Selects: How Dopamine Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, happy Saturday. Uh Chuck. here with a curated selects episode in. which we bring out a classic from Dusted. Off from the Old Dust Bin. So you can. give it a listen. Uh this one is called. How do Dopamine Works and it's one of. obviously one of our more sciency. episodes and I managed to struggle to. get through it cuz you know I'm not good. at these. But it was a great episode. So. I hope you like it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. The three amigos back together. again after some massively triumphant. live shows. >> Yeah, we did our little Northeast spring. swing. >> Yeah. And it was great. It was a good. show. >> Which one? >> The the podcast topic that we did that.

we did live. Oh, I got you. That we're. doing all year. >> I gotcha. It was pretty good. I love. that that topic. >> That's what you call an on sequer. >> But it does feel good to be back, doesn't it? Back in the studio, back. doing what we're born to do. >> I kind of prefer on stage, but sure. This is great, too. >> Do you you like the the thrill of the. audience, the roar of the crowd, that. bowl running at you? Yeah. >> Nice. Um I like it too sometimes when. I'm not totally terrified because I.

drank too much energy drinks. >> Well, I wonder if uh your dopamine. receptors are functioning as they. should. >> Yeah, that's a great question, Chuck. Um. and it's a wonderful segue, too, because. it just so happens that today the topic. of this episode is dopamine. And there's. probably no more misunderstood. neurochemical, certainly neurochemical, maybe substance in your body at all than. dopamine. We used to think we had a. really great handle on dopamine and what. it does and how it works. And it turns.

out that we are every at every turn a. new study comes along that says, "Nope, we're wrong. Yep, we're wrong about. that." Well, what about yep, wrong about. that. basically everything we know in. popular culture and I mean if you even. gone to like Cleveland Clinic website or. WebMD website or Harvard Health has some. articles you'll see this old antiquated. outdated view of what dopamine is being. kind of paraded around the idea that. it's a a pleasure inducing chemical that.

if something gives you pleasure. you're you're responding to a hit of. dopamine and that is just absolutely not. true. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this this may be the. most off-covered. stuff you should know thing that hasn't. gotten its own title yet. >> Yeah, man. That dopamine is is the. reigning champ right now. >> Yeah, we talk about this stuff all the. time. It seems like. >> um Yeah, we do because it comes up a. lot. And the reason why is because it. turns out it has a lot to do with with.

more than just pleasure. Like like. everybody, yes, it is associated with. pleasure, just not the way we've thought. for very long. And it does a lot of. other stuff, too. Essentially, what it. does is it signals things. It says, "Hey, you you behave or you act up. You. stop behaving." Something like that. I'm. not quite sure exactly what it says. I. don't speak dopamine, but it's a. neurotransmitter. So, it's a chemical. messenger in the brain at base, but it's. associated with so many different things.

that of course dopamine comes up all the. time in our our podcast. >> It sure does. So, uh, it is, like you. said, a neurotransmitter, one of more. than a hundred of those bad boys, uh, functioning in our bodies, and it, like. you said, it lets things communicate. Uh, it's a a facilitator. Um, but it's. it gets all the press for its um, you. know, like the feel-good stuff that you. mentioned. um addiction behaviors, whether it's gambling or drugs or or the.

thrill of uh you know those people that. walk around on ledges and stuff. >> Ledge walkers. >> Yeah, ledge walkers. Uh but it does all kinds of things. That's just the where it makes the the. newspaper headlines, >> right? >> Um but we should probably talk a little. bit about just the neurotransmitter. cycle that it goes through. >> Sure. So the whole thing starts, it turns out. that dopamine is used throughout the.

body, but the the it in for the most. part it's used in the brain. The problem. is is if you like had a big handful of. dopamine and you just shoved it in your. mouth, it couldn't make it into your. brain for use. It can't cross the bloodb. brain barrier. In other words, fortunately, the thing that makes. dopamine up, its essential ingredient, tyrrosine, an amino acid, can cross the. bloodb brain barrier. And when it gets. there, it gets um a big fat hug from.

something called tyrrosine hydroxilase, and that converts it into dopamine. And. all of a sudden, your brain's like, "Yes, let's go.". >> That's right. And we've known about it a. long time. It's been around a long time. It is not exclusive to human beings. >> No, that's a big one. >> Uh yeah, it's in all all kinds of. animals. Um but we are really um kind of. great at making it and I was about to. say hooked on it, but that implies the. whole addiction thing and I don't want.

to go down that road, but uh humans love. this stuff and we produce about three. times as much as other primates do. >> Yes. And in fact, Emily Deans uh wrote a. a article in 2011, I think on Psychology. Today. She's an evolutionary. psychiatrist, and she said that dopamine. is what made humans so successful. And. from what I can tell, the latest. research about dopamine is that it. essentially is what allows us to learn. about the world around us. We make.

connections that collectively form our. mental map of the world, of how we're to. behave around other people, of how we do. things like go get food. Like that. dopamine is somehow behind all of it. And that because we're so um responsive. to dopamine and we produce so much. dopamine compared to other animals in. the animal kingdom. Um, that is conceivably what has allowed us. to become as successful as we are.

compared to other animals. Isn't that. nuts? Like it could all just come down. to dopamine essentially. >> Yeah. And opposable thumbs maybe. >> Yeah, sure. But I mean, what are. opposable thumbs if you can't have get. the wherewithal to move it? >> True. But if you had the wherewithal to. move it and you couldn't grab something. the heels of both hands just like a. thumb. >> Are you underelling the opposable thumb? >> Yes. I'm sick of the opposable thumb. always hoging the spotlight. It's.

dopamine's time. >> You can get those removed, you know. See. how you do. >> I guess I that sounds like a dare to me. Chuck, >> say goodbye to your tennis game. >> I can play it just by holding the racket. with the both heels in my hand. >> Or I guess we should have said pickle. ball. That'd be more current, right? I. don't play pickle ball. >> I haven't tried it yet. I'm I want to. though. >> Okay. Well, there's plenty of places and. people to play it with. >> Yet, I have found no one or no place. >> Oh, I'm sure somebody will write in and.

offer to play with you. >> Of course. Uh then I go out there and I. like blow my ACL or something. Oh god, >> that was nice. Uh so at the highest. level, you know, we kind of talked about. this a thousand times before, but. dopamine um functions as a. neurotransmitter. It enables signals to. pass through these these gaps, these. synapses, and make connection from. neuron to neuron. And that's just sort. of the bird's eye view, but there are. all kinds of things that dopamine does.

And depending what kinds of neurons it's. talking to and it's introducing to one. another, um it's going to have different. effects on the human body. >> Yes. So there's D1 to D5, I think, uh. types of receptors, dopamine receptors, um and four pathways that they follow. And like you said, depending on what. receptor is being activated and what. pathway is being followed, all sorts of. different stuff can happen. Um, dopamine. is associated with motor control,

learning, memory. Malfunctions in it can. result in psychosis. Um, they use. dopamine as a vaso stimulant to treat. heart conditions. It has just a cluster. of different effects on the body. depending on where it's being processed, like what pathway it's being processed, right? And I think I said there's four. of them total. >> Did you want to talk about those? >> I feel like we should. >> Okay. The first one is the nigro. strriatal tract. >> Nice. >> Uh you mentioned motor control first and.

that's the tract that has to do with. motor control. >> Yeah. So if if those aren't working uh. correctly, the one that the dopamine. neurons or the dopamineeric pathway in. the nigrostrial tract that can result in. Parkinson's. It's very famously. associated with dopamine for anybody who. has read Awakenings or saw the movie. >> Yeah. which we'll probably talk about a. little bit more later, >> that movie. >> Yeah.

>> Okay. >> I got a great great bit up my sleeve. >> Okay. Uh the second pathway is the Messo. uh corticol pathway. That has a lot to. do with executive functioning. Yeah. >> Uh prioritizing stuff, how your brain. plans things, how it files away stuff, and how it um you know, how it organizes. your overall um sort of priorities. >> Yes. And now it's time to talk about the. most random dopam dopamineergic pathway. of all. The tubereroan funibular.

pathway. Tubo and funibular. Yeah, >> I think you had it right the first time. >> Okay. Um, we'll edit out the second one. then. >> All right, >> we'll put in a slide whistle over it. So, that connects the hypothalamus and. the pituitary gland. And it's from what. I can tell I was like, well, what else. does it do? It's sole the sole role of. this pathway is to block the production. of milk or to yes to to prevent the. production of milk in uh the female.

breast of mammals. That's what it does. That's that that's that pathway's role. And if you block that pathway, the milk. production begins. Isn't that. interesting? >> Yeah. We talked about that in the. two-parter. The old breastfeeding. two-parter. >> Oh, we did. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, I don't remember that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's where it all. begins. >> No, I have a terrible memory. I know. you're making fun of me. Uh there's. there's also the messolyic pathway. Uh. we've talked a lot about the lyic system.

in the in many episodes, but uh reward. and emotion and this is the one where. this is the one that gets all the press. because this is the one that has to deal. with addiction. Um, and we're going to. talk a lot about reward and how reward. factors into how dopamine works, >> right? This is the reason why some. people get the chemical drawing of the. molecular drawing of dopamine like. tattooed on their wrist because they're.

such so hydonic and into pleasure. That's why you might see somebody with. that because of that pathway. >> I never heard of that. >> Yeah, it's a thing. It unfortunately it. turns out to be um a misinterpretation. but it is a thing that people do. sometimes. >> Sure. So uh you know we talked about. misunderstandings about dopamine and up. until not too long ago we didn't know a. lot about exactly how dopamine worked in. the body. And there was a a misguided.

thought that there was something called. volume transmission at work which was. you just sort of uh well you don't. flood. We'll talk about, you know, artificially flooding dopamine, which is. also a problem. >> uh that resulted from this um misnomer. But dopamine just went very slowly. It. was not very specific at all. Just kind. of washed over the brain. And if it made. some connections with various neurons, then that was kind of the dumb luck of. dopamine because dopamine is just dopey,

>> right? Here's a great example of just. how wrong we got dopamine. It turns out. it the process that dopamine is excreted. and crosses into the synapse and creates. like an electrical electrical. transmission in the brain is the exact. opposite of volume transmission. It. could not be more opposite than the idea. that it just floods slowly across the. brain and whatever it runs into it runs. into. We found that in milliseconds, a. precise squirt of dopamine hits exactly.

the right neuron in exactly the right. places. Right on the money. That's how. dopamine is excreted. The exact opposite. of volume transmission. >> Yeah. And we learned that not too long. ago. 2018 uh medical researchers at at. Hav released this paper and said, "Hey, guess what everyone? It's the opposite. of every everything you've been saying.". hanging everyone went, "Oh, okay. Sorry. about that.". >> Sure, >> might be. >> So, so, um, after the dopamine is.

excreted and it does its job, it. actually breaks down remarkably quickly. It turns into something, it's. metabolized into something called. homovanic acid, right? And from what I. can tell, I don't know what the homo. does to the vanillic acid, but vanilla, vanillic acid is the flavor of vanilla. So, from what I can tell, if you tasted. the the the homovanic acid, which is. like the metabolite found in cerebral.

spinal fluid that we test to see how. much dopamine you have in your brain at. any given time. It may taste like. vanilla. >> Wow. >> Isn't that interesting? >> It's gross. >> It is gross. And I don't know also if we. said that just 20,000 neurons are. capable of synthesizing dopamine, but. that's a really small proportion of the. total number of neurons we have too. About a 100 billion, I think. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You want to take a break?

>> Yeah, we'll break and we'll talk about. well what everyone wants to hear about. which is how dopamine and pleasure hold. hands with one another.

So check this whole un I should say. misunderstanding of dopamine as the. ultimate pleasure chemical. If you take. a drag off a cigarette, if you snort a. line of coke, if if the person you love. like touches your hand, um if if you get. like a a from from the teacher, like. you're going to get a hit of dopamine. and that's what that's what your reward. is. That's it's pretty old. It's an old. idea. At least it dates back to the. middle of the 20th century, which is. we're getting further and further away.

from, which makes me gulp. Um, but the. the disc that idea being discredited is. pretty old, too. Like, it didn't last. very long. The problem is its legacy. stuck around for a really long time. It's still around today. >> Yeah, for sure. There was a a. researcher, speaking of old, named James. Olds, uh, in the 50s and 60s who did. some experiments with rats and said, "Hey, every time I give these rats a. little electrical stimulation in just. the right place, right there behind the.

ear, >> uh, they're going to keep pulling that. lever down or whatever act I'm making. them do that they'll just do that over. and over and over and over and over as. long as I keep stimulating that area.". >> Right? So, what they said was, "Okay, there's something going on with dopamine. in and this this um I guess pleasurable. act that the that the rat is doing to. itself." And that got followed up in. >> Whoa. Whoa. >> That got followed up in the 70s by a guy. named Roy Weise who depleted dopamine.

receptors in rats. >> and found that they would not seek out. food and they wouldn't seek out. methamphetamines. that that were just there on the offer. those rats could have as much meth as. they wanted and they were like, "Nah, I. don't want any." And crucially, critically, Roy Weise and his colleagues. misinterpreted that as a lack of. experience of pleasure, not a lack of. motivation. And it wasn't until the 80s. that some other people came along and. were like, "No, we we've been getting.

this wrong all this time.". >> Yeah. In the 80s, they use uh sugar. instead of methamphetamine, I guess. And. once again, very kind of cruy, they cut. off um they they didn't allow them any. dopamine. They killed him off with. drugs, but this time they gave them the. sugar and they said um they they're. liking the sugar. You can tell by the. look on that little guy's face. >> that he enjoys it. But, and this is the. key, it's not coming back and saying, "Give me more sugar. Give me more. sugar.".

>> Right? Or give me more meth. >> Sure. So this whole thing this changed our. understanding at least in in the like. academia among people who study this. kind of thing. It we realized we were. misinterpreting what we were seeing and. that um a lack of dopamine didn't lead. to a lack of pleasure called an ahidonia. or anhidonia. Um it was a lack of. motivation to seek out that pleasure.

That's the effect of not having enough. dopamine that we found from those rat. tests. So like this whole new framework. of understanding it kind of came along. because to be clear dopamine is very. much associated with things that give us. pleasure. And it does seem like the more. pleasurable something is the more. dopamine gets released. Like for example. I think I saw like eating something that. tastes really good. >> um increases your dopamine levels by. 100% sometimes. Yeah.

>> But cocaine increases your dopamine. levels 10 times that. Yeah. >> So the more intense the pleasurable. experience is, the more dopamine gets. released. So it's definitely associated. with it. What they found is like the. dopamine is not making you feel. pleasure. There's something else. involved. It just it's never caught with. the smoking gun, but it's always there. when the dead body is found. And it has. this mysterious smile on its face. because it knows you can't prove. anything. >> Yeah. It Well, it's liking versus.

wanting. And that's a a theory of reward. behavior where liking is that that. pleasure um that that hit you get right. when you put that bite of peanut butter. pie in your mouth is that pleasure. >> Wanting is the motivation to earn the. reward that you get out of having that. peanut butter pie, >> right? Um, like you know, you're up in. the hotel room. They they don't have. room service, but you can get up out of. bed and you can get dressed and you can. get down the stairs cuz the elevator's.

broken and get that peanut butter pie if. you want to. >> Uh, but dopamine isn't enough to. motivate you to get up and go get that. peanut butter pie necessarily, even. though you have great great memories of. the taste of it on your tongue and you. love that stuff, >> right? But if you do get up and go get. that peanut butter pie, that means that. in the past you've had peanut butter pie. or have created an image of the peanut. butter pie you've never had, that's so. great that the dopamine is is produced.

in enough amounts to actually get you up. out of bed dressed and going down the. stairs to get that peanut butter pie. They're related in that way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so it's not. actually causing the pleasure. It's just. influencing how your brain is uh taking. all this stuff in basically. >> And there are a couple of different ways. of looking at how this happens. Um, there's one theory called a uh that it's. prediction error. So, >> right, >> you get you get more bang for your buck.

basically. Um, you you expect it to like. that peanut butter pie, but this was the. best peanut butter pie you've ever had, maybe the best dessert you've ever had. in your life. And. >> you're like, "Wow, that your brain says. that was way, way better than I thought. it was going to be." So it reinforces. it, >> right? And to put it in kind of. computational terms, dopamine is a. prediction error. Somehow that chemical. measures the difference between what you. expected and the amazing reward you got.

And the greater the difference, the more. pronounced a connection that dopamine is. going to make between going and getting. peanut butter pie and eating peanut. butter pie. So you'll have more. motivation to do it next time. >> Yeah. Uh the other way of thinking about. it is the the dopamine itself is the. motivational signal. So it's what makes. me get out of that bed and put on my. clothes and actually go down those. stairs because I'm motivated to go get. that that uh reward.

>> Right. And this is where that awakenings. anecdote comes in. >> Let's hear it. So, you were talking about how, you. know, the peanut butter pie motivating. you to get out of bed and actually go. Um, that definitely jibes with research, particularly um something reported by. Oliver Sachs in the book and then later. the movie Awakenings. There was a a an. epidemic of something called encphilitic. lethargia. Uh, which is what happened to. Robert Dairo's character. Remember, as a.

boy, he caught this thing and he just. kind of froze in place. Mhm. >> It's where you develop Parkinson's um. symptoms so much that you just don't you. can't move. You don't you're you're you. cannot move. You have you don't have the. required dopamine to actually move. So. you're just sitting there frozen in. place like a statue. But anybody who saw. this movie remembers being amazed by. this scene. If a certain patient is. stimulated, uh, their dopamine is. stimulated just enough, they can.

actually overcome that being frozen in. place. And so there's a famous scene. where, um, Oliver Sax tossed one of the. patients some oranges. >> and she caught them like she was a. frozen statue and all of a sudden she's. catching oranges and then juggles with. them. >> Yeah. Or there's another patient that um. was on the beach, I believe, in their. wheelchair, saw someone drowning, and. was motivated to get up and go save the. person and then come back and and go. back to this frozen statue kind of. stasis.

>> Great scene. >> It is. So like that that has to do with. the motivational aspect of dopamine and. that given the right stimulus even. something that tremendous as just just a. crazy amount of Parkinson symptoms can. be over overcome or overwhelmed by that. dopamine hit. >> Yeah, absolutely. And then jumping back. to that first one, the um prediction. error, they've done research on people. who gamble, who play cards and play the.

slot machines and stuff, and they their. brains experience uh about the same. amount of dopamine activity. When they. almost win, like you got that big pot in. the middle of the table, you're playing. poker, and you lose at the last second. Uh your dopamine level will be about the. same as if you had actually won it. >> Yes. which is pretty remarkable. >> And then I think it kind of qualifies as. a third interpretation. Um the the most.

current study I've seen sees dopamine is. essentially the thing that allows us to. learn. If you connect one thing to. another, it's because dopamine had you. make that connection. And then depending. on what kind of effect those two things. have on you, that connection might be. very very strong. So you're motivated to. go seek it out again. But at base, what. dopamine is doing is allowing us to form. connections. Imagine the world if we. didn't connect one thing to another. Like if I didn't connect turning on the.

computer and stepping up to the. microphone and recording a podcast, like. we wouldn't do anything. We would just. be completely lost if we couldn't make. connections. And it seems like dopamine. is the basis of all that. >> Yeah, it's pretty cool. >> Like the whole world would suffer. because we wouldn't be podcasting, Chuck. Well, that's debatable. Um, you know, we we're we're not poo. pooing the idea that uh addiction and. dopamine are are heavily tied with one. another. Um, we're just sort of trying.

to point out that uh there's a lot of. other things at play when it comes to. dopamine and that sort of has um. unfairly maybe gotten all the press, but. >> we do have to talk about it some more. We talked about it. >> um plenty of time certainly in our in. our addiction podcast episodes. Um, but. it does play a a pretty big role in drug. abuse and addiction. Um, it does. reinforce the the, you know, the the. idea that you want to keep using those. drugs because it's making you feel good.

>> Mhm. >> And when we're talking about, you know, you were talking about the uh the woman. juggling oranges in that movie and how. remarkable that is, >> right? if they've given you Parkinson's. drugs and they just flood your brain. with dopamine, they found that 10% of. the people that have had that treatment. um turn into gambling addicts. And I. would imagine there are people who who. already gambled. I don't think it like. drove them to start gambling. But that. just goes to show you the power of like.

what a flood of dopamine will do to your. brain. And it's it's pretty it's a. pretty clunky way to to deal with it, I. think. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what you were. referring to earlier when you were. saying like that understanding of volume. transmission. theory of of dopamine release. That's. what the drugs are based on like that. understanding or that misunderstanding. and like yeah that's what happens. It's. like yes if it does crawl across the. brain and runs into whatever neurons. that it can trigger it's going to have. all sorts of other knock-on effects.

>> Yeah, totally. So, um I guess our current understanding. of how dopamine relates to addiction is. that um it connects drugs with pleasure. And as I was saying before, the more. intense the experience, especially the reward, um you can have a. negative experience, and I think they're. starting to figure out dopamine has. something to do with that, too. But as. far as we know, the more intense the. reward, the the greater the flood of.

dopamine and so the greater the the. stronger the connection you make. between, you know, pressing a lever and. a scientist giving you a bunch of meth. >> Yeah, absolutely. But that is, to be. clear, just part of the recipe of what. leads to addiction. Um. >> I I don't. >> maybe there are people out there saying. that but I I don't know if anyone really. is saying like it's all because of. dopamine. No, >> it is part it is part of the recipe in. addition obviously to your genetics.

>> Um just the fact that drugs are out. there and available and their envir. environmental pressures and influences. Uh all kinds of reasons that people. start to take drugs or continue to take. drugs. And as far as the continuation, dopamine is is definitely a part of it, >> right? And so, uh, one of the ways that. you learn, um, to take drugs is not just. from the the fact that your your brain. is flooded with dopamine, which allows.

you to make that connection very. strongly. But, um, the brain actually. changes in response to those increased. floods of dopamine because it's not set. up to release dopamine like that. repeatedly over long periods of time. It. can do it once in a while. Yeah. But you. you you can't really do it too often. because then the brain responds by. shutting down dopamine receptors. The. problem is is that this means that you. have to do more drugs to get that. sensation as far as you know and that's.

what creates the cycle of addiction. That to me smells vaguely of being. almost out of date. >> Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But it does make sense then that the. ideal drug would trigger a maximum. release of feel-good chemicals. but a minimum release of dopamine. If. anybody could ever come up with a drug. like that, people would be able to do. drugs all the time. They'd never get. addicted. >> Sure. But you know, they have other.

negative effects on the body. >> Sure. Sure. Can't forget about that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um the other bad thing. obviously if you're going to um do the. amount of drugs it takes to shut down. your dopamine receptors because your. body's like wait this isn't right let me. shut this down. >> is it's not just shutting down the. dopamine receptor that makes you want to. you know do more cocaine or whatever. it's just shutting your dopamine. receptors down. So you mentioned it. earlier uh anidonia that's the idea that.

you don't receive pleasure from any. activity and if all of a sudden your. dopamine has been shut down such because. you've been doing drugs that you're not. getting any kind of um pleasant. feel-good stimulation from life then. that could be another reason that you up. your uh desire to do drugs. >> Yeah. And then there's one other factor. involved um that with fewer dopamine. receptor sites um remember you said that. one of those dopamineergic pathways is.

related to executive function like. impulse control, responsibility, that. kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> Well, with lower levels of dopamine, the. theory goes that you are more likely to. engage in reckless behavior to get. drugs. You might do things that you. normally wouldn't do, not because you're. just this this addict who has to have. it, but partially also because you don't. have the impulse control that you did. before you became addicted to to drugs. and your uh dopamine receptors started.

shutting down. >> Yeah. And I think that's uh I mean we. talked about it in the addiction app. That's it's not just the effect that the. drug has on your body, the the negative. effects that it physiologically has on. your body, but the behaviors that you. start engaging in when you're under the. influence of drugs and want more drugs. and maybe can't find the drugs. >> That's maybe almost worse than the. physiological uh ramifications, you. know. >> Oh, yeah. For sure. And it also ties in.

with risk takingaking because dopamine. is connected to risk-taking. And in fact. they found that some people seem to be. biologically. uh physiologically predisposed to. risk-taking based on uh their dopamine. levels. That in fact they find that they. have fewer what are called auto. receptors. Apparently over time we've evolved to um. create on uh dopamine neural cells a. site called an auto receptor that. actually catches some of the dopamine. It helps regulate it like it never makes.

it out. So it keeps the amount of. dopamine down to a regulated level. So. the fewer auto receptors you have, if. you're still pumping out dopamine, you. get a much greater uh impact from that. dopamine. And they have correlated that. to risk takingaking. People who have. fewer dopamineergic auto receptors uh. take more risks at least according to. some studies. >> Yeah. And they've also done studies. where um they found that that risk. should or needs to be tied to a reward.

like a gain basically. >> Um there was a study from the University. of College uh in London in 2015 that. said subjects whose dopamine levels uh. was higher. It was boosted artificially. with medication um would choose risky. options more often if it involved a. potential gain. um they didn't see that. same thing going on if there was a. potential loss involved. So there's. definitely a tie to um a gain or or. another way of saying that would be a. reward. >> Yes. And then also um that impulse.

control is also a huge hallmark of uh. ADHD symptoms. And so um ADHD is very. commonly associated with some sort of um. dopamine deficiency. And from what I've. seen, there isn't a like an. acrosstheboard. We haven't discovered. some across the board type of brain. that's like, "Yep, if you have this. brain, you have ADHD and vice versa.". Um, and we're not even certain exactly.

what effect the dopamine is having. We're almost just kind of like seeing. effects. uh that that are the behavior of people. with ADHD and saying, "Hey, that we know. that dopamine does that." or if you. don't have dopamine, you're more likely. to do this. So, there's this. correlation. It's just not we it's it's. never been like completely shown yet. I. think it probably will be at some time, but we don't really know how ADHD is. linked to dopamine, but there's we're.

almost certain that dopamine drives at. least some of the ADHD symptoms. It's. just because of that, people have made. leaps in understanding. Like there's a. um there's a a long-standing myth about. people with ADHD that they do these. impulsive behaviors to get a hit of. dopamine. Well, it's based on that old. idea that dopamine is a a pleasure. producing chemical or reward producing. chemical. Um where instead it might be. that people do these behaviors that are.

impulsive because they don't have the. dopamine that can regulate their. impulses and so they have less impulse. control. It's just we're just still. sorting it out, I guess. >> Yeah. Um All right. Should we take our. final break here? >> Yeah. >> All right. We'll take a break and we'll. talk about Oh, boy. It's going to be so. much fun. Social media right after this.

All right, so we're back and we promised. talk of social media because I think. everyone it's pretty hip to the the fact. now that um notifications and the and. the dings and the likes and the loves. and the hearts and all the things that. come through various interacting with.

various uh social med platforms. >> You just sounded so old, dude. I know. that's great. In this case, I love being. old. I don't want any of it. >> I'm with you. >> But in any case, all of that stuff. combines um to give you a hit of. dopamine and it's um specific and you're. like fine, that's great, whatever. But. it's specifically structured and built. that way and coded that way so that you. will become addicted to that social. media platform. And they have admitted. as such. uh in 2018 it was it was a big.

news item when they were uh I don't know. it was like congressional testimony or. something can't remember exactly but. there was a VP at Facebook um who came. out and was basically like hey this is. uh something we did on purpose and it. was uh a core foundation was the really. uh the quote that kind of stuck out with. how people behave uh using our platform. like it was a part of the the core. strategy to get people to come back.

again and again and again. >> Yeah. And that strategy was based on. this was Chamath Poly Hapedia uh who was. a VP of user development at Facebook and. they said that um this was based on. short-term dopamine-driven feedback. loops. And you know this is all old news. to us now. I mean this was six years. ago. Think about how much our. understanding of what social media does. to us. But in 2018 that was a. groundbreaking admission. Um, but it's. true and I mean that's essentially how.

social media works. Like you uh get the. app and you start to realize that um if. that little like badge number comes up. and says, "Hey, you have like two. notifications." You go into it, you're. going to get some sort of reward of some. sort. You're going to, like you said, get a ding or a like or a heart or. something like that. And that is a. reward to you. And so based on the the. um messolyic theory of dopamine, we get a dopamine hit and so we learn to.

come back. And apparently also uh. randomness has a lot to do with it. because the as we start to be able to. predict when we'll get a reward that. dopamine um stops being a part of that. whole experience. So if it can be done. randomly, we don't know when we're going. to get a reward. It has a maximum effect. of releasing dopamine and thus teaching. us to go back to social media over and. over and over again. >> Yeah, totally. Um, there's also this.

psychiatrist named Dr. Cameron uh se Ah, I guess sepa. >> Mhm. >> Is that how you'd say it? >> Sepa or SEPA? >> Okay, one of those three. um who came out and said, "All right, um. there's this term that I'm going to. float out there uh and it's called a a. dopamine fast." And the idea when that. was floated was people heard that and. they said, "Oh, well, dopamine just.

means just uh it's just a catch-all term. basically for for any sort of uh. addictive behavior like reinforcement.". And you can go on a dopamine fast and. like, you know, put that uh put that. social media app down for a couple of. weeks and when you come back, it's just. going to like your brain's going to have. a little rest from that thing and you're. going to feel amazing about how much you. love it when you come back. And that's. not at all what Dr. Cameron was talking. about or meant.

>> No. Huh. Dr. Dr. Seipa Sepa um was. basically saying like. like he really misused dopamine fast and. he even said to the New York Times like. I I didn't mean it like that. Don't. don't take it like that. I don't mean it. literally. Everybody said too late. We're going to take it literally. And so. there was a this this movement I think. people still do it of self-denial of. everything from like people stopped um. interacting with other people. People. stopped um eating foods they found.

pleasurable. They stopped um talking if. they didn't need to. Uh anything that. could conceivably give you a release of. dopamine. And the their their premise. was that if they did that, it would be. like going and drying out on heroin or. cocaine. So that when you come back, that that first um experience again with. heroin or cocaine is that much more. amazing because you've kind of. replenished your endockinabonoids and. opioids and all that stuff. Dopamine.

does not work like that. If you stop um. flooding your brain with dopamine, it. doesn't replenish. It doesn't need to. replenish. That's not how it works. But. that's what people were doing. They just. completely misinterpreted it and it was. based on faulty science and Dr. Seipa. essentially using the wrong term. >> Yeah. I think the idea that he was. talking about was, hey, put that stuff. down and go do other things that you. find pleasure in. >> Right. uh live in the world or go out in.

nature or you know kind of um get a hold. of your life again so you don't feel. like you're you know tied to this social. media app for your happiness. >> Yeah. Our moms used to call it going to. play outside for a while or summer I. think is another term it used to be. called. Yeah. But instead this guy. called it a dopamine fast and people. really took a left turn with it. So he. identified six compulsive behaviors or. categories that he was saying you could.

really you could really do a good for. yourself by taking a a dopamine fast or. a break from emotional eating, excessive. internet usage and gaming, gambling and. shopping, porn and masturbation, thrill. and novelty seeking, which I took to. mean taking a break from thrillkill. murder sprees, >> right? >> And recreational drugs. >> Yeah. But he also said, you know, anything that you feel like is got a. hold on your life, if you just stop and.

step away from it, it will have less a. hold of your life. So TV would. definitely be in there probably for a. lot of people. >> Yeah. >> But if you step back and look at what. this guy's talking about, it's the most. basic thing that people have been doing. for eons. And yet just by slapping. dopamine fast on it, it became sticky. and buzzy and brainstormmy or javastormy. and like super corporate and people just. really got into it and started thinking. like, you know, if I if I fast from.

dopamine when I come back, I'm going to. have so much dopamine that I'm going to. be the most motivated, focused, greatest. UX PM of all time. >> Yeah. Thanks a lot. >> And that's just not how it works, unfortunately. >> No. >> Yeah. I guess it's a weird way to end. this whole thing, but that's how it. ends, huh? >> Yeah. I mean, that's our current. understanding. >> Yeah. I feel like this is one we would. be able to do five years from now, just.

to kind of revisit. What do you think? >> Nah. >> Okay. >> I mean, we've never done that. >> That's dopamine as we understand it in. 2024. Everybody, >> that's right. >> If you want to know more about dopamine, go out and read about it. But be very. specific and selective of who you go. read. There are some popular people who. know what they're talking about out. there, but there's plenty that don't. So, I guess if you run across somebody. who refers to dopamine as a pleasure. chemical or something like that, just. turn around and walk away and go find. somebody else. Yeah. How about that,

Chuck? >> That sounds good. >> Chuck said that sounds good, everybody. And that means it's time for listener. mail. >> Uh, I'm going to call this uh from a. conductor. We heard from quite a few. conductors so far and that's just on day. one after release. So, it's um pretty. great to know that there are people out. there that know about this stuff better. than we do. >> That's amazing. >> Hey guys, thank you so much for the. episode about conductors. I squealled. with joy when I saw it in my feed as I. started my hourlong commute. I teach. high school orchestra and I'm an. orchestral orchestral, excuse me,

musician with uh former aspirations of. becoming a professional conductor. So, it was fun to hear an outsers's. perspective. uh you're wondering what. exactly is on each musician's stand. during a performance. Uh I love Chuck's. analogy of it being like an actor script. with only their lines and that's pretty. close. Uh but sometimes there are small. annotations of what to listen for from. other sections of the orchestra. Uh. particularly after a long section of. inactive playing or rests to help figure. out what you uh where you are in the.

music. >> Um that's the part remember I just. couldn't believe there'd be like nothing. to cue you. Um, and I saw other stuff. where there were uh sometimes numeric. notations and other conductors said. there were long uh bars and things that. you would pay attention to. Um, back to. the email though. Okay, >> this is another key job of the conductor. which you didn't touch on as much uh is. they have the entire score. They often. give entrance cues to uh specific. instrumentalists or sections. Additionally, there are usually.

rehearsal markers that uh delineate the. beginnings of phrases or larger. sections. This not only makes rehearsing. easier but also gives greater structure. and scaffolding to the player. It's. similar to punctuation or paragraph. structure in a novel. Experienced. musicians can often uh almost more or. less feel their entrances based on their. contextual knowledge of the piece and. the music phrasing. >> There's an old adage that you spend your. time practicing at home to learn your. part. Rehearsal time is spent learning. everyone else's.

>> Oh, that's cool. >> It's pretty good. Uh the conductor is. the facilitator of this process and you. hit the nail on the head guys. The. interpreter of the score that is from. Brittany. >> Man, Chuck, we did it. >> Yeah, we got I think four or five. conductors all wrote in and said like we. did a pretty darn good job on it. So. that feels great. >> Tell me they said Bravo. >> I didn't see a Bravo. No, >> sorry. >> Maybe we'll get one someday. >> Yeah, >> that's pretty great. Who is that from? Britney. >> Yeah, Britney. >> Thanks a lot, Britney. We appreciate.

that. And to all the conductors who. wrote in, uh, thank you to you all. And, uh, if you want to be like all the. conductors who wrote in, like Britney, you can send us an email, too. Send it. off to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.