Selects: Is birth order important? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, Chuck here with this. week's Saturday select. That's when Josh. and I curate specially selected episodes. to rerun that may be a few years old. They may be oh heck, they may be 10. years old, maybe even older. You never. know cuz a lot of people don't know. these episodes even exist. So that's why. we do this. So anyway, uh this one's on. birth order. It's called Is Birth Order. Important? Uh I believe this was. originally a Chuck idea to begin with. This is from April 23, 2019.

And I am just pretty obsessed with Birth. Order. And so that's why I picked it to. begin with. And that's why I'm picking. it again right now. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark. There's Charles Chuck. Bryant. There's Jerry over there. And this is stuff you should know.

>> Jerry, were you a uh what was your birth. order? >> Oh, Jerry's a middle child. Two of two. or two of more. So, you're the baby. You. don't know this? >> No. Did you? >> Sure. >> No. I've known Jerry for like 13 years. >> So have I. >> Well, not that long. 12 years. >> So have I. >> Well, no comment. Okay. What am I? >> I don't know.

>> That's right. >> I know. >> what. >> I'm the baby. You know that. >> Yeah. I didn't ask what you were. I know. you know what you are. What am I? >> This isn't quiz time. You're not going. to just uh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I wasn't calling you out. Oh, well, I. was calling you out. You were. >> in a humorous way. >> And I called you out. >> Um it's hard not to look at this stuff. through your own lens though of your own. family, you know. >> Are you changing the subject? >> Well, no. I'm getting on with it. >> Okay. Um because as the youngest of. three. and all of us have three distinct.

personalities, it's hard not to kind of. like think about birth order, right? >> And if that's a thing, >> right? >> And it may be and it may not be. >> Yeah. >> Depends on which scientist you're. asking. >> I I tend to think like there's just no. way it doesn't have any effect. >> No, there I think it definitely has an. effect, but as we will see, it is one. part of a huge pie. Yes, >> that uh that indicates what kind of. person and personality you might have.

>> Well, plus also it's devilishly tricky. to to analyze to study. >> because of how big that pie is. >> Yeah. There's so much going on with your. personality that to just pinpoint one. thing, even a big thing like the where. you're born in a family. Um it's just. tough to pin down. So, >> you're the youngest, right? >> Good guess. Yes, I am. >> I knew you were the youngest. >> I I'm like I wear that on my sleeve.

>> I feel like I kind of do, too. >> In a lot of these, >> maybe I guess in some ways, but like I. was reading this checklist for the. youngest. >> Yeah, >> I'm like, yeah, guess so. Let's let's. let's do this. >> Should we go over that that stuff first? >> Yeah, totally. >> All right. So, this is like the sort of. macro view of how a lot of people think. of birth order. Is that a fair way to. say Pop psychology. >> Yeah. >> So, if you were born into a family, there's basically four ways that you can.

be born in some sort of order. You can. be the first born. >> Mhm. >> You can be a middle child. >> Mhm. >> Or you can be the last born and then if. you're a real outlier. >> Okay, you're right. So, there's five. >> Or a triplet. >> Oh god. Yeah. >> Don't even get me started. Um. >> let's just say a multi. >> Okay. A multi. Um or you can be an only. child too. >> Sure. >> And all of them have distinct. personalities again according to pop. psychology but also according to every.

person who's ever been born. >> Yeah. >> Into a family especially. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so with the firstborn um the whole. the whole theory of basically birth. order where where you're born into the. family unit that you're born into and. what effect that has on your personality. and how it develops. It all seems to. come down to this idea that you are born. into a family where there is a finite. resource called parental attention. >> And then that is a pie that gets. increasingly divided up into smaller and.

smaller pieces the more and more. children that are born because your. parents can't possibly give five kids. the same amount of attention that they. could give an only child. It's just not. possible. And so what dynamics are. created in the personality of the kids. born into that family depending on how. many others are born and depending on. where they fall in that birth order. That's kind of the premise of the whole. thing. And over time people have said, "Well, this is what the firstborn's. like. This is what the middle's like. This is what the baby's like.".

>> Yeah. And there were I mean a lot of. this are these are generalizations, but. they are generalizations like you said. that kind of everyone who's ever been in. a family can kind of say, "Yeah, that's. kind of true, >> right?" Um, you know, when you have a an. only or your first kid, >> they this article references it as that. first sort of experiment, you don't know. what you're doing yet. Um, you're. probably going all in depending on how. lazy you are, how motivated you are as a. parent with this, you know, being a.

super parent. And then if supposedly as. you have more children, you get it's not. only is your attention divided, I think, but there's the notion that you also are. like, you know what, I I probably don't. need to be as crazy with number two and. number three. >> Um, leave them to their own devices. >> As a third kid, I'm not going to get. into too many depressing details of my. family growing up. >> Yeah. But like by the time I was 10 and. 11,

my parents had other things going on. >> Yeah. >> And I I wasn't feral. >> Other kids on the side? >> Not exactly. Um I wasn't feral by any. means, but I was uh I did not have rules. imposed on me like my brother and sister. did. I did not have. >> I was allowed to go to Panama City for. spring break and they weren't. I was. allowed to kind of do my own thing. >> and I was trustworthy. So that probably. had a lot to do with it. >> Yeah. >> If that would have been a real problem, they might have clamped down a little.

more or maybe not. >> And they probably wouldn't have. necessarily clamped down like we need to. give Chuck way more attention and. guidance than we have been. They would. have probably been like. >> crime and punishment. >> We they would have been like, "We're. sending Chuck to rehab or whatever." You. know what I mean? Let rehab take care of. or reform school or something like that. because once you get x number of kids. in, you're just so tired. Yeah. >> So tired and you're older, too. >> Sure. >> Like when you're chasing a little kid. around in like your 40s or 50s, that's. different than when you're chasing a.

little kid around in your mid20s. >> I can't imagine. >> A world of difference, you know. Um so. there's a there's there there's a lot of. resources, not just, you know, parents. attention, but also their time, intellectual attention that they'll give. a kid like in say um like hanging out, teaching the kid to read, that kind of. stuff. um and just attention in general. and also financial resources. The. family's resources in general are a pie. that must be divided among all. >> financial emotional all that stuff.

instructive. >> Yeah. >> Uh so generally speaking uh firstborns. people say tend to be uh very. conscientious and structured and. reliable uh and high achie uh high. achievers. >> Yeah. Because their parents are focusing. like a laser on them. They know. everything that the kids's got going on. Maybe a little too much. Um, and the kid. is responding to this by basically. becoming a perfectionist and really. wanting to be around their parents.

>> Yeah. >> Um, and and um. >> their parents' friends, more mature, >> very much mature because they're all of. the people or most of the people are. hanging out with are adults. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, that's a firstborn typically, right? Everybody knows it. Don't try to. deny it. Uh, middles in general are people. pleasing, which is so my brother. Um, >> that's weird to me because when I think. of middle children, I think of Jan. Brady. And Jan Brady was not a people. pleaser. She was just, you know, a lump.

like a lump with a cloud over her head. >> A poor Jan. >> But that's true. Like I would not. characterize Jan Brady as a people. pleaser. Would you? >> No. >> Like I She was going to burn something. down eventually if the Brady Bunch had. stayed on the air long enough. >> Was also a blended family. So, what was. uh. >> Oh, yeah. >> Who was the It was Bobby and then uh was. it Peter? >> Peter was lateral, I guess you'd call. him. >> Was he a Was he a people pleaser? >> Uh or just a. >> Peter? Jan. >> More than Jan,

but blended families do confound things. We'll get into that later. >> Yeah, for sure. Um but peopleleasing, uh. somewhat rebellious, which is not my. brother at all. Um large social circle, not really my brother. And a peacemaker, totally my brother. >> He's the best. He's the best. Uh, and. then the young, youngies, youngans. >> Uhhuh. >> Like us. >> Um, most free-spirited, funloving, uncomplicated, manipulative. >> Uhhuh. >> I've I've been called some of these.

things to varying degrees. >> Self-centered, attention-seeking, and. outgoing. >> Check and check. >> But uncom. >> combine you and I, and we're sort of. like the proto youngest. >> Uncomplicated, though. I'm like, I don't. get that. Adam, I'm I'm I'm exquisitly. complicated. >> I'm on the surface you wouldn't think. it, but I'm pretty complicated. >> Sure. >> As we all know in this room. >> But that's the only one that I'm like. that I I I question. >> Yeah. >> All the rest of them are like, "Yeah, that makes sense.". >> It's like the Chinese zodiac. You look.

at that menu and you're like, "Oh, I'm a. total dog.". >> Yes. And Mugu Guy Pan sounds great right. now. >> Uh Onies, no siblings. You are what they. call almost like a super firstborn. >> Sounds scary. >> All of the traits of a firstborn on. steroids, right? >> Very much a perfectionist, very much. more mature for your age, uh, conscientious, diligent, uh, prone to be. leader, >> can leap over tall buildings.

>> Uh, and then this is where it gets. interesting. And this sort of starts to. >> finally everybody, this is where it. starts to get interesting. Well, this is. where it gets in a little bit like how. complicated it can get because there's. so many factors at play like um what if. you're in a blended family cuz that kind. of throws it all out of whack. >> Yeah, dude. Because it can if you're. born a firstborn. >> and you your parents your parents get. divorced and you you go with your mom. who gets remarried to a dude who has.

>> Yes. >> to a smashing cool architect. >> For sure. Um, and he has an a kid that's. a little older than you, >> Greg. >> Greg's the first born. You're not the. first born anymore. The best you can. hope for is to form some sort of. confederacy or alliance with Greg to. rule the rest of the siblings, >> but you're not the head honcho anymore. You're not in charge. That's a big deal. I can't imagine many more traumatic. experiences, especially when that. follows closely on the heels of your. parents' divorce or the death of like.

your other parent. Um that's got to be. one of the most traumatic things a kid. can go through is to lose the their. identified perch in the family order. >> Yeah. And and that's you were we were. talking about like the firstborn like. the baby of the family if all of a. sudden there's a younger. >> no good. >> No. >> Like I remember my parents for some. reason talking about adopting a kid. >> Uhhuh. >> I can't remember how old I was. I must. have been about seven. And I remember. breaking down and crying and just being.

like, "You can't do this, right? You. cannot bring in someone younger and. cuter, right, than me.". >> Yeah. >> And that happens. >> Losing my looks. I'm seven. >> A blended family. If all of a sudden you. be a younger or god forbid a baby. >> Yeah. >> Just forget about it. >> Can't compete with that. >> You got to kill that baby. >> Well, that's what happened, too. When. Brady Bunch started to lose ratings, apparently your family was losing. ratings. So they were talking about that. they brought in cousin Oliver, a new. baby. And I don't think Bobby was very.

happy about that either. >> No, but just think about Jan. It all. makes a little bit more sense. Like she. was like, "I'm the middle child." And. then they brought in three more and she. was like, "I'm even more middle.". >> Yeah. You're diluted. The the middle. child is diluted. And if you have. multiple middle children, forget about. it. >> That's right. However, here's the thing. with blended families. They say by about. the age of five that a lot of your. personality is set. M. >> So if you're older than five and all of. a sudden your family is blended, >> they say it may not make that much of a.

difference. >> No, no, no. That's where it's trouble. If you're younger than five and your. your personality is a little more. plastic, if you were born a baby of the. family and suddenly you're a firstborn. or you're not the or you're a middle. kid, you'll adapt to that a lot better. than you would if you're like older and. you're you're more solid in your birth. order. >> Yeah. I didn't mean not uh trouble. But. what I meant was like if you're uh like. 12 years old and the family blending. happens, it's trouble, but it's it's not.

like your personality is like all of a. sudden I'm the the youngest or you know. what I mean? Like you don't all of a. sudden swap to a different birth order. personality, I don't think. >> Right. But if you're younger and it. happens, you do. >> Right. Under the age of five, >> which goes to show that if this is a. thing, and we'll talk about whether it. is or not soon. Yeah. Um, it has nothing. to do with biology. It has everything to. do with with nurture, not nature. Because a kid can adapt depending on.

when this happens. They can adapt to a. change in birth order if they're young. enough. >> Yeah. >> That means it has nothing to do with. biology. It's all the environment you're. raised in, which is. >> the most boneheadedly obvious thing on. the planet. >> And then before we take a break, there. are also gap children. Um, supposedly if. there's at least a fiveyear gap between. births, then it just sort of resets. >> That was like me and my oldest sister. She was 13 years older than me, >> right? >> She was just like this older cool.

person, but not like an old older. sister. Not at all overbearing, really. like sweet, looked out for me, I guess, a little bit. >> or like a second mom kind of to an. extent. >> Cuz that does happen too if there's a. big gap or a big family. Yeah. >> Like I dated a girl in New Jersey that. had there was like six or seven of them. >> and the by the time she came around she. was kind of fully being raised by her. siblings. >> Right. Right. You know. >> and so so what happens when there's. enough of a gap a new family birth order.

forms. So like if you have an oldest and. then there's multiple years like say 10. years between your oldest and your. middle and then two years between your. middle and your baby. The middle and the. baby are going to form a firstborn and a. lastborn type relationship. >> Yeah. And the last born is always going. to be the last born. >> Yes. >> Regardless of gap. >> But then twins like you were saying is. one last confounding thing. >> They twins or triplets, multiples as you. call them.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think so. Uh they form their own. family unit within the family too with. each other. And apparently no matter. where they're born, twins never act like. middle kids. They always act like the. firstborn or the baby, but to one. another, >> right? And I think they generally come. together to kill the parents. >> basically, right? >> They hold hands. It's like an elevator. of blood washes around them. Uh and then. finally with adoption um they say that. depending on when your child is adopted.

the same kind of scen uh scenario. happens as in like with gapped and. blended families. >> right whereas if the kid's young enough. he or she will tailor their um their. their birth order to the family that. they're adopted into. But if they're. older it'll be trouble. >> All right, that's a good overview. Think. >> I think it was a great overview, Chuck, cuz I'm glowing from it. >> We're going to uh you do have that. overview glow. >> We're going to take a break and we're.

going to talk about uh science right. after this. [Music]. All. right, Chuck, as promised, we're going. to talk about science because like I. said, this is so boneheaded and obvious.

to every single person who's ever been. born into a family. Everybody knows this. stuff. >> Yeah. >> But as far as science is concerned, this. is not proven that birth order effects, as they're called, actually exist. that. science is saying hold your slow your. roll everybody. >> We can't actually prove that what. everybody knows is actually true. >> Yeah. >> Um some some studies show that yes, there is such a thing as birth order. effects. Other studies show that there.

is no birth order effect whatsoever. And. then some studies suggest that if there. are birth order effects, they're so. small that they are basically a blip on. your personality. that all the other. factors that form your personality, things like the socioeconomic status of. the family you're born into, your racial. background, your um gender, all the. other stuff. Um that is what really. forms your personality, not the order. you're born into your family. That's. kind of science's position right now.

>> Yeah. But what they all agree on is that. it is therapy cash cow, >> right? That that that Yes. It's a it's a. good it's a useful framework to approach. psychotherapy from and that's where. >> they all want to talk about it at high. hourly rates. >> See to me I'm like this is sure this is. exactly what forms your personality but. I get science's position I respect it. >> So if we go back in time uh to the early. 1900s there was a man named Alfred uh. Adler. He was a part of a he was a.

contemporary of Freud. And this is when. all these dudes were getting together uh. to talk about all this stuff and this. burgeoning science and they all thought. they were so cool and important. >> And um. he was one of the only ones among his. peers though at the time that was. talking about birth order that early. >> Yeah. and he went on to form what we. know as uh Adleran psychology uh or. individual psychology and it's basically.

a therapy based on um how you perceive. your own level of power in your family. at your workplace in the world at large. >> in general like your perceived power. place of position or status right. >> yeah and if he believed in birth order. having a significant influence on your. personality. >> then that in turn would influence how. powerful you may or may not feel. >> Yeah. Because to Adler, if if how you. perceived your own power, not. necessarily how powerful you were, but. your own perception of power was the.

driving force of like what how you. interacted with the world, your. personality. Um, birth order would make. total sense because birth order, as. everybody knows, is nothing but p. positions of superiority or inferiority. >> Yeah. And it's it's as simple as that. because when you're born and you're a. little kid and you're born into a family. with an older sibling, they are a couple. of steps ahead of you because they've. already been through a bunch of stuff. Yeah. >> So, they're inherently superior to you. They can also beat you up on a very.

basic level. They can twist your arm. behind your back until it feels like. it's going to break. And no matter how. many times you say, "Uncle, uncle, uncle," they won't stop until they're. satisfied. >> Or protect you like my big brother did. >> That's great. from his friends that were. jerks to me, >> right? >> He wouldn't stand for it. >> No. Couple of. >> We went at it, too. You know, we were. brothers, but. >> sure, >> he never picked on me. >> No. >> You know why? >> Because you're Chuck. >> and he's Scott, >> right? >> Uh, in the 80s is when I mean, there.

were always studies starting since Adler. and Freudstein, but in the 1980s is when. it really blew up thanks to um the big. five. >> Oh, >> and cocaine. the big five personality. trait uh view of things. Um and that's. when things in the 80s that's when. everybody was just like eating this. stuff up. >> Yeah. Because so the big five. personality inventory is we've talked. about it before but basically it is a um. a self-reported measure that is actually. valid. It actually works. Like you can.

say this person is highly neurotic. Yeah. or this person is extroverted or. um well three others that I can't bring. to mind right now but these things are. also kind of broken into subcategories. like these are big umbrella terms that. have more specific subcategories but. it's actually like valid like somebody. who fills this survey out. >> it's going to be an accurate assessment. of their personality. So, if you have. somebody's personality, >> that's huge, right? You can say, "All. right, um, if this person's neurotic,

they're highly neurotic. Let's see what. birth order they are. Oh, they're a. middle child. Let's compare them to. other middle children who filled out. this personality survey, scored high on. neurosis." And all of a sudden, we can. show if you're a middle child, you're. far likelier to be highly neurotic under. the Big Five personality inventory than. a a firstborn is, right? Boom. Bam. You. just proved that birth order effects. exist. Or did you? >> Yeah.

They're like, we can put people further. into a box and label them. >> Sure. >> Um or did you? Because that is sort of. the paradox uh that arrive that we. arrive at, which is you pointed to it a. little bit earlier. There are so many so. many influences, >> right, >> that go into what makes you you. >> that uh it's hard to look at birth order. as a mere small part of that. >> Yes. So, so. >> like you can't account you can account. for some of these in studying it, >> right? >> You know, there's a lot of studies over.

the years and they do their best, but. you can't account for all of them. >> Well, okay. So, so we'll go back to that. example. So you've you've just gone to. your peers and said, "Look, >> I have just proven that middle children. are highly neurotic compared to other. children in birth orders, right?". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Then you're shaking your own fists. around your your shoulders in triumph. And they say, "Well, wait a minute. Wait. a minute. Um, did you control for. socioeconomic background?" And you go, "Uh, no, I didn't." Well, wait. Did you. control for race? No. Did you control.

for gender? No. And so all of a sudden. you realize there's all these different. um independent variables. >> Oh, tons. >> What what what in this case would be. confounding variables that might. actually be the thing influencing it. It. might be the fact that they are um uh fe. women born into families of a low. socioeconomic state that is driving. neurosis, right? That that's actually. the thing that is driving it rather than. birth order. It has nothing to do with.

being a middle child. That's just a. fluke, a coincidence. >> Yeah. >> And like you said, there's so many. confounding variables. >> and so many things that make our. personalities who we are that some. people who are like birth order effects. do not exist. >> Basically say that any birth order study. that shows that they do exist has some. confounding variable that's that's the. actual hidden thing that's driving it. That you can't possibly control for. everything to make a perfectly. designed experiment to for birth order.

>> Yeah. But like when you start to think. about like if you were just to sit there. and sort of jot down things as. non-scientists, just regular schmos like. us, >> right? >> Uh and just jot down a list of what. other factors might be at play, we could. probably come up with a list of a. hundred things between us. >> Let's start now. >> But that would like if I was studying. this stuff and I started to make that. list, I would just walk away and go into. another line of study. >> Sure. >> I would be like, "Dude, I just, you. know, were your parents married? Were. they divorced? When did they get. divorced? Did you like hot dogs?

>> Did you live with mom or dad? How far. apart did they live? What kind? Were you. suburban? Were you urban? Yeah. >> Were did you live in an exerb? Did you. grow up in the woods? >> Did you start work at 12? Uh. >> were you like old timey? >> I started work at 12. >> I guess I did too. I had a paper route. >> Yeah, I was a bus boy. >> Oh, nice. >> Um. >> Oh, wait. Was that where the guy put his. foot into the. >> Yeah. Yeah. Brunch. >> What a criminal. >> I told you that's a Title Max now. that. restaurant. >> Uhhuh. >> I drove by not too long ago.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. JJ's Barbecue. >> Title Max. Now they're putting their. foot on titles. >> Just stomping on them. >> Yeah. But they got your money. Your. money. Your real money. >> They're never going to sponsor us now. Um, another few things that can confound. these studies. um are things and and Ed helped us put. this research together. Uh things like. demographic shifts. So he gave a great. example of like the baby boom. If. there's a big population bulge. >> that also coincides with a lot of other.

stuff. >> um and the example he used was. prevalence of cigarette smoking. >> Uh there may be a false correlation. there between being a firstborn and. smoking whereas if you were secondborn. 12 years later I guess that would fall. outside that range though of gap child. >> maybe. >> Um. >> but that's even more confounding. The. point's still valid. >> Sure. that like there's just way more. firstborns who smoke than second borns. But that's because smoking was more.

prevalent when there were a bunch of. kids born who were all of the same. cohort and all firstborns, >> right? >> That's just one of the ways this thing. can be confounded. >> Yeah. This one really speaks to me, which is labeled as growth. Uh when a. birth order effect does appear, it is. strongest when they a subject is with. their siblings. >> Yeah. when you're a family reunion, everybody falls back into that. >> It is so funny how that happens. >> I see myself do it. Like, good example.

>> I turned 48 a couple of weeks ago. >> My family, my sister and her husband. happened to be in town. Didn't come for. that, >> but we were texting and I was like, "Hey, let's all, you know, this is. great. Let's all go out to dinner.". >> She's like, "Oh, well, I didn't want to. I just figured you wouldn't want to. spend your birthday with your friends. You'd want to spend your birthday with. your friends and not your family." And I. saw Michelle when she got in town and. she said the same thing in person. I was. like, "Dude, I'm 48.". >> Yeah. >> It's like I'm not 22-y old Chuck. >> I know. Some burnout. >> like I used to be. >> And she just sort of laughed. But that's.

a perfect example of how like no matter. what happens in my life, I will always. be the baby. >> Yeah. >> And she will probably feel like she has. to look out for me, which is a nice. feeling. >> It is. >> Um I see Emily fall into patterns with. her family. >> What is she? Uh well, she is a she's an. interesting case because she was an only. and then has a half brother and a half. sister. >> Okay. >> Her dad Yeah. her dad went and had a a. son with another woman and then her mom.

got married to her father-in-law Steve. who already had a daughter. Um so it's a. sort of a weird mix. But I just mean in. general, not even with siblings, you. know, just in how their family dynamic. is. She's a different person when we go. over there. >> Yeah. I think all of us I think. everybody is around their family. It's. >> so strange. >> Yeah. >> Um so this is when it sort of started me. down the path of like what is.

personality? Is it a is a personality. trait? Is it this just is it repeated. behaviors? Is it a set of behaviors? Like is that personality? >> Are you asking me? >> Yeah. I mean, I don't even know like. what is personality? We should do a show. on that. >> Oh, we totally should. But from what I. understand, just kind of briefly put it, personality is the kind of predictable. way that you'll react to the world, right? Is it easy for somebody to press. your buttons? Um, are you laidback? Are.

you like, could somebody, however, if. somebody were presented with a This is. going terribly. If somebody were. presented with a um a like an event in. life, >> okay, >> you could say Josh would probably. respond to like that. >> Yeah, >> that's a personality, >> right? But is that something inherent or. is it birth order or is it just a. collection of learned behaviors? >> I think it's a collection of learned and. reinforced behaviors, too. If you're. told you're the baby of the family all. the time, you're going to act like the.

baby of the family. You're going to act. self-centered. You're going to act. manipulative. It's reinforced. If you're. told um you uh you can do anything, you. can you can go out and do anything. You. can literally walk through walls because. someone told you to. They reinforce that. behavior. But I think that's what. personality is. And this is just me. talking. I also believe in birth order. effects, by the way. But I think that. that is it's it's. learned and reinforced, which means it. can be unlearned. You can learn to be.

different. >> Yeah. At that same birthday dinner, I picked. up the check for everyone. Oh, nice. And. there was a bit of a. >> not an argument, bloody struggle. >> My mom and I were, you know, kind of off. to the side with the people who worked. there doing the credit card battle. >> and she she wasn't super happy and I. should have just let her pay, >> but at at it's part of that thing like. I'm the baby of the family. And I kind. of just finally told her like, "Listen, mom, it's like it's my turn to pay.". >> Nice. >> You know, I'm not the baby anymore. like.

quit writing me a check for $100 on my. birthday. >> Do you uh do you do you cash this? >> Yeah. I mean, I generally just put it in. my kids' bank account. >> Oh, that's a good thing to do, you know. Yeah. We don't cash the. >> Because I also don't want to take away. the joy that she gets from writing me. the $100 check. Sure. That's not cool. >> No. >> It's like I don't need that from her, but like that's what brings her joy. >> Yeah. Giving you money. >> It's complicated. >> So, let me teach you a little a little. trick. >> Oh, okay. >> If you don't want to get into that. tussle, if you just wanted to be done, sorry, it's too late.

>> Uhhuh. When you order, when you hand the. menu back to the server, >> just have be holding your credit card. with your thumb and give them a look. >> It's universal, dude. They all know and. they'll take it and be like, and you got. to first. Nobody else does that. They. always wait and they pretend to go to. the bathroom like after everybody's. done. It's so obvious. You got to start. before the food even comes, before the. drinks even come. >> You know what I did? >> What? When we got to the restaurant, the. very first thing I did was go up to the. manager while everyone was being seated.

and said, "Listen, dude. >> My mom's going to try and pay or one of. these other chumps in my family is going. to try and pay.". >> I was like, "I don't want any of them. paying." Right. >> There's like 12 people. I picked the. place. I picked a nicer place. Yeah. >> It's like, I don't want to do that. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, so just here's my credit. card. Please make sure that the server. there's no battle. >> They didn't follow your orders. No, because my mom, she tried to jump me. later. on the side and didn't realize I had. already jumped her. >> So, it should have been done.

>> I know. But then we went over there, he. was like, "Listen, man. Your mom is over. here now. Like, she's the mom. We. generally side with the parents on this. stuff.". >> What What place was this? >> It was just a restaurant, right? >> I demand to know. I'm I'm. >> You think my move should have just. trumped all moves cuz it was No, I. agree. And that's what I basically said. >> And I was like, listen, man. I was like, there are factors at play here that I. don't want to talk about. I like just. please. >> And my mom got a little mad. And then I. was. >> That's I blame this manager.

>> I think you should expose them. Well, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. >> Oh, man. Should we take a break? >> I thought we were right now. >> No. Uh, all right. We'll be back right after. this. [Music].

All right, we're back, Chuck. >> Yes. >> And like we said, we showed science is. kind of like we're not quite sure about. the birth order effect. that hasn't kept. like a whole cottage like oh yeah field. of psychology from continuing since the. 80s basically non-stop. Like if you go. look up birth birth birth order effects. there's. >> it's very rare you're going to run into. anything that says like this is all BS. Most of it's like yeah this is true. Everybody knows it. Um there have been. some like prominent people in favor of.

or like like that say yes there is such. thing as birth effects. And there was. one guy in particular um who made a big. splash in 1996 with a book called Born. to Rebel. >> Yeah. Soloway. >> Yeah. Frank Soloway. Frank J. Soloway if. you want to be fancy about it. And he. got a MacArthur Genius Grant in 1984 to. kind of study this and write about it. And he did. He wrote a book called Born. to Rebel. It was about birth order. And. the whole premise of the book was he.

looked at scientific revolutions. throughout the ages. >> Pretty interesting. identified which. >> scientists were on which side of it, either in support of this revolutionary. thinking or opposed to it, meaning that. they were in favor of keeping the status. quo and then determined what birth order. they had. And he found after this study, which is really that's a it was a big. study. Yeah. That he did. It was a. pretty a lot of leg work and a lot of. research. um he determined that.

firstborns are much more likely to. support the status quo whereas second. borns or later borns he calls them are. um much more likely to support. revolutionary thinking. >> Yeah. And just one example as far as uh. he used Darwinism. He said laterorns. between 1859 and 1875. uh were 4.6 times more likely than. firstborns to uh support Darwinism. >> Yeah. this revolutionary thinking. Yeah.

So, yeah. And that was one of many. examples. I think there were um. >> 121. >> historical events with 6,500 individuals. either supporting or opposing them. So, it was a big big work for sure. >> Yeah. And one of his uh I mean, he he. put some reasoning behind it, too. He he. was like uh if you're a laterborn, you. might have a hard time competing with. your older, right, >> who might have a tighter bond with the. parents, maybe. And so that sort of. symbolically forces you as to be almost. an outsider within your own family. So.

you may be more prone to join up with an. outsider opinion, >> right? To go look outside of the family. union and all of the values and the. ideas that it holds to to make your own. mark in order to get attention or. support or whatever from your parents. Whereas if you're a firstborn, you just. got the the easiest thing to do is to. just fall in line with your parents and. hence support the status quo. It makes. sense, but um Born to Rebel was was torn. apart by some scientists. It's like this.

is just. >> pure pop psychology tripe. >> Um I think that's an unfair. characterization of it. Like the guy. worked for basically 20some years on. this stuff and and it was a very robust. study. One of the pitfalls that he. seemed to have run into though was he. was analyzing historical figures. Um, which is really sticky stuff. >> Yeah. >> Like like that's you you can't analyze. people even from afar, even if they're. contemporary, let alone they've been.

dead for a couple hundred years. So to. base it on that is kind of is kind of. difficult and tricky. But. >> I I I just want to say he worked really. hard on it. Uh, another part plucked from his. research I thought was pretty. interesting was the idea that part of. this um less rebellious nature of a. firstborn might be due to the. >> longstanding but now sort of antiquated. practice of uh primogenature which is. >> the firstborn gets the inheritance. So.

they're more likely just through. >> thousands of years of this more inclined. to like not ruffle the feathers of the. parents. >> Right. And then the the laterb borns who. are like I've got basically zero chance. of inheriting the family titles in. estate. I'll just go do my own thing. I. don't have to fall in line. That makes. sense as well. >> Uh and the other interesting thing with. that is um another factor was the. removal of a child from a family. He. found that a laterorn who was removed. from the family and reared by a relative.

>> will end up behaving like a typical. firstborn. Right. And again, I'm. assuming if that's under the age of like. five, >> but I wonder so I'm wondering if that. just is supported by other research or. if all of the parenting magazine. articles that mention that whole, you. know, the personality is tailored is. really just citing that work. >> Because that's one of the big problems. with pop psychology in general is it's. self-reinforcing. One person says one. thing and it gets picked up by a bunch. of people and they're all pointing to. the same thing. But since so many of.

them are pointing, there's so many of. them out there doing the pointing, right? It seems like it's a very robust. and like um widespread body of work when. really it was just one study that said. one thing that everybody's citing. >> Well, yeah. Like in his case, he likes. to site this Norwegian study. Uh it. found a difference of 2.3 IQ points. between first and secondborn children. >> Uh sample size of 241,000 subjects. >> That's big. >> It is big. But then, you know, Ed sort. of brings up a good point like, okay,

maybe. But like, is the 2.3 first of. all, IQ tests are problematic? >> They're bunk. >> for like a lot of reasons. >> because they're bunk. >> Possibly bunk. But even if they're not, is a 2.3 IQ point difference even. meaningful? >> Yeah. >> Enough to be like, well, look, >> two points. it. So, no, it's not. meaningful in that like, you know, that. doesn't that's not going to lead to any. like closed doors or open doors or. anything. It's just such a a narrow. difference.

>> But if that's like an average and it's. it is found across, >> you know, firstborns and later borns. >> like like in a very large population. like that, it is it does make you wonder. like what what would that come from? It. does raise more questions. Yeah. You. know what I mean? So, yeah, it's an. insignificant difference as far as like. actual intelligence goes, but it does. suggest that there's something weird. going on there that does have to do with. birth order. >> Well, I guess that brings us to this. really interesting. thing that I had never heard of before.

>> Oh, yeah. >> Had you heard of this? >> Fraternal birth order effect. Um, which. is basically. the idea, and a lot of studies have. backed this up. >> Yeah. metaanalysis of tons of studies. have backed this up. The idea is that if. you have multiple boys. in your family, >> Mhm. >> each successive boy that's born, and. this is if it's just boys, >> right, >> has a higher chance of being gay,

>> right? >> I didn't think and when I first saw that. I was like, that can't be real, >> right? >> And then I did a lot of more poking. around. I was like, wow, >> it is real. >> The statistics sort of bear it out. Yeah, if there's if there's a big um. disagreement about whether actual just. regular birth order effects exist, this. one is much more supported by the data. >> Yeah. >> This the fraternal birth order effect. And so much so that there was a a. sexologist, >> which if that were my field of study, I'd be like, "Call me sexologist Josh,

please." Um I can't find his name is Ray. something. He said, and I'm not sure. what he was basing this on, but he said. that um it there is a increase of 33%. in likelihood that you will be gay with. each additional older brother you have. >> Now, so that means if you are born into. a family and you're the youngest of four. brothers, >> I did this this math too. >> What does that mean? Because I know. these people like I have friends and. family. a 0% chance I guess that that.

you are going to be um hetero that you. that that you're 100% chance going to be. gay, right? >> Well, how many it could be 160% chance, >> right? It just keeps going, right? >> Yeah. I mean, that can't be right. >> Eventually, you become so gay, you pop. out the other side and you're straight. because you have like 10 brothers. Well, I did see that meta analysis of. multiple multiple studies indicated that. between 15 and 29% of gay males owe.

their sexual orientation to this effect. supposedly. >> Okay. So, so and we should say there are. some studies that have not found this. There was a big one that had it was like. a survey of British young men that that. surveyed like 11,000 of them or whatever. and did not find this. But so many. studies have found it. Yeah. that. science is like this this actually might. be a thing and we're not quite sure what. it is. And at first they explained it. that the the more boys there are the.

less social pressure there are for you. to be like hetero and um and responsible. for carrying on the family line. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Like after two three brothers who are. going to you know carry on the family. line, go crazy, go do what you want. and. that that was the idea behind why it. became likelier that you would be gay if. you had more older brothers. There's a. couple of things with that. It kind of. suggests that like um being gay or not. is a choice or being straight or not is.

a choice rather than a something. biological, right? >> Whatever that has kind of gone out the. window with another really surprising. finding that has to do with handedness. that really undermines that whole idea. >> Yeah. So this is so just mind-blowing. and interesting. So the the increase in. probability of a boy becoming gay is. only only if that boy is right-handed. >> Right-handed. >> Yep. So if you're left-handed among. left-handed men, there was no.

statistical difference and the incidence. of homosexuality even if you've got a. thousand brothers. And the weird thing. about that is that they found if you are. taking birth order out of the equation, if you are left-handed, there's a. slightly higher incidence of of um being. gay. >> just period. >> Yes. For for being left-handed. And. that's with um men and women apparently. Um, so the idea that that not only does. it not make you more likely to be gay in.

as far as fraternal birth order is. concerned, it actually negates the. effects of fraternal birth order. >> It negates it. >> It it shows that that that social. pressure from brothers doesn't have. anything to do with it. >> Right? >> Because a right-handed or a left-handed. kid is not going to be under any more or. less social pressure from older brothers. to be straight, >> right? >> Um, that makes zero sense whatsoever. And that would also suggest since it's. handedness that it has something to do. with genetics too. >> If you're ambidextrous, are you. bisexual? >> I guess so.

>> Where's that study? >> That makes sense. >> So, I did a little more digging in this, but I don't understand it at all. But. more recently, as in just a couple of. years ago, they think they found an. actual. um. physiological biological explanation for. that. Did you Did you understand that? >> Uhhuh. I don't know if they found it or. if somebody made it up and everybody's. like, "All right, I'll do for now.". >> I read a bunch of papers that said that, you know, they think this may be it. >> Okay. >> But I I didn't get it.

>> So, what they what they think is that. when a um mom when a mom carries a boy. >> Mhm. Her body has a reaction to the male. male proteins, the stuff that makes him. a male, >> creates a an allergic reaction of sorts. in the mom, and the mom produces. antibodies. >> The first time the mom's body is totally. caught off guard, has basically no. effects whatsoever on the the boy's. development as a boy. As more and more.

boys are born and gestate in that same. poor mom, >> um the the antibodies get better and. better at recognizing these proteins and. can actually get to the point where they. affect the expression of these proteins. And so what makes the boy straight. from the basis of these proteins is. actually affected and they develop. differently starting in the womb because. the mom has developed antibodies to. basically maleness which is the most.

mind-boggling amazing idea I've ever. heard. >> That summary was so much better than the. scientific paper summaries that I read. today. >> Thank you, Chuck. >> Good job. >> Thank you. >> You should do that. >> Thank you. I do for a living. I just. did. >> Well, well, it's a good point. Uh, I. thought this was interesting, too. I. mean, we've kind of gone over most of. these birth order theories, I think, in. general, but this one I don't think we. super touched on, >> and I think it's really interesting. The. confluence theory. So, this is sort of. like resource delution of parents that.

we were talking about. >> Yeah. >> Like only so much emotional. >> uh support or financial support to go. around. >> But this takes it down to the sibling. level. And it's sort of basically like. if you were first born uh you are then. have a degraded emotional environment. and intellectual environment once you. get a younger. >> Yeah. >> So it's like playing tennis against. better or worse competition. If you're. the better tennis player, you're not. going to play as good against a lesser.

tennis player. >> And they're saying that that kind of. happens with firstborns because they. have to spend time with this. >> dumb kid, this dumb baby. But the dumb. baby gets a leg up. >> Exactly. That's when you play tennis. against someone better than you. Right. >> Eventually, that's called the tutor. effect. They surpass that first born. >> The student becomes the master. >> That's right. Exactly. >> And your skin turns to alabaster. >> Really interesting. >> Says Sting. >> Is that Sting? Mhm. >> Well, the police. >> Oh, okay. Oh, sure.

I thought you were like a dream of the. blue turtle sting. >> No, I'm more of a Nothing Like the Sun. >> Yes. synchronicity. >> No, that's good, too. >> I'm still mad at them for that reunion. tour. >> Oh, yeah. They really phoned it in, you. said, right? >> Just phoned it in. >> Hey, I saw for some So, I just thought. of the police and then Steuart Copelan, which made me think of Les Clayool. Remember he was in that band with Les. Clayool and Trey Anastasio. >> Yeah, it's called Kill Me. >> No, that's that's three talented.

individuals. But then that made me think. of Les Clayool who was in a documentary. I just saw on The Residents. >> Have you seen it? >> No. The Residents were the the mystery. band, right? With that the big. >> ping pong heads. >> Eyeballs. >> Eyeballs. Right. >> Still are a mystery band. Still going. Really? >> Yeah. They're good. Um but it it's good. It's like it's it's an intellectual kind. of like examination of of their history. and everything. But it's really. interesting. But Les Clayool's in it. >> Do you think when Les Clayool uh fish. guy what's his name? Trey Anastasio.

>> Trey Anastasio. >> and Steuart Copeland. >> And Steuart Copen. You think when they. got together to form that band, >> all they did was just sort of work out. whose solo is next? >> Probably. >> It's like I want to do the bass solo. first and then we can go right into the. guitar solo and then the drum solo and. then the song's over. >> Hopefully the birth order of the three. worked out so that it all they were. like, "Yes, this all makes sense to me.". >> Oh man, there's nothing better than old. videos of Stuart Copeland pitching fits. >> Oh, did he? I always heard it was Sting. that was the jerk to Steuart Copeland.

Was Steuart Copeland the jerk? >> Well, Steuart Copelan was a hotthead and. Sting was a could poke his buttons. >> Oh, >> yeah. It's pretty fun. There's. >> Steuart Copeland. No, don't feel bad for. Steuart Copeland, >> man. He might be I think he might be the. best drummer ever lived. Everybody says. Neil Per. I don't know, man. Steuart. Copelan was pretty good. >> Oh, yeah. And like crazy. Uh like um. doing his own thing. >> And he's from Mon. >> what? >> Yeah. >> Mon, Georgia. >> Mon, Georgia. Wow, I didn't know that.

>> This concludes this episode of Stuff You. Should Know. If you want to know more. about Birth Order, go talk to your. family. We don't care. Since I said last. time for listener mail, >> did you watch the Mly Crew movie yet on. Netflix? >> No. No. I didn't know it was out. >> Yeah, it's out. >> Okay. Is it good? >> Uh, no. >> Is it based on that book you read? >> It's not good. It But it's great. You. know what I mean? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. It's based on the book. >> Okay. >> But it's so I mean, it feels like one of. those VH1. Are you literally making a. note? >> I can't wait to see it. >> It's sort of like one of those VH1 movie.

uh music movies. >> Okay. >> Like the Jackson's one. It's it's it's. good. >> Okay, I'll check it out. >> All right. >> Who plays Vince Neil? >> Um they're all, you know, the only one. of the not the only thing. There's a lot. of distracting parts, but the guy who. plays Vince Neil in his hair looks a lot. like G. Looks a lot like Dana Carvy is Gar. >> So, it's kind of hard to fully go there. Uh, the guy who played Tommy Lee is. pretty good.

>> Was it Christian Navaro? >> No. Did he want? He's He can't play. Tommy Lee. >> He could. Tommy Lee's like 6'5. >> That kid can play anybody. >> Well, no. I agree. >> All right. It's time for listener mail. I said Chuck. >> No bar is more a Mick Mars guy. >> Okay. >> All right. Here we go. >> Is that from Is that Dawan? >> No. Mick Mars is Mly Crew. >> Who is that? >> He's a guitar player. >> Oh, the old creep. >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. I know who you're. talking about. I guess I never knew his. name. And by creep, he wasn't a creep. He was creepy. >> Sure, >> that's what I mean. >> Still is.

>> All right, here we go. This is uh from. Sam. I'm just going to call this. heartfelt. It's always nice to hear. this. >> Yeah. >> Hey guys, probably could have sent this. a million times, but tonight I really. felt the need to. You were with me when. when I transitioned from high school to. college. You were there the night my dad. died 2 years ago, and now you're here as. I'm in the process of dealing with my. girlfriend dumping me after 3 years. You're always there, guys. I'm sure you. hear this all the time, but I want to. tell you that uh some tough days on. tough days, you really help keep me. sane. Plain and simple.

>> You help keep me sane. >> Plain and simple. >> Plain and simple. >> Not that we keep them plain and simple. >> I read that wrong. >> That's like eats and leaves. >> That's right. Uh I have depression and. anxiety and the podcast is a huge help. on nights like this when nothing seems. to help or is comforting. I can tell if. things get really bad if even the. podcast doesn't help. Uh you guys have. also been like role models for me. O so. uh. um this is all just to say thank you so.

much guys. Who knows how much darker. some spots of my life would have been. without you. Could say much more but I. think I gotten the message across. That. is from Sam and he says PS uh I am a. hehem and I spanked this email on the. bottom. >> Oh good. That's how it got here. Right. >> Nice work. Um, if you want to get in. touch with us like Sam did, thank you. very much, Sam, by the way. That was. very sweet of you to tell us all that. Hope you're pulling through. >> Yeah, hang in there, man. >> Um, you can get in touch with us by. going to stuffyou know.com and clicking.

on our social links. And you can also, uh, send us an email like Sam did. Don't. forget to spank it on the bottom to. stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].