Selects: John Lennon and the FBI | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everybody. Christmas is in the air. because it's December 3rd, 2020. [music]. And you know what's also in the air? Co. SARS. 19. Is that what it was called? I can't. even remember. I think I got that wrong. And I'm glad that I got that wrong cuz. it's not something that I care to. remember in that kind of detail. I'm. just going to call it the Cove. So, uh, we are in December with the Cove at this. point. And we did a very fun episode for. me at least cuz I'm a big Beatles fan. And I know Josh is not, but he indulges. me occasionally with episodes like this.

And this one is not just on the Beatles. Uh, in fact, it is on John Linen and the. FBI because he was under surveillance by. the FBI for a lot of reasons. And, uh, had a pretty dodgy relationship here in. the United States at times. So, check. out this episode right now. I think. you'll enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music].

>> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. Clark. There's [music] Charles W. Chuck. Bryan out there. Jerry's here. Special. guest Jerry. This is stuff you should know. The super. subversive [music] edition. >> Yeah. >> Which is I mean it's a it's subversive. but not coming from who you'd expect. In. this case, the subversive people, Chuck, are two of the crookedest, worst.

Americans to ever take a breath of life. in the United States. >> Yes. Uh Hoover and Nixon, right? >> Yes. Herbert Hoover and Charles J. Nixon. >> No. >> Oh, no. [laughter] Not those two. Was it. Jay Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon? >> Richard Milhouse, I think. >> That's right. Milhouse. That's right. So, you picked this one, right? Um. >> Yeah. >> I think we got uh help from our buddy.

Was it um Oh, it was a Grabster article, right? >> This is a Grabster. >> So, um why did you choose this one, Chuck? >> I'm just a Beatles nut. I'm reading a. massive Beatles book and just I'm always. thinking about the Beatles, so this. isn't something I knew a ton about. >> So, now I now I know more. >> What are you thinking about the Beatles? right. now. >> They could write a song. >> Like they could like they're really good.

at writing songs, you mean? >> I think so. I know you're not a Beatles. guy, but they're regarded as good. songwriters. >> Sure. I'm willing to concede that at. least. Yeah, I'm a grown person. I'm I. can concede when I'm wrong or when I've. been bested. >> I think we differ on Yokoono Ono, though, so that'll be, you know, that's. where the tables are turned. >> Okay. >> Because you like her singing, isn't that. right? I appreciate it. I don't know. Like is a. pretty strong [laughter] word, but I. definitely appreciate it. There's some. songs like, have you ever heard I Love. You Earth?

>> Uh, sure. >> That's a pretty sweet song. I I like her. singing on that, but All right. >> Have you ever heard her um her cover of. um Katy Perry's Fireworks? >> No. I bet that's something. >> I She did it at um maybe MoMA or the Met. or something like that, and she's just. standing there wailing. She's not. singing words or anything like that, just wailing. And it was her cover of of. Katy Perry's Firework. And it's it's. pretty great to see, I'm sure, if you. look it up on YouTube. But I I.

appreciate a lot of her stuff. How about. that? I appreciate her as a human and. it's always fun to look back at uh. >> at performances, live performances with. Linen when she would do a full like four. or five songs in a row in the middle of. like Madison Square Garden concert and. you could kind of see his his backing. band just kind of like, "Oh boy, I can't. believe [laughter] we're doing this. I. can't believe she's really doing this.". >> Right. Right. Um and she's actually. pretty strongly implicated in this whole.

thing. We're talking about John Lennon. um being pursued and and surveiled and. basically harassed by the FBI. um in the in 1972 actually 197172 I. believe um for a very specific reason. and it was at a time when John Lennon. and Yokoono had just gotten married. They got married like two two three. years before and um were a very famous. couple. The Grabster argues that they. may have been like the first genuine.

celebrity activist couple who actually. used their celebrity as a way to um help. help influence or help causes, that kind. of thing. Um and by the time 1971-72. rolled around, Richard Milhouse Nixon. was actually running for reelection. again. and he decided that he didn't. like people like John Lennon running. around conceivably swaying the vote. particularly among newly minted voters.

in the 18 to 21 year old block. >> Yeah. I mean he and Yoko had uh been. contributors to causes u workingclass. causes. It's sort of the notion that. Linen was always known as the. workingclass hero, but uh of all the. Beatles, he grew up more solidly middle. class than any of the rest of them. >> And not to say that that was a false. persona, but he definitely sort of um. [clears throat] sort of jumped in sort. of leaned into that as Null Brown would.

say. >> uh as far as as his persona. And I think. a lot of people that don't dig deep kind. of think that John Lennin grew up in. with a very hard scrabble life. there in. Liverpool, which is not the case. But um. as a result of that, he championed the. working man. He and Yoko contributed to. causes. >> Uh he became along with Yoko uh very. much uh pacifist activists. And if. you're a pacifist activist in the early. '7s, you're not going to be a big fan of. Richard Nixon and he's not going to be a.

big fan of you because he was uh he was. not shy about war. >> No, he really wasn't. He'd even. campaigned um I think in ' 68 on ending. the Vietnam War and then actually went. the exact opposite direction with that. Um there was a lot if you were a. pacifist there was a lot to be upset. about in the 60s and early 70s because. of Vietnam alone you know. >> Yeah for sure. Uh, one of the ways I. think that got the most press that when. people think about John and Yoko's. activism is the bedends that they had,

>> uh, that is beed-. I ns and that is, if you don't know what. those are, that's when you lay around in. bed and you invite the press to come to. your room and talk to you while you lay. around in bed [laughter] and why why. you're laying around in bed. >> And it looked kind of ridiculous to a. lot of people uh, especially people on. the right. But um John Linen's whole. kind of point and he was a very. tongue-in-cheek kind of had a great. sense of humor but. >> I think it all sort of stemmed from that. which is like hey all you got to do is.

stay in bed and not go and start wars. and this is a pretty ridiculous way to. drive that point home. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like rather than having to. like go out and oppose violence. You. could oppose violence just by laying. around in bed and doing nothing, letting. your hair grow, [laughter] I think is. what they were saying. >> Sure. >> Which is pretty awesome. And and the. thing is is it's John Lennon and you. know Yokoono and they're sitting around. in bed with the press in their hotel. room and like that in and of itself is. getting pressed and then if you say what. is all this about and you read a little.

further into the article I don't know. maybe it kind of gets you in just the. right way and all of a sudden you start. thinking that way too and to the people. who are you know running the whole. militaryindustrial complex that that I. mean that's a threat um even if it's. just a threat of of the threat of saying. like just don't you don't even have to. oppose war. Just don't do anything and. and that opposes war in and of itself. And that was like kind of the way things. were at the time. Like there was a lot. of a lot of people in power who were.

really. opposed to that kind of thinking, who. were opposed to people who were opposed. to Vietnam or war in general or violence. of any kind. Um there was a big. opposition to that and the people who. were running the show in the United. States were chief among those people. like we said Nixon as president and then. running for re-election. And then J. Edgar Hoover who was not shy at all. about doing whatever he needed to to. quiet disscent like he would generate.

dossas on elected officials uh. especially ones who were more uh liberal. to to basically keep them in line by. threatening them with blackmail or even. the threat of blackmail. You know um. there were plenty of hippies who got. their heads cracked in. There were. people who were surveiled. Um we did an. episode on the Black Panthers if you'll. remember. We talked about um. co-intelpro, the whole program to. basically undermine [snorts] and smear. the Black Panthers in the public's mind. Like the Jay Edgar Hoover was a a a.

vicious, terrible human being. Um and he. ran the FBI for decades and was still. running the FBI when they started to. target John Lennon. >> Yeah. So to set the stage here uh of. kind of how this all worked out was um. John Linen had uh he was able to enter. the whole thing kind of boils down to. whether or not he would be allowed to. live in the US or whether or not uh if. he was eventually allowed to live in the. US if they could legally deport him. So.

he was able to enter the US on a work. visa in 71. And concurrent with this uh. Yoko Ono had a custody battle going on. Uh she had a daughter from a previous. marriage in the early 70s and she wasn't. going to leave at all. Uh she was. legally there. They did try and deport. her. They didn't know that she had a. green card already, which was sort of. the first foil in this thing, >> right? >> But they um they knew that they had a. lot of leverage over Linen because if.

they deported him, he would be without. his wife who was going to stay there. So. they have this leverage. Uh Linen loved. living in New York City. that's where he. wanted to make his permanent home. >> That so much so that that was also. leverage that they had too. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so Nixon's up for. reelection in 72. Um he would go on to. win, you know, in a big big way against. McGovern, but they were, you know, they. were an or I was about to call them an. organization. They were an.

administration that was very paranoid. Um they would obviously with Watergate. they showed that they were willing to do. anything to ensure their victory. >> Uh and that included being really. worried about people like John Linen. Uh. I don't think he was at the top of their. list of things to worry about, but he. was on their list. Uh thanks to Strom. Thurman of all people. >> Yeah. So Strom Thurman, the horrible. segregationist senator um from what? South Carolina, right? Uh he he actually.

kicked this whole thing off because I. guess. he noticed that John Lennon was was you. know he was a left-leaning rockstar. activist. He's I he seems to have been. one of the first people to notice the. activism that was developing among John. Lennon and Yokoono and to perceive it as. a threat to the establishment because. all those um recently infranchised 18, 19, and 20 year old voters who hadn't.

had the right to vote until the 26th. amendment had been passed. Uh I don't. remember exactly when it was passed, but. it was between 68 and 72 because 72 is. the first election those younger kids. were going to be able to vote in. And he. apparently saw Lenon as among a group of. people who could speak to those kids and. sway them to the left and potentially. unseat Richard Nixon, which it would. turn out is just a total laugh because. Nixon beat McGovern in a landslide. But. at the time they didn't know this and. Richard Nixon wasn't going to take any.

chances. So his his the note from STM. Thurman was very wellreceived in the. Nixon administration. >> Yeah. I think uh what I want to know is. who told STM Thurman. >> That's what I want to know too. The. biggest mystery here. >> Yeah. I doubt if Strom Thurman was too. hip to any of this, but somebody. probably got in his ear and he said uh. he sent a note that specifically said. they try and get him deported as a quote. strategic counter measure, >> right? >> Uh and that's really kind of what got.

the ball rolling. Uh, we should also. mention this other guy, John. I don't. know if it's wiener or whiner in this. case. >> It's pronounced wiener slave. >> Oh, it is. [laughter]. >> No. Do you remember there was a 30 Rock. episode where there's like a HR mediator. and he's like this very soft, rosy. cheicked, very calm, mildmannered man. and um Liz Lemon says, "Well, Mr. Winer. Slav and he goes, no, it's pronounced. wiener slave.". >> I miss that show. >> It's a That was a a really good moment.

They had such uh great fun with dumb. jokes like that and Bob blah blah blah. >> Yeah. Right. No, that was Arrested. Development. >> Oh, that's right. That was Arrested. Development. They kind of had the same. DNA though. >> Yeah, for sure. >> So, Weener Slave uh [laughter]. was a writer and or is a writer and. historian still. And he is why we know. so much of this. He. >> um was writing a lot about John Linen, writing a lot about the Beatles. um he. decided to file uh Freedom of. Information Act requests to get a lot of.

these documents uncovered over the years. and eventually was successful um in a. big dump in 1997 and then in another. smaller one in 2006. >> and if it not been for his tenacity um I. don't know if uh anyone else would have. picked up this mantle to because you. know in the end. >> it's not the most interesting story in. the world. [laughter]. >> It's true. I say that in a whisper. It. It's not like some huge like, oh my god, revelations. It's sort of one of those. things that's like just another example.

of the small things that authoritarians. do in this country under, you know, in. in the back rooms and in the whispered. rooms of the White House. Well, you. know, I think like that's really true. and that's a really good point is that. like if you just look at it on his face. like you know the FBI followed around. John Lennin and kept tabs on him and. like if you read the files it's really. pedestrian boring stuff. Um you might. miss like the the real story here. And. the real story here is that a sitting. president directed the FBI to get dirt.

that he could use against a a political. rival, an activist rockstar to help get. him deported or to figure out what. leverage he could use against him so. that that that sitting president could. get reelected. That's the real story. here. And that the FBI acted as as you. know this um basically a Gestapo type. agency on behalf of Nixon. That's the. the real story that I think kind of gets. covered up by John Lennon and Yokoono.

Ono's celebrity and the you know the FBI. kind of wackily following him around. Yeah, it it is funny because if you look. at some of the files and some of the. reports like they would go to his. concerts and undercover agents would go. to the concerts and report things like, you know, he. >> for his encore he's saying give peace a. chance and we all know about that song, right? >> They they would take notes on song. lyrics and stuff like that. So, it's all. just kind of silly. But um yeah, I. definitely agree that it's it's just an. example of the links that Nixon would go.

to to Yeah. >> be a dirty thief. >> Yes. Well, Chuck, I think we should. demonstrate the links that we'll go to. to bring everyone a message break. What. do you think? >> By just shutting up for two minutes. >> Yep. [music]. >> [music].

>> Okay. So, the whole thing um started. eventually. It wasn't clear what was. going to happen, but the real thing that. kicked all of John Lennon's big problems. off was that he was arrested in 1968 in. London for possession of narcotics. Um, I'm making air quotes you can't see. because he was busted with some pot. I. think maybe some hash. Um, and like. rolling paraphernalia, just some really. BS beef um that they got him on in in. London. There was some true believer,

zealous anti-drug cop named Detective. Sergeant Norman Piltchure. um who was later jailed actually for. committing perjury uh as a police. officer. Um but he uh he was alleged to. have planted the evidence that may or. may not be true, but it was like a a a. wrap that Lennon shouldn't have had on. him or Yoko shouldn't have had on her. um that they they just wanted a. high-profile bust. And that happened in.

1968. And it turned out that that would. follow Lenin for years to come and. really kind of be the fulcrum that the. US government had on him to try to to. keep him from staying in the US. >> Yeah. I mean, he wasn't even doing. heroin at this point, I don't think. >> No. >> So, they should have waited if they. wanted a real case. Well, it makes you. wonder like I I I remember hearing in. our I think our Black Panther episode. that the FBI was not above like. addicting.

activists and dissident with heroin, like turning them on to heroin and then. getting them addicted and then just, you. know, taking them out of the game like. that. >> Yeah. I think Lynen never shot heroin. That was his jam. >> Okay. >> So, early 71, uh, like I said, he was. able to enter on a tourist visa. And. then when Nixon uh and his cronies get. going on the deportation, the whole. thing was based on the fact that he had. overstayed his visa. >> Um but along with that, it was very.

valuable to them that he had a uh a drug. conviction under his belt at that point. >> Yeah. >> So they were surveilling him. They were. surveilling other artists around the. country, too, uh who they thought were. subversive and sending messages. Um, Len, speaking of getting busted for pot, Linen uh very famously wrote a song. called John Sinclair uh in support and. did a tribute or not tribute but a a a. concert in um I don't know if they were. raising money. >> Yeah. >> Or just awareness?

>> Both. >> Okay. For John Sinclair, who was a poet, he was the manager of the the MC5, great. great rock band. Um, and [clears throat]. he offered two undercover cops uh, a. couple of joints and went to he had. already had a couple of minor pot. offenses, but he went to prison for 10. years for this. And a big refrain in. that song, John Sinclair, which is a. cool song and very um, rootsy and. bluesy, not like very linen at all. Uh, is 10 for two. 10 for two is what they.

keep saying. 10 years for two joints. >> Yeah. That he sold to a undercover cop, right? >> Yeah. But it worked. He actually was. sprung from prison shortly after this. concert. >> Yeah. Like two days after. And some. people say, "I think that indicates he. was already going to be sprung, that the. Michigan Supreme Court knew this was a. uh this is a trumped up charge." But. other people say, "No, the the concert. surely had some impact." But Sinclair is. um so the the point about Sinclair and.

John Lennin is John Linen performed the. song. He was the headliner at this. concert in Ann Arbor and he had been. coordinating with other people in John. Sinclair's orbit um that were prominent. figures in the new left and at this time. in the early 70s the 60s had ended. Um. they the it had become clear that flower. power hadn't worked. The evil people. were still in charge. So what was next? uh maybe nonviolent coordination and um.

and resistance wasn't the way to go. Now, Lenin and Yoko were dedicated. pacifists. They didn't want anything to. do with violence. They didn't condone. violence. They didn't like violence in. any way, shape, or form. But there were. elements in the new left um who weren't. necessarily convinced that that wasn't. the only way to to change the course of. of the United States and get rid of. people like Nixon and and his cronies. Um, and so if you're watching this from. the outside like your Jay Ghoover and. Richard Nixon, you're [snorts] watching.

the people on the new left and you don't. know which way they're going to break, violent, nonviolent, who knows? But. you're treating all of them with. suspicion. And all of a sudden, John. Lennon, one of the most recognizable and. popular people on the planet, is. suddenly hanging out with some of these. new left cats that you don't know which. way they're going to go, violent or. nonviolent. And that really drew the. attention of the FBI to John Lennon. wasn't necessarily he and Yoko and their. pacifist stuff. it w some people think.

that it was his involvement with genuine. bonafide new-left activists like John. Sinclair or like um like Bobby Seal um. like John Sinclair founded the White. Panther Party which they had a 10-point. platform like the Black Panthers. platform and the first platform in the. White Panther platform is that it's. fully in support of the Black Panthers. 10point platform. So, he's hanging out. with a bunch of people that um had. proven themselves as as as.

died in the wool foes of the Nixon. administration. That definitely caught. the FBI's attention. >> Yeah. And they had big plans. Uh they. got together and I think their first. meeting was at the Alam Alamuki. Township. [snorts] That's how I'm going. to pronounce it. >> The Scaramucci township. >> in New Jersey. and initially called. themselves the Alamuki tribe but uh. wisely changed their name to the. election year strategy information. center right. >> and their plan was in 1972 is to hosted.

and Lennon gave them money he gave them. like 75 grand to kind of get going. >> and said here let's do a bunch of. concerts with the help of John Lennin. all across uh all across the country in. 1972 we can have different artists. performing different speakers um you. know like pounding home the anti-war. message. And then as these concerts roll. closer and closer to the election, it'll. culminate in a big protest at the RNC in. Miami. Um, this is all very legal stuff.

It wasn't uh they weren't staging riots. or anything. These were just concerts, awareness, um, trying to keep Nixon from. winning. And Nixon got worried and he. knew uh that like you said the influence. that someone like John Linen could have. was like he didn't have anyone on his. side. There was no Scott Beao at the. time wooing the youngsters. >> Bob blah blah. >> to the right. Oh, he was Bob blah blah, wasn't he? >> That's funny. Um, so this is all going. on and this is kind of what ramps up the.

pressure to get Linen out of there. Uh, this custody battle's going on. They. know about that. And so their their. first step was to instruct immigration. and naturalization to try and say, "Hey, you've overstayed your visa. you got to. get out of here. And Lynon knew this was. coming. This is no secret. He had gone. on TV shows talking about being uh. followed by the FBI being uh having his. phone tapped, which we still aren't sure. if that really happened. >> Uh I think it says officially that there.

was no legal phone tapping in the FBI. documents, but that throwing that word. legal in there just kind of makes you. think like, well, were there any illegal. ones that you're not going to tell us. about? >> Yeah, I read I I I read an interview So, this is like the the depths of my. depravity. I didn't even listen to the. interview. I read a fresh air interview. with John Weiner or Winer um about this. and he said that in the the FBI. responded and said they they found no.

evidence of illegal wiretapping by the. FBI or no legal wiretapping by the FBI. So, so whiners like okay does that mean. they were doing illegal wiretapping or. does it mean that they didn't look very. hard for evidence? It doesn't mean that. they weren't tapping his phone is what. he's saying, >> right? Uh it at least made Linen. paranoid enough. >> Like he wasn't just not [clears throat]. he wasn't not sweating this. He was this. made him very paranoid. Um and with good. reason, but he took to going next door.

at the uh Dakota building. So he would. let Lennon use his phone in his. apartment uh to make phone calls. >> and I guess you know assist with the. cause at the same time a little bit. And. then the FBI said, "You know what could. really help is if we could bust them. currently for narcotics in the United. States if we have an active charge drug. charge against them." And Hoover sent it. out himself. He said, quote, "For info. on of bureau, uh, NYC narcotics division.

is aware of the subject's recent use of. narcotics, which is like every day, and. are attempting to obtain enough info to. arrest both subject and wife Yoko based. on PD investigation.". >> Yeah. And by this time, I'm thinking he. was using heroin. I think that's what. they were referencing as his recent use. >> Oh, really? I didn't think that started. till later. >> I thought it was the early 70s. I. thought it happened during his lost. weekend, but I may be wrong on that. I'm. not that far along. >> I'm going to air toward you then because.

I'm just surmising here. I'm not the one. who has a big old book of Beatles. history. >> So, um I don't know. They never they. never actually busted him, right? This. was all just like they were planning on. doing this, but they never needed to. >> I don't think he was arrested uh in the. United States, was he? >> Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't get that. impression, but but it seemed like. everything was kind of barreling toward. that. And even like you were saying, the. FBI was like, "We've let the NYPD know. to to to go do this." Um, so and if you.

take a step back, like this is some. heat. This is some pressure that they're. putting on Jon and Yoko. They're. basically saying, "We're going to split. you guys up by deporting Jon because we. know that Yoko is not going to leave the. country because of this custody battle. She can't afford to. So, she has to stay. here. So, if we threaten deportation to. John Lennon, it might actually um keep. him in line and the FBI used the word. neutralized, that they were seeking to. neutralize Lenin. Um, and I guess some.

people who don't dig very deeply into. the story were like they were going to. assassinate John Lennon and um John. Weiner Winer um has pointed out like. that's not at all what they meant. They. meant like basically making him. ineffective like um taking him out of. the game basically one way or another. Um but not killing him, just convincing. him through putting this undue, unfair, undemocratic pressure on him to drop his. activities with the new left.

>> Yeah. And they and by the way, I think I. think he probably was using heroin in. the late60s and had an on again. offagain. But either way, he. >> So, so that makes sense because I did. see that guys like Jerry Rubin and um uh. I think Renie Davis, a couple of like. the Chicago Seven, like they didn't even. like hang out with them because he was. doing too many drugs. And I I'm guessing. that it wasn't like he was smoking so. much pot we can't even talk with them. anymore. Like I think he was shooting. dope and they weren't.

>> Yeah. Well, he never shot it. He always. smoked it. >> or smoking dope. But he and I think he. and Yoko were doing heroin actually. before the Beatles broke up at the end. >> Okay. >> Uh when they were sort of estrange, not. the with the Beatles, not John Yoko. But. um at any rate, these, like I said, these investigations are going on and. they're going to his concerts. >> and they're not even sending back. information that really means much. They're even saying some of these. informants like, you know what, they're. they're not even really down with like. the new left isn't even down with them.

cuz they think they're just uh quote. self a grand arandizing rock stars. >> uh or there's little chance they'll. accomplish anything cuz they spend all. their time doing drugs. They're kind of. sending the message like [snorts]. >> you you really don't need to worry so. much about John Linen. He's not much of. a threat. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh kind of one of the funny. things about this investigation was when. um and Lynen was one of the most famous. people in the world, one of the most. recognizable faces in the world on. planet Earth along with Yokoono. >> Mhm. >> And the FBI passes around a sheet with.

Linen's picture on it so they can. recognize him, but [snorts] it was the. wrong photo. It was of a different human. being. It wasn't even John Linen. >> Yeah. It was a street busker from the. West Village named David Peele. >> So funny. who had a record that I guess. John Lennon helped produce or something. and he looked vaguely like John Lennon, but that was the that was the picture. that the FBI passed around to the cops. of the wrong guy. They also the FBI also. put out an all points bulletin um.

searching for John Linen and said that. he's at the St. Reges at 150 Bank. Street. Um. >> St. Reges Landscape Supply. >> That's right. [laughter]. I guess that's what they meant because. the St. Regis Hotel is on Central Park. Um, and John Lennon was indeed living on. Bank Street at the time, but he was at. 105 Bank Street. So, that all points. bulletin was all kinds of wrong, but. this is the level of like um coppery. that that that the FBI was conducting, you know, trying to get John Lennon.

>> All right. Well, let's take a break and. we'll come back and talk a little bit. about Linen's uh official defense right. after this. [music]. All. >> [music]. [music]. >> right. So, John Lennin is not going to. take this lying down. Uh, he was he was.

paranoid. He was going on like the Mike. Douglas show and talking about the FBI. coming after him. Um the first thing he. did was probably what any really really. rich person would do is he hires a top. rate bulldog attorney um to try and. defend this or at least delay this. And. this guy's name was Leon Wilds. And he. really did delay this. He was sort of a. master at filing these motions and. getting it extended and extended and. Lynen was able to stay in the country. longer and longer and longer. But he was. also kind of instrumental in um kind of.

letting Lennon know that this was a real. situation that he was involved in. Right. Um the thing is is if you um are. a immigration prosecutor for the federal. government of the United States, you. know that there is not a ton of. resources allocated to your division, right? Or traditionally there hasn't. been. And so customarily the justice. department has or or I guess INS has. left it up to each prosecutor to.

determine how hard they want to. prosecute the case. And so if you are a. um upstanding person who's never posed. any sort of threat to the United States. and maybe you own a business or you're a. productive member of society, there's a. chance that the INS is going to look the. other way and not actually deport you. Even if you are here illegally, you've. overstayed your visa or you came into. the country illegally, who knows? Um and. that's actually where the dreamer.

program came from. DACA. Uh it basically. said like the these particular. immigrants were brought here as children. and they um pose no threat. Most of them. are going to college or collegebound or. they're in the military so we're going. to not deport them. Um and what what. Lennon's um lawyer told him was like all. of this is true and yet they're putting. the heat on you like I have never seen. This is this is clearly coming down from. on high. like they want to get you out. of the United States and it's not just.

this prosecutor. >> Yeah. And the other thing that happens. uh when it comes to a case like this is. they have to weigh uh or they can be. decided basically on the value that an. immigrant uh might bring to the US by. being an American uh or living in the. United States. >> Mhm. >> And so there was, you know, it's kind of. funny to look back now and think that. there had to be a case made that John. Lennon brings any kind of value, but. they did. And there was a series of. letters written um by Bob Dylan and John.

Bayz and Joyce Carol Oats, Leonard. Bernstein, John Updike, just a series of. very famous artists. >> kind of arguing in favor of John Linen. being allowed to live here. It was sort. of a flood of public outcry like what. you know what little was known back then. at least like you can't let just there. there's tremendous value to letting John. Lennin stay in this country, >> right? And don't forget John Cage wrote. a letter, too. And I'm sure it was kind. of like, well, you know, do you want me. to write a letter for you, John? He's.

like, uh, yeah, sure. I'm I'm sure that. would help a lot, John Cage, because I'm. sure no one in the Nixon. administration's ever heard of you. >> Yeah, probably. So, >> so, um, the the one kind of the upshot, I'm just going full on using this word. now. The upshot of of that letterw. writing campaign was not even just so. much to demonstrate the value of of John. Lennon remaining in the United States. It was if you kick him out, like there's. going to be a public outcry and you're.

going to be held to account and asked to. explain why you guys kicked him out. Um. so it did have a bit of that combined. with um his his attorney's tenacity, it. kept John Lennin in the country. He was. actually never deported even though they. were he had a he lived for I think two. or three years with a you have 60 days. to leave the country order and his his. lawyer kept getting it extended and. extended and extended but for three. years that was the threat that he was. living under and again if he was.

deported he would leave without his wife. who had to stay in the country for her. own custody battle. Um, so that was that. was a a lot of strain on him actually. And um, the the the worst part about. this whole thing is not that the FBI did. this and that the Nixon administration. singled out or that it all came down to. STM Thurman writing this memo to kick. things off. It was that it worked. Like. they sought to neutralize John Lennon. and his political activism and he. stopped. He actually did. He gave in uh.

in August of 1972 by announcing that he. was not going to take part in that. series of concerts that was going to. culminate at the Republican National. Convention uh or engaged in any kind of. activist activities any longer. He was. just going to go back to being a a. musician again. >> Yeah. And by this point uh Hoover was. dead. Um El Patrick Gray was the acting. director of the FBI. And in that same. month, that August, uh, before the. election, in November, um, the FBI's New.

York office reported to Gray that he's. no longer going to be involved with. these concerts. He's no longer with the. new left. Um, we don't really need to. worry about him anymore. >> Um, we're going to basically settle this. case and close this case after Nixon. wins the election. And like we said. earlier a couple of times, by landslide. So, this was all sort of for not anyway. Um Gerald Ford ended up overturning. Linen's deportation order in 1975 that. was already filed and in 76 he got his.

green card and lived in New York very. famously in the Dakota for the last four. years of his life uh before he was. murdered in the street uh which I think. we should do an episode on that at some. point maybe in a couple of years once. this one is well in the rearview mirror. >> You bet it' be a good one. >> I agree. Um, so if if John Lennon. apparently before he died, he gave a. couple interviews and he said of this. time like that it nearly ruined him as. an artist, you know, like you said, he.

wasn't he wasn't just not sweating it. like he sweated it every day. It was a. big hairy problem in his life all the. time and a source of great stress. Um, so in addition to the stress, it it it. stole his focus. Like it made him think. about that and like how much he hated. the Nixon administration and how. terrible the FBI was for how they were. harassing him and possibly tapping his. phone. And it just took his mind from. his art. And he later said that it.

almost ruined him as an artist because. the the work he was producing at the. time was journalism, not poetry, as he. put it. um which is a very sad effect, but it's it's a really real world effect. when you've got something just looming. in the front of your mind that you can't. get out of your mind, especially if it's. dealing with badness. That's that has a. terrible effect on you and and your life. in general. It can produce an entire bad. period of your life, you know.

>> Yeah. Uh he was like, I had to let Yoko. sing a lot. >> I've got I have something I have to say. I don't want to forget it. In one of the. FBI notes at that John Sinclair concert, >> Mhm. >> the FBI informant reported that the song. John Sinclair was not up to Glennon's. usual standards. And [laughter]. you get this, Yoko can't even remain on. key. >> That was an FBI informant. >> Yeah, he had a good ear. But and you. know, it it I like the song. It doesn't.

like belong up there with his greatest. songs, >> but it was very it was very clear. It. was sort of in the tradition of protest. songs. It's got this acoustic slide. Dorbro guitar and uh you know it sort of. it fits in with the great folk songs of. all time I think but not necessarily one. of the great linen or beetle songs. >> Is it as good as John Henry was a steel. driving man? >> I think it's better. I like it better. >> Really? >> Uh yeah. And you know, like we mentioned. earlier, the reason we know all this was.

because of Weiner's reporting. And uh he. eventually got those documents released. and there was, you know, in his circle. there was a big hub like what's going to. be in there. Um what what secrets are. will be revealed and really not much. What was revealed was um embarrassment. for the FBI, embarrassment that they. released a picture that wasn't even John. Linen, uh embarrassment that they had a. very unethical um and perhaps even.

illegal. >> um motivation behind trying to get uh uh. this person deported. And it was just. egg on the face. And that's why they. tried to keep it under wraps for so many. years, hoping that it would not get out. Not because there were some big. revealing documents, but they were just. like, can we just sort of act like this. didn't happen? >> Yeah. So, we'll we'll classify. everything as a national security risk. And they did. And actually that that. last trove of documents, the little. handful that trickled out at in 2006 was. a MI5, a kind a British Secret Service.

um file on London that the US said if. they it was it it that last bit of. document contained a file from a foreign. government that had trusted the US to. keep it and that it could result in e. economic, diplomatic, and military. action if they were to release it. like. the UK was just gonna gonna bomb the US. for releasing their document or their. file on John Lennon. That's why the FBI. held on to it until 2006 and then they.

lost a court case. So like if there's a. hero of the story, it's John Weiner or. John Winer. I don't know how he says his. name and I'm sorry either way because he. was the one that really stood up not. just for John Lennon but for the first. amendment, you know, and and people's. ability to be politically active. without, you know, the threat of being. intimidated. >> Um, so good for him. >> Totally. >> Uh, you got anything else about this? >> Got nothing else? >> Uh, I have a an article to direct.

everybody to is on pop matters. John. Lennon Colon revolutionary man as. political artist and it's about all this. sorry history but also just um a pretty. good critical evaluation of him as an. activist and and it's just a a really. good interesting article. So check it. out. And since I said check it out. everybody, it's time for listener mail. >> Uh this is in reference of our haunted. real estate. Uh I guess that was a short.

stuff, right? Had to be. Yeah. Yeah, it. was. >> Like, please tell me we didn't do 45. minutes on that. >> We could have. [laughter]. >> Uh, hey guys, been a listener for years. and finally have a good reason to write. you. I was listening to the episode on. whether you're supposed to disclose. whether a house is haunted or not, and. it hit close to home. 2 years ago, we. bought our first house and I made a. point to run a report to see if anyone. died [music] in the house. The previous. owner had just died within a year, but. it didn't say where. I wasn't really. worried about someone actually dying in. the house. I was really just trying to.

get a big discount. [laughter] However, the agent said he did no, so no big. discount. Uh, cut to 2 years later, I. found out from neighbors and research. that the previous owner did not die. However, he was a creep who actually had. multiple abuse charges. In fact, I found. an article stating that he had a woman. tied up in our basement, >> man. >> Who he tortured until she was luckily. able to escape. >> uh for weeks. Uh, that's like almost. worse than just a regular.

>> just somebody dying of natural causes. It's a million times worse. >> Well, no. I was about to say worse than. a murder. I guess they're on par. >> Yeah. Well, let's debate that at length. >> I don't want to I don't want to rank. awful crimes, [laughter]. >> right? >> But I think that might creep me out just. as much. Let's just say that. >> Sure. >> Uh, the police searched the house and. found oodles of weapons. The charges. were eventually dropped. Apparently, he. had money and he redid the entire. basement, which is beyond creepy. I. don't know if this qualifies as info. that should have been provided to us at.

purchase, but it sure seems like it, huh? >> Yeah. >> Uh, that is from Andy. Uh, and I. >> Oh, okay. Well, thanks a lot, Andy. Uh, is is there a heart over the eye? >> Uh, no, but it's typed. >> Is it um it could be uh Andy McDow? I. think she spelled her name like that. I. could see something like this happening. to Andy McDow. Can't you? >> Sure. I love Andy McDow. >> Well, whether it's from Andy McDow or. not, we appreciate the email. Um, thank. you. And yes, I I agree. I think the. realtor should have disclosed that, if.

you ask me. >> Totally. Uh, if you want to let us know. about some way a realtor wronged you or. anybody did, we want to hear about it. You can send us an email to stuff. podcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.