Selects: How the Escape from Alcatraz Worked | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hi friends it's me Josh and for this. week's select I've chosen our September. 2020 episode on the escape from Alcatraz. is our episode even better than the. movie could be it's a little more. accurate at least and even without Clint. Eastwood it's pretty thrilling. nonetheless and I hope you enjoy the. absolute living heck out of. it welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart Radio.

[Music]. hey and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh. there's Chuck Jerry's out there in The. Ether somewhere um like that one kid. being transmitted from the camera to the. TV in Willy Wonka wow I got that one. eight kinds of wrong yeah but anyway. this is stuff you should know which is. appropriate did I would get something. eight kinds of wrong right at the. beginning did you ever hear the story. from Jean Wilder about the move at the.

beginning of that movie where he walks. out with a cane uh where he did The. Spill the somersault yeah he sticks the. cane in the ground and does the. somersault no he said that that was his. idea mhm and this just shows the. Brilliance of Gene Wilder and he said he. did that because he knew from that. moment on no one would believe anything. that that character said oh yes I I have. heard that before great that is that is. brilliant that man was a brilliant man. and a wonderful human being I loved him. he's got one of his last interviews on.

Conan O'Brien was so great cuz Conan was. just gushing and sure Gene Wilder was. very I think kind of taken back by how. much he means to people very nice uh. have you ever seen oh no that wasn't the. question I had did you know did you know. that your question was did you. fart did you know that Conan O'Brien and. Dennis ly are. cousins I don't think I knew. that according to Conan O'Brien asking a.

question on Jeopardy that is his cousin. H did not know. that uh speaking of. Jeopardy uh we have a colleague named uh. Ken Jennings who is on Jeopardy yeah and. we have another colleague two colleagues. called Daniel and Jorge and they have a. um a podcast called Daniel and Jorge. explain the universe it's pretty cool. but they also Chuck I just saw have a. PBS Kids animated program coming out. September 7th called Elanor wonders Y.

and it looks adorable wow that sounds. like uh right at my daughter's alley. yeah so check it out everybody PBS Kids. September 7th Elanor wonders white and. congrats Daniel and Jorge do you have. any famous. cousins famous or inFAMOUS I think we. are the famous cousins that's that's how. sad our families are yeah feels pretty. great though I keep being like hey let's. have another family reunion this month.

speaking of Infamous cousins Chuck how. about those angam Brothers. huh yeah man this is uh I could have. thought I kind of thought we did this I. know we did we do one on Alcatraz and. maybe just briefly touched on it. absolutely because this is uh this movie. the 19 what was it. 79 Escape from Alcatraz movie with Clint. Ewood mhm was one of my favorite movies. as a kid it's a good movie I went I. watched it just the other night as part.

of this yeah it was an HBO special so I. must have been I didn't see it in when I. was eight I probably was like 10 or 11. and it was one of those movies I. probably watched over a dozen times when. I was 12 12 years old followed by croll. and Outland oh man those are great yeah. they always went together though didn't. they yeah in war games I mean those are. all HBO specials but this was a really. good movie and uh I'm a big big fan of. prison escape movies sure and I was.

thinking today when I was looking over. this stuff again that it's so weird that. like these guys were hardened criminals. mhm And yet when you're researching this. all you can think about is oh man I hope. they got out of there right and I hope. they lived the fat life in Brazil well. that really speaks to like who they are. what they became because of this Escape. which is put most simply they're folk. Heroes I guess so yeah that's definitely. a part of being a folk hero is that you. can trans send the kind of like.

judgments that Society typically levies. against people like criminals like if. you if you are so good at your craft or. so good at something to do with. criminality that um you transcend being. judged for your crimes that's you've. become a folk hero for sure it's like DB. Cooper yeah and I think it helps that uh. you know these guys were armed robbers. and thieves and I think uh Frank Morris. and we'll get into all these who these. dudes are but he was a drug trafficker.

but they they weren't rapists and. murderers I don't think it could. transcend that no they um they were. definitely nonviolent criminals from. everything that I've seen yeah they used. to toy gun in one of these robberies. yeah it's adorable well let's talk about. these guys like you were saying um we're. talking about a group of people who. escaped from alcatrez and as far as. anyone knows they are the only ones who. really may have escaped from Alcatraz. they vanished in. 1962 um last seen leaving their.

and were never heard from again and like. you said they were all hardened. criminals like lifelong career criminals. Frank Morris was 35 when he left. Alcatraz and he'd been a criminal since. he was 13 um he was in and out of. Institutions and like you said he wasn't. a violent criminal he wasn't a rapist or. a murderer or anything like that he was. he was he liked to to to sell the drugs. he had like a forehead tattooed or a. star to tattooed on his forehead for a.

while which he very sensibly had removed. later on um is that what that. means what that he was a drug trafficker. yeah is it no I think that means that he. did a few too many drugs one night oh he. really did have a star yeah I thought. that was some like prison thing for like. the teardrop uh tattoo means you do that. mean you killed somebody or something. that's what I've always heard but I. don't know it could just be urban legend. but yeah that's what I've always heard. he really did have a star yeah I think.

he got super wasted one got star. tattooed on his forehead there was a. tattoo artist far too handy that night. yeah uh yeah which I think the old. saying don't ever make friends with. tattoo artists yeah or at least Drinking. Buddies sure that's true but he was also. super smart too yeah and they point this. out in the movie um in a lot of the. movie I mean it's pretty close to the. real story they did a really good job. but they do make a big deal in the movie. about how smart he was uh I know IQ is.

sort of take it or leave it as far as uh. that being a real measurement of one's. intelligence but he supposedly had an IQ. of 130 and the uh the Bop which stands. for the was it Bureau of Prisons mhm I I. didn't know they had rankings but they. had rankings of uh in intellectual. intellectuality is that a. word uh yeah I think so it gets the. point across ergo it is yeah and I'm. curious what other rankings they have. but um you know best looking best.

abs but he was in the top 2% supposedly. in the American prison system as far as. his intellectual capabilities yeah so. you you hit on a point there I think we. need to at least at least bring up like. the the the the movie did follow the the. actual the truth of the matter fairly. closely in some cases in other cases it. veered wildly away like there was a. character based on Oney guy who was very.

much involved but they didn't even use. his name and they made him seem less. involved than he actually was um there's. a lot that the movie gets wrong but the. problem with covering this is that. there's so many gaps and holes that are. so easily in casually filled in that you. can't help but Wonder like wait was this. was this detail provided by somebody who. saw the movie and took the movie is fact. like where are we exactly and just how. pure the knowledge and standing is of.

this Escape so you have to just kind of. bear that in mind that it's a it's kind. of a blur in the annals of crime as far. as um factuality goes yeah but it's a. good story great story and most of this. is pretty true I think mhm so Frank. Morris was four years into a 14-year. stent and this was for a bank robbery. and he was transferred to the Rock in. 1960 The Rock I didn't know we were. using lingo in this episode it's. Alcatraz it's a prison island or an.

Island prison yeah and some might say. the island itself is a prison which. we'll get. to and then his buddies uh you mentioned. the angland brothers uh JW John William. and his younger brother Clarence uh were. 30 and 29 years old and they were from a. very big family of Migrant Farm Workers. in south Georgia they traveled all over. the country where wherever the work was. basically as a big family and they got. into stealing things people yeah and.

they were the ones who used the toy gun. later on they they were I think visiting. family in a small town called Columbia. Alabama which is in the southeast of the. state and they found out that this bank. had been around for a hundred years in. this town and had never been robbed so. they assumed we're going to change that. it'll be easy to knock over and. apparently it was pretty easy to knock. over and they had a a toy gun that they. used and they still managed to get away. with at least I think like 10 grand or. 20 grand something a pretty substantial.

amount of money and they were on the run. for a little while but but got caught. and the alabamans were not very happy. with it and they threw the book at these. brothers they got 25e sentences for. robbing a bank with a toy gun and that. actually was way better than the. sentence they initially faced which was. the potentially the death penalty that's. crazy yeah um so so they were they were. they were caught and busted and they had. a third brother named Alfred too who was. also involved but he was was never sent. to that to the rock as you put it I bet.

it was not I bet it was factually a lot. easier to rob banks back then yeah it. was way easier to be a criminal even. just a few decades ago yeah just in. general I think now it's like don't even. try no you got I mean if it's not the. cops and their cameras you got some dumb. neighbor with their cameras like. me right oh man I hate to get off topic. so quickly but and we should post this. on the Facebook page or something or. maybe I'll put on Instagram what I got.

attacked by a squirrel and it was. captured by my front of the house camera. oh yeah everyone wants to see that this. was great I just I was taking out some. Recycling and I heard some rustling and. I went around the corner and I was like. this squirrel was freaking out and then. he literally leapt if you freeze frame. it he leapt three feet in the air wow. and and hit my leg and ran up my leg a. little bit and then wow and I react. thusly that's awesome you know what. would be wonderful is to intercut. closeups of your face when you you got. that Charlie horse on Internet Roundup.

oh my God in with the squirrel attack. that' be amazing it's a good thing I. don't care about myself and looking dumb. why did you why did that squirrel attack. you what did you do to it I didn't do. anything it was freaking out and then I. turned and looked after I dropped the. recycling off and he and another. squirrel were going at in our oak tree. so I think he he was just he was all. riled up he might have been on yeah did. he have a star tattooed on his forehead. he did right on his little little tiny. furry forehead wow yes please do post. that okay so all right these guys are.

all in. Alcatraz and Alcatraz at the time was um. like I said it was sort of the rock. itself was the prison and that was the. idea was that even if you're even if you. manage to get out of the prison that. they eventually built which we'll talk. about then you still can't get out of. there because you got to swim over a. mile to the nearest body of land about. 1.3 miles that water is really cold the. currents are brutal yeah the winds are.

really strong San Francisco Bay is not. you know for people that haven't been. there it's not just like some lovely. little chill body of water that you hang. out in no it's not a very hospitable. body of water at all it's not so um the. the the idea was that yeah like when you. got sent to Alcatraz you weren't getting. off of that island and you either. paroled or died um and that was actually. the reason that the angland and Frank. Morris were sent there was because they. had all met at the federal pen in.

Atlanta I guess the one down in Grant. Park right yeah which that building is. amazing it's one of the most forbidding. buildings in the world I would say it. looks like a old timey Federal. Penitentiary and Al Capone was there too. for a little while yeah I actually drove. by there not too long ago with my. daughter for the first time and I was. like check out that building look at. that it's like that's a prison she went. what's a prison and I went oh well I. guess I got to explain that now I'll. tell you when you're 18 if you make it. and don't go to prison first right so.

they they all met at the federal pen in. Atlanta and I can't remember if they. actually made it out or if they were. caught escaping but they were known. Escape artists like the the um Frank. Morris had escaped from places in. Florida um they they didn't stay put. when you when you put them in prison and. so that's why they were all sent to. Alcatraz and just crazily as they. arrived between 1960 and 1961 they were. all put pretty close together and in. fact the England Brothers had adjoining.

cells which is a very stupid thing to do. but that's what they did in part I. believe because there is a certain. thread of arrogance that ran through the. administration of um Alcatraz that it. was just basically inescapable yeah and. I think you also sort of want Happy. prisoners and I've heard of requests. like that being made possible before. like hey if you put me near my brother. we're going to be a lot better behaved. yeah we're definitely not going to to.

break out um I don't think we mentioned. either like Alcatraz was so formidable. as a just a an island that the very. first time they used it was when the. Army uh put soldiers there who who. cheered on President Lincoln's death and. so they didn't even bother building a. prison though they just built some. Barracks threw them on the island and. it's like well you're in prison now cuz. good luck getting out of here yeah. that's what I saw too um and when the. the Bureau of Prisons took over. they they really fortified it even more.

like you said there was a larger. building that housed everything from. like the mess hall to the cell blocks so. when you were in a Cell in a Cell Block. you were in you were in a little tiny. prison inside a larger prison onside. This Island prison um and the the cell. blocks themselves had like 3in thick. concrete walls reinforced iron bars the. building itself was made of very thick. concrete it was it was just meant to to. to basically tell you there's there's no.

getting out here but um what's what's. crazy is um Frank Morris and the England. Brothers they weren't the first people. to ever tried to bust out um I believe. they were part of a total of 36 people. who tried to escape in the history of. the the prison um everybody else almost. everybody else was either um killed uh. captured or their bodies were found. except and I did not realize this um. Morris and the England Brothers were not. the first people to vanish Without a.

Trace from Alcatraz had you heard about. um Ted Cole and Ralph row I hadn't heard. about them until this but in the 30s. late 30s uh they did escape and they did. vanish and you know sort of like where. this story's going or I don't think. anyone wants to admit that from the. prison system that they could have. really made it right so they're like nah. they they died they drowned but the. thing is the thing that really. differentiates um the England brothers. and Frank Morris from guys like Ted Cole. and Ralph row they all shared in common.

that they escaped from alcatra and. vanished without a trace the thing that. differentiates Morris and the England is. that their folk Heroes because almost. exclusively because of this plan they. devised and executed and that the plan. was so good and so complex and well done. that it it actually lends Credence to. the idea that they may have survived and. escaped from alcatra gen genuinely yeah. and what they had in common is that they.

were all top 10 in uh best abs in the. prison system yep and what everybody. listening right now has in common is. that you're about to hear an. [Music]. ad serious.

[Music]. okay we're back everybody um and I think. it's high time we we talk about the plan. the Escape Plan don't you yeah if you're. going to escape from Alcatraz um it's. not the kind of thing where you distract. a guard and just run and jump over a. fence you got to start this thing uh. this plan many months in advance M and. by all accounts they and and by all. accounts meaning from the one account.

that we really have of this they started. planning easily 6 months before the. Escape they start developing this plan. they start collecting kind of anything. they can get their hands on that they. think they can use um everything from. just loose nuts and bolts and screws to. um things that I mean they actually. ended up using a lot of this stuff but I. got the impression that they were just. kind of like anytime they saw something. that they could squirrel away and hide. they would do it because you never know.

what you could use it for yeah and so. like over the six-month period they. amassed something like 80 tools that. they either stole uh had stolen for them. uh rebuild or repurposed out of other. stuff uh or just made completely out of. like their own labor like they had a. pretty extensive toolkit that they. created um one of the ways that they got. a lot of the the tools was from Alan. West who haven't mentioned yet but a lot.

of people don't realize there was a. fourth conspirator in the Alcatraz. Escape um who was a major integral part. of it but who actually didn't go along. with the Escape as we'll see oh man that. part of the movie is so tough it is um. especially with that poor guy he he just. looks yeah that Char he came out of the. womb like I'm down on my luck can can. you spare a dime brother his name he's. so good he's been in so many things but. he was um I think he was the guy who. played Kramer on Seinfeld in the uh in.

the Pilot in the NBC pilot yeah so like. in the show the guy playing Kramer on. the show in the show I think that was. him yeah he stole the M&M's I think yeah. yeah so he was in Escape From alcatra. too yeah he just he's he's perfect for. that part but this guy named Alan West. he he was on the painting crew and he. put that to use big time one of the. first ways he did it was he was in the. prison barber shop and managed to Ste a. pair of electric Clippers while he was.

in there painting and they were like hey. this motor will come in handy well let's. repurpose it into a power drill and they. did yeah that's pretty cool he also uh I. mean just having a little motor is so. handy mhm so he came across a vacuum. cleaner that wasn't working and he said. hey you mind if I repair this uh I got. to shake the tree first but after that. you mind if I repair this is that what. they call it a vacuuming no and you got. a pee on the on the Chain Gang don't you. call it shaking the tree oh I guess I.

think that's what it's called sure but I. mean what does it have to do with fix in. a vacuum nothing it's just prison humor. I got you it's going be a lot of prison. jokes so all the inmates left listening. right now just busted out laughing like. he said shake the tree well it's a. drinking. game how well explain if you're. listening from prison if someone says. shake the tree you take a. drink of Pruno well that's another drink. yeah yeah that's but that's what you.

would drink when somebody said shake the. tree say shake the tree one more time. right shake the tree guys I think. everybody's got a pretty good buzz in. prison right now so he says let me fix. this vacuum cleaner they say that's fine. he saw that the vacuum cleaner had a. couple of different Motors and one of. which he used to repair and actually. make you know pass it off as A working. vacuum cleaner and then he just took. that other one and that meant that they. could make a drill that was even more. powerful than the other one yeah um so. they had not one but two electric drills.

um at their disposal which kind of gives. you a pretty good idea of just how. dedicated and smart and crafty these. guys were right yes um they also very. famously ended up with. 5050 different raincoats that were made. from rubber prison issue raincoats that. they got from other inmates and this. really reveals something that I think a. lot of people don't necessarily realize. it seems like basically all the inmates. in prison with angland the angland and.

Morris were well aware of their plans. not necessarily every detail or even any. of the details just that they were. planning on breaking out and so they. managed to get their hands on like 50. different raincoats from other prisoners. that they used to to build um a life. raft and life vests with pretty great uh. I think the idea was is that these guys. didn't like being on alcatra so they. kind of figured hey if these guys. actually get out they're going to close. this place down we're going to get out. of here right not you know I don't I.

don't know if I would have gone along. with that. rationale I would have thought it's. going to be even worse for us here oh. yeah but we'll we'll hang on to what. happened till the end of the show how. about that I think everybody would have. kept their Pruno from you had you raised. that point you know so they've got all. this stuff they got paint they got paper. they they collect hair and uh from the. from the barber shop they like sweep up. his hair and keep that you might be. thinking why in the world would they. need that oh just wait you'll see. and then they had about three and a half.

hours each evening uh after dinner slop. and before lights out where they had to. work um and create you know a way out of. their prison cell and then once they get. out of their prison cell like you said. they're still in this larger building. then way out of there but the first. trick is getting out of their individual. cells yeah so from what I understand. that took up like The Lion Share of the. time between when they first hatched. this plan and the time when they finally. escaped um there were like these little.

6X 8 or n or something very small. ventilation shafts cemented into the. wall um these the grates were cemented. into the wall but really it was just a. little metal grate over a hole so they. figured it they could start chipping. away at that hole and enlarge the hole. into something they could crawl through. and that's exactly what they did um. eventually over time Frank Morris and. then both of the England Brothers. managed to uh create these holes um and.

they did so by by serving as lookout for. one another while the other one chipped. one night and then they would trade off. that kind of thing and then here's a. question that I have I could not confirm. one way or the other if it was a movie. thing or if it was a real life thing but. in the movie they create um these kind. of cardboard false walls yeah that. they're able to fill the hole with that. it looks like the grate is still there. and the wall is still intact um so they. were out of their cells they could put.

this false wall in behind them and um. nobody would be any the wiser when they. just walk past and casually glanced in. there I don't know if they did that or. not I mean it's a pretty great detail of. the movie so I'm inclined to believe it. let's go with it what I didn't see in or. I don't I haven't seen it in a long time. did they have those drills in the movie. CU I just remember a lot of digging with. the um they kind of just like used a. sharpened spoon as a a little mini pick. a sharpened spoon U with a uh the.

warden's fingernail clippers that he. steals in like one of the first scenes. but there was no drill in the movie was. there not that I remember I think so but. there definitely were two drills one of. the one of the drills that one with the. um vacuum motor they actually figured. out it's just too loud it's too powerful. yeah um and too loud that so they they. abandoned that one but I don't know what. became of the the um hair clipper drill. I didn't hear anything about that one. other than that they created it and used. it well they managed to dig through.

though where they could get their bodies. out of the cell mhm uh and that just. must have felt like you know we're we're. halfway there at this point guys oh yeah. I'll bet so they um from there it led to. a utility Corridor it was about a meter. wide and there were no guards in here. because this is sort of like the guts of. the prison yeah like why would you need. to guard where there are no. people wink wink uh and in that Corridor. they could kind of move around freely. they uh would climb up to the ceiling uh. this is like a three-story cell block.

still within a larger building though of. course like we mentioned and then they. had a full-on workshop up there for a. few weeks they could store their tools. they could hide their stuff they could. build uh we haven't really talked about. the rafts but where they much they would. build their rafts there and it just sort. of sort of serves as their staging area. uh where they would eventually leave. from to go by this big heavy iron grate. to a ventilation shaft which actually. fin led to the rooftop right but that.

big Iron great was a big Iron problem. because the Bars were reinforced there. was they were um I think welded or maybe. screwed I'm not sure into this um iron. ring that covered this ventilation shaft. so it was a big problem and then they. figured out that the bolts holding this. whole thing together were actually not. nearly as strong as the bars that made. up the Great and the ring that held the. bars so they started working away at at. cutting these bolts one way or another I.

think they um created a wrench they. built themselves a wrench and they. managed to use that to some pretty good. effect but it it went from digging out. of their cells to figuring out a way to. to get through this great um that was. kind of like stage two um and then let's. talk about the raft because the raft is. a extremely important part of this whole. thing and I think really one of the. things if not the thing that that lends. Credence to the idea that they might. have actually made it yeah so they got. these raincoats and back then raincoats.

were just basically sheets of rubber. yeah they didn't breathe very well no. they were very hot think like you get. sweaty Gorton's fisherman type of stuff. a sweaty Gorton's fisherman oh yeah that. guy was always sweaty so they ended up. creating a 6ot x 14t life raft from. these raincoats from uh an article in. Popular Mechanics which shows up a. couple of times very useful magazine if. you were trying to escape prison and it. was an article about. who had gotten lost and survived hunting.

geese that he attracted using rubber. decoys that he'd made so they get this. idea they build these uh inflatable. pontoons made from these raincoat. sleeves so they were stuffed inside and. made airtight by gluing uh rubber cement. contact cement over the seams and then. pressing them against steel pipes which. vulcanized it it just basically melted. everything shut and then you have these. floatable pontoons that you could use. and craft this larger raft yeah so they.

had something that was inflatable that. like because those seams were vulcanized. it would hold the air the air couldn't. escape um and they used a a. concertina um oh I can't remember. handsome Pete there's like a little a. little guy who um plays the accordion. down on the docks that looks just like. crusty the clown in one of The Simpsons. episodes and he's playing a concertina. it's like a Squeeze Box it's like an. accordion without the keys in the. buttons yeah but it acts as a Bellows.

cuz it moves air essentially that's what. they used it for they modified it so. that they could use it to inflate their. raft very quickly with this concertina. that I guess they stole from the prison. music room which is pretty great so. they're working on all this stuff and. the raft in particular this this is like. the the Lynch pin of this whole plan is. this raft and these life preservers that. work fell to Allen West so while these. dudes were CH were were like chipping. away at the the ventilation holes um. Alan West was standing lookout for most.

of them and he was creating this raft in. these life vests and so he wasn't able. to chip away at his own ventilation hole. nearly as fast so while they were out. you know working on the the um grate the. vent cover grate he still had no way out. of his cell at that point he hadn't made. it all the way through yeah and you know. we should point out something that. earlier we mentioned if if they happen. to walk by and they don't notice a hole. in the wall because they may or may not. have made these false uh grates and.

walls mhm if you're a listener and you. don't know the story you might have said. like yeah but wouldn't they have noticed. there was no one in the cell good. question what they did was they made. papier-mâché Recreations of themselves. they made these busts H they use that. prison hair which is so gross it's so. groy and use that rubber cement again to. glue this hair on and if if you see the. real. things it's not Madam too or anything. it's not like boy look at that likeness.

photo realistic but it's in the dark and. you're sort of I think as a human. trained to to see what you're looking. for so if you're a guard that's just. walking by you see a head turn the other. way with with prison hair on it uhuh and. some pillows uh under a blanket and you. you don't think it looks fake it just. looks like uh it wasn't like Ferris bu. Style with um like a fake snore on the. high-i system or anything right but you. just kind of walk past it worked well. enough like they did this for weeks and.

weeks and weeks with these papier-mâché. busts and it worked they never got. noticed no they didn't because I mean. remember like the the they were working. between the end of dinner and lights out. so they just seem to have made it look. like they went to bed early um and put. the papier-mâché busts in there those. guys sure are sleepy yeah too much Pruno. For You Frank got a lot I got a lot of. questions about this but I'm not going. to investigate any further exactly so do. you want to talk about the escape and. then go to AB. bre yeah I think that's a way to do it.

okay so finally they get to this point. where the grate is the bars are removed. from this grate enough that they can. slip through and they realize that they. have um they have. successfully uh. penetrated the to the exterior of the. building that's right okay they're on. the roof uh well they know they can get. on the roof now they know that is night. I I bet you they got up there at least. once to be like all right I don't know I.

haven't heard anything like that and. there's a lot of questions about why. this particular night was this the very. first night that they were able to get. out and they're like let's go um which. seems likely to me or were they waiting. for a particular night or like you said. have they tested it before they do any. dry runs we don't really know that um. but we we do know is that on Monday June. 11th. 1962 um JW angland Clarence angland and. Frank Morris all left their cells and. the first thing Frank Morris did was go.

to help Allan West finish um puncturing. the hole through his cell wall po still. had not done this yet he's like come on. we got to go but apparently part of the. the plan was to help him um punch the. hole out the rest of the way and then he. would escape with them um Frank Morris. apparently tried in vain and uh went off. to get Clarence England to to come try. they traded off and then Clarence tried. he couldn't do it either so I guess he. had the very um uh.

uncomfortable I'll be right back I got. to go I got to go shake the tree right. or something like that I'll be right. back you stay here yeah and that was the. last anybody ever saw of Frank Morris. Clarence angland or JW angland from from. that moment until today yeah so they. they get to that Corridor they climb up. to um the roof of the cell block and. then through that ventilation shaft that. great is no longer a problem and they. push away Alan West they can just barely. hear him saying like you guys are coming.

back right any minute now you said um so. there there's this rain cover on top. they push that thing off and this this. all makes some noise and and in the. movie they uh they kind of accurately. display that too as some clanking and. clanging around yeah and uh I don't. think in the movie they did this but in. real life supposedly there was so much. noise that they did like a little 45. minute um kind of a a search of the area. right didn't see anything. no they didn't go up on the roof that's. for sure and uh they basically didn't.

find anything so the guys are out they. shimmy about 50 ft to the ground uh via. drain pipe which is how you always do it. go to that perimeter fence and I'm sure. the perimeter fence was fine but I think. the idea was that they're never getting. out anyway so I don't think it had like. 15 ft of razor wire or anything like. that I think it did have double barbed. wire at least for sure nothing for it's. not like concertina wire or anything no.

nothing like that uh around 1 in the. morning Allan West poor Allen West he. finally gets that cell great broken open. yeah I I I'm sure he just thinks all. right I'm going to catch up to these. guys and it's going to be all good and. I'm getting out of here follow that same. route it's been a couple of hours at. this point though he saw these were. genuinely good dudes it seemed like cuz. they did leave him a p I don't think we. mentioned they made paddles out of chair.

legs and the screws and nuts and bolts. yeah and a pontoon that was all inflated. for him and he got a little snack a. little Rice Krispy treat Rice Krispy. treat it's a little Pruno little shot of. Pruno for his for his courage right and. then he looks over terrible timing and. there's a guard in a new position that. basically could see anything that he. tries to do yeah from that point forward. he's visually pinned down on the roof he. can't do anything so this is around 1:00. a.m. or something and he figures okay.

the guard will eventually move well Alan. West says the guard never moved for. until dawn doesn't this guy pee right. doesn't he ever shake the tree right um. and he didn't he did not shake the tree. he stayed put and So eventually Allan. West was forced to climb back down the. ventilation shaft back down from the. roof of the cell block three stories. back to his cell that he had just a few. hours earlier finally after months. punched a hole through. and he went and laid down and just.

waited for the the heat to come down on. him and indeed it did because at the 700. a.m. bed check three dummy heads were. discovered or three inmates real heads. should have been uh and the prison just. went berserk you know that feeling you. get when you take a wrong turn and go. like three or four miles in the wrong. direction and have to go all the way. back the other way yeah imagine being. Allan West and having to do that that. times infinity that times Infinity yeah. you want to take another break I think.

so man all right we'll get to the well. we won't get to the bottom of this but. we'll speculate all over the place right. after this. [Music]. [Music]. [Music].

okay so there are some things that we. know about this from watching the movie. but the movie writers based the movie on. a book and the book author I believe. based his stuff on an interview or. interviews with Alan West that Alan West. had with the Bureau of Prisons and the. FBI because basically everything we know. about the Escape from Alcatraz came from. the mouth of Allen West yeah so he made.

a deal he said listen I'll tell you all. about it but you can't throw me in here. for longer because I tried to escape. prison you got to give me immunity for. that attempted escape and let's be. honest guys it really wasn't much of an. attempt can you give me a break here. right uh I had to make the sad Walk of. Shame back to the cell I have a feeling. that that definitely factored into their. decision to give them immunity like man. probably so you really uh you really got. a hard luck case so he makes a deal and.

says I'll tell you everything but again. this is just his account of it um one. thing that kind of jumped out as maybe. it's not the most accurate account was. that he was like yeah I was The. Mastermind I thought of the whole thing. from the start yeah and I don't know if. that's quite true because it seems like. Clint Eastwood did yeah certainly the. the in the movie the movie's basically. should be called Cole and the Frank. Morris story yeah he's the main. character everybody else is a side. character um it really kind of.

downplayed a lot of the contributions by. the England Brothers certainly by Alan. West doesn't even use Alan West's name. um so I don't know how much of an. influence is from that movie or if that. movie was just based on the general idea. that Frank Morris was um The Mastermind. and the leader that he was a very. intelligent person and kind of a born. leader from what I know so it's just not. clear whether Alan West actually came up. with this plan or not was he the one who.

seed the the raft all this time and he. got left behind or maybe he had really. weak arms and this was just what he told. the the the Bureau of Prisons. investigators it was the reason why he. never was able to chip out of the his. cell who knows but just so just bear in. mind from this point forward we're just. going to go on with the with this's. gospel but all of this is coming from. Alan West mouth he was the one that was. left behind I I feel like in the movie. he got to the point where he could not. jump up by himself and reach the great. is that right uh yeah so in the movie.

they help each other up and then um he. would he would have had to have done it. himself and he couldn't jump he just. kept jumping and jumping and couldn't. make it yes but from what I know he made. it up to the roof and was pinned down on. the roof by that that guard in the. Watchtower I don't think it was a guard. inside no no no no you're right in the. movie it was like that so uh the plan. was and this is again from West's. account said was to sail this raft or I. guess paddle This raft across the bay to.

Angel Island about a mile away a little. over and he said from there they were. going to rest for a little bit get their. bearings stash everything and then swim. to the mainland uh across What's called. the raccoon Straits to Mar uh Marin. County and then once they got there they. would start doing crime again. immediately they would rob a store for. clothes and money and steal a car and. get the heck out of there as quickly as. possible before word gets out ostensibly. which is a pretty great plan actually. except for the crime part like I would.

have I don't know I guess the idea is to. just get as far away as possible but I. don't know if I would have yeah but you. need a car it's not like somebody's. going to just give you one you can take. the. BART sure you could take the BART I. guess I think the BART was around back. then I think it was a pretty good maybe. there were just like one last Heist to. get away from here maybe that's what it. was maybe because they just want I mean. I get they want the urge to get as far. away from there as possible but so what. if all of a sudden cops are on you from. stealing a car.

immediately I guess it's a risk it's all. a risk it is a big risk and a lot of. people say that um they were actually. helped on the other side there was a guy. named um oh man I can't remember his. last name but his his first or his. nickname was bumpy he was aill a harlem. uh crime lord drug lord um who is just a. total ba um and they think that he may. have had something to do with helping. them ES Cape uh with somebody who would. have shown up and and picked them up and.

driven them off other people say that. one of the England's girlfriends was. there but the FBI supposedly. investigated and said Frank Morris. didn't have anybody he was an orphan he. didn't have anybody on the outside who. could have helped the England had family. that definitely would have helped if. they could but they um didn't have the. means to actually to help them out in. San Francisco they bumpkins so yeah but. they were a tight family and they were. the kind of family where I think if one. of them had called him been like I'm. breaking on I need you to pick me up. they would have done it that they're. like that kind of tight family bond not.

like my family would be like oh I'll. call you right back and then hello FBI. how much of a reward do you have for. giving up a prison escapee yes a federal. prison oh that much huh great do you. have a pen can you do any. better right so yeah that's exactly what. my family would follow up with uh they. did find some evidence though um they. did uh a search for about a week and a. half um along with the FBI like you were. saying and their Bureau prisons and the.

Alcatraz people they were all super mad. of course especially in the movie. version and they search Angel Island. they search all the other islands in the. bay and they did find uh one of those. life preservers that had teeth marks uh. on the inflation valve they found a. wallet wrapped in plastic that they. figured was JW angland yeah they found. one of those ores and they found it. looked like most of one of the rafts or. most of the raft it did but no bodies no. stolen cars no.

burglaries um no one had reported. anything in the area unusual uh to to. according to their plan which was to you. know steal clothes and money in a car. yeah and so the Bureau of Prisons like. right out of the gate was like they. drowned they're they were washed out to. sea that's it we'll never hear from them. again but they're dead they didn't. actually Escape um and that this was in. 1962 it wasn't until 1979 that the FBI. closed the book and said yeah that's. probably what happened we we presumed. that they were dead and their bodies.

lost at sea um but when they were. building this case uh they cited the the. um story of a guy named Seymour Webb who. had jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge. at virtually the same time the England. and Morris would have been in San. Francisco Bay and his body was never. found uh despite there being Witnesses. who watched him jump very flimsy yeah um. yes but at the same time it does kind of. demonstrate like look man could was. never yeah he was never found he jumped. at the same time the angland and Morris.

were in the water so maybe their bodies. were never found there was a sighting of. a body about five weeks later in July of. 1962 um by a group of Norwegian Sailors. who saw something kind of floating off. and they were like is that a body yeah. they went and got binoculars and they. said that's a body it was a body it was. um floating upside down so all they. could see was the butt basically kind of. bobbing in the water and the butt looked. through their binoculars at least to.

have on jeans have on Denim and they you. know that was part of the prison outfit. was they were wearing denim and the F. this this is the part that kind of gets. a little flimsy to me is the FBI said. that there were no missing persons in. the area in that time frame that were. wearing. jeans right are you ready for this so. are you sitting down who knows and it. was reported many weeks later so it it. you know it was all it it was kind of. hearsay I guess gu at that point it was. and then by the time they actually.

reported the sighting it was October so. they're like well that's kind of useless. but they they do point to that and say. okay this combined with Seymour web we. think that their bodies were swept out. to sea not everybody agrees with that um. including the angland family who very. much maintained that their brothers uh. survived this Escape from Alcatraz and. actually um had a. photograph that I don't know where they. got it but they they have a photograph. that was supposedly taken of their. brothers in Brazil in.

1975 that they shared could have been. them it does it certainly does and. there's actually a company I can't. remember the name of the company but. they do like um artificial intelligence. facial recognition so they're just. really leading the way to a dystopia but. they were like hey everybody we want to. introduce you to our software so we're. going to analyze this picture and um the. their AI said yep definitely the angland. how cool is that yeah I mean I certainly. looked at it and it it it could be it. didn't look so unlike them that it was.

like no way right um and again I found. myself being like yeah man these guys. made it to. Brazil and they're they're Robin Banks. there to this day exactly right I have. them raising cattle in Brazil that's my. that's my idea uh in 2013 there was a. letter sent to the San Francisco Police. Department uh supposedly from JW England. saying hey we made it guys but just. barely U Morris died in 200 8 we kept in. touch great guy um Clarence died in 2011.

and I'm still alive but I got cancer I. need help and I'm going to come forward. if you if you promise and pinky swear. and tell the public that you're not. going to send me to jail for more than. one year and you're going to heal my. cancer yeah and apparently they analyzed. the letter and like this is inconclusive. but the FBI was like we closed this case. in 1979 we're not about to open it up. but here's the thing the the idea that. they survived is at least possible.

enough that for this whole time the US. Marshal's office who took over the case. from the FBI in. 1979 um have have kept it open like. these guys are wanted Outlaws still to. this day even though they would be 89 90. and 95 I think by now they are. considered wanted fugitives and the case. is open even though I believe the. Marshall service typically believes that. they're dead they haven't closed the. case yeah here's my deal if you do. something like this and you don't leave. some rock solid deathbed evidence then.

you're just. selfish you really are you owe it to the. world to to have this be a lead story. and be like Frank Morris died and he you. know here's the evidence here's that. little flower from the movie yeah. exactly you te Teach Your smartest head. of cattle to stamp out a message in. Morse. code that's what I want you spending. your dying days doing teaching that cow. the Marshalls say that they don't think. they survived and and went on to lead.

lives of solitude because they're like. these guys are career criminals mhm they. would have done something again they. would have gotten caught again it's a. good point uh Arguments for is that and. they don't know if they plan this that. way or not but when they went on the day. they went and during the hours they went. they actually had a few good hours of. pretty calm Bay currents um the you know. it could be so bad that they're going to. pull you out to seea or so that they. take you in the wrong direction. completely away from land uhhuh and they.

said that you know whether it was just. Providence or whether they planned it. this way they had a cloudy night so. there wasn't much light from the Moon. and they had a really calm Bay So in. theory they they might could have done. this they could have but the winds were. really terrible that night too um I. think they were gusts up to like 21. miles an hour sustained winds of like 10. miles hour in which direction though. that's tough to row um I who knows if if. it was lucky then yeah if it was blowing. them toward Angel Island that was in.

their favor it was blowing in any other. direction that would make it very very T. to Brazil and then maybe maybe so. they're like well that was fortunate I. didn't even have to steal a car um the. uh the other problem is the water the. water temperature is like 50° Fahrenheit. which is very very cold and you get very. um numb and eventually uh sent into. shock and then exhaustion pretty quickly. after being in this water for 30 minutes. or less but people swim in that thing.

they do and it's happened before they. have triathlons in in that water and. people do it so it's not to say that. these guys could not have done it it. wasn't so frigid that science would say. oh no you would die inside five minutes. in this water exactly I mean especially. if they were operating on the adrenaline. that they surely would have had from the. Escape shimmying 50 ft down a drain pipe. alone will pump you full of some pretty. decent adrenaline so who knows what they. were capable of at the time I have a. theory let's hear is that the angland uh.

killed Frank Morris out there on that. raft and that was the body they saw. floating and that's why they made it to. Brazil and we never heard from Frank. Morris again oh I don't like your theory. you don't think like turning on them at. the last minute no no my theory is that. that body was actually Seymour web that. he was wearing denim jeans under pants. that got taken off of his other pants. and that he wasn't actually dead but he.

met a mermaid um or merman uh who he. fell in love with and spent the rest of. his life under the sea with well that's. lovely I like that theory but the cherry. on top here is that those prisoners who. wanted to help them Escape because they. thought the prison would close uh were. right the prison was shut down the. following March and the Bureau of Prison. said you know what we were going to shut. this thing down anyway because alcatra. is just too much to keep up this yeah. this big concrete block on a Rocky.

island is too expensive to keep up with. very few guards uh so who knows but in. the movie they definitely sort of. portray it as as that's the reason why. yeah and the warden never had a happy. day again that's right pretty satisfying. film pretty satisfying film and Chuck I. guess we said all this to say this we. have a book coming out that we would. love for you to pre-order yeah that's. right stuff you should know. was that jarring an incomplete. compendium of mostly interesting thing.

and guys one of our lifelong dreams is. to be on the New York Times bestseller. list yeah they give you a t-shirt we. really want to get on that list and if. that list came out today we wouldn't be. on. it so we would love for you to step up. and help our dreams come true sure how's. that for a plea I think that's a great. plea a plea and a plug all together it's. a pleague what is this thing C 20 bucks. I think so and it's worth every penny I. can tell you because we wrote it that's.

right so um that's it if you want to go. order our book you can pre-order. anywhere you get books thank you in. advance and uh I think that's it for. escape from Alcatraz too right that's it. uh if you want to know more about. escaping from Alcatraz there is some. really great articles and books and all. sorts of stuff out there in the internet. for you to dig into so get digging since. I said get digging it's time for. listener. mail I'm GNA call this Delaware response. we kind of poked fun at Delaware a.

little bit oh we now I guess it was me. but uh. delawareans delawarians delawareans. delawarean. delarian they are lovely people as it. seems because we've gotten quite a few. emails and they all have good humor. about their their lovely little State uh. Hey guys our Delaware family had to. laugh at your Pirate Radio podcast. delawarians oh yeah it's right there. would be proud to be known as the. luxemborg of the United States most. people drive through our state on I95 in. less than 30 minutes but if you do stop.

by our state is rich in history and. Agriculture and we have a few nice. beaches what you should know is the Ark. on the top of our state I guess it's an. arch is made by a 12m. radius from Newcastle uh in historic. town what many people do not know is the. bottom of the Ark formed a wedge betwix. Pennsylvania Maryland and Delaware the. ownership of that land was in dispute. between Delaware and Pennsylvania for. decades only to be resolved in 1921.

rumor has it that the disputed land was. a Haven for unsavory types who. capitalized on the uncertain. jurisdiction thanks for the show informs. and entertains my family and we wish you. well from Delaware the first state to. ratify the Constitution oh that is from. Doug wgat and family nice Doug thank you. I would have led with the first state to. ratify the Constitution think I I bet. they tout that a lot that's a that's a. good thing to doubt y uh well if you.

want to be like Doug and defend your. state whether it's Delaware or not we. want to hear from you and you can send. it in an email to stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart. Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].