Selects: MC Escher and His Trippy Art | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everybody. Uh Chuck here on a. Saturday. I'm just sitting here drawing. cubes and things with my uh poor. artwork. But you know who is really good. at this? MC Cher and this episode from. December 2019 gets all into the life of. the great artist and uh the title is MC. Cher and his trippy art. I hope you. enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

>> [music]. >> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and there's Jerry over there and. this is Stuff You Should Know the Arts. Sea Edition. >> It's Jerry Room Tone Roland. [music]. >> Yeah, I think that's make believe stuff. >> Room tone. >> Yeah, she might as well be like, "Let me. capture a few fairies in this mason jar. first." [laughter]. I think it's the same thing. >> We may need those in the final edit. >> Uhhuh. [laughter]. Parries. >> I don't know what it is about to explain.

to everyone. Room tone is uh you did. this on film sets and in studios where. you just make everyone sit completely. silently. >> while you capture the sound of the room. >> Mhm. >> So I guess you can What do you do with. that, Jerry? Do you layer it in in case. you need it or something? >> Did you hear that everyone? >> She said she cleans up the background to. every to everybody listening. It sounded. like [laughter]. >> There's something about it though. It's. like being in church and getting the. giggles. Like it's really hard, especially on a film set when there's. like 50 people standing around.

>> being completely silent, no one farting. >> I suspect it's strictly a power trip. >> by the person calling for room tone. That's what I think. >> I'm going to start doing that my house. when things get out of hand. Room tone. >> Exactly. >> See if that works. >> Don't make me bust out the room tone on. you. >> Well, since we're talking to this No. No. I was going to say since we're. talking about room tone, obviously the. topic today is MC Cher. >> who was well known for going berserk. anytime someone asked him to be quiet. for room tone. You would trash chairs.

>> Mhm. >> Grab reptiles straight out of the two. dimensions and throw them into the third. dimension. Just do all sorts of weird. stuff. That's funny. >> Did you think so? >> That was a joke just for you. >> Yeah. So he uh everyone knows Mcsher. If. you've ever been to college or taken. drugs. >> or sold drugs to somebody in college, >> then you probably seen hands drawing. hands or. >> uh I mean that's not what the name of. that one was, but. >> it's called drawing hands. >> Oh, is it? or uh the some of his more.

famous ones are the these impossible. rooms like. >> stairs that. >> lead to sideways stairs but you got to. wrap your head around it in a certain. way to even make sense of it all. >> Right. Or stairs that lead into other. stairs that lead back into the other. stairs. It's just constant. >> Or I'm a big fan of that uh one. self-portrait he did in the. >> with the sphere. >> Yeah. >> The the mirror sphere. >> Mirror sphere. Yeah. >> It's cool. >> It is very cool. Um, I'm not crazy about. the face, even though I'm sure he did it. exactly precise,

>> but the hand, if you look at the hand, it's really realistic. It's very pretty. >> Yeah. I mean, I like this stuff. This is. not my style as in anything I would put. on my walls these days. >> But I still think he's one of the like. coolest, more innovative artist out. there. >> Yeah. >> And there's a great factoid that I hope. we'll hold till the end. Well, not the. end, but kind of where it falls in our. >> So, what does non outline? >> What does factoid mean again? Does that. mean you've killed 10% of all the facts?

>> That's right. >> And this is just one of the [laughter]. 10% remaining. >> That's right. >> Okay. Gotcha. >> So, um, one of the things, Chuck, about. Mcsher that I found was that if you are. impressed by his work, prepare to get. exponentially more impressed as we talk. about how he made those works, too. >> That's the fact of the show to for me. >> Oh, okay. That's the factoid you're. >> saying. Yeah. You got to hold on to. that. >> Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. >> Okay. I was just teasing it [laughter] a. little bit. I didn't know that's what. you were talking about, although I. should have guessed. >> Yeah. >> So, uh, this is us talking about an.

artist, which means that we should. probably talk about the artist being. born. >> Um, and in the case of MC Cher, whose. name, by the way, was uh, Moritz, uh, Cornelius. I want to say Cornelius, but there's no U in there. >> I think Cornelius. >> Sure. Esher. I nailed the last name. the. last name. But I I misspoke on name. >> Oh, you said [laughter]. >> nerm. So I nailed the last nerm. >> This is the point where the people say.

get to the point already. >> Well, we are at that point. That's MC. and then Cher born June 17th. >> Uh 1898, not 1989. [laughter]. >> as as the grabster put it. Yeah. >> I was like, man, >> he's like here's some numbers. [laughter]. He was born in Leu Warden, Netherlands. Uh, grew up in uh, Arnham, which is. about 60 miles southeast of Amsterdam. >> Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I mapped all this stuff out. Nice. >> It's all in kind of that general area.

>> You went on a little Google tour. >> Sure. Uh, and he signed even from early. on uh, as MCE, he signed his paintings, although people called him Mock M- A. Friends and Family, >> right? Which didn't mean anything. Ed. points out, but it's just like, you. know, an affectionate term for Moritz. >> Yeah. >> Is it Moritz? >> Probably Moritz. Moritz Cornellis Cher, >> but it could also go the way of Morris. So, is it Morates or Moritz?

>> I don't know. >> I wish I wish I knew. >> Well, what we do know is that uh and. this we should put a pin in because it. sort of plays a big part in how he. pursued his art, but uh his dad had some. money. >> He was a rich kid. >> Yeah, >> for sure. which really helps as we'll. see as he's drapesing around Europe on. Dad's dime. >> Slowly getting better at art slowly. >> Yeah, that's a good point because he uh. was not great in school. He did love.

drawing class, but apparently wasn't, you know, he didn't have his second. grade teachers falling over themselves. about what a talented artist he was. >> No. And apparently he also didn't. consider himself much of an artist, although he engaged in art. like he he. did produce art. >> from a very young age. He was terrible. in school except at math and at drawing. Apparently when he was in grade school, primary school, he failed his finals. All of them except for math. And I read. that his father noted in his journal.

with some affection that his son. consoled himself by producing a linype. of a sunflower. That's how he made. himself feel better after after failing. out of school. Well, and he he was. somewhat adept at math early on, but um. it's interesting his his work is highly. mathematical as far as art goes, but. later on in life when he was confronted. with real mathematicians, >> he would sort of be like, "No, not me, man. Like, I'm an artist.

>> I'm not that kind of mathematician.". >> So, yes, but he was most of his friends. were mathematicians. Yeah. >> For most of his career, he was mostly. appreciated by mathematicians and. scientists. Those are the people who. really vibed on his work. >> and drugs. >> That came later. >> Okay, >> that came later when he got real. popular. Um, but I saw that somebody. made a a movie called Journey into. Infinity. It's a documentary, a. full-length documentary. I believe the. whole thing's on YouTube. Um, and it.

starts out or the trailer starts out. with Graham Nash saying, "Hey, I I. called up MC Cher one day just to say, "Mr. Cher, I think you're a really great. artist. That's all I wanted you to say. And he said, "I don't consider myself an. artist. I consider myself a. mathematician.". >> Oh, really? >> Yes. So, I'm going with Graham Nash's. interpretation. >> Counter to this. >> Spoke to him directly. Yeah. [gasps]. >> Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. He uh I mean, not to spoil anything, but he died. >> uh in 1972 at just 73. So,

>> you know, if he would have lived to his. like mid80s, which is somewhat. reasonable, >> um [clears throat] he he would have been. like alive in the 80s, which just seems. so weird. >> It does seem kind of weird, you know. >> Yeah, cuz he was he seems. countercultural for sure, even though. his him his personality was not very. counterultural. No. >> Um and he didn't really have much love. for hippies. In fact, he later said that. the hippies in San Francisco are. illegally making copies of my work. Right. um he he didn't exactly.

follow, you know, the the normal usual. beat throughout his lifetime. And he was. he was he was a mathematician. He was a. bit of a square, but he was also a very. imaginative square. >> That's right. >> I was trying to make a square joke, but. it's not coming to me. >> Remember that show square peg square peg. square? Yeah. Square pegs. >> Sarah Jessica Parker. >> Was she in that? >> She was also in Girls Just Want to Have. Fun. That's right.

>> I'm Yeah. >> And I'm going to see her on Broadway. next spring. >> Really? >> Yeah. She and her husband are. co-starring in uh Plaza Suite. Neil. Simon's Plaza Suite. >> Very nice. >> Very excited about that. >> Oh, bet. >> Uh I'm trying to align it with the. Bonnie Prince Billy show, but they're. like a week apart. >> and I'm like I can't just stay in New. York. >> Time to kill, especially when there's. hourly flights between Atlanta and New. York. >> I know. I may just go see Bonnie Prince. Billy and come home because he didn't. play much. But that's a story for. another day.

Uh, all right. So, he goes to school at. Technical College of Delft. Um, not for. very long. And then he went to the. Harlem with two A's, School of. Architecture and Decorative Arts, which. is west of Amsterdam. >> Uh, not Harlem, New York. >> Well, I think that's what the Harlem New. York is named after, right? >> Yeah. >> That's where Bonnie Prince is playing. >> He's at Town Hall, actually. >> Oh, is that right? Yeah, we played. there. >> That's right. We got our stank on that. joint. Mhm. >> So, uh, his dad said, you know, because,

you know, his dad had a lot of money and. made money. And even though you want to. support your kids, you want the you want. to try and edge them into something. Sure. >> If you're that kind of dude that that. might be lucrative. >> So, he said, "Hey, you like to draw. shapes. Why don't you go study. architecture?". >> And he did that for a little while, even. though he wasn't super into it. But. while at school there he had a very. fortunate meeting uh by being mentored. by one Samuel Jurin. >> Deiskita. who would be his mentor who noticed some.

of his early art. I'm not sure how he. saw it but he took one look at Cher's. art and said you don't need to go into. architecture. Come study under me and. learn graphic design. >> And so Cher did he became a graphic. designer which he whether he knew it or. not he had been his whole life up to. that point. All of his work is very. graphic in nature. >> and designy. >> Yeah, it really really is. >> But I'm sure his dad in the early, you. know, 1920s was probably like, "Is that.

even a thing?". >> Right. That sounds made up. >> Yeah. >> But well, his dad also, I don't know if. you said or not, was a civil engineer. So, of course, he would be like, "You. draw, just go do architecture.". >> Right. >> That's what I know. Civil engineering. and there's architects in the world. Just go do the other thing that I I. don't do. And he probably thought. graphic design just meant like you got. to make signs, >> right? Or postage stamps or Christmas. paper, which he did later on. >> That's right. Until he made a little bit. of dough. >> So, uh, in the early 1920s, he started. on his, uh, sort of, uh, rich kid.

journey, traveling around Europe uh, on. his dad's dime. >> on a gap year that was really, really. long. >> Very long. But on one of these trips, he. went to a couple of places that would. end up having a big influence on him. >> Yeah. >> Uh one in Spain at the Alhhamra. >> Uh and then just traveling through. southern Italy, through the countryside. >> Yeah. He just fell in love with Italy. >> Yeah. But in Spain, this is this is one. that didn't bear fruit right away, but. he was really fascinated by these.

mosaics and uh tessillations. >> which are described as. >> okay. They are repeating designs that. interlock with one another, leave no. space between one another, and that when. you fit them together, they fully cover. a plane, >> which is harder. >> to do than you would think. >> Yeah. Like if you've ever seen the. escher uh fish. >> um sort of tessillation, >> the white fish and the black fish kind. of working in one another. >> Yeah, that's a perfect example. And and.

he would do this a lot later on if. you've ever played Cubert. >> Yeah, >> that's those cubes are tessellations. >> Sure. >> A certain kind. >> Y. >> but uh he got really into this even. though it wasn't like right away that he. started doing these things. That sort of. came a little bit later. But what he did. do was started drawing the Italian. countryside because he loved it. >> Loved it. I mean like he he went to to. Italy and was like this is my home. Yeah. >> And he he was quoted at one point in. time as saying like he never wanted to.

become an Italian among Italians. Yeah. He liked being a stranger. Um but he. loved Italy. >> Yeah. Which is an interesting thing to. say. I'm not exactly sure what it means. >> I think what he was saying was he's he. >> he he likes being a visitor to Italy. Yeah. rather than. there's a certain amount of. responsibility that comes with being one. of us. You know what I mean? Sure. >> Whereas if you can be like that guy over. there who we'll accept him. We're not. going to throw rocks at him every time. we see him or anything like that and. we'll take his money and, you know, maybe even say hi to him or whatever,

but we'll leave him alone. We won't. include him in our expectations of what. it means to be a local. >> Gotcha. >> That's what I think he was after. Clearly, I can identify with that. Uh. [laughter] well that kind of came. through in his work too because if. you'll notice uh even in these um before. he started doing the like trippy uh. three-dimensional hands drawing hands. and stuff when he was doing country. sides. >> he didn't do a lot of people didn't do a. lot of faces people were very much in. the background and nondescript.

>> uh but even when you look at these when. you say Italian still lives of. countryidesh. >> what came to mind for me were these. beautiful lush colorful recreations of a. countryside. side. >> Nope. >> Nope. When you look at these, they still. look very much like in the Mcsher style. that we all know. >> Yeah. Like very clearly a lot of. >> I love them, too. They're cool. >> Yeah. They're beautiful. They're black. and white and then shades of gray, which. is all just shading, right? Yeah. >> Um but they are beautiful in their way. Lovely. Even. >> I like this stuff more than the trippy. stuff.

>> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, this is something I would. put on my wall. >> You're an art snob. You're like, "Oh, I. only like early Italian landscapes.". [laughter]. Oh man, >> you take that save that trippy stuff for. Graham Nash. >> I'm so ashamed. >> No, I think it's great. Chuck, you you. have cult yourself. [laughter]. >> Uh but they they are gorgeous. Um and. then in 1923 he met his wife uh whose. name was Jedha. >> Jedha Umaker. >> That's right. Very nice. >> Thank you. >> Uh she was Swiss. >> I learned from the best. [laughter].

>> They met her in Italy, but she was. Swiss. And uh she went home and they. sent a bunch of love letters. It's a. very sweet story. I'm sure an MC Cher. movie would be pretty cool. >> I Somebody wrote a script or they wrote. a dissertation about the process of. writing a script about MC Cher. It's. from University of Texas. They wrote it. in 2017. I can't remember the name of. it, but. >> just look up Oh, just some random stuff. comes up. If you look up. >> mosquito bootprint, which will come up.

later, right? >> But if you search that on Google, it. brings up Have you ever done that? Have. you ever been like, "I'm bored. I want. to see what weird stuff I can unlock. from Google." No. >> And it takes a certain amount of skill. >> because Google wants to give you exactly. what you're looking for. It doesn't want. to give you just randomness. >> Sure. >> So, you have to trick it. >> So, maybe you'll you'll type in a weird. word or the first three letters of a. word or something like that and weird. stuff will start to come. Well, if you. type in mosquito bootprint, probably.

only like the first three of them. pertain to McSher and the rest are just. a random assortment of of links. >> I remember early in the days of Google, uh we had a mutual friend who they did. this what I thought was a very dumb game. where they would try and find two words. together that they would try and produce. the fewest amount of Google results. Yeah. >> And whoever could put two words together. that found the fewest one. >> Yeah. And I don't know if you remember. them doing that, but. >> I don't know. I don't remember who you.

talking about. >> Colossal waste of time, >> but I remember that some guy did like a. TED talk about that or something. Yeah. >> Oh, well, maybe I'm the dummy. >> No, no, no. It was. >> I mean, look at me. I I like MCR's early. work. >> I think that's awesome. I mean, what. taste? >> Yeah. >> You know, >> so he meets and gets married. Uh, she. returns to Italy and they marry in 1924. >> Do you mean Jeda Umaker? >> That's right. Uh she would become Jeda. Cher. >> Jeda Cher. >> And they had a son named Giorgio. Later.

had sons Arthur and Yan. And uh they were still just sort of. traveling. And his dad was even though. he was married, his dad was still. footing the bill. >> Usher's dad. MC Cher's father. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Which I was thinking about it. I. was like, gosh, you know, how do you. wake up every day and look at yourself. in the mirror? But if you're if you're. >> in the mirror sphere, [laughter]. >> right? How do you And then how do you. draw it? >> Yeah. >> So amazingly, um the uh the the father.

Esher's father though, like what better. way to spend your money than to just be. like this is what you want to do with. your life, son. You want to pursue art. and live in beautiful Italy than like. here this is what I want for you. >> I mean that's like. >> that's how it went down. That's awesome. >> That's the pinnacle of what a parent can. do for their child in in a lot of ways. >> No, totally. I agree. It's not like, "Hey, why don't you go, you know, take. up heroin and here's a bunch of money. for you to like lay around in a bea.". >> True. I I want to know more. I'm not I.

hope I'm not coming across as cynical, but I wonder if some of this was like. he'll come around if I you know, to. architecture or whatever. >> Right. You kept waiting for the part. where his father cuts him off. >> I I was. >> His father apparently wouldn't like. that. >> All right. >> I know how you feel. I'm not trying to. talk you into my way of thinking. I'm. just saying like I had I started out. thinking the same way you did and then. something happened. I was like, "Oh, it. was actually really neat of his dad.". >> It was It all seems above board. >> Yeah. >> So, World War II has a profound effect. on Cher and his work uh in 1935. He.

learned that they were uh making his. 9-year-old son, Giorgio, >> march in fascist youth parades, >> and he said, "Pack your bags. We're. going to Switzerland.". >> That is the appropriate response to that. news. >> Yeah. We're getting out of here. Marching for Mussolini. >> Have you seen Jojo Rabbit yet? >> No. Is it good? Is it as good as it. looks? >> It's great. >> Oh, I can't wait. >> It's great. Everything about it is. great. >> See it. Do I need to see it in theater? It doesn't seem like one I have to see.

in the theater. >> No. I mean, you know, it's always fun to. laugh with a big group of people. Although, by now it's probably thinned. out. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and I was laughing a lot and people. weren't laughing. >> Oh, I like that. >> Kind of one of those deals. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's a movie about a kid having. Hitler as an imaginary friend. Don't tell me that. I didn't know that. >> No, I had no idea. >> Hitler's on the poster. >> I know, but I didn't know he was an. imaginary friend. Oh, get out of my. brain. >> Sorry. That really doesn't spoil. anything. It's like. >> Don't tell me anything. >> That's not some big reveal.

>> Um, so they go to Switzerland. I'll. apologize. >> It's all right. I'll let. >> It's really not a big deal. >> As long as it's not a big spoiler. >> No, no, no, no. Of course not. um they go to Switzerland and he even. though he did not like the mountains, he. didn't like the snow, did not like cold. weather, >> uh so they moved to Belgium after a. couple of years, >> which is just beautiful compared to. Switzerland. [laughter]. >> Belgium's nice. >> Sure. >> Uh in the 19 in May of 1940 though, the. Nazis invaded Belgium and so they moved.

to the Netherlands in 1941. >> where the Nazis already were. >> Yeah. I guess they were like can't. occupy it again. >> Well, in its home, >> right? >> Uh, and they settled in Barn, which is about 23 miles southeast of. Amsterdam. >> I don't know if that's how you're. supposed to say it. >> B A A R N. >> Right. [laughter]. I like it. >> It's probably Baron. >> Oh, yeah. I'll bet you just nailed it. >> I think so. But Dutch is very strange.

language. >> But not strange, but just for my English. dumb English ears. Supposedly, English. is the strangest of all. >> Yeah, I'm sure. >> It's just a hybrid mongrel language. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense to. anyone who's not a native speaker of it. >> You know what is an interesting language. is Welsh. >> Mhm. >> Because I'm watching The Crown and uh. when Prince Charles starts coming. around, >> Prince of Wales. >> Yeah. >> There's people speaking Welsh. And I I. was very ignorant about even knowing. that. >> what it sounds like. >> What it sounds like and that it was. still spoken and uh it was a very odd.

hybrid. It sounded like of several. different things. >> It's all old Celtic stuff. >> Yeah, it's very unusual. >> G. GIC. >> Yeah, >> I think it's GIC. That's like the. language group. One of the two. >> Yeah. >> Everything I know about Welsh I learned. from Super Furry Animals. >> Oh, yeah. >> Cuz that guy's Welsh, >> man. I saw them blow Granddaddy off the. stage one time. >> Oh, you saw him live. >> Oh, I think you told me that. >> Melted my brain. It was so good. >> I'll bet. So, they're traveling around. still, uh, even though they're settled.

in Baron. And, uh, they go back to Al. Hamra in Spain, which I don't think we. said what that is. >> No, it's a it's a 13th century Moorish. castle from when the Moors conquered. Spain. >> It's beautiful. >> It is very beautiful. And they built it. in the Moorish style and then it was. eventually like taken over by the. Christian like royalty that. >> that explored the new world and all that. stuff. Yeah. But this castle was done in. these tiles that are renowned for being.

some of the most beautiful geometric. like uh Islamic patterns you've ever. seen in your life. >> Yeah. >> And they got to Cher. He'd seen him. before, but it it was I guess he was. like, "Oh, that's kind of cool." But. >> the second trip that he went back with. after they moved to from Switzerland, I. think to Belgium or maybe to. Switzerland. Um that's when he was like, I am obsessed with these now. These. tessellations. >> Started drawing them. Jedit did too. It. says that they work together.

>> So I'm not I didn't know that she was an. artist. >> Yeah, I didn't either. >> Uh but they uh. World War II comes back around. Well, not comes back around. It never left, let's be honest. But uh Spain would. devolve into civil war and so this meant. that he was kind of stuck in uh in. outside of Amsterdam for a little while. longer. Yes. >> He wasn't doing as much traveling. >> No, he was in the Netherlands and um he. rekindled his friendship with uh.

Mosquita, his old mentor. >> uh who had stayed in Netherlands this. whole time. And Mosquita was Jewish and. he was taken away by the Nazis. eventually. He was killed at um Ashvitz. I believe with his wife. >> Terrible. >> And their son was also killed at another. concentration camp by the Nazis. And. this really got to Cher. Yeah. >> Like this is one of his dear friends and. he had um a work a sketch of mosquitoes.

when he went to his house to visit. Mosquita, he found the door was open and. they weren't there and they clearly been. taken by the Nazis. And one of the the. pieces of artwork that he gathered. together to preserve was a sketch of. mosquitoes that had a Nazi bootprint on. it. >> And that's what you were referenced. earlier with your Google search. >> Mosquito bootprint. >> Did you Was there a picture of it? >> No, I couldn't find anything aside from. the fact that it was a sketch. Not that. it was a sketch of what or anything like. that, just that there was a sketch of. mosquitoes that was that had a boot bore. a bootprint and that Echer hung on to.

this his entire life. It was very. important to him and he was not um. uh a a very flowery like um like. passionate man or anything like that. I. get the impression that he and this is. I'm talking about that he internalized a. lot of stuff and I I think that him. holding on to that piece of art was. probably. more significant than even it appears on.

the outside. >> Yeah. And uh supposedly um hid some. people from a Jewish family. >> during the Nazi occupation years and. also during those same years did not. exhibit or release any prints. >> Wait a minute. I think you just said hid. some people from a Jewish family. Or did. you say hid some members of a Jewish. family? >> Well, people members of a Jewish family, >> but you said from I think. >> Yeah. I mean like they were from a. Jewish family in. >> Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. >> He didn't hide them from the family. [laughter].

>> Right. Right. >> Don't tell a Jewish family that you're. hiding over here. >> No, that would have been weird. >> Uh so maybe we should take a break now. >> Oh, I I think it's unraveled. >> Sort through who the good guys are. Yeah. >> All right. And I give Joshua. shock. [music]. [music].

[music]. >> Okay, Chuck. So, World War II kind of. comes and goes around Cher despite his. best efforts to escape it. Mh. >> Um, and it definitely had a mark on him, but one of the other things that that. had a really big mark on him was having. to move from Italy. Like you said, like. he was married, had a family, his father. was still supporting him. And every. spring and summer, he would just tour. the Italian countryside and visit small. quaint towns, just be inspired to keep.

making these Italian landscapes. But Ed. makes a really great point here that his. Italian landscapes are very handsome. works of art. Very beautiful. technically proficient. They're Chuck's. favorite. [laughter] But you would. almost certainly have never seen them in. your entire life. >> Were it not for him? >> Because in doing so, he lost his source. of inspiration and was forced to kind of. turn inward because he hated what. Switzerland looked like. He wasn't. apparently very inspired by his home.

country of the Netherlands. Um, so he. had to kind of turn inward into his own. imagination and start coming up with new. subjects. And in doing that, the true. Eshcher was was unlocked. >> Yeah. Because early and like a lot of. artists early in their career, they they. kind of freeranged through different. styles trying to find their own personal. thing. >> He had a very uh very colorful clown. period. It's very bizarre. Doesn't fit. with the rest of it. >> Very John Wayne Gayy, >> right? [laughter].

>> But uh you can very clearly see if you. look at uh Mosquito's work, the. connection and the influence from him. Mh. >> Um although Mosquito did a lot of uh. sort of graphic portraits and things. like that whereas Esher didn't really. worry too much about humans and faces. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um they were they were just. kind of like almost afterthoughts. >> But early on he did start experimenting. with stuff that would later become sort. of his hallmark. Uh when he did do like. a a a sketch of a building, let's say,

it would be from this really like tall. odd angle looking down on it. Mhm. >> Uh very severe angles and uh like a a. horizon or trees that sort of go on into. infinity, stuff like that that would. become very much his style later on. >> And Ed very astutely points out that. there's something about his style that. >> um I don't know how dark of a person he. was emotionally, but there is something. about the severity of these angles and a.

lot of his work that was just sort of um. uneasy feeling, >> right? It it didn't look like just some. beautiful colorful Italian countryside. There was something kind of strange and. uh unusual about it. >> Something about the the contrast of. black and white definitely does it too. And he was such a master of shading that. if something was stark and black and. white, I mean, unless it was his. earliest work, it was because he wanted. it to look that way and to make it stark. and kind of unsettling like that. But.

yeah, there's like a certain amount of. dread in a lot of his stuff. >> Yeah. >> And it's not something you can easily. put your finger on, but it's definitely. there. >> Yeah. Like did you see uh the mummified. priests? >> Yeah, >> that was creepy. And then one of his. >> But isn't it more creepy to actually do. that in real life. >> to mummify pri [laughter] them up like. that in these little al coes? >> Well, yeah, absolutely. >> Sure. He was just don't kill [laughter]. the messenger. And he would have. sometimes skulls um featured in some of.

his work and stuff like that like the. one of the eye believe called eye. >> Right in the middle of the pupil is a. skull staring back. >> Yeah. >> So he had little touches like that. without going full like uh you know. Lovecraftian, >> right? Or Goya or something like that. >> I don't even Bosch. >> I don't know who that is. >> Sure you do. >> I'm just kidding. >> Okay. >> I know those people. >> Okay. So, uh, his I guess this is where. we get to the fact of the show for me.

>> Take it away, Chuck. >> Because folks, if you've ever seen an. MCER print. >> Mhm. >> and you thought, "Man, that guy could. sure draw a print.". >> Imagine cutting that out of wood. >> Yeah. In reverse. >> In reverse. >> Because that's what he did. A lot of his. stuff were wood cuts. Even harder than. that, Chuck, is the lithograph. >> Yeah. So, a woodcut. If you've ever made. a used a stamp or made a potato stamp as. a kid, >> you're basically Mcsher.

>> Well, that's what it is. He's actually. carving the stuff into wood as a. negative image because then when you run. ink over it and stamp it, you get the. positive image. >> and it's just incredible. I mean, it's. hard enough to draw and sketch this. stuff, right? >> Much less cut it out of wood, >> right? So, so just take a step back and. think about the Ashers that you've seen. before. Imagine that they have they were. originally carved out of wood. >> Yeah. >> And now imagine that to get even more. detailing because you can't adjust how. much ink a certain part of the wood.

block gets. It's all going to get an. even layer of ink. So to shade. something, you have to do. cross-hatching, lines, stippling, something like that. But to get really. detailed with shading, you need multiple. blocks of the same image in the exact. same size with different parts. accentuated so that you can layer over. You can take the same paper and layer. them on different blocks and line them. up. >> so that you have layers to this image.

That was the level of the wood cuts this. guy was doing. >> Yeah. Like that's sort of like a a. t-shirt hippie. >> Exactly. screen printing like a. fourcolor shirt, >> right? >> You got to lay you got to put it on. exactly in the in the spot that it needs. to go each time, right? >> Drag that ink across. Yeah. >> So it's not, you know, off by a. centimeter, >> right? >> Cuz it would look bad. >> So the wood cuts um especially as. earlier wood cuts, you can tell they're. wood cuts. They look like wood cuts. Yeah. >> Some of them do not. There's some of the. Italian countryside um that just are.

just Yeah. are just astounding. And when. you stop and think about the idea that. they it's not a drawing that they're. wood cuts, multiple blocked wood cuts is. is pretty astounding. But like I was. saying, to me, even even more difficult. is making the lith lithograph. >> Yeah, I I think I talked about this on. some other episode. Um I know I talked. about batiquing, but I also talked in. industrial arts. We did uh offset.

lithography. >> in that social experiment high school. you went to. [laughter]. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh we did offset. lithography which um basically I mean. that's the process today. I mean that's. how they make newspapers, posters, books, maps, kind of everything is to do. with offset lithography. >> It was inh. you remember. >> it was in the um Etch a sketch episode. >> Oh. >> that's what Ohio Art originally did was. lithography. >> Okay. Well this is a deep cut. This is. pre like today you use like aluminum or.

some other kind of metal sheet, >> right? >> And these emulsions and chemicals. Uh. back then uh it was drawn onto. limestone, a flat slab of limestone with a grease. pencil and then used a chemical. treatment uh to uh on the areas that. basically water and ink don't mix. It's. sort of all built on that principle, >> right? >> So the areas where you have written in. grease. >> uh do not hold that ink. Mhm. >> Or is it the other way around? >> No, I think they don't hold the image. >> Yeah. Again, what you're doing is.

creating a negative image just like the. woodcut essentially. >> Right. So, you've got this um attraction. and repulsion interplay between ink, water, and grease. >> Right. And when you put it all together. on limestone, it makes these extremely. subtle gradients of shading um that are. kind of like a hallmark of some of. Cher's more um well-known works like the.

hands drawing hands, right? >> Yeah. >> That was a lithograph. He made that with. limestone and grease pen and ink and um. did it in reverse too because just like. with a wood block you have to create the. negative of it. >> Yeah. >> Because the you want the positive image. on the paper. >> You have a very special brain if this is. if you can work this stuff out as an. artist. >> Yes. >> You know it's uh not saying that any. kind of artist is any better or worse or. smarter than the next.

>> But your brain just has to be wired a. little bit differently to think in. negatives like that. like a. mathematician basically. Yeah, your. brain has to be set up that way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh but lithography is. difficult, very labor intensive. >> Uh so later on he would hire a. lithographer to actually create his. prints after he's sketched and drawn. this stuff out. >> Smart move. >> And he would destroy the limestone. Well, he wouldn't destroy it. He would. scrape it clean so he could reuse it. >> Right. >> So that's the reason like if you want to. buy an original Mcsher, good luck.

>> Well, there's there's no such thing. There's original prints that he made, >> right? >> And apparently, >> but you're not going to get your hands. one of those limestones. >> No, but there are a couple of those left. over, but he said that he wanted them, I. think, cancelled is what they call it in. his will, >> right? where they intentionally damage. it so that even if you got a hold of one. of these things and you were like, I'm. going to print me a brand new Eshcher. >> Um there'd be like the like the the. negative image of Snaggle Puss like. comes through and like the the.

handdrawing hands picture. >> Uh and he did not do many original. prints from those original woodcuts and. lithographs either. I think he only did. 10 of still life with uh spherical. mirror. Mhm. >> And so anything obviously anything you. buy in a Spencer gifts is going to be a. print anyway. >> What? [laughter]. >> They told me it was an original. >> You mean bikini lady on Corvette? [laughter]. >> You could probably get the original of. that at Spencer. >> You probably could. The original. negative. Um.

>> Bikini [laughter] Lady on Corvette. >> Oh man. Remember those. >> Garfield with Lamborghini. >> The uh these lithographs. He would also. layer those just like he did with the. wood cuts, >> creating uh multiple plates to layer on. top of one another for shading and. toning and stuff like that, right? Just. amazing. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I did it to make a monkeykey's. t-shirt. >> I forgot you used to screen print, too. So did I. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, actually, the monkeykey's t-shirt. was screen printing. I think a I can't. remember what what I did for a.

lithograph. I think something to make a. notepad that said like my name and. something else. >> Oh, that's right. So, you you screen. printed in industrial arts. Yes. >> Okay. Like you were you ever employed. gainfully as a screener? >> Oh no. >> Oh no. >> Did you do that? >> Yeah. >> No. I mean I would have loved to. I. wasn't good enough. >> It's Oh, it's not hard. >> Yeah. But I mean you would draw the. stuff or you would just. >> Oh, no. No. No. No. Would [laughter]. like burn the screens and everything and. drag the ink through. No. >> You did that for for a job? >> Sure. >> Well, like high school.

>> No. This is This is college. >> What kind of dough do you make doing. that? >> Uh jack. >> Yeah. >> But it's fun. It's cool work. you know, you just listen to music, >> beer and a few bucks. >> pretty much. Hang out with some cool. dudes and, you know, that's. >> Yeah. Yeah. I got you. Say no more. >> Good early college job. You know what I. mean? >> I I think it'd be cool. And I mean, there's a a very cool t-shirt, local. t-shirt shop here that every time I go. over there, cuz that's where our friend. uh. >> the patch maker. >> uh Katie Culp works, or at least she. used to. I think she's got her own space.

now. >> Oh, cool. But she shared a space with. t-shirt dudes. >> and anytime I'm in there, it's just a. good vibe. You know what I mean? >> It really is. >> Yeah. >> There a lot worse places to spend your. time than a t-shirt shop. >> Yeah. >> So, uh Oh, another thing uh we should. point out is that he did do color. occasionally, but color was a whole. different You had to do a separate stone. for each color, right? >> So, that's why a lot of his stuff ended. up in black and white, right? >> Aside from the fact that he liked it as. well. >> Yeah. He seemed to be very pleased with. black and white in general. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm not saying he was lazy.

>> No. But let's take a step back here for. a second and examine the idea that you. thought MC Yesher was a pretty amazing. artist when you just imagined that he. was sitting in his studio drawing all. this stuff with a pencil. Yeah. >> Now, really let it sink in that he. carved these things in reverse out of. wood. >> or limestone. or limestone. >> and then use these crazy techniques to. make these extraordinarily detailed, incredibly precise and technical works.

of art. >> It's amazing. >> It really is amazing. >> Truly astounding. Uh and like you said, there are a few of those stones and wood. blocks uh that are owned by the Mcsher. Foundation. >> Snaggle puss on every single one of them. >> and apparently they will they will. display them occasionally uh along with. his works, >> right? which I imagine seeing that and. then looking at the work of art and then. going back and looking at that limestone. and then looking at the work of art, it. really kind of sinks in like, oh my. >> Yeah. I'd love to see an exhibition of.

his stuff. >> Me, too. They've picked up in recent. years, >> have they? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. It seems like he's being more. appreciated. uh as a truly great artist and less. college dorm wall material. >> Yep. In uh 2011, the record for highest. overall attendance in the world out of. all the museums in the world that year. was at the Centro Cultural Banko de. Brazil, which uh held their magical. world of Cher exhibit. >> Oh wow. >> 570,000. visitors, about 10,000 a day.

>> Holy cow. >> Yep. >> So if you think lithography and wood. cutting sounds difficult, we'll talk a. minute about mezzotent. uh that is sort of like wood cutting. except you're using a sheet of copper. >> that starts out as a rough surface. >> and then use these little tools to. smooth out things that are going to be. the image applying that ink and then. wiping it off. >> Right? So the places you smooth out are. ink the ones that are going to be white.

on the paper or blank on the paper. Right? Um it's the rough edges that hold. the ink. So you cover the whole thing. with ink, wipe it down. The smooth start. parts come clean. The rough stuff um has. the ink. And you can use this like this. is this isn't like, oh, look, I made an. X, >> right? [laughter]. >> This is like incredibly fine um. stippling is possible with these copper. plates and all this and a meot tint. And.

that eye that you were talking about, the one with the skull, if you go back. and look at that, that was a messotint. Yeah. So was dew drop. >> Yeah. >> Uh very detailed cupped leaf. >> Uh showing a single drop of dew inside. it with all kinds of cool reflections. >> Uh but Echer called this the black art. Uh he only made eight of these because. it is a real undertaking and uh I think. he is just he he did a handful of them. >> and then moved on to the far easier wood. cutting. >> Right. Right. [clears throat] He's like, "Oh, I came back, baby." [laughter].

>> All right. We'll we'll take a break and. then we'll come back and pick up uh with. his life story again which is I believe. we left off in what end of World War II. >> Sounds right. >> All right. [music]. >> [music].

>> Okay, World War II is over. Uh MC Yesher. was like a lot of people very rattled by. that experience in Europe. >> And uh at this point he still is not a. super famous artist making tons of. money. No, but he's more famous than. than this makes him out to be. Like he. he's he's got some renown in the. Netherlands or exhibits. Yeah. Um but.

he's not anywhere anywhere even. approaching how he is today or how he. has been the last few decades since. about like the late60s. >> Yeah. College dorms have not yet started. putting his stuff everywhere. >> No. But the people who who most. appreciate what he's doing are. scientists and mathematicians who are. like this is astounding. This guy is. taking what we write out as formulas and. turning them into art and making them. precise. Yeah. >> Like you could describe this work of art. as a formula. That's that is what MC.

Cher was able to do. He was able to take. math and translate it into a visual art. >> Yeah. And uh you know remember what you. said earlier. This is where we are in. his life where he is um he is not in the. Italian countryside. >> He's been ripped from its bodice. So his. muse is gone and he is now looking. inward for his inspiration in his own um. unique brain. >> He's being forced into his own bodice. face first. >> Uh this is where he starts with these. tessillations, more elaborate geometric. shapes. He's doing uh the lizards and.

the birds and the insects as. tessellations. >> Uh really really cool stuff. >> Um his brother said, "Hey dude, you know. what you should do is go talk to a. crystalallographer." He's like, "If you. want to talk detailed shapes in math.". Yeah. >> Uh and he does so and that taught him a. lot. And then he learned about the 17 uh. 17 wallpaper groups. >> Yeah. >> Which is so dense that I you know how. much do we even want to talk about it? >> Well the the we'll just sum it up. The. 17 wallpaper groups basically is a.

mathematical concept that says every. geometric pattern two dimensional. geometric pattern falls into one of 17. categories. There's only 17 and they're. called kind of half jokingly the. wallpaper groups because wallpaper has. geometric patterns on it usually, right? Um Echer couldn't understand it. mathematically. >> Yeah, it was proved out twice. independently. >> the that there are 17 wallpapers. >> Yeah, the mathematical proof. >> One of the things that's interesting, Chuck, is the Alhamra apparently is the.

only place in the world that contains. all 17 geometric wallpaper patterns. >> within its walls. Mhm. >> That's pretty cool. >> Yeah. So, of course, this would appeal. to Esher, but he didn't understand, he. couldn't sit down and explain, like we. can't what the 17 wallpaper groups are. or what they mean mathematically, but he. understood them intuitively. And as he. became friends with mathematicians, uh, you know, about midcareer, um, he was apparently kind of amused to.

find like, you know, these guys spend. all this time writing this stuff out and. these formulas, and I just know it. It. was almost like I was born knowing it. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> I mean, >> I guess he was real cocky. >> Yeah. >> He wasn't really, though. I'm just. kidding. >> And I didn't get the idea either that he. was like, "Take your math and shove it.". >> He was just a little more amused that. like you've got these mathematical. proofs and that uh like I'm drawing this. stuff for my creative brain. >> on limestone. >> Yeah. On limestone, cutting it out of.

wood. >> Uh so I think he appreciated the way. they coalesed. But uh and he was very. like you said most of his friends were. mathematicians I think later in life uh. who did he roses? >> Yeah. Roger and Lionel Pinrose which. >> I love how it's described here. Father. and son mathematician team. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> You know those. >> they wore matching dolphin shorts. >> Oh man. >> It's part of their uniform. >> I wish people still wore those. >> Yeah. >> Did you ever wear those? >> No. They were a little before my time.

Well, they were for joggers and runners. >> Yeah. 2011 and Hooter. I forgot about that. Yeah, that is what Hooters waitress. >> Orange dolphin shorts with uh bronze. panty hose. >> Yeah. And then chunky white socks. >> Yeah. And Reebok high tops. >> It was bizarre. >> It's an interesting look. >> Somebody put that together. And not a. woman. Um do you remember there was a uh. there was a Hooters airline. >> What? >> Yeah. >> Wow. That kind of rings a bell. Yeah,

>> that was very shortlived, I imagine, >> I believe. So, it was pretty shortlived. >> Interesting, >> I guess. Yeah. >> So, you would get asked like, "What kind. of drink and what style of chicken wing. do you want?". >> I bet they did serve chicken wings on. those. >> Of course. >> But can you imagine being on an airplane. and being forced to smell chicken wings. the whole time if you didn't like it? >> Uh, that's like every flight I ever. take. >> It's true. >> There's somebody with some stinky food. You know, if I sit next to somebody on. the plane and I'm going to eat, I ask. them if it's okay if I eat first.

>> Like, if you bring food on. >> Yep. >> I don't bring food on to a flight. >> Sometimes, dude, you just have to. Yeah. It's a long flight and. >> they run out of turkey wraps like in the. first half a second. >> So, you just pull out your what? >> My kungpow. >> out of your pocket. You had just in case. they're out of turkey wraps. >> Not even in a container. It's just in my. pocket. [gasps]. >> Oh, goodness. So, uh, I thought this. part was sort of amusing. Um, how. orderly he always was with his art. >> And he he tried to get into chaos a bit.

in, uh, this one work, contrast. parenthesis, order and chaos. parenthesis, >> wherein he went and, uh, dug up a bunch. of trash and said, "I will I will draw. chaos.". And it ended up being, if you go and. look at it, there's like a broken. bottle, broken eggshell, an open sardine. tin, a broken clay pipe, and some other. refues. >> drawn to like perfect or I guess wood. cutter lithograph with perfect beautiful. precision, >> right? That was chaos, his.

interpretation of it. >> He just couldn't do it. >> He was very much preoccupied with chaos. He has a very famous quote, probably his. most famous quote. Quote, "We adore. chaos because we love to produce order.". >> And he's like, by we, I mean me. Yeah, sure. >> Sounded very much like an eye statement, >> but he was he was very much into. geometry and precision and clean lines. and all that. >> Yeah. And also as his career would uh. progress this this these repeating. patterns on a finite space. Um, if.

you've seen his Circle Limit series, that's where you'll find the fish or. these demons and they start out with. like one in the center and then there's. a pattern all around and it as it gets. closer and closer to the edge, they get. smaller and smaller and smaller, >> right? >> And you can just sort of imagine that. there is no end, >> right? >> Uh, to these shapes. >> that they're just going infinitely. around the sphere. Yeah. >> Perfectly. But again, you have to stop. and remind yourself this is a. two-dimensional image I'm looking at, >> right? >> And then secondly, this is cut out of. wood.

>> [laughter]. >> But yeah, he apparently made a. three-dimensional wood carving of his. circle limit series later on in life. And I'll bet that's spectacular to see, too. >> He made a what? >> A three-dimensional wood carving of it. Basically proving that his his. two-dimensional drawing was accurate. >> Yeah, >> because he made it in the three. dimensions. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah, it's pretty. He was just showing. off toward the end there. >> Uh I like reptiles. >> Yeah, it's a good one. uh aside from his. early countryside work that is far. superior. Uh the tessillation of the.

lizards and reptiles is really neat. That's the one that has uh the lizards. being uh like crawling off of the page. as a drawn image, >> circling around, walking over some. books, and then crawling back over onto. the page as a drawn image. >> Yeah. >> Very neat. It's uh it's a lot like the. hands drawing or drawing hands one kind. of where the hands are drawing. themselves or one another, but they're. also three-dimensional, too. And that. actually kind of jives with another. quote he had um that I think really sums.

that style of art up. He said, "The flat. shape irritates me. I feel as if I were. shouting to my figures, you are too. fictitious for me. You just lie there. static and frozen together. Do. something. come out of there and show me. what you are capable of. >> And he would shout it just like that. >> And then Jedha would back out of the. room [laughter] slowly. >> Okay, dear. Use your teeth. >> Yeah. >> Uh and that sort of brings us too with. the reptiles. Uh we we need to talk a. little bit about illusion. Um because it.

started sort of early on. He was. preoccupied with illusion, whether it. was like these lizards coming off the. page, >> or uh still life in street, which is a. tabletop that blends into a street. scene. >> That's a neat one. >> Yeah, it's really cool. I like that one, too. Um or relativity, which I don't. know. I mean, is there a most famous? Maybe hands. >> It's between hands, self-portrait with. sphere, and relativity. >> Yeah, relativity is the one with the the. staircases. >> Yeah. people going up and down stairs.

that don't go anywhere, but they go. everywhere and they circle back on each. other and it's just an impossible. staircase. Actually called Penrose. stairs. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> After the famous father and son. mathematician Jean. >> And speaking of the Penroes, they um. >> Did I say math magician? I just invented. something. >> Did I? >> That's amazing. >> Completely by accident. >> Um the penroes that would be great. Math. magician. >> Yeah, I bet that's something. >> Four, right? [laughter].

But the Penroes apparently wrote they. saw some of Cher's work wrote a paper. explaining his work about impossible. things like impossible stairs which came. to be called Penrose stairs and uh Cher. was either mailed a copy of this or. somebody pointed out to him. So he. created something called House of Stairs. >> or upstairs downstairs one of the two. and um sent one of the original prints. to the pen roses. So in a way their. correspondence and inspiration for one.

another was like a set of impossible. stairs in real life. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Yeah. And [snorts] this is you know we. were talking earlier about how his works. somehow felt unsettling. >> and you know the subject matter as well. when you think about these the the. subjects walking in relativity. >> right. >> clearly never getting anywhere. walking. downstairs um sideways, all of a sudden. I'm walking back into the same staircase. I was just on. Right. >> Like you imagine if these things were to. come alive, they would be frustrated,

angry people, >> right? And as a matter of fact, one of. the um the one that you were just. talking about upstairs downstairs, they. um that was supposedly based on some a. staircase in his school. >> Oh, really? >> Which suddenly says quite a bit about. his psychology, don't you think? Well, how so? >> Uh, well, I mean, like these these. students aren't going anywhere. They're. not even human. They're centipedes with. human faces. >> Gota, >> and they're kind of trapped in this what.

you could definitely call like a um a a. a purposeless existence in this. building. >> It's kind of a dark building. >> Interesting. So, he does finally achieve. really great fame later in his life. uh like you said, he was holding. exhibitions in the Netherlands and a. little bit in Europe. Uh but he did one. in Belgium in 1950 that led to uh an. article in the studio which was a art.

magazine and that captured the attention. of a journalist who wrote about him in. Time and Life magazines which definitely. propped him up a little bit. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. >> Uh then that led to a larger exhibition. at the International Mathematical. Congress in 54. >> Mhm. Uh, flash forward to ' 66, he was. featured in um Mathematical Games column. in Scientific American by Martin. Gardner, >> math magician. >> I I guarantee you that's a thing. Um,

and that increased his and this was '. 66, so it was kind of perfect timing. with the hippies and the drugs and the. counterculture, right? And I guess uh. who was it? Graham Nash. >> Graham Nash. Mick Jagger sent him a fan. letter. Nice and made the mistake of. calling him by his first name. >> Oh, really? >> Chester did not appreciate. Um Stanley. Kubri tried to recruit him to make 2001. of Space Odyssey a fourthdimensional. film. >> Huh. >> Yeah. There's this interesting article. called The Impossible World of MC Cher. that Steven P wrote in the Guardian that.

has a lot of that stuff in it. But he. was he was kind of like, "No, I'm good. over here with my ma mathematician. friends." Well, once he was featured in. uh Scientific American, that led to the. big daddy of them all. He got featured. in Rolling Stone. And then after that, it was it was all over. He he was huge. >> Yeah. >> Dorm room. Huge. >> Uh 448 works. >> Yeah. >> Uh then this doesn't count all the. sketches and drafts. These are like the. actual final works, >> right? >> And like we said earlier, he died in.

1972 of cancer at the age of 73. And I. tried to find more about his family, but. there's not a lot out there like his. sons and whether or not his I mean I. guess his grandkids would. >> be contemporaries of ours. >> Yeah. I don't know. Like he was born in. 1899. >> Well, >> great grandkids maybe. >> Yeah. Okay. I guess if his kids were. born in the 1920s. Yeah. Contemporaries. of our parents maybe. >> Sure. The oldsters. >> Yeah. >> Boomers.

>> Hey, Boomer. Boomer. Okay. Boomer. Hey, Boomer. >> Um, >> I can't even get that right. >> In that that Journey to Infinity movie, apparently all three of his children. appear in it. >> Oh, really? >> So, if you want to know more about them, go watch that. >> I saw uh one picture of him where he. looked a lot like our old uh colleague. John Fuller when John had a beard. >> Oh, yeah. He did, didn't he? >> Looked a little bit like him. >> Yeah. Was not expecting that. >> Yep. >> So, there's Mcsher. >> That's right. >> Speaking of not expecting that, uh, Bikini Babe on.

>> Corvette. Sure. >> And Hooters's a air line made. appearances in the MCSER one. I just. want to point out. >> uh if you want to know more about any of. those things, go on to the internet and. start searching. And uh since I said. that, it's time for listener mail. >> Uh hey guys, I've been listening to your. show since 2011. I even sent you uh I've. even seen you on your first amazing show. in Chicago and had to wait a whole year. to hear that on the podcast.

>> Oh yeah. Uh, that's how it works, you. know. >> Sorry. >> It's not even guaranteed that it's going. to be the show you saw. >> Yeah. A lot of podcasts put out just. tons and tons of live shows. Uh, we. don't do that. >> No. >> Yeah. And I honestly think the live. shows are a little better in person. I. don't think they make, as a fan of other. podcasts, I don't think they make for. the best just regular content. >> I think most people think that, [music]. >> but we we just So, that's why we only. put out the one, >> right? >> Uh, so back to the letter. This show is. so great. I would even [music] save.

highinterest episodes for my son to. listen to over the years. >> Nice. >> Uh, you were one of the few people that. can keep [music] his attention. I never. thought I would write, but as a science. teacher, you said something recently. that is so true. Some of the best. science websites are children's science. websites, man. >> Or if a definition is too difficult, I. always tell people to look up a child's. definition for that word. >> Uh, really good tip, guys. Thanks for. sharing that. Thanks for all your work. And now I will have to figure out what. to do now that I am finally caught up.

Keep up the great work. And that is from. Jenny with an I. >> Thanks Jenny with an I. Hopefully you. dot the eye with the heart. Maybe with a. little [music] reflection on the side of. the heart. You remember that one? >> Two curved lines top with topped and and. uh I guess bottomed with a straight. line. >> I think I know what you're talking. about. >> Here, I'll show you. [laughter]. >> Oh boy. Since we just dis Oh. Oh, sure. >> That. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It almost looks like a a bent Roman. numeral tube.

>> inside the heart. >> That's a That's the reflection of light. That's where the light's coming from. >> It's beautiful. Thank you. >> It's a Cher reference. >> I'll treasure that. >> Uh well, you're welcome, Chuck. I wasn't. going to give it to you, but now I have. to. >> Just sign it first. >> Uh if you want to get in touch with us, you can uh go on to stuff you should. know.com and look for our social links. there. And you can also send us an email. like Jenny with [music] an I did. You. can send it to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com.

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, [music] Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.