Selects: How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hi everybody Chuck here hope you're. having a great day hope you're having a. great weekend I'm thinking about you. each one of you individually I'm. thinking about you I know where you live. I'm standing right behind you actually. I'm just kidding but I hope you're doing. well this one goes back to July 5th uh. 2018 uh it's a good one I think I picked. this one because I had just recently. seen the movie on the Stanford Prison. Experiment the movie is okay it's not. great it's not bad it's fine uh the.

podcast episode was pretty good from. what I remember though but you should do. both if you've seen the movie listen to. the show if you listen the show then. give the movie a shot it's got Billy. crudup he's always awesome and it's. called how the Stanford Prison. Experiment worked where friend becomes. fo fo becomes friend what'll happen in. the end listen in to find. out welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart.

[Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh Clark and this is Charles W Chuck. Bryant Jerry's over there so why don't. you pull up a chair kick back and tell. us about your problems cuz this is. psychology. stuff we should just call this episode. the Stanford. Prison Experiment AKA perhaps the the.

hacki experiment of all time and it's. really not an experiment anyway no but. it's the most famous psychology. experiment ever yeah I got kind of. ticked off while I was researching this. yeah you should man because I used to. think it was cool like oh man what a. cool experiment yeah everybody's evil. it's core it's core yeah then I. researched it and I was like this is a. bunch of BS all of it this is one of the. worst executed experiments I've ever. heard of that is so funny because I. while I was researching this I was like. I'm going to have to keep it together.

maybe at the end I can really go off or. whatever let's go off at the beginning. that's great man yeah I watched the the. movie today too the 2015 one yeah how. was it how was Billy crud up because I. loved him in Almost Famous uh well I'm a. fan he's he was good um but like I don't. know the movie A was pretty. sensationalized as far as the violence. like they showed a lot of Straight Up. physical violence in the movie which. supposedly didn't occur right um like.

beating them with billy clubs and hog. tying them and like like real violence. Hollywood actually these days I should. say Atlanta yeah uh yollywood is what. they call it oh there you go perfect. that's that's perfect that sounds like a. Norman Reedus creation yeah it might. have been uh shout out to Norman Reus. and then uh what was I saying oh um it I. don't feel like it came down.

hard enough on on this Yahoo what was. the guy's name zimbardo yeah zimbardo. for just crafting a really poor doing a. very poor job at crafting a supposedly. scientific experiment no he was like the. driving force behind that movie getting. made apparently he'd been trying to get. a movie made in America he seems to be a. pretty Shameless self-promoter decades. yes yeah it's not a good quality in a. social psychologist no so we're going to. see I guess we let the cat out the bag.

but we we shall see that. um the Stanford Prison Experiment one of. the most famous experiments in the anals. of. psychology it's not an experiment at all. no it its findings are wide open to. interpretation yeah and it was conducted. by a showman basically yeah I mean you. know it's a red flag when you don't. publish your findings in a medical. journal you publish them in New York was.

it New York Magazine New York Times. magazine the hodgman's rag well great. rag but that's not the place to go. publish scientific findings no peer. reviewed journals are yeah and they they. circumvented that yeah but for very good. reasons all right so let's let's talk. about the outline so let's go back to. the beginning right yeah back to the. year of my birth 1971 wow and. Stanford at Stanford University sure. which is what pal Alto yeah go uh.

fighting Seas what is their they have. like a big old Sequoia on their logo I. think it's like a and then they have a a. sequoia with its fists up or is that a. leprechaun oh that's Notre Dame I'm. thinking. of I I do feel like it has something to. do with trees Chuck's looking it up. everybody so let me stall it is a tree. the Stanford tree well I don't know what. the mascot is but there's definitely a. tree Associated as no I looked it up the. Stanford tree okay cool and the first.

question is why is it a tree uhhuh well. what's the answer well I mean I'm sure. it's just because of where it is in. California but that doesn't answer the. real question which is why would you. have a tree right Phillips and BTO. sitting there like quit stalling get to. the get to the heckling he's still. around yeah he is so um all right we're. at Stanford it's 1971 yeah we're. actually in the basement of uh one of. the buildings at Stan Stanford. University I think like Campbell hall or. something like that in I think August of.

1971 there were um. 24 young men almost all of them one I. think one of them was. Asian-American and um they are doing. something pretty bizarre in this. basement in August of. 1971 they've been divided into two. groups guards and prisoners supposedly. average kids right and they are um. acting out this basically roleplaying.

game of guards versus prisoners for 15. bucks a day in a simulated prison in the. basement of this this Hall at Stanford. University yeah which would be about $93. today uh funded by the US Office of. Naval Research is that right so it' be. 93 bucks a day M and it was originally. going to be two weeks so I'm sure some. of these guys were like heck yeah yeah I. mean I kind of forgot what it was like. to be a college student that that'd be. uh you know what between 12 and 1400.

Bucks starting off your summer it'd be. uh about 13 $1 13002 if my quick math is. correct good scratch yeah for for a 21y. old yeah two weeks on summer break. that's right so uh you were divided into. two lots like you said um they asked. people um supposedly what you wanted to. be unless this was purely a movie. creation and I did try and look up and. try and find out the differences yeah um. but they supposedly asked them and most.

everyone said or in fact everyone said. prisoner uh and one of the reactions. from who ended up being the bad guard uh. the guy said uh they asked him why and. he's like cuz nobody likes guards right. he's like why would anyone want to be a. guard yeah cuz they thought we'll just. be prisoners cuz they just will lay. around and smoke cigarettes right so. we'll we'll and we'll kind of unpack. what that suggests later on sure okay so. you've got these these guys and they're. down here for this experiment and so.

coming at it from the way this is the. popular interpretation of what happened. at the Stanford Prison Experiment okay. yes you've got you've got 12 guards and. 12 Prisoners the prisoners had been. arrested by the way by the Real Palo. Alto Police yeah they weren't told when. but like the real cops came by arrested. each one of them for you know a variety. of crimes booked them at the Palo Alto. police station and then transported them. to the jail the fake jail in uh at.

Stanford yeah they call it the Stanford. County jail and they did a legit job. they put up signs they had these rooms. decked out like jail cells they had a a. hole um they did a really believable job. of making this seem like uh a prison. environment at least right so um you've. got these these prisoners who've been. delivered you've got these guards who. are waiting there for him and um as as. far as has ever said these these guards.

were told you have to protect the prison. and everything else is up to you the. Only Rule is there's no physical. punishment we're just here to observe. yeah like here's your uniforms here's. your sunglasses yeah and then the. prisoners were booked in with wearing. smoks yeah no shoes no underwear yeah. naked under the smoks chained at the. ankles and then they wore like um those. stocking cap do rags they had a panty on. their head to.

simulate to simulate they're having. their head shaved right uh and you know. this is this the early 70s so most of. them had these big afro and long hair. and stuff under these uh panties right. so um this is like At first everything's. pretty normal the guards don't quite. know what to do they're a little timid M. the prisoners apparently relished this. immediately and. started like finding where the guard's.

boundaries were and they started to band. together and there was actually I think. on day two the the the turnover from day. one to two there was a prisoner. Riot yeah I mean they um like you said. they were sort of laughing at first and. I think we didn't mention too and this. is will end up being very very. problematic and the first sign that he. didn't do a good job zardo actually. acted as the superintendent of the. prison involved him himself in his own.

experiment and had one of he had some uh. graduate assistants that were assisting. in the program they acted as a parole. board and uh one of them was the warden. that was yeah a a undergrad actually oh. they undergrad assistant well the the. warden jaffy is last name was jaffy he. was an undergrad at the time and. actually he had come up with the. experiment on his own oh he was the guy. huh uhhuh and then um zimbardo was like. this is a really good idea let's do this. for real imagine the Press right so yeah. like you said it it escalated pretty.

quickly after kind of laughing at first. these guards got into their roles to say. the least and um really kind of started. being jerks in quick order and after the. prisoners were like hey this is kind of. funny like you're being you're not being. very cool yeah and they were you know. kind of smacked down and and you know. made to do things like push-ups and. jumping jacks and uh they would withhold. food and eventually they would like take. their beds away from them and stuff like.

it just got worse and worse and there. was I think like you said on day two a. an uprising they got together threw the. cots off their beds and threw the bed. frames against the door and wouldn't let. them in right so there was a prisoner. Riot yeah that's pretty significant. right um and what's equally significant. is that the guards by the second day. started to show signs of like real. cruelty toward the prisoners they. started treating them very poorly um.

they started engaging in basically acts. of torture like waking them up randomly. in the middle of the night making them. get up uh like you said push-ups which. is interpreted as um physical punishment. because again you couldn't you couldn't. hit them with the rubber hose you. couldn't hit them with the Baton you. couldn't punch them but if you make. somebody do a bunch of push-ups that's. physical punishment too yeah and it was. within the bounds apparently yeah they. were referred to only by their prison. numbers they would never say their names. they were made to memorize everyone.

else's Prison number and like they would. line them up and tell them to repeat. their numbers for like an hour if they. didn't do it fast enough and then in. reverse order uh they would get. punishment they would do the kind of the. classic moves of holding one responsible. for the punishment of others yeah that's. a that's a big one like if you didn't. make your bed good enough then no one. could go to sleep stuff like that the. guards also innovated um the carrots. here or there too they actually made one. cell like a good cell like they put a. bed in it with like bedding um if you.

were in that cell you were eligible for. like good meals like better than what. the other prisoners had and there were. room for three inmates in there at a. time and so it instilled this sense of. competition and and um skull duggery I. guess backstabber among the. prisoners to Curry favor with the guards. like by informing on the other ones so. that you could get a chance to be in. like the nice cell yeah and I think even. before that like when they went to do.

the when they went to Stage the uprising. I don't think there were three rooms of. three and I think six of them two of the. rooms participated and one of the rooms. did not and uh because not all the guys. uh you know not all the prisoners like. rebelled as much some of them just kind. of went along with it interestingly some. of the guards did not descend into. cruelty right they actually some of them. did like favors went out of their way to. be nice to the prisoners but in um the. grabster who wrote this article points.

out very significantly they didn't stand. up to the cruel guards or officially. object to their their behavior right. they went along with it but then they. thought they had to in their own right. in their own way they they did what they. could to retain their Humanity so there. are two huge points and one of them. there's one among the guards and one. among the prisoners and the one among. the prisoners comes 36 hours after the. beginning of the um of the experiment. and this prisoner his name it would.

later be revealed was Douglas corpy um. he had an emotional breakdown a nervous. breakdown 36 hours after this this this. experiment starts one of the prisoners. it becomes so emotionally involved in. this simulated prison at this cruelty. the simulated supposedly cruelty of the. guards that he had a nervous breakdown. well and had to be had to be removed. from the uh the experiment and this is.

like this is zardo's this is the. official line for the Stanford Prison. Experiment play right and has been for. decades yeah he also said that uh one of. them broke out in a psychosomatic rash. there was um all manner of uh of various. levels of psychological breakdowns. happening on the other side the the big. star among the guards was a guy named. John Wayne who you referenced earlier. yeah his name was uh Dave echelman MH. and he was the one who he was the ring.

leader he's the one that came out as the. most brutal guard of them all and all. the other guards kind of fell on line. behind him and took their cues from him. so this whole thing's going on this is. crazy town this place in in six days six. days this thing descends into chaos. supposed to be two weeks yes there was. there was um rumors that there was going. to be a breakout and so they moved the. experiment um there were uh that that. guy uh Douglas corpy had a nervous. breakdown ended up getting put into the.

hole um this broom closet for uh I think. overnight and was finally released. because the the um researchers that the. actually stepped in and said you should. should probably let them out um it was. it was just utter chaos and then. eventually um Philip zimbardo's. girlfriend at the time a woman named. Christine ma mlock yeah his wife to be. um oh she married him huh yeah still. married um so she came and just dropped.

in to see how things were going and was. so outraged at what she saw that she was. like you you so far beyond the line you. have to stop this now like this is this. is descended into chaos you can't do. this these people are treating these. these prisoners horribly like how are. you letting this go on and he went okay. fine and so the next day he cancelled. the experiment again after 6 days and it. was scheduled to go on for 2 weeks and. so he comes out tells the world in this.

New York Times magazine guys if I took. you if I took you Josh and I took You. Chuck and put you as guard and prisoner. in even a simulated prison and put a. smock on Josh and took his underwear off. and uh put a stocking on his head and. gave Chuck a baton and some glasses. chuck would beat Josh up and Josh would. probably have his Spirit broken and have. a nervous break down it's in everybody.

evil is in everybody crumbling at the. first sign of adversity is in everybody. we're all just pathetic weaklings. Stanford Prison Experiment and he ran. off and said I'm famous all right that's. a great setup mhm so we'll take a break. here and come back and talk a little bit. about the more about the experiment and. the realities of it right after this. [Music].

all right so you've got John Wayne in. there uh I don't think we mentioned that. he took on the Persona of the uh prison. boss and Cool Hand Luke yeah he he did a. fake southern accent and everything and. Dove right into this role um if you talk. to Dave echelman today he will say he's.

very much on record of saying I'm not. some jerk uh and I didn't get off on. being sadistic he said I wanted to do. what they paid me $15 a day to do which. was to be a a prison guard and to treat. these guys poorly right and so I C you. know he said I did some drama in high. school and I literally acted this part. as well as I could that was a I felt was. expected and and wanted from me right. and I put on this fake southern accent. and if you like ask friends and family.

today they would laugh at this cuz I'm. really not this guy at all right cuz he. really comes off as as a bit of a. villain in this movie for sure well he. perpetrated real cruelty on other people. and we'll get to that later he said he. feels bad about it too and he should um. because the other people actually did. suffer under this guy's leadership as. the the ring leader of the mean guards. right like they wore pink on Wednesday. it was terrible everywhere right so um.

he really should feel bad and apparently. he does I saw that all over the place. too that he feels bad for it but the. point is is that he has said like this. didn't happen. organically like I I I was I was I felt. encouraged to to play this role right. that's a big deal because the findings. of the Stanford Prison Experiment say if. you take some people and say you're a. guard give and you will turn evil they. will turn evil within a day a day they.

said about this guy and this guy's like. no I was just like you said doing my job. what they were paying me 15 bucks a day. for yeah let's put that one to the side. all right put a pin in that let's go. visit with Douglas corpy who was the. prisoner who in 36 short hours of this. simulated Prison Experiment lost his. marbles and had a nervous breakdown and. had to go home right one of the other. two pillars of the findings that people. are either evil or easily crumble in the.

face of adversity from the Stanford. Prison Experiment and again this is how. this thing's been taught for like 50. years okay yeah so corpy comes out and. says I was faking that and I put on a. big act so I could get out of there. because it sucked and I didn't want to. be there anymore right so I fake like I. was and he he like one of his quotes was. uh I don't have it here but he basically. said like any trained clinician would. have been able to see right through this. like when I hear the tapes years later.

it's like I'm not an actor I wasn't like. apparently the John Wayne guy at least. had been in like high school plays and. college too I think yeah and he was like. I I was not an actor and it was so clear. to me looking back at these tapes that I. was faking it faking a nervous breakdown. yeah faking a nervous breakdown to get. out of there right so the reason why he. said later that he did fake this nervous. breakdown is because he took the job. because he thought he'd just be laying. around like you said smoking cigarettes. being a prisoner yeah and he would get. to study for the gr he was about to in.

grad school I didn't see that well they. said no you can't have your books no. they didn't give him anything and this. guy was like whoa whoa whoa wait a. minute this is day one he's like whoa. whoa whoa like I need those books I'm. taking the gr basically leaving here. after two weeks and going to take the. test like I've got to spend this two. weeks studying they're like you can't. have your books so he quickly saw that. the only way out was to fake this. nervous breakdown and Billy kud up went. in there and said why is everyone saying. whoa whoa who W only I can say wo whoo.

whoo whoo whoa. whoo uh yeah so we've kind of poo pooed. the two major findings from the study. already so that's that's a huge deal. right because again the idea is that if. you put people any random people. remember these are just average like. middle middle class white kids um which. is another problem right if you put if. you put any well you know 1971 that. means everybody right that's the whole. world right if you put anybody in the. world in this situation they're going to. either turn evil or lose their marbles.

so um those are the two findings that's. what everybody took it as at first it. later came out no this guy was acting. this guy was faking so what else do we. have then well we have this idea that. zimbardo insinuated himself as part of. the experiment and that actually created. the findings from the Stanford Prison. Experiment so should we put a pen in. that you want to talk about that now no. no I want to go I want to go where you.

want to go all right let's put a pin in. that then and talk about a little bit. more about what went on that week um. they had everything from uh visitation. like you could write a letter to your. family or girlfriend or whoever you want. to come visit you uh to ask for. visitation rights and the family came in. and they did they came in and visited. for an hour and uh there were in some. cases parents were like I don't know. about this this is like this is seems. like a really weird thing right and. zardo would be like oh no it's totally.

fine like you know they I'm a. psychologist yeah like they want to be. here like ask them and the the kids you. know they did say that they wanted to. stay. okay which is which is important okay so. what what else is important is like like. no one in the visiting hour I don't. think we like get me out of here okay. they're all like no this is all part of. the part of the ACT okay essentially all. right um they had parole uh hearings and. the course of a week somehow they said.

that if they uh they could be released. if they would forfeit the money uh and. this is after I don't know how many of. the six days but um they could not get. paid if and be paroled if they went in. front of the parole board they went in. front of the parole board some of them. did and most of the prisoners said that. they would give up their money in fact. and the parole members like uh like I. said they were The Graduate assistants. they even had one um former prisoner uh. this guy that like was a 15y year.

Quinton yeah inmate 15 or 17 year inmate. on the board that I guess them uh zardo. I want to call him Zamboni so he. actually was a friend of jaffy the guy. who originally actually conceived this. experiment as an undergrad so he brought. him in on it right so he was on the. parole board and he was kind of one of. the ones um at least in the film version. that was kind of saying like no this is. like how it is like you should keep it. going right but I don't know how much of. that was dramatized. I I don't either that's a that's a.

that's a one of the problems with this. is you know so much of the documentation. has been not released over the years and. when it does get released it contradicts. the official line and um it's very tough. to separate truth from fiction. especially when you introduce a. Hollywood movie into the whole thing. just to just to drive those Nails in the. coffin too of reality and fact there's. been a lot of uh in the year since a lot. of complaints that a lot of these you. know kids were screaming I want to go. home I want to home and for his part.

zimbardo said in the contract it says I. want to exit the experiment is the. official line to say and they could have. gone home and he was like but you hear. no one ever said I want to exit the. experiment they would say I want my. mommy or I'm going crazy or my God. please stop this please stop this but. they never said those exact words the. safe phrase the say yeah the safe phrase. but it turns out that's bunk too right. yeah it turns out that if you look at. the contract that they had that he's. referencing that that say the rules and.

everything in the agreement there's no. safe word to be mentioned certainly. doesn't say if you say I want to quit. the experiment you get released from the. experiment so he's just flat out lying. about that then that's from what I. understand yes and what article was this. that you sent there's a really good. takedown um in medium called the um the. uh lifespan of a lie yeah it's a good. one um and it's based on that title's. based on a I think a a documentary by a.

documentary or book by a yeah a French. filmmaker um which who titled his. version the birth of a lie and it's. basically about how the Stanford Prison. Experiment was just basically it was. bunk from the get-go which we'll kind of. pick that apart in a little bit and that. just fascinatingly has been perpetuated. over again basically 50 years it just. entered the the the cultural zeitgeist. just stayed like an.

infection uh all right some other things. that happened to make it realistic they. brought in um a lawyer when parents. asked for one and played along like it. was real they brought in a chaplain who. came in to speak to prisoners uh and he. played along with it too yeah uh they. basically did everything that you would. think would happen in a real prison um. on on a slightly scale down level right. but the upshot of all of this is. zimbardo's saying like do you see what's.

going on here everybody yeah like I just. put some guys in like nine guys in at a. time or 12 guys as guards 12 guys as. prisoners and their parents came for. visiting hours a lawyer came that's the. that's how real the simulated prison. became in people's minds just imagine. what a real prison's like right so um. and he was saying they could have left. it any time if they just said the safe. word and no one ever said the safe word. there. some evidence that these people were.

basically kept there against their will. um especially after Douglas corpy. basically faked his emotional breakdown. and then was thrown into a broom closet. in in retaliation for it yeah um that he. should have very very clearly should. have been left or allowed to leave and. to even be led to think that you. couldn't leave which is apparently the. idea that spread throughout the. prisoners um that would be like keeping.

someone against their will yeah and he. did leave but was supposed to agreed to. come back supposedly MH uh to like play. a different role as a prisoner who like. maybe escaped and came back I think okay. but didn't come back right and um I. think five people were released early. before the the whole experiment was. called off all prisoners no guards left. the experiment which is telling yeah. well and they were working in shifts. though which is important okay that is a. big one too um but but if you consider.

that no one asked to be a guard they all. asked to be prisoners but then none of. the guards left the experiment right. that's to me that's interesting on its. face right there's something to that but. um there the the whole. thing just kind of falling apart after. zimbardo's girlfriend um at the time. came. um the idea that up to this point these. people had engaged in this fantasy. and thought that they couldn't leave. when they really could that's.

controversial in and of itself sure. because again there's evidence that they. were led to believe they they couldn't. leave and that's different that changes. things entirely yeah so you want to take. another break and then pick this part. some. more yeah let's do it kind of fun. [Music].

all right the final takeown I'm I'm. waiting for I'm waiting for Philips Zar. to release a book about like our. Jackhammer. episode that's fine I would read it uh. all right so where are we here basically. we're at the point where uh he has he. has ended the experiment and now we're. dealing with the Fallout since 1971 and.

how this should be viewed one of the big. things that came out of that French book. The Birth of a lie is the um the. filmmaker Unearthed a. recording that was I don't know where he. found it but they he found it and. released the transcript of it that. clearly has um if not zimbardo at least. jaffy definitely jaffy coaching the um. the guards yeah to be more brutal right.

be a tough guard just think of like how. the pigs do it and do it like that I. think is what the quote was right yeah. when the whole idea of this thing is to. try and prove that without any influence. yes this is what happens right so. there's a couple of things that happened. meth methodologically there's a lot of. things that happened the moment they. started coaching those guards number one. they took any organic out of their. behavior they were then doing what they. thought they were expecting to do like. John Wayne yeah for sure who just went.

over the top as what it was um and then. number two they made them Co. experimenters like the whole thing was. supposed to be guards and prisoners and. we're going to watch as test subjects or. participants and when you coach the the. guards you're they're. co-experience entirely on the on the. prisoners which you can say okay well. then those findings still worked well. that gets thrown out when you base the. whole thing on a guy who is faking right. right but but you you make the guards Co.

experimenters and you just completely. take out any objectivity from this. experiment that's problem one with the. methodology well and the fact we already. mentioned that one of one of the. researchers was a warden and z uh keep. on to call him Zambrano that's fine go. ahead zardo Zamboni himself was the. superintendent like the minute he. decided to do that like I looked up I. think he was like in his late 30s when. he did this how did he not like was he. that bad at doing his job how did he not.

know like wait a minute this will taint. the experiment do you want to talk about. why the people think that he was so yeah. okay so he was a uh he wasn't I think. still is a social activist for sure and. he had decided um and I can't really. disagree with him that prisons were. brutal places where brutality lived and. that they were inherently brutal and so. if you take somebody and put them into. this place you're doing a real. disservice to humanity by by throwing.

somebody in a brutal place that you know. is brutal so his aim was to get reform. to happen yes from the outset well I. mean I can't fault that but you can't. call it a scientific experiment either. no and it actually supposedly backfired. as well. because one interpretation of his. findings is. that it's all or nothing with prisons. prisons are inherently brutal uh or you. can't have them so either you have have. prisons and you have brutal prisons or.

you have no prisons and so faced with. that choice and with Rising crime rates. in the 70s um a lot of people doubled. down on getting tough and made prisons. even worse and built more prisons and. said TS we're not even going to try to. like reform you anymore we're just going. to send you to these brutal places that. are inherently brutal and there's. nothing we can do about it so it would. have it would have backfired in that. sense but in in in the idea that he was. doing something with the best interests. of his fellow people uh at heart again.

like you said it's it's tough to fault. him for that he just really really gave. social psychology a black eye yeah so. one of the other things he did wrong um. and this one I just can't figure out. either uh is he didn't have a control. group and one of his um this guy wasn't. in the experiment but one of his. colleagues uh came by one day and was. like you know what what's your control. what's your independent variable yeah. and he was like what yeah he's like I.

don't have one so if you if you run a an. experiment of any sort um grabster uses. a great analogy where if you're trying. to figure out what the effects of. radiation are on tomatoes you pick a. bunch of tomatoes you weigh them you. check them for color um you make sure. that they're identical to another set of. tomatoes so you have two sets of. basically identical tomatoes one you. irradiate one you do not and after a set. amount of time you go back and see what. the differences are and then you can say.

probably that when you radiate Tomatoes. these are the effects and the effects. are the differences between the two same. thing with the prison experiment right. what would you have here two different. uh cell blocks and one that literally. isn't coached and completely left alone. that's what I would have done for sure. and then one where you're saying hey be. brutal and yeah we'll see if everyone. falls into these roles exactly that that. would have been great and actually some. researchers in 2001 oh yeah they did. they did exactly that they basically did. ran the experiment with just that.

control group you suggested um it was. called the BBC prison study yeah Haslam. and rker yeah and basically they did the. same thing they they they did not do any. coaching they didn't do any intervention. they did the the thing exactly like. you're supposed to or like zimbardo. should have from the outset and um they. found that again they made the control. group to the original Stanford Prison. Experiment they found that the exact. opposite happened the the prisoners. stayed banded together the guards were.

totally in disarray um and disorganized. the brutality never emerged um and there. wasn't any violence from what I. understand and this is where it gets. really scummy if you ask me uh zimbardo. found out about this and supposedly hlan. rker said they discovered he was. privately writing editors uh to keep. them from getting published and claiming. that they were fraudulent yeah in the. journal that they they released their. findings and he wrote in an appendage to.

their their article and said these are. the just don't even listen to these guys. I'm Philip zardo man so yeah I thought. that was pretty scummy too if he did. that um so you've got methodologically. there's even more problems too if in the. in the original newspaper advertisement. Chuck he said um Prison Experiment. Prison Experiment everybody sign up yeah. that was a problem in of itself they. shouldn't have known what they were. doing no exactly until they showed up.

right so you're going to get a big wide. swath of people and then once they find. out what the experiment is maybe they'll. say no thanks or whatever but this was. like attracting um a 2007 follow-up. study found. narcissistic hostile overly aggressive. authoritarian types like flies to honey. yeah or the opposite well that seems to. be the case in this case yeah which was. uh in fact one of them was liberal. activist right who kind of purposely. went in there because he thought maybe.

these findings could be used one day for. uh prison reform well I think also most. of the um what I got from jaffy coaching. the people to say like think about what. the pigs would do and then do do that. because we really got to show them how. how brutal prisons are um I think. everybody who showed up basically was. against prisons but whether you're. against prisons or for them you were. automatically tainted before before you. even showed up for the interview yeah.

because they wrote prison experiment in. the ad so from the outset there was bias. there was no control group it attracted. a biased cross-section of people zardo. participated he was a participant and. that actually Chuck led to the second. set of findings that zimbardo had. influenced this uh and become a. participant himself and here's the. current interpretation of all of it okay. this seems to be the current.

dour interpretation of the Stanford. Prison. Experiment not that people are. inherently cruel right and inherently. will just crumble in the face of. authority although that that might still. stand but that people will be are. capable of Cruelty if they're recruited. by an authority figure right the second. set and there's actually been three sets. of. interpretations the second set was that. zimbardo inserted himself and that it.

actually demonstrated what's called. situationist Theory yeah and that's. basically that external circumstances. are the drivers of human. behavior right so the point was not that. people are inherently cruel on an. individual level but the situation that. they're put in they will quickly find. those roles if there's a power structure. above them right that is that has. normalized this and is expecting them to. fulfill those roles and this really tied. in with you know this is 1971 people.

were still really trying to figure out. what the heck had just happened with the. Nazis it was only like 25 26 years. before yeah so this idea that this. banality of evil this made perfect sense. in that in that respect right there is a. bureaucracy that had normalized evil and. you were just following orders right. that was the second interpretation of. the Stanford Prison Experiment yeah well. and not just the Nazis but every like. the Vietnam War which was I mean this.

was 1971 right and like the mle massacre. and you know I was just following orders. like this TD in this has his fingers in. a lot of relevant politics of the day. right so um apparently it also tied in. really well to ateka and zimbardo must. have just couldn't believe his his good. fortune that there was a the bloodiest. prison riot in American history happened. like a couple weeks after he made the. news in the new yor York Times magazine. with this journal tic or this article.

that he wrote right yeah but that. actually played into it too because. apparently following orders a lot of. guards just fired blindly into the tear. gas smoke of this prison riot and killed. tons of of unarmed prisoners and. hostages so so zimbar was like okay. that's fine however we're going to. interpret this I'm cool with that the. third one I'm not quite sure that he. would be cool with the current one which. is bad science uh I think so what I saw.

is that a lot of social psychologists. said we've known this is bad science all. along but the findings were really. interesting and worthwhile so we didn't. throw the baby out with the bath water. the third one is that that zimbardo. inserted himself and what this what this. this study really showed was that people. will engage an acts of Cruelty if there. is a a figure of authority recruiting. them to what they think is is a. righteous cause and in this case it was.

zimbardo making the guards. co-performed the world what happens when. you put normal people in a prison. situation yeah which is what uh the John. Wayne guy very much has said all his. life since then is that this is what. they I thought they wanted was for me to. be a bad guard right so we could prove. uh ultimately that prisons need reform. and that that is why he's still.

complicit cuz he's still engaged in. these acts of genuine cruelty against. the the prisoners in the study and. that's why he should still feel bad and. still does feel bad but he did it. because he was recruited in the name of. this righteous cause by somebody who was. in Authority so is this being taught. this way in classes now I don't I think. that they especially once it came out. that zimbardo and at the very least his. Warden a co- experimenter was was was. coaching them to do this and that the. organic cruelty is just totally out the.

window I I think they don't know what to. do with it right now they're trying to. figure out like how to get these. findings across or what to make of them. because one uh one of these quotes from. the article you sent uh the guy said I. don't think it's scientific fraud in the. typical sense it was never considered to. be scientific it's typically represented. in classrooms as a. demonstration uh not an experiment and. as a notorious case of ethical Mal. right so that's almost a fourth takeway.

is that it's an example of how to not do. a study correctly right which is. interesting oh yeah I mean. methodologically inserting yourself like. lying about the findings later on or. misinterpreting the results or using. spin it's yeah there's a lot here but it. was approved by the Stanford human. rights subjects Review Committee at the. time those were zardo's experiments who. he presented this to uh and there you. know he still says that it was ethical.

well it was at the time under the. guidelines it was ethical but then after. they changed the guidelines yeah you. couldn't do this today no or at least. not with like he did it so u i did you. remember the very brief psychology is. nut series I watched that I did one on. the Stanford Prison Experiment yeah I. watched that today did you what' you. think it was good thanks man cute little. background yeah I thought so too um and. let's see you got anything else. no I mean boy I thought we were pretty. scathing but we were this is like vaping.

level scathing this is way worse than. vaping I'm sure the vapors are like oh. they were really hard on that guy yeah. the movie uh you know the documentary is. probably a little more accurate but the. movie wasn't bad yeah I mean it's not. great yeah but it was okay it felt like. a movie the week gotcha it's an airplane. movie yeah watch it on your next fight. that's my recommendation thanks buddy uh. well if you want to know more about the. Stanford Prison Experiment um type those.

words in the search bar at. howstuffworks.com and it'll bring up. this grabster article and since I said. grab sir it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this beautiful. landscaping hey guys I spent the last. two years fixing up the yard uh in our. house uh in Point Pleasant Pennsylvania. oh that sounds like a pleasant Place. yeah it is uh my husband actually. introduced me your show a few years back. and thank God he did because I've. literally listened to you for hours and. hours while working in the yard it was a. huge undertaking I have a more flexible.

work schedule than he does so I. volunteered to absorb most of the. responsibility although he did a lot of. heavy lifting too I enjoyed the show so. much I stopped allowing myself to listen. it uh to it any other time you were only. allowed during yard work this made me. much more ready to get outside and get. into it uh you guys were with me while I. carried literally tons of redstone up. pill and buckets hauling rocks for a. fire ring Landing planted. uh pecky sand Andra Ferns and hostas and. the rockiest soil I've ever had to work.

with and just clearing away overgrowth. it sounds like Tanya Harding training. for the Olympics in that one that one. Montage uh which it turned out included. a fair amount of poison ivy during it I. learned about tiny adorable little. creature called the tardigrade uh the. business of head transplants the. hookworm her favorite episode oh W and. some haunting information I cannot UNH. here uh such as you provided in the bull. fighting and drowning episodes you're. always very entertaining full of. information. uh even when I think it's boring you. make it fun there were times you had me.

loling in my backyard uh alone and. covered in dirt and sweat like a crazy. person attached are some pictures of the. progress uh all from your climate. controlled studio uh that is from Sharon. Pinsky and. Sharon you did a great job that is one. beautiful yard you got going yeah for. sure it is lovely it is nice work we're. glad we could be there with you to help. you get up that hill yeah and down the. hill and then back up the hill and back. down the hill that's right and then back.

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