Richard III: Good Guy or Evil Putz? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And that makes this a good. oldfashioned episode of Stuff You Should. Know. That's right. This is where uh we. well we don't debate because we don't. really do that. But we're going to talk. about the the merits of Richard III and. the people that say that Richard III was. a lousy king and terrible person and.

other people will say no that was. rewritten by people who didn't like him. and he was actually a pretty great king. and we'll get into all that right now. Wow, that's a great intro. Um, so. Richard III is the you may his name may. ring a bell if you're not already. familiar with him because there's a very. very famous play by Shakespeare called. the tragedy of Richard III. And in this. play, Richard III has a hunchback. Yeah. He has a withered arm. He has a horrible.

dark soul at his core. He's a terrible. person. A murderer of children. A. usurper to the throne. And because this. is Shakespeare, you know, Shakespeare, um, that's how everybody's thought of. Richard III publicly or popularly for. hundreds of years. Yeah. Like. Shakespeare wouldn't do a hit piece on. somebody, right? No way. Um, if there. was even one Shakespeare. I was thinking.

back to our episode on on I think it was. like, did Shakespeare really write all. that stuff? That is one of my all-time. favorite episodes cuz I knew nothing. about it and yet there's this huge rich. subculture. Yeah. of people who like. talk about this and investigate it and. debate it. I love that one. Totally. But. Shakespeare did basically write this. this play probably at least in part to. flatter Queen Elizabeth who is the. reigning monarch at the time and he was. a very loyal subject of hers. Queen.

Elizabeth was related to the guy who. took over from uh Richard III after. Richard III was killed before that guy's. very eyes. That's right. And this story. will get a little confusing as we go. back and go through it because there's a. lot of Richards, there's a lot of. Edwards. Yeah. Uh but it's not the. hardest thing to keep straight. We're. going to do our best. But we if in order. to talk about Richard III, we have to. talk a little bit about the War of the. Roses. um which were these bloody civil.

wars fought over the 1400s basically in. England like hey who's in control here. which family has a right to the British. throne uh most of it was between the. house of York and the house of Lancaster. uh whose symbols uh were the white rose. for York and the red rose for Lancaster. there we go with the roses white versus. red yes um that also explains that movie. with Michael Douglas and Danny DeVito. and Kathleen Turner. One of my favorite.

alltime movies. That is a great movie. It is great and holds up. Does it? I. haven't seen it in a while. It's still. so very funny. Okay, so the houses of. York and Lancaster were both part of the. Plantaginate Dynasty. And that dynasty. had been ruling England from 1154 up to. the point where we pick up our story. So. like it was a big deal that these two. houses were waring one another for. control. And an even bigger deal is.

we'll see that somebody who was. basically unrelated to either one would. come in and end the plantaginet dynasty. Richard III was the last plantaginate. king. Yeah. So he was born in 1452. He. was team York. Uh his dad Richard was. the third Duke of York. And it was his. dad who was a big player in the early. part of the War of the Roses. Mhm. Uh in. 1455 he went to dethrone King Henry V 6. who was a Lancaster and that really.

kicked off the Wars of the Roses. I. think I've been saying singular like the. Danny DeVito movie but technically it's. the Wars of the Roses. I I think it's. all combined collectively under the. umbrella the War of the Roses and you. could consider each of these skirmishes. or battles in it. Oh, okay. So we're. right and wrong. Yeah. So, but the the. thing the thing to remember is that. these were incredibly vicious, bloody. battles being fought by ultimately two. different sides of the same large. family. But like the term mchavelian is.

just perfectly used in this era. Like. these people were like, "You're my. brother-in-law. I'm going to cut your. head off because I want to um get this. other guy who's my cousin to the throne. so I could take over my brother-in-law's. land." Like stuff like that. This was. like the the War of the Roses. And to. give you an example of how brutal it was. when um Richard III's father, Richard, the third Duke of York, died. Um he died. in battle and his head was cut off and.

displayed on a pike and they put a paper. crown on it. Yeah. And he was king at. the time. The king had his head cut off. and a paper crown put on because the. other house had won and now they were. the kings. So after uh Richard's father. Richard once again uh died and his head. was put on a pike, his uh big brother. Edward uh I think he had three kids. total um took up the the mantle to take. up the fight and he defeated the. Lancasters at the Battle of uh Toutton. uh in which I think it's the bloodiest.

battle in British history. 28,000. deaths, man. Which is just remarkable. loss of life uh in any war, much less. one in the in the 15th century. Um, so. after that happened, Henry V6 goes to. Scotland. He's like, I'm out of here. And Richard's brother was crowned King. Edward. So all of a sudden, he's King. Edward IV. Uh, the Yorks are in power. And Richard is second in line at this. point behind only his older brother, George. And George is a great example of.

what kind of duplicitousness and. um, maneuvering was prominent in this. era. um he was executed under his. brother's orders by being drowned in a. vat of wine, executed for treason. And. this wasn't like um saying, "I I want to. take the throne." Um he really was. treasonous and plotting against his own. brothers. So like that was just. something that happened in this family. at the time during the War of the Roses.

Yeah, for sure. Um previous to that when. when the Yorks were in power, it was. only for a couple of years. Uh because. in 1469, Henry V 6 was reinstalled. He's. like, I've been to Scotland for a while. I'm coming back because my wife Margaret. of Andrew led a orchestrated a rebellion. that worked. So, thank you for that. Now, I'm back in charge. Uh but then. Edward and both Richard and George. because George was not dead at this. point, right? They came back, defeated. Henry V 6 again, and this was basically.

for good in 1471. Yeah. So Edward IV, Richard's brother, is now on the throne. He has two sons, Edward and Richard. We're going to put. them to the side for a little bit. because it just could not get more. confusing if you try to bring them in. right now. Can we call them Eddie and. Rick? Yeah. Or Eddie and Dick. How about. that? Yeah. Uh, and Edward IV, this is. when he has his brother George um. executed drowned in a vat of wine. Um, and Edward IV died. And I was looking. into it. It's mysterious how he died. He.

just died suddenly. It wasn't violently. He died of some sort of illness. But um. in his will, he named his brother. Richard. Richard III lord and protector. over Edward's son Edward who was going. to now become King Edward V. He was 12. though. Richard III was 30 at the time. And Richard III was like, I actually. think that I would make a better king. Yes, I know that through royal lineage. like Edward V is in line to take the.

throne. He's 12 and I don't really like. his jokes. He's terrible joke teller. I. tell great jokes. I should be king. So, he started to do some maneuvering and. kept putting off the coronation. Putting. off the coronation until he was able to. produce a rumor, as we'll see, that said. um the King Edward V, the 12-year-old, was illegitimate. He his his father had. not born him or his father was. illegitimate and he didn't have any real.

claim to the throne. Hence, Richard III. did and it worked. So, Richard III. became king. Yeah. So, he had to do a. little bit of other maneuvering to get. this done. Uh, at one point he met up. with two of his his deceased brother's. closest adviserss, a guy named Anthony. Woodville and a guy named Richard Gray. And this was like, hey, the coronation's. coming up for this 12-year-old to be. king. And the very next day he had uh. Richard the third had Woodville and Gray. arrested uh on charges of trying to. usurp the throne and they were executed. very quickly along with another close.

friend of his brothers uh William. Hastings. So like he was you know if it. looks as if it appears to look Richard. III was just kind of cleaning house of. anyone from his brother's old team that. would have supported uh the boy king. basically. Yeah. And this was basically. his brother's in-laws that he was. killing off. He didn't want them to try. to vive for power because the mom of. Edward V, the young 12-year-old, she. could have a ton of power and so so.

could her brothers and all that kind of. stuff. So, they were basically like. wiping out the other side of the family. Um, remember I said Richard III kept. putting off the coronation and putting. it off. Well, typically if you're. waiting to be coronated king, you would. hang out in the Tower of London. And. since he was able to keep putting off. the coronation, um Edward V, who the kid. who would be Edward V, um was basically. locked away in the Tower of London. And. like a month or so after he got there, his younger brother Richard, who was.

nine at the time, showed up and they. were kind of compartmentalized away in. the Tower of London out of public view, just held off to the side while Richard. was doing his maneuvering. Yeah. So, while this is going on, these two two. boys in line in front of Richard III are. basically hidden away in the Tower of. London. And all of a sudden, the Church. of England says, "You know what? That. marriage wasn't even legitimate. Uh, King Edward IV, your older brother, and. his wife, uh, Elizabeth, uh, it was an.

illegitimate marriage because Edward, um, I think there were a couple of. things. One was Edward had supposedly. been engaged to another woman when they. married, which would be bigamy at the. time." Mhm. Um but didn't they also say. that Elizabeth had a previous um. marriage or something like that? No, they said that Edward IV and Richard. III's father, right? That he had had an affair that. bore Edward IVth. Yeah. Yeah. But. Richard III was a legitimate. So he was. saying like my brother wasn't even a.

legitimate king while he was alive. So. his sons definitely aren't. I am though. cuz my parents bore me legitimately. And. um so there were two illegitimate rumors. that were being bandied about at the. time and I guess one of them got picked. up on by the pope I believe who said, "Yeah, we're we're we're cool with. this." And an act of Parliament was. passed that basically said Richard III. has gone now from Lord Protector. He's. now king because he's the legitimate. heir to the throne. Right? And that was. June 26, 1483.

Uh, and maybe we'll take a break and. talk about what happened to these boys. Yeah. Yeah. I need to take a breath. All. right. We're going to figure all these. uh Dicks and Eddies out and we're going. to come back and talk about it right. after this. [Music].

[Applause]. [Music]. So, Chuck, you asked before we left, what happened to the two princes? That. is one of the greatest mysteries, one of. the greatest unsolved mysteries in. English history. Still today, we don't. know what happened to them. And there's. a lot of great um answers and there's.

evidence that suggests one way or the. other, but there's nothing definitive. So, we can't really say what happened. But all we know is that while he was. sequestered, that was the word I was. groping for earlier, while he was. sequestered away um or while they were. Edward V and his younger brother Richard. um they like they were seen increasingly. less in public, usually walking around. the grounds of the Tower of London. because they were basically being held. hostage until I think in the fall of. 1485. They just disappeared from public.

view. No one ever heard of them again. as far as the historical record is. concerned. Yeah. I mean, the Spin. Doctors even wrote a song about it. Yeah. I mean, and they gave some pretty. great advice. I agree. Uh Oh, now that stupid song is going to. be in my head. It's been in my head for. a while. Has it really? Yeah. Because of. this episode. Yes. Oh, I didn't even. think about it until two seconds ago. So, you you were on that already? For a. long time. Yes. In my head.

So, uh, like you said, they were last. seen summer of. 1483. Uh, of course, they're the, you. know, we'll just call them team anti-. Richard. Uh, they were the ones that. were saying like, "This guy clearly. murdered these boys." Uh, and everybody. knows it. Uh, he got his henchman, Sir. James Terrell, uh, to do so. Uh, in. Shakespeare's play, he whispers to that. henchman, "Come to me, Terrell, soon at. after supper, and thou shalt tell the. process of their death." So Shakespeare. certainly bought that. Yeah. And we.

should say Shakespeare wrote the tragedy. of Richard III about a hundred years. after Richard died. Um and the the idea. that Richard III murdered directly. because if he if he if they were. murdered he almost certainly did it. himself. A lot of people argue. Other. people say yes, Sir James Terrell. probably had somebody do it and the idea. is that they were smothered with. pillows. Um, but this idea doesn't pop. up in writing until after Richard's.

death. And the whole idea is is that he. he had really great motive to kill these. kids. Um, because they even if they were. illegitimate, they could go off, grow. up, train. Um, there would probably be a. montage of some sort as they're training. and they could come back and try to. topple him from the throne um through. battles and violence. and he was just. wiping out this, you know, future. challenge to his rule. He was not the.

only one who had that motive. There were. a handful of other people around at the. time who had just as good a motive of. wiping those two kids out for the exact. same reason. So, that alone is not. that's not like the most damning. evidence. Yeah, I could see the montage. Was that two princes? Yeah, you know. that one part where he's kind of. scatting. Yeah, that was good actually. So, the. montage could have happened for sure.

Uh, if you are team Richard, they will. likely say, "Man, there's no way he. would have been fool enough to do that. He didn't kill those guys. Maybe he. moved them up to the north and hid them. away uh because he wanted them to be. safe or something." Uh, but Richard. never said anything about it. Uh there. was no evidence for centuries, like. literal evidence tying anything there. But fairly recently, there was a British. TV historian that discovered a will that. included a necklace that belonged to. Edward V, the boy who would be king.

Mhm. Uh this will was drawn up 33 years. after he disappeared and it belonged to. a wealthy London widow named Margaret. Capel who just so happened to be the. sister-in-law of that henchman, James. Terrell. So, the man who either possibly. murdered those two guys or at least was. in on the plot uh ended up with this. necklace that was given to his wife 33. years later. So, it's not like, hey, this is literal evidence, but it's it's. pretty shady. It is, especially if you.

combine it with other evidence people. have generated over the years. Um, but. can we talk for a second about why we. don't know any of this from the murder. mystery to whether they were legitimate. or not? Yeah. I mean, one reason is just. that history wasn't recorded the same. and there's just a lot of stuff that. wasn't noted at the time, right? Yes. That's part of it. I read also that the. tutors when they took over after killing. Richard III destroyed a lot of the um. plataginant um like documents in.

England. Um and then also there's not a. lot of historians working at the time. Luckily, there were a couple of. chronicles that were created. One was by. a monk named Dominic Mancini or. Manchini. He happened to be in England. at the time while this was going on and. went back to to Italy and wrote about. it. So he had a pretty good and what you. would think impartial chronicle of the. whole thing. He didn't really have a dog. in the fight. And then there was. something else called the Crolin. Chronicle which was a chronicle that had. been added to over hundreds of years by.

some local monks at a nearby abbey. And. these two don't always agree. Sometimes. they contradict each other. Sometimes. one talks about an event, the other one. doesn't mention it. So you can kind of. piece it together. But like if you take. Edward IV's will for example, where he. made Richard III Lord Protector, that. will is gone. We don't know if Richard. made that up. We don't know what the. deal is without firsthand evidence and. sources, primary sources. All of this is.

essentially conjecture and up for. debate. Yeah, for sure. And that's, you. know, that's why people still debate. this stuff today. And there's, you know, pro- Richard team and anti-chard team. Um, as far as his rule, he only ruled. for a couple of years from 1483 to 1485. And this is again where people will. debate what kind of king he is because. some people will say that he, you know, he fought for the rights of the poor. He. only convened one parliament uh that he. used to p pursue like some pretty. progressive um agendas for the time like.

um presumption of innocence was created. under his watch and universal prek. Yeah. That's right. Uh, a lot of his. rule was pretty tragic, though. There. was a lot of war. Um, one of his closest. allies ended up turning against him. The. Duke of Buckingham um, switched over and. aligned with the Tutors, Henry Tutor. specifically. Uh, they were a different. family who had this, you know, they had. a they said they had a claim to an. ancestral line that was, uh, I guess to. our modern eye seems fairly vague, but.

back then it seemed important enough to. go to war over. Yeah. The L the. Lancasters were basically like looking. anywhere for somebody who had a. legitimate claim. So they went to like a. cousin's cousin's next door neighbor's. friend's dog's brother to find Henry. Tutor who you could c connect the dots. to the throne. So he did have a. legitimate claim, but he was like you. said essentially a different family. He. he was just barely a Lancaster. He was a. tutor. Um, but this is who they brought.

to bear as a claim to the throne to. challenge the Yorks in the form of. Richard III for this throne. And his. former friend, the Duke of Buckingham, um, they staged the Buckingham rebellion. and it just got squashed almost. immediately. So, within months of of. being coronated, his rule was challenged. right away, but he managed to to get rid. of that and I think another one and hang. in there for a couple of years before. fortune turned against him. Yeah. And. you know, he also had personal tragedy.

Uh, a few months after that, his only. child, Edward, uh, died. His wife died. not long after that. Uh, and then Henry. Tutor comes and knocking again. He goes, "You might have stopped me once, but. you're not going to stop me again." And. on August 22nd, 1485, uh, they went to battle again at. Bosworth Field outside of Leicester. And. this is where Richard as king uh, fought. and was killed in battle. I think the. last English king to actually die on the.

battlefield, right? Yes. But he was the. last king and he um by all accounts died. in a a pretty brutal way. Uh if you. consider like, you know, blunt force. trauma and and head damage to be a. brutal way to go. And I do. Yeah. So, uh, as we'll see, they found his skull. and, um, they they examined it and found. that he had not one but two potential. death blows delivered to his head. One. was a sword thrust. So, imagine sticking.

a sword into somebody's head, through. their skull, and into their brain. That. happened to him. And then somebody came. up with a pike or a halird, which is a. very sharp axe on one side and a point, very sharp point on the other opposite. the ax blade. And apparently a pikeman. came up and cut off essentially the. lower part of his skull and took a big. chunk of his brain stem with it. So. either one of those, whichever one. happened first, killed him virtually. instantly. That was not the end of the.

um the torment to his poor body, though. No, they uh he didn't get the head on a. pike with a paper crown. They instead. stripped him down nude and paraded him. through town on a horse. And uh. apparently people were like, you know, jabbing and stabbing at his at his body. on the horse and he was literally had. stab wounds in his butt. Mhm. Um he was. buried uh his historically speaking, he. was buried in a place called Gray. Friars, a Franciscan church in. Leicester. And other people say no, it.

was he was exumed by a mob. They threw. him into a river. And that was sort of. uh we'll get to that, but it was I guess. we've already ruined the fact that it's. not a mystery anymore, but it was a. mystery for a while. It was. And we. should say when he was buried at. grafires, too. It was hastily. Um there. was like I saw that he was basically put. in a a shallow grave that his legs were. sticking out of when they finished. So. they had to break his legs to like put. him in there. Um like it wasn't it was.

the kind of grave that could very easily. be lost to history. So, um, uh, Richard III is dead. He's. just died in battle. Apparently, Henry. Tutor is crowned, King Henry VIIIth on. the battlefield. They took the crown off. of, um, Richard's dead body and put it. onto Henry. So, there's now a new, entirely new family running the show, the Tutors. Um, and almost immediately. they they started a propaganda campaign. against Richard III.

um that culminated later on in. Shakespeare. Um like I said, Elizabeth. was a um a relative like granddaughter I. think of uh King Henry V7th. Um so he. was trying to basically curry favor show. appreciation for her. But long before. him, I mean basically overnight they. started slamming Richard III, I think is. what it's called, slamming him. Yeah. The earliest like historical records we. really have on Richard III um are from.

that tutor period. They are not. flattering at all. Uh one guy named John. Rouse um he was a guy and this is kind. of pretty decent evidence that it was a. smear campaign. He was a historian who. wrote about him before and after his. death. While he was alive he was saying. great leader. Uh he helped the rich and. the poor. I'm up with King Richard. Um, after Henry VIIth and the Tutors take. over, he's like, "No, actually, he was a. monster and like maybe a literal monster. because he was born at two years old. He.

spent two years in the womb. He came out. with a full set of teeth. He had hair. down to his shoulders. He was. excessively cruel. Uh, he's basically. the antichrist." And he actually used. that word. Uh, then a guy named Sir. Thomas Moore picked up where Rouse left. off. Um, he was alive when Richard died. He was only 8 years old though, but he. was a close adviser to Henry VIIIth, that tutor king. And he wrote that. Richard was a malicious, wrathful, envious uh person from before his death, ever perverse. Uh said he was, and this.

is where you you get the idea of him. being, you know, deformed or something. Uh what we would now call, you know, like a body physical difference. Um he. was little of stature, ill-featured of. limbs, crooked backed, his left shoulder. much higher than his right, hard favored. in appearance. Yeah. And also, so if. you're like, why are they picking on. this guy's appearance? At the time, physical differences were equated with. moral failings, right? So if you had a. hunched back and a withered arm, it. meant you were really dark on the.

inside, like your outside reflected your. inner self. Um, and Shakespeare relied. very heavily on Thomas Moore's account. But Chuck, I think the fact that the. tutors found it necessary to launch a. smear campaign immediately. against Richard III to me strongly. suggests that he was not hated and. feared and considered a cruel monster. while he was alive. I agree because. otherwise they'd be like, "Hey, we're. good. Everyone hated that guy." Exactly.

Uh, I was just thinking how awful it. would have been. I mean, up until. recently, really, but back then, if you. had some sort of physical difference, you were just born a certain way for. people to think like that means they're. like an evil, awful person on the inside. as well. Yeah, exactly. Good lord. Until. like the 1990s, basically it was like. that. Uh, I did want to mention quickly, I saw the Goodbye Girl the other day. Uh, the Richard Drifus movie. Um, the. Neil Simon movie. Okay. Whose movie was. it? Well, Richard Drifus starred and.

Neil Simon wrote it. Okay. Uh Marcia. Mason was in it too there. It's just a. classic film. But uh Richard Drifus very. famously is is in New York to play. Richard III and is trying to do this. very very strange uh or he's sort of. forced into doing this very strange uh. portrayal of Richard III after he was. ready to play it straight as an already. weird Richard III. Oh yeah, I've got to. see that then. That sounds great. Neil. Simon's wonderful. Oh, it's such a. classic film. I love it. back when. somebody like Richard Drifus could be a.

leading man in Hollywood. Another movie. I have not seen, but I want to is a. documentary that Alpuccino made because. he's apparently a huge Shakespearean and. was basically obsessed with the tragedy. of Richard III. So much so that he made. a documentary about Richard III. Have. you seen it? Oh yeah, I saw it in the. theater. That's when I was living in New. York. So or New Jersey, so I saw it in. New York. Yeah, it's good. Very good. I. will see it then. If Chuck says very. good, everybody that means see it. So, um, Shakespeare's play, like you.

said, was hugely popular. So, this was. really the image that we were stuck. with. Um, maybe we should take our. second break. Let's do it. All right. Well, we're going to come back and talk. about people that tried to to redo that. redo right after. [Music]. this. All. [Music].

[Applause]. [Music]. right. So, I mentioned that people came. to redo the redo of Richard III's. reputation. Uh, they are called. Ricardians. And this happened in 1924. where a group of people finally stood up. and said, "You know what? We're tired of. this rewriting of history. We're going.

to form an actual society called the. Richard III society. And our goal is to. redeem his reputation." Uh to quote. strip away the spin, the unfair. innuendo, tutor artistic shaping and the. lazy acquiescence of later ages and get. at the truth. End quote. But you have to. imagine a 1920s British aristocrat. saying, "Right, well, yeah, that was my. best job." This uh this group uh is. known as Ricardians informally. Um this. group has chapters all over the world. particularly in parts of the world that.

England has touched like uh Canada, the. United States, Australia, New Zealand. and of course in the UK there's plenty. of them but they are really dedicated to. this. If you go on their website there. the the essays and the articles that. they have are really detailed. So much. so that I would almost advise them to. maybe. dial it back just a little bit for the. average person. It's it's it's a lot uh. because they're so intensely into it and.

this this era was so intensely. complicated and complex. Um but it like. they are very much dedicated to. reforming his image. Apparently they'll. hand out pamphlets that are critical of. the tragedy of Richard III at. performances of the tragedy of Richard. III. like they're they're rabble rousers. when it comes to Richard III's. reputation. You know what would be funny. is if you went to the website and it was. like one of those uh early as it's like. black background with like shaking pink.

letters and it's got the spin doctors. playing in the background. with comic sands of course. Uh so that went mainstream in the 1950s. because of a book. Uh it was a very. popular detective novel called A. Daughter of Time in which they reimagine. the disappearance of the two princes as. a modern murder mystery where Scotland. Yard gets involved and Scott Lanyard. says Henry VIIIth was the guy who. murdered these two boys. It wasn't.

Richard III. was a very big book uh. bestseller in fact and it kind of helped. shape the narrative starting or reshape. the narrative I guess starting in the. 1950s by saying stick it Shakespeare. Yeah, it was really critical of received. wisdom in general. Like this um Scotland. Yard inspector who's laid up in the. hospital is just amusing himself by. solving this cold case mystery comes to. the conclusion that he can't show at all. that Richard III was responsible. And in. fact, he thinks it might have been Henry. VIIth andor his mother who killed these.

kids because remember I said a lot of. people had a reason to off them or get. them out of the way. Um, and along the. way this detective is very critical of. historians um, and how they just. basically will rely on rumor and. unsubstantiated stuff as fact and that. becomes history. And this really changed. people's views um about historians and. history, but also especially about. Richard III. And that was the thing that. really kind of turned the tide for him.

somewhat. Yeah. Somewhat. Uh the other. interesting thing, and this is where uh. like again, we we sort of gave it away, but um there was a mystery for a long. time of what actually happened to. Richard III. Uh was that body really. buried? Was it tossed into the river? uh. when a a really well-balanced biography. came out in the 1950s from Paul Murray. Kindle uh called Richard III uh a woman. named Philippa Langley read it and got. very interested uh she's a historian and.

a screenwriter obviously a Ricardian and. she was like I want to figure out what. happened to this body that's still the. mystery of what happened to Richard III. and so I'm going to get on the case and. sort of mountain amateur which turned. into you know sort sort of a. professional investigation. She's going. to sniff them off the case. Sniff them. off the case. I still after all these. years do not know how to use that. correctly in a sentence. It's always. correct. That's the beauty of the. phrase. Oh. Oh, good. Good. I love it. even more now. Yeah. So, her whole thing.

was to basically use like cold case. investigative methods like the fictional. detective did in A Daughter of Time um. to finding where Richard III's body was. And by this time, historians had. basically narrowed it down to a handful. of blocks um in the downtown part of. Leicester. Like they knew Gray Friars. was a real place. There was a really. good chance that he was in fact buried. at Gray Fryers after his death. And um.

even though grayfires have been. demolished like 50 years after Richard. died, there were still historical. recordings that it was generally in this. area of downtown Leicester. One of the. areas was under an apartment building. Just so happened that that apartment. building was demolished at some point, I. think in the early 2000s, 2007, and they. were able to excavate beneath it and. found no evidence of grave fires. So.

basically, attention turned to the. parking lot. And when they turned to the. parking lot, they found Philip Langley. standing there saying, "I've been. telling you for 2 years now that this is. where this guy's buried. I just know. it." Yeah. I mean, she had been there in. 2004 and 2005. And I I guess just had a. feeling like he's under this this frigin. parking lot. I'm telling you. Yeah. Except she didn't say friaking because. she's from England. She said fracken. Fracken. That's right. Uh, so she. approached the University of Leicester. and said, "Hey, how about this? I think.

Richard III's over in that parking lot, uh, under that parking lot. Why don't we. excavate that thing at at great cost uh, and it's going to be expensive and it's. in the middle of a big city and probably. won't find, but I feel pretty sure that. we will, but um, other people are saying. that there's no way." And the University. of Leester said sure. Uh, I think she. was pretty doggedly persistent. Yeah. took a few years and a lot of calls and. a lot of meetings but finally she got. the permissions uh she won the support.

of the city council even uh those. Ricardians uh the Richard III society. chipped in thousands of pounds to make. this happen. Uh University of Leester. also pitched in a little bit. They. finally had enough money uh £5,000 to. rent a ground penetrating radar system. to survey that parking lot and they went. something's down there you guys. Yeah, there's a somebody wearing a t-shirt. that says gray fryer. So, I think this. is the place. I I fought in the war of roses and all I.

got with this lousy t-shirt. Um, I don't want to gloss over like what. Philip Langley contributed. She really. got this thing going. Like, I don't. think she's the one I don't think the. University of Leicester would have done. this ever had it not been for her. Um, she obtained permits to do this dig. Like, she really went to town, but she. wasn't an archaeologist. The University. of Leicester had archaeologists. after. that ground penetrating radar, she was. like, I I'm telling you, I told you. guys, let's dig here. So then on August.

25th, 2012, they started that dig. And. this was it's a you know, a car park, a. parking lot. It it's big enough that if. you're excavating it with brushes, like. toothbrushes and dental picks, it's. going to take you a while. The longer it. takes, the more expensive it's going to. be. So they dug in for a a really long. dig. Within hours they discovered. Richard III. Yeah. Or, you know, they. discovered a skeleton. And they.

excavated the rest of the area. They. found, all right, this is definitely uh. beneath the the former Gray Friars's. church here. And so everyone's getting. pretty excited at this point. Yeah. Uh a. few weeks later, September 12th, uh they. finally call a press conference and they. say, "Everybody, we have a skeleton. that's an adult male in his 30s. Richard. died at 32. Uh it's got severe curvature. of the spine uh that looks like. scoliosis, which you know is consistent. with maybe one shoulder being higher. than the other. Uh had some serious head.

trauma, looks like a death blow to the. head. And the the date, you know, matches the historical record. So, we. are pretty sure we have Richard III. here. Yeah, it was a it was a big deal. There's a a good movie that came out in. 2022 called The Lost King. It's about. Philippa Langley and this this Oh, I. didn't know about that. It's really. good. Steve Kugan plays her husband. Um, it's a great movie. Um, but it's. definitely it's based on her book. looking the that's based on her project,

the Looking for Richard project. So, it's very sympathetic to her and it's. very critical of the University of. Leicester. Um, and it it really kind of. became prominent in the movie at least. at this press conference where she. showed up expecting to be part of this. whole thing and she was just sidelined. from that point on by the university who. held this huge press conference, really. well done press conference and um they. announced this to the world. This was an. enormous deal especially in the UK. obviously. Um, and then I think just a.

couple weeks after that or within the. next several months they um did some. more tests. These were DNA tests and. they were like they held another press. conference. They're like, "This is. definitely Richard III." Yeah. I mean, it was one of those 99.9%. uh certainties basically through DNA. They they got him. They found him. Uh. some people say they called it the. luckiest archaeological dig in uh. history, which to me sells like uh sells. her a little short because she did a lot.

of good. It didn't seem like luck to me. She literally found the place and said, "Dig there." That's not luck. That's. like good work, I think. Sure. I mean, they did say it was like a one in a. million thing, but again, I don't know. Call it a great discovery, but when. someone says, "I think he's buried under. this." And he is, that's not luck. That's right. That's guidance. That's. selling her short. Who played her in the. movie? Sally Hawkins, I think. I don't. I'm pretty sure that was her name. I. love Sally Hawkins. Oh, good. Then. that's who it was.

Wasn't she the Shape of Water? That that. weird movie? I did not see that movie. Oh, well, it won the Oscar and it was a. little weird, but yeah, that's that's. Sally Hawkins. I love her. She's great. Okay. Well, then you would like this. movie even more now because she is great. in it. She was in the Paddington movies, which are fantastic if you haven't seen. them. I saw the first one in the. theater. Yeah, the second one's even. better. Oh, really? Yeah. I was not. expecting that, Chuck. Yeah, it was it's. like one of the the sequels outdid the. first kind of things like uh Well,

there's not many, but Yeah. So, you may. be sitting there, especially if you're. genealogically minded, and be like, "Well, h how did they know? How did they. do a DNA test on the skeleton? Like, did. they swap its tooth and then its toe and. compare him?" No. There was a a group of. genealogologists who got to work. tracking down descendants of Richard. III. His only son died long before he um. he could have had kids. So, he had no. heirs whatsoever. So, this was a bit of. work. And they tracked down two. different people. One guy was in Canada.

and they said, "You are definitely a. direct descendant of Richard III. Can we. stick this cotton swab in your mouth and. swirl it around for 30 seconds?" And. he's like, "Do I get anything else?". Like, "Uh, can I be king?" They're like, "We've brought this Richard III tote bag. as a thank you gift." Right. And he. said, "What's in it?" And they're like, "Nothing. It's just the tote bag." Yeah. With a swab. Put that in your mouth. So, uh, yeah. I mean they they they they. tracked down a relative and made that.

certainty uh certain which is just. remarkable. I mean that's DNA changed. was just such a game changer for. everything. There was always so much. guesswork before like hey we're pretty. sure but now with 99.9% certainty like. they they found their guy even without. it. I'm not quite sure what they found. that was incontrovertible evidence that. it was graffers. Um but if they had. found grapefruits and then they found. this skeleton Yeah. killed in battle. obviously scoliosis spine had who had.

scoliosis um who was the right age like. I think we would still all be like yeah. that was Richard III but yeah the DNA. definitely seals it for sure. Uh they. were able to to give him like a a burial. fit for a king eventually. They had a. big um he was reinserted at Lester. Cathedral. Uh Benedict Cumberbatch was. there. The queen was there. Uh, Cumberbatch read a original poem that he. did not write, but like it was it was a. lot of fanfare. Uh, it didn't really I. mean it proved that he wasn't like quote.

unquote hunchback. He may have had. scoliosis, but he wasn't some like. deformed monster. Uh, it did not answer. anything obviously about what happened. to the two princes. It's not like he. they buried him with a, you know, a. confessional scroll that he had written. down or anything like that, right? I. didn't do it. I was framed. Um yeah. So. I think when the remains were found, one. of the headlines of the papers in. England, um uh Philip Langley read said.

referred to Richard the Third as a child. killer. And so she was like, "You know. what? I think I need to come up with. another project now that the last one. was successful." So she's got the two. princes project. Now she's trying to. figure out prove that he did not kill. the two princes and or who did. I think. she published a book claiming that it. was solved and everyone's like, "This. isn't actually solved." But she did come. up with some pretty good evidence that. suggests that those princes made it out. of the tower outside of England and. managed to grow up and were not killed.

by Richard III. That's her new jam. Yeah. But Chris Baron hit him with a. cease and desist and uh shut it all. down. Who? Oh, is that the spin doctor's. guy? Yeah. How do you know his name? I. looked it up. Oh, okay. But that is the. weird kind of musical stuff that I. remember. I just didn't remember that. Emily's always like, "How do you. remember the bass player from Poison or. whatever." Uh Ricky Rouse. That was. Ricky Rocket, guitar player. Bobby Doll. was a bass player. Okay, thanks. Uh you.

got anything else? I'm Richard III. Chuck? Uh I got nothing else. This is a. fun one. If you can keep track of all. the uh Edwards and the Richards, it's. actually not the hardest thing to follow. and super interesting. Yeah, it is. I. love this one, too. Uh, well, since we. both love this episode, I think. everybody that means it's time for. listener. mail. Uh, and you know what? This is. another rare shout out uh because we. want to honor a boy scout, an Eagle. Scout, and this is from Rebecca Joiner.

Hey guys, my son John just achieved rank. of Eagle Scout, and we'd like to for you. guys to come to his court of honor in. Michigan uh this June. uh a tradition in. the Boy Scouts to invite some of their. scouts favorite celebrities to their. court of honor. Uh John is 16 years old, part of the troop uh told her I wouldn't. say the troop on the air, but part of a. troop here in Michigan. Uh he served in. the honor guard twice, spent a week at. the scout ranch, and started a 5K to. support type 1 diabetes in honor of his. brother Bo. Nice. Uh his Eagle Scout. project was to retire over 6,000 flags.

from the Grand Rapids home for veterans. and cemetery. He also cleaned and. organized their outuilding to protect. future flags. Uh, we listen to you guys. as a family at least once a week. And. between you and Joe Rogan, I feel like. he's getting at least a somewhat. balanced view of the world. Please guys, just let me believe. that. So, uh, thanks again. That's from. Rebecca Joiner. And Rebecca, we just. wanted to give a big shout out to John. Uh, congratulations, buddy, on the.

achieving the rank of Eagle Scout. That. is quite an achievement. and all the. work you've done, all the volunteer. stuff you've done is just awesome and. I'm sure you're just headed toward great. things in life. Yeah, it sounds like it. Congratulations, John. Thanks for. listening to us. We appreciate you. Uh. if you want to be like, what's John's. mom's name? Rebecca. Rebecca. And send. us an email about your kid or somebody. you know and love in your life who's. just great. We'd love to hear those kind. of things. You can send us an email to. stuffpodcast@ iheartradio.com.

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