Selects: How Mindfulness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

hi everybody since self-improvement is. kind of in the air this time of year I. thought I would choose our 2022 episode. on mindfulness we cover its Origins how. it became a thing in the west and the. upsides and yes drawbacks I hope it. changes your life for the better. enjoy welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart Radio.

hey and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh. and there's Chuck and Jerry's here is. and this is stuff you should. know. is this is fullon stuff you should know. Charles I remember that point I feel. like it was. about 10 8 to 10 years ago where. everyone was just saying ish on the end. of things instead of saying like you.

know finding the real word that they. were looking for so so like an. approximation of the word or or of the. thing they were describing so like I'm. I'm. 40ish no not even that like when there's. like a real word that could be used and. they would just throw ish on another. word I don't know what you're talking. about no yeah it was it was a thing it. swept the nation when was. it or maybe I'm thinking of the Macarena. that that's what you're thinking of okay. all right man it really did sweep the.

nation remember that who let the dogs. out it was like a one did let the dogs. out did they ever find that out no I. think it was a rhetorical question ish. it's the kind of rhetorical question you. could ask yourself Chuck while you're. meditating yeah but first thanks thanks. but I'm going to step all over the segue. because because before we get started. Chuck I want to do if you'll allow me. another shout out for my little niece. Mila's movie Big Time movie called no.

exit that's coming out as far as when. this episode drops tomorrow so February. 25th 2022 no matter when you hear this. just immediately go on to Hulu subscribe. if you haven't yet and check out my. niece Mila in no exit cuz she is sent me. the trailer amazing what' you think it. looks like a taught Thriller MH uh she. looks fantastic from what you can tell. from a trailer I know unless you just. saved all the bad parts for the movie I. don't think they did I was an interview.

with the director and he was saying like. she was she was doing such an amazing. job of being terrified and freaked out. and everything that like after in. between takes like the other cast. members would be like are you okay and. she'd be like yeah why are you okay and. you know I'm acting right yeah exactly. she's like uh it's acting you like John. love it said yeah so on Hulu no exit. February 25th my niece MAA just kills it. there you go can't wait thanks again for. that Chuck so let's get started thank.

you for not passing judgment on that. either. way uh you're re. segueing because we're talking about. because passing judgment means I'm not. being mindful because a big part of. mindfulness huge is to not judge yeah so. that's like uh this is one of those ones. you know those episodes where we just. start talking about the thing without. defining it um this is not going to be. one of those episodes because I think it. would be kind of rough otherwise you. know.

yeah and I guess if you're going to. Define mindfulness uh you need to kind. of go back in time uh I mean I guess we. could hop in the Wayback machine we. haven't done that in a while yeah it's. been a while let's pull the old cover. off it's quite Dusty in here it and a. little bit of Milo little mildew there's. some old crystals boxes those are yours. remember you had them accidentally. delivered to your house right and then. we went back to the old west to. celebrate.

you're thinking of um Back to the Future. three oh right right right I called Mary. steam. buron meaning I get to play her not date. her or anything oh I would date Mary. Steen buron I always had a big crush on. her isn't that um oh really that's Ted. Danson's old squeeze right it's his. current squeeze I'm not goingon to fight. him for are they still together yeah I. think so gosh they've been together for. a while yeah good couple okay great good. stuff so uh who knew we were going to be.

talking about Ted dancing at the. beginning of mindfulness not me I could. have guessed Richard gear but Ted. dancing's a big. surprise if we get in the way back. machine and go back uh in time to sort. of uh the beginning of Buddhism you'd. have to look at the the the language pi. and the word Sati p is p a uh l i Sati. is s a TI there're a lot of different. words for mindfulness but the one that. we kind of identify with it's kind of.

been used most from ply which is a uh a. middle Indo Aran lurgical language from. the early branches of Buddhism yeah a. lot to take in the reason that that. Paulie is so important is because they. say that it was the language of the. Buddha and at the very least it was the. first language that the Buddha's Words. which have been passed down orally um. were written down in so it's like legit. old school Buddhist thinking and teach. teachings and one of the basic parts of.

that is like you said Sati which is has. been translated to. mindfulness but but it was translated by. a British colonial administrator wasn't. it that's right and it kind of uh more. accurately is translated as memory of. the present which I think is a really. kind of a cool way to look at. mindfulness yeah absolutely it really. kind of reveals what what what's going. on especially once you kind of learn a. little more about it you're like that. actually works about as perfectly as as. can be but it got it got translated um.

into the word mindfulness Sati into. mindfulness by a a British colonial. administrator in Salon which is now Sri. Lanka back in the 1880s so it was some. British guy who said Sati means. mindfulness and actually kind of gave it. to us today although there was a long. period where it had been forgotten but I. think you can't really talk about. mindfulness even though it's changed so. dramatically especially in the last. decade or so without kind of describing.

what it it was originally meant to. describe or what it still describes if. you're a practicing Buddhist um and that. is that like you are not only like. paying attention to the moment and um uh. like like experiencing this moment. without letting your thoughts wander to. the past or the future or anything like. that but that whatever you're. experiencing in the moment no matter. what it is you're experiencing with. equinity which means that you're not. passing judgment on it as good or bad or.

anything else it just is and it sounds. easy to describe but if you've ever. tried it it's one of the hardest things. a human being can ever set out to do. yeah I mean I think it's very very. natural for a human. to. uh seek out and contemplate and think. about the things that feel good and. please them and to try and stuff down. and get rid of and avoid things that. either hurt literally hurt or.

emotionally hurt or things that are. painful or unpleasant and boy a that is. a tough thing to overcome my friend uh. just the condition of Being Human makes. that very difficult but yeah and you. just nailed it on the head not once but. twice Chuck when you said that it's a. very Human Condition and part of Sati. the point of Sati as far as like. Buddhists are concerned is that it's a. step that you take on the path to. Enlightenment to free yourself from the.

cycle of like life and death and rebirth. and to become like a truly enlightened. being that's freed from all of that and. so you have to free yourself from that. Human Condition and a big part of that. is to free yourself from yearning from. wanting because yearning and wanting or. being repelled by something and wanting. to get away from it they're two sides of. the same coin as far as Sati is. concerned which is um you are wishing. that something is different or was. different than it actually is and that's.

the basis of suffering and suffering is. the thing that keeps you in that cycle. of life and death and rebirth so. meditating uh to become Mindful and. non-judgmental about your present. experience is one step toward re. relieving yourself of suffering and then. freeing yourself from that shackle of. being born and reborn and reborn again. well you my friend have just spoken. about the noble truths in part M uh. because craving is the cause of. suffering is the the second Noble Truth.

and to cease that craving uh will bring. about the ceasing of that suffering. which is the third Noble Truth and. basically experiencing the moment. without and everything about the moment. without judgment is sort of the the goal. and you know for modern you know we're. going to talk a lot about sort of the. beginnings of mindfulness and kind of. How It's become um kind of a hip thing. to do here in the United States uh. starting in about the 1970s and on and.

especially today yeah but uh we're we're. kind of talking in American modern terms. about stress and. de-stressing and the Buddhists have a. term for that which is Dua du k k h a uh. and that is you know again. to avoid or destroy something that we. don't like and what we usually don't. like is something that's going to put a. stress on us right exactly and they're. saying like dude this is part of the. point of life I'm reading this really.

amazing book by tikn Han right now I'm. rereading it actually it's one of those. ones you just kind of go back and reread. very like easy slim volume it's called. No mud no Lotus and it basically says. like without suffering you can't have. happiness and vice versa pretty pretty. basic stuff but like he really gets into. explaining how to confront suffering and. understand that it's just part of life. and that's a huge part of the Buddhist. approach to mindfulness it's not to get.

away from suffering it's to recognize it. as it is and also simultaneously not. make a bigger deal out of it than it is. because suffering is enough it's bad. enough as it is but another part of the. human condition is to make it way worse. by anticipating it worrying about it um. like focusing on it after it happens. there's a lot of stuff we do to our own. suffering that explodes it and part of. mindfulness training is to is to stop. doing that as well too you ain't hidden.

uh and the lack of judgment is a big big. part of all of this uh and we're going. to talk quite a bit here and there about. John kabat Zen MH who is uh I was say. easy Far and Away the sort of leader of. the modern American uh mindfulness. movement in a lot of different ways and. we'll get to him in more detail later. but he says that awareness that arises. through paying attention on purpose and. that's another big part of it it's it's. a very purposeful practice Yeah uh but. not meditation which we'll get to that. as well because meditation is a true.

physical practice that you and mental. practice whereas mindfulness is more of. a state of being that you're trying to. get to right uh but he says on purpose. in the present moment and not. non-judgmentally they always have to. kind of hammer home the lack of judgment. being a key part right exactly um and. he's he's a proponent and kind of one of. the the founders of what you can refer. to is secular mindfulness which is this. current incarnation of mindfulness. that's sweeping the West it's like you. said hip that's been kind of like.

removed deliberately as we'll see. removed from its Buddhist roots and. Buddhist context to make it more. palatable and scientific seeming yeah. secular secular strip it of all the. religion and maybe we can sell it to. Americans exactly in an app but the yeah. um the upshot of all this though Chuck. is that no matter who you are where. you're coming from if you're talking. about mindfulness you're talking about. paying attention to the present moment. and doing the best you can at not.

judging anything that's going on in in. that present experience and just taking. it on its face value and engaging in it. fully that's mindfulness in a nutshell. yeah and it's not anything that the. Buddhists um had a corner on they just. uh probably did it better because all. different kinds of religions throughout. Antiquity had you know chanting or some. kind of mindfulness practice maybe. prayers or through songs or dance uh you. know that that kind of thing has been.

around as long as people have been. practicing religion so the Buddhist did. not invent it but I think they got it. fairly right so um let's talk a little. more about how we got here today um. historically speaking uh after a break. what do you think about that it sounds. great I'm going to breathe in the. meantime. [Music].

hey let me teach you something I've been. using that tikn Han taught me not. personally but through his writing in a. book that was published that I purchased. with money smash your hand with a hammer. yeah he said try to focus on anything. else chump right uh there's a bunch of.

different mantras you can say and I'm. not even sure that's the right word but. um one that I keep using is and it's. just striking what taking a breath and. deliberately focusing on that breath. just breathing in once and breathing out. once can do to like just suck you right. out of wherever your mind is um in the. past or the future it's it's really. striking what how it can do that but um. his was um it's a take breathing in mhm. I know Noti that I'm alive and breathing.

out I'm happy to be alive and just doing. it once like immediately brings me back. into the present moment and it's really. cool I like it it's all very new for me. but I think it's uh it's pretty cool. yeah there's a lot of value there um and. you know you can like practice something. like this and those breathing techniques. it's not exclusive to mindfulness or. meditation or Buddhism uh I you know. that's a great technique if you have. kids uh I found that you know if if my.

daughter is having a bad time just kind. of get her to slow down and take a. couple of good deep breaths always a. good thing to do yeah uh and Emily who. uh you know is someone who has a lot of. anxieties in her life as a struggling. small business owner we will do this. thing where we have uh hug breathing. where I will go up to her and we will. have a good tight be hug Embrace and. we'll breathe in together and it sort of. like doubles the power of it wow that's.

neat Chuck is that your own did you come. up with that yeah I mean I'm sure I mean. I didn't get it from anywhere but I'm. sure I didn't invent that it sounds like. a a viking. mindfulness like uh Hell's Angels sure. yeah it's the hell Angels technique you. came up with you can call it whatever. you want it's your invention it's a good. one uh yeah there's something about. breathing together that close physically. it's uh it's pretty powerful so if you. if you went back um a few hundred years. couple hundred years even and you spoke.

to any Buddhist around the world and. said hey how often do you do mindfulness. meditation they would look at you like. they had no idea what you were talking. about and if you said you know Sati. they'd say oh that's not for us that's. for like the monks and the nuns up in. the the caves in the mountains like we. don't do that kind of stuff we're we're. super Buddhists we care about morality. and we worship local deities and all. that stuff but that's that's kind of. advanced that's more than than the. average Bo Buddhist does and it wasn't.

until I think the late 19th century in. Burma that that was finally kind of. broken up and and meditation and. mindfulness together were kind of. introduced for the first time to like. lay Buddhists like just the normal. everyday average Buddhist living their. life yeah this is pretty cool like I. know we love it when we can kind of. pinpoint when things happen or when. things change uh and this is one of them. on November 28th in. 1885 uh this is when the British. Imperial Army uh conquered Burma and.

said King uh we're going to mispronounce. some of these Thal maybe I think that's. right you're out of here and that King. was promoting mindfulness and promoting. Buddhist institutions throughout the. nation the Brits of course said nah. we're not going to really do that so it. fell to the lay people to get organized. uh to find new places to meet uh to find. their own you know Gathering Grounds and. a lot of times these were monasteries.

and it would go through monks but they. would it basically went to them to kind. of figure it out because it wasn't I. don't want to say state sponsored but it. kind of state sponsored yeah or state. supported or something like that yeah. yeah but so and so rather than being. like Oh well I don't know who I guess. we're not Buddhists anymore they they. took it by the horns and like they did. something with it but one of the. outcroppings of that was that like these. monks who used to just go meditate out. in the like in the mountains or the. hills or in the the woods were now now.

had audiences of like everyday people. who were practicing Buddhist that they. were teaching this stuff to and it was. um it was one of these guys uh Ley sadow. who uh was a Buddhist monk who said you. know what this isn't just for us this is. for everybody yeah and uh closely in uh. lady Sayad DA's foot footsteps came. mingan sea sa y a w say ya I think. that's right and that he that monk was. the first one to actually teach um.

mindfulness and meditation to regular. people I think around. 1911 yeah I mean it's cool stuff like I. love the idea that Ley uh sadal kind of. put forth which was you don't have to go. to a monastery even like we've set these. up for you and you can you don't have to. retreat to a cave you don't have to you. don't even have to go into a deep. meditative state or anything like just. momentary bits of mindfulness are very. helpful right uh and that's a good way. to reach regular lay people and I think.

through practice is when uh SEL came. along and said hey that all sounds great. and buddy I'm going to teach it right so. the the the people in what is now may. myamar are the ones who um kind of broke. out broke mindfulness and meditation out. of its its little Slumber sure cage or. something like that all right and. democratized it a little bit but it was. um as far as the people in the West are. concerned it was the Japanese and their.

development of Zen Buddhism that we have. to thank because this is you can pretty. much trace a direct line between um the. mindfulness and the meditation and the. approach to Buddhism in the west today. back to the 20th century Japan and. specifically a guy named da setsu tearo. DT Suzuki so DT Suzuki was kind of a um. what's called a Buddha modernist thinker.

who said um there's different things we. can do with this but let's approach this. a little more rationally a little less. dogmatically and open it up to people. like our friends in what's soon to be me. and Mar and um not only that let's let's. start um relating to the West a little. more and DT Suzuki actually kind of. carried this message this idea of Zen. Buddhism with him over to America and. Europe and it just started to catch on. like. wildfire yeah I think it's really. interesting too that it was another AC.

of war that led to you know that helped. give rise to someone like Suzuki uh just. like when the Brits over through Burma. when the US Navy attacked Tokyo Harbor. in. 1853 uh there was you know basically. Japan was like you know we got to we got. to start relating to the West a little. bit more and sort of modernize and this. was known as the Meiji restoration and. part of that was uh saying hey Shinto is. going to be our religion our main. religion and not Buddhism which led the.

Buddhist to say hey maybe we should. modernize our religion as well to tr you. know so we don't get left by the wayside. and that gave rise to someone like DT. Suzuki right so it was from that. modernization that um Buddhist modernism. came about and it's basically what you. would recognize as Buddhism today like. very thoughtful very um uh interior. dwelling um the idea that the universe. is all connected all these were like. Buddhist thoughts before but it was it.

was Buddhism allowing itself to be. influenced by modernism and by other. groups like The Romantics and the. transcendentalists right so it they they. jumped on it big time it was pretty it. was like a Confluence of perfect timing. as far as coming to the United States. and like the counterculture ready for. this but in a weird way it was like the. United States unbeknownst to the. counterculture beats and then later the. hippies um that their predecessors like. the transcendentalists had.

pre-inflation and taking acid and um you. know and meditating and we're just open. to the ideas of other cultures of. becoming like more in tune with the. universe it was they were just waiting. for it and it came to them in the and in. the briefcase I guess of DT Suzuki um. and it just kind of took off from there. so so the idea everything we understand.

about mindfulness and meditation you can. trace back to like DT Suzuki and those. beats absolutely and there were three. people in particular uh in the 70s and. 60s and 70s practicing this Joseph. Goldstein Jack cornfield and Sharon. salsburg who were not together but they. studied separately uh meditation and. Burma and then the mid 70s founded the. Insight Meditation Society in. Massachusetts which became sort of the. center. of the uh.

vipasana meditation movement here in the. United States and they're they're still. around they're still doing their thing. right so um it was from that same group. there was actually a time where um John. kabat zin the guy we mentioned earlier Z. by the way not Zen that would be too far. on the. nose oh wait what if his name was. spelled. Zen oh I got you don't boy I was not.

paying to the uh the current experience. very well I'm sorry oh that's okay. that'd be like a boxer being named boxer. uh yeah it would be spelled differently. right I was for some reason I was going. more toward the um Cabernet Zin play on. well because that eye is in there yeah. so he's known as The Godfather of modern. mindfulness according to the guardian at. least which is a pretty legit newspaper. um um and by the way thank you also to.

Olivia for helping us out with this one. Chuck this was a tough one to Wrangle. she did a great job she did she did um. but John cat Zin was among those people. Jack cornfield great name uh Sharon. salsburg and J Joseph Goldstein he. actually taught at their um Insight. Meditation society and he was a a. big-time practitioner of Zen Buddhism. and he had he was on like a um I guess a. Meditation Retreat and he had a bit of. insight I guess an epiphany is probably. what you call it that he was meant to.

help apply Buddhist techniques to help. people who are in pain he had either a. microbiology or molecular biology degree. and he ended up applying it to medicine. and figuring out how to join Buddhist. practices and medicine to help people in. the 70s and it really started to take. off from there yeah I mean he sort of. had the same idea as previous uh. cultures which was hey if we want to uh.

and not sell for money but if we want to. popularize this we should get a little. bit away from the religion part the sort. of hippie dippy new Agy part and he. really wanted to start talking in. concrete terms about things that. everyone worried about which was stress. and like if you want to make your life. less stressful here's here's a way to do. it and more on mindfulness and less on. meditation which was still a tough cell. to Main stream America and still is. today I think yeah but it's gotten less.

and less I feel like it he finally. overcame the the threshold that was you. know keeping it back in the last like 5. 10 years and achieved what he was. looking for I mean think about. mindfulness is everywhere today and it. is almost totally divorced from any kind. of religious connotations it seems like. a neuroscience tool more than anything. the way that it's treated in the West. and that was his goal he he was trying.

to to get it to the most people possible. uh study it scientifically and then. apply it to help people and specifically. again he was initially looking at how it. can help people with uh pain um and he. came up with mindfulness-based stress. reduction. mbsr which is still very much in use. today and then there was an offshoot too. Chuck U mindfulness-based cognitive. therapy and um that's that takes CBT.

which is a proven type of um Talk. therapy um used extensively in. Psychology and and applies John kabat. zin's approach to mindfulness to it. right yeah and I think one of the big. tenants here is to interrupt automatic. thoughts right and the automatic. thoughts that can lead to an automatic. Behavior MH so the automatic thought. might just be your propensity to feel. that Str stress and reach for a drink.

immediately MH and not even think like. oh boy I need a drink cuz I'm stressed. out and that'll help out right it. becomes this automatic thing and he was. all about and the practice of. mindfulness is all about disruption and. disrupting that flow uh without judgment. yeah because one of the big things in. cognitive behavioral therapy is that you. have a thought your thought leads to a. feeling and your feeling leads to a. behavior and often times it's like you. said it's very destructive and you don't. even realize it's going on um until your.

life is kind of falling apart or it's. certainly not as good as it could be and. it doesn't even have to be a drink it. could be a dut it could be yelling at at. a cashier at a um you know a grocery. store like all sorts of different things. and you are totally out of control of it. the idea behind this mindfulness adding. mindfulness to cognitive behavioral. therapy is that you are training. yourself to detach yourself from all. thoughts and emotions so you can. evaluate them clearly so that none of.

them can jump out of nowhere pounce on. you and the next thing you know you've. eaten a dozen donuts and had six. scotches and you have no idea why you do. have the idea why and you probably. haven't gotten to that point because. you've stopped the whole process by. recognizing it the moment it began. ideally theoretically on paper that's. the the purpose of using mindfulness to. help especially with with mental health. yeah there's um a journalist named. Robert Wright and he kind of put it in a.

way that I kind of like which was to. think of your thoughts and emotions as. transient so it's not like that kind of. goes back to the no judgment thing you. can have these bad feelings and bad. emotions and bad Tendencies but if you. allow if you allow them to just flow. through you they become transient right. they don't stick around uh the same sort. of ideas that you you can't um why worry. about things that you can't control. right but not in. a uh an office poster kind of way you.

know what I mean sure it runs a bit. deeper than that uh it's not like a. polyana thing no and as a matter of fact. like if you want to trace it all the way. back to its original Buddhist Roots it's. that like we have very little if any. control over life and that recognizing. that will free us from all of our. desires and the idea that like we have. to have things and we want to hang on to. it like it just lets you let things flow.

by and you can enjoy them and experience. them as they come rather than hoping for. the next one needing the next donut um. or fearing the next loss uh you you just. experience life as it comes that's kind. of the point of that of of understanding. that everything is transient and. impermanent including your own your own. life like you're going to die one day. there's ultimately the big like you know. like Bingo number. yeah like that's ultimately what it's.

leading to is you're going to die you're. you yourself are impermanent and so. understanding that through getting there. through meditation daily meditative. practice um is is kind of the goal yeah. and it's interesting they found that. it's um even though something like mbsr. is more rooted in that sort of. neuroscienc thing and not uh. spirituality or religion they found it. sort of a chicken in the egg deal where. once you do participate in in BSR you.

may become more spiritual as a result. even though you weren't going in but I. think the reason why is because even if. these people don't know it even if. they're at a corporate mindfulness. Retreat they're engaging in a deeply. spiritual practice Yeah that that it's. they're kind of doing it wrong as we'll. see but there's still it's still you. know part of this very long established. tradition that's that actually has like. legs it's not it's not mumbo jumbo like. it actually has a pronounced effect on.

on the human brain the human psyche the. Outlook that we have on life and so. depending on the context you're doing it. and it can be very useful it can be. harmful or it can be totally useless in. some cases too but it is a spiritual act. so it makes sense that it would make you. more interested in. spirituality well I say we take our. second break if that's good okay and uh. because we're stuff you should know we. have to talk about whether whether or. not this works and if there have been.

studies that tell us one way or the. other so we'll get into that right after. [Music]. this all all right it's fun to sit. around and talk about mindfulness so fun.

and to just sort of Zin out and lose. ourselves become one with each other. through these headphones yeah man you. sound like Rory Cochran and daon. Confused new man what was his name uh. Slater was he Slater hey Slater you. happy give me drugs man yeah Slater. you're right I don't know get some from. your mother man. it's funny I've seen him in he's been in.

a bunch of stuff since then and it's. it's always impossible to see him as. anyone other than Slater I mean have you. he was on CSI Miami I think for years. and years and years and you're just. waiting for him to whip out a doie yes. and he's all clean cut and everything. and you still can't not see it I totally. agree with you he's not fooling. anybody uh all right so does this stuff. work there have been plenty of studies. of course and there is a lot of evidence. that uh mindfulness programs can help. people through emotional problems.

through mental problems uh they've done. controlled Trials of mbsr programs and. clinical settings and non-clinical. settings and they generally found that. they do and this is self-reported stuff. obviously but they reduce self-reported. anxiety depression uh and stress and. increase well-being as opposed to people. who got no treatment at all yeah so yes. it I mean it does seem to be effective. um there's uh also so especially with. self-reporting chu that seems to be like.

the big one that if you if you look at. studies where they're using. self-reporting like it has the most. pronounced effect um objective tests. there does seem to register some sort of. effect like on the objective experience. of say like pain or something like that. but social psychology has jumped all. over this it's like we're going to study. this um and there was this one study. from. 2021 uh which I have to give a hat tip. to Yumi because she turned this one up. um but it it was a study of white people.

who some of whom received mindfulness. training and a control group who. received sham mindfulness training which. is hilarious and the effect that it had. on their willingness to help black. people that they saw who they saw in. need um and not like in need like you. know homeless or something like that. like um they would be they would be. subjected to a test unwittingly where. they'd be in a room and like a black. person would come in and like drop their.

papers and their willingness to help. that person pick up the papers or if a. black person entered the room and they. were on crutches their willingness to. give up their seat and apparently PE. black people tend to help black people. more white people tend to help white. people more Hispanic people tend to help. Hispanic people more they people help. their ingroup more but this mindfulness. group um actually kind of crossed lines. way more than than was expected right. yeah I mean I think that kind of says it. all you you do help your in group more.

but the people that received the real. mindfulness training were definitely Far. and Away more willing to step outside. their in group and help someone of. another race that's you know there's. something to be said for that yeah and I. mean it was significant three times more. is really significant statistically. speaking for a study and it seems like. it was a pretty good study like the fact. that they had sham mindfulness training. ruled out the possibility that the group. that got mind fness training was. behaving a certain way CU they they.

thought like that's what was going to be. the result of it almost like a placebo. effect so the group that received sham. training thought they were getting. mindfulness training that like they. still that's what I want to know I would. love to know what sham mindfulness TR. like breathe in really concentrate on. all the anger really feel. it they or they'd let him in like uh. Lama breathing where there like like. don't think that's right that doesn't. feel right he starting to float away.

that's really funny and shout out to Cal. State San Marcos uh and Professor Daniel. Barry and I guess Yumi for all that yeah. sure the the trifecta yeah sure what. what's Cal State s. marcos's mascot oh geeez I'm gonna bet $. Five Dollar on the. Lobos that sounds good okay let's go. with that all right Los Lobos even yeah. that's the the bandless Lobos is. right and not coincidentally their.

halftime entertainment as. well um but we do need to say that uh. there's another school of thought and. it's not a a competing school of thought. it's just a hey be aware that it it's. not always great for everyone uh they. there's this one article you sent about. people that experience uh trauma in. their lives that have buried it and it. sits in their body is unconscious trauma. that mindfulness practices and. meditation practices can dredge that.

stuff up yeah and so they found that. when these people they're studying them. and they're doing these mindfulness. practice they're experiencing like rage. and anxiety and it's like whoa whoa whoa. this is the opposite of where we're. supposed to be headed here and I think. they have figured out in a lot of these. cases it's people that are uncovering. these buried traumas yeah and here's. where we reach like the first initial. part where the West has kind of screwed. this up because it is is unexpected when. somebody in America goes to a Meditation.

Retreat and tries to become more Mindful. and they're confronted with trauma or. they're confronted with Rage or. self-hatred or something like that and. they're not expecting it if you went and. talk to like an actual like Buddhist. monk they'd be like well somebody. probably should have told you that. that's a real possibility right that. you're not this isn't all this isn't. like you know it's like an acid trip. it's not always like flowers and. sunshine sometimes it's like the darkest. thing you'll ever be confronted with. kind of thing same thing the good thing. about mindfulness meditation is that you.

can stop immediately but supposedly in. some some Retreats and some situations. they're like no you got to press through. you got to press through and people are. kind of um enticed or forced into. staying in really uncomfortable trauma. experiences um Way Beyond their comfort. zone and it can actually be damaging and. it's very rare from what I can tell for. there to be like like lasting. but there are reports of people having.

to go to therapy for years after having. gone on basically a bad trip at a. Meditation Retreat for years years of. therapy um so it can happen and I guess. I like I think Chuck there's a 2019. study that found like 20 to 25% of. people who meditate reported. experiencing unwanted effects right like. negative effects that they they were not. planning for and that's the big that's. the big problem. there's no there's no or very little.

warnings about this stuff it's all. treated in a very polanish naive manner. as if like you know America and Europe. got its hands on on like the the uh. secret the cube from Hellraiser and just. like this is awesome let's figure out. how to be more productive using this. thing that's kind of what's going on. yeah and I think another thing that can. happen is uh it can lead to a spiral of. anxiety if you're not able to get to. that place that you think you should be. getting to by practicing it yeah so it.

becomes like this cycle where you know. you're thinking like I'm practicing this. meditation it doesn't seem to be doing. anything for me why can I not even do. this right and all of a sudden that is. building upon itself and creating. anxieties because you feel like you're. supposed to reach this sort of moment of. like float floaty Bliss that is I mean. that's really hard to maintain yes yeah. or I mean not maintain but like even. touch even reach sure and it's been. packaged like that been marketed as. something that you will just reach some. floaty Bliss with and yeah I can totally.

see being stressed out because you don't. reach it because it hasn't been. explained to you even what you're doing. right so um there's a it's a it's a good. little short read it's called. mindfulness meditation and Trauma. proceed with caution I found it on. goodtherapy.org and it it doesn't say. like don't do this even if you know you. have trauma don't meditate don't try to. become mindful it says some you know. make sure you find like a good coach a. good guide a good teacher who. understands how to deal with trauma and. can prepare you for it and can pull you.

back and be like don't forget life's. actually good you're good now let's try. a little more and just kind of little by. little expose yourself to it rather than. like you know ripping your shirt off and. standing in front of like the baseball. pitching. machine uh there's when it comes to. physical pain that's a pretty. interesting area as far as the studies. have been concerned uh like the idea. that can it actually help reduce. physical pain or at least the subjective. experience of pain and you know in some.

studies in some cases the med uh people. who practice meditation do report lower. subjective experience of pain that's NE. uh or what they call pain unpleasantness. so this might be a little bit of a. mindover matter like the actual pain is. still there but I've gotten my mind to. in such a place that the unpleasantness. or the anticipation of that. unpleasantness isn't as great as it. would be if I weren't able to practice. that mindfulness yeah as which ties very.

closely into a Buddhist tenant of the. first Arrow of suffering which is where. everyone has to experience that let's. say you're bitten by an ant uh it's not. a very pleasant sensation and. everybody's going to experience it. roughly the same but there's also a. second Arrow where you can be worried. about being bitten by an ant and it. makes the ACT makes the first Arrow 10. times worse not just twice as bad but 10. times worse and the idea is that if if. you're mindful uh if you practice um.

Sati you won't really experience the. second Arrow just the first arrow and. that's the best you can hope for in this. life that's. right message for you. sir what from uh I always just crack up. when I Every Time I Think of an arrow. hitting a human body I only think of. Monty Python ho when that guy takes the. arrow message for you sir as he's dying. uh there was one study though in 19 a. review of studies actually uh that found. that mbsr can reduce severity of chronic.

pain uh or improve daily functioning and. depression uh about like associated with. that pain which is you know that's. there's something to be said for that. like I don't think it should only be. looked at as some sort of uh hippie. dippy thing like if you have real. physical pain it could possibly help yes. and yeah for sure I mean think that's. kind of like one of the outcomes of it. being exposed to westernization is that. it's being studied and it's actually.

holding up in. studies and boy is it being exposed. because yeah if you work for a big. Corporation if you especially work in. Silicon Valley chances are there are. mindfulness Retreats maybe mindfulness. rooms in the offices where they say hey. we know we work you to death and it's. not fair why don't we' set up this. little uh room that used to be uh a room. for um you know for your kids to come to. work but we don't let that happen.

anymore right it used to be the nursery. but we'll put you in here and you can. Zen out and be cool uh and here's one of. the criticisms as long as you come back. and you get all that work done we think. it's a great tool for you right exactly. and not just corporations but the. military is using. mindfulness um schools little kids are. being taught mindfulness um and to. meditate uh prisons um and there's. there's an enormous amount of like out. just out there in in the culture it's.

it's gotten really popular I guess in. 2012 just over 4% of Americans meditated. uh 5 years later it was up to 14% that's. a pretty big increase in just 5 years. and I would propose it's probably more. than that now in. 2022 um so it's everywhere but it's. also really kind of um lost its way I. guess once it hit America and Corporate. America in particular mindfulness kind.

of got perverted I think is a way you. could put it yeah I mean that critique. is is really valid like it's great that. a company might take mindfulness into. consideration as something beneficial. for their employees but to ignore the. root cause which is you're working too. many hours a week and you're overworked. and you can't possibly get done what you. should get done and that's where this. anxiety is rooted um here's a. mindfulness room so you can help correct. all that like it totally puts the onus.

on the employee to sort of self adjust. to what's probably way too much work. instead of saying hey maybe people. wouldn't be in this position to begin. with if they you know didn't have to. work 60 hours in a week right and and. the same thing goes for social movements. as well like some people say Hey you. know how like a lot of us are mentally. ill these days that's because society's. screwed up so rather than put the onus. again on the individual person just kind. of suck it up and deal with it in a.

mindful manner why don't we focus. instead on these social problems that. are causing all these other social. problems so we don't have to do that um. and those are really uh valid uh. criticisms of westernized mindfulness in. 20 the 2020s and there's actually a term. for it that a guy named Miles Neil. coined and another guy named Ronald. perser wrote a book using that name it's. perfect. mcmindfulness yeah I love that word and.

they're basically saying like hey you. guys have so completely detached this. from ethics and morals and religion and. and kind of co-opted something that had. its roots there that yeah you've you've. there needs to be a term for that you've. Mi mied it yeah you've Mi screed it up. you've mix screwed it up you mcmed it. you mcmed it I like that uh and that you. know you can't ignore the theological.

roots and have it be the the same thing. and HR reps across the country say oh. yes we can yeah ex and look what happens. we're really screwing people up so. that's right um there's a there's a a. like a couple of quotes I found that I. really feel like kind of get to the. heart of what happened when mindfulness. came over here and got got picked up by. Corporate America and the military and. just other surprising in groups and. maybe put to not the best uses um.

there's a really good New York Times. article from back in 2015 that was kind. of a meditation on the idea of. mindfulness or the word mindfulness and. what it what it means by Virginia Hein. um and she says that um what commercial. mindfulness may have lost from the most. rigorous Buddhist tenants that it. replaced is the implication that. suffering cannot be escaped but must be. faced and that's that's that Mis. packaging that mism marketing that we. talked about that the idea that if you.

meditate and you're mindful it's going. to free you from all your problems make. you less stressed and and more. productive and just happier and that's. not necessarily the case because we in. the west tend to really like to like you. said um avoid all of the stuff that that. really stinks and just get as much of. the stuff that we like and that's not. what that's meant for yeah this uh I. think it's from the same article about. mindful fra tracking mhm uh could that. be next putting a neuroscience halo.

around a by word for both uppers. productivity and downers relaxation to. ensure a more compliant Workforce and a. more prosperous sea Suite right there it. is and there's another one too um the. dolly llama apparently pointed out that. um even a suicide bomber would likely. have to cultivate some sort of. mindfulness it's not it's not inherently. ethical and if it's not inherently. ethical then that means that you could. conceivably use it to nefarious ends and. the way that Buddhists for thousands of.

years kept it from being used to nefar. ends is by encasing it in wholesomeness. like mindfulness specifically what's. called right mindfulness by the. Buddhists is it's a wholesome approach. and separating wholesome thoughts from. UNH wholesome thoughts and if you just. take the mindfulness practice out of. that context you have a problem um you. want to read that quote from Andrew. olinsky true mindfulness is deeply and.

inextricably embedded in the notion of. wholesomeness just as a tree removed. from the forest is no longer a tree but. a piece of lumber so also the carrying. attentiveness of mindfulness extracted. from its Matrix of wholesome co-arising. factors denigrates into mere attention. yeah just attention that's the best you. can hope for is it just ingrates into. mirr tension and not something harmful. you know so yeah I think it's great I. think it's a I think it's wonderful that. people want this and they're seeking it. out and they're trying it I think the.

people who are selling it to everybody. need to just package it more. transparently and explain the true. purpose of it and stop using it for. productivity agreed uh if you want to. know more about mindfulness go um go. research it and see if it's for you and. give it a shot and go into it with right. eyes right Vision I can't remember uh. and since I said I can't remember of. course that means it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this tribute.

to Ziggy bomach from his son Michael uh. we got a great email that uh and I've. been conversing with Michael for the. past couple of weeks on this good dude. and his dad was a good dude uh Hey guys. longtime listener uh recently lost my. father and been going through a great. deal of grief uh my dad was at high risk. for uh catching covid so I made sure it. was my priority to keep him safe and. since being social was an option over. the past couple of years we turned to. Nature during the pandemic and rekindled.

our love for The Great Outdoors uh. though he never had to rekindle his he. was born in Poland and immigrated to the. states in the 60s and was only ever. comfortable in his Gardener in the woods. he was a simple but passionate man so we. started driving out to Western North New. Jersey to Stokes Forest to get spring. water and go fishing uh it's a gorgeous. part of the state it was about 50. minutes each way perfect to introduce. him to my favorite podcast stuff you. should know nice uh even though I had to. describe to him what a podcast was he.

was instantly enthralled and I can still. hear him quietly asking in the car if. Chuck and Josh were going to be. broadcasting. today it's just adorable uh like me he. adored your uh ability to convey. something complex and tough information. such a sweet and conversational way he. would always come home and tell my mom. what he had Learned was so much. isolation the past few years it was. warming to hear him happy about all. these new subjects that he was learning. about you gave him that happiness and. made his life that much better over the.

last couple of years of his life I can't. thank you enough for everything that you. continue to do there's so much bad in. this world right now and people are. hardly operating at their best but you. continue to do something uh worthwhile. and worth making something worth. learning so thank you for making the. life of Ziggy bombach a little brighter. towards his end and that is from Mike. man and he sent me a picture of Ziggy. and I read the obituary I looked it up. and uh Ziggy seemed like a great great. guy and uh I had to Zin out to uh.

reading this so I wouldn't cry like I've. cried every time that's a really amazing. email thank you so much that I it's. impossible to not pass judgment on that. one I'm going to say I feel very proud. Chuck that's right in this case great. judgment and uh rip Ziggy you sound like. a great guy yep rip Ziggy and thank you. Mike I'm glad we could uh help bring you. and your dad together that's pretty. amazing stuff uh if you want want to be. like Mike and get in touch with us and. write us the email of the century we are.

willing to read it uh you can send it to. us at stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].