Parasocial Relationships: That Podcaster is Your Friend! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is Step you should know the. little close to home edition yeah right. in two ways one is that uh as podcasters. we are on one end of the parasocial. relationship uh.

relationship correct yeah and the other. is like I have these I don't know if you. do or not but I have parasocial. relationships of my own with podcasts I. don't have any because I'm sane right a. I'm totally kidding I don't think I have. any no I don't have any I think what it. is is has nothing to do with sanity my. imagination's just not that Vivid oh. okay you know what I mean because I. think for for this to to set you have to. be able to imagine yourself like in the.

room um with the PE people you're. listening to for example or what you. would do after they stopped filming the. TV show or something like that like any. you're you're big into comedy any of. your big comedian people that you love. you know never think like God we would. be friends if we knew each other no I. really don't I don't I feel like. deficient because of it but I genuinely. do not have any parasocial relationship. that I can bring to mind and I don't. remember having that I think I just.

assume that they wouldn't like me rather. than they would like me which makes it. much harder to have a parasocial. relationship with somebody you just. assume you wouldn't get along with very. well uh well then by some estimates. you're part of the 49% of people that of. Americans that is that do not have. parasocial relationships and if you're. yelling at us right now because we. haven't defined it yet a parasocial. relationship is a it's like when you. listen to a podcast and you think I know.

those guys they're like my friends we. would be so we would be such good. friends in real life it's a one-sided. relationship uh between a consumer of a. thing a fan of a thing and a public. figure yeah in one of those papers you. sent me I saw it described rather aptly. as a um one-sided intimacy at a. distance yeah and in our go go be normal.

as much as you can type. Society um that sounds a little like off. base a little weird a little out there. to some people I should say to others. you're it's like well yeah of course. this is normal life but um we we should. say like there's nothing inherently. wrong with it it can go wrong yeah as. we'll see but at its base having a. parasocial relationship does not make. you a loser a loner social misfit um a.

weirdo actually makes you slightly. healthier emotionally intellectually in. my opinion yeah and as we'll talk about. studies bear that out that it's uh you. know I think they they put it generally. about 3 to 5% of the time it can go. south and we'll talk about that kind of. stuff when it becomes obsessive and. stuff like that but yeah for the other. 95 to 98% of people it actually provides. quite a benefit because it makes someone.

it makes someone feel good and it makes. people laugh a lot of times and I feel. like comedy a lot of times is what you. associate more I'm sure you can have. paros social relationships with like uh. Peter Jennings or something sure or Dan. Rather I'm sure that happens it would be. harder though as we'll see you generally. think of it in terms of like uh either a. podcast or a TV show when you when you. would sit around and you would think. about uh which friend am I or which uh.

Sex in the City character you're such a. Miranda like that's the kind of thing. that we're talking about here when. people identify so much that it's like a. real relationship yes and I want to say. I am in that very unusual and unique. position as are you and as are most. podcasters. right I totally am a Miranda um actually. no what's the other one's name who is. married to um Kyle mlin.

I feel like I identify more with her. yeah Charlotte Charlotte yeah I'm a. total Charlotte um what I was going to. say though is um I'm in the unique. position of being on the opposite side. of a parasocial relationship that's a. very rare place to be and I can tell you. that I do enjoy hearing about that like. when we're at live shows and people tell. us like we're they they think of us as. like their friends or whatever I always. love to hear that kind of thing yeah me. too yeah so I don't I don't want to I.

don't engage with them myself but when. they are thrust upon me I'm like oh yeah. I love that yeah and we feel the same. way uh generally and most times when we. meet listeners who are awesome like that. we we if we did know each other there's. a good chance we might be friends yeah I. think that's another thing too is is I. think that's kind of like that that um. weirdo view of it like the the irony of. it is they're so far off base that like. if they ever actually did meet the.

person in real life they would be. horribly crushed and maybe even mocked. um I mean at least from our experience. most people who do come up and tell us. that they think of us as friends do seem. like people we would probably hang out. with in real life totally there's also. and I'll talk about this a little bit I. guess later but uh I'm in a situation. where a lot of the podcasts that I. consume or comedy podcasts where I do. kind of know the person oh okay but. that's a quasi parasocial relationship.

because I find myself thinking I'm. better friends with them than I am when. in fact they are just industry. colleagues that are loose Pals perhaps. but I think like oh yeah me and Scott. aeran are like great friends because we. have so much in common yeah he does not. think that and Scott's a great guy super. nice he's always been very nice I'll be. on his shows occasionally we both worked. with him a little bit but we're not. great friends even though I feel like we.

are because I listen to so much of his. stuff okay I'm glad you you name checked. somebody I was going to ask you who you. have parasocial relationships with but I. feel like quasi parasocial relationship. is very. Niche yeah probably so so let's let's. begin at the beginning um these things. haven't been around forever mostly. because they're a product of media. Communications they would not exist. otherwise because without media you. would actually be interacting with this. person face to face and that's the big.

rub of the whole thing is that other. person is on the other side of a screen. they're in your your headphones they're. not there physically but the the way. that they present themselves to you. tricks us into um becoming friends with. them or having an affinity for them just. as you would if you met them in real. life and the whole thing is traced back. to a couple of sociologist named Donald. Horton and Richard wall who back in the. 50s started noticing that people.

would actually talk back to their TV and. that they as sociologist they said this. is interesting that's kind of unusual. and probably new people don't understand. TV and I think I'm sure it existed. before in radio but as we'll see um. media has added to itself added to. itself added to itself over the. generations over the the last you know. half century or so um to make it more. likely that you're going to have a a. parasocial relationship with somebody in. media um and a deeper one too but the.

whole thing started with TV and people. shouting at it and what they coined was. a term called parasocial. interactions yeah and that's uh I think. TV also was all of a sudden you had a. couple of other ingredients to the. recipe that could spawn a parasocial. relationship which is uh repeated. consistent faces uh that you're seeing. it's not like you know going to a movie. which you could do before the you know. 1956 uh that person being in your uh.

house in your living room every week or. even every night was a different thing. uh and they were talking to you they. were looking at your face uh and there. were new kinds of media personalities. that they hadn't seen before which is uh. like game show host talk show host. newscasters people looking into the. camera and talking to you the home. audience and that changed things and. they were fascinated by what they called. this relationship between what they dub. persona who are you know the Dan rathers.

or whatever I don't know why Dan Rather. is so on the tip of my brain what's he. even doing these days he's writing and. stuff right I don't I don't know it's. been a while I haven't heard from him in. a while he hasn't called me back I think. he's I think he's pretty active uh on. social media and stuff anyway um it was. a new thing where there were people in. your room these person talking to your. family and it was there was a lot of. small talk that had never been around. before like on the news when you uh you.

know how newscasters are they they we've. talked about it in the weather person. episode the change to like the more. familiar banter and small talk and you. know let's talk about uh our lives a. little bit even all of a sudden people. are being let in yes and that's a a. product of the whole thing like that's. purposeful and what the whole thing. creates is the illusion of. intimacy and that which I disagree with. by the way what that it's an illusion. well yeah I mean that's what Horton and.

wall called it I think it's a type of. intimacy okay so what would you call it. intimacy type of. intimacy oneway intimacy I guess okay. yeah I'll agree with you on that for. sure all right I think these guys were. just like what the heck is going on so. yeah 1950s I get it they wer they. weren't yeah so um we we'll just call it. this type of intimacy um or one-sided. intimacy and like I was saying like they. they purposely cultivated this as they. started not not wall and Horton but um.

TV producers found out very quickly that. like people would write letters to you. know their favorite newscaster or their. favorite soap oper character or. something like that that was kind of new. again people would yell at the radio um. or they would listen to a specific news. announcer on the radio or something like. that that happened before but that whole. thing of being able to look at you of. being able to talk to you directly. seemingly. again it triggers something in us that.

radio could never do yeah and like you. said I think I cut you off you were. talking about the fact that it wasn't an. accident they they worked on this they. were told to look directly into the. camera lens and they were told to make. uh small talk and have friendly banter. between each other and to have like a. friendly tone it was all engineered to. get people to watch you more it wasn't. engineered so parasocial relationships. would form but that was a byproduct of. them trying to get their game show host.

or their newscaster to uh connect with. an audience right so some other things. they would do is um characters would be. boiled down into kind of thumbnail. sketches of a person so you have like. Joey who's kind of like the ditsy one or. Gracie Gracie Allen was the original I. think kind of dits on TV um and when she. entered the room or when Joey entered a. scene you knew something like hilarious. was going to happen because they were. just so ditsy. and in that sense you know Joey like you.

don't know Matt LeBlanc at all you know. Joey the character that Matt LeBlanc is. playing uh how you doing exactly you. know he's probably going to say. something like that he's going to like. go after some girl or something like. that you can predict his actions which. means that you have um some sort of. relationship with him and that you you. recognize his personality and you accept. it and you can predict it and that in. and of itself is a level of.

intimacy yeah and you don't even. necessarily have to identify with that. particular character I think in the case. of something like friends or Sex in the. City a lot of people just said hey this. is like my group of friends and Joey is. like my friend Josh and uh Chandler is. like my other friend and that kind of. thing I go you wait who I'm I'm like who. I was talking about a different Jos okay. said I said you're like Joey but you're. not like any of the friends uh no no I'm. not maybe a bit a bit of a Rachel I.

don't know kind of happy about that. we're going with friends and Sex in the. City for the rest of the episode huh I. guess so uh another thing that we did on. our own very show was uh that they did. back then to engineer this kind of. connection was um call-in shows uh. reading fan mail on the air stuff like. that interacting with the audience which. is obviously ramped up in the day of. social media which uh we'll get to. because that's a a whole different ball. wax these days yes um and one of the.

reasons that Horton and wall created a. new term for what the person is who the. person is having a parasocial. relationship with person or Persona um. is because that's not again it's not a. real person even if they're not playing. a character and you know the newscaster. is playing himself the newscaster he's. not talking about like the horrible. fight he and his wife had the day before. like he didn't get much sleep and he's. not really feeling good he's never going. to bring that up um all he's ever going.

to show you is at least a neutral mood. if not a positive mood and so after. seeing that time and time and time again. you um develop an idealized vision of. this person this Persona um that can't. possibly hold up in reality and in that. sense that makes the um parasocial. relationship that much more seductive. because what that Persona can offer you. is an idealized friend um Dave helped. out with this and he said that um the.

the Cheery game show host is never has a. bad day and snaps at you they're always. there I would caveat that with except. Alex tbec but for the most part all the. other ones wouldn't they're always. Pleasant they're always like nice to be. around and they're always making you. feel good about yourself that's one of. the reasons Paris social relationships. can be so strong should we take a break. yes all right we'll be right. back. [Music].

go uh all right so let's talk about this. um we got the setup with Horton and wall. and then since then over the decades. things have been pretty interesting uh. as we've moved toward social media which. again we'll get to but uh the reason. that we form bonds it sounds like it. might be a little weird even though we. explained that it's quite natural but. it's it's evolutionary in nature we've.

talked before plenty about the facts. that uh human beings are hardwired to be. social with one another because it helps. in their survival the ability to uh read. someone's tone or read someone's face. was very valuable in the age of Tuk tuck. when they would approach like a new uh. people or something like a new persona. uh and also the fact that uh it's it. made Tuk Tok feel good to have a friend. so we are hard Ed to be social with one. another to pick up on social cues and to.

have FNS and we do that we pick up on. the social cues largely from facial. expressions and tone of voice both of. which come through loud and clear in um. TV close-ups right exactly for sure so. what's happening and again I don't think. this was originally I mean no one. invented TV to do this to people it was. like a surprise but once people figured. out it was going on they exploited it as. as quickly as they could but TV. accidentally tricks you into thinking.

you're interacting with a really great. person and that they're interacting with. you and they kind of like you so you. like them back right because your lizard. brain your evolutionary brain doesn't. know the difference between Dan Rather. talking to your face on a television and. Dan Rather really being in front of you. in a Starbucks uh you don't really know. the difference all you know is you know. going back to your your brain goes back. to Tuk tok's days and you see a kind. face looking you in the eyeball telling.

you something uh interesting or funny or. what have you right exactly so I like. you said I'm in the. 49% um that uh like just don't. necessarily feel this way and the reason. why not everyone does this and that. other people do it strong more strongly. than others supposedly has to do with. your natural levels of empathy that the. more you're able to take other people's. perspectives onto your own and kind of. imagine yourself in their shoes or.

understand their struggles or just. acknowledging the fact that they. probably are struggling in some way or. um you're more likely to Vibe on. somebody in real life and on TV as well. or in social media as we'll see I think. you can be highly empathetic though I. can be it's just to people that you know. know and love no so maybe that's a. difference I no I mean I can be to. strangers too for sure um I I just don't. know there's there's some well that's. true I didn't mean it like that I just. meant more I see where you I see the.

delineation in your mind but that's the. thing I'm not aware of it it feels like. there's a short circuit between you know. what I'm capable of like in with people. in real life and people not in real life. like there's a disconnect between those. two and I'm not sure what it is or where. it comes from but I don't know I because. I do I I like to think I'm fairly. empathetic too yeah for sure I thought. you were saying you weren't so you are.

well I mean also like there's not a lot. of like podcasts you listen to every day. and stuff is there no but I mean like I. watch a lot of TV too and I don't have. like a Paris social relationship with. Jason Vorhees or anything. I I don't uh oh boy that reminds me I. just saw a very funny old Camille Nani. bit about uh well you can look it up. about Jason and Freddy it's probably not. something I want to say on the air okay. but it's very. funny I I want to know well just Google.

it okay okay I'll wait after the show. how about that uh I think I can. summarize it best by saying that Freddy. in the movie Freddy versus Jason was. racist at one point in one of his little. Freddy lines uh because he talked about. a uh person with of color uh in a made. sort of a Freddy quip about it and. people he was like and people in the. audience groaned and he's like they. really you know it's okay that you're. murdering children but like when you.

made a racist jab like that's when we're. not on team Freddy anymore it was pretty. funny anyway uh where was I going with. that though what were you talking about. uh we yeah we were moving on that that. like um oh oh oh I know what I was going. to say is that I don't really have these. with TV people podcasting specific is. where I get my parasocial relationships. and I'm yeah I I like I guess I don't. know like I would say that like I listen. to a lot of Terry Gross and I've never.

been like Terry and I would be great. friends or you know I like her I think. she's amazing I think she's one of the. best interviewers walking around right. now but sure again there's just that. like she is on the radio she's in. Philadelphia like I I've I've never met. her I'll never meet her probably like. I've stood outside her house like those. those right she would not come to the. door I know those qualifications like. mean something to me subliminally that. keep me from having a parasocial. relationship I think that's it we're.

going to hammer this out one way or. another by the end of this episode so uh. there's something called the. compensation Theory and that is the idea. that people who get in parasocial or who. are more inclined to get into parasocial. relationship are compensating for a lack. of real relationships in their life the. like you sort of mentioned earlier the. the Trope of the the lonely person who's. socially awkward and doesn't have these. relationships in in real life so they. dream up a relationship with Conan.

O'Brien or whatever and studies don't. bear this out Studies have shown that. that's not the case it's just not true. and in fact they've shown the opposite. that people who are more extroverted and. more likely to score higher on test for. interpersonal skills are more likely to. form these relationships which it tracks. for me it makes sense if you're more. likely to be that way in a real. relationship and in real life then it. seems like you would be more likely to. do that.

parasocial yes but it is controversial. like there are definitely two schools of. thought one is that this is inherently a. dangerous thing to do socially for. yourself and for whoever the object of. your parasocial relationship is um and. then other people like no that's just. you guys are like there's no data to. back this up right but that whole. compensation Theory there's a model that. that attempts to explain it called the. addiction absorption model and and it. basically says that it it says that.

people who seek out um parasocial. relationships essentially are get like. like you were saying like they're. awkward so they have to go find it. somewhere else because there's an. inherent human drive to make connections. so they're just making them with people. they'll never meet in real life that. they kind of idolize and by doing that. they absorb the person's life they. absorb information about the person's. life right and effectively get addicted. to it cu it feels good to to be close to. that person and that like any addiction.

they develop a tolerance to a certain of. absorption so they start getting further. and further and deeper and deeper along. into this addiction of their favorite. person and one day find themselves. standing outside of Terry gross's house. hopeing she'll come to the door um that. that that's like you will eventually. reach that that that level if you follow. this path long enough and that anybody. anyone who's engaged in a parasocial.

relationship is at risk of becoming that. person that's stalking Terry Gross I'm. sorry Terry Gross I know this is just. working so I'm going with it and that is. one Camp they've got the models but they. don't have data that says that and in. fact the models are themselves are super. questionable the measures are super. questionable and it seems like that's. just a really. overstating um you know the the. potential risks and dangers of this that.

for most people like you said it's. healthy I think so because if you're. looking at a if these numbers are. accurate and you're looking at like a 3. to 5% rate of someone who takes things. too far where Terry Gross is is like. listening to uh uh God what's her show. I'm totally blanking fresh air fresh air. is the gateway drug and then that's not. enough and then you need uh you go out. and get some fresh air in front of her. house things can get trouble. that's the same thing as saying like.

anybody who ever takes a sip of alcohol. is at risk for becoming an alcoholic and. exactly like technically these things. are true because if you never took that. sip of alcohol you wouldn't be an. alcoholic but it's it's just I think. it's a bit much right like anyone who. smokes a rock of crack is GNA get. addicted to crack right yeah exactly so. um I just a little more on that model. there's a kind of like the person at the. center of the yeah it's a dangerous. thing um Camp seemingly is a.

psychologist named Lyn McCutchen yeah. this was interesting Lyn McCutchen in. 2002 came up with the celebrity attitude. scale and that's not a measure of like. which Real Housewife is more caddy than. the others that's right instead it. measures your attitude towards. celebrities if you're engaged in. parasocial relationships and Lyn. McCutchen broke it out into basically. three levels and again they believe that. this is like a state like these are. stages this isn't like this person would.

never get to this stage like if you. start at the first one you're at risk of. ending up in the third yeah and this was. by the way like 20 years ago 21 years. ago so it wasn't a couple of years ago. which it sounds like it might be uh but. the the three levels are the. entertainment social level uh which uh. McCutchen says is like almost everybody. and that's what we've been talking about. when you just it's all good and it's all. fun and there's no weirdness going on uh. then you get to intense personal and. that's when uh you start to internalize. the values of that person and consider.

them a. soulmate uh those to me feel like. disperate things like yeah that's a. pretty Wide Window because when I first. read it that I was like yeah. internalizing the values of like someone. doing good things it's like that's great. but putting that in the same categories. considering their soulmate is a big. stretch for me agreed okay and then the. final level uh borderline pathological. that's the 3 to 5% and that's when it's. uh what they call celebrity worship.

that's the one yeah that's the one where. um well no okay so borderline. pathological is like the worst of it but. I think they're all celebrity worship. supposedly and that became a big problem. yes and that's problematic because um. some of the people who are like this is. not this isn't like an actual like you. guys there's no data suggesting that. this is actually dangerous they're. saying and one of the big problems is. you guys are inter interchanging the. term fan with the term celebrity. worshipper. right and yet you've never actually. studied fans like they've never applied.

the celebrity attitude scale to groups. of fans they just appli it to random. co-eds who wanted like extra credit for. their psychology class yeah so when when. a media psychologist named Gail Stever. or Stever um Gail and Lynn it's like a. It's Pat episode up in here um so when. when Gail Stever uh applied the. celebrity attitude scale to a group of. fans like people who go to conventions.

and like the Beehive or the Swift uh. swifties yeah or who who interact with. other fans um people who've written. letters to a a celebrity or something. like that like fans like above average. fans yeah um they found that most of. them didn't even rise to the criteria. for that First Entertainment social. level right and that there is a definite. distinction between being a fan and. being a celebrity worshipper in any F. could tell you that but you can thank. Gail Stever for uh proving it yeah so.

they're interrogating all these swifties. and they're like dude you're being weird. I just think she's awesome and like her. music and uh go to see her shows and you. know fans get together and talk like. just uh back off you're being very. strange right but we wouldn't have a. great Pantheon of of creepy movies if it. weren't for that oh yeah you know. celebrity worship the borderline. patholog there's a lot of those huh yes. but they may be generally made up I'm. not sure are any of them.

good what comes to mind is the Robert. dairo Wesley Snipes one cuz we haven't. even talked about sports that one thing. that you sent me that uh is accurate is. when you're at home screaming at a. football player for dropping a pass or. something that's a parasocial. interaction right so that's a parasocial. interaction knowing that that player. knowing his wife's name and when they. got married that's the beginnings of a. parasocial relationship that's the. distinction parasocial interaction could. be um C out of just about anybody um if.

you're into whatever you're watching but. that doesn't mean you're G to follow up. after the game or the episode is over. right and don't ever talk back at the. movie screen although it can be funny in. the theater yeah no never I mean I don't. do it and I think it's rude but I've. also had a pretty good laugh or too when. someone timed it out just right my. famous story about the witch in New. York uh that I won't repeat okay I'll. just tell you. go find it I forget stuff you want to.

take a second break yeah yeah let's do. that we'll be uh we'll get back here in. a minute we'll talk about some of the. benefits perhaps and then the dark side. right after. [Music]. this okay so uh I think we kind of laid. out that the there's a really big. disagreement on whether this is actually. problematic or not I kind of tend to.

lean in the camp that not although for. some people it can be okay yeah but. there's also like a whole other school. of thought that this is actually helpful. in some ways in some surprising ways too. but in ways that you would um you would. probably guess like um that you are. physically emotionally psychologically. getting a benefit out of that parasocial. relationship that if you have a favorite. podcast. and favorite podcasters and when you.

listen to them you feel like you're. hanging out with your friends you're. receiving positive benefits from that. and as long as you're not. replacing real life friends yeah with. podcast friends because your real life. friends are bothering you they bug you. you're you're you're getting basically. nothing but benefit from it yeah and. some of the other like specific benefits. are examples of where uh and you see. this more and more these days with um. well with all kinds of people actors and.

pop stars and stuff talking about mental. health uh people have many many many. people have sought treatment for. themselves because their favorite singer. has been open and honest about an eating. disorder or a mental uh challenge um I. think Dave used the example of Katie. kurick years ago when she uh her husband. died of colon cancer and she did a. broadcast where she got a colonoscopy. and the rate of people getting. colonoscopies jumped after that so it it.

literally can help people uh be. physically and mentally healthier. because they're taking a queue like they. may not want to listen to their friend. who says hey you you should get some. help but they'll listen to uh Edie. Briel what say wow I don't know how that. happened but uh don't even question it. just go with ailly eish and edel Ed. Briel say you know you should uh you. should help if you're having struggles. with a certain. thing uh okay yes that's a benefit for.

for all too right and that doesn't mean. that you're like you're just doing what. the celebrity you like tells you to. there's a certain amount of I think just. raising awareness that isn't accounted. for in that as well um also. supposedly having a parasocial. relationship with somebody in an. outgroup from you can actually create. feelings of empathy toward life members. of that out group totally there was a.

2020 study published in Communications. research that um had participants watch. 10 weeks of um a show that featured um. lgbtq plus people as outgroup. people and over the 10 weeks most of the. people developed at least an Infinity. for the outgroup people um but some. people actually developed parasocial. relationships with them and the groups. that were the most prejudiced against. gay people going into the study had the.

most growth and actually had lower um. lessened attitudes of prejudice toward. gay people after the study because they. were exposed to gay people through TV. through these characters that they. developed some form of parasocial. relationship with yeah so like uh I. usually don't like homosexuals but uh. after watching after being forced to. watch six feet under Keith and Michael's. story was was so sweet and I just really. love those guys that happens and that's.

why and that's one reason why. representation matters just one reason. go ahead so uh Chuck speaking of gay. love stories I saw Have You Seen the. Last of Us I'm sure you have yeah yeah I. played the game as well I was way into. it so the the I think episode three the. best Nick Offerman just amazing dude it. is so amazing so if you have a relative. who um is uh. homophobic just start watching the The.

Last of Us with and they like guns. episode yeah and hate zombies and. episode three will spring on them and. before they know it they'll love gay. people for the rest of their lives it's. amazingly well done well you know the. story there is in the game there is a. just one brief mention of uh the the. partner uh I I can't think of his name. now who ni off played yeah there was. Offerman yeah there's only one mention. of Frank when he just says something in. the game about like yeah I lost my.

partner a year ago something something. and it you don't even know when you're. playing the game if it was like a. business partner or whatever and then. when they made the TV show they said hey. this is like a chance to go off script. and to build a richer world and to like. make this great episode of this a. awesome backstory and it was you know. hail is like one of the best TV episodes. of the year of like any show yes it's. amazing Nick Offerman just just did such. a great job yeah and the other guy from. uh White Lotus God he's so good I've.

never seen him before I've not watched. that show oh I think you would like. White Lotus I've heard I've heard I've. heard. yeah uh Murray uh what's his name Mur. something F Murray Abraham no Murray uh. Bartlett he's fantastic okay all right. has he been in anything else besides. White Lotus I might have seen him in. because I really didn't recognize him. but he had a pretty thick beard I don't. know. he's so good at White Lotus though okay.

I'll check it out I'll check it out he's. been in other stuff and he's certainly. like probably more busy than he's ever. been now because of those. roles um okay so where were we Chuck we. were talking about well some of the. benefits too um one thing that we've. seen over the years is that uh you're. not weird as a you know 40 something. year old person to not have a parasocial. relationship because generally speaking. teens and AD Ence are more likely to. have these than adults do uh and for.

teens it can be kind of like we said. before if there's if Edie Briel is. telling a teen about her struggles with. something uh it's a really big deal for. a teen or an adolescent to know that. they're not alone that they can seek. help and they're not weird because their. favorite person their favorite singer. also has the same. thing right that's incredibly beneficial. I mean to help kids that are just feel. completely isolated and make feel less. alone also um apparently this is an.

explanation for um the Trope of young. girls like pre-adolescent and adolescent. girls having crushes on like um Scott. beo or um who else that's not a jerk um. the Bay City Rollers yeah the Bay City. Rollers of course everybody went through. that uh that they're actually like the. parasocial relationship helps them kind. of explore or what a real relationship. is going to be like what their.

expectations are what their wants are. what their needs are kind of hair want. their their significant other to have. Bay City Rollers hair yeah for sure the. aka the best hair yeah I said that. because uh I remember when I was a kid. very specifically I have a memory of uh. we had a babysitter over one night and. the babysitter was a girl that was older. than my sister so my sister must have. been pretty young cuz she's 6 years. older than me and she usually was the. babysitter by that point but I remember.

them sitting around with a bity rollers. record and spinning it around and. dropping their finger on the album and. whichever you know roller that their. finger landed nearest to was the one. that they would fall in love. with such a memory of that when I was. like five years old or something it's. very funny yeah did it just blow your. mind or were you like what is this C uh. no I got it and you know I famously had. a my very first crush was uh Christy. McNichol uh who was gay so I don't know.

what that says about me what was she and. Aiden is enough no she was in uh God I. mean she was in movies and stuff she was. sort of uh just the cute girl next door. when we were well I'm older than you but. when I was a kid I remember I I just. don't remember what she was in um I'm. trying to think of something I mean she. was in movies and stuff like Little. Darlings and stuff that I wasn't allowed. to watch uh but I think she was on a a. TV show too yeah I'm familiar with her I.

can't remember what I swear oh family. that was it she was on that TV show. family that's why I thought it was Eight. is Enough it's basically the same thing. exactly there just weren't eight of them. I think so again can be very beneficial. usually very harmless there is a dark. side that's not to say that there isn't. that that parasocial relationships can't. go wrong or that they can be harmful or. it can't be harmful and one of the one. of the ways that I said that media has. built on itself over and over again yeah.

you ain't kidding going from Radio to TV. TV apparently another big crest of this. was when reality shows came along yep. made people even more connected to the. people on the screen and then social. media came along and that is it's it's. almost. like it was designed to get into your. brain and be like this person is. legitimately your friend they liked your. post they may even like DM back and.

forth with you they might respond to. your email they know who you are they're. your friend and at that point it being. that realistic it can trick you in into. forgetting that they they aren't your. friend they don't really know you and um. this is a parasocial relationship. especially especially for developing. Minds yeah absolutely because all of a. sudden you have 247 access depending on. how active someone is in social media MH.

where they are really sharing their life. and you see a post by someone and you. think oh my gosh I have a a black uh mun. cat too and I have that same tile in. your bathroom you're getting little. little glimpses and I mentioned tile. because I did the same thing I saw. Melissa McCarthy post something one time. and I had the same tile that she did and. I like a dope thought oh my God we have. the same taste we would be such good. friends. well she's a huge Tik Tok influencer so. I'm sure that happens to lots of people.

oh is she really no no I don't know I. don't think so I've never been on Tik. Tok I see her more on. Instagram yeah sure uh but it they. classify it as unhealthy when it's it. disrupts your life when it disrupts your. daily life day-to-day and if it's. damaging or replacing your real life. relationships uh that's when it's if. you're spending money like the furthest. extreme is when all of a sudden you're. you quit your job because you have to go.

live in the city where this person is or. you're spending a lot of money. collecting uh expensive memorabilia or. buying them gifts and sending them. that's where it gets into the potential. stalker realm yes or that um you. threaten self harm if they don't respond. to you or um yeah there's it can be it. can get problematic and again this is. exceedingly rare I don't think it's like. a a huge thing to to to lose sleep over. as like a parent or a concerned person.

um but it can happen and again that just. the combination of social media and at. developing. Brains it's just so dangerous in so many. different ways and so potentially. harmful in so many different ways and. this is one of those ways that it can. happen one of the other I think risk. factors is is it is possible to kind of. let your in real life um relationships. dwindle as because you're putting more. and more focus and energy into your.

parasocial relationship and that also is. kind of like a self-defeating thing. because there's fewer people to kind of. pull you back toward reality and say. like no no no we're your friends that. person is an influencer doesn't even. know you exist so let's go get some ice. cream and play um fortnite while we. do right that that was a nice call up. you're not even a gamer no I'm not but. I've heard of fortnite before on TV. uh so there's an article that Dave found. that is really interesting and and good.

I think uh from the guardian from a. couple of years ago by Rachel uh ero. aroesty I guess uh called tragic but. true colon how podcasters replaced our. real friends and Rachel makes a very. strong case that podcasting has even up. the game even more peraso speaking um. and Co really helped with that because. uh during Co when people were uh locked. in and they weren't seeing their friends. face to face anymore they would have uh.

Zoom meetings and phone calls with uh. certainly with their business associates. but also with friends I I mean I did. this a few times where I would get on a. zoom with a friend from out of town or. even in town and all of a sudden uh. podcasting increased uh I think oh yeah. uh 51% of podcast listeners say they. first started listening during the. pandemic and it grew 40% from 2019 to. 2022. so not only are more people listening. but they're listening in this very.

intimate way uh and you know people are. in their ear holes and you're looking. and interacting the same way you were on. like a zoom because you were robbed of. contact with your friends so it. basically there was nothing to. distinguish the two except talking back. what a weird turn of events too for sure. um but the thing is is so the I think. that title is very misleading because if. you read it she's not actually really. lamenting it she's more just kind of. documenting it yeah I think and she also.

makes the point that um this was at a. time during the pandemic during like. lockdowns where you were physically. unable to interact with friends and. podcasts made a pretty great substitute. for a while um and that that in and of. itself makes it um less harmful I might. be a little. biased but um I do think that yes being. in people's ears is one of those. triggers like the looking at people uh.

in the camera was with TV early on like. it's a very very intimate to let. somebody to let their voice be in your. mind and basically take over your your. mind for that period of time and that's. of course what we're doing everybody. we're experimenting on yeah and the uh. the other thing too is podcasting is um. they found this great uh honors thesis. uh by someone named U Michaela nadora. from Portland State University a few. years ago called parasocial. relationships with podcast hosts where.

Michaela even references stuff you. should know which is very great she the. whole thing is about stuff you should. know all 30 something Pages yeah I. remember her sending this to us when she. um when she published oh that's right. God I totally remember that now we get a. lot of pod a lot of thesis actually. interestingly but the whole upshot is. that with podcasting uh anyone can do it. you have to have a small amount of. equipment in the internet and it's not.

like you have to uh you know go through. the trials and tribulations of someone. auditioning for a role to eventually get. on TV and stuff like that and then. you're a big star it's like it's a low. barrier to entry and that means that. there's going to be a lot of just sort. of Everyday People in regular Schmo like. you and I uh doing this and that lends. itself even more to people thinking like. of course we're friends like I'm not. going to be friends with Carrie Bradshaw. or Sarah Jessica Parker cuz they're just. so fabulous but Chuck and Josh are just.

normies like us so we would be friends. Norm core to the max we are uh another. thing that Michael and Adora um kind of. sused out as a trigger or cue is that a. lot of times people listen to podcasts. alone a lot of people listen listen to. them with other people but for the I. would say the vast majority listen to. them alone but they're also listening to. them uh while they're doing other. activities like vacuuming or commuting. or going to the grocery store so it's.

like we're along for the ride we're. keeping you company while you're doing. all this stuff we're just sitting in the. back seat having a conversation that. you're listening to while you drive us. to the grocery store right and also as. we have done over the years and. especially you know there are all kinds. of podcasts but they found that the ones. I've you know it makes sense with the. strongest pair social bonds are ones. like this where it's sort of people. chatting conversational usually comedy. uh and not like a a dramatic um like I.

don't know True Crime I guess they can. have that angle if the Hoster have a lot. of Personality like Ken in Georgia yeah. for sure uh but uh with shows like the. ones that we do you talk inevitably. about our lives and a house project. we're doing or Momo or Nico and Charlie. or uh Yumi and Emily or Ruby and people. get invested because they know this. stuff about us and they know they feel. like they know these people like who who. gets the biggest Applause at any live. show when Emily and Yumi are there mhm.

Emily and Yumi people are thrilled when. they're there and Ruby was at her first. live show in Atlanta and people were. just like I mean people were kind of. staring at her and I didn't get creeped. out cuz people were being super sweet. and friendly and they thought it was so. sweet that she was at her first show but. people hear these stories and I get it. cuz I do the same thing with my podcast. host that I love and it all just makes. sense like uh recalling jokes and um.

people have especially with us have. lived 15 16 years with us and that whole. thing where people get mad when their. favorite celebrity couple gets a divorce. like it's it's so weird to think about. but Emily and I get mad when Susan sanon. and Tim Robbin split up and if Emily and. I got divorced people would hate my guts. that listen to this. show so yeah I I think think what she. she kind of sums all that up in is that. that's one of the benefits of having a.

long running podcast or listening to a. long running podcast is Right little by. little all that stuff comes out and you. become IM mesed in the the other that. host's life like you know what's going. on in their life and that's exactly what. you do with friends you know what's. going on in their life you know uh their. dog's name and that their dog is great. and you know their wife's name and their. wife is great you just know this stuff. and it's just another way that that. media is tricking our brains which are.

programmed to seek social connections. into thinking oh I've got a social. connection going on this is pretty great. right and people don't know that I can. be very moody and passive aggressive. like e even in a podcast medium like. this where it is real for the most. part you don't want to show that stuff. on the air you put your best self. forward even in a medium like this right. that's why they coin that term Persona. or Persona because yeah that's it's just.

no one does that maybe um what was that. horrible punk guy who used to eat his. own poop on stage chch Allen yes maybe. GG Allen would do that if he were still. alive and had a podcast but for the most. part no anybody no no matter who it is. is going to at the very least put some. semblance of their best self forward. even it's not 100% it doesn't it doesn't. mean it's made up it's that you're.

holding some stuff back because it's. just you don't share that with people. you've never met before and in that. sense we the hosts are aware that you. can form a parasocial relationship with. us we can't do that with you so that. inherently makes us slightly guarded to. some degree or another and creates for. you guys a Persona that is an idealized. version of us but here's the thing I if. I talk about being passive aggressive or. Moody that ramps up the relationship.

because people can identify with that I. just can't be that to you on the air. yeah then people would witness the. actual Act of it and say oh geez Chuck's. up can be a real Moody jerk sometimes I. know it'd be like the crossword puzzle. all over again oh no oh no I'm kidding. dude great funny man that got everybody. upset you know like they were like what. is going on like is this the end of. stuff you should know oh I know I think.

I took my enthusiasm for crosswords and. got weird oh it was fine I think it's a. classic up it was a good one too but I. mean the fact that it has just that. little ball of weirdness in there I love. it it's classic stuff you should know uh. I mean that's all I got I think it's. super interesting for sure this is a. what made you choose this one that I'm. sure everybody wants to know because. they'll feel closer to you if you tell. them I don't Dave might have actually. thought of this or no maybe maybe I just. saw it because I didn't even know this.

was a term uh I i' I've lived it on both. sides but I never knew people studied it. so uh I don't know maybe that's where it. came from I just saw the words and I was. like oh wait that's me both times Chuck. both ways there you go that comes after. the colon from parasocial relationship. it's Chuck both ways yeah like a fine. dish in a great restaurant all right. sure you never had that like scallop two. ways or whatever that's the thing I made. salad four ways chicken.

salad uh like nishas salad okay um what. were the other two oh one was like a a. corn and bean salad okay sounds good and. then there was another one and I was. like my God I made four salads yeah all. in one meal there's a lot of leftover. salad but it was good salad four ways oh. like it when I came over you only made. me three salads so I'm a little salty I. was holding back I was still perfecting.

the fourth one all right I'll make that. fourth one for you some other time. please well um I feel like we're done. with this episode you said that's all. you got it's all I've got I'm done. talking about salad so that means it's. time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this. inspiration uh Hey guys want to reach. out and say that I love your show my. husband discovered it showed it to me I. haven't stopped listening since uh when. I was a stay-at-home mom feeling lonely. I would turn on the show and feel like I. was having a conversation with friends.

that's funny I didn't even pre-read this. one no way really yeah oh that's awesome. uh and Kinley says parenthesis in the. least creepy way possible always good to. include that yeah uh your show even gave. me the inspiration idea to write a daily. True Crime calendar as a way for me to. share my interest with others just like. you in fact several days in my calendar. are inspired by some of your episodes uh. by getting this idea from you to work on. the calendar it helped me through uh. postpartum anxiety wow and helped me. feel like I was helping to provide for. my new little one uh I would love to. show you my appreciation by sending you.

each a copy of my calendar if you would. like one just reply send my address uh. so hey you can send it here's my home. address I'm just kidding uh so grateful. I was able to discover the show because. I wouldn't be where I would am now if I. hadn't keep doing the good work I look. forward to hearing from you and that is. from Kenley Kenley yeah Kinley and I. Kinley yeah I want one of these uh True. Crime calendar I love a daily calendar I. just need to send Kinley the address. yeah same here so please spell Kim.

kimley or kinley's name uh k i n l e y. Kinley oh yeah like Mount McKinley but. without the mount or the. MCH exactly Kinley thank you so much for. that email like I said at the beginning. of this episode we love hearing stuff. like that so we're glad we could help in. some way and I'd love a calendar too uh. if you want to be like Kinley and get in. touch with us you can send us an email. as well send it off to stuff podcast at. iheartradio.com.

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