Selects: How Forgiveness Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, it's me Josh and I. thought for my picks this year I would. kick off 2026 with a very sweet, moving, and also eyeopening episode on. forgiveness. It turns out all of us have. the capacity to forgive, but that's not. always the best course of action for any. given circumstance. This episode also. has a lot of really great stories of. amazing acts of forgiveness by people. who forgave others against all odds. It's a good episode and I hope you enjoy.

it and I hope your year is going. wonderfully so far. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. [music]. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. And this is Stuff You Should. Know. Some philosophical [music] waxing is. going to happen in this one. >> I think it's inevitable, Chuck.

>> That's right. And Don Henley [music]. songs. >> Oh, yeah. That's a good one, too. >> Heart of the Matter. >> Mhm. You like it? >> Sure. >> All right. >> That part where it's like, I'm learning. to live without you [laughter] now. It. stirs my soul every time. >> Forgiveness. Yeah. >> You'd have to be dead inside to not be. stirred by that part. >> I agree. >> It's good. good song, but he really kind. of nails it in that because he's talking. about forgiveness.

>> and the heart of the matter. >> Sure. Um, and he's he wants forgiveness. He needs. forgiveness even if like it's the end of. the relationship. >> Yeah. Even if she doesn't love him. anymore. >> Sure. So, on the one hand, that is a. certain kind of forgiveness that an. individual or person can that's a path. someone can set down. But there's been a. lot of research starting starting in the. very beginning um stages at the the. middle of the 20th century but really.

picking up in the '9s um research into. forgiveness like legitimate scientific. research and it's a multid-disciplinary. thing because there's a lot of different. [snorts]. uh fields. >> disciplines. >> sure that have said hey this actually. this is something we can study and. measure and produce articles and and and. work on. >> um and they have they've produced do. some really good legitimate work. But. what most of them have been focused on. is not the Don Henley position of.

somebody who needs to be redeemed, who. needs redemption to feel better, who. needs forgiveness. Yeah. >> But rather the person doing the. forgiving, the person who is originally. trans transgressed against, not the. offender, but the offendee. That's where. most of the research has been done on. forgiveness, >> right? Don Henley is a rock star, so. he's he's writing a song about wanting. to be forgiven for a a forsome he had in. St. Paul backstage. >> Sure.

Even if you don't love me anymore, can. you forgive me that, you know, can you. blame a guy is what he's saying, [laughter]. >> right? >> So, yeah, I think that's probably. exactly what that song's about now that. you mentioned. >> That's the subtext. So um I think we should start by um. pointing out something about forgiveness. is that a lot of people um there's a lot. of stories about people not forgiving. We call it revenge and people love. revenge, you know, like think about the.

revenge movie genre and how many entries. there are. >> Pretty great. >> Like uh have you ever seen I Saw the. Devil? >> Yeah. >> Have you ever seen Old Boy? >> Yeah. Have you ever seen Death Becomes Her? >> Yeah. >> Have you ever seen Sheed Devil? >> Nope. >> Oh, you haven't? With Roseanne Bar and. um Ed Begley and and. >> Mel saw that? Was that a revenge uh. movie? >> Yes. All of them. Great revenge movies.

>> Can I shout out one of my favorites? >> Yeah, please do. >> Like legitimately. Uh kind of a smaller. indie movie called Blue Ruin. >> Oh, yeah. I saw that one. >> Great great revenge movie if you're into. revenge movies. And I am. I I enjoy it. There's a catharsis involved because I'm. a I'm a big forgiver. So, I think I like. seeing movies. >> where revenge happens. >> Yeah. And we'll talk a lot about, you. know, revenge because they're virtually. two sides of the same coin and they. really interact in some surprising ways.

that are sensible when you see it laid. out, but you might not necessarily be. walking around thinking about. But on. the other side, if you look up movies. about forgiveness, almost all of them. were produced by a mega church somewhere. in the south. [laughter]. Or you've got Magnolia and then The. Fisher King are like the two like. legitimate contenders for movies about. forgiveness. >> Well, I don't know because I think there's a. fine line sometimes between redemption.

stories and forgiveness stories. >> Okay. >> They can kind of go hand in hand. And. there are plenty of redemption stories. >> Okay. Like what? >> What? Redemption stories? >> Yeah, let's hear it. >> Oh, I mean. Hooers, >> one of the great sports redemption. movies. >> Okay. I think that's a pretty loose. definition of redemption. >> Former alcoholic coach who. >> who was uh not working because of some. bad deeds gets redeemed.

>> by leading a team to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the. alcoholic father. Oh, >> wait a minute. Was uh was um Gene. Hackman on the road to redemption? I. thought he came in and basically got. Dennis Hopper redeemed himself. >> It was a double redemption. He was. getting redeemed as well. >> All right. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, >> but plenty of redemption stories. And I. think there's a lot of movies that. wrestle with the idea of forgiveness in. really weighty, heavy ways. >> Mhm. uh like these true stories that you.

hear about these awful things that. happen whether a family member is. accidentally killed by someone or. murdered by someone like there's a lot. of that stuff in movies. >> Okay. So my thesis was this and this is. strictly me editorializing here but I I. think there's some validity to it and. that is that the reason why it's much. easier to name revenge movies is because. revenge appeals to our baser instincts. It makes sense. It's it's universally.

understood. Um, and like you said, you. even consider yourself a big- time. forgiver and yet you enjoy revenge. movies. It's cathartic for you. There's. something to be delivered by a revenge. movie. A movie about forgiveness. >> there. It's just more complicated. It's. harder. We're not as good in in in um. we're not as automatically adept at. forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why I think there's fewer. forgiveness movies. But that's not to.

say that we're not moved by it. Because. I think if you hear whenever you hear. real life stories of forgiveness, they. just bowl you over. Oh yeah. >> Even when you step back and think about. like what the person's actually doing, you're like, "Yes, legitimately anybody. could do what they just did." It's it's. akin to hearing somebody solo climbing. Mount Everest or something like that. It's just it makes the news literally. when somebody forgives in a in like a. really deep way that the average person.

might not. >> Yeah. Like a a big- time transgression. A lot of times you'll hear of a. courtroom. >> scene where someone has forgiven the. person who like murdered their their. relative or loved one or something. >> Yeah. >> And that man, that stuff is powerful. You're right. Every time you see these. stories, uh, you dug up this one story. from, uh, Berkeley, the, uh, Greater. Good magazine, uh, science-based. insights for a meaningful life.

>> out of UC Berkeley of this woman. who was a a nurse's aid who hit a guy. She had been drinking, hit a guy in her. car, he went through the windshield, uh, and was stuck there and she was so. impaired, she didn't realize it for a. while, uh, eventually realized it, got. out of the car, could not get the guy. out, who was still alive, mind you, and. so drove home and parked her car in the. garage to let this guy slowly die.

>> Yeah. >> In her garage. >> over the course of a couple of days. And. like she sobered up, would go out and. chuck on him once in a while, but. refused to call for help because she was. too concerned about getting in trouble. Sure. So instead, she let him die, >> had a couple friends come help her hide. the body, move the body, >> and then actually got found out later on. because 4 months later she was at a. party and she joked about it to an. acquaintance who went and told the cops. and this woman ended up getting 50 years. in prison. That's a horrible story. Like.

that's one of the worst things that a. human being could possibly do. There. were so many opportunities for this. woman to save this man's life. And by. the way, everyone involved in that court. case who had a medical degree said that. had she called the cops, the fire. department, taken the guy to the. hospital, he almost certainly would have. survived those injuries. But given that. she didn't for days get him medical aid, he finally did succumb to them. But he. probably would have survive. Almost. certainly would have survived. like what.

she did was about as horrific as as what. what a person could do and just so. irresponsible with human life. And she. rightfully got a 50-year prison sentence. um for that crime. And yet, despite how. horrific that was, what made news just. as much as that is that a short time. later, that man's son, the man who was. hit and killed, publicly forgave that woman for for. killing his father. >> Yes. at the sentencing said, quote,

"There's there's no winners in a case. like this. Just as we all lost Greg, uh. you all will be losing your daughter to. her family. I still want to extend my. forgiveness to uh Shante Malard was her. name and let her know that the Malard. family is in my prayers." And this is. the kind of stuff, like you said, that. makes the news where I think it hits. everybody because it makes everybody. stop for a second and say, could I do.

that? >> Yes. >> Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a big weighty question. because there's all kinds of. forgiveness. there's uh you know a a. couple partners together who get in a. fight and someone says they're sorry for. doing a certain thing and they're. forgiven or not. >> There are uh situations at work where. people are forgiven. There are friends. who maybe betray you uh by like cheating. on uh on somebody with someone. Uh, I.

had a situation like that where I had a. former friend I felt like cheated with. my barely ex-girlfriend and I spent. quite a few years being upset about that. >> and then forgave him and it's a powerful. thing. So, there's there's like levels, but when you get to this kind of thing. where someone caused the death of a. loved one and then even laughed about. it, >> like to be able to forgive like that is. just uh that's next level.

>> It is. It is. So much so, Chuck, that a. group of convicted murderers who were. serving sentences in prison heard about. this and I guess got in touch with one. another and raised funds and and got a. $10,000 scholarship together. >> Wow. >> For Brandon Biggs um to go to college. Um the convicted murderer sent the kid. to college because this this very. generous act of public forgiveness of. his own father's murderer. Um, so yeah,

it is it's an astounding thing. And yet. everything that like the the research. that really, like I said, started to to. take off in earnest in the '9s, um, has. shown us is that we're all perfectly. capable of doing that. The answer is. yes. Yes, you can do that. You totally. could do that. But that we don't. necessarily fully understand how to. And yet there's a lot of evidence also. that it's evolutionarily wired into us. to do that.

>> Yeah. And you know, we'll get into. religiosity of it uh a bit more in. detail later, but all religions talk a. lot about forgiveness. Uh there's, you. know, a pretty famous story in the Bible. where Peter said uh to Jesus, Lord, how. many times shall I forgive my brother or. sister who sins against me? Up to seven. times. And Jesus said,"I tell you not. seven times but 70* 7." And Peter said, "So 490 times." And Jesus said, "Oh, Peter, always so literal.".

>> Yeah. >> Uh, that one's pretty good. But you. know, you can read Hindu, you can read. uh the Buddhists talk about it. Like. everyone, every religion talks about. forgiveness as kind of a. maybe a cornerstone of of the religion. in some cases. So much so that um when. science started looking into forgiveness. and and and just trying to figure it out. um generally people just presumed. forgiveness was under the realm and the. domain of religion that that's where.

that's where you went for answers about. forgiveness and science said ho ho ho we. can we can top that surely we can beat. that 490 number and that's what they've. said about doing. >> Yeah. I mean, Jesus forgave his. crucifiers. It's like one of the few. things Jesus said on the cross according. [clears throat] to the Bible was. >> they know not what they do. Like forgive. them for they know not what they do, >> right? >> Uh and like you said, it's not just. Christianity, although Christianity gets. all the all the accolades for.

forgiveness. Um Janism is a big one. Uh. there's a there's a kind of a a mantra. from Janism that says, "I grant. forgiveness to all living beings. May. all living beings grant me forgiveness. My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is totally non-existent. And. um that's I mean when you look at that, especially if you're not a Janist, um. you you're like, "Wow, how would you. ever how would you ever reach that. level?" And I think that the point is. like you never reach that level. It's an.

ideal goal that you try to achieve. probably on a daily basis if you're a. Janist, but it's certainly over a. lifetime, you know. >> Yeah. And I'd like to read this. Uh. again, not to pile on the religious. stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke to. me. >> Uh this one part in the middle says, "What can a wicked person do and to him. or into one who carries the saber of. forgiveness in his hand?". >> And that one really speaks to me in that. it's the it's a powerful tool to forgive.

and it's for you as the forgiver. I. think a lot of times people think it's. can clear the conscious of someone who's. done something wrong. I guess that. certainly happens, but to me it's it's. really about it's a it's a powerful. weapon you have to regain your own. strength as a human. >> Yes. That seems to be the bulk of what. psychology is is coming up with as far. as studying forgiveness goes. That it's. really the person who is who has been. wronged. That's what forgiveness is is.

more about. That's the psychological. aspect of it. Like we said, there's um. it's a multidisciplinary investigation. And so you've got evolutionary. biologists who are like that's really. great psychology, but we found a. different reason for forgiveness and it. doesn't quite fit that mold. Um and then. um like the the medical field says, "No, it's even better than that. You can. actually like improve your health by. genuinely forgiving somebody." So. there's all these different inputs that.

are coming together to create this. really like complex contextualized. picture of what forgiveness is and what. it does for us and why we have it. >> That's right. I think it's a great. setup. >> I agree. You want to take a break? >> I might just not come back. That feels. so good about that. >> No, no, we have to finish. We got to. complete. >> All right. We'll be back in a minute to. talk uh about what I think is probably. the most interesting part of this is the. evolutionary aspect right after this. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> Learning [singing] stuff with Joshua and. Charles. you [music] should know. [music]. >> [music]. >> So this was this uh this is Livia,

correct? >> Uh forgiveness was the Dave Ruse joint. >> Oh, okay. I thought this was Livia. >> So yeah, thanks to Dave for this. He did. a great job with this research. But uh. the the evolutionary aspect of. forgiveness is super interesting to me. because I think that a lot of people. assume that it's uh what Dave calls a. higher virtue. like you know as tuk tuk. in the gang were so base as uh you know. kind of primitive thinkers is that they. didn't have the capacity forgive they.

would they would smite somebody if if. someone punched tuk tuk in the face tuk. tuk punch back or someone attack took. took attack back maybe even harder and. there is a quite a bit of evidence that. um they're not mutually exclusive and. that that fighting back and forgiving. both have a big evolutionary advantage. >> Yeah. So, the big evolutionary advantage. of revenge is if you live in a social. group and somebody takes advantage of.

you or they hit you or they steal your. food or whatever, if you don't do. something to write that wrong, you're. broadcasting to the rest of the group. that you are open for exploitation. And. that's not good for you. It's also not. good for the chances that you're going. to pass along your genes. And so under. the under the the opaces of natural. selection, it makes sense for you to hit. that person that steals your food or who. hits you. And that's revenge. And. revenge forms that function in a social. group. It says to everybody. It signals.

to the rest of the group, you are not to. be messed with. This guy tried it and. look what happened to him. Nobody else. should try that. Go pick on somebody. else. And there's actually been studies. that have showed that not just among. apes and primates um but among human. cultures, revenge is found pretty much. universally. And I saw a study, Chuck, that said that um the mere presence of a. person, a third party who's witnessing. an argument increases the chances that. that argument is going to come to blows.

because you're signaling to the rest of. the group and [clears throat] in this. case just that third person, you are not. to be messed with. that that's the the. purpose of revenge is to is to broadcast. that signal. >> Yeah. I mean, I would say that any kind. of dumb drunk bar fight, half of it is. the fact that someone doesn't want to. back down in front of other people. >> Sure. >> You know, more than half. >> Totally. >> And that if those two guys were just in. a uh alley somewhere, they may just hug.

it out. >> Yeah. >> Probably not, but you never know. >> It's possible. Or they they might talk. it out at least. Yeah. Or just agree. that it's dumb and leave. >> Yes. >> Uh but you talked about studies in the. animal world. Uh there was a. primatologist named uh Fran Deval who. looked at wild chimps uh recorded uh 350. encounters, aggressive encounters. between these chimps and then what. happened afterward. And in 51% of these. encounters, uh, the chimps would.

literally kind of kiss and make up and. touch each other and embrace each other. after a fight. We've seen the same thing. in bonabos and great apes. Um, there's. sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats, even hyenas have shown traits of. forgiveness. >> So, it's it's not ubiquitous, but it is. all over the animal kingdom. Animals. fighting and then animals making up with. one another, >> right? So, I mean, the revenge one's. pretty easy to understand, but then. you're like, "Okay, well, wh why would. there be the making up part, but that.

also ties into the fact that these same. animals are also um living in social. tight-knit social groups. And so, you. have a limited amount of people that you. can possibly have a a dispute or a feud. with. And if you're not working together. cooperatively. in that sense, also your your chances of. survival are decreased. So, what makes. sense is what's called the um valuable. relationship hypo hypothesis, which says. if somebody hits you, you should hit.

them back, but then after that, you. should make up with them. So, you're. sending that signal you're not to be. messed with, but then you're repairing. that relationship, that valuable. relationship that you depend on to help. your survival in the in the um social. group. Um you're repairing it and then. you guys can move forward. And that that. is the how um revenge and forgiveness. are basically two sides of the same coin. or at least work in conjunction with one. another to keep the the group um.

functioning at its best, >> right? Uh and that kind of dovetales. with a second uh part of that um thing. which is called negative reciprocity. which is if uh someone hits tuk tuk and. tuk tuk goes crazy and just starts. whailing on the other person who just. slapped him in the face. >> Yeah, >> that's not good either cuz everyone's. going to go whoa. Uh tuk tuk uh I'm not. sure I trust him now. um he has. definitely burned that bridge forever.

between him and the other guy. >> And none of this is very good. So what. they found is negative reciprocity. If. you if someone smites you, you smite. them back the the same amount and then. forgive them. Like if someone takes off. their glove and slaps you across the. face, you don't you don't kick them. between the legs and then whail on their. face. You slap them back with your glove. and then you talk about forgiving one. another and everyone sees that you can. work with people. You can you can stand.

your ground but you can also forgive and. work with people which means you're. valuable to the group and you're. valuable to have around. >> Yeah. And so kind of tied into what you. were saying earlier about, you know, how. there's this idea that, you know, revenge is a base instinct and. forgiveness is a higher instinct rather. than realizing that they're both pretty. basic instincts for for um among the. animal kingdom. is there's this idea. that in human society um we have created.

like these social institutions and these. contexts so that the individual doesn't. have to to carry out revenge and then. forgiveness that they can just focus on. forgiveness. Yeah. As long as those. social institutions are doing what. they're supposed to do, as long as there. is like a pursuit of justice and you can. rely on the idea that the the person who. transgressed against you by killing your. father is going to be caught and. punished and sentenced to jail, you. don't have to worry about revenge. It's. being it's being conducted for you and.

then you the individual in this well. functioning society can just focus on. whether you want to forgive or not. And. that that's that kind of higher and. lower echelon because on the in the. opposite situation where there isn't. like a good sense of justice where it. does seem like if you want justice you. have to go seek it out yourself. Revenge. is going to be much more um uh exercised. much more frequently than forgiveness. will. >> Yeah. Which says a lot about the United. States these days, you know.

>> Yeah. >> I mean I'm I'm not trying to be cynical. even. I mean that's just sort of what we. see around us. I think a lot of people. feel like the sense of justice in this. country is pretty skewed and that's why. you might see the uh increases in things. like vigilantism or revenge and um I I. don't know what societies you look to to. do a study like that. I'm kind of. curious on the ones that are very well. policed and the justice is um sort of. fair and equal, but. >> um I I think that's one of the problems.

in the in the states these days for. sure. >> Yeah. without getting too far down that. rabbit hole. >> But also even, you know, it's it's kind. of eye opening to me because I I've. never really thought about the courts. and the justice system is. >> um set up to help individuals move. along. >> Yeah, it should be. >> You just think of it as punishment. It's. a system for punishment, not for. redemption necessarily, but um but it's. also to to help the victims. I just. never saw it that way before.

>> Yeah. It's interesting when you talk. about that guy in court and a lot of. times you'll hear the courtroom. forgiveness. Um, sometimes you'll also. hear the opposite and you hear the. courtroom like I will never forgive you. for what you did to me. And I think. not always, but it seems to be a lot of. time tied to whether the transgressor. has really acknowledged what they've. done and sought forgiveness and said. that was the worst thing I've ever done. in my life and I don't I don't think you.

should ever forgive me. Like it's an. interesting sort of dance that happens. there cuz it's not a onetoone thing. It's not like every time a bad criminal. that does something really asks for. forgiveness and says it was a terrible. thing. the other person forgives. So. sometimes the person could laugh it off. like this lady did and not ask for. forgiveness and the other person could. forgive. Which I think goes back to the. notion that forgiveness comes from the. forgiver, >> right? That that's that it's really. about the the person who's been wronged.

That's who it's about. And so yeah, now. we've reached the kind of um. psychologies domain over the the concept. of forgiveness, which is. >> that it's about you, the individual who. suffered a wrong. >> um releasing the the pain and the anger. and the resentment and all the negative. feelings that you're experiencing so. that you can feel better. And that it. doesn't matter whether the other person. is asking for forgiveness and that it. doesn't even matter if the other person. deserves forgiveness or not. That.

genuine forgiveness, psychologically. speaking, according to some. psychologists, we'll hear that some. disagree, but that genuine true. forgiveness is unconditional. That you. you forgive the person whether they. deserve it or not. >> Yeah. And this is to where the language. to me is a little. I could see people debating this because. it is forgiveness in a way, but to me. it's almost more of just a letting go. >> Yeah, I agree with you. uh of an anger. So, it's not it's so it's so tricky with.

the the the definition because when you. think of forgiveness, you think I'm. saying. and it's really not what it is. What. you're not saying is it's okay what you. did. >> Okay. So, yes, >> you know what I mean? That's not what. that's not a key component of. forgiveness. >> No. No, it's not. you're that's and. that's a very confusing thing for a lot. of people too is that the idea that if. you forgive somebody you're you're. you're condoning their behavior. You're. saying it's okay what they did. >> That's not the point of forgiveness.

>> Um from from what psychologists who. research this are coming up with, they're saying, "No, what you're doing. when you forgive somebody is to say, I. know what you did. You wronged me and I. can live with that. It doesn't make it. any better." Yeah. It doesn't make it. any better. It doesn't excuse what you. did, >> right? >> And it does it certainly doesn't excuse. future repeated um instances of what you. just did, but it's saying like I'm. willing to let go of the pain I have.

associated with this act you you you did. against me that you this wrong and I'm. going to move forward with my life and. in doing that I'm willing to let you. move forward as well. Well, or I think. sometimes in a case like this, that kind. of forgiveness can make the transgressor. suffer worse sometimes. >> Yeah. Just out of guilt. >> Yeah. And they want to be admonished and. hated as part of a punishment. >> Uh but you know, it ts, you know, cuz.

again, forgiveness is not for you. It's. for the person. Dave even makes a great. point. Uh the person being forgiven uh. is secondary or even unnecessary to the. process. And that's sort of the key. You. don't even have to. tell that person necessarily. We'll. we'll get to later some kind of like how. to forgive. Some people say that you. should tell someone. >> uh out loud, like literally tell. someone. But you don't necessarily have. to tell that person if it's a a. situation like this or even if it's like.

a close personal friend. Like I think. usually you do when it's someone you. know because that's a part of. communicating with one another in a. healthy way. But if it's the person who. who killed your family, uh you don't. have to tell them to forgive them and. you can still forgive them. >> Yes. So some psychologists define. forgiveness like a full forgiveness as. including you actually seeking out. contact with that person, >> right? >> And that if you forgive them but don't. tell them or you still avoid them.

afterward where it's like, "Hey, I. forgive you but good luck with the rest. of your life. You're not in my life. anymore." that to to some psychologists, not all, some psychologists say that's. that's not genuine forgiveness. That's. akin to like what you were saying, which. is letting go of anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving. >> I still say it's forgiving. I'm not one. of the psychologists. >> Sure. And it's it's very much debated. for sure. But then that also leads to. another point too that if you forgive. somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean. you forget, right? And and that's not.

part and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't. mean forgetting. you can forgive. Um, I'm actually really good at that kind of. thing where like I I forgive because it. it just unless it was a really huge. wrong, it just kind of fades from my. memory fairly easily and I don't I'm not. I don't dwell on it. >> Um, so so it can they can go hand in. hand. But if you've been deeply wronged. by somebody where you're actually going. through the process of forgiving, which. we'll talk about, and it is a it's a.

deliberate step that you're taking. toward finding peace with yourself in. your life again, then um you know very. well what that wrong was and you're not. going to forget it. But eventually the. aim is that you will have divorced the. emotional attachment from that memory to. of that wrong to where it becomes akin. to like a movie you saw once or a trip. you took once. Like it it's not it's. just a thing that happened in your life. rather than this this this crisis that. is sucking up your attention and.

emotions. Yeah, I really like this. definition from uh Fred Luskin, who is a. uh psychologist and forgiveness expert. for what it's worth. Uh director of the. Stanford University forgiveness. projects. >> And Fred's definition is to forgive is. to give up all hope for a better past. And that's that really lays it out there. in this in a very practical sense that.

what what has happened has happened. You. may not be there yet in your journey to. forgiveness or or the letting go, but. you cannot change what happened no. matter how angry you are or how much you. want someone to pay for it or suffer or. how much revenge you want. So there is. no better past. That's impossible. So. giving up hope for a better past, it's. sort of a bleak definition, but one that. I think is uh pretty instructive. >> Yeah. But it's also a realistic.

definition too if you think about it. because you can't change the past one. way or another. You can only alter how. you let the the past continue to affect. you or not. >> And the the other thing I I really want. to say here right now because it can be. confusing for me too. Um when I when I. think about forgiveness and anger and. stuff like that is like this is not no. one is talking about a something like. throwing a switch or like rather than. feeling anger you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive as.

we'll see like you you like you can't. replace anger with forgiveness. forgiveness is meant to come after anger. because you use anger, right, or hurt or. resentment or whatever your version of. that is um to to um to protect and guard. your own boundaries. So, it's unnatural. for you to not have some sort of. negative emotion or negative response to. being wronged, but um you don't want to. replace that or try to replace it with. forgiveness because you may accidentally.

u trip up the process and you you're not. really legitimately feeling forgiveness. You're basically just setting yourself. up to be wronged again. >> Yeah. My deal personally is uh Emily. always talks about what a forgiving. person I am because I I really crave. uh to forgive. >> Mhm. >> I don't know. I was about to say crave. forgiveness. I I crave forgiving. I. guess it sounds funny, but. >> I I just uh all all I need is for.

someone to say they're sorry for. something. >> and then it's done. Uh nine times out of. 10 that's done for me. And as far as. forgetting, like I'm a pretty good. forgett, too. I don't know about like. literally forgetting something, but I I. definitely look back on a a lot of. relationships, especially with like. ex-girlfriends that were terrible, and. go, "Oh, what was so bad in there in. that relationship? We were pretty good, right?" Like, no, we weren't pretty good. at all. >> I just have rosecolored glasses. And uh.

I think you and I are both like as as. podcasting partners and family and team. good about when we have little dustups. forgiving one another if the other. person like says they're sorry. Like you. and I both get over that stuff pretty. quickly. >> Yeah. >> Which is. very key though, you know, like. >> Oh yeah. >> You can't forgiveness is like from the. heart. If you really if you're hanging. on to something, then you're not done. with it yet. >> No. But so and that is so important, Chuck. That's important for the.

individual to remember that if you if. you are unable to forgive, that means. that you're you're still hanging on to. it. That doesn't mean you'll never. forgive. And it also doesn't mean you. have to hurry up and forgive. It means. you're still in the process of reaching. the point where you can forgive. >> It's a deliberate choice from everything. I've seen in the research. You are. making a deliberate choice to forgive. somebody, but it's not throwing a. switch. It's part of a process. And. during that process, while you're on the. road to forgiving the person, you're. still going to be kind of angry at them.

Maybe not the whole time, but every once. in a while, it might hit you before you. fully forgiven them, and you're going to. be mad about it all over again. That's. okay. That's normal. That's natural. You. can't really rush it. You can, but it's. going to be detrimental. What you want. to do is just kind of let it play out. and have faith that if you're on the. path to forgiveness, you'll ultimately. will forgive the person and things will. be good again. >> Yeah. And depending on uh your your life. and your childhood, like you probably. have an inclination or an instinct to. forgive or not based on what you saw,

what was modeled. There's there's both. nature and nurture involved. But I think. people generally have an instinct of. revenge or forgiveness. And to do one or. the other that is against that instinct. requires great effort. Uh especially in. the case of forgiveness cuz you may not. be inclined to be a forgiver at all. That doesn't mean something's wrong with. you. Mhm. >> That just means that's probably what you. saw growing up. Or maybe something. happened to you when you were young that. makes it harder for you. Uh but it's. still possible to get there. It just.

might be tougher. >> Well, what's neat is another thing that. the field of psychology is telling us. about forgiveness is that it can be. taught. You can learn to forgive. Even. if you were raised in an unforgiving. um uh um environment where you never. learned how to do that, you can learn. how to do it. Um and uh I say we kind of. jump to those um to how to forgive um. before we go into physical health. because I feel like we're kind of there. right now. >> Yeah. Well, let's take a break. >> Okay. >> Let's take our final break and uh we'll.

talk about that when we get back as well. as this one sort of interesting study. I'd like to hit real quick, too. >> Okay. [music]. >> [music]. >> learning [singing] stuff with Joshua and. Charles. [music] Stuff you should know. [music].

[music]. All right. So, there's this study that. Dave dug up that I thought was. interesting. I think it's flawed, >> but interesting. >> Extreme social psychology. >> They took 46 people. They divided them. into two groups. One wrote about a time. uh when they had something uh some wrong. committed against them, but they. forgave. The other wrote about a time.

when they had something wrong committed. against them, but they did not forgive. >> And then they told those people to stand. at the bottom of a hill to estimate how. steep it was. and also in a separate. part of the study to jump as high as. they could. The unforgiving group. guessed that the incline was 5° steeper. on average than the forgiving and the. forgivers jumped 7 cm higher. [laughter]. So [snorts] the takeaway here is is you. literally it's more difficult for you.

you see the world as being more. difficult and steeper and you can't jump. as high and you can't accomplish as much. if you're holding [snorts] on to that. All kinds of red flags here to this. study, especially when it comes to the. jumping part. >> Yeah, >> but uh I thought it was interesting the. the guessing the incline of the hill. There may be something to that. Well, yeah. And I mean, it is backed up, Chuck, by the physical the physiological. um studies of how um how stress and.

anger affect you and how releasing those. can actually help you. >> Um there's a lot of research that shows. that you can um suffer from chronic. stress when you're angry all the time. and that that's tied to everything from. high blood pressure to um diabetes to. poor cardiovascular outcomes. um just a. whole host of chronic conditions can be. traced back to chronic stress and. chronic stress can be traced back to. chronic anger. And what they've what. they're discovering is that forgiveness. can actually undo that, can actually.

reverse that. There was a study that um. that that uh rated people based on the. life stresses they'd had. And they. apparently recruited um participants for. this study who'd been through a lot of. stress. So much so that they were. basically always chronically stressed. because they have had so many terrible. events in their life. And there was one. group that actually um did not have poor. health compared to the rest of the. group. And they found that when they.

gave them a test of uh forgiveness of. how how forgiving they were generally, they found that this subset was actually. overall a very forgiving group and that. that somehow was battling back the. chronic stress or the effects of chronic. stress on their health in life. >> Yeah. I mean I I think that makes. complete sense. If you are someone who. really has a problem with forgiving and. just holds on to these deep deep. resentments against people,

>> usually against people very close to you. and your family even. Um that that just. that can't be good for you physically. I've seen it happen. I don't want to get. too personal, but there are people in my. family who haven't spoken for 20 plus. years. >> Mhm. >> Over dumb stuff that it's like you see. that kind of like stubbornness coupled. with. >> uh resentment and it's just man that is. just no way to live. >> Yeah.

>> No way to live. >> Yeah. So there was another one that um another. study that uh Dave turned up that um. shows that even like in a very short. term uh thinking about holding a grudge. can actually affect you physiologically. >> Yeah. >> By activating your sympathetic nervous. system as Dave puts it the battle or. scadaddle impulse. >> [laughter]. >> And they found that this um these they. they cut these two groups into um or. they cut the participants into two.

groups. All of the people had to think. about some time when they were deeply. wronged in the past. Yeah. And then one. group was taken through an exercise. where they learned to forgive the. person. >> The other group, this is so mean, was. encouraged to hold a grudge. They were. basically taught, they went through an. exercise to hold a grudge and be angry. and resentment or resentful about that. And they found that the people who were. taught to hold the grudge had elevated. skin conductance, which meant their. nervous system was aroused. Higher.

arterial blood pressure, not good. Um. they also had muscle tension in the brow. area. You know when your brows furrowed. when you're stressed out or mad. >> Sure. >> And that they they um the symptoms even. after they went through an exercise to. basically deescalate everything, the. symptoms persisted. And this was just a. a an exercise where you were just. thinking about being wronged and then. holding a grudge about it just just like. a probably this was like an hour out of. their lives. And that's that was the. effects that was the findings of that. So it's pretty clear that that yes anger.

can can affect you um physically and and. what they haven't we don't have the. reams of data that we have supporting it. like we do that anger hurts you. physically. But there's a there seems to. be the opposite of that holds true which. is releasing that anger which is. forgiveness in whatever form it takes. can actually improve your health as. well. >> Right? Uh earlier in the episode we were. talking about religion all religions. talk extensively about forgiveness.

>> And when they do studies these days. usually like questionnaires and stuff. Um depending on the studies you look at, you would think religiosity does play a. role in that people who describe. themselves as religious. um. supposedly in some studies are two and a. half times more likely to say that. others should be forgiven. unconditionally. But I know you found. some studies that found that uh. religiosity does not play as big a role. as a lot of people think it does.

>> Yeah. and that uh sometimes uh religious. people may be more inclined to say that. they are forgiving when they aren't. because it's the right thing to do. >> Yeah. The study found that when when you. ask basically when you survey them. people who are religious tend to come. off as more forgiving. They self-report. as forgiving, right? But then if you ask. them other certain questions um I guess. in the in real world situations, they're. no more forgiving than other people. But.

so that would be an interpretation that. they they think they're more forgiving. or tell people they're more forgiving. than they actually are. But there was um. another way to look at it too. And they. went back and and followed up on that. study and they found that over a longer. term, people who are religious actually. do tend to be more forgiving in their. lives. >> It wasn't like the most set in stone. study, but I found it interesting that. they were they had it harder. the the. religious people in this study um had.

more difficulty in um relating grudges. that they're carrying around compared to. the control group of people who weren't. religious. >> Yeah, >> makes sense. >> Sure. >> There was some redemption there. >> Yeah. Uh as far as how to forgive, like. we said, hopefully we've gotten it. through that is something you can learn. if you are not an inherent forgiver. You. can learn how to through practice. Uh. there's a a psychologist named uh. Worthington.

>> Everett Warthington. >> Edward. >> Everett. >> Everett Worthington. >> There should be a third after that if. you ask me. >> Totally should be. Uh and Worthington. has developed the reach model which. we'll go through. It's um it's an. acronym. >> of course. >> Recall is the first step. uh and that's. to really recall the event in detail but. in sort of an objective way and not. necessarily something that was done to. you but just to look at the detail of it. and try not to judge yourself or the.

other person just simply bring that back. to your mind. >> Yeah. And the point of that is to feel. the feelings like we have we humans have. such a tendency to try to get away from. negative feelings and run toward. positive feelings. And um I think. Worthington's position is that we have. to feel whatever feelings are associated. with it. And that's a huge part of it. That's we have to go through that. experience. That's part of the recall. >> Right. The E stands for empathy. Um this. is one that is I don't know about.

controversial, [clears throat]. but it's it's not everyone agrees at all. on whether or not you need to actually. have empathy to forgive. Mhm. >> Um, but empathy can certainly help you. forgive. If someone has uh broken into. your home and stolen from you, uh, it. might help to forgive them to empathize. and think about where they may be in. their life to feel like they needed to. do something like that. Uh, is one. example. >> Yeah. And the he points out also like. you're not excusing their behavior, but.

you're just thinking about them beyond. just a villain or criminal or person who. wronged you. For sure. And actually, we. should say Everett Worthington had to. put his money where his mouth was. because his mother um was actually. murdered by a burglar. Yeah. I think. back in 1997 y. >> and he put himself through this um the. the the reach method and he said he came. out on the other side better off than he. had been. >> And I think he was already doing this, right? That didn't inspire his career, did it?

>> No, no, I think he was already doing it. coincidentally. >> Wow. The ironies. So the A stands for. altruistic gift and the point of this is. that you realize that you are actually. um giving a gift by forgiving somebody. even I guess if you don't tell them even. if you don't necessarily empathize with. them but that the way you do this the. way you um you you recognize that your. forgiveness is an altruistic gift is to. think about times where you've wronged. somebody and that they've been forgiven.

or forgiving and and even if you didn't. nec necessarily deserve it. And what a. gift that that was. You're kind of. bringing it to mind. Uh which I think is. really suspiciously kind of tied in with. empathizing if you ask me. >> Yeah. I mean, he was trying to make the. word reach. >> Sure. [laughter]. Uh commit to this is what I mentioned. earlier about telling someone else. Doesn't necessarily have to be the. person you're forgiving, although that. could help uh if you want to go that. route. But telling someone else, at. least in Warthingington's mind, makes it.

uh gives it a degree of permanence. And. it basically makes it part of your story. like you're changing the story. essentially. >> Exactly. And then hold. And this is very. important too that we said earlier you. you can forgive and it doesn't. necessarily mean you're going to forget. So when you do remember that kind of. thing, you're still going through the. process and you're still angered by it, you're still hurt by it, but you're on. the path to forgiveness, you have to. hold on to the to the idea that you're. you're working on forgiving them, that.

it's not an instantaneous thing. So you. have to hold the fact that you're. forgiving them even in the face of, you. know, being triggered by or flooded by. this again when you think about the. memory of it, >> right? Uh Luskan has a nine-step process. which we weren't we're not going to. really get into, but step eight is. interesting. >> Uh just like says, living well is the. best revenge is the sort of the nuts and. bolts of number eight. And uh there's. something to be said for that. But I I. think it also makes it much harder to. forgive and move on if you're not able.

to live well. And that doesn't mean, you. know, money and riches and stuff like. that, right? >> That means just living a a a full life. But if you're not able to forgive and. get past that, I mean, there are plenty. of movies of people that have been have. some awful thing from their past that. they're just wallowing in all these. years later. And that's the the central. plot of the film, you know, >> she devil [laughter]. who's. >> right. But that's I mean that's the. that's the point of forgiveness is to is.

to free yourself to find peace within. yourself. And yes, it's great for the. person who wronged you if you overtly. forgive them and let them know, but you. don't have to. And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school of thought in. psychology that says not only do you not. have to tell the person that you're. forgiving them, you don't have to. forgive them, >> right, >> at all. And that there's this this whole. almost kind of um not culty, but really.

kind of dogmatic uh idea that if you. don't follow these steps and you don't. like genuinely fully forgive somebody, you really haven't worked out the. process. There's something wrong with. you. Maybe you're an unforgiving person. and that makes you tacky. That's what. psychologists call it. Um, and there's a. whole group of psychologists say, "No, no, no. There's a there's way more to. this process than just, you know, nine. steps or the reach method." Like there. there's it's more nuanced than that. And. that you can be a fully functioning uh.

emotionally developed person who says, "You know what? I don't forgive you. I. may never forgive you, but I'm still. going on with my life. And if the point. of forgiveness is to achieve peace in. yourself, if you can achieve peace in. yourself and and you do it without. forgiving somebody because you don't. want to forgive them or you don't feel. like you should forgive them, then. that's okay too. As long as you're. you're getting inner peace, that's the. point.

>> Yeah. And there is a school of thought. saying that uh in cases where like it's. a harm has been committed to you that. could happen again. >> Uh you may be more likely to have that. harm committed to you again if you do. forgive too much. >> There is research about uh spousal abuse. that when you are too or when you're. quick to forgive the abuser then you are. victimized more regularly than spouses. who aren't as forgiving. And uh that's. that's based on operant learning.

Basically, you're less likely to engage. in a behavior that has a negative. consequence. So, they've done plenty of. research on that. And a lot of. psychologists. uh say like, "Yeah, forgiveness is. great, but uh while you shouldn't be. bitter, there are a lot of times when. you should not forgive somebody and. that's okay.". >> Yeah. There's a whole um there's a. article from 1999 on Psychology Today. called must we forgive? And it is really. interesting. It's fascinating. It's this. psychologist writes about probably half.

a dozen or more people and their. different individual circumstances and. the reasons they chose not to forgive. And um she kind of pigeon holes them. into like three general categories, but. because psychologists love doing that, >> but it's a really compelling article and. it's definitely worth reading and it it. provides this kind of alternative idea. that like no, there's definitely. situations where some people don't. deserve your forgiveness. One of the. chief among them is if you say like a a. sibling or a family member of some sort.

Um you have a like some sort of falling. out with or they've wronged you and you. choose not to forgive them. You might. feel tremendous pressure from the rest. of your family to just go ahead and. forgive them. That's a terrible reason. to forgive somebody. And if you do. forgive them under those circumstances. or say because your religion decrees it, um you're like that's not full. forgiveness and it may actually harm you. because you may suffer um from from a. distorted self-image or or lowered.

self-respect because you basically went. back to this person who not only wronged. you in the past, is unrepentant about. it, but is just going to continue the. behavior again in the future. So there's. definitely instances that where like you. probably shouldn't forgive, but that. doesn't mean that you should be stuck in. resentment and anger and letting that. person have power over your life. You. might just need to move on without them. and without forgiving them. And you can. make that work as well. >> Yeah. I mean, there was that one.

terrible story that you sent about the. woman who as a child had this terribly. bullying and abusive older brother. Mhm. >> And we won't even talk about the awful. things this guy did, but the parents. were really pu always pushing like, "Oh, he just doesn't he doesn't know how to. say he loves you. He doesn't know how to. talk to you, so he does these things and. you really need to forgive him." And. that's just that's bonkers. You know, that that is a situation where you were. doing such great harm as a parent to to. teach your daughter to accept this kind.

of behavior, >> right? >> And not only accept it, but forgive it. It's like just setting her up for unless. she really therapies through that stuff. later in life. >> of just a series of terrible. relationships. So, >> Exactly. Yes. Yes. >> You can't uh forgiveness isn't always. the thing. Um. my I have a friend who had a a a. terrible thing happen to him when he was. younger and he we talked a lot about. this and he has forgiven that person in. his heart and I was like, "Well, I.

haven't." And I was like, I'm still. angry about it. >> And he was like, thanks. Like, that. helps. Like, I'm angry and have not. forgiven on his behalf. >> And I thought he was going to say like, no, man. You need to do the same. And he. was like, >> brother. >> He was like, thank you, man. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> I appreciate that. >> Yeah. And I think that's another another. thing worth pointing out, too, is we. have this concept of people who forgive. others being saintly. Yeah. >> And and it's not necessarily that kind.

of a thing. It's not necessarily that. kind of a process. Sometimes it is just. straight up self-preservation. Like you. are that's the way that you're going to. get to a po a point where you can feel. peace again in your life. And that. doesn't mean you're a saint or you're. even feeling saintly or you're. conducting yourself in a saintly manner. And that doesn't matter as long as. you're feeling inner peace and your life. is no longer in turmoil and this person. who wronged you doesn't have power over. you any longer. That's the point of. forgiveness. >> Yeah. And that that was totally the deal. in his case is that was his only way.

forward to to healing himself. >> But since this wasn't something that. happened to me, I was able to not. forgive, >> right? >> And and remain upset about it. And uh he. he was okay with that. >> Yeah. And still to this day, you won't. buy that guy beers. >> Oh man. So, um, there's one other thing that has. started to kind of come out of the. shadows that's just getting picked up by. psychology as far as forgiveness goes, and it's self forgiveness. And we don't. really have room to talk about that. here, but it's worth exploring sometime,

maybe in a short stuff. >> Yeah, that's a big deal. Just uh, a lot. of times when I'm beating up on myself, Emily says, "You need to be nicer to my. friend.". >> Oh, I know you've you've told that. before. I always just think that's like. one of the sweetest things I've ever. heard. What a kind thing to say. >> It works. You know who needs to hear. that? Don Henley, [laughter]. >> you got anything else on forgiveness? Charles, >> I got nothing else. It's This is a good. weighty philosophical discussion. I like. these. >> Agreed. Thanks a lot to Dave Roose for.

helping us out with this one. Uh, and if. you want to know more about forgiveness, you should seriously go out and do some. reading. Especially if you have. something to forgive, it's not something. you necessarily can understand just. instinctively. It helps to see what the. experts [music] say. So maybe go explore. that and free yourself. As I said free. yourself, that of course means it's time. for listener mail. >> Uh I'm going to call this dental art. Hey guys, been a listener for a while. I've nearly finished uh with the.

sandwiching method before I knew it was. even cool. [snorts] Uh we were talking a. few shows, you were talking a few shows. back before the holidays about um. putting a kidney stone in Chuck's uh. [music] replacement tooth. This would be. unusual, but people actually get custom. inlays and artwork made for their. crowns. Inlays are generally gold or. gemstone with a custom artwork. Uh, and. it's referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is hand painted onto the crown. before it gets a final coat of glaze. >> Uh, the most common request here in the. Chicagoland area are sports logos.

>> Oh, no. >> Like a little Chicago Cubs logo on your. tooth. >> Uh, but I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny version of Starry Night on a. tooth. Uh while a lot of modern crown. and bridge manufacturing has gone. digital, highly leveraging CAM, Macad, and 3D printing for most [music]. restorations, tooth tattoos are unique. manifestation of the relatively unknown. artistry of a subset of dental. technicians. >> Wow. >> Uh while I recognize the dentistry as a. whole is widely disliked and a pain to. endure, I appreciate that you guys.

probably unknowingly helped to uh. destigmatize restorative dental work by. openly talking about your dealings with. it. Uh tooth wear and decay is part of. the human condition. No need for shame. After all, it [music] will keep me and. my cadra employed and happily listening. to stuff you should know. Many regards. Uh that is from Eric uh Crowley or. Crowley. Probably Crowley. >> I'm going with Crowley. >> in Park Ridge, Illinois. >> Very nice. Thanks a lot, Eric. That's. awesome. Can you imagine seeing Starry.

Night on a tooth? I got to look that up. >> Be wonderful. I'd have the scream. >> Well, that's a good one. And then you. could scream whenever you reveal it, too. >> Yeah. Just freak people out. Um, and. speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I feel. like we should congratulate our Georgia. Bulldogs [music] for winning the. national championship. >> Yes. Never thought I would see the day. Uh, what a great [music] great game. Uh, just unbelievable feeling. Two. championships in 3 months for this. long-suffering Atlanta/ Georgia band. >> I know. It's amazing.

>> I don't even know how to reconcile. [music] these feelings that I'm having. lately. [snorts]. >> They'll be robbed from you next year. Don't worry. It'll go back to normal. But that is pretty great to to go out on. a highlight. >> Probably was great. Go dogs. >> Go dogs indeed. And if you want to get. in touch with Chuck and I and Jerry or. Frank the chair or Harry dog even, we. can probably pass along emails you send. You can wrap your emails up, spank them. on the bottom, and send them off to. [music] stuff at iiheartradio.com.

>> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, [music]. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.