Reggae: Kingston’s Gift to the World | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. [music]. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. She even said Yaman right. before we started recording cuz this is. stuff you should know. Ree edition. >> That's right. Uh, and here's a little. thing you probably [music] didn't even. notice, my friend, is we always clap on. the count of three.

>> Mhm. >> Uh, when we go to record, so we can sync. our sound. Here's a little behind the. scenes for you, everybody. >> Sure. >> But I clapped on the four. >> Did you? >> Just to, you know, make it super reggae. >> That was pretty great. Yeah, because so. what you were doing was skanking. >> That's right. And skank is slang for gun in Kingston. Yeah. >> And Kingston in Jamaica is the world.

capital of reae. It's where I was born. It's one of those things where you're. like, well, where did jazz come from? Where did blues come from? Well, it came. from here and here. No, reae 100% came. from Kingston, Jamaica. And it was built. from all this other stuff, all these. other influences, but there is no. question where it actually emerged. And. that was Kingston. >> Yeah, for sure. I was uh uh playing golf. yesterday with my friend Justin, who who. you know, >> Justin from Trenchtown.

>> Justin from London, >> which will also play a part, but he. asked what we were recording on today. And I told him, >> reae. >> And he was like, "Did you know that reae. is like fairly new?". And I said, he was like, I always. thought it was like in the 40s and 50s. He was like, but true reggae was like. the late60s. >> You make Justin sound like a real milk. toast. I can tell everybody that is not. what Justin sounds like. >> Uh yeah, but that was, you know, that's. true. And we'll get to all that and the.

timeline and everything, but yeah, reggae is a is a I mean, on the general. timeline of music history, it's it's a. pretty new form. >> Yeah. Almost just a little over 50ish. years old. Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm 55. I was born in. 71. So, you do the math. You're the. expert. >> I'm not doing the math. >> Yeah. I think 1968 tends to be like the. year that people pretty much put their. finger on when Reggae was born, but. let's let's talk about all this. Let's.

let's get to the get to the beginning, I. guess. Okay. >> Yeah. Which means we got to talk about. Jamaica as a place, right? >> Yeah. Um because one of the things about. reae Livia helps us with this. So hat to. to to Livia. Um [clears throat]. the one of the things about Jamaica and. Reae is that um they're like a malange. of different people and cultures who are. all kind of brought together uh a. significant number of them against their. will and all kind of formed this society.

where it was all mixed together. And one. of the the things that emerged was a. real appreciation of music and folk. music um that kind of developed and it. was very unique because Jamaica is. unique. I mean every Caribbean island is. unique. Even though they have similar. histories, they all just they they they. form different malanges in different. ways. >> Yeah. Different milanges because you. have indigenous people. Uh and then in. the case of well most of them you had u.

people from Africa brought over in the. slave trade. So. >> in this case in Jamaica uh that combined. with um like African work songs and the. you know the European musical influence. that was there at the time uh they mixed. together and in the 40s and 50s what the. first thing we got as sort of a. predecessor to reaye was called Mento. Uh. >> maybe that's what Justin was talking. about. No, he's talking about Mentos, the the fresh mint. >> Great. >> Uh, capital M N T O, which is um sort of.

like if you heard it, it might sound a. little bit like Calypso out of Trinidad. >> Um, it's got banjo and like guitar. It's. got something called a rumba box um. which is like a a percussive thing with. pluck steel tines. Uh, so Mento was kind. of the earliest predecessor and then in. the 50s, I guess the late 50s and early. 60s because that was the 40s and 50s. Mhm. >> Uh, American R&B on the radio, which. also came from African and European.

influences, obviously. >> Um, that produced what became the more. direct predecessor to Ree, which was. SCA. >> Yeah, that's when things took a really. dark turn. >> Oh man, Scott's I I like all this stuff. I guess we'll talk a little bit about. like our affinity for it, but it's not. the kind of thing I listen to like all. the time, but I have my moments where I. will put on. >> like for an entire morning I will listen. to like old like 50s and 60s SCA and. like super early reeay. I like the early.

early stuff. >> Okay, cool. I can't really fault you for. that. I think I just have a bad taste in. my mouth about SCA from um the '9s, >> the Mighty Mighty Boston. >> I'm not calling anybody in particular. out. I I'm calling all of them out. basically. >> Yeah. But that that early stuff is I. think you could probably appreciate a. little more like the Desmond Decker. stuff. >> Sure. Sure. I'm sure I could too. Um one. of the reasons that that suddenly came. up in the 50s and 60s is because. transistor radio started to become. available and before that Jamaica had.

basically access to BBC style radio. stations that weren't playing R&B. And. so all of a sudden they could pick up. stations from Miami and we're like I. like this stuff. And that was another. thing too that that reae was built on. where um [clears throat] like uh. Jamaican people who are like, I like. this, I'm gonna pull this in. I like. that. I'm going to pull this in. So much. so that like the concept of sampling in. the hip-hop community is actually a lot. of that comes from this kind of mindset.

that was that that reggae was born out. of. It was like, I like this, so I'm. going to use this. >> Yeah, for sure. Like this episode. definitely has some crossover with the. hip-hop episode and obviously when we. get to the rest of our eye stuff, the. highly salassy episode. >> Uh but you know the technology of the. radio was certainly big and also what. was big was and you know you see this a. lot in the development of culture like. different technologies coming along and. in this case just literally electricity. >> being spread throughout Jamaica. >> uh is what led to something called.

toasting. And uh DJs now that they had. widespread electricity could set up. these mobile discos. They were called. sound systems. And this was in and. around Kingston. And the DJs developed. this uh toasting I was about to say. tradition cuz that makes it sound more. like something you do at a wedding, but. >> uh musical style where they would speak. and sing over the recorded music and. that that directly led to stuff like uh. you know rap. >> Yeah. Like, do you ever listen to like. uh reggae shows on college radio or.

something like that? >> Well, yeah. That's why a lot of times I. play on Sunday morning because that's. when album 88's reggae show was, >> right? Okay. So, like and then sometimes. the DJ would just turn the music down. all of a sudden and say something. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> That's toasting, right? And it can be. done well and it can very frequently be. done not well. >> It depends on how toasted they are. >> Sure. Exactly. Or what they have to say. too. like you have to have something to. say that should have to do with the song. or something important. It shouldn't be. like, you know, shop your back to school.

sales at Target or something. >> And then you turn the music back up real. quick. >> Sometimes you hear these guys and it's. the best cuz uh I think uh our our old. uh beloved WFMU in New Jersey. I think. they had a rea. you can hear these DJs are super super. stoned. [laughter]. >> They Yeah, for sure. I mean, they're. probably Rosaf Safarians, and if so, then that's like part of their religion, you know? So, sure, it definitely makes. sense. And even if they're not, if.

you're so into reggae that you host a. reggae show, you probably are stone like. a pretty decent amount of the time. >> It's probably a part of your lifestyle, let's just say, >> right? Exactly. Yep. Um they're like, "Time to put on my game face and smoke. my weekly joint before my my radio. show.". >> That's right. So, [clears throat] um, some some people. were like, "Okay, I like the Scott. stuff, but I get really worn out dancing. to it. Maybe we could slow it down a. little bit.". >> And what came out of that was Rock. Steady. One word. The probably one of.

the best names for any music musical. genre if you ask me. >> Yeah, I'm with you. >> And Rock Steady is it's it has a lot of. the same um components and instruments. and everything, but like I said, it's. slowed down. there's much more of a. focus on vocals. So like there's like a. you know lyrics to the song and the. theme or something like that. And if. [clears throat] you're like I don't know. if I've ever heard Rock Steady, you. definitely have cuz there are some hits. that came out of this apparently it's.

just like a two-year period that Rock. Steady was popular. But the original. Tide is High. >> Ain't No Sunshine as in Ain't No. Sunshine When She's Gone that came out. of the Rock Steady era. If you've ever. listened to the the Upseters, like the. early stuff, really organ heavy, >> everybody sings it once, so the mic. peaks and gets overloaded. Like that is. that's Rock Steady. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and Rock Steady is. what kind of directly led to what we. know as Reggae. And when they started. that sort of heavy thumping bass and a.

little more percussion uh percussive. forward, >> uh that's when reae was kind of born. Um, you know, uh, I know Livia points. out that there were there were some. other kind of, uh, I guess just maybe. unusual influences and one was this. school in Kingston, the Alpha Boy. School. Mhm. >> Uh it was run by it was a trade school. and uh there it was a nun affair and. they had uh [snorts] I keep wanting to. say it's like unusual but maybe it.

wasn't but they had a really great uh. music education program and there was a. nun there named Sister Iggy, Sister Mary. Ignatius Davies and she was just a. big-time music fan. She was especially. big into jazz. >> Mhm. >> And ended up having a lot of like future. reggae like you know not the hugest. stars although Yellow Man did go through. there but. >> um some early like SCA and reae horn. players especially because of her jazz. focus came through her school. >> Right. For sure. Um that Yeah. I had no.

idea about that. Did you? >> No. That's super cool though. Uh there's. also obviously um the Rostafari. uh in influence is significant and. Rostafarianism was around before reae. and reae was actually around before reae. musicians became Rostafarians. Uh, and it was, if you go back and. listen to our episode on Holly Salasi, it was his visit in I think 1966.

that just opened the doors to um to. Rostafarianism and ree being like. >> essentially handinand. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and I thought we had. done one on Rostafarianism, but I think. I put together an article and at the. time you were like, "We've been doing. too much religious stuff." And I I just. tucked it away and it never came back. And then when we covered Yeah. Yeah. This is a while ago. And then when we. covered Highly Salassie, >> uh it basically covered that well.

enough, I think. >> Oh, it did. Okay. Because we definitely. got into it for sure. But that episode. was about a lot more than just that. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> But at the time before his visit to. Jamaica, a state visit, this was an. official visit. Um the Rostafarians even. in Jamaica were seen as just kind of. weirdos. They were on the fringe. They. weren't taken seriously at all. They. were just a strange religion. Um and. then Holly Salasi came and essentially. just by recognizing them, I think he.

awarded medals to some Rostafarian. preachers there. Um he legitimized it in. the eyes of Jamaica. Now all of a sudden. a bunch of people including Rita Marley. are like I Rostafari. Yeah. >> And um that's it like that's the moment. that it spread to uh to reggae music. >> Yeah. And this was in the leadup to uh. their eventual freedom from the. colonizers and their you know the white. supremacist sort of system that they. have been living under. >> that they called Babylon. So that's why.

you hear Babylon a lot in the songs. >> Uh and I mentioned Desmond Decker and. that his you know probably most notable. song is the Israelites and that's what. he was talking about there. Right. >> Yeah. The that came out in 1968 and I've. seen that some people point to that or a. lot of people I guess point to that as. the bridge between rock steady and reae. that song and it's that song you think. it is like whoa the Israelites right. >> oh nice. >> and oh thanks I've been practicing for. weeks. >> at a lower key but you're under the. weather so.

>> yes it's thank you for giving me that. pass but yeah the the song I don't think. it says it necessarily explicitly but. the gist of it is this rostafarian. um idea that the the stolen Africans who. have spread all over the world and their. descendants are the true Israelites. and they are trapped in Babylon which is. white supremacistrun western world. >> Yeah. >> And that through self-determination. and deliverance by jaw uh they will be.

able to emancipate themselves. essentially mind, body and spirit. And. that's what Rostafarianism is about. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and there was a. drummer, a Rustafari drummer named um, they called him Count Azie, but, uh, Oswald Williams. Uh, he played on a. early song in 1958. So, this is like, you know, still predating reggae. It was. a scar recording by the Folks Brothers. called O Carolina. And, you know, we're. going to be mentioning a lot of songs, but if you're in a place where you can.

like cue some of these up, uh, I. encourage it because they're all great. a lot of this early stuff and that's. kind of what I like about it is it. sounds like it was recorded in a ten can. like the recordings aren't the best. quality. >> but it adds a lot of juzj to it I think. >> Nice. Um so uh oh one other thing about. Rastafarianism [clears throat]. too. >> Um so I said it predated reae. I mean, it basically came out of the 20s and 30s. when Marcus Garvey predicted that a a.

emperor would be elected or yeah throw. seated. I don't know what you would call. it when you. >> install an there's going to be an. emperor that came out of Africa and. people were like, "Oh, Holly Salassi, that's him." And so from that moment on, Rostafarianism. was born. Um, and apparently dreads had. been part of Rostafarianism as far back. as the 1940s. >> Oh, wow. >> I had no idea. >> What about white guy dreads?

>> Those came out of the '9s. I blame the. 90s sky revival for that, too. >> Probably. So, huh? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. Uh, that feels like a good. time for a break, right? >> Yeah, I think so. >> All right. Uh, and we will come back. with more on Reggae right after this. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> So Chuck We're back. >> Yeah, let's hear it. Let's This I threw. to you really. I was being serious, >> you guys. Here's another little behind. thescenes thing. Um Chuck and I decide.

on the fly which one's going to bring us. back from break. >> Uhhuh. >> And this time I said I was going to go. and so we came back and I immediately. tossed to you. >> But the reason why I did that um. apparently it was not that great of a. joke. Um is because I'm not super. musical. Like I know reae. out in a like maybe two two notes I. could be like that's a reae song. >> Yeah. >> But I can't mimic it. Like and when I. read about it I I don't have any idea. what's going on. It actually confuses my.

understanding of reae which is dumb. >> Well if you're going to count on me to. mimic reae with my mouth although I kind. of just did with that drum intro. >> Yeah. >> Uh people are probably going to be. disappointed. But, uh, we should talk a. little bit about the instrumentation. because it's it's like you would might. find in a like a rock band, maybe minus. some stuff and plus some stuff. >> Uh, drums, sometimes steel drums, which. I was trying to mimic. Uh, you got your. bass, >> you got your electric guitar, a lot of.

percussion, >> you know, bongos and shakers and stuff. like that. Uh, Bob Marley used some cool. like synth synthy sounds and organ. sounds. Mhm. Uh you. >> on It's my life. >> On what? >> It's my life. Don't you forget. Isn't. that the Whalers? >> Uh I don't know that song. >> Yes, you do. It's. >> Well, maybe I just don't rec Okay. >> Yeah, >> I got you. >> It's a very Cynthy song. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just I didn't recognize. the the rendition. It's just cuz you're.

sick, though. >> Yeah, it's cuz I'm under the weather. [laughter]. >> Uh horn section. Sometimes you might get. in a reggae band. Um but you know I. mentioned earlier that it's the that. rhythm of reae that is kind of maybe the. most distinguishing as aspect of it. Um. it's a four beat rhythm with the emp. emphasis on the sec the two and the four. right. >> Uh whereas traditional rock it's it's. not that. So that's why when you hear. that you know that that chunking rhythm. guitar that that's on the two and.

four and it's you know it's a real. distinct sound. Um, and you know, ton as. we'll see, you know, once they this kind. of transferred over to London, you had. tons of groups like the Police and the. Specials and Madness kind of like. latching on to that that sort of uh two. and the four, you know, it was a very. distinct thing. >> Mhm. For sure. It in the 70s it. definitely caught uh Great Britain by. the um. >> short curies curly. Yeah. [laughter].

And Ireland, too. We can't forget. Ireland ever. We never do. No, of course. not. >> Even if we don't mention Ireland, we. still are including Ireland. >> That's right. >> Well, we should say it separately. because they're not part of Great. Britain. >> We didn't want to We didn't want to rile. anyone up. >> So, um, thank you. That's what I was. trying to get to was you explaining the. rhythm because I I can't I have so. little rhythm that I can't even explain. it verbally. >> Yeah. >> But that's essentially what you just.

said, like that's one of the hallmarks, if not the hallmark of reae. And then. you also said that sometimes they have. horns. I feel like that's one of the. main things that distinguishes reae from. rock steady or SCA is they really kind. of moved away from horns where horns. were really really important to rock. steady and in particular SCA. >> Oh yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. So, um, [clears throat] one of the. other things about Reggae, too, that's. good to know that's easily overlooked if. all you've ever listened to is say Bob.

Marley or maybe even Burning Spear or. something like that. >> They tend to focus more on like. spiritual aspects, self-determination. Um, there's a lot of reae out there that. focuses on violence and crime and. because it definitely emerged in that. context. Um, you've if you've heard Bob. Marley, you've definitely heard of. Trenchtown. Trenchtown is a um. low-income neighborhood in Kingston. Um, I I think part of it's like Shanty even.

It's that low income. >> and you lived in Kingston. Um, there was. a really good chance that one of your. only options was to turn to crime uh to. make a living. And so there was this. romanticization of crime that was going. on in the area at the same time that. reae was emerging in the same area. So. they are kind of um intertwined. There's. also like a real like male it's really. male-dominated. Still today it is. generally a male-dominated music genre.

So there's yeah just it it like. inevitably a certain machismo that's. still that's in the background there. It. might not be always talked about. It's. more dance hall, but in reae even too, there's this idea that, you know, the. man's in charge. It's just how it is. >> Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of um. sort of, like I mentioned, the influence. on hip-hop and a lot of sort of lines. that you can draw. I I think definitely. more women broke through in hip-hop. >> uh than in reae. But this, you know,

this uh violent context of uh the. gangster persona, um a lot of it taken. from American movies in both reggae and. and hiphop. Uh the rude boy culture was. what it was called in reggae. >> Mhm. >> But um you can see a lot of similarities. there. Uh the the actual word reae. probably didn't come around until 1968. Um, it was a song by the great great. Tootses and the Matalls. Uh, Frederick Toot tootses Hibert. There. was a song called Do the Reae R E G- A.

Y. >> Yeah. >> And when asked about that word, uh, he. didn't say like, hey, I invented the. word, but he said that he was replacing. um, the word stragg s. g ae, which was like a raggedy looking. woman. >> Mhm. >> But he said that had a negative. connotation. and it was like a. derogatory term, so I didn't want to use. that. So, I changed it over. And then. there's another story where it was re g.

a y uh which was a dance trend um taken. from the terms for ragged clothing and. that turned into r-g. reggae reggae uh which was about like. fighting or protesting. So I don't. there's not like a a definitive like hey. this is where the word came from but. probably maybe a mashup of those three. things. >> Well there's another entrance too artist. named Little Roy who the same year that. Tootses and the MLS's uh song came out.

1968 he released a song or maybe even an. album called Reggae Soul and he spelled. it the way that we spell it today too. So, it's just completely muddled, but it. seemed to have come around in 1968, the. year reggae broke. >> Yeah. And that a lot of that was thanks. to, like I said, Frederick Toot tootses. Hibbert. Uh, if you want to dial up some. early Tootses and the Molls, it's it's. pretty pretty good listening. They. started out in 1962, obviously Scott at. the time,

>> uh, but their first big hit was in 1968, >> uh, with the song 5456, that's my. number. great tune and they had a a. bunch of you know not they didn't take. over America like Bob Marley later would. because this is the late 60s so America. was consumed with all you know like the. hippie culture and everything that was. going on musically there so it would. take Bob Marley in the 70s to break. through in the states. >> Yeah. But at the same time too, the the. um suburbanites in America in the mid60s.

were into Caribbean stuff like Exotica. and things like that, which is why we. have heard songs like the tide is high. because it did kind of make its way over. here, but. >> like no no one has ever taken the world. by storm at least as far as ree goes. like Bob Mar like he just went he just. became an international icon like in a. very short time even too as we'll see. >> Yeah, for sure. So he's coming up. everybody. Wouldn't that be funny if we.

did a whole episode and didn't mention. [laughter]. just to like that'd be an April Fool's. episode. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh but we you know uh. producers just like all genres like. producers and engineers had a lot to do. with um not all music actually some more. than others um but definitely with reae. uh there was a guy named King Tubby uh. born Osborne Ruddic and he was one of. the guys you know kind of a studio. wizard that was like building his own. hardware to create effects and he was. the guy that first started stripping out.

vocals to create dub plate uh and that's. what the DJs would toast. Yeah. Which, as we'll see, sounds a lot. like hiphop and rapping, right? >> Yeah. And dub music, >> right? And so dub music, [clears throat]. I don't know if King Tubby was the guy. who was credited with actually coming up. with it. There are others. Lee Scratch. Perry is another originator dub. >> Hopton Lewis, who came to be known as. Scientist, um, in my, for my money, the.

best dub musician of all. But the the. thing that these guys had in common was. they were using like recording. equipment, often castoff recording. equipment. Yeah. That they built their. own rigs out of. >> that they were using essentially as. early synthesizers. Um. >> and and it was a lot like how Craft Work. and DVO, who came later, did where it. was like, >> I want to make the sound, but there's. nothing out there that makes that sound, so I'm going to build my own thing. >> And that's what dub music essentially. was based on. was taking reggae and then.

making it into essentially electronic. music with all sorts of effects. >> Yeah, I man I would love I used to be. scared of doing these music episodes. because uh 45 to 50 minutes to. encapsulate a genre is really really. hard. >> But since we've done it a few times, I'm. not as scared of it. And I would love to. uh check new wave off the off the list. at some point. >> That's a good idea. We don't I almost. said the sword. We don't even need to um.

come up with an article for that. We can. just go back and forth on it. How about. that? >> That sounds great. I think you say ish. instead of the sword is what people do. >> Yeah, that's like. >> on the radio or something. >> For sure. Is because I think it's the. sound that it makes when you scratch the. record backwards at that moment. >> Is that it? >> Mhm. >> Oh, okay. >> I'm almost positive. >> All right. So, uh, we're getting to Bob. Marley, but, um, if we're talking about. Lee Scratch Perry, he's one of the guys.

in the early 60s who was working with, uh, the Whalers very early on. Uh, and. he, you know, Lee Scratchberry went on. to. >> have an incredible long career. eventually in hiphop and rock and like. everything else. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but I guess we should talk about the. Whalers a little bit. And if we're going. to talk about the Whalers, we got to. back up a little bit and talk about Joe. Higs. Mhm. >> Did you know who Joe Higs was? >> I did not, but now I'm like I love. seeing the tend like the early tendrils. being like uh tendriling.

>> Sure. There there might have been a. whalers at one point, but they we. probably wouldn't know of them because. Joe Higs taught them most of what they. know about music. >> I think I think I heard of them probably. in the Bob Marley documentary now that I. think. That makes sense because you you. kind of couldn't talk about Bob Marley. without talking about Joe Higs first. He. taught not just Bob Marley how to sing. and how to write songs and um everything. you need to know about, you know, making.

music. >> Yeah. >> He also taught Peter Tosh and um Bunny. Wher. >> um at the same time. So he essentially. taught the Whalers how to how to play. music. Um, so yeah, they might have been. around because I know that Bunny Wher. and Bob Marley were essentially raised. together from childhood as almost. stepbros. and they met Peter Tosh as teenagers in. Trenchtown. Um, so they probably would. have formed a musical act, but they. would have just sucked.

>> Well, Joe Higs was definitely the the. the glue early on and the and the mentor. to them. Um he had a big hit as his as a. singer. >> uh in 1960. uh with uh Higs and Wilson. Uh it was. called Manny O. >> And it was again if you listen to some. of this stuff you definitely hear like. the American R&B sound coming through. >> Like some of this stuff sounds like. James Brown at first and then like that. reggae beat kicks in. Uh, but it was one. of the first, Mano was one of the first. records ever pressed and released in.

Jamaica and sold 50,000 copies and uh, what was this? 1960. So that's that's a. lot of records for back then. And he is. uh, yeah, he's he's the guy that like. all these like teenagers basically were. crowding [clears throat] around just. like uh, sponges to everything he knew. >> Yeah, that was something really cool. about him. Like he was living in. Trenchtown or at least Kingston at the. time, too. and he would teach other. younger musicians like he he took time. to do that rather than just focusing on.

his career and getting bigger and. bigger. He like took his his talents and. helped other people develop their own. talents, right? So, hats off to Joe Higs. for sure just from putting the the um. whalers together. Um, but you mentioned. how the how like a lot of this stuff, this early reggae and and rock steady. sound, you can really hear the R&B. coming through and that's true with. those the early Wher songs, too. Um, if. you go listen to Simmer Down, which came. out in 1963,

>> great song. >> I think they had four albums before they. came out with their actual full reggae. album in 1972. I can't remember which. one it's called, but it's it's you're. just like you can hear Bob Marley's. voice, but it's total R&B. >> It's it's strange. >> They they dress the part, too. Like when. you look at the [clears throat] old like. the early whalers, they were wearing. like the cool like shark skin suits and. stuff and they were like styled out like. the like the OJS or something, >> right? Exactly. Yeah. So, it's a little.

jarring when all you know about Bob. Marley is as a like a reggae icon, you. know? >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, they all met. together in uh Trenchtown where they all. lived. And one thing I didn't realize is. that um Bob Marley's father was a a. white man. Did you know that? >> Yeah. His dad was his name was Norville. uh Sinclair. >> Marley. >> And he was Jamaican. He was a white. Jamaican of English descent. and he was. a army like a British army veteran but. uh was a a plantation overseer basically.

and was in his. >> 60s when he married uh Bob Marley's. mother when she was 18 and so you know. you hear that and you think like oh boy. like is did the worst thing happen? Uh. and apparently that wasn't the case. case. I mean, there was a huge age. difference, and I'm not saying there was. a a balance of power by any means, >> but everything I've read and seen was it. was a consensual relationship and that. he provided financial support for a.

while uh to the family, but he was not. like around much uh after Bob was born. He wasn't like a real father figure. >> Okay, gotcha. Yeah, cuz I hear um white. rural overseer, and I'm like, "Oh, no.". >> Well, yeah. Um, but one of the other. things that was a huge influence in. Bob's life was his grandfather, his. mom's father, >> who was a farmer and herbal healer. And. so a lot of the kind of mystic qualities. or at least interests of Bob Marley that.

just kind of he exudes in a way, you. know, he got he definitely got from. being his grandfather's grandson. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh but as a result of. that um sort of displaced childhood, Barley didn't get to Trenchtown until he. was a teenager. >> Uh spent a lot of time in out in the. country in Kingston uh hanging out with. his granddad like you said. >> And like you mentioned earlier, he and. Bunny Wher, it's the cutest thing. They. like were friends from the time they. were like two and three years old.

>> Mhm. And when Bob's dad died, his mom. moved in with Bunny Wher's dad. >> And they Yeah. They were raised like. like brothers. >> Yeah. >> Super sweet. >> It is super sweet. And they met Peter. Tosh in a gambling hall. I think when. they were all like early early teens, right? >> Yeah. >> I don't know when Bob Marley met his. wife Rita. >> But I do know they were married by the. time Holly Salassie came to visit. Jamaica in 1966. And it was her.

influence. She went and saw Holly. Salassi. I think we said in the Holly. Salassi episode um that Bob Marley. didn't go, but Rita Marley did. And she. came back like, "Guys, >> this is amazing." And um she was the. influence who connected Rostafarianism. with Ree, at least as far as the Whalers. go. And they were hugely influential in. spreading that connection. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and like you. mentioned, it's uh, Catch a Fire in 72. is considered kind of their first like. fullblown reae album.

>> And I think you're right. I think it was. like their fifth record as a group. >> Mhm. >> Um, I like that stuff too. Like I. definitely had a Bob Marley phase in. college. Like literally every person on. planet Earth. >> for for sure. Uh but now like I really. really like that those those early. albums more uh than anything like that I. you know my legend cassette that I wore. out of course in college like everyone. else had. >> Well wait a minute was that um I feel.

like they came out with this a box set. or something like that around that time. and that's what got everybody into Bob. Marley again at that age. >> I don't know. >> Was it Legend? I thought for sure there. was. >> Well, legend was the the sort of. greatest hits for lack of a better word. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, Legend was the one that like. everybody had because those were all. like all the big big songs, >> right? >> But it's it's I really like that early. stuff. And if you go listen like I think. Talking Blues is a compilation, too. >> But that's the one where. >> the songs are interspersed with Bob like.

talking in the studio and stuff. >> and you know it's great. It's such a. thick um accent like you you can hardly. understand them, >> right? Yeah, >> it's it's kind of great. >> Yeah. And even I was reading a quote. from Shaba Ranks about how like. >> Oh man, Shaba Ranks. >> like old dance hall guys need to lay off. of the younger dance hall guys because. they're doing their own thing. >> And the only reason I know that he said. that was from the context of the article. like explaining that he said that.

because they had a block quote from him. >> and I'm like I have no idea what. Shabaranks just said and I wasn't even. listening. I was reading it. I just. could not make heads or tails out of it. >> It's one of my favorite. The Jamaican. accent is one of my favorite accents on. planet Earth. I love it so much. >> It's definitely up there with Scottish. for me, too. >> Uh. you see the uh You ever seen the stuff. on the internet where people be like, "If you want to say this in this accent, say these words in American English.".

>> You taught me to say Michael Kaine, you. say my cocaine. >> My cocaine. No, my cocaine. >> Yeah, that's what I just said. I saw one recently that was very funny, which was if you want to say uh Spice. Girls in Scottish, you say kind of have. to quickly say Space Ghettos in English. >> Let's hear it. >> So like, uh, ask me what I did over the. weekend. >> What did you do over the weekend, Chuck?

>> I went to a concat and then ask me who I. saw. Who did you see, Chuck? >> Um, the Space Ghettos. >> Oh, yeah. That That was pretty dead on. >> Pretty good, huh? >> What did you have to drink there? [laughter]. >> Was it Earninker? >> What' you say? >> I'm a non-drinker. >> You didn't drink any earn brew. >> What is that? >> Remember that's like their drink? It's. like some almost a orangey weird Oh, >> I don't remember that. >> Oh, yeah. It's like iron brew, but they.

spell it like brew. >> Oh, I do remember it. I didn't. Yeah, >> it's uh it's something specific. I liked. it, but it was like you could easily. drink too many at once. >> Yeah, I could see that. >> So, I think is where we were headed. >> Yeah. So, yeah. Um what what you have. when you put together reggae reae music. and rostafarian um perspectives and. outlook and and worldview, that's the. word I was looking for. You have what's.

known as roots reae. And what most. people think of as reggae, what they're. thinking of is roots reggae. Bob Marley. and the Whalers, Roots Reggae from uh. Catch a Fire on. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and you know, Catch a. Fire was 72 and that like we said that. was their first big reae album, but they. actually the Whalers broke up two years. later in ' 74. >> Yeah. >> And most of the like the college got. into Bob Marley stuff and the Legend. stuff is all post uh official like the. Whalers as the Whalers. >> Mh. Uh, and you know, all of them went.

on to do their own solo stuff, obviously. Uh, I think Bob Marley had. six albums after that until, uh, we'll. get to his death in 1981. >> Mhm. >> Uh, but everyone did. Peter Tosh, who. was. >> he was the real deal, man. Uh, he had. some great albums. Legalize it in 1976. is a great one. >> Yeah. >> Uh, Equal Rights A Year Later. And then. um later on in the 80s he had a um a. very sort of uh political album called. Nuclear War that was really good. >> Yeah. I had this Peter Tosh live show.

that I cannot find. It drives me crazy. It just it's like every other show from. that tour exists except for that one and. I can't remember what city it was. >> Um and it was. >> you had a tape or something. >> So yeah, it was like a burn CD. It was. so good man. You could just listen to. that on repeat, right? >> Yeah. Um, but yes, his his lyrics were. and just the whole vibe was way more. militant compared to Bob Marley. And so. I've seen it. >> described as like when you put Marley.

and Tosh together and also Tosh by the. way was the like far and away the most. musically gifted of the Whalers. He. could play all sorts of different stuff. >> He was also a good songwriter too. But. when you put Barb Marley's lyrics. together and Peter Tosh's lyrics. together into one show or one album or. whatever, you had like a really rich. complex. >> Yeah. >> album like when with really cool themes. in it, right? Um and I saw it there's a. reae archivist which is I'm not sure.

what you would go study in in school to. become that a guy named Roger Stefins. and he's he likened Marley to Martin. Luther King Jr. and Tosh to Malcolm X. and like they kind of had those they. approached things from those viewpoints. So Marley made the Whalers universally. palatable and Peter Tosh inserted like. that that kind of militant um political. bent that is also like a big part of. Reggae too. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of the.

credibility for you know at least so far. as Jamaicans were concerned. >> Yeah. I saw also that like apparently. around the world he's respected at least. as much if not more than he is in. Jamaica because he was like known to. walk the walk and yeah like he he was. beaten nearly to death by the police. several times. Uh legalize it was um. banned in Jamaica so he took out a. newspaper ad and printed the lyrics in. it. Um like he was a he was a cool dude. for sure. >> Yeah. All right. So I think we should. take another break. Okay. Uh, and we.

will come back and talk a little bit. about a guy named Jimmy Cliff right. after this. >> [music].

[music]. >> All right, we're back. Take it away, Josh. >> Chuck, have you ever heard a song by. Jimmy Cliff? >> Uh, yeah, I like Jimmy Cliff. Uh, Hurricane Hattie was his first big hit. in 1962. He was just a kid. He was like. 18 years old. and he moved to London and. he got a lot more reae after he moved to. London and he was a big um sort of.

proalitizer for for reae kind of took it. around the world in a lot of ways. >> Yeah. >> And um one way he did so was in a movie. which I have not seen. I don't it was. one that's always been on my list. Uh. but The Harder They Come in 1972 is a. definitely a cult classic and is uh was. was a big big like not a huge like. American hit but on the movie scene like. to film lovers it was. >> Yeah. It's also widely considered one of. the best soundtracks too. >> Yeah. uh because it's about reggae and.

the reggae music industry and Kingston. and the way things are in Kingston and. um it's uh he's like uh Jimmy Cliff. plays kind of a bandit to an extent. >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I haven't seen it. either, but it it's I just know it's. like you said a cult classic and that. >> uh as much as you know I think. simultaneous to Bob Marley touring the. world um and the Whalers uh like that. movie coming out and being seen outside.

of Jamaica like really helped spread the. concept of reae and what it was all. about. >> Yeah. I [clears throat] mean, when. you've got Cisco and Eert reviewing The. Harder They Come on TV show. Like, sure, >> it's spreading fairly mainstream, you. know. >> Two thumbs up if I'm not mistaken. >> Well, I I don't know. I know Eert gave. it a thumbs up, but I don't know about. Cisco. We'll have to go back and look. >> I know I've told you this before, but do. you know that Jean Cisco's stated. favorite movie was Saturday Night Fever? >> Yeah. >> And he owned the white suit that. Travolta wore in Saturday Night Fever.

>> Yeah, we that was in our uh disco. episode. >> Okay. But it's just such a great fact. >> Yeah. And you know what? Since that. episode, I've had as a uh I copy pasted. from the original New York Times article. that inspired Saturday Night Fever. >> Uh it's been sitting on my desktop on my. computer for like 10 years, >> unread. >> Oh, it's good. It's just especially if. you go into it knowing it's just one big. lie, it's it's actually even better. >> Oh, was it? I don't I don't remember.

that part. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I wish I could take that. back. I thought you did. >> No, that's all right. >> I'm sorry. >> I'll still read it. >> Okay. It's worth. >> 10 years from now. I'll forget, by the. way. >> Okay, cool. But you'll never forget that. Jean Cisco fact I like to bust out every. few years. >> That's right. Uh, so we should talk a. little bit more about um. I guess we talked a little bit about the. violence um that was going on when Rea. was born in Kingston, >> but over the years reae has just sort of.

been intertwined with a lot of political. violence and violent clashes uh. especially within the country. politically. Um and you know they were. always in the middle of it and Bob. Marley was usually in the middle of it. trying to bring people together. uh in. 1976 they were in the middle of a clash. between the uh people's national party. which was the ruling party at the time. and um their opponents and Bob Marley. went to uh play an antiviolence concert. and some of the people dragged him on.

that for like saying no like you're. you're siding with the PNP and Prime. Minister Michael Manley just by even. playing this event. So, I think he'd. never I think there was a lot of. frustration there judging from the from. the documentary about like trying to do. the right thing uh by bringing people. together, but some people on the. opposition being like you can't even. like talk to the other side. >> Yeah. And the the the PMP, the ruling. party, they were left-wing. They it was. a socialist experiment I essentially. saw. And [clears throat] one reason a.

lot of people point to is why there was. so much unrest and violent clashes and. all that was because the CIA was running. around trying to destabilize the country. because it was moving to the left rather. than the right. >> Um that concert you mentioned that that. Bob Marley was frustrated about um it. seeming like he was kind of like a um a. handmaiden or whatever to the unpopular. prime minister. Um two days before he. was shot. He was shot. Rita was shot. Two other people were shot in his home.

and after being shot in the chest and. the shoulder, he still went on and. played that show. >> Yeah, it was incredible. Um, two years. after that in 1978, uh, he had the very famous One Love. concert because there was still that. divided political climate. >> and once again Bob Marley's there in the. middle trying to make peace and he. brought the the two guys together. He. brought Prime Minister Manley together. with uh Edward I think Sega of the. Jamaican Labor Party and that was a huge.

huge deal. >> Yeah. There's a very famous picture of. them holding hands cuz Bob Marley's. making them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, um, Marley. actually died of a cancerous growth that. started on his toe that he didn't get. looked at because he thought it was an. old soccer injury and he actually. collapsed in Central Park uh after a. pretty great show in Madison Square. Garden. >> Yeah, he opened up for the Commodores. and apparently blew the Commodores off. the stage. And the real sad thing about.

his death is that uh from everything I. saw was that that was he probably could. have been very successfully treated for. cancer had he had he uh gotten it looked. at earlier on. >> Yeah. I saw the survival rate for black. men from that particular type of cancer. is like 70%. So yeah, that sucks. >> But he thought it was a soccer injury, I. think. >> I'm trying to I mean, is that what you. said? >> Yeah. >> I don't remember. For some reason, I. thought it had something to do with.

religion, but maybe I'm just. [clears throat] not remembering right. about that part. >> Maybe he did so well in the game, he. considered it a religious experience. >> There might have been a little bit of. both. >> So, Bob Marley was shot, but he didn't. die from that. He died from natural. causes. Peter Tosh and two years after. Peter Tosh, King Tubby were both. murdered by gunmen. That's how their. lives ended. That's I mean like there's. nowadays there's a lot of reggae artists.

who've you know come along over the. years. This is not like there was still. rather limited reae artists. So a. limited number. So two major rea stars. being murdered is actually pretty. significant. >> Oh for sure. Uh Peter Tasha's murder was. brutal. Like he had these three guys. that busted in basically held him. hostage in his house and tortured him. >> trying to get money from him and as. people like friends would come by the. house just to through the course of the. day they would be taken in and held.

hostage. >> Uh and eventually like just there was. just a big. >> like kind of crazy shootout and he was. shot in the head. It was brutal. >> Yeah. The worst thing about that aside. from the fact that he was murdered um. his murderer was a guy named Dennis. Loen. Aleppo was what people called him. And he knew that Peter Tosh had money. because he had gotten out of prison and. Peter Tosh gave him a place to stay, fed. him, took care of him to help him get. back on his feet. And that's how Aleppo. Loin repaid him by murdering him because.

he was trying to rob him for more money. >> Yeah. Pretty brutal. >> Yeah. And then King Tubby was murdered. in what they think was a botched robbery. in 1989. Well, that's essentially what. this was with Tosh, too, because the. whole time they were just trying to get. money that he said he didn't have at the. house. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> All right, so we mentioned London. earlier. Um, London is probably like the. second city of Reae after Kingston. Um, >> it's the Chicago of Rea. >> Yeah. [laughter]. So because of what's called the Windr.

Rush generation, which is when Caribbean. immigrants um post World War II from. British colonies and former colonies, they started, you know, moving elsewhere. and a lot of them arrived in the UK and. that came over, you know, their their. music and their their culture and their. food and everything came over and that. happened in London and there were all of. a sudden a bunch of um well, not it sort. of depends like sometimes white London. acts, sometimes uh uh Londoners that.

were black uh depending on the band, but. like I mentioned the Police and the. Specials and Madness obviously they were. in UB40 and uh you know those those. ended up being like really big bands but. they also influenced like the punk scene. with the Clash and the Sex Pistols even. >> Yeah. Johnny Rotten was heavily. influenced. He went on to found Public. Image Limited and thanks to him, Johnny. Rotten liking Reggae and Jaw Wobble the. basist really liking Dub rea um PIL had. a a certain rea dub rea thing to it.

going on. So. >> hats off to to Rea for giving us Public. Image Limited. Uh and you know it wasn't. just London like uh you know we can't. get into all this like super in a super. detailed way but it it you know reggae. went across Africa. Um there were like. nativeborn South African artists that. like became reggae stars. I know the. Ivory Coast really got into the um. Rastafari culture for a while. >> Yeah. No, for sure. And some some of. them the taking up the kind of political.

causes and calls for revolution. Um some. have actually happened to become. political leaders in their country like. Bobby Wene of Uganda or Shadowwal um in. Ghana. Um like these are reggae artists. who actually have talked the talk and. they're now political whether they like. it or not. >> Yeah. Uh New Zealand, we're looking at. you because who knew? I didn't know. Uh. in 1979,

uh Bob Marley played in Auckland and it. kind of he kind of caught a fire there. and Maui musicians sort of adopted reae. for a while and yeah, >> you know, they brought their own thing. like you know always happens when you. sort of adopt a music they brought their. own vocal harmonies and stuff, >> but they they also like everywhere. reggae went that that it caught fire. I. think people except in college dorms in. the 80s and 90s in the United States, >> there was a big like um identification. with the the politics sort of the. bottomup politics of it all,

>> right? Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of lost. on the dorm crowd, was it? >> I mean, I think we all like to think we. were down with the movement, but we just. wanted the bumper stickers, >> but I'm sure it definitely helped shape. our our world views as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it opened us up to. other things for sure. There are two. other things that you can draw a direct. line to from reggae to current music. One is hip-hop, like you said, and that. line seems to go through DJ Cool Hurt, who was definitely prominently featured.

in our hip-hop episode because he was. actually born in Kingston, I think, and. ended up in the Bronx. And it just so. happened that within a few years of DJ. Cool Herk moving to the Bronx, hiphop. came up in New York out of nowhere. So, they think that it was him. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean he didn't come to the. Bronx till he was 12, so he had a lot of. years in Jamaica. >> to like bring that influence. Uh, and. yeah, like I said, that toasting. Jamaican toasting tradition came right. along with him. >> Yeah. And remember you talked about how.

Dub would strip the vocals out of music. So you had instrumental music. He would. do that with two turntables and a. microphone as Beck said. >> That's right. Uh other places, uh. Panama, like Central and South America. had a big uh thing they called Reggae on. Espanol. >> And uh Puerto Rico, they had um like an. underground Spanish language uh like. reae rapeton. uh that came along and like you can draw. a direct line from that to somebody like.

Bad Bunny. >> Yeah. I I think it's even like they they. call Bad Bunny's music reton. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Yeah. Um, >> boy, that Super Bowl performance was so. fun. >> Yeah, he really did set the world on. fire. >> I thought it was great. It was a lot of. fun. >> Yeah, like he he prefigured Erling. Holland. He was like the Erling Holland. of Super Bowl halftime shows. >> So, uh, Chuck, favorite reggae band of.

all time? >> Uh, I mean, early Whalers for sure. >> Okay, I'm going with Burning Spear. >> Oh, yeah. Um, Chuck, did you like the. '9s Sky Revival? >> Uh, nah, I wasn't into that. >> Me either. >> Was in my bag. >> I got us to um listener mail now. I. managed to unlock it for us. >> Oh, okay. Are we there? >> Yeah, because um back in 2008, one of us. predicted that we would bag on the uh.

'9s mid '90s SCA revival in one of our. episodes, and that would trigger. listener mail. Uh, all right. We got a short one here. because this this episode is a little. longer. It's just a quick correction. from Dave in California. He said, "Hey. guys, in the Elellaner Roosevelt. episode, uh, instead of inflante deto. which is the common term, uh, Josh. coined coined the term inflante inflante. delicato.".

>> Sure. Uh, which could perhaps mean. gently a fire, which Dave Dave says is. actually not entirely inappropriate. perhaps. >> Right. That's what I It's kind of what I. thought. I didn't realize it. >> it was Decto. What does deleto mean? Like. >> I don't know. >> On fire. Yeah. What does deleto mean, Chuck? You. don't know? >> Decto. Well, I think it means caught in. the act, which is what that means as. [music] a phrase. >> Oh, okay. Um, no. Uh, I see that it's um, yeah,

caught red-handed. [music]. >> Yeah. >> All right. But I like. >> that's fine, but I like mine better. >> Well, I think a stuff you should know. t-shirt should clearly be in flegrante. delicato. >> Yeah, the gentle fire. >> Yeah, the soft touch. >> Lay down by the gentle fire with me, baby. Uh, you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. I hope we did reae. justice. >> Oh, well, I I think we did. I hope so, too. Yeah. I feel like every time I. reassure you, I'm setting us up for.

people to be like, "You guys suck. You. You did a terrible job." So, I'm just. going to say, "I hope so, too." How. about that? >> Yeah. Actually, what usually happens is. we get like, "Hey, you guys did a pretty. good job." But also, there's this, this, and this. Which is exactly what we want. >> Yes. But usually, it's from experts, and. we love that, too. >> That's true. >> All right. Well, if you want to get in. touch with us like Dave, you said? >> Yeah, Dave. >> Uh, well, you can email us just like. Dave did. Send it off to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com.

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [music].