Selects: How Jim Henson Worked | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Good morning everyone. I hope you are. watching Saturday morning cartoons or. maybe the Muppets because this one is. all about Jim Henson. Uh I'm often asked. what our favorite episodes are when we. do the Q&A at live shows and many many. times I go back to the ones on the. Muppets and Jim Henson because he was. just one of the best. Uh this is from. January 6, 2015. How Jim Henson worked. American Hero. That's not part of the. title. That's just me.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Howdy. And Jerry, for the last time this. year, she's just informed us and she's. all smiles. She is not very nice. Jerry, uh, how'd you like that uh, presentation.

earlier? The sensitivity training. It. was great. Yes. People, because we work. for a corporation, we have uh, things. like sensitivity trainings. Uhhuh. And. in those trainings, you get shown uh, video examples of various forms of. harassment, and they are the best, most. fun things to watch ever. They're pretty. overt. Yeah, I could watch those all day. long. I was wondering how much that. production company made from that. Yeah.

You know, they did what? Like five. little. vignettes. They I'm sure they paid the. actors like literal peanuts. Yeah. They. were bad actors. They're like, "Get. there's the peanut bucket over there. You can pay yourself." Yeah. The old the. one that really got me was the uh. actually they were all really funny, but. the one with the old guy in the uh in. the factory loading boxes like a. shipping uh warehouse and they were. giving the old man a hard time about. everything cuz he was old. Yeah, cuz he. was old and you know he they were giving. a hard time cuz he'd uh he was out of.

work for a while and they'd had to cover. for him, right? The old man. And he had. the back brace on. Did you notice that? And he just the look on his face, he. just kept getting a little more like. pouty the whole time. Yeah. I was like, "Dude, that's good acting. Stick up for. yourself. Tell these young kids, you. know, what to do. The back brace. prevents him from it." Anyway, I just. had to bring that up cuz I I just think. that stuff is so funny. And what's funny. is people really do that some of that. stuff that you're like, "What?" Yeah. There's some creeps out there. Yeah. Um.

that was a really weird setup for Jim. Henson cuz he's the least harassy guy he. was probably ever. Yeah, he certainly. comes across that way. He's a genuinely. good dude. It's not one of these stories. you hear about like uh maybe some of. your favorite children's books writers. or cartoonists or something maybe were. kind of bad people. No, apparently not. at all. Yeah. Um he was not only So. there's a lot of quotes in this article.

John No, John I thought John Strickland. wrote it. It turns out that's not the. case. I'm surprised. Yeah. Um because. he's friends with or down with at least. one of Jim Henson's kids. Oh, really? Who I believe lives here in Atlanta. Oh, wow. And but in this article, it's one. of those things where everybody who. compliments Jim Henson who worked with. him, they they go to the trouble of. complimenting him in a way that's not. just like, "Oh, he was such a great. guy." Yeah. They all back up just a.

little bit because they're cognizant. that that doesn't get it across. Sure. And they want you to understand that. they're talking about more than just the. great guy. Like right, oh, he's dead and. I'm not going to speak ill of the dead. and he was a great guy. And that's a. really thoughtless, polite, inoffensive. thing to say. Sure. So, like Frank Oz. said something like he he was a he was a. a a great. guy, but at the same time, you know, he. was a human, but he was still a really.

great guy, right? So, like what you're. thinking of is a great guy. Get rid of. that and actually replace it with a. genuine human great guy. Yeah. Because. as a filmmaker, he's a puppeteer. obviously, but he was a filmmaker first. and foremost, which a lot of people kind. of forget about. Yeah. Um Did did you. watch any of these? Oh, yeah. Uh, that's. a tough tough job. Super stressful. And. you and I have seen it can make good. guys and good ladies be real jerks and.

yell under stressful situations. You. know, it's it's it's a tough thing. There's a lot of money on the line each. day. And uh yeah, it's like everybody. relax. It's just millions of dollars. But Frank Oz, I think that's the point. he was making. Like even when he would. get frustrated and stressed like that, it was he was still a good guy behind it. all. Yeah. And I read a I read an I. guess it was a book review of a. biography about him that that showed. that it was all somebody said it was all. just play to him. Yeah. Like work was.

play. Yeah. Even though he worked really. hard, he was able. to commit himself like that to his work. because to him he was having the time of. his life. Yeah. All the time. And. apparently like there was just there was. no line between work and play which now. that we've seen that sensitivity. training right could have gotten him in. a lot of big you know a lot of trouble. but he um he he just enjoyed the life. that he had from what I understand loved. cars. Yeah. He had like a Lotus that was. the same color as Kermit the Frog. Um he.

had a Rolls-Royce early on from his. work. Yeah. Um let's talk about let's. talk about the guy. Yeah. I mean, if you. haven't I just need to go ahead and say. if you haven't listened to the episode. on the Muppets, um, this is a a what I. consider just a more in-depth part two. on the man himself, right? But that's. one of our favorite alltime episodes and. from feedback, one of the great alltime. fan episodes. Yeah, it was a great. episode. Yeah, it was just a lot of fun.

And so I hope this augments that one. Hope we do it justice. So, um, that's. actually one of the reasons why we can. do this episode because we already did a. Muppets episode. This and they tweeted. about us, too. Remember, the Henson. company did. Yeah, they did. Which was. they approved. It got their actual. approval. That's right. Man, that was. something. Um, the the Muppets episode. is its own thing. It's about Muppets. This is about Jim Henson. And it's. appropriate that we're doing this. because he was more than just the.

Muppets, even though everybody pegs him. with the Muppets. like that is a huge. thing. He was more than that. Like you. said, he was a filmmaker but originally. started out as a a puppeteer but kind of. a reluctant one. Yeah. He was born in uh. 1936, September 24th. Uh James Mari. Henson, M A R Y in Mississippi. and his. grandmother, maternal grandmother, was a. painter and a quilter and a needle. worker and apparently was a big. inspiration to him uh just to seek out.

the creative in life, right? Which is. pretty great. Yeah. Um, and one of the. one of the things he got into, well, he. was originally a kind of a fan of. ventriloquism a little bit, but he he. said later on in life that he was never. he was never like obsessed with puppets. or anything like that like you would. have expected him to be. And as he went. to college, I think in Maryland, he uh. he got into he started out as a studio.

artist. That's what he was studying. Yeah. He loved television above all else. from the time he was a little kid. He. was just transfixed by the tube. He. almost kind of made himself destined to. be on television by being obsessed with. it. Yeah. But. um he kind of stumbled into puppetry uh. in college and he started out as a. studio art major and ended up graduating. with a homec degree because homec was. the only degree that offered puppet.

making courses. Yeah. He he majored uh. or he took a puppetry course at first. and uh then a bunch of textiles and. crafts courses which is a great way to. you know start building and making your. own puppets right so but he graduated. with a homec degree but by the time he. graduated he was already extremely. successful the um the uh Rolls-Royce. that I mentioned he bought in time to. drive to his college graduation. Yeah. because he'd already created successful.

shows. um in his town. Yeah. I think he was a. in high school he was on the local TV. station uh doing little guest spots and. then uh in. 1955 the show Salmon Friends uh debuted. and that uh you know he also did work on. the side making money with um I think he. did some of the like really cool concert. posters of the day, right? really color. colorful silk screen posters and Sam and. Friends did really well. H but he still. wasn't quite sure like I still don't.

know if I want to you know I'm a. filmmaker. I did these short films. really sort of weird abstract short. films live action experimental to. totally experimental. Did you see the. time piece? Oh yeah, that one was pretty. cool. It was great. Um in its way. And. did you see the cube? Uh I watched parts. of the cube. That was Did you see the. end? No. Oh, you got to see the end. I. skipped the middle because I was like, "Okay, I I get where you're going with. this." Yeah. Well, we should just set it. up real quick. The Cube was a show on.

NBC. It was a one-hour show um in 1969. The name of the show NBC did was called. uh Experiment and Television. It was a different thing each week. And. he had one week's installment called The. Cube, which was a guy just stuck in a. white room, but other people could come. in and out of the room, but he could. not. Right. Yes. Okay. and he starts to. go kind of crazy and it has the look and. feel of a color TV ad. um like lots of. overacting and like Carol Bernettesque.

characters and stuff like that, but the. the sentiment behind it and like the the. everything behind it is really neat and. it really gives you a good. an eyeopening example of like what Jim. Henson was capable of, but also like. what he was into because Yeah. You know, when you think of him, you think of. Muppets and Sesame Street in particular. Sure. And these are weird abstract art. films. Um, not unlike, you know, you.

watch like a Jim Morrison art film from. film school. And it's kind of the same. style, you know, that was what was going. on back then. Yeah. And he actually got. nominated for an Academy Award for Time. Piece. Uh, I think Jim Henson Jim Henson. had Jim Morrison beat by a mile as far. as experimental films went. Yeah, I'll. agree with you there. Um, so like I said, he wasn't quite. convinced that puppetry was his future. because he was a filmmaker and he was. like puppets are still kind of kid.

stuff, right? But, uh, post college, he. did the old tour of Europe and in Europe. puppeteering is a whole different. business. It was a lot more serious um, and a lot more, um, I guess it was. treated as art. Yeah, exactly. And he. said, you know what, I I am going to. give this a shot. came back to the US, uh, married uh, Jane, and even though he. and Jane separated, they never divorced. Uh, Oh, really? I thought they did. No, they never, uh, fulfilled the divorce. They just stayed separated. Okay. And um.

then he started making TV commercials. and formed his own company in 1963 with. I don't know if he formed it with Frank. Ez, but he hired Frank Ez and Jerry Juel. who ended up being uh obviously. legendary puppeteers and lifelong. collaborators of his. Yeah. Yeah. But he. started out making a basically a. puppetbased commercial ad agency in New. York in in 1963. Yeah. And they weren't making funny. commercials back then. So he was really. pretty revolutionary at the time and.

they I mean they did pretty well for. themselves and one of the smartest moves. he made early on was all of his contract. said that he retained the rights to any. of the creations he made for these. companies. Yeah. So he was creating what. some of the things that would later. become famous muppets like the Cookie. Monster was originally made for a chip. maker and was this puppet that couldn't. get enough of these chips. Yeah. He was. the wheel stealer and he stole cheese. wheels. Yeah. Okay, that's what it was.

Yeah. Um and he ended up being the. Cookie Monster. And the reason he ended. up being the Cookie Monster is because. Jim Henson retained the rights to that. creation. That was he was a very savvy. business guy, too. Yeah. And he was he. was using somebody else's dime, these. these advertisers Yeah. like budgets to. kind of hash out and form and make his. Muppets. Yeah. Ralph the Dog started out. on Pyina commercials and was later a. sidekick on the Jimmy Dean show in 1963,

which I remember that from the Muppets. episode. Ralph was the first big Muppet. Then it's he's such like a bit character. now. Yeah. That you know, it's just. mindboggling to think he was the one. that started it all. Even before Kermit, before Big Bird, it was Ralph. Kermit. kind of stole the show, I think. Yeah. We'll talk a little more about Kermit. and where he came from right after this. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

All right. So, it's 1969 and a very, very big thing happens to Jim Henson. uh. he was invited to be uh on the pilot of. a show created by the children's. television workshop uh called Sesame. Street. And he did not create it. Some.

people think he did, but he did make his. mark by creating uh most of the iconic. characters. And if you were a fan of the. old Sesame Streets back then, all not. all, but many of those little short. films, the little claimation ones or the. live action ones, he directed those as. well. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. I. never knew that. I think I knew that. Did you? Yeah. He was the He was our. Russ Vic. No, he was their Russ Vic. That's right. Russ Vic is ours. That's. right. So, um, Chuck, uh, the the whole.

thing that changed everything for him. was Sesame Street. Yeah. He's not a He. wasn't a creator of Sesame Street. They. hired him on. Yeah. And they actually. kind of won him over because remember. one of the things that Jim Henson always. struggled with his whole career was he. wanted. to explore places that puppets had never. really gone to. Right. In themes that. they hadn't gone to at least not in mo. the modern age. Sure. Um but he was.

fighting against them not being taken. seriously. Yeah. It wasn't like he was. anti-puppet by any means. He was or. anti- kids. Mhm. Cuz one of the big. reasons he signed on with Children's. Television Workshop was their goal to. educate kids meant a lot to him. But um. like you said, I think to merge those. worlds successfully was a big part of. his goal, right, and struggle for a. little while. Uh Russ Vic, by the way, made the little interstitial things for.

the Stuff You Should Know television. show. Yeah. The animations, which is why. I reference him. Yeah. So the children's. television workshop, which is now called. the Sesame Workshop. Yeah. From what I. understand, they won him over big time. He makes all of these characters from. like Big Bird and I think Kermit came. before Sesame Street. And he started out. I think we talked about this in the. Muppet episode, too. He started out. looking really weird. Yeah. Like a. lizard almost. Yeah. And not cool at. all. Like really kind of freaky. Yeah. Which is something that I now that I.

know a little more about Jim Henson, I. think maybe he might have even been. going for. Right. But one of the things. that Sesame Street allowed him to do was. to really kind. of explore something that he'd long been. obsessed with, which was television, and. where it converged with puppets, which. was all new territory. And Jim Hansen. was at the bleeding edge of it. Oh, yeah. Because if you think about it, when you go to a puppet show live, you. know, you're you're looking at what's.

essentially a mechanism for hiding the. human, and there's just a little area. that the puppet can move around in. Well, little tiny fake stage. Yeah. Yeah. So Jim Henson stepped back and. said, "Okay, the television is that. little tiny area that the puppet can. stay can move around in." Yeah. But it. also opens up the whole world for a. puppet because you're using camera. angles and there's editing and it's not. in person. Yeah. Just frame out the. people. So, and again, we talked about.

this in the Muppet episode. He created. something called platforming up. Yeah. To where the the puppeteers no longer. had to like crouch down and and to to to. maneuver the puppets. Yeah. Cuz he was a. tall guy. Yeah. Tall and lanky, man. He. was skinny. Oh, those running shots in. time piece. Exactly. Cuz he was in it. They were hysterical. Yeah. And he. weighs about 70 pounds somehow. His big. lanky legs. But um so yeah, the. performers could stand up which was a. huge weight off. Yeah. But at the same.

time because you're working with cameras. and stuff like that and they have the. whole universe to move around in and Jim. Henson wanted them to move around as. much as possible. It also put them in. some weird positions. Yeah. If you ever. uh well, some people might think it's. like kind of ruining the thing, but I. think it's really neat if you if you. just look up on Google images muppets. Muppet Show behind the scenes pictures. Yeah. And it'll show the the stage sets, you know, like uh 6 feet off the ground, right? And all the people standing.

beneath. Um I think it's awesome to look. at, but some people don't like, you. know, they want to keep that illusion. alive, right? So depending on what kind. of person you are, either seek that out. or don't. And we gave that warning in. the Muppets episode, too, did we? Yeah. Yeah. I think they're really cool. pictures. I agree. Because, you know, a. lot of times they're looking at uh. they're looking at video monitors um. standing there contorted using both. hands, right? Um, like I the way puppeteers work. together to me is is just a miracle.

because they're acting as the puppets. but they're moving still moving among. one another as humans right underneath. which can be really complicated. We in. fact we know some really really talented. puppeteers here in Atlanta. Yeah. The. Center for Puppetry Arts is I think the. nation's largest puppet puppeteer. organization. Yep. And that is where we. had our TV show debut party, premiere. party. Yeah. Like it was a really cool. experience. Like EMTT Otter and the gang.

are right there on display. I think the. Henson and Kermit cut the ribbon for the. grand opening. Yeah. Uh back when it. opened and um ended up donating like 500. puppets and muppets, right, to the. Center for Puppetry Arts. So if you ever. visit Atlanta, people always email us. and say, "What should we do?" I highly. recommend going and checking out the. Center for Puppetry Arts. Yeah. cuz they. have a museum with like you said EMTT. Otter. Oh man, all sorts of cool stuff. Like a full size lifesize skeksy. Yeah. Behind glass. Scary as you can imagine.

Yeah. But I was talking about Raymond. Carr, our friend who uh I hate to keep. bringing up the TV show, but it all kind. of overlaps. He was a production. designer for uh Stuff You Should Know on. Science Channel. Yeah. And he and his. friends uh Brandon and the gang are. amazing puppeteers and they're doing. some really really leading edge like. cool stuff here in Atlanta. Yeah. like. these giant puppets operated like you. know 15 foot tall puppets operated by. like six and eight people. Uh have you. ever seen the spaceman that they do? No. Oh man, it's unbelievable. It's really.

cool. It's like I don't know how tall he. is. He seems like he's 20t tall and uh. they you know do these at parades and. stuff and it's just really really cool. stuff. That's awesome. Yeah. But Henson. is a huge inspiration to them obviously. Oh yeah. I think anybody who works even. remotely in puppets has got to be. inspired by Jim Henson. He's the man. Um, one of the other things that he came. up with was that was based on putting. muppets or puppets on TV was using. softer materials. Yeah. Uh, everything. else was like up to that point stiff.

wood marionets, ventriloquist dummies, that kind of stuff, right? He used like. foam and it allowed the the the puppets. themselves to have more expressive. faces, which is great for close-up on. TV. Yeah, absolutely. And it also I mean. you now looking back you just are like. well yeah of course it's what puppets do. that's what I know but that was Jim. Henson that came up with that and it. changed everything because it it took. something like I mean imagine Howdy.

Duty. It was like yeah it's cool you. know it's Howdy Duty or whatever but. whether closeup or far away he looked. exactly the same. It was like a wood. head with like a moving lower jaw and. you know he gave you nightmares. with Kermit the Frog or something like. that. The fact that he could have. different expressions and react. differently and and his emotions could. be shown on his face that made him that. much more popular, that much more. approachable. Sure. Uh to people who are. into him. Absolutely. Which is.

everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Show me someone. who doesn't like Muppets in any form. I. get it if you don't like it anymore. maybe, but your heart is cold and dead. inside. Um, for a while, and this is. something I don't think I knew, uh, he. dabbled on Saturday Night Live in season. 1. Uh, Lauren Michaels got him a deal to. perform some sketches and, uh, ultimately it wasn't a huge success and. it wasn't the greatest marriage, but it. was pretty cool that he was, uh, seeking.

out, you know, different avenues to get. those puppets on television. It was. And. his big break came um in 1975. He had a. he wanted to make the Muppet Show and he. had a lot of trouble in the US still. Yeah. Even though he had his various. successes on commercials and stuff. Uh. so he had to go to London and a TV. producer named Lord Lou Grade gave him a. deal with Grades ATV Studios and said, "You know what? You can make your show.". Uh and the Muppet Show was born. Oh.

yeah. Bada bing, bada boom. That was it. That was it. And um you can really see. Jim Henson's love of variety shows and. just kind of um well just the stage. uh in the Muppet Show because if you. think about it, it's set the whole thing. set backstage at a variety show. It's. such a great idea when you look back at. it. Like we took it for granted a little. bit because we were kids, but now as an. adult it's like what a perfect way to. frame this world is it's basically like.

30 Rock or 30 Rock was the Muppet Show, right? Where the Muppet Show started all. that. Yeah. I don't know if Carol. Bernett was before the Muppet Show. Yeah, it was before. Was it? Yeah. So, she did a lot of backstage stuff, didn't. she? Uh I wonder who started that. I. don't know. I mean, hers was more. sketch. Yeah, but some of it was like. backstage. Was it? I believe so. No, I. don't remember that. Um, unless I'm. hallucinating right now. They need to. have a good oldfashioned variety show.

again. Yeah, they don't have those. anymore. Those were big back in the day, you know, like a host comes out and then. there's sketches and singing and. remember our cabaret? No, it wasn't. Cabaret. What was it? The episode we. did? Oh, uh, Burlesque. Burlesque. Yeah. Yeah. how that started out in vaudeville. and burlescad. That's where standup. comedy came from. That was an. interesting episode. Yeah, I miss those. variety shows though, like the Kenny. Rogers and Dolly Parton and uh Yeah, Kale Bernett, all the the Van Drill.

Sisters. Although Kenny and Dolly could. just sit on a couch and stare at the. camera for an hour and I'd watch that. Yeah, just the best. Great entertainers. Yeah, love those two. Um All right, so. where are we in our timeline? Well, Chuck, the Muppet Show has just. hit. Oh, that's right. Things are going. pretty well. They have been going pretty. well already for Henson. Apparently, in. 1970, Rubber Ducky hit number 16 on the. Billboard charts. And for those who. don't know, uh, Ernie is voiced by Jim.

Henson. So, Jim Henson sang a song, Rubber Ducky, that made it to number 16. on the Billboard charts. That was 1970, a year after The Cube. Before the Muppet. Show even happened, before Sesame Street. even, right? No, Sesame Street was 69, I. think. Okay. Yeah. Same year as The. Cube. Wow. That's crazy. That's the new. Touchstone for his life. The Cube. Yeah. PC and BC. Um, so The Muppet Show was a. was a huge hit. It won uh, you know, a.

lot of awards. It garnered critical. praise and won the hearts of children. all over the world. Uh, but it was also. for adults, too. Oh, yeah. I think. that's why he was able to pull it off in. Great Britain because they have better. senses of humor. Yeah. And speaking of. adults, uh, he got into some more. serious themes with his next great show, Fraggle Rock. Yeah. In 1983, I never saw. a second of that show. Oh, man. Really? Wasn't it on HBO? Yeah, it was one of. the first HBO original series. And we.

either had Showtime or we didn't have. HBO. Yeah. Uh, it was awesome. Fraggle. Rock was great. And uh the idea there is. you had the the Fraggle gang and then. you had well you you had three different. groups. You had uh the home of Doc who. was an inventor and his dog Sprocket. Um. you had the Fraggles who shared caves. underground uh of Fraggle Rock with uh. their neighbors the Doozers and the. Gorgs and these gigantic creatures uh.

that are in Gorg's garden. And the whole. point of that show was to show how. different types of people can live. together and work together in peace, right? It was really cool. Didn't know. it at the time when I was, you know, 12. years old. But what I was learning about. was acceptance and, uh, he won three. cable ace awards, uh, five international. Emmys, and Fraggle Rock was, uh, one of. the first big hits for HBO as far as TV. goes. Yeah. Great, great show. lots of. great songs that I mean he had every. kind of like he had reggae rock,

country, bluegrass. He was all over the. map with the music on Fraggle Rock. Uh. and he I mean he wrote a lot of songs. too. I think he wrote Rubber Ducky. I'm. sure he wrote a lot of the stuff on. Fraggle Rock. It was just yet another. thing he did was write music. Renaissance man. Um the other show that. he came out with in the 80s in the mid. 80s that I was big time into was Muppet. Babies. I never saw one second of that. Man, I love that show. Yeah, we're just. enough apart in age where like uh. certain things I saw you I was you were.

too young for and then certain things I. was too old for. You know what's weird. though? I'm just going to say this. So. Yumi and I are the same age. Her sister. is like 5 years younger than us. And I. used to love Muppet Babies. Yeah. Yumi's. sister used to watch Muppet Babies. So. Yumi was like, "Why were you watching. Muppet Babies if my younger sister was. watching Muppet Babies?" And Yumi didn't. watch Muppet Babies. No, she watched. like Donna or something like that. I. watched Muppet Babies and I'm not. ashamed anymore to say it. Well, when. was that? 1984. I was 13. So, yeah, I.

was just I was starting to be a. teenager. Muppet Babies didn't appeal. I. think it was on for like four or five. seasons. So, maybe I was watching it at. the beginning of the series and was. watching it. That's what I've been. telling Yumi. In ' 84, you would have. been uh what eight? Oh, yeah. That's. perfect age for Muppet Babies. So, I. think I think we just saw it on. different ends of the series is what it. was. Is that what it is? Um, but have. you ever heard of Ron Funches? Uh, yeah. The comedian. Yeah. Yeah. He has a. little bit about Muppet Babies that's. pretty hilarious. Oh, really? Yeah. He's.

awesome. Love that guy. Yeah, we saw him. live. He's just a beautiful human being. Um, Muppet Babies was cartoon though, right? Right. It was not live puppets. Correct. At all. No, it was cartoon. Okay. It was so cute. Were they just the regular Muppets as. babies? Yes. Oh, well, I'll have to. watch that sometime. Yeah. And they like. used their imagination and like Gonzo. had a thing for Indiana Jones, so he was. frequently like exploring caves and like. swinging on vines with a Indiana Jones.

fedora on and that kind of stuff. Well, see, I would probably enjoy that now. You would? Yeah, definitely. All right, I'm going to go get Muppet Babies. Chuck, he did even more TV that we'll. talk about in a second. Okay. Okay. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

Okay. And we're back and we're still in. the 80s. That's right. And you were. talking about other TV. Uh, as we said, the man loved television and film making. and so he got away from the Muppets and. puppets every now and then. Uh, collaborated with uh, Raymond Scott who. was an electronica pioneer actually on. shorts called Ripples and Wheels That. Go. Uh, and he did that for the Montreal.

Expo in ' 67. Right. And I know we're. jumping around in time, but we're just. trying to paint the full picture here, not going necessarily in order. Mhm. And. then he also did this cool thing called. the floating face, which uh was a sketch. that was on the Tonight Show and the. Mike Douglas show in the '60s. Um which. Did you see any of that? A little bit. It was a little weird. Uh it was like. two eyes and a mouth and there were like. these invisible wires. and background images and it was it was. definitely a little more on that surreal. tip, right? The Henson surreal tip. Yeah. not kidtoriented.

necessarily, but he got into the movies. with the Muppet movie, which was a big. hit. So good. It still holds up, man. It's still so great. If you want to know. more about that movie and just some of. the cool facts from it, go again, listen. to the Muppet episode. Yeah. As a matter. of fact, pause this, go listen to the. Muppet episode, and then come back to. this one. Yeah. It'll probably enhance. your experience. Agreed. Or listen to. them both at the same time. Uh but he. followed the Muppet uh in 1982 he made.

the Dark Crystal. Yeah. Which was uh. puppets and it was based on um some. drawings by fantasy artist Brian Fraud. and um there were no humans. It was all. puppets and I don't think it holds up as. well, but it still looks pretty good. Well, yeah, I think it actually is. probably better received now than it was. originally. Yeah, I think critics. appreciated it, but it didn't do so well. at the box office, but now it's become. like kind of a cult classic for sure.

Yeah. Um, and one of the reasons. why it didn't do that well at the box. office is because audiences didn't quite. know what to make of it. They heard. Frank Oz, who co-directed it, right? Jim. Henson, uh, and Muppets, and I think. they went expecting the Muppet movie. This is 1982 and they they they got the. dark crystal instead which is really. dark. A lot of the like the theme is you. know good versus evil and it's the evil. in it is really really evil. Yeah. And.

the stuff that happens to some of the. puppets is including really cute. puppets. Yeah. Is really horrifying. And. um I read this awesome quote by Frank Oz. and basically he says like Jim thought. it was okay to scare kids. As a matter. of fact, he thought it wasn't healthy. for kids to never be scared. So like he. purposefully was trying to scare kids. and he he he wanted to take uh the. tradition back to like grim fairy tales.

which were very very dark and graphic. That's a good point. That's what he was. going for with the dark crystal. Yeah. I. think it was ahead of its time for sure. Yeah, if you look at some of these uh. like some of the CGI movies today, I. think that Dark Crystal was a precursor. to a lot of those, right? Uh then he. went on to make the movie La uh The. Labyrinth with Bowie, right? Yeah. David. Bowie and a very Tom Cruz young Jennifer. Connelly. No, that was Legend. Oh, okay. Um good movie. Uh but this was um. written by Terry Jones of Monty Python.

fame and then rewritten a bunch by a. bunch of other people including. executive producer George Lucas. Mhm. Um, Labyrinth was okay, not bad. Again, not a huge hit uh for Henson though as. far as movies go, but he was still out. there exploring these cool fantastical. worlds and fantasy worlds. And he still. had a lot of cred um even in the late. 80s. Uh if you think about it, his. heyday was the late 70s, early 80s with. the Muppet Show, the Muppet movies. And.

then after that, it was like, "Yeah, I'll try this with Jim Henson. I'll try. this with Jim Henson." Yeah. Um, and. even even still he had like a a he was. on a pretty great streak and at the end. of the 80s he had two TV shows on the. Jim Henson Hour. Yeah. And storytell the. storyteller. Yeah. The Jim Henson Hour. He was always pushing the boundaries. The Storyteller looking back now or I'm. sorry Jim Henson Hour looking back was. really different from what you were. getting at the time cuz it was it was. all over the map. You had certain shows.

that were like, you know, four or five. sketches in one and then three of the. episodes were full on one hour little. mini movies. Oh, really? From Yeah. From. beginning to end. Yeah, that's a good. point, actually. Um, one of the uh. little mini movies was called Dog City, which was great. It was narrated by. Ralph and it was I remember watching. this. It was like a a film noir gangster. thing with with puppet dogs. Yeah. Uh, and the main character, Ace U, was uh,

the guy who did Elmo, Kevin Clash, did. uh, the character of Aceu, and that was. fantastic. I think Dog City went on to. be a TV show in its own right, too. Okay. For a little while, but it was. really good. I mean, it's total like. gangster crime film noir, but it's, you. know, Ralph the dog and the gang. I love. Ralph. It's really cool. Um, the. storyteller I hadn't seen before. I was, I guess, aware of, but I don't know why. I wasn't watching it because it would. have been like right there for me. Yeah. Cuz I would have been 12 in 1988, but I. watched one today and it was really.

good. It's like human um puppet. interaction. Yeah. Which is And it's. just seamless. Like there's one of the. things from studying this that I've. realized is like we take for granted and. expect our puppet human interactions to. be so seamless that we don't even. realize that we're looking at puppets. right then. And the reason why we expect. that is because of Jim Henson and the. people he worked with and and inspired. to to work so hard at creating that.

illusion. Well, yeah. The illusion that. these are living breathing things. Uh he. would go I remember uh Kermit as guest. on talk shows, right? He wouldn't go out. as Jim Henson. He would go out as I mean. he did those appearances as well, but. Kermit the Frog would be a guest on the. Tonight Show with Johnny Carson or host. or host the guest host the Tonight Show. and Larry King. Yeah. And it it was all. a part of this um uh goal of making. these real people, right? Or real living.

things, not people. Yeah. Apparently, somebody who was working with uh Jim. Henson was I guess a director of the. Muppet Show would be giving Jim notes on. Kermit and Jim would just respond like. let Kermit respond. That would freak. out. And the director said eventually. you're just sitting there. You turn and. you address Kermit like he'd just force. you into like interacting with the. puppet even like during a notes session. Yeah. And probably without feeling silly. or stupid or anything, you know, it. probably seemed like a totally normal.

thing to do eventually once he forced. you to do it. Uh he also pioneered the. uh Henson performance control system and. won an Academy Award for that and that. was a a remote control system that uh. helped puppeteers out. So he he was. always pushing technical uh visual um. stylistic thematic boundaries as far as. he could. Um, and they didn't always. work. You know, the movies weren't, aside from the Muppet movie, they. weren't the biggest hits. Um, the TV. show, a couple, you know, neither one of.

those lasted very long. Yeah. But I. think he was he was just intent on doing. something different. Yeah. He uh and he. did too. And he died in 1990 of a staff. infection. Organ failure brought on by a. staff infection. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah, I think pneumonia had uh. something to do with it, too, didn't it? Not that I saw. Oh, really? I saw organ. failure caused by a group A strep. infection. I'm sorry. Not staff. Very.

sad. And if you're ever in the mood for. a good cry, watch the Jim Henson. memorial where Big Bird sings It's Not. Easy Being Green. Yeah. Tough stuff, people. uh his children um his legacy. lives on through uh in 1993 Jane uh his. wife uh formed founded the Jim Henson. legacy to preserve his contributions. share them with the public and like I. said he donated 500 puppets to the. center of puppetry arts and uh there is.

also the Jim Henson Memorial and Muppet. Museum and traveling exhibits and his uh. sons and daughters help run his. foundation and some of them. themselves and run the company. The. company has changed hands a lot. Um I. have sort of the boring history. When he. was still alive, he was going to sell it. to Disney for 150 million. Yeah. Cuz. apparently he believed in Disney's. commitment to characters. So he thought. like that would be a good place for the.

Muppets to live. Yeah. And Disney went. he bought it. Yeah. Uh but he did not. get that deal uh finished. But it turns. out 150 million was chump change. Uh. because in 2000 his children sold the. entire company including the Sesame. Street characters to a German media. company for 680 million. Wow. And then I. believe that company fell on hard times. and they bought it. back in 2003 for 84. million. What isn't that crazy? Wow. The.

Henson children are smart. And in. between all that, there are various. exchanges of percentages of stakes with. other companies and rights of certain. characters. Uh it's a little dull to go. over all of that, but needless to say, they made up pretty well. And eventually. Disney now does. Uh they do own all the. Muppet studio. They own the Muppets that. apparently the Henson company sold the. rights to the Sesame Street characters. to Sesame Street, which is pretty cool. Yes. And the Jim Henson Creature Shop.

still builds the Sesame Street puppets. and Muppets. Yeah, it says they sold the. rights to the Muppets and Bear and the. Big Blue House characters, which I'm not. familiar with that one. Nor am I. But. Disney wanted uh I guess that's sort of. the the player to be named later. That's. included in the in the baseball trade. Right. Man, I'm proud of the Henson. kids. Yeah, they're great. And uh I hope. we get tweeted about this one from them. They seem uh they seem pretty great. Brian and uh Cheryl and the gang, they.

seem like they're doing right by the. dad. And there's other siblings, too. And I think they're all involved. Yep. Super involved. And sadly, Jane uh. passed away, I think, in 2013. Yeah. At. the age of 78. I would have loved to. have seen what kind of work he did later. in his life. Oh, yeah. The fact that he. died in 1990, still had like a couple of. TV shows going. I mean, he's 53 years. old. Yeah. A lot of work left in him. Uh if you want to know more about Jim. Henson, go listen to our Muppets. episode. And uh while you're looking.

that up, you can also uh search Jim. Henson on the search bar at house. stuffworks.com. I'll bring up this great. article. And uh since I said search bar, it's time for listener. mail. Uh this is I'm going to call this. sophomore smart sophomore. Hey guys, my. name is Matt and I'm a sophomore in high. school. Smart sophomore. I'm a newer fan. in the show and I listen while I do. everything. Just want to say the dark. ages were only dark in Europe. The life. expectancy in the dark ages was actually.

a little longer than before, but uh. mostly because there were smaller wars, but things were certainly brighter in. the Islamic world. In fact, people in. the Middle East were really enlightened. during this time. Within about a 100. years, they conquered a lot of new land, including Spain. Also, the Arabic. language grew to be the language of. philosophy, medicine, and poetry. and. Baghdad became the world's center of. scholarship. They translated almost all. of the famous Greek philosophers work. into Arabic. Uh Muslim Muslims developed. uh algebra to simplify inheritance laws.

and they made important strides in. trigonometry to help people find a way. to Mecca. Architecture grew too. Uh the. great mosque in Spain only took roughly. a year while medieval cathedrals took. hundreds of years to build. Wow. So the. dark ages weren't that dark and the. enlightenment came earlier than most. think. And that is from Matt. Thanks, Matt. That is enlightening stuff, my. friend. Yeah, our numerals are Arabic. Yeah, it's true. We should uh we should. hit on some more Middle Eastern topics. Let's do it, man. Yeah. Uh in the.

meantime, if you want to suggest some. Middle Eastern topics for us, you can. send us an email to. stuffodcastworks.com. And as always, hang out at our beautiful home on the. web, stuff you should know.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].