Selects: How Mail Order Marriages Work | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

You may not know this, but the original. purpose of Stuff You Should Know was to. change people's minds about mailorder. marriages. And we certainly did with. this episode. We were so successful that. we decided to keep the podcast going. I'm just kidding. For those of our. listeners who have trouble detecting. that kind of thing, what is true is that. it's a surprisingly interesting episode. and it may very well change your mind. about mailorder marriages. I was serious. just now. For those of our listeners who. always think I'm kidding, how about we.

all just enjoy this episode, shall we? >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. And this is stuff you should. know. uh about mail order marriages. The murky waters.

>> Yeah. Really? Uh yeah. This is one of those where. we researched and researched and read. and read. >> Yeah. >> And uh I think it's it's one of those. deals for me that's like and this is. just my opening statement. >> Okay. where it it can be a uh a positive thing. like a dating service in some ways. >> Uh but there is certainly a darker side.

to the whole situation. Uh. >> I already know how you feel about it and. I feel like it's coming through clearly. >> Yeah. I mean, it's just it's very it's. one of those really murky things where. sometimes you hear these really great. stories about people that do find are. looking for love and find love with. someone from another country. >> and it works out for everybody. >> Yeah. And then sometimes you hear about. stories where it's sort of what uh the. National Organization for Women's Sonia. Assario calls uh a softer version of.

human trafficking. >> Mhm. Or even worse, occasionally someone. turns up murdered. >> Yeah. Abs. I mean that's the truest dark. side. So uh that's just me level setting. and we can talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. >> I think that was a great level set. generally agree with it. But for me, the. jury is still out in thinking about it. as a whole because there's so little. hard data on this stuff that almost.

everything is anecdotal. >> True. >> And when like you condemn something. based on anecdotal data, what you've got. there is a moral panic, not necessarily. something in in reality. So, I'm a. little hesitant to go all the way. The. jury is still out for me, but I. definitely recognize the same stuff you. do for sure. It's definitely there. It. exists. It's just for me the question is. how much does it exist and does the good. outweigh the bad? And I don't know. So. we should we should probably like. actually define what we're talking about. here because I most people I would guess.

are familiar with mailorder brides. They're more um more recently they're. they've come to be called mailorder. marriages because they've been extended. to same-sex couples in the United. States. But then also like even more. generally it's called um international. marriage brokerage, right? Yeah, I mean. there's a full industry built around. this with thousands of uh websites and. and agencies that are brokering these. marriages. And you know, from looking. into it, it seems like there are some.

really above board ones. >> that kind of act like uh an. international dating service in some. ways. Um where they group, you know, match like people together. And then it. seems like there are a lot of really. sketchy ones that charge people a ton of. money and aren't looking out for uh the. men or the women. >> Yeah. None of that money is sunk back. into making their website look at all. >> non cluji.

>> I saw some really really bad websites. >> I mean so bad man. Like I saw comic. sands at one point. >> Yeah. It's hard to see those and not. think well a this is a scam or b this is. a front for some sort of CD trafficking. operation. >> right yeah it is tough not not to um. think like that but but what we are. talking about generally is um a a uh a. marriage um where the husband and the. wife are generally unknown to each other.

maybe have met once but if they did it's. possible it was just a day or two. beforeh. >> um or Maybe they've met once or twice. and have done some correspondence back. and forth for an extended period of. time, but that's pretty new. And in in. the classical definition, it's they're. generally unknown to one another. Um, and one of them usually the the bride. travels a very long distance from home. to move to the husband's home uh and. make a life there and be married. Um,

that's not the Webster's definition. There's a lot more stumbling in my. definition, but I think that generally. gets it across. >> Yeah. And you know the the kind of the. classic thing that you think of is. lonely American man who has a little bit. of money in his 40s or 50s can't find. American woman and ends up getting a a. young beautiful young Ukrainian woman. >> who doesn't speak much English and would. love to live in the United States uh and.

and fall in love with an American man. And that's sort of and you know of. course it happens from all countries but. a lot of times you think of Russia and. the Ukraine or maybe in Southeast Asia. or something like that. Uh that is sort. of I feel like when people say that term. most people that's probably what pops. into their head. >> Yeah. Or I think you're being rather. generous. I think a lot of people would. be like you know some sad sack who can't. like find a woman in America has to go. look elsewhere to get really judgy about.

it. And I think people are really judgy. about mail order marriages. I think. there's a longstanding tradition in the. United States of considering people who. who go outside the traditional channels. of marriage and basically take it into. their own hands like through male order. marriage are they're they're very much. judged harshly and criticized maybe. maybe fairly maybe not. But I think. there's another component too, especially these days, is that the men. who who are looking for women for male.

order brides are also dominant, doineering, possibly abusive. Uh, and. they're looking for docsel uh women who. will do whatever they say because. they're the husband. So they have to go. to other cultures where that might be. more prevalent and where they can select. from uh women who might respond to that. kind of thing a lot better than an. American woman who wouldn't put up with. his gut. >> Yeah, I mean that is certainly a part of. what happens sometimes and some of these. agencies. uh promote that uh the submissive.

nature. Um there was one that literally. said that these uh young women are quote. unspoiled by feminism and you have. potential homemaking savings of $150 a. week uh because you're essentially. getting a you know sort of a living. domestic servant. >> Good lord. >> So you know that's the underbelly in the. dark side. But we you know I did find. some that do seem very above board and. people that do genuinely look like. they're looking for love and have struck. out at home. So they're looking. elsewhere. >> Yeah. So, I said, Chuck, and we should.

also say one other thing, too, like you. know, um it's pretty like it's a pretty. well-known thing in America. It's not. like on everybody's lips. You don't hear. it in every monologue on the late night. talk shows or anything like that, but. like generally people in America are. familiar and know about mail order. marriages. But it turns out it's even. bigger in other countries like Taiwan. and South Korea have huge mail order. marriage industries um that may even.

dwarf the United States and it's pretty. I don't want to say it's huge in the. United States but it's not like just. some small speck of sliver of like. arcane group of people like it's bigger. than you'd think but it's even bigger in. some other Asian countries as well. >> Yeah. And uh Dave uh Ruse helped us put. this together and this was a a tough. assignment for him, but uh he used um a. lot of information from a book by a uh. legal professor originally from the. University of South Carolina named. Marcia Zug called Buying a Bride insert.

colon music Jerry. >> an engaging history of mail order. matches. >> where uh it seems like she gives a you. know a fair but fairly fullthroated. defense of its history through. >> the ages as far as and we'll get into. this, but. >> as far as an opportunity for a lot of. women to gain more agency and to gain. more rights uh at a time when they might. not have any uh all the way up through. today where uh she still defends it to a.

certain degree and and says, you know, like sure these situations can be bad, but what's really bad is what. undocumented immigrants have to suffer. through in this country because they. have no legal rights. They can't go to. the police. They can't leave their their. uh spouse or or their partner. >> uh for fear of deportation. And uh it's. an interesting take, I think, and and. I'm glad that Dave.

>> found this book, you know, cuz I don't. I'm not sure that I would have been as. fair. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, she definitely. almost I get the impression that she um. is defensive in on behalf of the. industry just because of how mistreated. it's been and in her opinion unfairly in. large part. >> Yeah. So, because you know, I think it. very much has an anti-feminist rap for. good reason. But she does make some. compelling arguments that throughout. history. >> it wasn't that way at all. And I guess. we can go ahead and dive into some of. that.

>> Yeah. in um the early days of male order. marriages in the American colonies. >> Yeah. >> There was a a a lack of women problem in. the in the early colonies. >> I mean like the earliest colonies, we're. talking like James Town here. >> Yeah. Like you know the Puritans and. pilgrims, they may have come over with. their families, but there were a lot of. single men that came over and a lot of. them uh some of them may like run off. with an indigenous woman and live with. among her tribe and be like, "You know. what? I'm kind of done building things.

for Jamestown. >> I'm out of here. So, that's no good. Uh, if they're looking for young men to like. kind of help build up these young. colonies. And then other ones were just. lonely and said, "Hey, I like I there. are no women over here. What are we. supposed to do?" So very early on uh. they started um sort of advertising and. bringing uh women, you know, supposedly. volunteers over who wanted to come to. the colonies and and sort of have maybe.

even more rights than they had back. home. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is a really good. example of kind of like a a thread that. ran through the first couple centuries. of America's founding um which was. government sanctioned and supported. um male order marriages in order to help. build more stable communities. Right? So. the the um legislators did things like. create laws that made it more attractive. for a woman to become a mail orderer.

bride in this area. like um apparently. in England uh if you became a widow you. you got a third of the estate and that. was it. And in places like Virginia and. I think Maryland as well, they set up. laws that basically said, "Hey, you're. going to keep a lot more than that. You. can run your own business afterward.". Like being a widow is going to rock. And. did we mention also the men are dropping. dead like flies over here? So your. husband's probably going to die pretty. quick. So if you don't like him, who. cares? you still get to keep all this.

inheritance and you get to keep the. business and you can't do quite that. well for yourself under those. circumstances back in England. So that. attracted people and that was like the. government saying like please come over. here and marry these strangers that. you've never met before. >> Yeah. And you know it made sense for a. lot of these young women because many of. them were uh you know they were from. like the servant class let's say. So. they were looking at years of servitude. uh in England and then they basically. were like well hey forget all that why.

don't you just come over here get. married and like you said I think the. stat is even uh one in three marriages. lasted 10 years. >> Yeah. >> So they did kind of sell him on the fact. that yeah if it's not so great he'll. probably be dead soon enough. >> Yeah. >> And then you can have his stuff. >> Yeah. And it actually I mean like that. that actually did um like attract some. women I think at least uh I don't I. don't know if we have the number but. there definitely were they called. tobacco uh wives uh who came to marry.

new tobacco planters who were setting up. their own fortune and I actually had to. prove that they were of financial means. by donating 150 pounds of gold leaf. tobacco to the Virginia company to to. take part in this. Right. And so um that. that lasted as long as it lasted or as. long as it needed to. And as the eastern. colonies started to like become more. self-sufficient um became less rowdy, became more familyoriented as far as the. Europeans were concerned um the the need.

for like those mail order schemes um. kind of went away. But then as America. kind of expanded further and further. west, the frontier kept recreating. itself in different places. So, you. know, um it went from the eastern. colonies to, you know, along the. Mississippi and then further and further. out west. And every time it did that, this new iteration of the frontier was. settled by rowdy men. and they would. have to figure out a way to get women to.

attract women to come out to marry the. rowdy men so they would stop beating. each other up in bar fights and and. become more productive citizens. And. that kept going on throughout the the. 18th and 19th centuries in the United. States. >> Yeah. And you know, if you're already. thinking, guys, this this already sounds. terrible. These marriages based on these. financial arrangements. >> Yeah. >> And you know, despite these promises of. a better life, like that's kind of what. we're talking about. like welcome to. marriage in the 17th and 18th century.

>> Yeah, don't be so naive. >> Yeah, that's not that's kind of what it. was. And and Dave made a good point like. the notion of marrying for true love. That's a very much like a 20th century. proposition. >> Yeah. >> Uh even if it wasn't a male order bride. situation, it was someone's dowy or or. parents sort of arranging marriages and. saying these family this family should. marry this family, which still goes on. today. I should point out among like the. blue chip in the high society.

>> Sure. >> Like and Arthur had to marry Susan. You. know, let's not forget that. >> everybody with a Habsburg jaw was an. arranged marriage. I'm guess. >> you couldn't marry Liza Minnelli. >> The youngress. Sorry, I didn't realize. you were making the movie reference. I. thought you were I thought you Arthur. and Susan. >> I thought you were using like Biff and. Muffy like generally. blood names. I got it now. I got it. But. the point is is that marriage was a. financial arrangement many and most.

times back then. I'm I'm not saying no. one ever married because they were in. love. I'm sure that happened. Uh but. they had to tick a lot of boxes back. then. So it was just sort of the way it. was. And so this solved problems. >> for uh early settlers and for westward. expanders. Uh they made things really. attractive in California for women. They. made it easier to divorce your husband. if you wanted to. Mh. >> Uh they made it easier to or just legal. to own and sell buy and sell land. >> which is not something you could do at.

other places in the country. >> So they were trying to make it an. attractive situation for women to move. west because they needed men and women. out there. And uh I think the between. 1850 and 1860 the uh the population of. women in California increased from 3% to. 19 19%. >> Yeah. of the total population. So it it. was working. >> Yeah, it was. And it wasn't just. California, but um Washington state uh. also participated. I think Oregon may.

have as well. Um and there would be. there were the the these schemes, and I. don't mean scheme, like you know, like. dastardly scheme, but like a a plan. >> A good scheme. >> Yeah. where like a guy would go around. to the uh bachelors out in like. Washington territory and be like give me. a hundred bucks or I think 300 bucks. which is about five grand today um and I. will bring you a suitable wife um and at. least one guy did this uh Asa Mercer was. a marriage broker and he would go back.

east say hey there's like this great. booming economy out west why don't you. come with me and like he would return. with like a hundred women and some of. them would get married immediately at. least some would wait. Um but it was. like another it was another thing where. there was a need for women uh to. stabilize an outofc control male. population. Yeah. And you know Zug. points out very fairly in her book that. some of these Mercer girls from is they. were called from Asa Mercer's operation.

>> uh became abolitionists. Some became. women's rights advocates and social. reformers. Uh one of them's name was uh. this a great name uh Mhidable Haskell. Elder. uh and she organized the 1871 women's. rights conference in Olympia Washington. and recruited one Susan Banthony as the. territory delegate for the National. Women's Suffrage Association convention. >> right. >> so you know in a lot of cases these uh. women did find agency and they did get.

out of a better situation than they were. in back east. Hey, so you want to take a. break and then uh we'll talk about the. the probably what was the real birth of. mail order marriages. >> Sure. Okay. We'll be right back.

All right, Chuck. So, we've been talking. to this point about basically like. government sanctioned schemes to kind of. stabilize male populations. There was. also at the same time beginning in the. 19th century um I think starting in. England actually in the 18th century. that was kind of simultaneously. unfolding and that was um uh the. matrimonial advertisement industry which. to me is like the the real birth of the.

mail order marriage industry that we we. understand today. But it was basically. the personal ads. >> Yeah, it was the birth of personal ads, the birth of dating services. Mhm. >> Uh it's really interesting in that uh. women would put ads in London and then. later on in the United States ads in the. paper basically saying you know hi this. is who I am this is what I'm looking. for. I mean much like you would see. these days in like a dating profile. >> and it was a way for them to you know to.

take some agency over avoiding the. arranged marriage that their parents had. set up for them and maybe get a little. bit of choice of suitors. >> Right. And I mean like that is like. taking control of your own um of your. own marriage prospects. And and it was I. guess radical is probably a pretty good. word, but it picked up. It caught on. Um. especially in the US uh by the end of. the 19th century, it really started to. catch on to where there were like um.

magazines that were like dedicated just. to matrimonial advertisements. Right. >> Yeah. Like there was the uh the. matrimonial news which is actually the. most straight ahead of all of them. >> Yeah, I like uh Cupid's messenger. That. sounds like a cute one. >> Uh what about heart and hand? >> Heart and hand. And then to me this one. I guess they were just trying to play it. really safe. The standard correspondence. club, >> right? Good day to you. >> Right. Exactly. >> So yeah, so these things were like kind.

of popular by the end of the 19th. century. But then it's like you said. earlier the um by by the end of the 19th. century the beginning of the 20th. century our ideas about what constituted. marriage or the reasons for marriage had. transitioned from financial arrangements. into love in America. Right? And so. there was simultaneously a popularity of. matrimonial advertisements and people. taking control of their own marriage. prospects. >> and at the same time um a criticism and.

a uh like society generally looking down. upon people who did that kind of thing. So there would be stories in the paper. of people like sad sack bachelors or. lonely heart widows getting conned or. swindled or getting fool catfished. basically is what you call it today. Um. and people love to read that kind of. stuff and laugh at their misfortune and. look down on these people. Um, and that. that that's where like the root of what. people still do today to the mail.

orderer marriage industry, at least in. America, um, really finds its roots in. the in the 20th century. >> Yeah. And this is when things started. transitioning to overseas. uh, when American men started bringing. in women from foreign countries. >> And that's when I think that's when it. became a bit more of an industry. And. this is when Congress got kind of. full-on racist in trying to control this. thing. >> Yeah. >> Uh because there was, you know, there.

were women saying, "I don't want these. women coming into our country and. disrupting our our feminist agenda that. we're trying to push." Right. >> There were men saying, "We don't want. this uh people from China or Japan. coming in here and you know, they can. they can have babies once a year." And. they like there were senators literally. saying these things. >> And so they would enact laws like you. know we're going to be overrun. basically. So they would enact laws uh. like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

>> uh to to ban Chinese immigration. Uh. there was a loophole for Japan with the. 1907 gentleman's agreement which. basically said if you that a Japanese. woman uh and and their kids could come. over if they were married. Mh. >> So there were Japanese single men. already in the United States that. immigrated over here that would get. married sight unseen from like a catalog. basically to in order to gain. immigration status for the Japanese. women. >> And then that ultimately got shut down.

in 1924 with the immigration act and. they just said no Japanese immigration. of any any kind now after that. So there. was a huge anti-Asian thread from the. late 19th century and the early 20th. century um based on immigration and a. lot of that kind of centered on male. order marriages. Um but then uh one of. the other things that that really kind. of cropped up as a result of male order. marriages going from like women back.

east or women coming from Europe to. women coming from Asia uh to marry white. American men. um was there there was. this idea that the women were nothing. more than like looking for um a green. card basically American citizenship. trying to escape their own country and. you run into that criticism today I mean. just as much as you would have back in. 1924 when they passed the the. immigration act against Japanese people. Oh yeah, because you know uh and this is.

from uh Zug's book. She talks about you. know Mexican women, Greek women, Asian. women, Jewish women, Italian women, they. were much more likely to be deported. under an LPC charge which is a person. that is likely to become a public charge. basically like to come over and sort of. live off the government. >> uh if they were from these countries. And a way around that was to get married. and get that green card. So that. criticism like came pretty straight away. I think. >> Right. And then the other one is that.

that they were basically all just sex. workers in disguise coming over under. the guise of being male order brides but. really they were coming over here to. prostitute themselves and behave. immorally. Um and again this is another. accusation that you see today except the. the the onus has or the the focus the. empathy I guess has evolved from being. put on society um being uh attacked by.

these immoral women to the women. themselves being trafficked by. international criminals. But it's still. generally the same accusation. It's just. been it's just altered itself some. You. know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um and you know. that sort of uh anti-feminist charge. from American women. >> saying that you know these women from. other countries are coming over here and. they they do whatever their husbands. tell them and this is setting us back. Uh they would say the same thing though.

about war brides. if uh you were a. soldier in Korea or Vietnam and and. brought a woman back over, they would. have that same kind of charge levied. against them saying the only reason. you're bringing these women back is. because of the power imbalance that is. is now gained. And right, >> you know, that can be fair to a certain. degree. There's a lot there is. it's really hard to talk about. marriage like this without talking about. uh inequity and a power imbalance from.

the beginning. Um not to say that that. doesn't change and that there aren't. great success stories where uh both. partners are equal and they both. contribute and they both you know. respect one another's viewpoints. Uh but. there anytime you are. in a situation where you are bringing. someone over from another country that. is escaping a bad situation and looking. for a more prosperous situation and you. can provide that and you are paying the.

money to the service for linking you. There's a power imbalance there from the. beginning. >> Yeah. Well, there's a power imbalance in. that like you probably don't speak the. language as the male order bride. You. don't have any friends. You don't have. any family. You don't have any social. structure to depend on. the only person. you have to depend on is your husband. >> and he's not very nice to you or even. worse abusive toward you, um you're in. you're in big trouble. And then it's. also like you said, if you are escaping. poverty back home, >> you might show up with basically no.

money. And so if you just found out that. this guy is not always he's cracked up. to be or he is abusive or um he's. actually got a terrible criminal record. or terrible credit or all sorts of stuff. that you wouldn't have otherwise come. over for. Um you're stuck here. And. according to some human trafficking. groups, that is a that is a broad. definition of human trafficking where a. person is moved from one place to. another for financial means and then. ends up becoming dependent financially. uh in a situation that they otherwise.

wouldn't want to be in. They would not. have chosen to put themselves in. That's. as much human trafficking in a broad. definition as somebody being kidnapped. and forced into uh sex work. >> Yeah. And even if there is no uh you. know no literal violence or abuse, >> it that doesn't mean that it's an. equitable situation because someone can. essentially be a uh almost a captive in. their own home like you said if they. don't speak the language. They have no. advocates over here for themselves.

>> or friends to help them and speak up for. them. And it's uh you can see why it. gets a bad rap for sure. So on the flip. side though, there have to be men out. there who just struck out consistently. with America or American women or men. and took uh matters into their own hands. and looked abroad. And the best way to. do that is a marriage broker. And. there's plenty of places you can do. that. Um, and then also the other.

problem with just basically. characterizing. um, mail order brides as nothing but. like victims ripe for exploitation is to. really miss the personalities of a lot. of them where to put yourself out there. as a mail order to bride shows a um or. demonstrates like a lot of initiative. compared to just staying back home and. making do with your lot in life. Mhm. >> Like if you're a widow in some countries.

and you have kids, you might not be. remarable. There might not be anybody. who wants to marry you. And so you're. doomed to a life of solitude and single. motherhood whether you like it or not. So if you just say, "Okay, well that's. my lot in life. That's what I'm doing.". Okay, fine. But if you say, "You know. what? No, there's another way out." and. it might not be the most tasteful thing. that I would have chosen for myself uh. before, but I really want to make sure. my kids are taken care of and I'm going. to go seek a husband elsewhere. that.

shows that demonstrates a lot of um. self-starterness I guess that that um I. think kind of undermines a lot of the. view of of male order to brides these. kind of like simple-minded docel uh. women um that that can't fend for. themselves or stick up for themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you it's also a real. slippery slope to to judge uh I mean we. we all think like oh it should you.

should only fall in love with love at. first sight. >> and that should be all it is and that. should be what marriage is based on. Full stop. >> It's a real slippery slope to uh to. judge someone other someone else's. situation if it's working out for both. of them. If if it is a a rich old guy in. his 60s who is like, "You know what? I. want to live out the last 15 years of my. life." Uh with a partner and there's a a. beautiful young Ukrainian woman who's. like, "You know what? I've got nothing.

going on over here. I don't have a lot. of prospects. My country is not, you. know, doing me any favors. And so, I'm. going to go over and marry some rich guy. and we're going to be happy for the last. 15 years of his life.". >> Mhm. and they travel and they do take. cruises and they have a good time. together. Like it's a real slippery. slope for someone to come in and say, "Well, no, that's wrong.". >> Yeah. >> Because you guys just didn't meet and. fall in love like you know meeting in a. bar drunk one night like all like all. Americans. >> Again and again that seems to be a.

long-standing criticism that stretches. back at least a century here in America, too. >> For sure. >> Okay, so enough of that. Enough of that. I feel like we should talk about some of. the nuts and bolts of um the mail order. marriage industry. Okay. >> Yeah. Uh let's do it. >> Well, let's start. So, I found this um. contemporary journalism. >> um from 1986, >> your CJ, >> right? Uh in the New York Times, and. they they basically just checked in with.

the mail orderer marriage industry at. the time. And it gave a really good. snapshot of how things used to be. One. of the reasons why mail orderer brides. were called mail orderer brides because. time was that you would find a mail. orderer marriage service. You would. subscribe to that service. The New York. Times says anywhere between $50 to $500. a year. Um, and every month. >> every well that was for a catalog, annual subscription was 50 to 500. And. then every month or every couple months. or maybe twice a month, probably not.

twice a month, >> you would get a catalog that was clearly. made by somebody who didn't major in. catalog making in college of pictures of. the of like a prospective bride, her. stats, physical stats, her likes, her. dislikes, that kind of thing. Basically, a blurb. and you were you'd flip through. a catalog and you'd get back in touch. with the subscription service and say I. like number eight 8972. um and I also like 3755.

and you just give them a list of of. women that you wanted them to reach out. to on your behalf. And all of a sudden, you would start exchanging letters. Uh, little by little, you would narrow down. the the women that you were talking to. And then you would eventually probably. go over and meet one and maybe in that. trip marry them, like have have your. wedding like that the day you meet them. or the day after you met them. And that. was pretty standard for the the 70s and.

80s as far as mail order goes. And I. think into the 90s as well. >> Yeah. Yeah, and of course it's all. online now. And depending on which. agency you go through and like I said, there are thousands. They offer a range. of services to, you know, bleed you of. as much money as they can in the. process, >> right? >> Whether it's subscription fees or we'll. we'll write your letters, first letters. for you and translate them for a fee, >> right? >> Or if you want to video chat or have. phone calls, we can arrange that for a.

fee. >> Yeah, >> everything has a fee. Uh, I think this. one, and this is from an. anti-trafficking international website. article, uh, they said that estimates. show, um, people spend about $6 to $10,000. Each client spends about $6 to $10,000. >> Yeah. >> And I think this is for, you know, the I. guess more high-end, more reputable. ones. I think I think some of those. places are happy if they get like 500.

bucks out of you and then you leave. Well, I think you can be like a skin. flint husband um and just do it strictly. online and then go meet them and marry. them. But there are ones that offer like. tours for like five grand. Um which. depending on the country may or may not. be legal uh where you like if you went. to Vietnam it would be illegal. In. Vietnam mail order um marriage is the. whole industry is illegal but it's also. rampant there. Um, and there there are.

like whole hotels that where a woman. goes and stays and then tours of like. guys from Taiwan or South Korea or the. United States come through and meet. them. >> Uh, and I think human trafficking people. are like and do god knows what else for. money. And um then if if you hit it off. with one, maybe you like start talking. to them a little more or you marry them. on the spot, that kind of thing. But. there's like there's tours you can go.

on. And depending on your view of the. male order marriage industry, it's. either a tour where you're going and. meeting a lot of prospective brides or. it's basically a sex tour to Vietnam, >> right? Uh, and they also will do things. where it's really hard to not read as. uh a man sort of buying a woman where. they say like, "Well, you know, we'll. put them up in this hotel and we'll have. them go checked out by our doctors and. our psychologists. They'll have a. psychological evaluation and all of this.

information will be sent to you, the man. with the money, to make your decision on. whether or not you're going to sort of. pay for this bride." And it's it's. really hard to look at that any other. way than that. Like you really got to. stretch your mind. >> Yeah. >> And but then you will read a story about. a couple that that are deeply in love. for 20 years on and who had kids in. America and who had a great life. together. Uh and it and they were like, "No, it was really more like an. international dating service.".

>> Uh and they just sort of matchmaked um. or matchmated made matched. >> Matchmaked. I love it. Uh, so it's like. it's just I' I don't know if we've ever. had a topic where I was so like, "All. right, well, this doesn't sound too. bad." And like, "Oh my god, this sounds. terrible.". >> Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah. I I can't. remember. >> And that may be the industry, you know? >> Yeah. I mean, >> I think it can be both those things. >> Yeah. It makes you Yes. And it surely is. both of those things. Again, the. question is, is one way more than the.

other? And if so, which way is it. lopsided? And if so, do we need to like. follow Vietnam's footsteps and outlaw. the marriage the mail order marriage. industry? You know what I'm saying? It's. like. >> sure. >> that that that may be a really big red. flag. Like why did Vietnam outlaw an. entire industry that's totally like fine. and legal here in the United States? >> Right. >> So, um. >> should we take a break? >> Yeah, I think we should take a break and. um we'll talk about uh mail order uh. marriages in the internet age because. things have changed a little bit. >> Yeah. And some of the laws.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Right. All right. We'll be right. back. >> All right. Um, really quickly, this uh. the great article I found that from the. Anti-Trafficking International site,

they did kind of talk a little bit about. what it means for your immigration. status. >> and how because I mentioned earlier that. Zug said, you know, who's really at risk. are undocumented immigrants because they. have no recourse. >> Um, but even if you do come over as a. mail orderer bride and uh here here's. basically what happens. The immigration. uh marriage fraud amendment which was. enacted in ' 86 is basically the husband. will apply for a spouse uh or a fiance.

visa. >> and then the bride marries has to marry. the husband within 3 months upon arrival. in the US. So there's a a 3-month sort. of try it out period, >> right? >> Uh but the bride only has conditional. resident status for 2 years. So, in that. 2-year period, um, at the end of which. they have to apply jointly for her. permanent status as a resident, in that. conditional two-year period, that is the. the dodgy territory where they're. basically like the bride is completely.

dependent on the husband. He holds all. the cards. Uh, they're very vulnerable. at this point. They may have linguistic. isolation uh or andor cultural. isolation. They may not have that social. network that we were talking about or be. completely economically dependent on the. husband and they might be afraid that. he'll be like, "You know what? It's in. that 2-year frame. I can still have you. sent home, >> right? >> So, you better you better be nice." Uh, and this is basically where they're. saying this is just sort of a a softer.

version of trafficking, right? >> Even though, and there is real. trafficking attached to this, we're not. talking about that. We're talking about. women who do come over voluntarily, right? uh but they still see that as a. sort of a softer version of that. >> So um and that power dynamic and the one. where you mentioned where the the men. were supplied with all the information. where the mail order brides had. basically none about the men. um that. that's changed in the last few years. thanks to the internet and thanks to. things like video chat and texting and.

Facebook and Skype and now women uh are. able just through the simple tools of. the internet um to to be much more. discerning and discriminating in the the. men they choose. It's not just like I'm. going to put myself in a catalog and. cross my fingers. Um they're they're. much they're putting themselves out. there much more at least ones that are. are members of legitimate mail order. marriage brokerages, right? >> Yeah. And there was uh there were very.

sadly a couple of uh high-profile. murders. >> Yeah. >> Uh leading up to the International. Marriage Broker Regulation Act in 2005. And this is where things really kind of. changed as far as at least trying to. help adjust that power dynamic in that. uh if you are a legitimate brokerage. agency, you're required to um provide. these women with a lot of information. now about the men. Um whether or not. they're on state or national sex. offender registries, um background on.

their like financials. Yeah. uh they're. given information on on domestic. violence and like what that looks like, you know, and how to go to the police. and stuff like that and that you can do. stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> Um arrest history history, marital. history, residence history, if they have. kids, all kinds of stuff now that these. agencies have to provide about the men. for the women. >> Yeah. And so. people who are like, "Hey, that's not.

that's not cool, man. If you were an. American woman just dating an American. man, you wouldn't have access to that. kind of information. That's really. invasive. >> It is true. It's also almost basically a. straw man argument because. >> an American woman is not going to be in. the kind of isolated completely. dependent situation that a male order. bride's going to be. And and so the mail. order bride needs a lot more safeguards. than just an average American woman's. going to need. So nice try, but that.

argument doesn't hold water at all. >> Yeah, I agree. Um, you talked earlier at. the beginning about a lack of data and. statistics. They don't even really know. how often this is happening, >> much less how many are successful and. how many times they end like poorly or. or in abuse and things like that. There. there are a few numbers out there. Uh, I. think the uh how do you pronounce that? I want to say um Tahi Tahiri.

>> Tahhiri Justice Center they estimate. between 11,000 and 16,000 uh women. immigrate each year through a marriage. broker. Uh the INS has it more like 4 to. 6,000. Uh so you kind of can't really tell how. much this is even going on. And so it's. really hard to, you know, like you said, if you don't have the data for for noobs. like us, it's kind of hard to form a. hard opinion, >> right? But it's not just noobs like us. who don't have the data. Like no one has.

the data. So it's like, >> you know, no one can form a hard. opinion. And you if in that case, you. have to treat it on like a case- by case. basis. And like if you if you have. nothing but anecdotal data or evidence, you can't just say like yes, the mail. orderer marriage industry is just a. front for human trafficking and sex. trafficking. That's that is a moral. panic that you've just started right. there. Um so we have to go out and get. the data, but at the same time that.

doesn't mean you can't simultaneously. offer support to women who might be. suffering from that. Like what if it. turns out to be true? like, yeah, it's. all just a big front for human. trafficking and these women need help. Roll out the red carpet, like get those. services broadcast, like figure out how. to get them help if they need it. And. see if anybody comes out of the woodwork. in the meantime while you're conducting. those studies to come up with that data. one way or another. Can't hurt. It's. just money and that's a pretty good. thing to spend money on if you ask me.

>> Yeah, I agree. Uh there are some studies. that show spousal abuse rates are about. three times higher. Uh, but this is just. for immigrant women married to US. husbands. >> I don't think I think that includes all. immigrant women. I don't think it's just. right. Male order situations. >> That's right. >> So, that's data that doesn't exactly. help. Um, but it does shine a light on. that power dynamic as a whole, I think. >> Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't tell the. um Dave mentioned that there were three. um murdered women male male order brides.

in the United States I think between. 2010 and 2020 maybe. And if using the. high um the high number that the uh um. Tahiri Justice Center uses for how many. came over every year, you got 160,000 of. them. So three murders out of 160,000. population is I think 18%. But out of um all the women all the.

married women in America it's like 64. million married women um 17,250. on average died. but were murdered by their partner in. that same time which is 2.6%. So, I probably got the math wrong, but. if it is right, then that means you're. actually less likely to be murdered by. your husband as a male order bride than. you are just as an American woman um who. was married and just part of the general. population. >> So, that's great,

>> right? I think. >> that's one of those stats you can't feel. good about. >> No, exactly. That's a great that is an. excellent point for sure, Chuck. I mean, I think if anybody shines a light that. we need to basically do away with um. spousal murder, >> I think we can all get behind that, right? >> Yeah. What it is what it does though. again is it makes you think maybe let's. concentrate on the real problems, right? >> And and if that's not if if the mail. order bride situation isn't the real. problem, then we just and we all know.

this, but we we have a real domestic. violence problem in this country anyway. >> Yeah. It's the same thing. What was the. last one we talked about? Oh, the. stranger danger. Or it was like, oh, no, actually your cousin is going to like. rape and murder you way more frequently. than just some strangers. But let's all. concentrate on the stranger. >> Your your spouse is possibly going to. murder you, but let's ignore that and. concentrate on mail order brides being. murdered instead, even if it's just a a. much less of a a chance. Like, that's. the that's the definition of a moral.

panic. And you got to sort those out cuz. they obfuscate important things. >> Yeah. And you know, at the beginning of. the episode, you mentioned uh LGBTQ. rights. Uh that's why we call it mail. order marriages now because in 2013 with. the Supreme Court striking down parts of. the Defense of Marriage Act, uh it. allowed uh and there has been a a you. know since then sort of a a big-time. rise in LGBTQ people um doing the exact. same thing. And a lot of times these.

people in other countries are literally. fleeing for their life because they have. no rights in their own country as uh as. a person from that community. So that's. one of those where you look at and. you're like they they could literally be. saving someone's life by getting them. out of their country over here. >> Yep. That's right. >> And men do it, too. I saw there was a uh. I was curious about mail order husbands. >> Mhm. >> And if that was even a thing. And. apparently Ireland in recent years has. got some of this going on where these.

Irish men. >> are putting themselves out there and. saying, "Hey, >> I'm a strapping young Irish man and I'm. happy to come. >> marry you and live in your country.". >> Very nice. >> That's a thing in Ireland. Did not know. that. >> I had no idea either, but leave it to. Ireland to just try something new. So, good for you, Ireland. >> Good for you. >> Uh, you got anything else on mail order. marriages? I got nothing else. I can. take off my roller skates now. This one. was uh. >> it was there was danger at every turn.

>> I thought you did great. I thought we. did great. It's good. I'm I'm pretty. sure. Oh god, I hope so. Uh well, if you. want to know more about mail order. marriages, go check it out and see what. you think for yourself. Don't take our. words for it. Um and since I said don't. take our words for it, it's time for. listener mail. >> Uh listener mail. This this is a a sad. case. Uh, so a bit of a trigger warning. here. Uh, especially if you lost a. family member to CO, but uh, I had a. back and forth with this gentleman and.

he he really felt strongly about reading. this on the air. Uh, in the name of. getting people vaccinated. Uh, hey guys. Haven't written in in quite some time. Been listening since 2008. You've been. around for so many personal milestones. Uh, even though we've never met. Uh, even though I did ask you the best. question ever at your live show in. Phoenix. Uh, my father taught me how to. play guitar. I've been playing for. nearly 30 years. Because of his. influence, there's never been a question. of uh Gibson or Fender in my family. It's always been clear we're a Fender. family.

>> Uh he played a Strat and I played a. telly. Uh the last this last Tuesday, uh. I said goodbye to my father. CO had done. its job and completely overtaken his. body. After he passed later that day, I. went into my truck and took a few. minutes and decided I needed some Josh. and Chuck to get my mind off of things. And I was absolutely shocked. Uh on that. day, Leo Fender and Les Paul came. through in my feed. >> Nice. >> Uh my father and I did not have uh. anything we bonded over more than our. love of music and playing guitar, an.

affinity for Fender, and a dislike of. all things Gibson. Sorry, Chuck. Uh. there could not have been more perfect. topic to help me through one of the. hardest days of my life. I look forward. to someday when I might be able to shake. your hands after a good handashing and. sanitization. And just thank you for. being with me through so many good days. and so many bad days. and he included a. song that he gave his father that he. wrote for him. It's. >> great. >> And uh this is from Eddie. And Eddie. said, "Please read this on the air." He.

said, "Uh, my mother decided to get. vaccinated uh because of this and they. were not vaccinated." And he said, "Just. please send the message out to people. that it can happen to you and your. family and just go out there and get. that vaccination already.". >> Thanks for that, Eddie. Um, and. definitely our condolences on your. father's passing. I'm really sorry to. hear that. >> U, but I'm glad we could bring you a. little measure of comfort at a terrible. time. So, thank you for letting us know. about that. >> And also, thank you for telling. everybody to get vaccinated because.

that's a pretty good thing to use your. position for. >> Um, so I think like Eddie said, go get. vaccinated. Yeah, we said it. Go get. vaccinated. Okay. Okay. >> Agreed. And in the meantime, if you want. to get in touch with us, you can send us. an email to stuffpodcast@. iheartradio.com. [Music]. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.

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