Revenge: Bitter, Not Sweet | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jer here to. you and this is Step you sho the podcast. about Revenge Revenge we've done um an. episode on it was like a top 10 on cases. legendary cases of Revenge oh yeah I. remember that but we didn't talk much.

about revenge itself and I felt it was. high time we've been dancing around it. for decades. now and here we are I thought this was a. great idea so kudos to you because it uh. Dave helped us out with this one and. it's um a lot of like science and. Studies have sort of and I'm not going. to spoil anything but have sort of um. produced results that fly in the face of. what one might typically think about. revenge and what it means for the person.

getting the Revenge yeah I think most. people um how we feel about revenge it. it's from watching movies and it's like. deeply satisfying to watch the the bad. guy who deserves Revenge get get their. comeuppance right sure is or even be. killed just like yes that guy deserved. that kind of thing but in reality. carrying out acts of Revenge. are they just it's not like the movies I. guess is what I'm trying to say and yet.

there's a lot of evidence of Revenge in. real life so much so that the um New. York Police Department came out with a. study in. 2012 and found out that 42% of the. homicides in New York were motivated by. Revenge man so and that actually kind of. um underscores like a problem with. revenge is the when you enact Vengeance. on somebody and you leave them alive. almost.

invariably that person feels like you. overdid what in in response to what they. they did it was disproportionate so now. they have to strike back again and it. can go back and forth until somebody. dies or else somebody can die right away. is the First Act of Revenge but the the. point of the whole thing is is that once. you do carry out revenge no matter if. it's Petty like signing somebody up for. spam or killing somebody in response to. whatever slight.

like road rage they cut you off in in. traffic you don't feel good afterward. you actually feel worse and that's the. underlying point of this entire episode. yeah you know my my favorite Petty I. don't do it but my favorite Petty. Revenge to Witnesses is when and it's so. dumb everyone just settled down is on a. highway when someone uh is on an. expressway and they clean their windows. and it gets all over the car behind them. I see people all the time race in front.

of that person and do the same thing. back to them oh my god really yeah that. is petty that is Tom Petty uh that's not. Tom Petty because Tom Petty was great uh. that's just Petty um and I also wanted. to say too you talked about revenge. coming back harder or whatever uh Emily. has her own personal saying like when. we're messing around and I like I will. do something to her or I'll say. something kind of mean as a joke she'll. she'll eviscerate me and she calls it.

coming back double she goes I come back. double oh boy she's one of those people. that uh think she gets pushed in a. corner and is and man she comes out hard. so it's uh it's a good trait I think and. and one to be wary of at the same time. yes I'm suddenly way more wary of Emily. than I was before luckily I've always. stayed on her good side yeah you. wouldn't come at Emily anyway you're. smart no so. um there's a lot of questions revolving. around Revenge um if if the if we know. for a fact it feels good to think about.

but then feels bad to do mhm despite the. fact that when we're thinking about it. we're like this is going to feel good. it's not the act of thinking about it. that feels good it's fantasizing about. how good it's going to feel to get that. person back to set the universe right. again to do all sorts of things that. Revenge allegedly does and it turns. out when you carry out an act of Revenge. you playing the chump to Evolution MH on. behalf of society is a whole and that's.

kind of like the whole basis of of. Revenge there's a an evolutionary. Instinct that's very very old it's found. extensively in the animal kingdom and it. really collides with the the modern. evolved humans that live in these. complex societies we've formed today. when you put those two things together. an interesting podcast comes out that's. right uh what you're talking about the. animal kingdom is also called. retaliatory aggression and that is the.

idea that uh so let's say um a lion uh. Mama goes out and kills an animal um to. leave for her little cubs to eat uh. another animal is like oh you know let. me see if I can sneak in there and eat. some of that too the mama lion doesn't. just scare this thing off to preserve. that meat for the kids the mama lion. goes and hunts down and kills that. animal yes that's they they come back. double Emily style right I mean like the.

the problem solved the hyena has been. chased away but to leave your kids and. go find it and kill it that's that is. seems Retaliator aggressive yeah and uh. this next one too I'm going to mention. um these are interesting because it made. me sort of question the idea of Revenge. versus punishment right because I think. those are different things but the. reesus monkey we've talked a lot about. their vocalizations like uh they're all. about the group or they should be at. least and like when they find food let's.

say they will tell everyone hey I found. food but if a reesus monkey is ever like. you know I'm going to have a little bit. of this first before I call out and if. they find that out there's a punishment. for that Reese's monkey I don't think. they kill it uh but there is a. punishment uh and this is the idea that. these retaliatory aggressions are. deterrence it's like a punishment uh for. everyone to see to prevent future. transgressions like hey did you hyena. see that did you other reesus monkeys.

see that uh so that you know would be an. advantageous thing uh evolutionarily. speaking so that Gene gets passed on. yeah because the more the more you're. prone to do that the the likelier you. are to not have food stolen from you for. your kids the likelier it is for your. kids to survive and and your lineage to. survive so it makes sense evolutionarily. speaking this retaliatory aggression. does at least right yeah which I would. still argue as punishment more more than.

revenge I think there's an emotional. component that's missing but we're we're. getting to that absolutely I think. you're absolutely right and there's a. there's a story a couple of stories of. tigers actually engaging in what can. only be described as Revenge um and it's. very much up in the air whether what. we're witnessing is actual Revenge but. like like there was a um a a very famous. story out of Russia where like a a. poacher not only shot um a tiger but. also took some of their kill and that.

the tiger tracked the guy down found his. his little lodging destroyed everything. he could find in the lodging and then. waited outside for the hunter to come. back and then killed him and that the. tiger managed to hold this idea in his. head or I think it was her her head for. up to maybe 24 hours after the the the. hunter shot her um there's there's a. couple of stories out there that seem to. pertain a Tigers specifically that it's. almost like it does contain an emotional. component to it but for the most part. part yes it's it's solving an a problem.

and then maybe preventing future. problems among animals yeah you know one. of my favorite sayings is uh revenge is. a meal best served cold I don't know why. because I'm not a Revenge guy really but. I just I think that is just such a great. saying I just like it you know there's. something about like oh no no no the. real revenge is like when you wait. around for a while oh yeah and then when. you would might not be suspected you. come back and take that Revenge yeah if. you just immediately do it in response.

you're a hotthead and a dummy anybody. can do that but just sit there and. really stew on it and figure out the. best way to really get back at the. person that takes intellect yeah I agree. and a little bit of craziness I I just. have to say all right so now we can get. to the humans as far as evolution is. concerned uh we have that same sort of. uh Instinct uh ingrained in our DNA for. that retaliatory aggression um our. ancestors when they were living living. in hunter gatherer groups was a lot of.

relying on one another obviously a lot. of communication and cooperation and. thus a lot of uh punishing to be done if. people either were Outsiders or people. inside the group didn't cooperate and do. the right thing yes um and so this is. again the same thing what you were. talking about you're um punishing the. person who transgressed you're also. deterring future Behavior and the more. we um became social the more important. this kind of stuff came because we be we.

started depending on other people and so. as a result we started monitoring one. another and that in and of itself um Can. can act as a deterrent in the future. because you know that there's a. Vengeance Instinct and there's a set. amount or set um structure of like norms. and rules and then other people are. watching you to see what you're doing. and you're watching them and that kind. of creates a um an atmosphere of.

Conformity and you can say what you want. about Conformity but if you have a a. large group of people following the same. rules you're you're taking care of a. really basic problem and issue and you. can then kind of evolve more into more. and more complex societies and that's I. saw one person say that revenge is. ultimately what provided the basis for. human civilization and allowed it to. grow knowing that there was such a thing. is Revenge and that humans were capable.

of it totally uh so kind of put a pin in. that for a second uh because we should. talk about this idea of like Sweet. Revenge um that's an that's a word. that's often associated with revenge and. you talked about the fantasy of Revenge. and it's it's you know it's a fantasy. because uh for very good reasons uh if. you are physically hurt obviously or. emotionally or psychologically wounded. by somebody uh you it's a natural.

instinct to think about getting back at. that person right and the feelings that. come with that uh take place in a part. of the brain called the dorsal statom. and it's the same uh part of the brain. that controls the reward system of like. hey that pecan pie tastes great um that. sexual orgasm feels amazing or the the. drug that uh I really want to take feels. good it's that same lizard brain pathway. uh that r lights up that lights up.

whenever you do anything that that feels. rewarding or satisfying for somebody. yeah it's extraordinarily powerful and. hard to deny and overcome because it's. just such an a basic response right. totally but again the the problem and. this is where the tension arises we have. evolved to a way where um we've created. these societies with rules and. expectations that in part say like you. can't carry out revenge it's not okay. and we you know that that's not okay as.

a modern human living in modern Human. Society uh and yet we have that part of. our brain that really powerful basic. part of our brain telling us to do it. and but we know we're not supposed to. and that's kind of like the point in. human evolution that we live in right. now that's right um should we take a. break sure all right that sounds like a. good stopping point so we'll take a. break and we'll come back and we'll hit. on the thing that you brought up earlier. about the fact that actually getting. that Revenge may not be so.

[Music]. [Music]. sweet shut up you should. know. stop shut up you should stop you should. so um Chuck one of the things about. revenge that makes a different from the. drug that you were talking about or the.

orgasm or whatever is that when you. think of it it's more fulfilling than. when you actually do it so like if you. think about a drug you might it might be. pleasurable but it's probably nothing. compared to what the Drug's doing to. your brain when you actually take it. right that's not true with Revenge not. only is um the thought of fantasy of. Revenge more fulfilling and and will um. hit that lyic system harder when you. actually do carry out an act of Revenge.

it actually creates negative feelings in. you as well yeah which is interesting. because like how can an idea of. something how can a fantasy of something. trigger the same Cascades of the other. pleasurable things in your life that. you're actually doing and when you think. about it it it actually does make sense. because Revenge actually taking revenge. is risky uh thinking about revenge. fantasizing about revenge is not risky. per se I mean it could be dangerous for.

you know negative for a person perhaps. eventually uh if you like you become. obsess with it but initially it it's a. feel-good feeling but carrying through. on it can be risky if if you go to if. you're the hunter gatherer group and. someone invades your group and steals. your meat you could go you could just. sit there and think about how great it. would be to get them back and that's. probably the safest move or you could. actually go to that other camp and try. and kill that person but you're taking a. big risk at that point you individually.

are that's right but you're doing it on. behalf of the group or the group. benefits whether you're doing it on. their behalf or not that's right if you. didn't do anything though that group not. just you but the group you're a member. of would seem weak to other groups yeah. and it's it sounds really like um kind. of crom magnant or something like that. but that's it's important you you can't. have like I was saying saying before you. can't have Society without the the.

knowledge that if you transgress there. will be consequences for it I saw um I. saw it put there's a neurologist and. psychologist named Jeff victorov he said. that uh reciprocal altruism which is how. people cooperate between groups and. within groups um that it uh it rewards. and requires a costly signal. demonstrating risk-taking on behalf of. the in group so for people to be able to. trade with one another for people to be.

able to get along in a society and not. kill each other or whatever you have to. know that there's a threat to you if you. transgress it has to be there or else. people will inevitably invariably cheat. or kill you or do whatever and it's a. really basic paranoid way of looking at. the world but if you start to study. Revenge it it seems like it's it's it's. a Lynch pin of society as it as it. stands that there's there's just you. can't have have a society animal or.

human without that that threat hanging. over you of Revenge yeah totally yeah I. got another quote and this is the idea. um kind of supports the idea that uh the. Revenge itself isn't you know it's risky. and it could be bad for you it's really. the idea of it that's uh that's better. or at least better for the individual. this is from Francis Bacon uh a man that. stud Revenge keeps his own wounds green. which otherwise would heal and do well. and that's sort of the the thing that. you know has come up over and over again.

in studies that we're going to be. talking about is that the you know the. path of the Buddha the getting over. things and not seeking revenge is really. the the the path that ultimately will. bring someone. um what satisfaction um Tranquility yeah. Tranquility maybe not satisfaction. actually yeah I think it's getting past. the need for satisfaction that will lead. you to the point that you really want to. get to which is feeling good again but.

like you felt before you were. wronged the thing is is with no wronged. the thing is is with um with Revenge. what what again what you have is an. innate automatic impulse to smash the. other person in the face to get back at. them for them insulting you or your. family or your favorite football team or. whatever it's a it's a really Basic. Instinct that if you can learn to over. come not just you as an individual can.

evolve we as a society can. evolve the thing is is you still need. that for um just to keep Society going. and functioning what we figured out as. further evolved humans that we can. externalize that Revenge Instinct and. imbue our institutions with that where. we've created court systems and Justice. systems they're responsible for carrying. out acts of Vengeance or retribution or.

writing wrongs and in serving Justice on. behalf of the individuals of society and. as society and for society as a whole so. that we don't have to carry out acts of. Revenge on one another and in fact we. have rules now that if you do carry out. an act of Revenge you can be punished by. those same institutions that are there. to to enact Vengeance on your behalf. yeah because what happened is you know. we went from the hunter gatherers where. you literally had to do this for your. group to survive to eventually settling.

down once we became U farmers and. settlers and and eventually urbanites. and those became those same instincts. were there but they became moral codes. and all of a sudden you know we had. these moral codes like you don't uh. cheat on your friend's wife and stuff. like that uh and you know that's not. punishable by death but the that Revenge. instinct is still there to overcome. these moral codes uh there was a. psychologist named her Herbert gintis uh.

that uh talked about revenge seeking as. moral Behavior individuals seek revenge. not when they've been hurt but when. they've been morally wronged um I would. also argue you know some people seek. revenge when they literally have been. physically hurt as well right but but. it's also a morally wronging that. happens if someone you know jumps you. and beats you up at a football game or. something and that's actually um that's. a tension that philosophers have been. trying to figure out for a while um John. Stewart Mill was a fan of the deterrent. uh explanation of Revenge or punishment.

or whatever you want to call it and he. was saying like like with the animal. kingdom when you you punish the. transgressor you're you're deterring. future Behavior by making an example of. them Emanuel Kant said no Revenge exists. because when somebody. transgresses you against a person you're. being morally wronged and just remove. everything else morally speaking that. person deserves to be punished and he.

put it in a really kind of alarming way. but philosophers always operate on the. fringes anyway to make their points. right he was saying that a a. genuinely. um a I guess a legitimate Society even. if it was disbanding it was in the act. of disbanding that they were um they. they they were required to go in and. kill all of the remaining prisoners um. all the all the murderers like go. execute the rest of the murderers just. because your society's disbanding makes.

no excuse whatsoever for the people that. you've imprisoned that transgress. against the society because they. committed a moral wrong that is larger. and more important than any any. individual or even any society and that. they deserve to be punished and that. that's the function of Revenge according. to Kant oh interesting yeah it's kind of. kind of vengeant K was he was serious. man yeah he came back double um you. mentioned earlier you you know we have. systems set up you know court systems.

police forces things like that uh these. days but uh it's interesting that they. found that um historically these you. know places in the world where uh the. cultures were what you would call like a. culture of. Honor uh were more prone to you know. commit acts of violence as revenge like. the American South was uh historically. known as culture of honor where you. would go out and defend the honor or. fight somebody or have a shootout with. somebody um I saw specifically that's. white Southern Culture that um patterns.

of africanamerican Retribution or crimes. like that don't really vary. geographically that's the white American. South is the one that does that yeah. that makes sense uh I mean I think. that's what they're talking about is. sort of you know pre antibellum and. stuff like that uh Middle Eastern. cult uh Middle Eastern cultures uh. historically can uh kind of be the same. way as far as Revenge goes restoring. honor uh and they found and this is what. gets really interesting is that cultures.

and areas that have a history of weak. law enforcement um maybe engage in. Revenge more often uh when you hear. about like Street Justice uh you might. think of um a lowincome community that. maybe mistrust the system they don't. think the courts or the police are on. their side to begin with OR would take. care of them so that's where you're. going to see more sort of Street Justice. Revenge carried out right um and then. same with um workplace environments in. schools apparently three in five school.

shootings from 1974 to 2020 were um acts. of vengance Revenge I'm surprised it was. actually that low of a ratio and then um. if you work in a place where you're. complaints to a management or whatever. seem to be falling on deaf ears that can. also lead to Vengeance in the workplace. like workplace shootings like remember. in our um going postal episode what like. the common factor was that management. was not only like dismissing complaints.

about bullying they were often engaged. in bullying themselves yeah and um like. it doesn't justify or excuse it but that. is an example of somebody carrying out. an act of Revenge at least in their mind. yeah for sure uh you were talking about. philosophers earlier uh now we get to. finally talk about our old friend Sigman. Freud uh and ysf Brewer his mentor. because they had what was known as the. thsis theory of aggression or the Hydra.

hydraulic model uh and this is the idea. is that uh a lot of psychosis or most of. them were repression and it was negative. emotion that was building up and if you. repress these emotions if you have these. negative emotions if you have anger. toward someone or frustration and it. builds up like a hydraulic pump. eventually you're going to pop you're. going to have what's called a catharsis. or uh Greek meaning cleansing or purging. and you will release that in an.

unhealthy way which is probably going to. be Revenge uh Freud said it could. manifest as. hysteria and here's the thing though is. that stuff falls apart when you actually. apply science to it uh they have found. that you know um you know punching a. punching bag can maybe give you an. immediate relief but uh a lot of times. that stuff only serves to work you up. more when you apply science to it yeah. because the basis of the catharsis.

theory was that rather than going and. killing the person who wronged you you. could go hit that punching bag and. pretend the punching bag was them and. you would get out that repressed anger. and feel better and could move on but. yes um starting I think the 50s they. they were like this wait a minute this. is this is not right at all it turns out. that when you do that it just extends. that um the the sour feelings that that. cause you to want revenge in the first. place. and like we said if you can find a way.

to forgive or forget or move on or. whatever you will ultimately be happier. um in the long run and even immediately. compared to somebody who actually. carries out an act of Revenge or even. goes and punches a punching bag. pretending like it's the person they. want to carry out an act of revenge. against yeah uh there's that. psychologist you're talking about RH. hornberger uh one of the studies they. did he would have an actor come in and. like and insult someone in a study can. you just see Ted dancing doing this.

early in his. career yeah you halfwit look at that. nose uh so somebody would get really mad. uh apparently and be instructed to go uh. bang Nails uh hit Nails into a board for. 10 minutes to you know apparently let. out that frustration and aggression bare. fists that's right the other half of the. people just had to sit there and think. about it for 10 minutes and then they. were given a chance to criticize the. person who insulted them and if you. subscribe to Freud in the catharsis. Theory then the the nail Pounders would.

have been you know relieved and their. aggression would have been let out and. they would have been less hostile but. the exact opposite happened they were. even more hostile after they pounded. those Nails toward the actor than the. people who did nothing yeah and that's. um that was hornberger in the 50s it's. still being proven today there's a. psychologist named Brad Bushman who um. made a a slightly more um robust study. of the whole thing but followed. essentially the same methodology where. um you were thinking about whoever you.

wanted to get revenge on while you're. hitting a punching bag or another group. was hitting a punching bag but they were. told to think about the health benefits. of boxing and then the other one didn't. punch anything the third group and they. found that um that the rumination group. was the one who displayed the most anger. um and then the distraction group who. are also punching the bag but thinking. about how great boxing is they were. second and then the last group the.

people who didn't punch anything they. were the happiest they were the least. hostile as a result afterward yeah and. uh you know again we're we're getting. into social psychology territory here. but these people are working with the. best they can while staying within. ethical boundaries like you can't. actually harm somebody but they they do. have ways of of making you um feel. insulted or cheated that's another big. one too and when you're in one of these. experiments you don't know that they're. researching Revenge you think they're.

researching how well you can play like a. game with others or something you have. no idea that that's what they're. researching so there there are some. pretty good models for testing Revenge. without actually putting anyone In. Harm's Way yeah for sure um should we. take a break yeah let's all right let's. take a break and we'll talk a little bit. about uh sometimes Revenge can feel good. and explain those studies as. [Music]. well. oh.

[Music]. go. stop stop you should. go. stop shut up you should stop you should. all right uh before we broke we talked. about the fact that uh Revenge basically. actually undertaking the revenge or in. these studies at least it's not Revenge. but you know letting out that aggression. thinking about the person who did you.

wrong when you punch that heavy bag. really just makes you feel worse uh. Revenge under the right circumstances. can make you feel better apparently. according to the studies of German. psychologist uh Mario I'm sorry he's a. psychological scientist uh Mario. gitza. and this gets a little interesting I. think um he talked about comparative. suffering and the notion that when you. see the person who wronged you suffer.

might restore a balance an emotional. balance to yourself into the Universe At. Large even uh that and his other theory. of the What's called the understanding. hypothesis which is that if the under. the the person who Did You Wrong uh if. they suffer that's fine but that's. really not enough they have to know that. they're suffering because of what they. did to you and that that can actually. bring some. uh I don't know about positive emotions.

but make someone feel good as opposed to. feeling worse yeah and he came up with a. pretty clever um experiment to test. which one was correct comparative. suffering or understanding hypothesis. and uh essentially what happened was the. research participants thought that they. were trying to compete for raffle. tickets with another person who was in. another room they were paired up with. team member yeah a partner and um after. they won all the raffle tickets they. were told that they and the partner. could um divvy them them up between them. and basically all of the participants.

you know cut them in half distribute. them evenly but they found that the. other people had really shorted them on. their tickets their partner had really. kept a bunch of tickets rather than. Distributing them evenly so they had. been wronged in some way they were given. a chance to write that wrong by carrying. out revenge um they were they were. allowed to redistribute the tickets uh. like a second chance and in that case. they almost invariably screwed the other.

person over who who would you know so. they enacted revenge and then this is. where G witzer um really kind of shown. for me um he figured out a way to test. how satisfied those people were with. that act of Revenge yeah there were uh I. think 60% of the people um ended up. shorting them in return uh sometimes. even more than they were shorted to. begin with like they came back double. Emily Style. uh so he went that one extra step like. you were saying and he said all right.

here's what you do now uh you can write. a. note to the person uh and say whatever. you want you can reference the you know. the Injustice so one person wrote sorry. for taking the tickets away and and. remember now it gets a little convoluted. but this is someone who initially was. shorted and then they took Revenge by. shorting the other person maybe even. more right and so they sent them a note. that said sorry for taking tickets away. but unfortunately you only cared about. yourself that's so childish so they.

would write a note many many of them. would write notes like saying I really. want you to understand this is why. you're getting shorted right so then. what golwitzer figured out was that um. he could test understanding uh. hypothesis and comparative suffering by. getting two different kinds of notes to. the people that group of participants. that had carried out revenge and then. sent a note saying I wronged you because. you wronged me and the first note was.

kind of it was like Contrition they were. saying yeah I understand you really gave. it to me because I had wronged you. initially and then the other note was. like Hey you way overdid it I didn't do. it that bad to you I'm a little. indignant and so the if the comparative. suffering was um correct just knowing. that those people had been put out by. the Revenge the retaliation should have. been satisfying enough but what Gozer. found was that that's not the case at. all that um the group that got the note.

back that said man you really stuck it. to me and I'm I feel like a Shmo because. of what I did to you um they they were. far more satisfied and uh than the. people who had just gotten the noteb. back saying like I'm a little indignant. you overdid it so just knowing that they. suffered was not enough they had to know. why they were suffering yeah I think. that's really interesting like. uh I I guess it's the idea of like if.

somebody um and if you're trust me no. one should ever do anything like this it. means you're a truly bad person if you. do but if you engage in road rage and. someone cuts you off and you follow them. to the gas station and like cut their. Tire when they're in the store uh and. leave that wouldn't be as satisfying. scientifically as if you do that and. leave a note that says like you know. this is what you get for cutting me off. right exactly. so so who said something in there uh. that I think is really important too.

that that group who retaliated the. participants when they retaliated they. often distributed things even more. unfairly than their partner had. initially right right right right and. that's something that's a big problem. with the cycle of Revenge that a. researcher named Arlene Stillwell from. State University of New York at poom. pointed out the problem is is that when. you are on the side of avenging your. yourself for a wrong you think that.

after you've done that things are right. again you've you've created equilibrium. in in the moral Universe again but when. you're the recipient of Vengeance you. feel like that person was. disproportionate to the wrong that you. inflicted and so like I was saying. earlier now you feel like you might need. to get them back again and it just goes. Tit for Tat and Tit for Tat and that's. why the the the safest smartest most. highly evolved most Buddhist thing can. do is to just s Short Circuit the whole. thing and let it go and just move on and.

and know yes you've been morally wronged. and you have the power within you to not. do a thing about it and and like live a. happier life than you would if you did. something about it yeah and I think that. kind of holds with um they found some. pretty good research on what's called. impact bias and that's the idea that uh. people tend to. overestimate um how much like one kind. of even sometimes small single thing. will affect their future they.

overestimate it and the example he used. is like a kid a high school kid saying. well if I don't get an A in this class. it'll ruin my chances to get into a good. college and that's probably. overestimating things because getting. into a college is more about this one. class maybe uh or this one test uh but. people underestimate apparently uh like. anger goes the opposite they will. underestimate how hard it is to shake. angry thoughts so you might think uh. that you can get over something by. committing the act of Revenge but you're.

really uh underestimating it and those. those feelings are going to stick with. you even past that Revenge act yeah with. anger in in particular it's its own. thing it doesn't follow the rules of. other emotions right yeah and that is of. course part and parcel with with Revenge. you are angry maybe even hateful and you. have to carry out some sort of Act of. Vengeance right yeah and I think there's. also something to the idea that. um even though you think committing that. act of Revenge will fulfill you um what.

it does in the end is it you've heard. about like you know you brought me down. to your level like if you go and slash. that guy's tire for cutting you off you. know I got you but those negative. thoughts about yourself are going to. creep in because you have now stooped. and done something even worse than. cutting someone off youve you know cost. someone money and ruin their property. and potentially created a a danger for. them you know well even if you were cut. off by the person I've seen people do. this too and you rev your engine and.

catch up to them and cut them off right. so it's literally TI for Tat right. there's no nothing was was done Beyond. it's completely even you're still going. to feel bad about having done that and. it's insane how it. happens like you you are just driven by. this rage this just feeling like this is. what you're supposed to be doing this is. what the universe is demanding you do to. set things right again and then the. moment you do it you feel terrible about.

yourself in one way or another and it is. just such a just such a BS evolutionary. Relic that like you're being manipulated. by genetics at that point yeah at that. moment you're being manipulated you are. a puppet and so the best thing you can. do to control your own destiny again is. to say man that guy cut me off he's a. putts or even better that guy cut me off. maybe he's his leg is bleeding and he's. he's got to the hospital you know there. are a lot of things you can do but when.

you do that you're overcoming your. genetic Destiny and taking it in an even. better. Direction yeah I mean it's tough stuff. man to to follow that path uh for me for. a lot of people I have tried and tried. The more I've the older I've gotten to. try try right it's hard but try to think. like what happened to that person. why are they like that like when you see. someone who's you can tell is a bad.

person not someone who' cut you off in. traffic but right like if you see Hitler. in. traffic no but when you when you know. someone is doing the wrong thing and. someone is just a bad human doing bad. things I try to find some empathy of. like what happened to them that made. them that way what happened to them. today to make them that angry yeah and. and I I try to seek those moments out. it's it's tough though I'm trying too. but. to be real there's a crew of Appliance.

Delivery Dudes who scratch my wood floor. two years ago and their company is. refusing has refused to pay refused to. pay over a year ago yeah and I still am. like should I get those guys back and if. so how like I I well you breing into. their house and scratch their floor man. yeah tip for Tat right yeah but that. also dob tales with that um that idea. that uh TI for t or even better an eye. for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

it's part of that escalation in cycle of. retaliation um which is such a great. quote and everybody attributes it to. Gandhi but apparently it was not word. for word but the sentiment was by a. Canadian named George Perry Graham he. was a journalist and. politician huge fan of um the Raptors no. Gordon Lightfoot oh of course even. though back to GL I think he was. probably dead long before Gordon. Lightfoot was alive I just wanted to.

give a little shout out for Canada's. sake uh well why don't we wrap it all up. with this idea of mutually assured. destruction because it dub Tails nicely. right it does. Chu and here's why to take it away so. the the just as a refresher we've talked. about it before the doctrine of mutually. assured destruction was that if you are. a nuclear superpower say the Soviet. Union during the Cold War or the United. States during the Cold War if you.

launched an initial first strike the. other side even though they were doomed. because your nuclear warheads were in. the air and going to come and kill. everybody there in the meantime they. were going to launch a retaliatory. strike it would do nothing to save. anybody's life on their side it wouldn't. do anything to stop those missiles from. coming it was strictly revenge and the. human awareness of the um the concept of.

Revenge and that that was a very real. thing that the other side really would. do that is what kept people from. carrying out an initial strike during. the Cold War according to mutually. assured destruction Doctrine that's. right oh did I take up the whole thing. I'm sorry you shouldn't be I mean I. think it's I think it's a great way to. end it it's uh for all this talk of. Revenge it's like is that the thing that. has kept Humanity like on the earth yeah. I mean that's that's what some people. say and I mean the the doctrine of.

mutually assured destruction keeps. getting questioned like was that really. what what was keeping things in check or. was there really like behind the scenes. stuff we didn't know about and it seems. like more and more it really was keeping. things in check and it seems to be. because there was a a total awareness. that the other side would kill you just. because you killed them first yeah so. that's Revenge everybody I think if. there was one point to this episode it's. get past it as best you can and if you. can't don't be too hard on yourself just. try again next time yeah try that that.

narrow path is narrow and uh do your. best it's hard we all struggle with it. uh but but see if if the next time you. want to get revenge on somebody in. traffic or wherever uh see if you can. take that narrow path and calm yourself. down and you know there's a really good. chance you're going to feel better about. yourself and the world's going to be a. better place because of it just squeeze. your steering wheel until you bleed from. your palms and your butt cheeks uh since.

Chuck said butt cheeks everybody knows. it's time for listener. mail uh this is a great followup uh. quite a while ago not that long ago but. like last year sometime we or may been. this year I don't know we read an email. about a guy who's had the cussing. dentist oh that was just a few months. ago yeah okay I I have no concept of. time anymore. with uh the guy who's Dennis cuss and we. liked it cuz my doctor cusses and I just. think it's funny and it was a funny.

story about the dentist dropping an F. bomb we got to pull these fing teeth or. whatever M uh and then we get this email. hey guys my name is ginger and I'm a. dental assistant in Blue Hill Maine the. patient came into our office this week. and said my boss was famous she then. proceeded to tell us that she listened. to your show and at the end you read. letters from viewers and went on to say. that the patient wrote in about the. dentist that swears I went back found. the episode August oh yeah here it is. right here August 20 three August 3rd. really wow oh boy that was this.

month well we read it to be fair five. weeks before that okay uh the episode. was the last meal ritual and it has to. be my boss Dr Travis Castleberry who by. the way said it was okay to read this. great uh by any chance did the patient. say who the dentist was cuz my B thinks. it could totally be another dentist but. I don't believe it uh if you could could. you send me an email back so I could. know if I was right he uh so I did look. this up uh the original gentleman did. not give the name of the dentist but he.

was a dentist in Maine W and what are. the chances that there are two cursing. dentists in Maine they're essentially. zero probably zero so Ginger goes on to. say uh he does like to cuss obviously. not in front of kids but he's and he's. not everyone's cup of tea but he surely. is a lot of fun to work with he's a. genuine dentist uh don't know what that. means uh but takes no BS from rude. patients I've worked with him for 2. years and I still love to come to work. every day uh thank you for taking the. time to read my email thanks to our.

patient uh you have a new listener and I. look forward to hearing from you that is. from Ginger the dental assistant of Dr. Castleberry so I almost want to save up. a a cleaning and go see Ginger and Dr. Castleberry sometime why not just book a. plane ride up to Maine and get your. teeth cleaned and then come on have a. swim in their cold cold ocean that email. by the way was Ginger V itis that's you. sorry Ginger oh sorry to everybody who.

hates puns including me uh well if you. want to get in touch with us like ginger. did you can send us an email send it off. to stuff podcast iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart. Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite. shows.