Selects: How Free Range Parenting Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey guys, Josh here and for this week's. select, I chose our April 2019 episode. on freerange parenting. This was an. episode that I initially approached with. some preconceptions and they turned out. to be quite wrong. Um, I was raised with. quite a bit of freedom and I assume that. parents still kind of raise their kids. in that manner, but it turns out that. they don't and even more to the point. that's basically illegal these days. Fortunately, there's a movement pushing.

back against that, and I'm all for it. See what you decide in this great. episode of Stuff You Should Know. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and there's Jerry over there and. this is stuff you should know about.

kids. Can I COA right off the bat here? >> I presumed you would. >> All right. There's a couple of COAs I. want to issue. One, we are not telling. anyone how to parent their children. >> Indeed. Uh and two we realize that the. whole concept of free range uh parenting. that will follow. >> is uh comes from a place of extreme.

privilege. >> Uh yes. >> to be able to entertain the idea of. freerange parenting comes from a place. of extreme privilege. >> Okay. I can I amend that or should I. wait until we talk about that part to. kind of amend it? >> No, you can amend it. So, so to me, freerange parenting, having the freedom. to freerange parent is it it what I saw. it ties in with parenting that's already. being done by people who might not have.

a choice. Are you saying that the the um. the the ability to choose whether you. want to freerange parent or not is. privileged? >> Yes. >> Okay. Yes, agreed. I gota. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and again, we'll. get into that, but um we'll we'll get. into that at the end, but I just want to. just go ahead and lead that off because. it's um a lot of privilege involved with. being able to say, you know, that you. want a free-range parent. >> Are you going to are you going to land. one way or another on it?

>> On whether or not I support freerange. parenting? >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah. I mean, Emily and I don't title. it or say, "Hey, I think we should do. this as a style.". >> Uhuh. But we um as it turns out are sort. of dabbling in freerange parenting a bit. as much as you can for a three and a. halfyear-old. >> So you're listening to your instincts. >> Ne I've never read a parenting book. Not. knocking them but I've never read one.

We parent by instinct. And uh our. daughter has always had a lot of room to. free play and explore and figure stuff. out on her own and fall down and get. back up and all that all that stuff. >> Okay, I'm reading between the lines. You. guys haven't decided yet. >> All right. So, ready? Free range. parenting. Go. >> Okay. So, um do you remember when we. were kids, >> Chuck? Yeah. >> Back when we used to hang out when we. were kids. >> Mhm. and we would go ride bikes together.

at like um sunrise. We had no idea where. we were going to go, but it might. involve a swamp, could involve a. glacier. Um there may have been like uh. uh rail riding hobos that we shared. lunch with. Who knows what the day was. going to bring, but we were up for all. that and may or may not have engaged in. any of that um during that day. And then. at the end of the day around sunset, maybe a little later depending on. whether it was summer or not, we would.

ride our bikes back home, say, "See you. tomorrow, go to our respective houses, um, and then talk the night away on our. soup cans that were connected by um, a. rope and that was our childhood, right? We turned out okay.". >> Sure. I uh have have talked about my. childhood some growing up, but you know, I grew up in the woods basically. >> on like an couple of acres of land with. a creek and forest, not in a. subdivision, but on a street with like. seven houses in the woods, >> right?

>> And my mother had a um we had this giant. iron bell probably about 18 inches. across the on a mounted on a big um like. telephone pole. >> Yeah. >> Kind of right beside our driveway. and. she would at the, you know, when it was. dinner time in the evening, she would go. pull that bell and you could hear it. from like a mile away this the bell. tolling and that's when Scott and I were. like, "All right, we, you know, it's. time to go eat." Um, after having been.

out all day long with zero supervision. and I had a great mom, like she wasn't. neglectful. This is just how it was. done. >> Yeah. Were you a latch key kid? Um I. know your mom was a teacher, but did she. stay at home with you? >> She didn't go back to teaching. She she. quit teaching to raise kids and then. started up again when I was like uh I. feel like eth or ninth grade or. something like that. >> Okay. Yeah. My mom took off until I was.

I like sixth, seven, I guess like. kindergarten. I guess about first grade when I was. when I started school and she was like, "Okay, I'm going back to nursing." Um, and then after that point, I was a latch. key kid for like the rest of my life, but I had like older sisters who would. be home uh around the time I would and. but I had like my own key to my house. that was just a couple blocks away from. my school and I would walk myself or. ride my bike myself and then I would be. home by myself if my sister was doing.

something else for a couple hours until. either my mom or my dad showed up. Um, and I think I turned out pretty well, too. So, >> I don't know that I even had a house key. ever. Well, you you guys probably didn't. lock your doors if your mom rang a bell. on the telephone pole to call you in for. dinner. >> Yeah, I don't think we locked our door. >> Okay. But but you were you had free. range literally of your your house, your. yard, the woods around you. Um but. here's a really big caveat from what. I've seen. I think a lot of people who.

are like um who who aren't familiar. necessarily of free freerange parenting. assume that we could have done anything. we wanted. >> and gotten away with it because we were. we had overly permissive parents. That's. not that's not the case for me and I. would dare say that wasn't the case for. you as well. That we actually had plenty. of rules and structure. We were just. also given a lot of freedom to to do. things within that rules and structure. including geographic freedom. Right. >> For sure.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, that is what I thought. all kids had up to this time. And I knew. that there was like such things as piano. and Mandarin lessons or um Mandarin. classes, that kind of stuff. Like things. that kids were taking more and more and. they were really busy and stressed out. and they had like like um iPhones at age. seven, that kind of thing. But I still thought that this happened. and I was really shocked about as. shocked as I've ever been in researching. an episode of Stuff You Should Know to. find that that is not the case. That not.

only does has this been kind of squeezed. out by other activities, it's actually. become criminalized behavior by society. at large among the parents who are. raising children today. I was blown away. to find this out. I really legitimately. didn't know. >> Yeah. I mean, and getting back to the. activities, I you know, I played some. soccer in high school and then I did. like church sports, which there's not a. lot of I mean, I think we did like maybe. one basketball practice a week. Um, so.

it wasn't like everyday practice and. stuff like that. I never took lessons of. any kind. Uh, like I taught myself. guitar and all that stuff. So like I I I. don't think I literally ever had a. structured. postchool activity in my life. >> Yeah. Did you say church sports? >> Yeah, I played church softball and. basketball. >> Did like everybody win every game? >> No, it was actually fiercely. competitive. >> Oh, okay. I'm just kidding.

>> No, no, no. It was it was it was legit. Like we had a pretty good basketball. team and and the league was pretty. impressive, too. Yeah. But um yeah, I I. don't I don't I never signed I never had. a single class. Like the idea of my mom. having been like, "All right, I'm going. to take you to your violin lesson and. then on the weekends we have gymnastics. and uh whatever else people are doing. these days was just it just it we didn't. do that. She was just like go play.". >> Right. So, so there has been and we'll.

talk about all the reasons why, but. there has been a movement away from the. kind of childhood we had, a very. pronounced one. Um, if you if you look. at, you know, culture is a pendulum. swinging one way or another, it has. swung very far the opposite way to where. kids lives are structured um down to the. minute where they have actual calendars. and schedules that they have to keep up. with because they have so many things. going on. Um and and there has come.

about in reaction to that. a an antithesis basically and it is. nothing more than letting kids grow up. the way that you and I did. Um and that. and it has become so novel in the face. of of the world and the the culture that. we have in raising kids in the United. States now um that it has its own name. It's a movement. They have to go to. court to defend themselves. It's so. weird. But really, if you strip it down.

and look at it, all they're doing is. raising their kids the way you and I and. and Jerry, I'm sure, was was raised. >> Well, yeah. I mean, to a certain degree. Um, but the whole idea, and it's not. just like, I want you to grow up the way. I did. It's what it really is is an. argument that says, you know what, kids. will grow up healthier and happier uh if. they have freedom to play and they have. freedom to fail and freedom to um get in. a playground scrap and to work it out.

with another kid on their own and figure. things out for themselves. They will end. up better people because of this. It's. not, oh, I'm lazy or I have nostalgia. for my childhood. It it's and and you. know there's a lot of research into this. now or some research that says no what. we're doing is is trying to make better. uh future adults by not hovering over my. child scheduling them to death and um. you know every time they fall run over.

pick themselves up and like and you know. rock them to sleep you know if they get. a boo boo. >> right so I sound so judgy I don't mean. that Well, let's let's just take a. second. Let's take a break real quick. and like collect ourselves and then. we'll come back and we'll really get. into what free range parenting is. >> Well, now when you're on the road. driving in your truck, why not learn a. thing or two from Josh and Chuck? It's. stuff you should know. >> You should know.

>> All right. learning things with Chuck and Josh. Stuff you should know. >> Okay, Chuck. So, I think you. demonstrated something that is um has. made freerange parenting very. unpalatable to a lot of a lot of parents. who don't raise their kids that way. and. that it seems to be a reaction um almost.

an in-your-face to some people reaction. or judgment of um that helicopter style. parenting where you're always kind of. around your kid. They're um their entire. life is very structured and supervised. including playtime. Um and that. freerange parenting is meant to be a. reaction to that. And in some ways it is. a reaction to that but it also stands on. its own. And if you step back and look. at it and look at freerange parenting. not as a reaction to helicopter. parenting but as its own thing as its.

own philosophy for how to raise a kid. and you strip away like the judginess. and all that stuff. It it holds up to me. and like you said there's been a lot of. um a lot a lot more study recently but. the whole thing really started back in. uh 2008 um by a journalist. It wasn't a. child psychologist. It wasn't a um a. child development psychologist. It. wasn't a child development, child. analyst, psychologist, none of those. things. I made that last one up, by the. way. It was a journalist named Lenor.

Skenazi. Yeah. So, she uh is a New York mom, and. in 2008, she uh wrote a column for the. New York Son uh called Why I let my. nine-year-old ride the subway alone. She. was in a store one day in Manhattan and. her son had been badgering her to be. able to ride the subway and bus back. home by himself. And finally one day she. said, "All right, great. Let's do this. Here's a subway map. Here's a subway.

card. Here's 20 bucks. Um, here's some. change for a pay phone. Um, have at it.". The kid made it home. Uh, and she said. he was quote ecstatic with independence. >> What a great quote. >> Um, >> yeah. And like she got a lot of blowback. from this from like the judgment goes. both ways. I mean, there were people. that said it was neglect and abuse for. her to do this and let her kid ride the. subway alone. >> Oh. Oh, yes. Yeah. If you had to divide.

the two sides up and start weighing. which one was a little judgier, you. would definitely your hand would be much. lower holding um the helicopter parent. side for sure. Um yeah, if you're a. freerange kid proponent or you raise. your kids following that, there's a. whole burden, a whole social burden that. you have in addition to the burden of. raising your kids that you have to put. up with. For sure. >> Yeah. And I I should point out to you. real quick that it all depends on upon. your kid, too. I don't think there are. any sweeping generalizations.

>> Sure. >> Um my daughter has always been very um. just instinctively kind of safe and. smart about stuff. >> Yeah. >> Um other kids in her class are just like. little wild banshees. And I would. probably be a lot more um worried if she. was the kind of kid who has an instinct. to like jump out of a tree um instead of. like back down very slowly out of a. tree. So, right, it's all it's all. different depending on your kid, you.

know, >> or or a kid who like can't seem to shake. being totally fascinated with matches or. knives or something like that. Yeah, I. think that was a really good point. Like. it's you shouldn't sweep or generalize, but I think that's an even larger point, too. People should be left to raise. their children um how they see fit. >> Yeah. given a certain amount of um trust. invested in the parents that the parent. isn't going to harm the kid or let harm. come to the kid because it's their. parent. Right.

>> Right. >> Okay. So, this whole thing started with. Lenor Skinazi and like you said, she got. a lot of blowback, but she also got a. really positive response too and. actually parlayed the whole thing from. that New York Sun um article into a blog. that she called Freerange Kids. So, from. what I understand, she coined the the. term freerange kids and started writing. about this stuff. And at first, a lot of. it was just like, it's it's good. It's. on its face. It's obvious that this is.

how you should raise a kid. You know, kids need play. They need to learn how. to pick themselves back up when they. fall down. Um, and not only that, you're. doing a disservice to your kid when you. pick them up after they fall down. Um, because they're not learning how to get. back up themselves. Uh, and over time it. kind of went as people became more and. more enamored with her philosophy or. this whole freerange kids idea. um more. child psychologists started weighing in. and the the whole movement kind of took.

the shape and they figured out that for. a parent to kind of see the light as. they as far as they they were concerned, they had to first change the mindset. about what kind of world they were. raising a kid in. Because if you're a. freerange kid parent, um you probably. don't feel as threatened by the world in. general as say a helicopter parent. would. Um ounce for ounce. >> Yeah, for sure. Um I mean when when when.

parents have experimented with this, the. the changes that they've seen in their. kids have been pretty striking. um if. anecdotal um there's this one woman uh. Dana Bloomberg, she's a school counselor. in suburban Chicago. And we should also. point out depends on where you live as. well. If you lived in a very safe suburb. or way out in the country, it's a little. different than uh a kid like in the. middle of the city or something like. that. >> Yeah. But, uh, she gave her kid a lot of. free range, um, starting in the second.

grade and got some neighborhood parents. involved in letting their kids do it. And they said before you know it, they. had this little, you know, little gang. of kids kind of touring around the. neighborhood on their own. And she's. getting all these texts from these. different parents um, saying like what a. big change has happened. >> uh, in their own kid. Uh, one parent. even said it was life-changing for her. daughter. gave her a new sense of. confidence and um that's sort of what. the freerange thing can look like. But.

like you were saying, it all comes down. to a swagging a parent's fear, the. biggest fear, which is my child uh will. get abducted or my child will get um uh. there will be a sexual predator to. target my child or heaven forbid my. child will will get uh kidnapped and. murdered, >> right? because you can understand and. it's really tough to fault somebody who. doesn't want their kid wandering around.

by themselves because they're afraid. that something really bad is going to. happen to their kid. So, kind of the. first step to um to adopting like a. freerange kid attitude is to adjusting. how you see the world. Um, and they. think they think that with there there. are several things like if you it's. really fascinating to me. I love. cultural changes especially when we can. point to different things. Yeah. >> Seemingly unrelated things that all kind. of converge and this change the world in.

ways you never think of. that seems to. have happened to produce today's. helicopter parents or at least to. produce the level of of fear the climate. of fear that the world is an inherently. dangerous brutal um sadistic place that. had that where children have no call to. be wandering around themselves. Um that. that is actually you can trace that back. to a convergence of things that have. happened starting in like the late 70s. and early 80s. Um and in particular,

there were some high-profile. uh. child murder cases basically um that all. kind of took place between 1979 and. 1981. And those really changed a lot of. parents' minds about things. >> Yeah. Um in New York, uh the very sad. story of six-year-old, uh Eaton Pats, um. disappeared and was later found out to. have been murdered. Um John Walsh very.

famously his son Adam um he's the one. that does all the TV shows now. I think. he's on the hunt on CNN now. Yeah. And. really made this his life's work. >> But his son Adam disappeared uh and died. in 1981. Um obviously the Atlanta child. murders. >> um from 79 to 81. And this all converged. around the same time like you were. talking about this these these strange. things aligning. um cable news coming. out. CNN was launched in 1980. Yeah.

>> So all of a sudden you have. >> parents that are uh getting this kind of. constant flow of fear from the news. about their children, >> right? Because so if if a um prior to. cable news, 24-hour news, um if. something happened to a kid somewhere in. in some state, maybe if it were just. particularly egregious or outrageous um. or everything was kind of set up in just. the right way, it would capture the. attention of the national media and you.

would hear about it around the country. But that was really, really rare. And. then second to that, the other place. that you would hear about child. abductions, child mur murders, horrific. like accidents that befell a child would. be locally, right? Like on your local. news that maybe maybe expanded to a. region, maybe the state, but it was. pretty localized. And so if. statistically something like that. happened fairly rarely, you weren't. going to hear about it very often. And. so in your mind, it was a pretty rare.

thing and you weren't afraid of the. world in general. But what a lot of. commentators and a lot of um well some. of the people I ran across in research. um propose is that with cable news that. potential pool of horrible things that. befell kids to talk about um expanded to. the entire nation not just local not. just regional or even state but the. whole nation. So now all the bad things. happening to all the kids around the. nation was potential news fodder. And so.

when you were watching CNN, it seemed. like every other story was about a kid. who had been abducted and killed or. sexually um assaulted uh or any number. of horrible things. And there's really. no way to put it other than that that. kind of stuff keeps people glued to. their televisions. And so it's really in. the best interests of news networks like. CNN to feed people that because while. you're glued to your television, you're. also glued to the ads that they show. too. And so from this model came a.

climate of fear that a lot of people. point to is like this is the source. And. it's not just CNN. CNN gets pointed to. because it was the one that started it. all. That was Ted Turner who came up. with this and started the first 24-hour. cable news network. But all cable news. is guilty of this and became guilty of. it pretty quickly because that's the. model of cable news. Um, and because. cable news laid that foundation and. showed like, oh, you got that kind of. you can really make some revenue,

nightly news tried its best to resist. that kind of thing, but it kind of had. to follow suit a little bit too. So, it. would become more sensational from the. 80s onward as well. Not nearly anything. like cable news, but compared to how it. had been before, it was much more. sensationalized because it was following. that cable news model. And all that put. together created the the foundation of. why people are just scared to death. about the world because we we think that. it's way more dangerous than it actually. is because the statistics are inflated.

by hearing about this stuff all the. time. >> Yeah. And there's another couple of. things that contributed that um Skynazi. has pointed out. Uh one, we live in uh. what she dubs an expert society. So. again, on cable news or on social media, like everywhere you turn, there's. another expert coming out with a new. book they're trying to sell. Uh. basically telling you how you're doing. it wrong as a parent, how you should do. it. Um and then the whole fact that we. live in a very latigious society now. So.

what if uh I want to freerange parent my. kid and they go down and and get their. friend um out of the house and they're. riding bikes and one of them gets hurt? like are their parents gonna sue me. because my kid went and and lured them. into the the mean streets, >> right? Well, yeah, that was another. thing that happened, Chuck. In the 70s, the idea of negligence became really big. and there was what's called like a tort. revolution to where you went from, well, you know, your kid was your kid didn't. know your that that the other kid's arm.

was going to get broken, so you can't. get sued for that to no, that was. negligent and we're going to allow that. more and more case law expanded to to to. make people think like lawyers um. because of it too. >> Dude, when you were a kid was I mean. that must have been a thing because did. you ever have the the lawsuit threat. from another child? >> Yeah, >> that was such a thing like yeah I'm. going to I'm going to kick your butt or. whatever like oh yeah well my dad's. going to sue you for all the money you. got. >> That's right. He's a dentist.

That's so funny, man, to think back in. the 70s, these children threatening. lawsuits on one. >> Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. For like. ripping their shirt or something, any. number of things could could generate a. lawsuit. >> Yeah. >> Um, but in the end, Scanazy says, and. this is, I think, a pretty uh relevant. quote. She said, "All of this stuff. combined uh has convinced parents that. they have to be both omnisient and. omnipotent um because of fear and. monitor every single move that your kid.

makes. So, uh let's take a break and. we're going to come back and talk a. little bit about the the facts about. whether or not your kids are really in. danger out on the streets right after. this." Well, now when you're on the road. driving in your truck, why not learn a. thing or two from Josh and Chuck? It's. stuff you should know. >> Stuff you should know. >> All right. Learning things with Chuck and Josh.

All right, Chuck. So, um, like we were. saying, to to not be just scared to. death, uh, because you're letting your. kid, say, walk home from the park or. something like that unsupervised, you. you have to go through a change of. mindset. Like, you have to stop seeing. uh, the world is a very, very scary. place. And sometimes statistics can be.

actually kind of comforting. So, the. freerange kids movement has really, you. know, made one of its um foundational. support polls. Man, you'd think I would. actually be getting better at this all. this time, but no, >> I love it sometimes to watch you stumble. through something like this. Anyway, they talk a lot about statistics and. crime statistics related to kids in. particular. And when you look at them in. the uh cold hard light of the day, um it.

doesn't seem like it's a very dangerous. world after all. >> Right? If you look at the numbers, um. the National Center for Missing and. Exploited Children uh says that just 1%. of the 27,000 missing children cases are. non-family abductions. And that also includes. like friends and acquaintances. So if. you're talking about literally a. stranger targeting your child and. plucking them off a playground, it is.

exceedingly rare that that happens. >> Yeah. And that so 1% is nonfamily, right? >> Right. But that also doesn't even break. down like if it's a friend of or an. acquaintance of the family or something. like that. So literal strangers. snatching your kid rarely rarely rarely. happens. >> Yeah. So even even that even including. like friends of the family um somebody. who's not a direct family member but. known to the kid a non-stranger that's.

270 kids that that happened to in 2017. out of 20 27,000 I think. Um which is. that's awful for those kids that they. were kidnapped. Right. There's that. that's that's another thing too is when. you throw out statistics like this, it's. really easy to be like, "See, that was. it." Um, but you you don't want to do. that because to those 270 families that. that's that's all that matters. And. that's really important to remember as. well when we're kind of tossing out. these statistics, too.

>> Yeah. And not to make light of family. abductions, which is sure, >> you know, 91% of abductions, >> uh, those are horrific and traumatic as. well. Yeah. We're just talking about the. bare bones of like the fear that if I. let my kid go to a park, a stranger's. going to pluck them. >> Right. Right. So, so but and so even. that even if you look at it, it's 27,000. out of all the kids in the United States. in 2017, 27,000 of them went missing in. 2017 and the vast majority of them ran.

away. So, if you're worried that your. kid is going to get plucked by a. stranger specifically out of a park. somewhere because you let them go to the. park, what the freerange parenting. people are saying, if you look at the. statistics, the chances of that are so. small that it's actually not worth. limiting your kids freedom of movement. because of that outlier possibility. It. just doesn't it it's just a. disproportionate response to that risk. is what they're saying,

>> right? Um if you want to talk about the. worst thing that you can imagine, which. is um a a child murder, uh from 1980 to. 2008, um statistics about murders of children. under 5 years old, uh 63% of the time. the parents are the ones who did it. um. followed by 23%. So that's 86% total. Uh. 23% are male acquaintances. Um so like.

you know mom's boyfriend or something. like that, >> right? >> Uh 7% or other relatives. So only 3% of. all murders of young children are. strangers, >> right? So again. >> and again dress jinx. We're addressing. the fear of strangers doing something to. your child, not making light of these. other statistics. And. >> and there are parents out there who are. like, "Good, that's enough. That's the. fact that it happens to one kid makes me. want to protect my child and make sure. that they don't do that." Okay, that.

you're the parent. You're you're raising. your kid in that that way. I understand. Um but again, what the what the. freerange kids are saying is like like. is it really worth that? like what what. about that is is I mean is it really. worth that kind of a response? And we'll. get to we'll get to that because you. could say like if there were no negative. aspects of of completely ensconcing your. kid in protection then the freerange. kids advocates wouldn't have anything.

They could be like okay well whatever. that's what you're doing with your kid. But there's suspicions that the that. actually is detrimental to the. development of a kid, protecting them. from everything at all costs. And I. think that's one of the big other um. foundational platform uh post tenants of. the freerange kids thing. That one was for showing off.

Uh, all right. So, building on that, um, like you like you were saying, like. there there there has to be like in. order to get a parent on board with a. freerange parenting lifestyle, it's not. just I want to be lazy or I want to go. back to my childhood. um it's a parent. who thinks there are actual benefits to. doing so, right? And that that outweighs. the risk, like you were saying, of the. 3%. uh chance or the 1% or the 0.5% chance. that something's going to happen to my. kid if they're on their own. Um there is.

evidence and it's growing and growing. evidence that all these efforts to. schedule all these activities for your. kid are overlooking one big fundamental. element of raising a healthy. welladjusted child that seems to be. getting lost more and more which is. something called free play. Um, the. American Academy of Pediatrics has a. report out that said that uh, free play. promotes social um, sorry, social.

>> I like it. It's the new the new way of. saying it. >> Uh, social, emotional, cognitive. language and self-regulation skills that. build executive function and a. pro-social brain. And play is. fundamentally important for learning. 21st century skills like problem. solving, collaboration and creativity, uh, and executive functioning skills. that are critical for adult success, >> right? And they threw that last one in. to be like, well, okay, maybe play's. good, but it's not going to help them in.

life. And they're saying, yes, it will. actually help them in life. And that by. keeping them from playing, you're. basically creating a little adult from. from the nursery. Which is interesting. to me, Chuck, because prior to the 19th. century, when you were a kid, starting. around age five or something, you you. had a job, even if it wasn't around like. your family's farm. Maybe you were. helping out with um the wash that your. mom took in. Who knows? But then you. like there was no such thing as. childhood really. Um, and then we moved.

away from that and we developed. childhood and now it seems like we're. moving away from childhood now and we're. taking kids and they're not they're not. working on the farm. We're making them. little CEOs and marketing directors and. brand managers and stuff like that, but. they're they're losing their childhood. in that bargain is I think what what. they're saying. And from play. specifically, play helps, but it helps. also like um just in and of itself for. its own sake, but it also helps. eventually down the road. It's an. investment that will pay off, I think,

in terms that helicopter parents can. understand. >> Yeah. There's another guy uh named Peter. Gray. He's a developmental psychologist. Um he has a book called Free to Learn. and founded a nonprofit, I believe, with. uh yeah, Skynazi called Let Grow. M. >> um. >> little play on words there. >> Yes. >> And he basically says that you know if. you look back through human evolution. >> um children. uh.

their education was through play with. their peers. And if you look at um. societies and cultures in the world. today that um I mean how would you. classify these cultures? uh traditional. societies. I'm not sure. >> maybe. But they say that that children. of these cultures that still play and. explore freely um if they're left to do. that, they will do so into their teen. years. Um like that is their natural. instinct is to be among their peers free.

playing, >> right? But so and so like I think one of. the problems that helicopter parents. have with the idea of play is that like. it's it's a waste of time. the kid could. be learning like cello or um you know. doing math flashcards or like creating a. better foundation for a better future. for themselves and that if they're not. doing that they're falling behind and so. what Peter Gray and some of his ilk are. saying is like no no no play helps. develop a child in ways that no other.

thing you could possibly come up with or. supervise or get them to do can because. this is what we've done all this time. and this is how we've built society is. letting little kids play and figure. things out on their own. And he says. that if there's a parent around, if it's. supervised, if uh there's a parent even. within like eyesight or earter, you. know, there's a a parent watching, it's. going to be different. It has to be. unsupervised, unstructured play so that. the kids can be left to make up their. own rules, can can be taught by the.

group that, you know, actually no, that's not really fair or it's not. really cool to take the ball and go home. because you aren't winning. um that's. how you learn that stuff and those are. good things to learn. That makes you a. more socially welladjusted kid than um. probably learning cello is going to. >> Well, yeah. I mean, you can uh try and. teach your kid by uh showing and by. telling as much as you can as a parent, and that is all valuable, but nothing.

will teach a lesson to a kid like. learning it through experience with. their peers, >> right? And. >> like I remember myself, you know, when I. was a kid, like the the biggest lessons. I learned were were lessons that I. learned uh among my peer group, you. know, like tough hard lessons. >> that a lot of parents, I think, try and. even shield their kid from cuz it's. tough stuff sometimes. But um and you. know, you don't want your kid to suffer. traumas and things like that, but uh and.

not to sound like a parent from the. 1950s, but that stuff does help build. your child's character. And uh I mean, I. guess that sounds sort of old school. What it does is it helps them. learn how to regulate their emotions and. how to fit in with their peer group, which is in turn going to be eventually. just society at large. >> Right. It's funny you say that that. sounds kind of 50s because this whole. idea of like freerange kids is kind of. based on that philosophy of Dr. Spock.

who was like one of the first experts, one of the first child experts that. America ever really paid attention to. And he wrote a book in 1946 called the. common sense book of baby and child. And. he basically is saying all the stuff. that free range uh kids parents say is. like let your kid play, let your kid. like learn through their own um their. own way of like exploring the world. Like let them take risks. Um let them be. themselves. Trust your instincts as a.

parent. And so that's what freerange. parents seem to be kind of getting back. to is like the Dr. Spock um school of. thought. Benjamin Spock, not um the. other Spock. >> Not live long and prosper Spock. Did he. have a first name? >> Oh, I don't know, man. I didn't watch uh. Star Trek. >> I didn't either. Just lay it on us, million people who are gonna send the. email. We're waiting. >> Uh there's something called the internal. external locus of control scale. Um it's. a it's an odd name, but uh this is um.

been around since the 1960s. It's a. psychological indicator scale. Uh and. these days since the 1960s there's been. a big shift in the scale in how teens uh. report themselves and their internal. control. And today teens report very. little internal control over their own. lives. And uh Gray believes and I think. he's really on to something here that uh. these high levels of anxiety and.

depression uh among kids these days has. a lot to do with that. and he thinks. it's directly related to the decline in. free play over the last, you know, 40 or. 50 years, >> right? Which I want to say like this. this is like one psychologist's opinion. It makes a lot of sense to me and I'm. sure it does to a lot of people, but it. there's, you know, this is not. necessarily like like gospel truth or. set in stone. It's true. The jury is. still kind of out, but there is a lot of.

evidence out there that that does seem. like overprotecting your kid can stunt. them in um emotionally or. developmentally. And then letting them. go be themselves and and learn things on. their own and learn that they can pick. themselves back up and still survive and. failure is not the worst thing in the. world can actually help them develop. Um, this is it's just like we we. routinely shoot holes in in social. psychology stuff all the time and we do. it gleefully. So, I don't want to like.

go the opposite way and just be like, "But this one's right because we agree. with it." Um, that's not necessarily the. case. And I'm sure a lot of people. disagree with it. >> But I I I tend to kind of favor that. that mentality probably because it's how. I was raised. >> Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, it does. sound like a um from the 1950s say that. failure breeds character, but it, you. know, it really does. It's sort of a. simplistic way to say it, but when you. fail, you um hopefully learn something. and build on that and that does build.

character, >> right? So, >> one of the things they call that is the. um dignity of risk where you are showing. your kid, I'm I I'm letting you go. figure this out on your own. Um and and. another big um misunderstanding with. freerange parents is that that you just. go from like zero to walking, you know, taking the subway in New York um at the. flip of a switch. That's not how it. works. you you slowly build your kid up.

for this, you know, the big thing that. you write an article about, but there's, you know, dozens or scores or possibly. hundreds of little little interactions. that you're having to kind of make sure. that your kid is up for this when. they're finally when you decide they're. finally ready to um and it's not just. like flipping a switch. It's very kind. of thoughtful and protracted and um. planned but not necessarily shared with. the kid that it's planned. um paying out. of trust and so that the kid can show. you, yeah, I'm ready for this. I know.

what to do. I'm not just going to like. ball up on the on the ground in the. subway and and start crying until. someone calls 911 and the cops come get. me. >> Well, yeah. And I'm sure when she sent. um her kid on on the subway home that. very first time, it wasn't just like, "All right, here's the stuff. See you. later." I'm sure there was a a very. serious talk like, "All right, dude. I. trust you. I'm letting you do this. I. know you know the way. We're going to. give this a shot. Um don't if I see you. on the news in the middle of Time.

Square, like you're going to be in big. trouble, >> right? >> Um I'm sure there was a lot of thought. and talk that went into that. And uh you. know what I'm saying? >> Yes. So totally. >> And kids get that stuff, you know? >> Yep. For sure. >> Kids are smarter than people give them. credit for a lot of times, I think. Um. it's interesting when it comes to the. law because this is such a new thing. Um, in Utah last year in 2018, uh, it. became the first state to pass what was. called a free-range parenting law where. it basically was just sort of redefining. what child neglect was. Uh, and in Utah,

I thought it was going to go the other. way when I was reading this, but um, it. actually went the way of uh, sort of. encouraging uh, or being behind free. range parenting. Uh the new definition, a parent cannot be accused of neglect. just because their kid is going to a. store by themsel that's down the street. or playing outside alone or biking to. school on their own or at home without a. parent there um if they're a minor, which is pretty interesting.

>> Yeah, I thought so, too. Um, but most. freerange parents are like, "Well, we. don't want to live to in Utah." So. hopefully our states will all come up. with similar laws that that. decriminalize freerange parenting. because in a lot of states things like. latch key kids are illegal. Like you can. have your kid taken from you if they are. a latch key kid under a certain age. I. think in Washington you have to be 14 to. be left at home alone. Like you you. could lose your kid. And so there's a. real problem with trying freerange.

parenting because part of this um. helicopter parenting society is also. helicopter. villaging. But rather than picking up. the phone and calling the parents whose. kids you see wandering alone down the. street like you used to would have done, now people just call pick up the phone. and call the cops. And then the cops. respond and they take the kid to child. protective services and the parent has. to go down and explain that they will. never do this again and they're very.

very sorry or else child protective. services will take their kid from them. because most states rule on what's. called the best interests of the child. which is totally subjective is. completely not based in any actual case. law necessarily. It's just does the. child protective services person think. that that the uh the kid is is smart. enough to walk from the playground to. the house? No. Okay. Well, we're taking. your kid maybe permanently. And so it's. it's really risky to raise your kid this.

way because people will call the cops if. they see your kid walking down the. street and real trouble. your your. parentship of your kid is in jeopardy at. that moment, which has got to be one of. the worst things that could possibly. happen to a parent. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is where we kind of. we get back to the place of like this is. a um privilege has a lot to do with this. because when it comes to the law and. children and child protective services, you are way more likely um to get a.

visit um from child protective services. if you are poor um or if you're a person. of color or minority. Um, like they may. write an article about you in the local. magazine praising you if you're like a. white suburban parent of middle or upper. middle class for letting your kid free. range around. But um in the case of like. Deborah Herrell in uh 2014 in South. Carolina, um she wasn't like, "Oh, I. want to be a freerange parent." She's.

like, "I am a working mom and I work at. McDonald's and I'm finishing a shift and. my 9-year-old daughter is playing at a. park nearby until I'm done." And they. sent her to jail for a night and took. her daughter for two weeks away from. her. >> Yeah. 17 days. >> Yeah. So it it is very much a case of. privilege to even be allowed to do this. without getting a visit from child. protective services. >> Right. So um Scanazy and and some of the. other freerange parents say right this.

is why we need laws that are much more. common sense and decriminalize this kind. of behavior and put the trust back in. parents to know that their kids are. smart enough or if they think their kids. aren't smart enough to be trusted with. that kind of stuff, they wouldn't let. them do that. um they argue that this. would benefit everybody whether no. matter you know whether you're a. minority or um whatever um socioeconomic. status you have uh which is which is. true that's a pretty it's a pretty. sensible. >> um it's sensible but I think that that.

kind of underscores a larger problem. which is you know like some people don't. have the choice to to get child care if. the school suddenly cancels class like. you just can't afford it what are you. going to do and then your your work says. Well, you can't bring them here. This is. work. You know what what can you do? Hopefully, you've raised your kid to a. point where you can trust them to go. play, you know, next door at the. playground or something like that, but. that doesn't mean that you're not going. to end up in trouble with with the.

authorities. So, it's a sticky sticky. situation that we're in, too. >> It is. And, you know, again, it depends. on your kid. It depends on where you. live. Like in my brother's neighborhood, uh if I live there, I would let my kid. go out and do what she wanted when she. was like seven. It's just so safe, >> right? >> And kids are everywhere on their own. doing stuff. Very much like it was when. we were kids. At my house, I live next. to a super scary, busy street. Like I.

would never let her out of the front of. my house. But even at 3 and 1/2, we let her go in. the backyard by herself and do stuff all. the time, >> right? >> Um I mean, just this past weekend, I uh. she was out in the backyard and with the. dogs and I went out about a half an hour. later and she was walking through the. garden uh with a watering can singing We. Will Rock You. and I was like, "All right, everything's.

fine." But again, she's in my enclosed. backyard. >> I wasn't sweating it. I would um I would. never just open the front door and be. like, "Go have fun. Memorial Drive's. right there, right? Cars are going 60. miles an hour.". >> But that's the point. It's all context, you know, like you would have had to. have worked up to that point. She would. have had to have shown you that she was. able to be trusted with that busy street. and maybe she'd be 16 before you would. But that's that's the point. It's all. it's all it's context, you know. >> Yeah. And you know, again, just do the.

best you can. It's hard. There a. thousand ways to do it and everybody. thinks their way is the right way. >> That's right. Also, just before we sign. off, I want to say I didn't mean to pick. on kids who take cello lessons. Cello. is, by the way, my favorite stringed. instrument, which means it was the one. that was easiest called the mind. That's. why I kept bringing up the cello. So, all of you out there learning cello, hats off to you because that's my fave. string instrument. >> Yeah. But what if uh what if Yoyo Ma had.

just been free playing, >> right? But I'll bet Yoyo Ma did free. play. I'll bet he did both. And if he. didn't, I'll bet he regrets it. Uh if. you want to know more about free range. kids, well, just go on the internet and. start reading because there's a lot. about it. Uh and since I said that, oh, also there's a pretty good article on. how stuff works you can read, too. Since. I said that, it's time for listener. mail. All right, I'm going to call this uh. desert flooding. Uh hey guys, listen to. the podcast this morning on desert.

survival. And I live here in Phoenix, Arizona, and have for 19 years. And the. flash flood issue is real, even in Metro. Phoenix. Um they have a stupid motorist. law here. Uh and that's capitalized and. in quotes. Um she said and uh she said. after and during your heavy rains, a lot. of washes fill with running water. Uh, a. lot of the washes have been paved. Barriers will be put up when they flood, even if the water is only a few inches. deep. But there is always someone who.

decides that their SUV or truck is hefty. enough to get through. And their rescue. is always on the nightly news. Oh, man. >> Because they have to pay for it. They. actually have to pay for the cost of. their rescue. >> Uh, sometimes these daredevils don't. fare too well. Um, actually lives have. been lost in less than a foot of moving. water in a watch. >> Yeah, I believe that. I've heard 6 in. >> Yeah. Uh and she Teresa Henberry closes. by saying this. I do so enjoy your. podcasts.

>> Nice. Thank you, Teresa. We do so enjoy. your emails, too. >> Yes. I like the way she put that. >> Yeah. Um if you want to be like Teresa. and impress us with your um verbal or. written dexterity, we love that kind of. stuff. You can go to stuffyow.com. and you can look us up on the social. links. You can also send us a podcast. like Teresa did to stuffodcast.com.

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