Selects: How Spiritualism Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Hey guys, it's me, your old pal Josh. And for this week's select, I've chosen. our 2020 episode on spiritualism, which. as you might be able to tell from the. first couple minutes was recorded during. the height of the COVID pandemic. Um. that's not why I chose this one. I chose. it because it's been coming up a lot. lately uh for some reason in episode. after episode, >> [music]. >> um. which I've taken as a sign to choose. this as a select. Uh but it's also kind.

of made me think about all of the back. and forth I've gone through in my life. Is there an afterlife? Is there not an. afterlife? Who knows? That's where I'm. at right now. Who knows? [music]. So, maybe listen to this episode about. the spiritualism movement and see what. you think about the whole thing. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeartRadio.

>> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant over there somewhere. in the heart of darkness. I'm in the office, dude. Where? I hear. your voice, Chuck, but I can't see you. [laughter]. Yeah, uh I mean, I don't know why people. need to know the behind-the-scenes. things, but home recording provides some. challenges, and. I was getting pretty frustrated, so I. was like, you know what? I'm going to go. to the studio. Yeah.

Because I know it'll sound great in. here. Yeah, it does. >> I know there won't be dogs and children. And uh everyone should feel good about. it because uh I have not seen another. human being Yeah. in the building. Didn't a security guard. Didn't a security guard try to run you. off the road when you were parking? He didn't try He stopped me literally in. in the parking lot. He was like, "What. are you doing here?" I was like, "I'm. going to my job." And he said, "Okay.". >> [laughter]. >> He said, "Stay home, save lives.". But, before we left, I mean, I.

apparently since I left uh. they have these um. >> [clears throat]. >> there's a bottle of microphone. sanitizer. Whoa. There are headphone. sanitized or not sanitized, but just. disposable headphone covers. >> Sweet. And I feel more safe here than I do at. my house. >> What? Microphone sanitizer? That sounds. really made up. Yeah, it's um. I'll go ahead and buzz market. No, I. won't because it smells bad. Now, I.

didn't want to buzz market and then say. it smells bad. It's apple flavor. Whoa. >> Which would make Emily just like turn. over in her bed. It's a It's a good um Jolly Rancher. flavor, not the best scent, though. I hate it when they add scent to stuff. that doesn't need scent. >> Yeah, agreed. Try finding an unscented. garbage bag these days. Uh. is it tough to? >> Yeah, man. Every single one of them I I. even got some that said unscented and it. still smells like something. >> [laughter].

>> You missed that in parentheses. underneath it says mostly. Yeah, 99% unscented. Right. [laughter]. We can't help ourselves. >> 1% rosemary. Well, I uh don't have my. over-the-ear headphones right now. I. just have earbuds. >> I saw that look. >> [laughter]. >> So, I'm wearing one of Yumi's long. scarves. uh wrapped around my head twice to keep. from your audio bleeding onto the track. through my microphone. >> [laughter].

>> You either look like Lawrence of Arabia. or. like you just wandered in with a head. injury. Yeah, I had to It kept slipping. off with the Lawrence of Arabia look, so. I had to do it the other way around. So, now it looks like I have a 19th-century. toothache. Okay. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, man. Send me another picture. >> It's not It's not very comfortable. My. Adam's apple is being pressed toward the. back of my throat right now. Yeah, what was the deal with that whole. toothache thing? Like. was there uh. ice in there or something or was it just. like uh just tie their chin shut and.

it'll help. Knowing that era, there were. probably some sort of like razor blade. and a heroin concoction that would just. scrape the area where the tooth was and. inject you with dope to keep you from. complaining. [laughter]. Doctor uh. Doctor Pain's new chin wrap, now with. more leeches. Right. The from the makers. of microphone sanitizer. >> [laughter]. [gasps]. >> All right, let's get into this. We've. already been.

uh goofing around for too long. Let's. just finish. >> Let's get this over with. Let's get. serious and talk about spiritualism, shall we? This is a great great uh job. by Grabster. Great idea by you. And. it'll be a great episode. Yeah, Grabster, we we asked him to help us out. with this, so he put together a. world-class article for us. And um when. we asked him, we said, "Hey, how about. spiritualism?" He goes, "My brother. wrote his dissertation on that. Should. be simple.". And I mean. >> forwarded us that. Yeah. >> [laughter].

>> He did He He didn't even like erase his. brother's first name. He just did a. strike through and wrote Ed after it. Easy money. So, um. it is like a really really interesting. phenomenon, something I think we kind of. take for granted because it pops up. everywhere. in our world and pop culture. I mean, it's just a part of everything from. crystal balls to seances to Ouija boards. to tarot cards. All of this stuff. Movies, yeah. As a matter of fact, I ran.

across So, you know Dan Aykroyd is huge. into UFOs, right? Uh I did know that, actually. >> He's also enormous into spirits and. ghosts. It's actually one of the. impetuses. Yeah, I think so. Of him writing. Ghostbusters. He's actually a. fourth-generation spiritualist. with a capital S. Like the church. spiritualism. He was raised that way. His His father, grandfather, and. great-grandfather were all. spiritualists, and that's how he was. raised as well.

Um so, it does just kind of it's so. permeated our our culture. It's weird to. think of a time when it wasn't there, but there actually was this period. starting in right about in the middle of. the 19th century going well into the. 20th century where. there was a movement that basically said. the spirit world is there. It exists. When you die, your personality survives, and some people actually have a talent.

for communicating with the spirits in. the spirit world, and we're going to. start doing that. And that was. spiritualism, the spiritualist movement. Yeah, um and Ed uh pointed out, which we. should as well, that. ghosts and things like that and ghost. stories, they had been around since. people have been around. Everyone since. the dawn of humankind has tried to. figure out like what happens after you. die, do people visit, do they take on, you know, other other forms or whatever.

So, that's different than what we're. talking about. What we're talking about. is. spiritualism in that it became a. a big scam and way to get money out of. people who were in pain from a friends'. or loved ones' death. Sadly, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um but there is like a through a a. thread through there where. um this same era, this same period, and. this belief in communicating with the. spirits and the idea that you could go.

to a seance and talk to your dead loved. one or whatever, it it produced this other group of. people who said, "Yes, there are tons of. fraudsters and hucksters out there who. are taking advantage of this, but. there's also this real um. there's a the real version of of it. actually does exist, and we're going to. apply this newfangled thing called. science to investigate it, and that. produced that that era of people like.

Charles Fort or Harry Price who visited. the Borley Rectory, the most haunted. place in England. Um or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Um Like. these guys. >> I know. [laughter]. I'm trying out a new version. I like it. >> these guys though, they they were. they they believed in this stuff and the. possibility of it they also believed in. the possibility of applying science to. it, and even if science couldn't explain.

it, it didn't mean that it didn't exist. And then there was another group who. were what we would recognize today as. like pure skeptics, like the James. Randys of the day who all followed in. the footsteps of Harry Houdini as we'll. see, who kind of created this. So you. had hucksters, believers who were. skeptical, and genuine pure skeptics who. believed none of it was correct. Yeah, and what I mentioned before, like. all the previous attempts to do stuff. like this. pre-mid-1800s.

in largely the Northeast United States. >> Yeah. it was more religious like. prophets and shamans and stuff like. that. Spiritualism was the birth of the. Madame Cleos of the world. >> Oh [laughter] yeah. Ed refers to it as a democratization. And that's one way to look at it, but it. was it was the idea that. hey, if you are chosen and you are. special um you can you know, it's not. like you have to be some religious. leader, you can just be a regular person. with the gift. Exactly, yeah, which was. a huge sea change, and um.

there are basically a few things that. kind of came together for this. mentality, this um. this fertile kind of imagination of this. pocket of America in Western New York. where all this began to kind of take. shape. And one of those things was the. frontier, this frontier mentality. Um. the historian Frederick Jackson Turner. called it the significance of the. frontier in American history. And he basically said, "Man, the people.

who are living out there on the. frontier, they're living on the edge of. civilization the the leading edge, right? Right beyond that, what they're. coming up against." And and this is. highly debatable because part of what. they were coming up against was. Native America. It just wasn't a. civilization in the form that any. European had ever encountered before. But the idea was that the people who. were living on the frontier and. expanding westward were. basically being forced just by virtue of.

having to survive under these weird. conditions outside of culture and. civilization in the European sense. That. that they were having to abandon that. culture and basically make it up as they. went along and could recreate a new. culture from the frontier. And that that. just kind of threw the rules out the. window. Yeah, this is one of my favorite things. when we do topics that uh when you can. look back at a movement. and point to factors that at any other.

time in history, if just one of these. might not have taken, you know, might. not have influenced it, then it might. not have happened at all. There's something about that that I've. always really loved. And uh this is a. perfect example. The frontier life is. one. Uh religious fervor is another. Uh and. specifically in New York. in the 1800s, people were really caught. up on this religious fervor. And it kind. of went from town to town. And there was no uh there was no big. religious authorities in the area. They.

were out on the frontier. >> Right. They had no structured hierarchy. of religion. And so again, they could. just make up stuff. Uh and I'm not. saying. that's not tied to this next sentence. cuz I don't want to turn anyone off, but. a lot of religion sprang out from this. region during that time like Millerism. and Mormonism. And uh Quakers and. Shakers kind of had a. uh a resurgence basically, a shot in the. arm just because of this fervor going on. at the time.

>> And I couldn't quite put where um. Millerism, why it seemed so familiar, and then I remembered that that was the. woman who gave birth eventually to the. Seventh-day Adventists, and that popped. up in the Kellogg episode, remember? Yeah, yeah. Millerism was where it all. started. But that was and that really. kind of indicates and I love it when. things just things we've talked about. before like have even more context from. something else. But that that just kind. of goes to show you like this is the. kind of place where somebody could be. like, "I'm in contact with the spirits.

or Jesus came and hung out with me or. whatever, and this is what I what I know. and what I've been told, so um let's. start a religion based on it." And not. even necessarily just religions, too, but also like social movements like. utopian societies And chew your food 20. times so you'll poopy steer. >> Exactly. Um or you know, women have. equal equal rights as men, which is just. completely radical. Or um how about 50. of us live together and just by the fact.

that we all live together, we're married. according to this utopian society. Uh. just just whatever you wanted to to do, you kind of could because the frontier. threw the rules out the window. Or at. the very least cultural traditions that. most people are raised into, when that's. not there, people make up their own. Yeah, for sure. Uh and the third big. factor that um that you mentioned was or. we haven't talked about yet was science. >> Mhm. And you talked a little bit about.

science at the beginning but the idea. that. in the middle of the Industrial. Revolution when we're really learning a. lot more than we ever have about science. and things like electro electromagnetism. and things that you can't see but. scientists saying oh it's there. this kind of. fed the spiritualist movement because. you know that's something else that you. can't see that other people are saying. is there so they're like well hey if. science is saying there are things out. there we can't quite explain but trust. me it's real then why shouldn't I.

believe this stuff too? Yeah or well. this electric like electromagnetism. maybe that actually explains how spirits. survive after death. It was a really. wide open time as far as you know um. acceptance of possibilities. Yeah. >> rather than no science has said this is. not possible or it can't explain this or. you can't see it with your own eyes so. it won't it doesn't it doesn't jive. Like there was a lot more willingness.

among people who were scientifically. minded to say well maybe this is a a. good explanation of that let's. investigate. Yeah the birth of science and medicine. was a really crazy time. It really was. It really was. So should we take a. break? >> [sighs and gasps]. >> Yeah come on man. Yes. I think you're. your. beard holster is on too tight. >> [laughter]. >> It is. I haven't been able to feel my. nose for about 15 minutes.

All right well go. rub your nose and bring some feeling. back and we'll talk about some of the. spiritualists. >> [music]. [music]. [music]. [music].

>> Okay, I'm going to say it's. spiritualists. Nice. Um and there there was actually so. there's a bunch of. factors that led to the beginning of all. of this including there was one that um. that I also came across that we need to. mention a guy named Andrew Jackson Davis. who combined the ideas of the German. hypnotist Franz Mesmer. Oh yeah. >> the Swedish philosopher of the soul. Emanuel Swedenborg. Um they were both. 18th century. He kind of brought them.

together and he was a bit of a nobody. but he emerged very very soon after the. Fox sisters became celebrities as a a. founder of the spiritualist movement. almost like he was doing it all in. isolation at the same time that all of. this began. Yeah, so the Fox sisters figure into. this really uh quite largely uh and you. can even pinpoint a date to what you. might consider the birth of the. modern American spiritualist movement is. March 31 1848 in Hydesville, New York.

near Rochester uh at a farm this Fox. family lived there uh real people not a. family of cute little red. furry fuzzy creatures. Voiced by George. Clooney. Yeah, exactly. Uh Mr. and Mrs. Fox had three daughters. actually. One was much older. Her name. was Leah. She was 19 and 23 years older. Uh-huh. Why was that funny? Because I. saw a picture of her and she's like the. spitting image of Jeffrey Ross. >> [laughter]. >> You got to look her up. Jeffrey Ross.

wearing a bonnet. That's that's what. Leah Fox looked like. I didn't see I saw. the picture of the three of them and I. didn't get a good close-up. That's a. unfortunate look for him and her. >> Yeah, anybody really. [laughter]. Uh and I think he would admit that, too. Oh, yeah. He's doing all right, though. What he had really thin skin? The The. Roastmaster? [laughter]. He like couldn't take a joke against. himself. Have you seen that Bumping Mike. show? It's pretty good. Uh, no. Is that the roast competition. thing? >> Yeah, he he and Dave Attell just sit.

there and roast people. It's really. good. Man, I used to love Dave Attell. back in the day. He has just turned into. like the weird like comedy genius friend. that that Jeffrey Ross has and it shines. through in this. Awesome. I'll check it out. So, the Fox. family uh older daughter Leah was 19 and. 23 years older than younger Kate and. Maggie. or I guess Maggie and Kate if you're. going in that order. And on that night. of March 31st, 1848, they heard these.

rapping knocking sounds and they didn't. know where it was coming from. And that kind of kickstarted this whole. thing. In a weird way, this led and we'll talk about the more. specifics, but in a weird way this led. to them eventually saying, "Wait a. minute. Uh, we can make some money. if we convince people that young Kate. and Maggie are a conduit to the other. side." Yeah, the the thing is is like. when it went from, you know, like, "Oh, there's a ghost rapping or knocking.".

Like a poltergeist kind of thing to. "This ghost will respond to questions. from the sisters through rapping and. knocking." Like, "How old is Maggie?". And it would rap like 15 times or. something like that. And that that. really caught a lot of people's. attention. And Maggie and Kate moved in. with Leah. And apparently, from what I. read, it was Leah whose idea it was to. take the show on the road, try to scam. people out of money. It was not a super. great person from from what I read.

Yeah, I just. Sorry. I was thinking of a rapping ghost. and. Right? [laughter]. got sidetracked in my. >> ghost of George Washington and I'm here. to say, I love Fruity Pebbles in a major. way. You know what's funny is I was going to. do that exact same thing but for the Fox. family. That's like. the go-to rap for guys like us. Oh, it. totally is. Guys who can't rap. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, I'm here to say something. something something in a something way. >> Mhm.

>> [snorts]. >> The Zack Morris method I think is what. that is. I wonder if that's based on an. actual rap. I guess there was one at. some point that really did that, right? Yeah, I think Blondie was the. popular [laughter] rapper. Um I my name is Blondie. I'm here to say. I'm going to try rap cuz it's popular. today. Exactly. >> [laughter]. >> So, uh. where did What were you saying? I was. laughing. I didn't even notice. I'm. sorry. Oh, oh, just that it was. basically I was laying at at Leah's feet.

for. >> Okay. corrupting the younger sisters. Yeah, she kind of she ended up managing. them as a unit I think later on. Mhm. Uh if I'm not mistaken, but there aren't. great records of everything going on at. the time. Right. But um the idea was. that Kate and Maggie were the ones. It. wasn't really her parents, but they're. the ones who could actually communicate. with this barn spirit. Right. And so they said, you know what? They. not only can talk to this spirit. Media starts, you know, getting a hold.

of these stories and obviously back then. that it was a a very big deal with. something like this coming out in the. media with not a lot else going on. But they moved and would go away to. other places and said wherever they go, ghosts are talking to them. So, you. guys, my daughters are talented and. gifted. They're not just uh talking to. the what we think is a murder victim. from our previous house. Right. Right. Which which just changed. everything. And also rather suspiciously.

Leah suddenly realized that she was able. to communicate with spirits, too. So, all three of the sisters were able to. But, yeah, not just that one murder. victim in their house that had been the. original ghost, but just about any. ghost. And this was the beginning of the. spiritualist movement. Basically a prank by a couple of teenage. girls that got way out of hand really. fast. Yeah, and so what do they do? They start. having these. private sessions where people would pay. money and they would wear these big long.

dresses that were in fashion at the. time. And they would no one's exactly. sure the exact mechanism, but they would. do some sort of. toe knocking or something where they. couldn't be seen. And that was the Morse code that they. said was the ghost speaking to them. So, it was it's really um they they had like. a little wooden stool under the table. with them and they would take off their. shoes surreptitiously. And from what I. can gather. they could.

pop their knuckle. of their toe. Okay. >> down with enough force. that it would make an a thud on that. wooden stool. That's creepy in and of. itself. >> It was. Yeah, they should have just been. like forget all this spirit stuff. Watch. this weird thing. [laughter]. Um but they that was that was the. phantom knocking and we know that. because Maggie later on confessed to the. New York Tribune maybe or the Post one. of them. Um.

and and said like this is how this is. how we did it. Uh actually in an effort. to take her sister Leah down. Um but it. it ended up taking the spiritualist. movement down in in large part. But, that was it. Like thumping your knuckle. on a wooden stool. They did this for. 40 40 years. They made a living around. the world doing that and created a new. religion. from it.

Yeah, and the um by the time the. spiritualism fad sort of died away the. uh two younger sisters were. and she recanted that confession by the. way, but everyone's like, yeah, you. already said it. Good try. Right. Um, but the two younger sisters. and Maggie especially were in pretty bad. shape with alcoholism and they died sort. of in a Collier brothers esque way very. quietly and fairly destitute in New York. City in the 1890s. >> And trapped under newspapers. Maybe.

>> [snorts]. >> But no, they they had very interesting. but also very sad lives like um I think. uh. Maggie married a skeptic. Not not a good move. Right. He died he. talked her out of doing spiritualism but. she went back after he died. Kate. married another spiritualist and she had. a huge career. touring the world as a spiritualist made. a lot of money. but but apparently lost it all and Leah. again was just kind of a I guess a bit.

of a villain in the story. Where's that movie man? I was wondering. the exact same thing. It's crazy it. hasn't been made 50 times already, you. know? Yeah, that would be that would be. pretty cool. I couldn't even find a good. documentary on it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> On them at least. I'm sure there are. plenty on that they're featured in but. And and give me those Fox sisters. >> No matter how you look at it too, whether you look at it from the. aspect of a believer who thinks like.

this is where it all started these two. sisters. And there's plenty of reasons. to believe if you're a credulous person. or. confiding as Mark Twain would put it. that you know, like the Andrew Jackson. Davis guy who who kind of started this. thing on his own supposedly wrote on. March 31st, 1848 that a spirit came to. him and said the work has begun. We just. started something over here and then. later found out about the Fox sisters.

Like, there's all sorts of stuff you can. believe. And so, it's interesting from. that respect, but also if you're just a. pure dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who do not. believe in any kind of afterlife or soul. or anything like that, it's equally. interesting in a totally different way. that this whole. like almost century-long movement. started from that, you know? >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> love it. I love this whole story. So, it's sweeping the nation at this. point by the 1850s and.

uh, we're going to go over some of the. different things that they would do, some of the methods that they would use. to communicate with the other side, uh, to fake communicate with the other side. >> Right. Uh, the first one is channeling, um, and. these would be trance mediums. So, this is like when you've seen in a movie. when someone. is just talking like I am in my regular. voice and I'm entering the trance and. I'm doing a lot of. a lot of showy things. uh, to kind of get people, you know, pretty pumped up, feel like they're.

spending their money well. You're. getting me pumped up, I'll tell you. that. And all of a sudden, you know, I. go into this other voice and I'm like a. small child. Uh, maybe the parents lost. a child or I'm a woman or I'm Sammy. Davis Jr. >> [laughter]. >> Hey babe, I just came back to say that. don't worry about me. This cat is doing. just fine. I came back to say I love. you. Pretty Pebbles in a major way. >> [laughter]. >> He invented rap. That's right.

So, uh, if you were a good talented. medium, that that meant that you were. uh, probably a pretty good actor. You. could probably do good voices. >> Mhm. Um, sometimes in the case of Cora Scott, who I know we've talked about her. before. Her name sounds familiar, but I have no. recollection of talking about her. Yeah, she sounds super familiar, but she was. uh, one of the top mediums, trans. mediums, because she was this very sort. of demure. uh attractive young lady and uh her. whole demeanor was about that. And then.

she was apparently a great actor cuz she. would go into this these big heavy gruff. voices and the gulf between who she was. and who she was imitating was so great. that everyone was just like, "Fantastic, Cora Scott. You're a genius." Well, also. yeah, she was like a little 12-year-old. girl when she started and supposedly she. would take the stage and confidently. discuss like physics and philosophy and. all that stuff. because there was some authoritative. spirit who had basically taken. possession of her.

Yeah, and uh I looked up her picture and. uh Kate Winslet, I think, is from my. casting couch is who I would uh throw in. that movie. Okay. Okay. Not not as the. 12-year-old. That would be weird unless. they do some sort of bad Irishman. de-aging, but she looked enough like her. and she's a she's a great actor, so. Um so that's so so channeling is what. you kind of think of where. somebody becomes possessed, the medium. becomes possessed, right? Yeah. There's also ones where like.

they're they're just saying like, "Oh, I. I can hear what they're saying, but you. can't because I'm they're speaking to me. through telepathy.". Right. Uh okay. That That reminds me of John. Edward. Remember him? Crossing Over with. John Edward. Yeah, I can't picture him. I think if I saw a picture of it, I. would totally remember, though. You. would. You would. What a weird time the. '90s were as far as stuff like that. goes. Although I think his show ran from. 2000 to 2004. Yeah, but that could sort of coincided. with the. uh.

Reverend Bob Dobbs and the televangelism. and all that good stuff. Yeah. Um it was a crazy time. So then there's. automatic writing was another big one, too. And all of this should sound. familiar again because the stuff just. has so permeated in the pop culture. It's crazy. But automatic writing is instead of the. the medium's voice take being uh taken. over the medium being possessed and and. speaking as the spirit. the the spirit took over their hand and. they would start writing. And so in just.

the same way Cora Scott would have a. completely different personality or a. different voice or different accent or. something like that. This like the. handwriting or the word usage or. anything like that would be different. than the medium's normal handwriting. This is automatic writing. And there was a. >> to decide if I could do that. Well, sometimes they would use their. non-dominant hand. So if you want to. change your handwriting, just do that to. start. >> I yeah, I can't. There's no way. And then there was a woman named Pearl.

Curran who wrote. at least 5,000 poems, novels, and plays. through automatic writing all channeling. the spirit of a 17th century woman from. England named Patience Worth. Nice. That's prolific. That's a lot of words. And then what about direct voice? Yeah, direct voice is when you are a. medium, you contact a spirit and the. spirit is so powerful.

that they just speak to you directly. Like the medium is just sitting there. with their mouth closed. >> Yeah. And this happened usually in a. dark room where they would have a. business partner just behind the. curtain. Obviously use talking or maybe. they were just doing a bad ventriloquist. kind of deal where they're. it's dark enough where you can't really. see their lips moving. >> Mhm. Throwing their voice. There was a woman named Leslie Flint who. was a medium. >> Oh, really? >> Mhm. He looked like the old man from Up.

Oh. Did it make you cry when you looked at. him? It did. [laughter]. My daughter just watched that. >> [gasps]. >> Here, have these balloons. >> [laughter]. >> So yeah, Leslie I don't actually loved. that name for a man, so I don't know I. don't know why I assumed, but he would. recreate famous people like Sammy Davis. Jr. Uh but wasn't very good at it. apparently, uh which is kind of funny. That makes us. all a little bit more ridiculous and.

fun. Well, I was reading a um obituary. about him that was written by somebody. who attended one of his or a couple of I. think of his seances, and they said. things like, you know, for a lot of. times you could tell it like what the. trickery was or whatever, but there were. other times where he would like be. speaking over the voice, which is tough. to do with ventriloquism, or one time he. was tested, he was made to hold colored. water in his mouth. while the spirit voice was speaking. And you're like, wow, you know, that's. pretty interesting. And then you just.

think, well, there's there's always an. explanation for it. Um. >> Yeah. And, you know, maybe there's. another person who who is a confederate. in the room, who knows. But, um it just. goes to show that even still, even. today, in this guy's obituary that was. written in the '90s, the 1990s, um that they were like, yeah, you you. know, he was largely considered a. trickster, a fraud, but they'll still. hedge and say, you know, but there were. a couple of things, and at the very. least it's unexplained, which is pretty.

interesting and neat, but that doesn't. necessarily mean that oh, no, there. really was a spirit that was talking in. the room thanks to him. Amazing. So, we had table turning. Uh this is at a you know, this isn't. like a theatrical performance. This is. in a small room. Everyone and this kind of think Ouija. board with this. It's the same sort of. thing, except the Ouija board would be. the actual table that you're sitting at. You would everyone would put their hands. on the table, and then the table would. move or tilt or something when you're. asking questions. So, it's inhabiting.

the furniture. Of course, what's going. on here is either like knee movements, or sometime they had uh these rings on. the medium's finger. that were slotted and could move the. table around without anyone noticing. Just another little parlor trick. basically. Yeah, or you know, the idea. that in you're moving the table yourself. like a Ouija board. Um, I can't remember. what it's called, but basically your. your body is is moving without your. brain being aware of it. And then.

there's also just the straight-up power. of suggestion and this applies to table. turning and a lot of other stuff. But if. you're saying like if you're the the. medium at a seance and you say the table. is rising, it's rising. People who are willing to believe, a lot. of people who went to seances wanted to. believe or already believed in this. stuff. Just the power of suggestion. could be like, oh, it is raising a. little bit, I can feel it, I can tell, kind of thing. Yeah, my favorite and. I bet your favorite, too, is.

ectoplasmic manifestations. It's a good. one. Yeah, it's pretty good. This is when you. would actually, as a spiritualist, produce something physical. Something. would manifest itself. Mhm. An actual. substance and it was they called it. ectoplasm. And they could pull it from their body. And it was just basically something that. they would make beforehand um. out of. whatever. I mean, they would make it out. of all kinds of things. There was one.

story about someone who was actually. gluing cut-out faces from a magazine. onto dolls. Yeah. And those were. ectoplasm spirits. But they would hide. these things sometimes like up their. butt or in their other body cavities. And they would pull these things out and. some of the pictures that you see. online, if you look up ectoplasm 1800s. seance, is just the pictures themselves. are. hysterical and frightening all at the. same time. Yeah, and especially now when. you look back and see them, you're like,

"Well, did anybody fall for that?" And. it's really important to keep in mind, one, they wanted to believe, but two, these seances would be carried out in. dark rooms to where you couldn't see. much at all. Um you just suddenly see some luminous, you know, cloth or something that you. were led to believe was ectoplasm, kind. of what looked like floating in the. middle of the table or something like. that. It's stuff that's that's really. easy to explain, but in a darkened room. that you been sitting in for 3 hours.

communicating with spirits, you might be a lot more prone to to buy. into it than under normal circumstances. Yeah, for sure. Uh maybe you're a little drunk. >> [laughter]. >> Right? Tipsy on schnapps. Uh levitation was another big one, nice. little uh party trick. Um I actually. could sort of do this for a little. while, the David Blaine method. I don't. know if you ever saw his. uh when he made himself levitate. It's. just kind of hopping up and down in air, right? No, it's it's.

>> [laughter]. >> You're thinking of trampolines. Oh. >> [laughter]. >> That's not the same thing? >> Pe- No, people can see those. Uh. no, it's all about the angle with the. David Blaine method um of getting them. to see you from the right angle to where. what you're really doing is you're. rising your body up with just one. like just your. first three toes on your right foot. Wow, that's. >> And you're and you're hiding that with. your other foot. So, it looks like.

you're just sort of levitating a few. inches off the ground, and then you act. like you're unsteady, and then you land. back down and go, "Oh, boy, that was a. good one. That was pretty powerful.". So, wait a minute. David Blaine can. raise his entire body weight with three. toes? Well, I mean, he's on his toes. I I I. just I mean, I could do it at the time, too. This was in the '90s. Man, that's. impressive. I don't think I've ever had the kind of. toe strength that that. >> [laughter]. >> is required to do that. You can raise. yourself up with one.

foot? In a seated position? No, no, no, you're standing. Oh, oh. Oh, oh, I got you. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what you're doing. is you're standing there and then you. raise yourself off the ground with just. the toes on your right foot, let's say, and you're keeping your left foot is. shielding that so you can't quite see. it. >> I've got it. I got it. >> creates if you got someone at the right. angle and I I got pretty good at it. My. roommate Justin was like, "You're. getting better, mate.". >> [laughter]. >> Or I'm getting drunker. Well, both of those things are. happening.

I thought you were talking about like, you know, like a fakir or something like. that where they're sitting um. cross-legged and they're levitating. I. was [laughter] like, "To do that with. just three toes? That in and of itself. is pretty impressive." But I don't know. who does that. All right, what are the. other There's another couple of things. they did, too. What are those? >> Spirit photography, pretty uh pretty. straightforward stuff where, you. [snorts] know, this is the very. beginnings of photography. So, people. didn't understand double exposures. unless you were a photographer. But if. you were, you could do all sorts of neat.

stuff like double expose something and. put a ghostly face in the background. over someone's shoulder. That's great. I. saw one I saw a spirit photograph where. it was a ghostly arm. It also could have been a genie coming. out of a bottle, one of the two. It. looked exactly the same. But it was like. >> it was on a table so they were like, "This is a spirit arm levitating table.". So, [laughter] they're like tying three. things together, table turning, levitating, and spirit photography.

Those are great. I think the spirit. photography just because they were. taking advantage of this new technology. people didn't even understand. >> Right. It's like the deepfake of the. time. And they were probably like, "Everybody, we got maybe 3 years.". >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, we better get prolific. And then. everyone's going to be like, "Oh, that's. just double exposure." Right. Um and then people like I said earlier, too, a lot of the new age stuff that's. tied into spiritualism today, like tarot. readings or. um.

oh, I don't know, astrology, that kind. of stuff. >> That had nothing to do with this because. spiritualists. all of it grew out of Christianity. So, there was some Christian basis to. all of the spiritualist practices. And. even though in a lot of ways it was. extraordinarily heretical, there was no. religious leader in charge of anything, there was no scripture or doctrine or. anything like that, it was still very. much tied into and born out of.

Christianity. So, stuff like occult. things would have would have been very. much frowned upon by spiritualists. >> Totally. Should we take another break? I think we. [snorts] should. All right, we'll take. another break and tell you about what. the Civil War had to do with all of this. right after this. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> All right. So, pre-Civil War in the United States, spiritualism was popular, it was. booming, but it was more like the kind of thing. that you did in a theater and you would. go see it as a curiosity or you might. just maybe even knew it was fake and it. was just entertainment. There wasn't a.

lot going on back then. Kind of like. looking at. penguins in a zoo today. Like you know. they're fake, but it's still fun to look. at. Right. Why not go pay a nickel to. see Madame whatever do her little do her. little erotic. cuz we'll get into that. These got a. little sexy at times, too. >> little. >> shimmy? That's part of the part of the. draw, the ghost shimmy. But, um. we need to all. talk about a couple of things here. The. The Civil War for sure, but um one of. the things that was going on, you know,

we've been talking about a lot about the. northeastern United States. And there's. a very good reason it didn't take hold. in the South. It's because uh. the way Christianity was and some might. argue still is in the South, didn't. leave a lot of room. Um the hierarchy didn't leave a lot of. room for other schools of thought, and. it was basically even though it wasn't. necessarily a cult, it was just shut. down kind of from the beginning in the. South. They're like, "We'll stick to our. voodoo, thank you very much.". >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, exactly.

>> Keep that spiritualism stuff out. Yeah, so it was just not a big thing in. the South. Um. the uh mediums at the time would uh move. off the stage sometimes and have the. these private seances. >> Oh, yeah. Uh sometimes they would get in. touch with a family member, but often. times it would just be kind of the same. in the state as the state show. They. would say like, "I'm going to get in. touch with Sammy Davis Jr." or whatever. the popular dead figure at the time was. Sure. Um but that was for like pre-Civil.

War. It was an entertainment, it was an. amusement. But when the Civil War came, and a lot of people died in the Civil. War, and that means that a lot of people. who survived the Civil War lost a loved. one, and these might have been people. who, you know, went off to fight and. just never came back. Never heard from. again, know nothing, have no idea where. they died, where they were buried. And. so, that kind of grief, you know, that. transcends any kind of time or place.

And. it created a lot of people, a large. population of people who were very. interested in getting in touch with. their dead relative. And it just so. happened that at the time, there was a. movement a foot that said, "Oh, well, this guy over here is actually really. good at getting in touch with the dead. Why don't you have a seance with him? You just have to, you know, pay him to. to do this work cuz it is a lot of work, whether you are a believer and a. skeptic. It's a lot of work to have been. a medium during this time.".

Um and so, they would be paid and they. would make a living like this. And so, these seances, these performances. uh were decreased in size, but vastly. increased in frequency. Yeah, a lot more spiritualists doing. smaller mediums for families um or. smaller seances for families. And the same thing happened after World. War I, as well. So, it's um. you know, it's kind of all fun and games. until it gets to this level. If it's a. big theater show, fine, whatever.

Uh go pay your money and get entertained. for an hour, but when you are taking. people's money who have lost loved ones. in battle, then that's when it gets kind. of really ugly, if you ask me. >> Right. And that's where I think a lot of. the genuine skeptics who who. beat this kind of stuff to a pulp, that's the place that they're coming. from. You know, not not not necessarily. that it's like an affront to science or. reason or common sense or anything like. that, but that there are a lot of people. who have.

parted um money from people who were. bereaved at the time. And you just You. don't take advantage of people who are. undergoing grief. That's a pretty shotty. thing to do. That's a life lesson right. there for everybody listening, [laughter] especially the youngsters. Not only that, not only taking their. money, but I imagine in a lot of cases, people made real-life decisions based on. things that would happen in these. seances, you know? Right. That's true. >> the family farm, like stuff like that. >> Oh, god, I hadn't thought about that.

And not only sell the family farm, sell. it to me, the medium. That's what your. dead brother wants you to do. For what? I'm Something's coming through. They're. saying pennies on the dollar. >> [laughter]. >> That's great. Oh, wait. That's the opposite of great. Yeah, that's terrible. So, by the end of the 20th century, uh. things started to decline a bit. Um one. was just pure greed. There were too many. of them out there. They were all trying. to outdo one another. They were trying. to. draw bigger crowds and more money and.

they were getting more outrageous by. doing so. And that meant just like anything when. you try and do that, the bigger you try. to force something to be, sometimes that. can lead to its kind of early death, I. guess. Yeah, go big or go home, but. eventually you're going to go home. anyway. That's the end of that saying. I love. it. Right. So, um part of it was that they they. were making more and more audacious. claims, but also there were more and. more scientists, like those that that um.

open-minded scientific approach had. become a lot more hardened toward um. spiritualism and mediums because so many. had been investigated and found to just. be total frauds. Most of the time, the outcome was this. the medium couldn't reproduce this. ectoplasm or get in touch with the. spirit when they were under controlled. conditions. Or. they they went for it and they were.

found to be a fraud. Like they the the. knuckle of their toe was found to be. wrapping on a stool or something like. that. Um and so as these reports kept. coming out more and more, these. scientific investigators were like, "I. don't think any of this is real." And. they would be interviewed in newspapers. and the papers would run these articles. And so over time, the just the general. public kind of turned away from. spiritualism as as hokum and bunk. But. the thing is is not everyone did. And. even still today, go ask Dan Aykroyd,

there is a a group of people who adhere. to spiritualism as a as a religion. No, for sure. Um and one of the big. reasons that it didn't completely go. away was. uh spiritualists were very smart in that. they would use influencers of the day. >> Mhm. in their act. They would seek out. these well-known people. Um they would tour the world sometimes, tour Europe, and do um. seances with like royal families of. various countries. Yeah. The newspapers.

write about this. Um. they would get a quote or or maybe. demand a quote from someone uh like. well-known and they would say, "All. right, I'll come do a seance, but you. got to give me a quote that I can use on. my my flyer or whatever." What's it. called? A pull quote? I don't know. >> the uh that that fallacy, the logical. fallacy, appeal to authority, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah, the appeal to authority. Sure. >> Okay. Yeah, which, you know, makes a lot of. sense. If people see, "Oh, well, they.

did a seance for the Prince of Monaco. Right. >> or or Sammy Davis Jr., then it's got to be good enough for me. It's not pseudoscience at all cuz why. would Sammy Davis Jr. believe in. pseudoscience?" Right. He's just a. Satanist. He didn't care about. pseudoscience. >> [laughter]. >> That's right. So, um. one of the other authorities that they. would appeal to, Chuck, was um. what this one There's an exposé written. in 1897 and by God, if I can't I can't.

find it anywhere in my tabs, but it was. basically uh. oh, Revelations of a Spirit Medium is. what it was called and it was written. anonymously by a medium, a huckster, a. fraud, and I'm pretty sure it was. published in 1897. and. >> [clears throat]. >> it is like 400 pages exposing all the. tips and all that stuff, all the tricks. But one of There's a glossary in of like. 19th century slang words among hoaxters. It's amazing. But one of them was the. top-heavy.

And [clears throat] that was a scientist. who was over-credentialed. They had all. these PhDs and everything like that. So, they were book smart, but they were. super gullible. And if you could get a. top-heavy to basically say like, "I. can't explain it. Science can't explain. it." That would go a very long way to. bolstering your career, you know? Yeah, even if you talk to 100 scientists. and one of them was a top-heavy who'd. said something valuable to you, that's. the only one you're you're the 10th. dentist of the nine out of 10 dentists.

>> Right, exactly. Exactly. And that's all. you need, especially if the other nine. dentists just keep their traps shut. because they have better things to do. But there were a bunch of people who. would not keep their traps shut. Um I. guess actually a one a legendary. top-heavy, even though he wasn't a. scientist credentialed or otherwise, was. um. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. >> [laughter]. >> I don't know what's wrong with me. Um I'm sorry. Sir Arthur Conan. >> [laughter]. >> Doyle?

>> [gasps]. >> By the way, before I forget, if if. there's not a band called the 10th. dentist out there, then I don't know. what to think anymore. >> It's a good one. Remember those Trident. commercials? I think it was four out of. five dentists. One of them was. >> Was it four out of five? He was bit on. the testicles by a squirrel before he. could pronounce how before he could. recommend Dentin or Trident or something. like that. Maybe it should be the fifth. It is four out of five. It is not nine. out of 10. Do you remember that though? No. It was a great great. >> What was the What was the cult? What was. it? We make holes in teeth.

>> [laughter]. >> Oh, yeah. >> Remember that? The cartoon? >> That was Crest. Oh, okay. Do you want to. hear Do you want to hear the pinnacle of. '80s marketing to kids? My. third grade, maybe fourth grade class. put on a play. about. toothpaste? >> Yes, and cavities sponsored by Crest. Yeah, they had a big push back then for. taking over the minds of American. children. >> Well, it worked. What's funny is is I.

now use. Aquafresh, the orange tube. Oh, man. If if there is a favorite toothpaste. that any boy in America has ever had, that is it and it's mine. That was from the '80s? No, it is now. But, I'm saying the Crest takeover of my. mind didn't work. >> Got you. And I'm an Aquafresh boy now. Is that the one with the tri-color? Yeah, which is another very appealing. part of it. >> [laughter]. >> Man, you'd buy it all, don't you? I do. And. >> So gullible. Yeah, I am a little.

gullible, but. >> an Arthur Conan Doyle. So, he, if you recognize his name, he. was the author of Sherlock Holmes, of. course. He was super into this. He. joined the Society for Psychic Research, which is an early skeptical/believer. society. Um, and he always he bought. into this. He was just convinced. Um, but on the other side of the equation. were skeptics who were not convinced, who basically didn't keep their mouths. shut. They were the other four who would. say like, "No, everybody actually this.

guy's wrong. My esteemed colleague has. has been taken." Um, but then the head. of those guys was Harry Houdini, amazingly enough. Yeah, Houdini, um, which makes it super. ironic that at the Magic Castle in Los. Angeles, they have have long had Harry. Houdini seance nights. Oh, yeah? Where. you can go into the Harry Houdini room. and do a seance. >> That's neat. Which is, you know, it's. all for fun, but. >> fake. It is kind of funny that he was.

very much against this stuff. Although, supposedly. if you go to the Magic Castle, they'll. tell you that he did, and he may have. really done this, is told his wife. before he died uh, that uh, "Hey, listen, if I was wrong, I'll come back. and I'll contact you and I'll you know.". You're right. And and he came back and. he said, "I've got good news and I've. got bad news. The good news is there is. a heaven. The bad news is you're. scheduled to pitch there tonight.". >> [laughter].

>> You remember that Scary Stories to Tell. in the Dark book? Yeah, where was that. with that was from? >> It was like two friends who played. baseball together. They had a pact like. Harry Houdini and his wife apparently. I. think that's a there's different. versions of that joke though. Man, the. illustrations in that book were just bar. none. Yeah, that was great stuff. And by the. way, we should give a big. uh rest in peace to Mr. Mort Drucker who. passed away Oh, yeah. uh couple of weeks. ago in real time, but that was that was. a big one. We talk about Mad Magazine a.

lot and Mort Drucker was my. number one with a bullet favorite artist. and. >> Agreed. he he passed on and he was one. of the greats. He definitely shaped. my childhood in a very large way. Yeah, big time. >> With his drawings. RIP sir. Yeah. Um nice guy. >> from you soon. Right. He's like, "You guys are pitching. tonight.". >> [laughter]. >> Oh, no, both of us? So So Harry Houdini. he's like, "Yeah, Josh is going to flub. it and Chuck's going to have to be. brought in for the save.".

>> [laughter]. >> So Harry Houdini. Harry Houdini created this long-standing. tradition of stage magicians. um. exposing the fraud of spiritualism. basically. >> Yeah, cuz they were they're like they're. stealing our tricks. Yeah, and it's. pretty cool. Like he would incorporate. into his stage shows a lot of these. things that spiritualists were doing to. show how they did it. Uh and he was. relentless at it. Yeah, he was very relentless. But it was. very cool and the fact that it's still.

going on today, um. Richard Wiseman who's come up a few. times, he was in the Sheldrake episode, he was in the ghosts episode, and I I we. somehow misconstrued his research in the. ghost episode to suggest that he had. proven ghosts exist. I don't remember. exactly the details of it. But we got. that one wrong. But in this case, he has. recreated seances from the 19th century. and has shown how willing people are to. totally misreport the events that went.

on in the seance to say that yes, you. know, the table did levitate or um all. the stuff that he's studying under these. controlled conditions and he's basically. shown. um not [clears throat] just. that the the the medium himself or more. often herself, as we'll see, um was. engaging in fraud, but also that the. audience was um had a willing suspension. of disbelief and were part of this, too, by saying like, I felt the phantom arm. tap me on the shoulder. The medium.

didn't have anything to do with that. That was just something that kind of. came out of the environment that was. produced in the seance, you know? Yeah, pretty interesting. It is pretty. interesting. So, we'll finish up here. with this um I thought this was very. interesting, actually. Uh the the social Olympic implications. of this, um most of the not all, but a. lot of these spiritualists were women in. the 19th century. Um for some practical reasons, they. could wear these long dresses that could. hide uh talented toe knuckles.

Um they would not, because of the time, they wouldn't get like searched too. closely, obviously, cuz you wouldn't do. that. Right. If you were a scientist. trying to examine uh whether or not a. spiritualist was real or not. And that led to There were men, for. sure, but that led to this. kind of interesting side note. Um one is. that women could make their own money, and so it's easy to poopoo something. like this, but I'm sure those Fox. sisters made a lot more dough than they.

ever could have as uh. you know, doing anything uh else offered and. available to them at the time. >> Sure. So, that's a good thing. They gave. them some agency, but. these uh it was no coincidence that. sometimes the voice from the other side. would champion sort of progressive views. because this turned out to be a chance. to. sort of reshape policy in a way. if you were a woman and you were a. spiritualist it would be very easy to. say. you know, they're saying that that women.

should have more rights. And if not, they will come back and. haunt you all. Right. And that kind of. ended up happening in some ways. Yeah, there was a huge connection between. spiritualism and spiritualist movement. and abolitionism, the women's suffrage. movement, the women's temperance. movement, a lot of these progressive movements, workers' rights. And the you know, if. you were an abolitionist and you didn't. believe in this kind of thing, you might. be like, I'm not really happy about. that. But at the same time, it it kind.

of whipped up this fervor in that some. people would like their spirits that. that that was that were being channeled. by the medium were saying things like. you guys better get on the train of. abolitionism, you better get rid of. slavery. And it actually did, especially. in these theatrical settings, have a a. widespread influence on getting the. message out there um through the spirit. communication, weirdly enough. Yeah, it's almost like one could say. anything at all at something like, oh, I.

don't know, a campaign rally and people. would believe it if they were an ardent. enough believer in the speaker. Exactly, especially if they'd attached their ego. to you and your success. Very strange. So, um I just want to give. two shout-outs. One to the probably the. greatest ghost movie. that involves seances ever. Ghost? No. Whoopi Goldberg? No. All right.

The Others. With Nicole Kidman. >> yeah, that was good. It was so good. Don't spoil it. The greatest short story. involving seances in the spiritualist. movement written by arguably the. greatest American writer of all time, Joyce Carol Oates. It's called. Night-Side. It's a short story. It's the. same title as a collection of her short. stories from the '70s. I think 1977. Um. Night-Side, look it up and thank me. later. It's seriously just bone-chilling.

how good it is. I wonder if we could. uh. get in touch with her and read that for. our Halloween episode this year. >> to her once kind of crassly um and never. heard anything back even though she's on. Twitter. I know she saw that tweet. >> Hey @JoyceCarolOates, you think you're. so cool? Right. [laughter]. Um I would love to read that one. There's another one, too. There's a. She's probably not just the greatest. American writer but the greatest. American horror writer, too. She's. great. She's so wonderful. I would read.

any of her stories. So, if you out there. know Joyce Carol Oates or in contact. with her uh and/or her publisher, please, we would love to read in our. ad-free episode one of her short stories. for Halloween. That's right. So, I think she might like that aspect. Okay. Oh, one last thing, Chuck. Uh there's a. place called Lily Dale in New York. appropriately enough, which is basically. a spiritualist community where you can.

go. basically be among spiritualists as a. religion. today. Wonderful. Uh since I said today, it's time [music] for listener mail. I'm going to call this uh. we haven't gotten uh emails in 2 weeks. from people because something's wrong. with our email server. >> Yeah. So, it's on bedays again. You're. going to get a couple on bedays, I. think. >> All right. Uh hey guys, listening to your recent. episode on bedays reminded me of a funny.

story I thought you might like. 2004 my. family bought a new house in the suburbs. of Detroit. It was designed and built by. an exceptionally pragmatic, efficient, yet lacking in aesthetic appreciation. engineer. To our surprise and my. husband's delight, as he is from Spain, the master bathroom included a separate. bidet unit. Now remember, this is 2004. and people were not as familiar in this. country. Uh most people that visited our. home had no idea what it was. >> [music]. >> and we also made the decision to not. give advance notice when they went to.

the bathroom. Invariably people would. emerge from the bathroom trip either a. little wet or with an embarrassed look. on their face as they confessed having. explored the contraption and released a. stream of water onto themselves and. [snorts] into our bathroom. It was. always good for a laugh. >> [laughter]. >> Uh. I sure appreciate you guys. Uh when we. moved from Michigan to the South uh to. the South Carolina. What? Well, she was she once missed. >> South Carolina because that would. explain that last bit. No, I I thought. it was she meant the South and I didn't.

see on the next line it said Carolina, so that was just me being picky. >> Oh, oh, okay. Uh your voice has accompanied us as we. made many 12-hour trips back and forth. Uh we enjoyed the knowledge and the. tangents, even the tangents. Uh and now you continue to soothe and. educate me as I go on my 4 to 5-mile. recreational walks during [music] the uh. pandemic quarantine and temporary, hopefully, furlough. Uh and that is from Michelle Salcedo. Nice. Thanks a lot, Michelle. We're glad. to know that you're doing okay there,

hanging out, waiting for things to get. back to normal. In the South Carolina. That's right, Chuck. Um. and uh as it will eventually go back to. normal. Um and in the meantime, if you. want [music] to get in touch with us. like Michelle did, to let us know some. silly story about a bidet or what have. you, uh you can get in touch with us. Send us an email to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts [music].

my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio. app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.