Selects: How Charles Darwin Worked | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Hi everyone, Chuck here on a Saturday to. introduce this week's select episode, a. curated best of. And this is all about. old Chucky Darwin. It's called how Charles Darwin worked. It's a great person. Had a lot of great ideas. And. uh he was pretty groundbreaking stuff. So, I hope you guys enjoy listening to. this one either for the first time. or all over again. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

>> [music]. >> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant. So, this is Stuff You Should Know. That's right. [music] And lest I forget, Jerry's over there. She's over there. You know, we went like. 5 years I went 5 years of this podcast. with just mentioning us. Once in a while. mentioning Jerry. But I mean like I can't imagine the. podcast without Jerry, too. Now,

after 5 years finally I'm like, "Yeah, I. guess she [laughter] should stay on.". She's earned her place. Yeah. Plus she keeps quiet. That's right. >> [laughter]. >> Uh how are you doing? I'm great. How are. you? I'm good. Yeah? I'm like low-key, calm. I'm fine. That's good. I'm a little. smelly, which we've talked about off the. air, but. >> keep talking about it, which makes the. smell worse. What is it What is it about. someone's own. special sweet tang of a scent that. they're drawn to? Like you're drawn to your own tang?

Yeah, man. Everyone I think like. secretly smells their own shoe and their. own armpits when they get a little ripe. Maybe we all deep down want to mate with. ourselves. Maybe so. That's not true cuz. I'm disgusted with myself. Yeah, but I. see you looking at your armpit, eyeing. it like that. I know what you want to. do, that thing. Yeah. You I've slipped. out twice today just to smell of them. >> [laughter]. >> There's a little on your nose. It's. gross. Uh so, Chuck, you're doing good, I'm doing good. We'll just assume. Jerry's doing good. Um and we're all.

doing good because we're fairly fit. And you know why we're fit? Because. we're alive and we are evolving as we. speak. Yeah. We are part of this huge, long, natural procession of change. forced by scarcity, competition, ravages. of nature. >> Yeah. And we as humans have climbed to. the top of the food pyramid of the. evolutionary chain and said, "We own. this planet." And that's why we're doing. good today. >> Yeah.

It's one of my most favorite notions. Uh evolution? Yeah, natural selection. I. think it's like one of the most. beautiful things. that we've been able to figure out. >> Yeah, evolution gets all the spotlight. I'm a big natural selection fan myself, too. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. So, I. Divergence? That's stuff turns me on. >> [laughter]. >> That and your smell. Intellectually. Uh. so, let's let's talk about this. You. can't have evolution without natural. selection. Again, even though evolution.

gets all the spotlight. >> Yeah. At the very least, there's no evolution. on Earth without natural selection. Right. And. the idea of natural selection, of. evolution in general, the idea that God. didn't create everything exactly the way. we see it now, um is a fairly recent notion despite how. tremendously widespread it is. You know, uh Bill Nye, the science guy. Yeah, you're talking about his debate? Yeah, he got in a debate with uh Ken.

Ham. Just just totally off the cuff, not. planned at all. They just both happened. to be in the same auditorium. I watched. the whole thing. Did you? The whole 2. hours? >> Yeah, man. I couldn't pull myself away. from it. >> So, I'm guessing that you suspect Bill. Nye won the debate. Well, I mean, are there winners and losers? >> So, don't be shy, there are. Okay. Um. [laughter]. there's there's a British uh. religious website that pulled its um. its. guests. >> Yeah. Cuz you know, people who go to.

websites are called guests. >> [laughter]. >> But uh In in England they are. >> and said who won. >> Uh-huh. And um I think 92%. said Bill Nye won. And the reason why is because in the. comments section it was revealed Yeah. that most of these people said, "Yeah, we believe in God, but evolution is. still real and to deny evolution. outright. >> Yeah. is pretty silly." I think when you. say things like dragons, you might lose. people. Did he say dragons? I didn't see.

it. Yeah. He mentioned dragons? Well, I. mean that's some people and like you. said, religion and science coexist for a. lot of religious folk. Oh, yeah. But um. there are some that are very literal and. strict and say that, you know, how do. you explain dinosaurs? Well, they may. have been dragons. Got you. And I don't that. that doesn't explain anything though. >> Well, I think the dragons were in the. Bible. Oh, yeah? If I if I'm getting this wrong, I'm. going to really get killed. We should. pause here for a second. >> Yeah. Um.

like the point of this episode is not to. stomp on anybody's beliefs. No. I think. science can be just as dogmatic as. religion. Sure. Um so like that's not. what we're doing. No. Like if you. believe in creationism, to each his own. Like we're not going to. pound. our beliefs into you or you know, vice. versa. >> I've never understood that. Like who. cares? Just believe what you want. >> either way. >> Yeah. You know? It's like convert to my. way of thinking. >> Yeah. Or else you are just so wrong it's. mind-boggling, you know?

>> Right. Um that's not the point of this. No. I. think we should just see it away with. that cuz this is not what we're like. there's some people who don't always. listen maybe this is their first. episode. Welcome. Uh. >> [laughter]. >> we are not those kind of guys. No, and. specifically with this episode, it's on. Charles Darwin the man Right. >> of what made him who he was, not and. we'll tackle are we committing to go. ahead and doing natural selection? >> we shall. >> To pair with this? >> As a matter of fact, we'll have this one. come out on a Tuesday, we'll do natural. selection on a Thursday. Look at that.

All right, I agree. Let's do it. Let there be light. But. uh Darwin was a fascinating dude though. So he deserves his own show. >> yeah, because you can't really overstate. the idea that he was, as Robert Lamb. puts it in this fine article, >> Mhm. I have to say one of his best. Agreed. Um. that Charles Darwin was the fulcrum by. which or on which the entire sea change. from a religious world view to a. scientific world view took place. It was.

on this man's shoulders. Yeah. >> Even though, oddly enough, he wasn't the. only person to come up with natural. selection. No, and we'll get to that. He. wasn't the first or the last. uh. but it turns out he was the most. thorough in his uh. research. >> Right, and had the most social breeding. Yeah. And inbreeding. Yeah. Man, this is. the ultimate tease. It is. So let's get. started, Chuck. Let's talk about Darwin. He um. didn't He wasn't born with a Bunsen. burner and a flask in his hand.

No, he was not. Uh he was born, if. anything, with uh. a stethoscope in his hand because his. father, Dr. Robert Waring Darwin, Mhm. um had designs on little Chuck being a. doctor like him. Right. Cuz he was, you. know, they had some dough. They He was. an English gentleman. They weren't poor by any means. >> No, apparently his grandfather amassed a. vast fortune in China, and not the. country, but the porcelain. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Interesting.

So it'd be incorrect to say he had a. Chinese fortune. He had a China fortune. >> Okay. Uh but little Chuck was not into. anatomy. He was definitely not into. surgery on humans. Mhm. It freaked him. out. I think he was a little queasy as a. person. He was prone to fainting, it. seems like. >> Yeah, but he was. he was way into the natural sciences and. was just fine with dissecting a frog. Yeah. You know. He was cool with. biology. As long as you weren't human, he'd cut you. That's right. So, he was sent to several.

schools. Um. First, when he was going to be a doctor. to the Anglican Shrewsbury School, then. to Edinburgh University. And finally, his dad was like, all right, you don't. want to be a doctor, so the only other. option for you is to be. a man of religion. Yeah, parson in the. country. >> Yeah, so I'm going to send you to Christ. College in Cambridge. Which is I mean, if you're going to go be a country. parson, you could do a lot worse. Agreed. You know, the fighting padres. Is that what they are? [laughter]. Go padres.

Um. So, he was very well educated and had. been exposed to all kinds of science, so. he was he was a very smart guy from. early on. Um. and way into natural science, like I. said, but. not into the religion thing as much. He. was. agnostic from a pretty early age. Right. And he seemed like he was going to. follow the path that his father was. laying out for him. I I guess his father. >> anyway. He was very domineering. And. Charles Darwin was a pretty great.

thinker, pretty all around good guy, but. he also was a bit of a pantywaist, it. seems like. You know, [laughter]. he was like really, really affected by. stress. Yeah. So, he had a lot of. psychosomatic. symptoms from stress. Yeah. Pretty much. throughout his whole life. Despite that. though, he. took a very brave course in life. And it. started when he was 21. And he was on. his way to becoming that country parson. that his father had decided he would be.

And he got an invitation to go on a tour. of the islands off South America. from a guy named Robert FitzRoy, who was. 26 years old. He was an aristocrat. And, uh, he liked Darwin. He said, "Hey, you're good at conversations. Yeah. When. I get bored, I suffer bouts of. depression. >> Yeah. I'm about to go on this boat. called the HMS Beagle for God knows how. long. >> Yeah. So, why don't you come along and, uh, we can chat, and I won't get. depressed." And Darwin said, "You know. what?

Let's do this." That's right. Which is a. That's a pretty bold move. Yeah, he's He. was. for someone who was a Would you say a. pantywaist? Yeah, pantywaist. >> It's sort of surprising that he was up. for that kind of adventure. Yes. A milk toast. You could also call him a. milk toast, maybe. We'll call him that. All right. Uh, so, this was in 1831. He. boarded the HMS Beagle, which I for some. reason just cracks me up. You know, our. buddy Joe from Forward Thinking just. adopted a dog. It's part beagle, and his.

name's Darwin. Huh. Because of that. association. I would imagine. >> Yeah. That would have been. >> And Joe said he looks like Darwin. head-on. Like Charles Darwin. >> bushy eyebrows. [laughter] That's funny. Um, all right. So, he boarded the HMS. Beagle. Uh, what did you say how old was. he? 21? >> Yeah. And they took a 5-year voyage around. South America. Um, the purpose for. FitzRoy was to. chart the, uh, waters of South America, the coastlines, and that kind of thing. But Chuck was like, "I'm into natural. stuff, and.

species that I don't know. So, what. better. thing to do than spend like most of my. time not on the boat, but on land, just. researching stuff.". >> I'm sure he got pretty good at rowing. Oh, yeah. >> From the ship to shore. >> Back and forth. >> Yeah. He was basically, uh, Paul. Bettany's character in Master and. Commander. Well, which is ironic, cuz Paul Bettany. played Charles Darwin. Did he, really? In, uh, that movie Creation. Oh, yeah. [snorts] I never saw that, but. I know what you're talking about. >> That's funny. You had no idea, huh? No. You stepped right into that one. I.

wonder if he recognized that. I don't know. It's a good movie. That uh. Creation, you should check it out. It's. um. details a lot of the struggles of his. life that we're going to go over here. and mainly is about his. uh. anxieties of what he was doing in his. relationship to his Christian wife. Oh, yeah. I'll bet that was kind of a. sore spot. Big time. We'll get to that. though in a second. So, okay. So, they head off to South. America. Yes. They're uh he's spending. 2/3 of the voyage of this 5-year voyage. he spends on land.

Uh one of the most famous places he. visited was the Galapagos, which are. still around. Yeah, and that apparently. was really overstated. He was only uh. What is still around? Is that a joke? The Galapagos, they're still around. Oh, okay. I I I thought I was missing on something. cuz you looked at me like you're missing. a joke. >> No, that's this look. >> Oh, okay. Um What was that one as you you smell? Yeah. That was my eyes are watering. So, the Galapagos apparently was a. little overstated its significance-wise.

Um he was only there for about 5 weeks. out of the 5 years. And historians think. it's. been overstated because it was so exotic. and people wanted to point to some like. kind of fantastical. birthplace of all these ideas. >> Yeah. Well, I mean it it it. stuck. Yeah, I mean for sure. And he, you know, collected all kinds of. different specimens from the Galapagos, but it wasn't as big a deal Have you. ever seen the size of the turtles there. or the tortoises? >> They're really huge. Dude, they're like. the size of VW Beetles. Wow. They're.

enormous. Crazy. And apparently they like they'll. hang out with you. Well, what else are they going to do? Run away? Uh slowly. >> Okay. Yeah, they have no choice. They have agency. They could be like, "I. don't want to be here around you. I'm. going to go this way." They just It. wouldn't work very well. Or very. quickly. >> Yeah. Okay. So, where are we, man? We. are I was just pooh-poohing the. Galapagos. Oh, yeah. Um. But what he did while he was gone was he. did a lot of great work and made a real.

name for himself and kind of came back a. well-known scient- scientist. >> the whole time he's making all these. findings, he's finding new species of. animals that like Europeans didn't even. know existed. Like entire types of. animals. Um he's sending back specimens, which means he killed a lot of animals. while he was on these islands. >> Yeah. Mailed them back to Europe, mailed. back some of his findings. He's. basically writing papers as he's doing. this this journey. So, back in the jolly.

old England, there um. basically he becomes a celebrity. Yeah, and he was you know. >> Like before he even returned. Yeah, he. was looking at he had the idea of. natural selection, but it was like we. said he it was already out there. It was. known as the mystery of mysteries. uh or transmutation and he called his. his research at first to transmutation. notebooks. So, >> Is that right? >> Yeah, he wasn't you know, [clears throat] he's researching stuff. that he had heard about. It was a. working title. It was what was a working. title actually.

Um what would later become on the origin. of the species of course. Yeah, and uh. he and another guy we'll talk about in a. little bit were also um inspired both. were inspired by Thomas Malthus, who. we've talked about. >> Yeah. who came up with the idea of. carrying capacity. >> Yeah. and basically introduced the idea. that scarcity and competition forces. adaptation and change. And then uh. Darwin and the guy um. Alfred Wallace Russell. or Alfred Russell Wallace um.

both read this and said, "Well, wait a. minute. I wonder if that adaptation and. change that's forced by scarcity is what. creates the change in species that we're. seeing here." Yeah, that was definitely. um the book was called Essay on. Principle of Population. and that was like a super game changer. cuz it really gave him like the the. notion that by studying our any species. death, you can kind of study the its. life. Yeah, and it wasn't it wasn't just. biology that it gave rise to. It gave.

rise to um. economics largely. Yeah. Uh a lot of. anthropology, a lot of ecology. Like it. was like you say, a game changer. Thomas Malthus. Go back [snorts] and listen to our. population podcast. >> Is that where he appears? I think he appears a few times, but that. was a good one. Yeah. It's an oldie, but. a goodie. Um so like we said, he came back sort of. a celebrity of sorts. And he came back with a lot of. information.

uh and settled in. at the Down House in Kent. And this place was. he spent the next 40 years there. studying his property, essentially. Mhm. Like he didn't need to go anywhere. He. had. plenty of nature there. Apparently, there were 40 different species per. square meter. on his property. Uh he had 10 kids, and he used them as. sort of a. a little laboratory experiment because. three of them died, and he was. fascinated with why.

things and people survive and some. don't. >> Mhm. So it was all sort of part of his. uh. it was just everything was part of his. laboratory, essentially. He had people. sending him samples from all over the. world, and there are some theories that. if the postal service hadn't have been. so good, he may have never been able to. write. uh Origin of the Species. Because he relied on people sending him. stuff in due time. >> Oh, yeah. And also, he was uh really big. on corresponding, which kind of helped.

develop his um. his ideas, flesh them out even further. Was he was huge on correspondence. Yeah, he had a um area on his property called. the Sandwalk that he had built that was. basically just a a loop path. through the woods, and he would just. spend. like countless hours just walking this. path and thinking and looking at. everything. Everything. Right. And especially. >> his eye. >> One of his favorite um subjects was. earthworms. Remember our earthworm.

podcast? >> There was a quote from him in there. um. where he said. "It may be doubted whether there are. many other animals which have played so. important a part in the history of the. world as these lowly organized. creatures." So, he was down with. earthworms. Down with earthworms. >> And orchids very famously, too. Yeah, he. was he was active. He wasn't just. looking at things. He raised orchids. He. was a bee keeper. He raised pigeons. And. like it was all just in the name of. study. Right. One of the things though.

we um he married his uh first cousin, his wife. Yeah. Um and at the time. they didn't really know much about the. troubles with inbreeding. And he was one of the people who. discovered the troubles with inbreeding. And it apparently had a really big. effect on him. Like he. felt kind of guilty and weird and. wondered if maybe his kids' early deaths. had to do with that. >> Yeah. Um. which has to be kind of startling. If. you're the guy who discovers the.

problems with inbreeding and you've. inbred. Yeah. You know? >> Yeah. It's got to be a little jarring. Sure. Uh Emma Wedgwood was his wife's uh. maiden name and. one thing that happened when he married. her was he got uh more money because she. was also in the family fortune. >> Right. So, they were set up pretty. nicely. Uh and like I said, she was Christian. and. she was amazing though. Like the. creation movie really like it's a great. love story despite the fact that they. had he was agnostic and she was.

Christian. She spent her life caring for. him because he was a very sickly man. >> Yeah. Um may have had some sort of viral. disease his entire life. >> Is that right? Maybe. That he picked up. in South America. We don't know. >> he wasn't a penny waist. No, he was a. penny waist on top of that. >> Okay. >> [laughter]. >> He was. just fraught with anxiety uh and she. cared for him and all the kids and her. life's worry was, are we going to spend. eternity together. in the afterlife? That was her big. concern. Yeah. Which Cuz he didn't buy.

that stuff. No, he and he was, you know, religious-ish when he was younger. But. as he grew older and the more. >> No, the more he exposed himself to these. ideas of evolution and natural. selection, the less religious, the less. he bought into it. Um and it's funny. that that divide first occurred in him. And then it just kind of grew out from. him to. create this divide throughout the world. >> Yeah. He was the epicenter of that. divide. It first if the that crack in.

the world first. appeared in him. Yeah. Isn't that. interesting? >> Yeah, for sure. Um. >> He's the one to blame. Pretty much. Or he was a patient zero, one of the two. Um So he he comes back. to Down House. He gets married, settles. down, doubles his fortune by marrying. Emma. Um. and. and is experimenting with orchids, earthworms, bees, his kids, all of this. stuff. Um and he's also at the same time.

writing, he's expanding that notebook. into what he's calling natural. selection, another working title. Yeah. And um. he is taking his sweet time with it. One. of the reasons he's taking his sweet. time with this is one, he is being very. diligent. He's making sure he's crossing. all of his tees, dotting his eyes, making sure he's not looking at it. wrong. >> Yeah. Making sure he's backing up. everything. Yeah. And the second. connected reason to that first one is. that he is really not looking forward to.

the um storm Yeah. that this is going to. create when he unleashes it on the. public. He was well aware of it from the. beginning because there's a couple of. things that are inherent in the theory. of natural selection. I'm going to add a third reason, my. friend. >> Oh, okay. If you're studying natural. selection, evolution takes a long time. Well, yeah. You can't study something. for a week and detect changes and and. like you said, he was thorough because. he lived his life. uh.

basically in anxiety of not being. accepted by these peers. Right. And like. these are people, these are friends of. his. So, his procrastination was. definitely fear-driven by his peers and. by society at large. And by the fact. that it just takes a long time to study. something like this. >> Right. Right. Like for instance, he left. a area of his lawn unmowed for 20 years. just to study what would happen. And out of like. >> Yeah, that sounds like an excuse. >> [laughter]. >> Exactly. He's like, "Yeah, I'm studying. over there.". Uh but out of like the 20 different.

species he studied, 11 survived and nine. died away. So, boom, natural selection. right there just in a portion of his. lawn. Right. Okay. But it took 20 years. is the point. >> Okay, so time, fear of his peers, fear. of the public, and he had good reason to. fear um or be anxious because uh. the world was a much different place. than it is now. And he was well aware. that what he was about to unleash on. society. >> Yeah. was going to create some big. changes and some big problems. And uh.

we'll get into that right after this. message. >> [music]. [music]. [music]. [music]. >> So, Chuck, um we're talking about.

Darwin. He's at his house, Down House. Yeah. Um he's working on his manuscript. He's kind of procrastinating a little. bit and because it takes time to um but. he knows that he's about to unleash this. complete change in paradigm. A poop. storm. onto the world, exactly. You. know, and um. it's because. the the world was a much different place. than it is today. Because Darwin hadn't talked about. natural selection yet. Yeah, I mean.

religion. religious biology was. biology. Right. >> call it religious biology. That was just. biology. Yeah. So he was the first one. to secularize it. and make it just about the science. Um Yeah, cuz before scientists thought. like, well, God created this and that is. our starting point. Like everything. else, every other scientific explanation. we have has to trace back to creation. >> Yeah. Which is kind of it can make. science a little easier. Um.

but at the very at the same time. it leaves you open to. a huge problem when somebody comes along. and can fill in all these other gaps. >> Right. through a completely different. explanation that doesn't use creationism. and that's what Darwin was doing with. natural selection. Yeah. Uh I'm going to. go ahead and add a fourth thing. Man, they just [laughter] keep on coming. Uh. there were two texts that were vital and. we talked about one of them, the Malthus. uh Principle of Population. In 1844,

there was a book written called The. Vestiges of the Natural History of. Creation. It was published anonymously for 40. years. No one knew who wrote it cuz no. one wanted to. put their name on it. Like that's how. radical it was. And it was slammed. Like it was hugely popular. It was like. a phenomenon. Like everybody read it. and everybody slammed it. And it came. out later. It was a guy named Robert. Chambers. He was a Scottish journalist. but. what Darwin it scared the crap out of.

Darwin basically. >> Darwin was like, "Mother." Yeah, cuz a. lot it was. Mama. It was a lot of the same uh same. ideas as he had, so what it did was it. caused him to. basically rewrite. his. voluminous work and pare it down and. armor it with sturdier armor over the. next 13 months. Smart. Very smart. >> you could say for him that that was a. stroke of luck that that was published. and he read it and saw what happened. >> Dude, total stroke of luck. He might. have been laughed out of existence Yeah.

if he had have gotten there first. So, he he goes back, redoubles his efforts, strengthens his argument. >> Yeah. Um and again, he's combating not. just the I. the religious ideals of the time, but. the religious ideals of science. >> Yeah. Like most scientists at the time. were deists, and deists believed that. God created the universe. Basically like. a clockmaker makes a clock, Mhm. wound. it up and walked away. Like, "See you. later. Good luck with everything." And. then anything that happened as a result.

after that was the result of the. machinations of this clock. >> Yeah. And there was a a theory that was fairly. well. accepted called uh. catastrophism. Yes. And that basically sought to. account fossils. Cuz fossils were a big. sticking point. Why were there. it clearly extinct animals that had. lived before? >> Yeah. There's fossils, we have them in. our hands. Why do these kind of resemble the things.

that are alive today? Yes. That doesn't. make any sense. Well, catastrophism, um who which was uh suggested by a guy. named George Cuvier, and Cuvier said that. catastrophism. Which one? I like the second one, catastrophism. Catastrophism. >> Yeah. Uh says that something happens, and volcanoes, floods, pestilence, something very biblical happens and a.

species dies out in an area and a new. species comes in and fills it in and. maybe that species just from living in. proximity was similar. uh and they. that that explains why some are extinct. and some are now here. I would also call. that coincidentalism. Yeah. [laughter]. It's another way to put it. That's a. good pronunciation. It wasn't like super. science-based. Right, but this is these. like these this was a well-respected. scientist. >> Um and this was the prevailing thought.

at the time that creationism and the. natural sciences went hand in hand. Creationism was the basis for it and. Darwin is about to say. you know that basis that everybody's. built science on for the last several. centuries? Yeah. It's not that's that. doesn't hold water. And then he went and. threw up. A- again and again. Apparently. he threw up a lot. Yeah, when his when. On the Origin of the Species came out in. 1859, he was at a spa. recovering from bouts of nausea. Yeah.

So yeah, he was off throwing up. I feel. bad for the guy. Sure. He was just. racked with anxiety his entire life. But. imagine that. Imagine being racked with. anxiety and still going through with it. It's pretty impressive. It is. Uh so. previous to its publication, another. important thing happened. We mentioned. earlier Alfred Russel Wallace. He was a fellow Englishman and specimen. collector and he. basically. wrote. almost exactly the same thing that.

Darwin had been working on. Sent it to Darwin. and. um. people urged them both to present their. works at something called the Linnaean. Society uh in 1858. They did so together. as a team, but um it wasn't it didn't. kind of uh make much of a splash at the. time. It wasn't until he officially. published his work. that it you know made the splash. Right. and Alfred. Alfred Russell Wallace actually was the.

impetus for him to publish. um. Origin of the Species. >> Yeah. He he'd been sitting there. dawdling waiting waiting waiting. procrastinating. not mowing his lawn. And he got a letter. from Wallace like you said and he. realized holy cow Wallace has come up. with the same thing. >> Yeah. I've been working on this for 30. years. I'm I'm not going to. forget that forget my anxiety. I'm just. publishing this puppy. Yeah. And he he. did and it came out in 1859. Um.

and he was hailed as. a villain and a. genius. Yeah. Depending on who you spoke. to. And let's talk about the Origin of. the Species and what it says and what. natural selection means Chuck. Um. First of all the official title of the. book is On the Origin of Species by. Means of Natural Selection or The. Preservation of Favored Races in the. Struggle for Life. Yeah. And that's why.

everybody calls it Origin of the. Species. Because it's long and wordy. Right. >> Yeah. >> [music]. [music]. [music].

>> But what it basically says is that. um. species. adapt. They adapt due to population. pressure. Yeah. They adapt through. competition with one another, Right. >> between species, inside species. Um that. when you see like slightly different. traits, individual traits are to be. expected, but those individual traits. can ultimately lead to a new species on. a long enough time uh table. Yeah.

>> If those traits make their their. increase their chance of surviving to. reproduction age. >> Yeah. and enhance their ability to. reproduce. Yeah. Right? >> And if you if you don't if you aren't. good at that, then you go bye-bye. Right. And this. explains why some species are extinct, why the ones that are here today are the. winners, and chillingly, that all of. this is still going on. Yeah. It's very, very slow, so we can't see it. It.

happens on a glacial time scale, a geologic time scale, but it's still. going on, and here's proof. The thing that he doesn't come out and. state, but that wasn't lost on the. Victorians, especially the religious. Victorians, is that. inherent in that argument. >> Yeah. is that man, Yeah. the king of the. world, >> Yeah. is nothing more than an animal that. evolved from who knows what. >> Yeah, he I bet I bet he fretted over. that so much because he believed it, but.

I think there only two mentions of. mankind. in the entire work. But the implications were clear. Like, the public at large may not have been. wise to it at first, but scientists were. like, "Wait a minute. Are you saying that we. came from from apes?". >> like, "I'm at a spa recovering from. nausea. I can't be reached.". >> [laughter]. >> Um but yeah, he definitely skirted. around coming out and saying that up. front as in plain English. >> and it caused, like you said, a poop. storm.

Yeah, and I guess we should say Russell. Wallace was uh. he's been sort of lost to history as far. as, you know, what most people know. Um. Yeah, it's sad. It is sad because he was. a smart guy, but he wasn't he had no. standing. um like Darwin did. And that's kind of. one of the reasons he was forgotten to. history. Right. He um he was out in the. field and he was he seemed to be. happiest out in the field after this um. this theory was introduced. Um he. retreated back to the Malay Peninsula. Yeah. uh uh to to collect um.

specimens. Yeah, but he would sell them. which kind of degraded his standing, I. think. >> Right. Just but he was using those funds. to further fund more scientific. exploration. Right. You know, it's not. like he was funding his opium habit or. something like that. >> But the point is Darwin didn't need to. sell it. So, I think he was people were. like, "Well, this guy's collecting. species and selling them. He's a. merchant.". >> Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. And regardless of whether Wallace um. Russell was a, you know, a great. scientist or or not Yeah. it didn't. matter. If you put these two men and.

their theories were exactly equal, but. one was of higher social standing and. greater wealth. >> Yeah. well, that guy won. >> Sure. And that was Darwin. >> Yeah. Um so, Darwin became. >> He Exactly. >> Yeah. Under uh Victorian aristocracy. rules. >> Yeah. But he became the again, the. rallying point, the fulcrum, the center. of the universe in this new debate that. he unleashed between creationism and. evolution Yeah. that's still going on. today. Literally. Not today, but a couple weeks ago.

>> [laughter]. >> Right? So, almost literally. Um and he. didn't like that at all. So, what he. said was, "You know what? You guys talk. this over. I I'm going to go hit my hit the spa. Yeah. And um. >> Throw up. Do what you want with it. >> Right. I'm going away." I've got a lawn. to not mow. But lucky for him, he had a. lot of supporters like right out of the. gate. Yeah, he had he had both. He had. um supporters uh scientists that. I think some wanted.

wanted to say this stuff all along and. now that they had such a like wonderful, concise, and well-researched piece of. work to back them up, they came out of. the woodwork and like, "Yeah. See, this is great." But, some people. weren't In fact, I think. Oh, I can't remember the guy's name. Someone he really respected and his wife. really respected basically slammed them. and. called it heresy. And that was really. impactful. Again, more anxiety. Oh,

yeah. More throwing up. And there was a. lot of name-calling. There was a lot of. political cartoons that were. unflattering. Um and unflattering for. the Victorian age. So, basically his. head on a monkey or something like that. >> Right. Um but. he while he had his detractors, he had. his supporters. And there was one guy in. particular named Thomas Huxley. And he was, I believe, the grandfather. of Aldous Huxley. Oh, yeah? Uh-huh. And. sometimes you'll if you see Darwin's. theory mentioned, you'll see the. Darwin/Huxley.

theory. Because Huxley. basically was. a religious man. Yeah. And Darwin. I think. firsthand, not just through the Origin. of the Species, but through. correspondence as well, convinced him. like, "No, dude, natural selection is. actually right." And very ironically, just like Saul converting to Paul on the. road to Damascus, Huxley converts from a. religious fervent to a natural selection.

fervent. >> Yeah. And he. just takes it with. religious zealotry and starts taking on. anybody he can in debate, writing any. article he can, and defending not just. Darwin, but his his theory as well. >> Yeah. And it came so much so that he. came to be known as Darwin's bulldog. And he actually coined the term. agnostic. Oh, really? >> Yeah, he was the one that coined that. term to differentiate people like. himself who was who were still believers. in God but also fervent believers in um.

in natural selection as well. Huh, yeah. That's pretty cool. So, that wasn't the only thing he wrote. That was his life's work for sure but he. wrote um 11 more published 11 more times. before 1882. uh and then finally 1973. which is pretty old for someone who was. in such ill health his entire life. Sure. Uh heart heart attack finally got. him. >> Yeah. Very sad. It is but he lived a good long nauseated.

life. You know? >> That's a good point. So, I guess we. should talk a little bit about his. legacy. Right? >> Yeah. You do that kind of work, you pass. away, you're going to have a legacy. Sure. They name a city in Australia. after you. Really? I believe it's Darwin, Australia. Please God, don't let it be. New Zealand. You want to look? No. Okay. I'm I'm I'm. feeling like a gambling man today. Got. you. Uh so, his influence um from then on and. continues to be today. uh.

Lamb calls it rightfully so a paradigm. shift in science, society, and. literature. Like it can't be. understated. It was a game changer for. kind of everything and the way things. went. You were on one side or the other. It's like Mio water. It changes. everything. What's that? You haven't. seen that ad? Uh-uh. For like the little. droplets of uh flavoring you can add to. your water? Uh I've seen that. So, you. haven't seen the ad where the guys in. the office talking and like as you as. they cut back and forth everything keeps. changing because they're adding Mio Oh,

it's one of the better ads around. And. you know me, I'm an ad aficionado. That's true. Well, one thing we can um point to is. that uh. Herbert Spencer, he was a sociologist um. after Darwin applied. Darwinism to sociology in the form of. social Darwinism, aka survival of the. fittest. >> Right. Which. it didn't bastardize it, but it. definitely he definitely used it for his.

own purposes to say that. uh you know what? The weak we shouldn't even worry about. the weak. If we want to be a strong mankind, then. let the weak die out. >> Well, you know so um this uh sociologist. that came up with this idea of social. Darwinism, Herbert Spencer. Yeah. That's. a very Malthusian. view of. humanity and um nature. Yeah. >> Because Malthus was basically saying. like, "Look, man, we take care of the. poor and everything. Yeah. But if we do.

that, we're interfering with nature and. we're going to end up overburdening the. population Yeah. >> because population's going to grow. geometrically and we're not going to be. able to support ourselves and society's. going to collapse." Yeah. That was what. Malthus was saying. This guy said, "Yeah.". Yeah, it's weird that. >> Darwin was in the middle of kind of both. uh bookended by these two Right. >> two ideas. >> And I think it really just you can kind. of say like it really just kind of he. was lacking a bit of evil.

Where if he had been a little more evil, maybe he would have come up with social. Darwinism himself. Yeah. Um but he. didn't. Herbert Spencer did and it kind. of took off like a rocket. This idea. like, "Yeah, wait a minute. Wait a. minute. Wait a minute. We don't need to. pay taxes anymore. Right. >> We don't need to tithe. We can just, you. know, let the poor die in the streets. It's social Darwinism. Survival of the. fittest. We don't have to feel guilt for. not taking care of these other people. any longer. Survival of the fittest. They weren't meant to be. And basically. they replaced God's will.

with nature's will Yeah. in the the. in explaining the cruelty of the world. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And um like I. said, it took off. It became what what. uh. we call the eugenics movement very. quickly. Yeah, which was the idea that. the government would actually get. involved in weeding out. the weaker. uh. parts of society. Yeah, because you. don't have to wait around for evolution. to do this. We can speed it up by.

picking out the weakest and and. exterminating them. >> Or at the very least letting them. exterminate themselves by only breeding. uh you know the. the boys from Brazil. Yeah, I finally saw half of that movie. I can't tell you how surprised I was see. to or surprised I was to see Steve. Guttenberg. Oh, Goots was one of the kids, wasn't. he? He was like the first one. >> Yeah, yeah. Yep. God, I forgot about. that. Oh, wait a minute. He was one of. the kids from the experiment? No, he. wasn't. He was like the journalist Oh,

was he? >> that's like blowing the cover off of. this whole thing. I haven't seen it in a long time. Yeah. I know it was creepy though. Yeah. So. yeah, possibly gave birth to eugenics. Which we should say obviously um the. Nazis loved and they used that to uh. rationalize the extermination of the. Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, epileptics, the mentally handicapped, uh the blind, everybody. Um Guys who smelled like me. Yeah, you. would have been in big trouble. >> Yeah. Um.

but prior to the Nazis doing this, uh. the United States. Indiana. Georgia. all sorts of other states forced. sterilization on uh people of of similar. stature. Yeah. Um and actually. Adolf Hitler well, Germany had its own. sterilization program as well, but Adolf. Hitler was apparently well aware of what. was going on in America and um was a. pretty big fan of it. And if um you. don't believe me, go back and listen to.

our episode um. is it legal to sterilize addicts? >> Oh, yeah. Cuz it's still going on today. That was a good one. Yeah. So what about this deathbed recant? Had. you ever heard that? I have. Not true, apparently. So, he supposedly said on his deathbed, basically, I I I take it all back. Yeah, I wish I hadn't have ever said this. >> Yeah. Uh it's not true. You know, God is. uh God is good. God's the one. And a. woman from New England named Lady Hope.

claimed that she was there and and took. this confession. >> Yeah. And. his both his daughter and his son, who. were both at his side while he died, >> said this lady was not at his deathbed. She never came to our house. >> Right. Uh and she had absolutely no. influence on our father's way of looking. or judgment or opinions at all. He never. recanted. To the end, he was a an ardent. supporter of natural selection. Yeah, that's a pretty good idea, though, if.

you're a creationist. Well, I mean, to make up that story. Yeah. Like, the father of evolution even. changed his mind on his deathbed. >> If you look up today on the internet, like um. uh I think Darwin deathbed, even, will. bring up like creationist website after. creationist website that use it to. support their claims. Oh, really? Mhm. But, it's bunk. It's It was debunked right afterwards. >> Yeah. And then, Chuck, let me say one. more thing about social Darwinism. Okay. Um this idea, although in a very cold,

calculated sense, it might make sense, it. it it it doesn't appear in humanity's. history. In fact, there's evidence um. from up to 500,000 years ago of severely. disabled people, fossils their fossils, their remains being found, um. where they could not possibly have lived. to the age they lived to without being. cared for by their community. Wow. So, this idea that, you know, in a more primitive state, we just, you.

know, left people to to die out in the. weather because they couldn't keep up, >> Yeah. doesn't hold water. Well, that's. good to know. Yeah, it is. Very. comforting that So, that means we were. innately have compassion as a species? I would guess that, yeah. That's the way. I like to look at it. I think it's one. of the things that makes us human. Agreed. But, not just us. No. Other. species have compassion, too. Toats. So, um. maybe we should uh why don't you play us. out with a little bit of Darwin, man? >> [laughter].

>> Yeah, his the last paragraph of The. Origin of the Species to me is one of. the most beautiful things ever written. So, I'm going to read it. Okay. Uh it is. interesting to contemplate an entangled. bank. and he's talking about his home in Kent. That. patch of grass? Yeah, well, no, all of. it. Uh it is interesting to contemplate an. entangled bank closed with many plants. of many kinds with birds singing on the. bushes. with various insects flitting about and. with worms crawling through the damp. earth and to reflect that these. elaborately constructed forms, so.

different from each other independent on. each other in so complex a manner, have. all been produced by laws acting around. us. These laws, taken in the largest. sense, being growth with reproduction, inheritance, which is almost implied by. reproduction variability from the. indirect and direct action of the. external conditions of life and from use. and disuse a ratio of increase so high. as to lead to a struggle for life and as. a consequence to natural selection. entailing divergence of character and.

the extinction of less improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from. famine and death, the most exalted. object which we are capable of. conceiving, namely, the production of. the higher animals, directly follows. Uh there is grandeur in this view of. life with its several powers having been. originally breathed into a few forms or. into one. That's where he's kind of. skirting around things. And that whilst this planet has gone. cycling on according to the fixed law of. gravity, from so simple a beginning,

endless forms most beautiful and most. wonderful have been and are being. evolved. Bravo. Good stuff, Chuck. Not me. Both of you. That was a great reading. >> I felt like I was in our Halloween. episode again. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it was. good, Chuck. Don't thank me. Chuck's. I can just. read. Uh you got anything else? I got. nothing else. >> I think that was a fine way to end this. one. Um if you want to learn more about. Charles Darwin, the man, uh and his. ideas, you can type Darwin into the.

search bar at houseofworks.com. It. should bring up a whole bunch of. articles, some of which we will record. into podcasts. >> Yeah, or that movie Creation is really. good. Or if you're into documentaries, um. there are tons of them. The BBC's got. like a dozen. Oh, yeah, they love him. there. Sure. Uh well, since I said uh. search bar, I probably did. Uh. it's time for listener mail. Uh before the mail, there's a quick. correction uh in our Kent State episode,

said Mussolini had his. brown shirts. >> Yeah. They were the black shirts. Duh. No biggie. It's the presence of all. color, not the presence of some colors. Brown is the new black, anyway. Is that. right? Orange is. All right. I'm going to call this uh. amputee. uh. amputee. Like amputee {comma} amputee? >> Mhm. Okay. Uh hey guys, been listening. for a couple years now and really enjoy. it. As a 60-year-old woman who had her. right leg amputated above the knee in.

1969. due to cancer, I was especially. interested in that podcast. Uh first I. want to correct one offhand comment in. which you stated that being an amputee. probably becomes the focus of your life. Uh not always. In my case, being an. amputee did not become the focus. In fact, occasionally friends. forget that I am an amputee now. I consider it a compliment. Um as you said, life isn't over because. a person becomes an amputee. I was. married for 20 years, went to graduate school for my master's. degree in counseling psychology. I have.

two wonderful grown children. I worked. from the age of 14 to 55 with time off. for raising kids and attended graduate. school and have been able to travel. quite a bit. I've been lucky not to have experienced. phantom pain. I have always had and have. been told by my doctors will always have. phantom feeling though. It feels as. >> That is so weird. >> I know. It feels as though my amputated leg is. present but asleep. Sort of a benign. prickly feeling. >> Hmm. The feeling quickly faded into the. background and I only notice it now when.

I'm thinking about it. You may be interested also to know that. the artificial leg I received in 1969. was literally a wooden leg. No way. From. the knee down. I'm now on my fourth. >> [music]. >> prosthesis. Prosthesis. I thought she's. going to say like an old Bessie still. with me. No. No. I'm now on my fourth prosthesis and they. get better and better. My current leg is. very high-tech and impressive. It can make coffee. >> [laughter]. >> That is from Denise. Slatengren.

Awesome. >> From [music] Arcata. Arcata, California. Nice. Not Arcadia. This northern California. A R C A T A. Thanks Denise. You sound like a very. well adjusted person. and we appreciate you writing in calling. us out on that. And I hope you still. have old Betty on the shelf somewhere at. least. It's Betsy, Chuck. >> Betsy? Yeah. I would keep it. Just got. to carve it into the side. >> Nice. You know. Yeah. Um. thanks for writing in and if any of you. out there want to write in, share your. story, we love hearing them. We're.

pretty much like the central clearing. house for people's stories. So. bring them to us. We will disseminate. them as best we can. That's right. You. can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com. and check out our social links and you. can also send us a good old fashioned. email. Wrap it up, spank it on the. bottom with it some good old country. goodness and send it off to Stuff. Podcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts [music].

my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.