Selects: Child Labor: Not Funny | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody, this is Josh and for this. week's select, I've chosen our August. 2021 episode on child labor. It's one of. those rare episodes that contains a. mention of an episode that we should do. that we actually did the newsy strike. So, it's significant for that reason and. it is a fairly bleak episode as you. might guess, but it also goes to show. how far we've come. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a.

production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and Jerry's out there hovering. around in the digital um weird audio. ether. And this is stuff you should. know. This is going to be a good. uplifting fun one. and a bouncy light. one. >> I think so. And it's, you know, hot off. the presses from our uh uh my daughter.

just wrote this episode for us. >> Yeah. Yeah. In record time, too. I was. impressed. >> You didn't pay her, did you? >> No. Uh but it's funny. I went to look. up, you know, I've talked before about, you know, the fact that I started. working when I was 13 at a barbecue. restaurant. >> Uhhuh. And uh minimum wage when I. started working was $3.35 an hour. >> Wow. We How far we've come? >> Yeah. Not far. They've doubled it in the.

past whatever 40 years. >> Isn't that nuts, dude? >> Yeah. And you know, we'll get to that, but I have a list of kind of where we. ended up with minimum wage along the. years. But yeah, JJ's Barbecue. 335 an. hour, baby. >> Wow. That's pretty great. My first um uh. job was even younger than that. I was. like nine or 10 when I was a paper boy. >> Yeah. I mean, I couldn't have made more. than cuz I was only It's not like I was. working every night. I was working. weekends. >> Mhm. >> I probably made like less than $50 a.

week. >> But I mean, you're 13. What were you. spending it on? 13 in like a good clean. Christian kid. You weren't spending that. on anything. >> Archie comics. That buys a lot of Archie. comics. >> Yeah, it does. Yes, it does. Although. they have a lot of variation. So you. could easily spend $50 a week on Archie. comics. >> Oh back then though those things were. cheap. I was living high on the hog. >> But so it sounds like it, man. It so our. buddy Dave um helped us out with this. one. Dave Ruse and he makes a really.

good point that you and I sitting around. talking about you know you made 50 bucks. a week. I was a paper boy. like whatever. stresses and troubles that we ran into. post, you know, 1970 something. >> Um, as far as our first jobs go when we. were younger, that does not qualify as. child labor. That's that's not really. what we're talking about here today. >> It's called a kid having a job. >> Exactly. It's called you just stop your. griping right now because there are. actual kids out there who are like real.

deal child laborers who work in like. dangerous conditions for little to no. pay, who don't get to play, who may not. socialize with other kids their age. They may live and work in a mining camp. with nothing but adults and grown-ups. Um, like like they they're they're they. would they would kill for, you know, a. JJ's barbecue job basically. Yeah, and this is a good time to be. talking about that in particular, uh, because this is 2021 is the.

international year for the elimination. of child labor. >> Uh, and as you'll see throughout this. episode, we've made a lot of strides. here in the US, but like you said, it's. not not that way everywhere, and it. should be. >> And I should say, it's probably a little. off the mark to say that a child laborer. would kill for a better job. they would. probably kill to just not have to work. at all in general and just to get get to. be a kid. And I think ultimately for. people who are activists against child. labor, that's the goal is to not like.

get be better working conditions for. six-year-olds, it's to like just make. six-year-olds not have to work any. longer. And we'll talk about how to. solve that, how that that um. international year for the elimination. of child labor aims to do that. They. have some pretty pragmatic ideas. Um, and so hopefully they'll this this. episode will have a nice bow on the end, but we're going to have to slog through. some misery to get there. Chuck, take it. away. >> There's no better place to slog through.

misery than the founding of this country. way back in the old days when the new. world was new and settlers came over and. they very much believed. And why why did. I think this was Ed? You said this is. Dave. Yeah, I'm almost positive it was. Dave. >> It was Ed. >> It reads like a Dave to me, but Oh, man. If it's Ed, I'm sorry. Sorry to both of you. >> Well, sure. We need to get those guys. together one day. >> I I think the. >> Or maybe we should keep them far apart.

>> Yeah, exactly. They might they might. turn against us. >> Uh yeah, so they believe very much that. the idol's hands were the devil's. workshop. That old saying. And it, you. know, this is one of those it was kind. of hard for me to, you know, let let's. just lop off, you know, developing. nations today, which is clearly awful. I. found myself as an adult more and more. with the cultural relativism thinking. like obviously 5-year-olds shouldn't be. working in factories. >> But when I read about like 12 and 13y.

olds working hard back then, I was kind. of like, it's not great. But it was. that's just kind of how it was at the. time. If you had parents that were. farmers, you're not going to, you know, be just. hanging out until your sweet 16th. birthday having a good time. You're. going to be working from a pretty young. age. And I found myself more and more. thinking like, you know, in certain. situations that wasn't the worst thing, but then you get to the industrial. revolutions and, you know, that's when. things really got bad. But kind of early.

on, that's really what we were talking. about was a lot of kids working on the. farms, >> a lot of boys working on the farm, uh, girls working in the house alongside. their sisters and mom. >> And, you know, this kind of started when. they were about 13 years old. They were. sort of expected to either go work and. get a job and work full-time or to. become an apprentice, an unpaid. apprentice, >> uh, to work for food and board and. training. And I think also in addition.

to that Protestant work ethic of like em. like just completely in the fabric of. America that was just coming out in you. It's also this idea of like what else. are you going to do? It's not like you. can sit around and play video games or. watch TV or do almost anything else. except just play outside. Um, but Chuck, I I went back and looked to see if it. was always this way. And apparently in. medieval England, you played basically. until you hit puberty and then you.

started to get put to work. >> When you hit puberty at four, >> right? More like 14, but like there was. like a childhood and it seems to have. been somewhat wiped out by that. Protestant work ethic that the Puritans. brought over. um or at the very least it. was set back a little more, you know, age-wise where you started working maybe. a little sooner than you would have had. you been in medieval England at the. time. >> Right. I think I guess I'm just trying. to draw a line between.

life in the 1640s and then life in 1938. when we eventually did something about. it in the US. >> Yeah. No, totally. And there is an. enormous distinction between that cuz it. was it was like widespread but it just. it seemed like they were mostly working. with their families and it was just kind. of the way that things were. That was. how life was. But it. >> you got to try and like keep your family. alive. It's not like. >> Yeah. >> You know, they were they were trying to. just all survive basically, >> right? And that's actually the reason. why it's still around in other parts of.

the world today. It's not not even. necessarily like a like a work ethic. where children should should work. because idol hands are the devil's play. things like the the Puritans thought. Instead, it's like this is an extra. worker we can have go out and make money. to keep the rest of the family alive. >> Yeah. >> We just don't have a choice in not doing. that. And that's that's what drives it. still today. >> Right. uh when the industrial revolution. came around and we're talking about. basically cotton factories in a big big.

way. Uh there were a lot of little kids. working there and people like George. Washington and Alexander Hamilton. thought that was awesome. >> Mhm. They did. And like we're going to. be skewered for even suggesting that. Hamilton said this, but he did. He said. that women and children in America would. be quote rendered more useful by. manufacturing establishments than they. otherwise would be. Um, and I think what. he was saying is like.

I'm not even going to paraphrase what he. was saying. I think it's it it you can. understand it on its face. >> Yeah. He's saying what you know they're. not doing much use for us. These kids. and he's mainly talking about kids here. who would otherw quote who would. otherwise be idol. Uh, this isn't Lin. Manuel Miranda saying this. We all love. him. >> No, this isn't He didn't say this in a. charming rap. >> No, this is the real Alexander Hamilton, >> right? >> Uh, and again, it was just a different. time. Um, but even way back then in the. early 1800s, not everyone thought this.

was a great thing. Uh there was a future. mayor of Boston named Josiah Quincy and. >> Joe Quimby. >> who toured a cotton factory, a cotton. spinning factory. And they had, you. know, four year olds working there all. the way to 10 uh maybe 10 12 hours a day. for anywhere from 12 to 25 cents a day, not an hour, >> right? And he said, uh, compassion calls. us to pity these little creatures,

flying in a contracted room among flyers. and cogs at an age when nature requires. for them air, space, and sports. There. was a dull dejection and the countenance. of all of them. And uh, you know, we'll. get to some of these photos of some of. these kids later on. When you look at. them, they look like beaten down. miniature adults. >> Yeah. Yeah, they really do. >> They look like us. >> Exactly. They look ready to retire. They. look unhappy. They look um Yeah, just.

beaten down, but they're miniature and. their kids, their children. And it's. really upsetting to see that a. photograph of that. I'm sure it's even. more upsetting to see it in real life. Um and that's actually how a lot of this. a lot of change came through was just. people being exposed to seeing that and. kind of being shocked, having their. conscience shocked. But as as. potentially like bad as it was for the. children of colonial America who were. forced to work, um it got way way worse.

when the second industrial revolution. kicked off, the one powered by steam and. steel and railroads. >> and and unbridled capitalism. and you. inject unbridled capitalism into a a um. an economy that allows for child labor, you can imagine that things are going to. get much much worse for the children. before it finally gets better. >> That's right. And things did get worse. uh when you're when all of a sudden you. have a robust steel industry and coal.

mining industry. Um you have railroads. that need this stuff in a big big way. >> and they uh you know partially kind of. ran out of workers and partially just. saw what was right underneath their. noses which is these kids who they at. this point they had long known that they. could work and farm and work hard. So. they said, you know what, uh, a lot of. these families in rural America, farming. dried up a bit, so they moved to the. city. A lot of it was immigrant labor. as, uh, millions of people came into the.

country from Europe, fleeting their. poverty, famine-stricken countries. And. no matter where they came from, it was. all under the thumb of uh, the robber. barons, which was uh, I can't remember. when we did it. It feels like a few two. or three years ago, but pretty good. podcast on the robber barons. >> Yeah. Yeah, and we also talked about. them uh in our book. >> We talked about keeping up with the. Joneses. They played a big role in that. too. But yeah, so like these the Robert. Barons got rich through innovation,

through consolidation, through some. pretty clever stuff. A lot of them. invented new techniques or processes or. procedures. So like they they definitely. were doing something. and they were. being productive, but they also got to. be filthy rich off of the backs of. immigrant labor, child labor that they. directly exploited. And um it was. basically like. there was just nobody looking out for. anybody else at this time. It was just. such a a period of such enormous.

economic insurgence that there weren't. there weren't anybody or there wasn't. anybody who was sitting there saying. like whoa whoa whoa everybody we need to. stop and really think about this and do. this in a much more directed smarter. healthier way for our society. It was. like. >> it was like just go let's see where this. takes us and a lot of people got. trampled underfoot and that definitely. included children laborers or child. laborers. >> That's right. And uh I think that's good. time for a break. Yay.

>> Yay. >> That's two yays. Any nays? >> Mm-. [Laughter]. So, we'll be back and we'll talk a. little bit about what some of these jobs. might have been uh in the late 19th. century for these kids right after this. [Music].

I wonder how many gallons of coffee. everyone who has listened to this this. show since the beginning has heard me. drink. >> I didn't even hear you drinking for. >> Oh, you didn't when I said Uhuh. I had a. I had a mouthful of cafe. Oh, interesting. I have no shirt on. >> Nice. That's awesome, man. You You just top.

mine. >> You said no, that's not true. >> I think you should have left it. mysterious, Chuck, because there were a. few people out there who were about to. email and say, "I was offended that. Chuck said he wasn't wearing a shirt.". >> Yeah. No, I put it on right before we. recorded. I had it off. >> It's It's a little hot. I. >> I felt like I needed to dress up. Put. the t-shirt back on. Right. Do you Are. you wearing one of those tuxedo shirt. t-shirts? >> You ever had one of those? Did you ever. have one? >> No, I didn't. >> No, I didn't either.

>> You didn't You didn't wear them with. your rainbow suspenders? >> No, that's that stuff was a little too. cutesy even for me. >> Gotcha. Okay. What about the one that looks like. I' I would wear it. >> Okay. >> What about one that looks like a like a. ripped like chest and abdomen? >> Have you ever worn a t-shirt like that? >> No. Those are fun, though. I. >> for certain people. >> they're fun. They're also like really. good at boosting your ego quietly. >> Sure. There's nothing like me looking in.

a mirror at my beer belly covered in. spray painted abs. >> Right. It really works. Your brain the. brain is so dumb that it falls for it. every time. I can attest. >> Um all right. So we were going to talk. about what some of these jobs might be. and it kind of really depended on where. you were living. Um, if you lived in the. city or if you lived in a company town. where they had these factories, you were. going to be working in factories. Lived. out in the rural areas, you be working. on farms.

>> And most most Americans still lived on. farms at the time. So, most child labor. took place on farms. >> But if you were on that farm, uh, you're. going to be picking cotton and tobacco. You're going to be picking a lot of. stuff and doing all the sort of stuff. that goes on after the picking, which is. >> stemming, deseeding, >> all that stuff. Shucking. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> That's stuff I did when I was a kid. We. had a big big garden and my mom took us. to the canery. Uh, and it was awful. I.

hated it. >> She took you to the canery like for a. sightseeing trip or for work? >> To can. So like there was a canery that. your mom went to. You guys had so much. stuff you had to go to a second location. to can it? >> There was a canery in Dicab County. >> A sort of industrial canery for the. people. >> Okay. >> And we would take green beans and corn. and uh we made preserves and all kinds. of stuff. And they had like and you know.

you could can your own junk there. >> Sounds like a utopia. >> And Yeah. And we would, you know, put. Sharpie uh like beans on the can on. Sharpie and put it in the pantry. >> Huh. That's really interesting. >> Really interesting. >> I had no idea that there was a canery in. Dicab County. >> Yeah. Not too far from where I live now. Actually, it's like 15 minutes away. probably. >> Do you shudder every time you pass it? >> I do a little actually. I don't pass it. much, but it's over near the dog uh.

pound where you can go adopt a dog. And. so I think we adopted Nico there. >> and I drove by the canery and just like. >> Yeah, I'll bet. >> it was hot. >> Well, you were lucky you weren't five or. six and left there to work all day every. day, aren't you? >> Yes. You know, >> for almost no money. >> Yeah. Pennies for a bucket of whatever. you shucked or shelled or did whatever. peeled. Um Yeah. Working at a canery. would probably not have been very fun. Um there were also furnace stoking jobs. available whether you wanted them or.

not. What else, Chuck? >> Uh, well, kids did work in caneries. They. also worked in textile mills. They had. bobbin boys and bobbin girls. >> This one doesn't sound so bad to me, but. I'm sure I'm missing something that. makes it atrocious. >> Well, I mean, they would climb up on the. machine and remove the bobbins, the full. bobbins, and replace them with empty. ones. So, I don't think that was like. the worst job in the world, but uh when. you're doing that for 10 or 12 hours a. day and you're six, it's it's probably a. bit of a buzzkill.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I have an a problem. inherently with child labor in general. >> Yeah, I know what you mean. >> Not like having a job like you or I had. first job. I got no problem with that. But child child any kind of child labor, even if it is kind of cush. comparatively. >> No, I agree. That one wasn't terrible. It may have been dangerous though. I. don't know. There's no way how those. bobbins were. >> Yeah. There's no way it wasn't. dangerous. It had to have been. dangerous. We're talking about the 19th. century in industry. It was dangerous in. some way. >> There was no OSHA. >> No.

>> No one knew what that was. >> If you did live in the city and did uh. work uh around factories, um you would. do that. But there were also plenty of. other jobs you could deliver like be. essentially they call them telegraph. boys sort of delivering you know emails. basically by hand to people all over. town. >> Mhm. >> Uh you could shine shoes. You could sell. newspapers like you did. >> Mhm. I didn't stand on a street corner. I wasn't a newsy which we'll talk a. little more about newsies in a second. I. was a delivery boy and not not a really.

great one either. I frequently overslept. and um was not good at delivering. papers. My mom and my oldest sister. would have to do my route once in a. while. Um, >> is this a bike deal? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um, and uh, the thing is is like they. also make you shake down the people for. their delinquent subscription. So I was. like a strong arm guy too for the Toledo. Blade as well. >> I want my $2. >> basically. That's exactly right. I And. that was right in my wheelhouse too. I.

was like, "This hits a little too close. to home for me to laugh at this kid. >> I know what he's going through. I've had. to put my foot in somebody's door before. to get their $2. Didn't ask for a dime. >> Yeah, I haven't seen that in a while. That was a good movie. >> Yeah, >> classic. >> Yeah. >> Uh, if you lived in the mountains of. Appalachia, you might have been a a. breaker boy. Um, or a mule handler. And. breaker boys, we'll get I guess we can. go ahead and tell everyone what that is. >> Sure. >> You would sit around and and break apart.

lumps of coal into uniform pieces all. day long. >> Yep. and break dance on your brakes. >> Yeah, breaker boys. >> But that was it. And they wouldn't let. you wear gloves while you were breaker. boy, too, because they're like, "No, no, you can't break these things as. uniformly if you wear gloves, you stupid. kid." So, you you have to basically. absorb all of this cold dust into your. skin, get all sorts of little cuts and. calluses and all that by the time you're. six, seven, eight, um, and just do this.

This is your life now. Welcome to. Pennsylvania, >> right? Uh then let's say you managed to. escape all forms of formal jobs. >> Your parents, they they didn't make you. go to the factory. You did live in the. city, so you didn't have to work on a. farm. >> And you might think you just had it uh. made in the shade. Not so because there. was plenty of jobs that you could do. right there from your cruddy little. tenement apartment. Uh like weaving. baskets or making paper flowers or hand. rolling cigars and cigarettes all day.

long and selling them. >> Yeah. It was like, you know, your whole. family worked on a farm or if you lived. in a tenement, your whole family worked, you know, in what what are called. tenement industries. So there was. basically not a lot of escape. I get the. impression that you basically had to. have wealthy parents to not be forced. into child labor at the time. >> Yeah. And I might have mentioned this. once before. My mom did a thing for a. little while where uh. >> we would make money doing like stuffing. envelopes.

>> Mhm. >> Did you remember that stuff? >> I do. >> And I don't even remember what it was. for. I guess they were for companies. >> Okay. I want to say Easter Seals had. people do that too, but I'm sure they. didn't pay. >> They're notorious cheap. >> So, this would be like a company that. would have like a packet they would send. out that had like five things in it. >> I gota. >> and we would be responsible for getting. all that stuff in huge boxes, assembling. it all. >> into the envelopes that they could mail. and we would get paid as a family to do. that. >> That's cute. That's super late 70s,

early 80s. It's like I can see your mom. talking on the princess phone making all. the arrangements for them to ship that. to her. >> and getting the instructions, you know, and then hanging up and that 50 foot. long cord just kind of coils up on its. own quietly on the floor. >> Yeah. And I didn't mind that so much. because I made a little money and I. could that's something I could do while. I watch television. >> Yeah, totally. Totally. >> Which is the perfect job as we all know. >> Yeah. Not exactly a high pressure job. It sounds like I wouldn't even know if. that qualifies as a tenement industry to.

tell you the truth. >> No, not in the 1970s. >> No. You had a lot of jobs though as a. kid. Good for you. That Protestant. >> I always wanted my own money. >> Protestant work ethic shining through. like a a city upon a hill. >> Should we talk newsies? >> Yeah, we should. And I think also the. newsy um strike that we're going to. mention deserves its own episode at. least. if not its own episode. Okay. So yeah, let's just not talk about nies. >> No, no. I thought the same thing. And.

the more I got into the strike, I was. like, "This is just too much. We got to. do something." Uh, but the idea was. >> that little boys would buy a stack of. newspapers wholesale for about 50 cents. per 100. >> Girls, too. I saw girls that did it, too. >> Oh, girls did it, too. All right. And. they sold them for a penny a piece. that. they would make half a penny per paper. uh selling in the big cities, especially. New York City, of course. And then. eventually in 1899, they did go on. strike. And it was a big deal. It kind.

of ground I mean, it didn't grind them. to a complete halt, but it really. disrupted their their flow in getting. newspapers into the hands of people. >> Dude, the their sales over this two-week. strike went down 23. >> Yeah. like they brought the they brought. Pulitzer Pulitzer and um Hurst to to. their knees basically these newsies did. and they got some concessions too. >> Yeah. And I think the deal was is that.

morning subscribers were generally. subscribers or the morning paper was. generally for subscribers but it was. that afternoon paper. >> that second edition that the newsies. really rad it in on because most people. didn't subscribe to that. >> Right. >> And uh so they really weren't selling. any second editions hardly. And the one. big concession they got, which was huge, was they got them to agree to full. buybacks on unused unsold papers, which. is a really, really big deal. >> But it also really kind of goes to show.

you how much the the the newspaper. barons believe newsies were scrappy. enough that they wouldn't just sit. around and be like, I don't have to sell. these, you know, I don't have to worry. about this, you know, they they'll be. bought back anyway. I don't have to work. to sell them. Well, but buyback just. means they give them back the money they. paid for them. It's not like they would. make any money. They would just, in. fact, it incentivized them, I think, to. take out more papers. >> Yeah. >> And sell more papers because they knew. they wouldn't be stuck with them. >> Yeah, totally. We'll probably edit that.

part out. >> So, um, one of the things you mentioned. was making cigars like in your family's. one room apartment in say New York or. something like that, right? Yeah, >> that was um apparently. really bad in that not only did you work. long hours for very little pain, cramped. working conditions with with your family. on top of everything else, um you would. frequently come down with nicotine. poisoning as a little kid because you're.

rolling cured, sometimes you're handling. unccured tobacco. Um and you're. ingesting lots of nicotine through your. skin at the like, you know, in a single. day. And so you might be nauseated, you. might be dizzy, you might just turn. green. Um, it can get worse than that. too. You actually can suffer respiratory. distress as well. And apparently this is. a big problem still with child laborers. in Zimbabwe because I think uh about 20. years ago that country doubled down on. their tobacco production and now it's.

like one of the biggest um the biggest. exports of Zimbabwe. But it's also a. very poor country, so they use child. labor a lot. And so children are still. to this day being exposed to tobacco and. they're rolling uh they're handling. tobacco, they're rolling stuff, they're. rolling cigars, they're um sorting it. Um they're just kids and tobacco should. not be in the same room together. basically. >> Yeah. It you know, it never occurred to. me that that I guess it would be a.

transdermal. >> ingestion, right? >> Yeah, totally. Uh, but sure, I mean, you. put tobacco on bee stings and all kinds. of things, so of course it's going to. get into their skin. >> Yeah. And having gotten myself sick on. tobacco a time or two in my life, I can. tell you it is not pleasant. And to to. do it against your will just because. you're handling it for your job that you. don't even want is that sounds. torturous, actually. >> Yeah, I love that story. >> Uh, should you retell it for people who.

haven't heard it? Are you talking about. eighth grade in the tree fort? >> Was that when you like smoked a whole. pack of cigarettes and got sick? >> It was more like a pack and a half. >> Okay. >> It was right after I first started. smoking. And I was like, >> unbelievable. >> I was like, uh, I really like how this. makes me feel. Let's see how like 30 of. these things make me feel. And I was. sitting there reading comic books up in. the tree fort in the woods that my. friends and I had built. >> And uh, I just went too far, man. I felt.

so bad. >> Oh man. >> Like green. Like I felt like I looked. green. It was it was bad news. >> That's one of those moments where you. like you really wish you could have like. video footage. >> kind of what that looked like. >> I kind of hope when when I die it's a. little bit like defending your life so. they can show I'll be like show me that. one. We can go over the other stuff but. I really want to see that clip. >> Yeah. Riptor will be there. >> Yeah. The upside of this though is do. not ever start smoking. I I deeply.

regret ever having started smoking as a. kid, as an adult. Doesn't matter. Like. just don't ever start smoking and do. yourself a real favor. >> You did a great job quitting though and. you never looked back. >> Nope. I didn't. Good job. >> It was It was surprisingly easy. >> cuz I was worried. Hold on. One more. thing. I think if there are people out. there who are considering smoking right. now and are worried about the time. they're going to have. One of my big. worries was that I was going to spend. every day of the rest of my life wishing. for a cigarette. And that's just not how.

it goes. Like you you spend a week, two. weeks, if it's really bad, maybe three. weeks really longing for a cigarette and. then it starts to get easier and easier. and then eventually you're grossed out. by the thought of cigarettes and people. smoking cigarettes around you and you. don't ever want to see one again. So, if. that's what's keeping you from quitting, don't let it because that's not how it. is. >> I like that. Good PSA. >> Thanks, man. Thanks. >> Uh, I think before we break, maybe we'll. just go over some of these final stats. here. >> Uh, at the basically the peak and about.

1900. >> Um, by 1890, one out of every five kids. under 16 was working. um 1.7 million kids under 16. uh was 6% of the total workforce in the. 1900 census. >> And that's just kids who were registered. to work in these factories. Like that. does not include these kids rolling. cigars in their house or the kids on the. family farm. So it was much much higher.

than that. >> Yeah. Because I think twothirds of kids. um in general in the in the country. worked in agriculture. So yeah, if they. were not counting agriculture, they. missed out on a lot of kids in that. number. And that's still a staggering. number in and of itself, 1.7 million. Yeah. And if you're wondering back then. what effect this had on education, uh. just a snapshot from Philadelphia in. 1900. Uh 15% of 13year-old boys had left. school to work. And I think half of.

15-year-old boys were not in school. anymore because they were working. >> or the and like a significant portion. because they were naughty, >> right? Yeah. They just didn't want to do. anything. >> But get this, this is the staggering one. to me. 17year-old boys, only 10% of them. were still in school in 1900 in. Philadelphia. That is that does not bode. well for the future um of a of a of a an. economy. And I think that actually is. one reason why public education became.

so much more compulsory and one reason. why people uh came around to anti-child. labor laws is the idea that no, there's. a lot more that they could be doing than. just working in a factory almost. literally their entire lives. Like we. can do we can do better and we can build. a better a better society and a better. economy if we invest in their education. instead of robbing them of it. All right, I guess we'll take a break. and talk about when that started in. earnest. And it wasn't just then when. you mentioned it.

[Music]. So, uh, Chuck, um, it turns out that there were, so the. progressive era is one of my favorite.

eras, or I should say the people from. the progressive era are some of my. favorite people like Francis Perkins, although she was a second or third wave. progressive reformer, but she was. inspired by some of these earlier ones. who were working on things like um, fair. wages like a minimum wage, minimum or. maximum uh work days or working hours. Um and then they also train their sights. on things like ending child labor or at. the very least really restricting the. amount of work a kid could do,

especially um in regards to them being. in school too. The idea was to put. school first. >> and then if the kid had the wherewithal. or their parents really needed the money. or something like that, they could let. them work in addition to school, but the. school needed to come first. And this is. really radical. I mean, it it seems. radical. We had kids rolling cigars in. their one room apartment in New York. their whole lives and now all of a. sudden some people are coming up like, "No, no, no. Kids should be in school. and then maybe working, preferably not.

working." So, how do we make that. happen? Yeah, it was a very big deal. And most. of these or a lot of them were women, people like Jane Adams and Julia Lathrop. and Lillian Ward. Um, anti-poverty. measures and this is stuff that, you. know, they would also go on to champion. uh women's rights and women's rights in. the workforce and women's rights to. vote. >> So, it was the whole progressive. movement was kind of tied up in all. these, you know, radical ideas about, you know, being fair and good, decent.

human beings, >> right? Yeah. radical stuff. >> Um, so, uh, here's the problem is you've got. these robber barons and these factory. owners and then these industrialists who. are like, "Wait a minute, we got a good. deal going cuz we don't have to pay. these kids much. >> They're probably not going to unionize.". Like the newsies thing was definitely an. anomaly. >> Yeah. >> Uh, that didn't happen much. And he said. they were like, "We got a. >> we got a good thing going and uh so. we're going to lobby against this as.

hard as we can." But surely they were. unsuccessful, right? >> No, they were successful. They they did. they blocked a lot of legislation early. on uh for this kind of regulation um. federally. States uh you know, it kind. of depends on where it was, but states. did establish child labor commissions. and some states had some minimum ages, minimum or maximum hours, and minimum. wages. >> It was um they were sparse. I couldn't. find what states passed it, but um for.

the most part there were there was a. there probably for the most part though. there was a um a lot of push back and. enough push back among the states um the. residents of the states that that not a. lot got passed. So there was a. progressive movement that started say in. like the 1890s. and it had to it basically like any. progressive movement it ran full steam. ahead hit a huge wall of industry and. then had to slowly just keep pushing and. pushing and chugging and chugging and.

keeping at it for a few decades before. it was successful. Um, and one of the. ways that it became successful or the. way that it kept pushing at it after it. hit that wall of industry is um, a group. called the National Child Labor. Committee formed. Uh, and I think they. formed in back in 1904 and they were. basically they became a lobbying group. to lobby against the lobbying against. child labor laws that ended child labor. >> Yeah. Um, >> yeah, they had a pretty uh smart way to. get attention. And uh that was in hiring.

a photographer named Lewis Hine. >> Yeah. >> To go around and sneakily document what. was going on with his camera. Uh he was. he worked as a sociologist and a teacher. >> and then later became a photographer or. was also a photographer. >> and uh I think he himself was a a kid. who was working 12 13our days. So he was. like, "Let me start taking pictures of. these kids and maybe that because you. know that's worth a thousand words they. say. >> at least." And he took 5,000.

>> Yeah. >> So that means that he took 50,000 words. >> No, >> five 5,000. 500. >> No, I know. Trying to undermine your. confidence in your math. >> That was totally wrong. It was. purposefully wrong though. Let me just. do that real quick. >> Carry the one. He took five million. words. >> That's a lot of words. Um, and if you go. back, you've probably seen a bunch of. these pictures. If you've seen pictures.

of very unhappy kids outside of a coal. mine or standing on mountains of shucked. oysters. >> or standing around uh factory machines. like little menure adults, they were. probably Lewis Hines photos. >> Yeah. I mean, 5,000 photos all archived. in the Library of Congress um from what. I understand. Um, and he had like a. really great eye to begin with. So, like. they're really great photographs in and. of themselves, but you know, you don't. have to sit there and like, >> you know, try to really contemplate it.

It just hits you immediately what you're. looking at and how sad what you're. looking at is. And so he and the. National Child Labor Committee got these. into newspapers. Um, and like you said, uh, he was very sneaky. He he would pose. as different things. Um, one of them. made sense to me, the industrial. machinery photographer. Okay. >> Yeah, >> got that. But what excuse would a Bible. salesman have for taking photographs of. the kids at the factory? I could not.

find that to save my life. >> I mean, the only thing I would could. think is that got him in the door and. then maybe he was like, "And I just love. kids and can I take some pictures?" But. I don't know. >> And this is a time before stranger. danger, I guess. So they were like, "Sure." I mean, they're child laborers. I don't care about them. >> Yeah. He also um he wore a special. jacket where he had the buttons on the. jacket aligned in known measurements. So. >> if he went over and stood like he would. take a kid's picture and he would ask,

you know, they're documented like their. names and their ages and stuff, >> uh as best he could, but he would go. stand next to them if he felt like he. couldn't outright ask what their age was. to kind of tip off that maybe he was not. a Bible salesman, >> right? Uh, and you know if the kid went. up to the second or third button, he. would know roughly how tall they were or. no, he would know how tall they were. then roughly how old they were. >> Right. The other thing. >> they were giants, >> right? Right. Yeah. I'm sure you know he. didn't get them all. Right. But, you. know, you can't win them all. But the.

other thing that made it um that jacket. special, Chuck, was that the lining was. made of a t-shirt of a ripped chest and. abdomen. And it would make him feel. really good about himself when he put. that jacket on. Oh, that's good. Nice call back. >> Uh, when did things finally change, though? >> Uh, well, they started to kind of. change. Like these these pictures. shocked the conscience of the nation. when they when they saw them, when they. made them into newspapers and they were. accompanied by muckrek getting articles.

about how bad these conditions were and. you know, shame on you America for. turning a blind eye to this kind of. thing. Um, but it wasn't like an. instantaneous switch was thrown. It. still took decades. I think the first. proposal for anti-child labor um. legislation came in 1906. Senator Albert Beverage of Indiana. um was the first to propose it. Got. taken up in 1916 by the Keading Act that. was actually passed but the Supreme. Court shut it down. Um and then there.

was some more legislation that there was. a constitutional amendment actually that. got passed but wasn't ratified by the. states. And then it wasn't until the. Great Depression and the New Deal that. it finally got passed. And I think if it. were just the New Deal, it wouldn't have. gotten passed. But the Great Depression. changed things socially enough that it. opened the door for an end to child. labor in America. >> Yeah. Like ironically, I think massive. unemployment. with so many adults out of work, they.

couldn't turn around and just hire kids. to do these jobs. >> for lower wages. It was I mean even at a. time when it a bad look didn't really. matter as much as as it does today. >> Mhm. >> They even knew that that was a really. bad look and that they probably couldn't. do something like that. So. >> yeah, >> uh eventually the Fair Labors uh Fair. Labor Standards Act of 1938, uh thank you Francis Perkins, our old. buddy. >> That's right. among others. Um this. finally set a national minimum wage for.

the very first time uh maximum number of. hours for workers and then uh child. labor limitations notably that if you. are under 16 you cannot work in. manufacturing and you cannot work in. coal mining at all because they're just. too dangerous. Another couple of things. it did it established uh overtime time. and a half. >> Oh yeah. So if you went over 40 hours a. week, you could only work up to 44, but. you could work four hours at time and a.

half. And that very first minimum wage. was 25 cents an hour, >> man. >> Uh 1939 it went up to 30. 45 it went up. to 40. Uh in 1956 it finally reached a. dollar. >> Kaching. >> And it didn't crack $6 until 2008. >> I know, dude. It's just shameful. >> Isn't that nuts? We definitely need to. do a minimum wage episode, too, because. it's just not as cut and dried as Yeah, just raise the minimum wage. Like,

there's just it like there's a lot to. it. I really want to do one on that. >> Yeah. I hadn't really kept up with it. because I before I got salary jobs, I. worked as a waiter for 15 or 20 years or. something. >> So, or or as a PA on movie sets and TV. sets. >> and that's not a hourly thing either. So, like I hadn't had a an hourly rate. job since college, so I didn't really. know, you know, kind of how it changed. over the years. I did not know. It was.

2008 when they cracked $6. That's really. low. >> It really is. It's very It's That's just. not okay. And it's still at 7 something. right now. It's not even. >> 775. >> Uh, no, it's 725 actually. >> I think it Yeah, that's the national. minimum wage, right? >> Yeah. Again, some of the states are are. raising stuff slowly but surely, but. that's the federal one still. >> Well, this says Alabama doesn't have a. minimum wage. Is that right? Is that. possible? >> Yeah, that's possible, man. That is.

>> have to look into that. That's on the. fly. >> So, um yeah, we'll do a whole one on. minimum wage for sure coming up. But um. you said that the the uh Fair Labor. Standards Act uh was um uh passed in. 1938. and it still basically governs child. labor. Um and one of the things that it. does, Chuck, is it it divides uh child. labor into agricultural and. non-aggricultural jobs. And with. agricult or non-aggricultural jobs, there's like a a pretty decent amount of.

protections like kids can't work in. hazardous stuff until they're 18. Things. like blasting, mining, forest. firefighting, that kind of stuff. Um. that if you're under 16, you can only. work a maximum of three hours a day. during the school year. Um there's some. exemptions. Did you see the thing about. homebased wreath making? >> Yeah. So, you cannot. non-aggriculturally, you cannot work if. you're under 14 at all. Like, I could. not have worked as a bus boy at 13,

>> right? >> Uh supposedly, but I still did. >> Um unless that was passed since then cuz. this thing's been ratified a million. times or not ratified, but amended. >> Uh but yeah, the if you're a child. actor, you can work if you're under 14, obviously. If you're a newsy, you can. still deliver newspapers if you're under. 14. and homebased wreath makers. >> Dude, it's so weird. >> It is weird. And not only is it. homebased wreath making is exempted from. child labor laws in the United States,

it has to be a specific kind of wreath. It has to be mostly evergreen wreaths. >> Wow. >> So, if you're making wreaths and it has. to be at home, if you're having your kid. make wreaths at home and they're not. mostly evergreen, that's illegal. And if. they're making things out of evergreen. that are not wreaths, like say garland, that's illegal. Specifically. homemade wreaths that are mostly. evergreen. >> It's really, really interesting. >> It's one of the most bizarre facts we've.

ever talked about on this on this show. Yeah, for sure. >> I'm going to keep that one in my pocket. >> Totally. But agricultural though, they. have like very little protection. Like. almost shamefully little protections. >> Yeah. If you're 16 years old and you. live on your family farm, they can work. you. Um, there's no limit on how many. hours they can work you. U, you can work. jobs that the Department of Labor. considers hazardous. I think 14year-olds. also can work unlimited hours if it's. outside the school day. And then kids as.

young as 12 I think actually 12 and. younger can work with parental consent. >> Yeah. like basic yeah basically. unlimited hours uh or at least up to 72. hours and that's during the school year. as well. >> And as a result of this uh 55% of child. farm workers graduate from high school. here in you know the 2020ish. >> Yeah. In the United States we're talking. about and the 100,000 of them are.

injured on the job every year. Child. farm laborers. trying to get all this changed. >> Yeah. They're basically saying like, look, just just take these things that. we apply to non-aggricultural jobs and. apply it to agricultural problem solved. And that would solve a lot of problems. I'm sure it would create a lot of. problems that you and I are unaware of, not being farm folk. Um, but it would. solve a lot of the um child labor. problems that child labor activists have. issues with. It would do nothing for the. the the much more rampant problems that.

are uh endemic around the world with. child labor where a lot of it resembles. basically uh how America was with child. labor at the at the you know during the. guilded age. >> Yeah. 158 million kids are uh estimated. to be the victims of child labor around. the world. Uh the good news is that's. down 30% from 20 years ago. Um, but the. bad news is is that's a lot of kids and. uh I think 71% of those are in.

agriculture, harvesting, fishing, hurting, stuff like. that. Uh, but there are a lot of kids. around the world that still like work in. coal mines. >> Yeah. Like that's too narrow for an. adult. It's too dangerous. You go in. there and do it instead. Um, and they'll. work with like they'll work at Wildcat. gold mines. So, they're having to like. separate gold with mercury. So, they're. getting mercury poisoning at a young. age, which really messes with you. developmentally. Um, on tobacco farms in. places like Zimbabwe, not only are they.

having to get um, you know, nicotine. poisoning, they're also being poisoned. by um, toxic pesticides that are used on. the crops and stuff, too. So like the. these kids are working in like. deplorable working conditions and um. there's just some really basic stuff. that needs to change that would just. free the children of the world, the. world around from um what is essentially. like indentured servitude right now.

>> Yeah. And there's four kind of basic. things that the ILO says we can do. around the country. And they like you. said at the very beginning, they're very. pragmatic. They all make sense. >> Mhm. and they would really make a. difference. And the first is uh expand. access to education, uh get kids in school and um get rid of. fees to be in school and. >> uh put them if if they're in a school. situation, they're way less likely to. join the workforce. >> That that's what our friends at Co-ED. do. They they're like helping get kids.

off of family farms and into schools by. removing any barriers between them and. in school. >> Yep. It's all through education. And. it's a great great organization. >> Yep. What else? >> Uh and that's by the way the cooperative. I always say that word wrong. Cooperative for education. >> Yeah. >> Look them up. We've championed them for. years. And we got a little uh. >> a little uh fun thing coming up that. we're doing with them that you guys. might be interested in. So stay tuned. for that. >> Yeah. >> Uh let me see what's the next one. Help. families meet basic needs.

>> Uh this could be a universal basic. income. It could be monthly stipend. But. basically so families don't have to send. their kids out to work to provide at the. you know most basic level. >> Yeah. And a way that you can help that. is through KA um by lending making. microloans to people so that they can. they have the capital to grow from uh. initially. Yeah. >> Um there's also like if you make sure. that adults are getting better wages and. pay and um their rights are protected,

it makes their children less likely to. be forced into the workplace to begin. with because it's not again there's not. like adults the world around saying, you. know, our kids need to be working. because they're lazy. Like their kids. need to be working because they the. adults aren't getting paid enough. And. if you um make sure that you're, you. know, if you're a western company and. you make sure that you're paying. everybody a fair wage, um there's a good. chance that you can eradicate child. labor from your supply chain. >> Yeah. Uh and then the last thing is just.

enforcement. Uh they can put all the. laws that they want on the books, but. unless someone's going to actually work. on enforcement, then it really doesn't. matter much. So, uh, that's really sort. of the last step is, uh, funding for. enforcement. >> Yeah. And Germany actually just passed a. law recently that that demands that its. companies examine do due diligence and. examine their supply chains to see if. there's um, child labor involved and to. do something about it. That doesn't have.

like as much teeth as Human Rights Watch. was saying that they wish it had, but. it's a good first step and hopefully the. way that that you know, progressive. nations will start moving. That's right. Um, two things. Big shout out. I can't. remember uh his name, but the young. listener who is mowing the lawn for his. dad and wrote in to request this. episode. I think. >> Oh, that's right. >> I think he prompted this episode. So, hats off to you, young sir. Uh, I hope. you can kick up your heels for a little. while. And then also, this was indeed a. Dave Ruse joint. So, thanks again to.

Dave for this one. >> Right. That's right. Since Chuck said. that's right everybody, it means it's. time for listener mail. >> I'm going to call this uh I think it's. just thanks. Uh hey guys, writing in. from Louisville, Kentucky to say how. much I love the show even though Josh. said the KFC center was in Lexington. >> I'll never live that down. >> Uh your correction put a smile on my. face knowing that there are other stuff. you should know fans near me. Uh I work. in long-term care and use your podcast.

many different ways. I help people with. cognitive impairments set up their. tablets and such for enrichment, socialization, and stimulation. And one. of the first activities I show them is. how to access entertainment with. educational podcast. Everyone can find. something they want to learn about on. stuff you should know. >> I also help people find ways of. remembering new information and use your. short stuff episodes for those with. shorter attention spans. And finally, my. own enjoyment is a factor. I listen to. many different podcasts during my drive. to and from work, but only stuff you.

should know has the ability to get me. into a different headsp space. Uh, I. attribute that to Josh and Chuck. None. of these topics would be nearly as. interesting without you guys. I've cried. and laughed sometimes both. All in all. of your episodes, even the really mathy. ones. Uh, I feel you on that one, Chuck and. Josh. >> Yeah. >> Oh, that was a dig. >> That wasn't a dig. Are you math guy? >> No. I don't know, but I I like to think. I am. >> Okay, sorry about that. Uh, the episode.

on snake handling is a personal. favorite. I appreciate and absolutely. love the show and everyone that works on. it. Thanks for keeping it going. I hope. to see y'all in Kentucky. That is from. Ellie. >> Well, thanks again, Ellie. And uh, if. you want to get in touch with us like. Ellie did, you can write us an email. Send it off to stuff at. iiheartradio.com. [Music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts of. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

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