Selects: How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Good day everyone. This is Chuck here on. a Saturday with a select episode about. conversion therapy. Boo. And you know. what? Regardless of what you think about. conversion therapy, uh, it doesn't work. And so that's why this episode is titled. How conversion therapy doesn't work from. November 2019. And if you're wondering. before you listen, what is conversion. therapy? That's when parents uh try to. make their uh LGTBQ, let's just put it. in that whole bucket, child not that.

And it's just not possible because. that's who they are. So, I hope you. enjoy this episode. And if you don't, keep it to yourself. [music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, [music] a production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's guest producer Josh over there.

>> Mhm. >> Don't be confused everybody. There are. more than one Josh in the world. [music]. That's nice to hear you finally admit. that. >> It's taking a long time. A lot of. therapy. >> Hey, nice segue. >> It's like a short stuff. I'm like, let's. get to it. Let's get going. >> Well, I have a COA to issue. >> [clears throat]. >> You know what cracks me up is people who. are still like, "What does that mean?". >> You figure it out. You can email us. >> Eventually, some people will. >> Uh, yeah. So, my COA is just a personal. COA that I'm going to try and just.

disguise my disdain for this [snorts]. entire topic. >> Okay. >> But I might not do a great job about it. >> Well, you've already shown your hand. All right. Good. That's my COA. >> Yeah. I Yeah. I don't think there's too many. stuff you should know listeners who are. probably into this. >> Yeah. What? But part of the problem, as. we'll see later in this uh episode, is. part of the problem with conversion. therapy's coverage in the media. >> Well, yeah. >> Is that uh it has largely been fairly. even-handed and described as like this.

controversial therapy and not said uh. this scam and this junk science fraud. >> perpetrated by zealots, >> super harmful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that's where I that's where I am. You know, that stuck out to me, too, that in the late 90s, we'll talk about. it. Um, especially when it was treated. even-handedly. Yeah. And it made me. think like we should do an episode on. that, >> like the like should the media treat all. sides of an issue equally? And if it.

does, does that just like perpetuate. ignorance? Or if it doesn't, does that. [clears throat] like support fascism? Right. >> Like that's a it's a hornets nest. I. really think we should do it sometime. >> It is. That's a good good call. Thank. you, Charles. >> I don't know how we I mean, I guess it. could be researched. >> Yeah, surely somebody's done a think piece on. it that we can springboard off of. [laughter]. You know, >> a think piece. >> Mhm. >> That's right. >> That's what we do most of our research.

on is [laughter] think pieces. >> Uh this is uh from one of our great. writers, Julia Leighton. >> And uh she put this a [snorts] lot of. this stuff together for us. >> Yeah, she did a good job on this. So, >> I like the additional histories you. found out though. >> Yeah, because this this so we we'll. define it first and then we'll talk. about some histories, but this stuff um. goes back way further than you would. think. But the what we're talking about. today is called conversion therapy, reparative therapy, exgay therapy, where.

um. >> reparative therapy is trademarked, by. the way, we should say. >> Well, you couldn't hear it, but under my. breath I said damn. [laughter]. >> More like TS. It was uh yeah, it was. trademarked by a psychologist named. Joseph Nicoloi. Yes. >> Senior. Um so uh what conversion therapy. is probably what we're going to mostly. call it, though. What it's what it is is. it's an alleged. psychological. theory and practice.

>> That is based on the idea that all. people are born heterosexual, >> right? And because of certain. um. certain events, >> past traumas, usually. >> traumas typically, but also um the. family dynamics play a huge role. >> Um people who would otherwise are meant. to be heterosexual can be accidentally. steered into homosexuality. >> and therefore can be or purposefully.

steered back, >> right? Cured. >> Yes. Cured. >> being gay, >> right? back to the righteous land of. heterosexuality. >> Yeah. And as you can imagine that this. is a uh very popular with the. fundamentalist Christian right. >> Sure. >> And um I mean like that's not even like. a a guess like it overtly is. They've. adopted and taken on exgay the exgay. movement as um as basically one of the. the. what what's it called in a temp pole? A.

temp post. >> Sure. it one of the planks in their in the. Christian rights platform for social. change. >> Oh, it is a an it was officially part of. the 2016 Republican party platform even. >> What? That's right. Which. >> the whole RNC? >> Yeah. Which has been called the 2016. platform has been called uh by far the. most anti-LGTVQ. platform in the nation's history. >> Wow. I mean, yeah, if that's a plank in. the party's platform, that's pretty.

significant. like they don't throw just. anything in there. >> No, they don't. >> So, um with the with with um the exgay. movement and uh conversion therapy, um I. saw it described at least back in the. late 90s as a front in the culture war. that's as strong and as significant as. abortion. Mhm. >> Like the the the Christian right in. particular is has basically dedicated. itself to stamping out gayness and by do.

by converting gay people to to. straighteness. The problem is is there. is no scientific evidence whatsoever. that that is even possible. >> Right? And the problem is when you try. and stamp out gayness that creates a. good beat that you can dance to. [laughter]. >> It makes that sound and they're like, "No, no, no, no. Stop stamping. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I had actually I went to Well, should I. say this? >> Oh, I don't know. >> Sure, why not? Cuz this is the truth. >> I went to a church camp once when I was. a youth.

>> Oh, I figured a story or two like you're. getting. >> and uh that they talked about uh. stomping your feet to the music or. whatever they were playing and they. literally said, "Don't alternate feet. cuz that's too close to dancing.". >> Wow. [sighs]. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And these weren't like uh I mean these. were pretty mainstream Baptist church. camps. It wasn't like I went to some. >> snake handling thing. >> No, not [laughter] at all. But. >> you did a really good episode on that. >> Yeah, that was a good one. >> Mhm. >> So anyway, stomp your feet everybody, right? >> Just don't alternate. [laughter].

>> That's hilar. So you stomp them both at. once cuz that's. >> No, just stomp one foot. Just stomp your. right foot. >> I was going to say that's just jumping. [laughter] lightly. Okay. So that's what. we're talking about is conversion. therapy. And like I said, it it um. became part of the uh Christian rights. kind of philosophy. and part of their. their culture war, the culture war. they're fighting. Um, but it goes back. way further than that than I think it. was the late '9s when the right kind of. adopted it. Um, as a matter of fact,

like as into the 19th century, there. were people who subscribed to this, but. they were all psychologists. This is. back in the time when you could be a. ghost investigator and say, "I'm a. psychologist." This is the the the times. when you could say, you know, this cigar. reminds you of your mother. You know. what I'm saying, right? >> Uh and you could be a psychologist. You. could be a father of psychology at that. point. >> Yeah. Uh you dug up a great article from. history.com called Gay Conversion. Therapy's disturbing.

uh 19th century origins by Aaron. Blakemore. >> And uh. >> nice attribution, Chuck. >> Yeah. Well, Aaron wrote a great article. and uh in it um she talks about in 1899. this hypnosis. Well, again, in the days. where you could be a hypnotist. >> and be a legitimate scientist at the. same time. >> Should I get into stage shows [laughter]. or psychology? >> That's right. Where's the money? uh but. he was German of course and he claimed.

to have turned a gay man straight after. 45 hypnosis sessions and some other. therapies and that's sort of the first. evidence of what we would later call. conversion therapy starting up. >> Yeah. Although I'm sure even before that. people they probably didn't call it. conversion therapy, but if you were an. affeminite man, you were no doubt. probably beaten by your parents and. shunned by your community, >> right? Um I think one of the other. things that's kind of a hallmark of this.

long tradition of converting people in. from being gay to straight or trying to. >> is this idea that um there's something. wrong with you if you're gay, >> right? and that that idea can actually. become hung up on the individual, the. gay person, so that they actually do. seek out help, >> right, >> in becoming straight. >> But the problem is is in seeking that. help, they're going to be frustrated and. they're ultimately probably going to be. um they're going to have feelings of. shame, guilt, inadequacy, that they're.

not capable of helping themselves, there's something wrong with them, why. can't they just be straight kind of. thing. And then if you're a minor and. your parents are forcing this on you, that then that raises a whole other um. can of worms of ethical dilemmas. >> Sure. >> But even from the outset, there were. probably people who sought out. hypnotists and other psychologists, right, >> for help. It wasn't just people walking. around kidnapping gay people and taking. them off the street and trying to. convert them, >> right? It could have very well been some. man that's like, "Wait a minute. I don't.

feel normal feelings uh because I'm. looking at Joe out there in the field. and things are happening. >> If you know what I mean, doc. And. they're like, "Well, come on in.". >> Watching him swing that scythe and take. his sweaty shirt off, ring it over his. face. >> That kind of thing, >> right? So, just sit down and follow the. wristwatch with your eyes, >> right? >> Or I guess the pocket watch. That'd be a. weird uh [laughter]. >> technique. Swing your arm. >> See, I'm moving my wristwatch. Uh but. from that same history.com article there.

uh she she talks about some of the early. attempts like with electrocomvulsive. therapy, >> labbotoies. I think we even talked about. some in the labbotoies episode. >> Man, they would give you a labbotomy for. anything. >> Oh, sure. >> What about testicular transplantation? >> Right. Because that was a theory from uh. a doctor, an endocrinologist named. Eugene Stein who thought that your. testicles were the root of the problem. >> Well, a lot of people did. Yeah, >> there was like a. >> you could have gay testicles literally.

and they would swap them out for. straight ones, >> right? And there's no I could not find. any evidence one way or the other that. any of these testicular transplants. worked or were successful. >> I don't think they were. >> But I didn't see anything that said like. all of them just failed or whatever. But. like what happened? They just shriveled. up and fall off or something. So. >> Well, you mean if it actually like. medically took to the body or Yeah, that's what I mean. >> Okay. You're saying like, "Did it. convert them? Did it work?". >> Right. Yeah. >> No. >> Yeah. >> That's the answer. But yeah, I didn't.

know that you could in the 1920s. >> uh have a testicle transplant. successfully. >> That's what I'm saying. Like I I surely. I mean at some point. >> and we must have talked about this in. the Michael um Dylan episode. >> Um I we talked about the I don't think. it was but it wasn't a transplant. It. was just a straight up removal and I. believe. >> castration. So, but at some point. testicles have been transplanted onto a. person successfully. When did that.

happen is my question. >> They probably did to a dog first, >> right? But I mean, think about it. Like, if it didn't work, well, sorry, you're. castrated now. >> Yeah. They probably didn't say sorry, though. >> No, but we took your gay testicles. The. heterosexual testicles just didn't pan. out, right? >> But now you don't have any testicles, gay or otherwise. >> That's right. Uh some of the other awful. techniques that they would use back in. the day um were uh chemicals that they. might have to make you wretch and vomit. when you look at you know pictures of.

people of the same sex. >> Yep. That's called covert sensitization. >> Yeah. >> Y. >> or if you're crossdressing maybe same. thing. >> Sure. Or. >> look in a mirror and be disgusted with. yourself and wretch and vomit. >> Yeah. And very sadly, if you have say. like a um someone you are in a. relationship with that you love, >> they might show you pictures of that. person and and um carry out aversive. therapy or aversive conditioning. >> Yeah. >> Um what's weird is you said these are.

these are things they used to carry out. From what I've seen, this stuff still. goes on today. >> Yeah, some of it. So what we're talking. about though back in the 19th and most. of the first half or so of the 20th. century, this was all like the domain of. psychology. And then eventually gay. psychologists and and other straight. psychologists too were basically like. this is wrong. >> Like the science is not adding up. >> Um this is just this is just incorrect.

>> Yeah. There were medical doctors too. though. It wasn't just psychologists, >> right? Sure. Yeah. So eventually uh in. 1973, the American Psychological Association. said, "Hey, big news. We're no longer. going to classify homosexuality as a a. mental disorder.". >> Right. And a certain part of the. population went, "Yeah, it's 1972. Why. did it take this long?". >> Right. Exactly. Yeah. >> But that was a big deal. And at that. point, psychology mostly abandoned the idea.

that being gay was a disorder of any. kind. And therefore, there was no point. in researching how to cure someone of. being gay. And so, it turned its back on. this whole history of um. >> conversion. >> Conversion. >> But it didn't fully die away. And I. believe starting in like the 80s, the. Christian right started to kind of pick. up on it and kind of breathe new life. into it again. >> That's right.

>> Think we should take a break? >> Yeah, that's that's a robust and a half. setup. >> Is that Oh, I thought we were already. into it. Oh my gosh. >> It wasn't just the setup. It was more. You're right. We'll be right back. All. the [music] stuff we learn from trash. and check. [music] stuff you should know. Learning stuff is fun with Josh and.

[music]. >> All right. So, let's talk a little bit. about cuz there's a couple of uh. couple of schools of thought here. Um, and I hesitate to one to call the one uh. more bonafide, but you know, there's. conversion therapy that can happen at a. licensed therapist's office. >> Uhhuh. >> And there's conversion therapy that can. happen in, you know, somebody's basement.

or the basement of a church. >> I was going to say basement, too. >> Yeah. Or a room. Doesn't have to be a. basement. I know but a basement makes it. seem. >> sinister. >> It's probably why I said it. >> Uh so there are two sort of ways that. can happen. Um we're going to talk a. little bit about the first way uh the. patented way uh reparative therapy. trademark by Joseph uh Nicoloi Senior. >> That guy doesn't even get the Italian. accent, man. And I don't blame you. >> He doesn't. Which we should say, by the.

way, uh in July of this year, Amazon. stopped carrying his works on their. website. >> Yeah. Because they considered them um. that that they promoted fraud. >> That's right. >> Which we'll get to. >> Yeah. Which is interesting. >> But this guy is like a psychologist. >> Yeah. >> He's he's a trained psychologist who. basically said, "I'm going to take. everything I learned and direct it. toward curing gay people of being gay.". >> Yeah. I don't know much about Do you. know much about his uh religiosity or.

>> I think he was Jewish. >> Okay. >> And born in Brooklyn from what I. understand. I wrote a really really. great um article, not a think piece but. a a memoir in the American Prospect um. from. >> American Prospector. >> from 2012. Yeah, >> this is different. >> They're gold by Gabriel Arana. >> Okay. >> Um it's called My So-Called Exgay Life. It's definitely worth reading, but it's. it's a great look at um conversion. therapy, but also is like overlaid with.

his like personal experience with it. >> Okay. Uh at any rate, his contention was. that uh like we said, um you develop. homosexuality. or homosexual feelings at least because. of a result of environmental conditions, childhood traumas. Uh and they call it. samesex attraction, SSA. And that could. stem in his opinion from a few different. things. Uh desire for adventure, pure. acceptance, uh loneliness or boredom or. curiosity. >> Um approval or affection from males. And.

a lot of this is centered on men, although it's certainly women have been. involved in this as well. >> Yeah, we'll get to that. >> Yeah. But a lot of them over a lot of. this over the years is making gay men. straight. >> Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah. >> It's But it's not exclusive to that. >> No, it's not. uh general rebellion, which is pretty funny, >> and then uh sexual molestation by. another male. >> And I think that is a very like I think. that the idea that that leads to being.

gay is very widespread in culture, well. beyond the Christian right or people who. believe in conversion therapy. The idea. that if you're sexually abused by a man. or somebody of your same sex, you become. gay. >> Yeah. >> Which is just wrong. But I think a lot. of people still believe that. I know. that's what I thought when I was a kid. >> Yeah, that's right. Uh I mean it's not. right. >> Well, no, it's [laughter] utterly wrong, but yeah. >> Uh and the whole basis of Nicolos's. theory, he takes back to a study from. 1992 called Demography of Sexual.

orientation in adolescence. And this was. an actual study from the Journal of. Pediatrics that looked at patterns of. sexual orientation in high school. students in Minnesota. And what they. found out was that younger teens in. Minnesota in this study uh were more. likely to express sexual confusion uh. about their orientation when they were. younger. >> And as they grew older, it they were. less confused about their sexual. identity and orientation, >> right? And that's a legit study, right?

And I think that probably anyone who's. ever been an early teenager and a late. teenager can be like, "Uh, that sounds. about right.". >> Exactly. you know, >> but the extrapolation that Nicolosi did. was what's the the problem is, >> right? So Nicoloi was saying like, yes, that shows that like you're you're. you're in a a dangerous place earlier on. and that if a couple of things happen in. a certain way, you can be veered off of. this natural path toward heterosexuality. into homosexuality,

>> right? And also more dangerously, that means we got to get them while. they're young, >> right? So um one of the other things. that he's he really based his practice. on was uh this family triad of a. doineering over attendant mother. >> a passive detached father and a. sensitive child. >> boogie nights. >> in kind of in um that was a good one in. that that um that triangle like you.

would like almost certainly have a gay. kid if somebody didn't intervene. So he. he decided like this was his career was. intervening in that kind of stuff. But. that in and of itself has never been. proven to um create gay kids like that. Like whether you believe in conversion. therapy or not, if you have a doineering. mother, an absent father, and you're. like a sensitive type who likes dolls. even doesn't mean you're going to turn. gay, >> right? >> This is the basis of that though is that.

yes, you will turn gay. And um still to. this day this idea is allowed to live. because science has never fully. satisfied the the question like are we. born gay? Do we develop being gay? And. it looks like it's on a pretty strong. track toward a genetic basis of. homosexuality, right? >> But it's still nothing's definitive. And. so people can say, well maybe we do. develop, you know, an adolescence, you. know, being gay or whatever because. science has not filled this void quite.

yet. Yeah. And the way Nicoloi will would. write about this stuff and describe it. is in a very sort of professional. innocuous type way where a casual reader. uh might say, "Well, this seems totally. valid and above board.". >> Yeah. A Newsweek reader. Yeah. Or an. Oprah viewer. >> That's right. Um this is uh this is one. of the things I think this is from one. of his books. Um and this is how he. describes the relationship to from. patient to therapist. Uh the client has. come to the therapist seeking assistance.

to reduce something distressing to him. and the uh RT psychotherapist agrees to. share his professional experience and. education to help the client meet his. own goal his own goal. Uh the therapist. enters into a collaborative relationship. agreeing to work with the client to. reduce his unwanted attractions and. explore his heterosexual potential which. again it seems very innocuous. Uh and. and there are plenty of cases where a. grown man of his or woman of their own. um valition goes and seeks this out,

>> right? >> But what they don't say is what happens. many times is a parent forces their. young child to do this. >> No, that's a big one. That's a big one. In this um that American Prospect. magazine, uh the author was like. >> in his early teens when he went to. Nicolos's therapy. Um, but he said. everybody else in the group is in their. like 40s or 50s. So, it was definitely. both. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But there's something here that's really. important because like you said, if you. just read this stuff, it does sound.

innocuous. It's all very much based on. things like cognitive behavioral. therapy, like stuff that works, which. means that this works in a weird twisted. way, which we'll talk about, but not in. the way it's ultimately meant to. It. works in a a bent way. >> Yeah. I mean, >> do you want me to explain now? [laughter] I feel like I should. >> I take issue with the word works at all. It there are situations where it might. prevent someone from acting on a. homosexual impulse. >> That's what I mean. >> Yeah. But that doesn't change the nature.

of their sexuality. >> No. No. Right. And ultimately preventing. someone or training someone to not act. on their sexuality is damaging in and of. itself and causes all sorts of other. problems. but maybe good enough for uh a. really religious family, >> right? >> You know. >> Yeah. Well, that's what I read is that. over time as the Christian right adopted. the idea of, you know, championing the. exgay movement, that part of that was. accepting gay people,

>> right, >> who refrain from gay sex, right? >> So, if you were like, I'm gay. I'm never. going to be straight. I tried, >> but I don't have sex with men. You would. be welcome in church. >> Yeah. So, what I was saying though is. with with Nicolos's thing, the there's. something fundamentally wrong with it. And that if somebody came to you and. said, "I'm tired of being white, >> right? >> Or black or Hispanic. >> or straight. >> I can't stand it.". >> Yeah. >> You wouldn't say, "Oh, well, let's. figure out how to make you not black or.

white or Hispanic or straight, right? >> Let's figure out how to change you.". They would say, any therapist worth. their salt would say, well, no, there's. a lot of great things about being white. or black or Hispanic or straight, and. let's focus on that so that you can own. your identity. >> The like conversion therapy does the. opposite. It says, "Yes, let's figure. out how to get the gay out of you.". >> Right. >> Let's change your identity because this. group of society has said that it's. unacceptable. >> That's right.

>> And that is an extraordinarily damaging. position to come from. And that is the. basis. Yes. >> of conversion therapy. >> Yeah. [clears throat] And as we'll see. later on, the AMA's official stance is. that it is, and we'll read the quote. later, that it is a damaging prospect, >> right? >> And and creates real harm. >> An American prospector [laughter]. magazine. >> So, this approach by Nicoloi. um has four steps to it. The first one. is interesting because it's the. disclosure of the therapist's personal,

professional, philosophical, and. religious views on homosexuality, which includes Nicoloi says uh the gay. affirmative therapist also discloses his. philosophical uh views to the client, but from a gay affirmative perspective. Does he just put that in there to like. cover his bases? >> No. It's true though. >> because you wouldn't send your your son. or daughter to a gay affirmative. therapist to to convert them.

>> into Right. You know, I think this is. what he's saying. You've been to therapy. before, right? >> Sure. >> Have you ever noticed that when you. first your first session, the therapist. tells you a lot about themselves and. what they think about mental health or. life or whatever? >> Yeah. And I'm always like, "Wait a. minute. What about my problems?". >> Yeah. I thought we were talking about. me. [laughter]. >> I'm getting charged for this. >> I don't care about your family. Um, right. Uh, that's what he's saying that. they do, but because this is about being. gay, that's what they're going to talk. about is their views or whatever.

>> Interesting. >> They're going to share their opinions of. it and that they think that there's. problems with it. >> You know, my line is at the therapist. when they do all that stuff, I'm like, great, that's really interesting. At the. end, I'm like, you want to start the. clock now? >> Right. Nice. Either that or I can. prorate. [laughter]. Uh number two of the four steps is. encouragement of the client's uh. inquiry. So basically asking the client. the questions, examining their feelings. um to try and discover like what lies.

beneath, >> right? >> Uh number three, resolution of past. trauma. Uh if it is in fact one of the. reasons they suspect uh this person has. has gone down the road to homosexuality. Mhm. >> And then um education regarding features. of homosexuality which includes. everything from what motivates you to do. this to you know that if you are gay. then this lifestyle ends in a very bad.

way for you. >> Right. That there's a lot of physical. harm, social harm, >> emotional harm. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So what's weird though is like I can't. Nicolosi is like a tough person to paint. with just one brush. Even though I. totally disagree with what he dedicate. dedicated his career to, he doesn't seem. at least from what I've read in. including that American Prospect article. from somebody who was a patient of his. for years, >> right? >> He doesn't seem to have been like any. sort of evil man or anything like that.

Um, I I don't know if he just thought. like this was a real thing and he was. really helping people or what, but for. example, there's this one quote from uh. from Gabriel Ariana who said that um he. had been like experimenting with um. sexual encounters with other men as a. teenager and he said that he'd been. meeting men off of the internet. >> and he told Nicolosi like he's like I. trusted the guy enough to share this in. therapy and he said that Nicolosi told. he said he told me to be careful meeting.

men off the internet, but that I. shouldn't dwell on it or feel guilty. He. said my sexual behavior was of secondary. importance. If I understood myself and. worked on my relationships with men, the. attractions would take care of. themselves. I just had to be patient, which is I mean, that's a pretty great. thing for a therapist to tell a patient, >> right? >> Don't dwell in it, you know, don't feel. guilty. Just, you know, accept it and. move on and learn from it or whatever. >> But then the second part, >> right, >> is where it goes downhill. >> Yes. Yeah. And and so the thing is. though with conversion therapy in most. cases Nicoloi is.

like he's almost a shining example in a. weird way whereas other people. associated with it are it's very easy to. paint them with just one brush. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> so we should talk a little bit about uh. the argument against a little bit more. about the argument against which. includes a little bit more history. Um, you know, we talked about the earliest. stages of conversion therapy in the late. 1800s, >> but uh it really kind of picked up steam. in the United States in the 1960s.

uh when the civil rights movement, you. know, when gay people started coming out. of the closet more, >> presenting themselves more in public, um, gay bars popping up, things like. that. Stonewall. >> Stonewall, of course. Uh, which, you. know, anytime something like that is. becoming a little more accepted in the. mainstream, there's going to be another. side that really roots down and digs in. And that's sort of how the modern gay. conversion therapy movement was born was. out of homosexuality becoming more.

accepted. >> Yeah. I read a really interesting. journal article um from 2007. by Robinson and Spivey. It was in gender. and society the journal and um they. basically. they they looked into the exgay movement. not necessarily the psych the psychology. community's basis of it but the later on. the adoption of it by the Christian. right. >> and they explained why the Christian. right would be interested in that. >> and they were interested in it and dug.

in like you said. >> because they saw homosexuality and. feminism in particular as signs of a. decadent society that would eventually. cause us to crumble and collapse. >> and that the the and this is according. to um Robinson and Spy I haven't. actually interviewed anyone on the. Christian right who believes this. >> right. >> but they are academics and this was a. peer-reviewed journal um that the that. masculinity. >> is the antidote to that. >> right.

>> it's the antidote to homosexuality it's. the antidote to feminism and that it was. up to each man to be a strong leader. among women and children and to be as. masculine as possible. That's how you. how you did that. >> Yeah. I mean, I I I went I heard sermons. every Sunday. Well, not every Sunday, but I heard sermons on many Sundays. where uh they were still saying, "Wives. submit to your husbands.". >> Yeah. >> Um straight out of the Bible. >> Um you know. >> Yeah. And and like most of the antidote.

is dads, you're being way too passive. You need to step up and be the leader of. your family. But also moms, you can help. by saying, "Oh, you have a question? Ask. your father. I defer to your father. Go. ask your father." And just Yeah. being. passive. >> Well, which goes back to the that triad. you mentioned earlier about the. doineering mother, the passive father. equals gay. That's basically the basis. of the whole thing from what I could. tell is that at least among the. Christian right that that.

if if the father is not the dominant and. and leading figure in the family that's. where the trouble comes from and that. can produce homosexual children. >> Interesting. Yes. [laughter]. So, uh, something we we failed to. mention as part of the AMA's, uh, change in 1972, or was that the APA? >> APA. >> APA um, was they said, and this is an. important distinction, is that. homosexuality they deemed a normal.

variation, >> not deviation, but a variation, right, >> in human sexual orientation. And like. other normal sexual orientations can't. be changed. Mh. >> Uh, in other words, you can't make a. straight person gay any more than you. can make a gay person straight, >> right? >> Is what that equals. >> And because of that, as we'll see later. on, that became the basis for this idea. that conversion therapy is um, in. essence a fraud, >> right? >> Because it purports to do something that. can't be done. >> That's right. Should we take another.

break? >> Oh, man. Really? They're coming hard and. fast. >> We can wait. >> Like men swinging sides [laughter] and. sweaty shirts on the field. >> Uh, yeah. Let's take another break and. we'll talk about what might happen in. conversion therapy [music] right after. this. Oh, the stuff we learned from Josh. and Chuck. [music]. Stuff you should know. [music]. Learning stuff is fun with Josh and.

[music]. >> All right, Chuck. I'm excited about this. part. You're excited about the horror show of. [laughter] conversion therapy. >> It's not all horror shows. Some of it is. just outright laughable. >> Yeah. So, uh, statistically about. >> also also, I'm sorry, everybody. I want. to say something, too. >> Okay. >> We typically try to be super objective. >> Uhhuh.

>> This one is very tough. >> We have science on our side, too. >> This was really hard for me to research. >> Yeah. >> Nothing is ever hard for me to research. This one was. It was like turning over a. log and finding it like maggots writhing. underneath. That was what researching. what this one was like. I just kept. putting it off. I would just keep. leaving it and just going and watching. like the office or something like that. Just anything but researching this. >> because it's super sad. >> It is. It's that children are taken at. their most vulnerable time in. adolescence when they don't know what's.

going on and they're told that they're. wrong and they're sinning and they're. dirty. That is that is a part of why it's sad. Another part to me of why it's sad is. that the idea that grown-ups would. direct this much thought and attention. and effort into. slamming their head up against a wall to. try to change someone else to a way they. think they should be. >> Right. that that I think is um that.

that's that's at least as sad to me as. the children being misdirected like this. because a kid can go on and grow up and. be like, "Geez, my family was super. messed up. I'm really glad I don't speak. to them anymore because I'm much happier. over here, >> right?". >> Um. >> well, that can happen in the ideal. circumstance. >> Sure. Or the ideal circumstance is that. the family's just like, "Hey, we're. [snorts] really screwed up. We're really. sorry, right? >> We love you no matter who you are.". >> Yeah. Uh but the idea that there's a. group a social movement dedicated to.

just eradicating another group of. people. >> Yeah. >> That I I find that very hard to swallow. >> Yeah. Agreed. So uh apparently. statistically about uh or close to. 700,000 people uh in the United States. have undergone conversion therapy. And. we should mention that uh it's a real. problem in places like Africa and Asia. and South America. >> Yeah. where you can still be in prison. for being gay. Yeah. Like Uganda is a. big um a big place for that. >> Conversion therapy is like on the rise.

in those places and other places, >> right? >> But we're talking about the United. States in this case, 700,000 people. Um. and like we said, sometimes it is in the. uh with a licensed therapist. Sometimes. it's uh done by a religious adviser uh. in a basement or at a church. >> Yeah. that you know what that reminded. me of is another thing we need to talk. about sometime is exorcisms like church. exorcisms. >> Oh, we've done exorcisms. >> We did like straight up Roman Catholic.

exorcism. Oh, >> okay. >> I'm talking like the kind that somebody. does in the basement of their house. Gotcha. >> Because they're supposedly an exorcist. or something like that. >> Sure. Backdoor exorcism. >> basically. Yeah. >> Black market. >> You'll see. You'll be like, "Oh, man. We. should be talking about this.". >> All right. Well, I agree already. I. trust you. >> Okay. So, uh, the AMA says that, uh, conversion therapy programs may utilize. harmful psychological, uh, techniques. Um, we were talking earlier about. aversion therapy, uh, and given.

chemicals. Uh, they can still be given, um, noxious stimulus. And I didn't see. exactly what that entailed or could. entail. Uh there was a guy named Robert. Gilra Heath who uh was the father of. implanting electrodes into the brain to. deliver shocks and one of the things he. directed that toward was curing gay. people. >> Mh. >> I don't think anyone in their basement. is implanting electrodes or whatever, right? >> But there are things like um uh giving.

people like nausea nausea inducing. medications is one, right? showing them. pictures that might nauseate them and. then figuring out how to associate that. with masturbating to thoughts of other. men or something like that. >> Yeah. I mean, we should talk about a few. of these specifically. I mean, all you. have to do is uh look up on a search. engine conversion therapy horror stories. and there are plenty of people out there. saying what happened to them. >> Yeah. Look up also conversion therapy. super happy fun stories and [laughter]. you're going to come back with almost. nothing.

>> Google zero results. Uh there was one. teenager who said that he was forced to. wear a backpack with 40 lbs of rocks uh. 18 hours a day to just signify the. physical burden of being gay. >> Right. >> Uh one person's family gave them a fake. funeral, closed casket funeral in front. of him where they said that he died of. AIDS and they said their final goodbyes. because he went down the sinful path. >> pretending he wasn't there like that he. was dead and in the casket. Yes. >> Talking about him in third person.

>> That's right. um. >> his family. >> One uh reported being told to strip. naked in front of a mirror uh and say. disparaging things about themselves. >> I just do that normally though. [laughter]. >> Well, I I did read one account where. they basically said the whole idea is to. break you down to nothing, right, >> in the worst way possible and then build. you back up again. >> in the image that they want. >> So, I get the impression that that is. one route, but that is not necessarily. what you're going to get at any place. you go for conversion therapy. There's.

other ones that say. >> that's the problem is we don't know cuz. so many people don't talk about it, >> right? Um there's some that that like. you would go to that say, "Okay, we're. not going to abuse you or anything like. that." But the basis of our beliefs in. this is that you you are gay because. either you had an absent father, >> a doineering mother, some combination of. the two or you always like wanted to be. like loved and you know popular among.

your male peers and you didn't get that. So now you are misdirecting this need, this unmet need toward having anonymous. gay sex on the dance floor with some. dude in Miami or whatever. >> Um, so we need to figure out how to meet. that need and have you hang out with. guys who will tell you how cool you are. and how popular you are. >> Yeah, like tailgating or something. >> kind of. [laughter] And while we're at. it, we're going to do that by by.

accenting the masculinity. We're going. to teach you how to be masculine so that. you can hang out with dudes in the real. world and they will think you're cool. >> So things like um we're going to teach. you how to change the oil in your car. >> We're going to teach you to sit without. crossing your legs. No joke. >> Um there was a a guy who. >> teach spread. >> Yes. >> On the subway. >> There's a guy who's kind of a prominent. thinker. Uh I think he was I saw him as. a sexologist, maybe a Christian. sexologist. Ghart Vanen Ardluig.

>> It's pretty great. I think I nailed it. >> He said that um homosexual men need to. unlearn avoidance of getting their hands. dirty, doing man manual work like. chopping wood, painting a house, using a. shovel. And that. >> I say no thanks to all three. I chop. wood. That's kind of fun. >> It is fun. And that not necessarily just. here's an axe, start chopping wood, you're going to just suddenly become. cured. But that that is part of it. >> Right. And in this thought, this tack. where they're not abusing you, they're.

not degrading you or anything like that. >> They're teaching you masculinity and. manliness. >> That the ultimate aim and goal of that. is to go get married and have a kid, >> right? >> Or kids, >> right? >> And that that is a a big part of. conversion therapy. It was for a very. long time was saying, "You might still. be gay or whatever, but you're not. really gay. You're now married and you. have a kid and that is what you're. dedicating yourself to. >> That's right. You're a wood chopping,

football throwing dude. >> with a pencil thin mustache. >> Oh, no, no, not that. So, in 1974, we. should talk about George Ruckers. He was. a psychologist who uh who tested um. whether or not this was an effective. treatment. And uh he had a four he this. wasn't his boy but this was his his. client was a foreign I guess client's a. weird way to put it. >> Sure. >> This child was forced to go to this. person at 4 and a half years old. This.

is a boy manifesting uh quote childhood. crossgender identity and they said this. is based on the clothes uh that this boy. wears. Um and now of course looking at. this it's it was probably a a. transgender child. >> Yeah. Or gender fluid. >> Yeah. I mean, it's hard to tell cuz this. was 1974 and the way they wrote about. it, it's hard to kind of piece it. together. >> Yeah. And it's also like just how much. of this behavior did this child exhibit? Like it makes it makes it seem like this. is all the kid did was act like a girl.

when he was a boy. What else was he. into? What else, you know, it's just. such a narrow picture of the subject, >> of course. So, in the end, uh, Reckers. um did something super damaging. He. trained the the boy's mother to be the. therapist. Like, here's what you need to. do. M so this kid can get 24/7 therapy. from you and basically uh punish. feminine behaviors, reinforce masculine. behaviors uh at all times. And they said. that, hey, this is working. Um because.

every time this boy gets punished for. doing something feminine, he stops and. like chops wood or throws the football. and gets a reward. So because he's 4 and. a half years old, he's doing the things. that their parents congratulate him for. and reward him for, >> right? And not doing the things that. he's getting punished for. And this. >> the punishment is what stood out to me. It's just so sad that the mother was. instructed to reject him, to basically. ignore him when he acted like a girl, but not ignore him like pretend it's not. going on, like let him know that she is.

giving him the cold shoulder and that. that's how he learned, >> right? >> Um that is just devastating. It's. heartbreaking. And what's heartbreaking. is this is used was was used as an. example like see this works. This 4 and. 1 half-year-old is now acting more. masculine and is not going to grow up to. be gay and uh this this child died by. suicide at the age of 30. >> Yeah. >> Like that's the end result of this road. That's where it ends And that's what I. meant earlier when I said like it does. kind of work because it follows.

psychological techniques that actually. work, but it works in like kind of a. bent way where yes, you can train. somebody, you can mold a four-year-old. to behave in a certain way by. conditioning them. It's possible. You. can get somebody to do just about. anything like that. >> Yeah. But the ramifications, the. results, the damage to the individual's. identity that will eventually come out. later are widespread and sweeping. >> Yeah. >> And that's the point. That's why you. shouldn't monkey around with somebody's.

identity using proven psychological. techniques. That's what's so evil about. the whole thing. >> Yeah. I mean, my daughter's four and a. half. I had a hard time even getting. through this stuff. >> And then also, if somebody come, this is. the other thing, too. If you're a. conversion therapy advocate or activist. or practitioner and that you say, "No, there are people out there who are. distressed, who are experiencing. psychological distress for being gay.". Yes, that's true. I guarantee that there. are people like that out there, but.

directing them toward working on not. being gay is not the answer. >> Yeah. Go to regular therapy. >> and learn to love that you're gay and go. find a church that accepts gay people. There's step two. >> Yeah. Cuz they're out there. Um let's. talk about the science of it because the. >> we are so contributing to a decadent. society. >> In 2009 there was a report from the APA. uh task force on appropriate therapeutic. responses to sexual orientation. Quite a. read [clears throat] and um this was the. actual final stance was sexual.

orientation change efforts can pose. critical health risks to lesbian, gay. and bisexual people. critical health. risks, not emotional, not I mean it's. part of emotional health, too. Sure. >> But critical health re uh health risks. >> And if you read the uh the review of. research and peer-reviewed literature. and uh the findings of what it can. result in, it reads like the worst. pharma ad disclaimer you've ever heard. [laughter].

uh depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, self-hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, uh. social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress, sexual dysfunction, loss of. faith, and suicidality. Uh and on that. last note, homosexual teens attempt. suicide more often than heterosexual. teens. And then among those homosexual. teens, uh you're twice as likely to try. that if your parents have rejected you. and three times as likely if you have. undergone conversion therapy.

>> Three times as likely. >> Yes. >> Compared to a heterosexual teen. >> That's right, >> man. Well, there you have it. That was just. the APA that a bunch of different. associations like legit medical and. psychological associations have come out. and condemned in no uncertain terms. conversion therapy, right? >> And all of their the these condemnations. basically follow two different texts. One, there is no science backing up the. idea that you can change somebody from.

homosexuality to heterosexuality, right? And number two, there is science backing up the idea. that trying to do that causes damage to. the individual. So don't do that. And as. a matter of fact, some some countries. and um states in the United States. >> uh have said, "We're this is outlawed. You can't do this anymore, everybody.". which is really touchy stuff because. again the Christian right kind of. adopted it and um and we don't we don't.

really infringe on religious beliefs but. that's how strong these condemnations. have been that they're saying we'll kind. of start to wade into that with this. one. >> Yeah. And we'll we'll talk about the. legalities of recent years in a sec. But. before that, between the 70s and the. APA's stance changing things a little. bit, then through the 80s and 90s where. conversion therapy was really sort of. hitting its peak, I think in America,

there were a lot of there were a few. high-profile cases that were exposed. that have helped sway things a little. bit back to sanity. >> So, first. >> in more recent years. >> Yeah. So before those high-profile. cases, and I mean right before them, I. think in 1998, a coalition of church. groups got together and sponsored uh an. ad campaign, something like a $600,000. ad campaign. Yeah. And things like the. New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, all this.

>> And these this ad featured John and an I. believe Anne Pulk, >> both of whom were formerly gay, but were. now exgay married. >> and married and had a kid. and said gay. conversion helps. And at the time there. wasn't a lot of ink on the other side. saying actually this is totally. discredited and it captured everybody's. attention and this is when the Christian. right came in and said we're going to. make this huge push in the culture war. and it really worked. That's when that. Newsweek story came out.

>> Yeah. They were on the cover of. Newsweek. >> He was the uh he was a leader of an. exgay organization called Exodus. International. John Pac was. >> right and it brought a lot of attention. Who's the poster boy? >> Yes. And and Exodus International in. particular became one of two main. umbrella organizations. They were kind. of like the the I saw it put um the. spiritual version of this uh the exgay. movement and then something called NAR, the National Association for Research.

and Therapy of Homosexuality was like. the scientific branch of the exgay. movement, >> right? And um so Exodus International. became a very well-known prominent. organization in the late 90s, but within. two three years, >> it would be it would basically be the. poster child for how conversion therapy. doesn't work, >> right? Because John Pulk is gay. [laughter]. In 2000, just two years later, he was uh.

photographed coming out of a a gay bar. in Washington DC. at the time. He. refuted that. He didn't refute that he. was there. He said what you always say. I didn't know it was a gay bar. >> I went in there asking for directions. >> No, I saw he wanted to use the bathroom. So, >> no. >> Either way, >> I just read the articles. >> And then they were like, uh, but you. were in there for a couple of hours. Like, did you get the directions and use. the bathroom? >> It clearly says Blue Oyster in neon. Have you not seen the Police Academy. movies? [laughter].

>> That was the name of it in the Police. Academy, right? The Blue Oyster Bar. Oh goodness. >> Uh, and John Pac, we we should say, now. lives life as a gay man and is a chef. He's been on like some celebrity chef. shows. >> Is that right? >> Uhhuh. >> Cool. >> And he is uh. >> living his best life. >> He's living his best life from from what. it looks like. >> So he's no longer married any longer to. an. >> Actually, that I don't know. >> because there are some Well, we'll we'll. keep going. I I don't think he is, but.

um there are a couple of people that. are. There was uh in 2003, Michael. Johnston uh he was another person touted. as an exgay success story, >> founder of National Coming Out of. Homosexuality Day. >> Uh he actually was uh he was found out. to be having sex with men that he met. online and uh infected them with HIV. >> Jeez. >> Very big deal. And then there's Ted. Haggard, of course, in 2006. >> I remember this. Yeah, he was a preacher.

um and president of the National. Association of Evangelicals. >> or was at the time I guess very much an. anti-gay leader in in the uh religious. circles and this one sort of unfolded. little by little like. hey [clears throat]. this guy came out and said this guy had. a relationship with me for like three. years. We did crystal meth together. >> And then Haggard came out and said, >> "So cliche.". >> You know what? I I have to admit I. sinned. I bought crystal meth, but I. didn't use it. I threw it in the trash.

>> I was just. >> because I wouldn't succumb to the sin. >> Did Is that what he said? >> Yeah. He says he did buy crystal meth. >> and cuz I assume that was proof. [laughter]. >> Sure. >> And he said that he didn't use it at. all. He threw it in the trash before he. used it where the other guy was like, "No, we did tons of meth and had gay sex. a lot.". >> Right. He's like, "Oh, I know what he's. talking about. on like day four of us. staying up, he like freaked out and. threw it in the trash, but then he went. back and got it. >> Uh, >> and the proof was that he paid for it by. check. >> Maybe.

>> No. >> No, probably not. I don't think meth. dealers take checks anymore, do they? >> I think so. >> Uh, and then that was uh he was outed by. a uh having a relationship with an. underage boy, a sexual relationship. >> This was Ted Haggard again. >> Yeah. and and the boy uh sued and it was. settled uh by the church with a a dollar. figure. I think it was like 180 grand. And then finally in 2011, Ted Haggard. comes out and is like, "All right, so I. did have a relationship with a boy, but. we never touched each other. I just. masturbated in front of him.

>> I threw him in the trash.". >> And in 2011, he said, "You know what? Uh. I'm bisexual of I'm going to admit it. I. am bisexual, but I am going to choose to. live my life as a faithful heterosexual. husband to my wife. >> I wonder if after he admitted that um. and came out as bisexual, what that felt. like, if he felt like a a weight was. lifted or if the anxiety associated with. it was just so much or you know what his.

wife knew or didn't know or thought. about it. I'd be very curious to know. what that, you know, what life has been. like for him after that. >> I mean, he's a preacher again. >> cuz I mean, more power to him if he's. like, I'm a Christian and I'm just not. going to have gay sex. That that's as. much a personal choice as having gay. sex, you know? I mean, the whole. underage boy thing, that's a huge. problem that I think, >> yeah, I'm hoping was addressed. But I. wonder what his what his life is like. now. >> Well, I mean, he's like I said, he's.

preaching again. I think in Colorado. >> He's probably a stuff you should know. listener haggarded right in. >> Yeah, we'd like to hear from you, sir. Uh, you want to talk about the law. [sighs]. >> because right now. >> Oh, wait. There was one more, Chuck. There's a big one. >> Who? Alan Chambers. >> Yes. So, John Pulk, when he was outed. cruising the Blue Oyster in DC back in. 2000, he was running Exodus. International. >> Yes. >> Uh, he was replaced a couple years later. by Allan Chambers. And about a decade after Chambers took.

over Exodus International, he said, "I'm. gay. I've been gay. Conversion therapy. doesn't work. We're shutting down Exodus. International.". >> Yeah. And and I apologize to the LGBTQ. community. >> Yes. So within about a decade or so of. the Christian right adopting the exgay. and conversion therapy pillar post as. part of the platform for their culture. war. Um the biggest organization one of. two biggest organizations dedicated to.

conversion therapy said. >> it doesn't work. We're sorry gay people. for all the damage we've done. >> Yeah. >> That's a pretty big turn of events. >> It is. >> So yes. >> Yet it still continues. >> So that led to Yeah. So that led to a. bunch of laws that trying to keep it. from continuing. >> Yeah. And the laws are basically usually. around minors saying you cannot force a. minor to do something like this, right? >> Not, hey, the whole thing is outlawed. If you're an adult and you want to go do. this, then that's up to you. Uh, as of.

2019, this year, 18 states in Washington. DC and Puerto Rico have similar bans. enacted. Um, and also it's important to. point out that those bands are about the. legitimate. scientific community. Like you will have. your license revoked. Doesn't say. anything about uh a preacher that you go. to or a youth counselor or any, you. know, sort of non-licensed church there. >> Right. It's only scientists or licensed.

counselors or psychologists or. psychiatrists or doctors, I'm sure, who. can lose their license if they practice. it. That's right. But yeah, that's. that's because there's religious. freedom. It's um I guess you can still. do that to minors though if if it's a. religious group doing it. >> That is what I'm not sure about. >> So for um. >> Well, it depends on the state. >> So there was a a group or there was a a. counseling um organization called Jonah.

And Jonah. >> was this Goldberg and Burke. >> Yes. They ran Jonah, which stood for I. can't find it anywhere. >> I got it here. Jews offering a new. alternative for healing. >> Okay. Um, they were not only found. practicing in New Jersey, um, conversion. therapy. So, they both lost their. licenses, they were also sued in a civil. suit by former patients for fraud and. lost. >> It's interesting when you think about. it, like, wait a minute, if this is not. possible and you're charging people for.

it, that's fraud. So they they had like. a $3.5 million settlement levied against. them, but and lost their licenses, but. then they just set up shop under another. name apparently the same year. Yeah. >> Of the the verdict and the civil suit. But for the most part, if you're a state. and you pass a law banning conversion. therapy to minors among medical. practitioners or counselors, >> um the courts are going to uphold that. law. >> Yeah, it's been upheld in California and. New Jersey. Um most of the challenges.

are on the grounds of free speech. >> Yeah. >> Um and the New Jersey uh when they. upheld the New Jersey or maybe it was. Maryland, the judge said uh we're not. infringing on your free speech. You can. say whatever you want, >> but you can't practice this therapy, right? That's different than free. speech. You can believe what you want. and say what you want, >> but you can't do this as part of your, you know, licensed therapy. It's the. same thing as like if you um if you. carry out quack.

uh cancer treatments, >> right, >> that is harmful, like you're poisoning. your patients or whatever, >> and like they become um they lose the. the use of their arms and legs because. of a treatment that you gave them for. cancer that the American Medical. Association has specifically said is. damaging and harmful. you're totally. going to get held accountable for that. You're lucky to just lose your license. in that case. This is the exact same. principle.

>> Yeah, for sure. >> So, um, in because it deals mostly with. minors or exclusively with minors, the. courts have upheld it. >> But New York City actually is widely. considered to have overstepped its. bounds and actually missteped in this. kind of culture war about conversion. therapy in banning the practice among. minors and adults. Right. >> And that got New York City sued. >> And New York City was like, "Well, the. Supreme Court's actually gotten pretty. >> conservative lately. I don't know if we.

should test this." And they repealed the. ban. >> Yeah. As a as a strategy, >> right, to keep it from getting tested in. the Supreme Court where the Supreme. Court could say, "No, all laws against. conversion therapy are unconstitutional. You can't outlaw it or ban it in any. form.". >> Yeah. And I think the Supreme Court. already refused to hear one case. >> which actually upheld the state's outlaw. of. >> right. >> conversion therapy. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Very interesting. There's a movie I. haven't seen yet called The Miseducation. of Cameron Post. It's a 2018 film from.

the 2012 novel by Emily Danforth. Haven't seen it yet, but it's about a. girl. >> who underos conversion therapy. And it's. uh Khloe Grace Mortz Moritz. I you know. her. >> I do. I can't put the face with the. name, but I know both. >> Yeah, you've seen her for sure. >> Sure. Uh if you want to know more about. arrested development, uh conversion. therapy, all that stuff, you can Well, I. guess start researching online. See what.

you think. Uh and since I said see what. you think, it's time for listener mail. >> Uh I'm going to call this complaint. pedantic complaint. >> Okay. >> A right to complain. Josh, the episode. on historic districts, you kept. referring to them repeatedly with the. indefinite article an rather than a and. historic district. >> I said and. >> that's what he says. >> That sounds unusual. I don't usually do. that. >> Really? >> I guess I was [music] just being. unconsciously correct. >> So, is that correct?

>> Yeah. >> So, what's the rule? >> Cuz I don't even know it. >> Huh? >> What I just said. [laughter]. >> That's the rule. >> That's the rule. >> What I say. >> Mhm. >> Okay. [gasps] Uh, I. >> I try not to exercise it too much. >> Okay, good. >> Only when I'm right. >> Uh, Joe says this. I realize this. infuriating practice has become popular. in recent years in the US. I feel. passionately that it must be. discontinued, especially primarily by. those voices or attended by large. audiences like you. You are no doubt. aware of the letter H is a consonant. necessitate necess necessitating gez.

>> nice. >> the use of the indefinite article a. rather than an citation all grammar. [music] books ever. I should limit the. scope of my gripe with an important. caveat. Cocknney. They should probably. continue to say and because they. pronounce it historic. >> This guy doesn't even know that the. rhyming slang episode is coming out. [laughter] How weird. >> But guys, that's not really why I write. today. I love the show. I wanted to tell. you uh I wanted to wait for a halfway. plausible pretense to make the email a. [music] little more fun, which I hope. this has been. Any chance on an episode. of How Petry Works? Keep up the good.

work, Joe. >> He's poking fun. >> Turns out he's good peeps after all. >> Yes. Is the N before an H? Is that a. thing? >> I don't know that. Is it? >> Yeah. I think um I don't know if it's. proper or not, but I understand where it. comes from because the vowel. that comes right after the H is usually. so heavily pronounced in relation to how. [music] it's pronounced when it comes. after other consonants like anistoric. >> An historic district sounds okay.

>> An honor. An honor. An honor. A honor. Which one sounds better? Like I was. bestowed an honor. >> Yeah. Now say it the other way. >> But you wouldn't say dog vomit. >> In high school I had an history teacher. That [music] was great. >> You know it's really weird. >> Did Joe tell you to say that? >> No. I just thought of it cuz And. historic. >> I had a history teacher. I had a. historic Yeah, both work. How about. this? We're both right. Joe, try not to focus on such [music] stupid. stuff. I'm cur [laughter].

I'm curious if there I really want to. know the rule now because I know it's a. consonant but if people are saying it. [music] these days is that just some. sort of a fighting the system. >> that's the descriptivist way the p. prescriptivist is like no it's this way. right. >> Joe's the prescriptivist here we're. descriptivists. >> all right. >> I think we've proven ourselves that. >> maybe we should launch a side podcast. called [music] the descriptivists. >> oh that's a good one. >> almost has like a Civil War era folk. band feel to do it. >> We'd have to curly cues though. That's.

fine. We're not going to do that. >> We could get fake ones that we just took. on and off for publicity for us. >> That's right. Scout mob, >> right? [laughter]. Uh if you uh want to get in touch with. us like Joe did, have a little quibble, a little gripe or praise or whatever, you can go on to stuff you should. know.com and check us out. Our [music]. social links are all up there. You can. also send us an email to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. [music] For more podcasts,

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