his dad was uh. out of the country in the military while. he was living in Philadelphia right but. he had moved to um Suburban Philadelphia.

his dad did and had been looking for. Michael and had no idea he was you know. 30 minutes away in Philly yeah so he. lived uh the rest of his life with his. dad and that's who he referenced earlier. when he was like you know the stuff that. went on there I'll only tell my father. right uh super super tragic and it's one. of these things I think like we should. do a a little triumphant of this and. Ruby Ridge and Waco Maybe agreed like. three times where there was a.

potentially problematic organization and. the United States government just. decided to firebomb it yeah these are so. sticky because you want to be like oh. these people are the victims and the you. know the government really was a villain. in this one but you're like it's never. that complex and these stories really. teach you that that things are much more. textured than than than that they're. much more nuanced than that black and. white um but even still you still don't. drop a bom you don't drop a bomb and. burn 11 people to death yeah uh the city.

as far as that block went um they paid. $1 million which is was by all accounts. a very inside deal with some developer. who uh put up a bunch of houses that. were um condemned in 2000 due to shoddy. construction yeah so somebody got rich. again trying to build these things did a. terrible job um 24 families stayed they. offered repairs and buyouts uh and. apparently most people took the buyouts.

right and if you do like the little. Google Earth the 6221 oage it's uh still. row houses and uh on either side of that. it looks like people might be living. there right but that building has like. you know plywood up in the windows oh. really cuz I I heard like starting in. about 2015 they they brought in a good. developer and started to redevelop it. and it's starting to come back well it's. interesting that one address though is. uh is boarded up so I don't know if like.

no one wants to live there or it could. be an older Google image yeah those are. usually newer right I wonder well I mean. it could be older than. 2015 although I looked at my house the. other day and it was it was the old. house the old house yeah and I was kind. of like oh that's cute it looked creder. than I thought no you got a good house I. got to see your new version yeah you. should fancy version I'm just waiting. for an invite come on over oh thanks um. I can't. uh uh if you want to know more about the.

move bombing please please we both Bes. you go watch Let the Fire Burn on Amazon. Prime on the internet wherever you can. see it just see it it's really really. good yeah and and we should point out. too that no one involved on the on the. cops and the political side suffered any. uh like punishments no there was that. inquiry and no one was found guilty of. any wrongdoing. except although this is this will put a. really good button on this multi-racial.

panel inquiry panel that held these. hearings to a person with one denter. said that we conclude had this not been. a black workingclass neighborhood but. instead a white workingclass. neighborhood the police never would have. dropped that bomb of course they. wouldn't have yeah okay uh it's time for. listener. mail who is the lone denter I didn't see. oh it's got to be the guy with the.

glasses it's always that guy uh what am. I going to call this perfect pitch. followup oh uh Hey guys back in 2009 my. band was recording an album and there. was one song that ends with this all. singing and holding on a single note the. next song starts with us singing that. same note oh that's cool see what they. did uh adding drums then the songs are. edited together to have them flow into. each other uh with no Gap Josh T is very. interested cuz he's a musician Jerry. just be like what I'm eating me so what'.

you guys say we had finished recording. that first one and I can tell by the. look on Josh's face he's like no that. old trick uh packed our instruments away. then we're about to start the next one. we realized we needed to hear the first. note so we could sing in the right pitch. instead of loading up the previous song. our pianist said I have perfect pitch. and belted out the note which we all who. don't have perfect pitch trusted him to. Be Right and started recording from. there uh little did we know he doesn't. have perfect pitch. but it's close uh when we edited the. songs together and played them through.

the notes were supposed to match were. off by about a half step now it sounds. like a Jerry edit very dissonant totally. wrong um oh I just realized Jerry's. going to hear this when she edits this. episode that's right just put a willhelm. scream in there Jerry I'll be all right. uh we were already out of the studio at. that point so we ended up just releasing. it and claiming the dissonance was. intentional uh but we never let them off. the hook and with the old oh yeah you. got Perfect Pitch do you uh thanks so. much for all the hard work hard work. guys I've learned so much been endlessly.

entertained for years signed spanked and. sent that is from Kenny uh thank you. Kenny we appreciate that that was a. pretty great email May me literally LOL. I can only assume it's Kenny Rogers I. also want to say this we give Jerry a. hard time around here at stuff you. should know oh only she's not here. imagine right actually that's not true. we do it while she's sitting right there. too I can't imagine stuff you should. know without her we love our Jerry and. she is perfect exactly the way she is we. call that a nice save all right uh well.

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