Pagans, Neo-Pagans, Wiccans – Let’s Sort It Out! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart. Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and we both. have antlers on our head. And this is. stuff you should know. Just a couple of. wooded pagans. Yeah, I'm excited about. this one, man. Yeah. Uh, you know, we'll. we'll reference some previous episodes. we covered. Uh, Wikah and our witchcraft.

up and there's some Alistister Crowley. in here, of course. Yeah, for sure. Uh, you knew he was going to make an. appearance. Uh, and it seems like there. was something else, too. But we'll uh, if you want the full picture, you know, go back and listen to all those together. just for a spooky Why do I say spooky? This is not even spooky. That's the. whole problem. Yeah, for sure. Misconception. Yeah. But it's so. ingrained that even after you know about. it, you know, it's hard not to just. shake that stuff. I was a church kid. I. was raised Baptist. pagans were spooky. They they killed and sacrificed things.

Yeah. I I I ran across a couple of um. websites, Christian websites that. essentially still think all of the same. things that were that that the church. originally said about pagans back, you. know, 1500 years ago. Yeah. So, it's. still alive and well. It's cool to know. the story now uh having you know left. the Baptist church many many years ago. to finally understand like oh at a. certain point in history they were just. like this is the religion and everything. else is is the devil right yeah and in.

retrospect looking at this now it's like. gosh talk about getting your wires. crossed yeah that's funny um yeah so. we're talking about paganism everybody. and. uh hats off to Dave too first of Paul. for helping us with this. This is a huge. big lump of an a topic that almost every. one of the things we're going to talk. about could be broken out into its own. episode. Yeah. So, we're going to have. to summarize in a lot of ways. We're.

going to get a lot of stuff wrong. So, apologies already to all of our pagan. listeners out there and let us know, correct us about what we do get wrong, but we're going to try our best not to. get stuff wrong. um because it's a. really interesting set of religions. We. should say that's what paganism is. It's. not a religion. It's a set of typically. nature-based religions that um before. the original ancient paganism predated.

any of what we call the Abrahamic. religions, uh the monotheistic religions. of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And. that's my definition of paganism. Can we stop there? Yeah. We haven't gotten anything wrong so far. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, you mentioned. those religions and it's pretty key to. mention the Abrahamic religions because. basically. anything else outside of that was. considered pagan historically. Uh the. word pagan actually um was an was pretty. much an insult at first uh when.

Christianity was on the rise. And we'll. talk a lot about that here in a second. uh in the Roman Empire if you did not. convert to Christian uh Christianity you. were called uh paganis which is Latin. for country dweller which is basically. like hey if you're not a Christian. you're a bumpkin aka. pagan which is interesting oh yeah it's. definitely interesting um it's it it's. funny because that means that at some. point in time and we'll talk about when. that happened Christianity suddenly. leapt forward as like a sophisticated.

thing. which is so the tables basically turned. because originally some of the um Greek. and or actually Roman um pagans were. very suspicious of Christianity and said. all sorts of lielist things against them. and then as Christianity rose to. prominence it used that same playbook. against pagans. Um but yeah, it makes. sense that it's like you were considered. a hick or or um not up to date if you. were still a pagan once Christianity.

became a thing in the Roman Empire. I. think Bumpkin summed it up nicely. I. thought so, too. I like Bumpkin because. it's like it's an insult, but it's just. so round and happy that it's hard to be. angered by it if somebody calls you a. bumpkin. Yeah. For some reason, bumpkin. does have just sort of a like I feel. like bumpkins are happy, right? They. don't care what you think of them. Uh, all right. So, uh, should we talk a. little bit about. um, you know, there's kind of two parts.

to this. There's ancient paganism, uh, which is one thing that we're going. to speak about now. And then later we're. going to talk a little bit about modern. paganism, but the kind of key. distinction here is, uh, modern paganism. isn't like, hey, we just brought back. everything they were doing back then. because it went away for a long time and. now we're going to do that same stuff. It was, you know, inspired by some of. this stuff, but as you'll see, not a lot. of text survived. So modern paganism is. basically its own new thing. Yeah. Um,

and we'll talk about where it came from, but there's a lot of. um, well, just incorrect facts on the. internet that basically says this this. tradition has continued uninterrupted. Yeah. In secret. It had to be driven. into secret by the rise of Christianity. And that just does not seem to be true. Yeah. Uh, but if we're going to go back. to ancient paganism, uh, we can talk. about some of the different elements of. because like you said, this is a lot of. different things uh, that are wrapped up. under the term paganism. Mhm. But. animism is the first one and that is the.

belief that every every object on the. planet basically has a spirit. Uh people. do my dog does your dog does that which. I totally believe. Uh the rivers, trees, everything in nature does uh animate or. inanimate which is why it's called. animism. And they thought that uh nature. can be like a great thing. It can help. protect us or it can be a dangerous. thing. it can cause us harm and it's up. to us to influence that through uh. sacrifice and these rituals that we. perform. Yeah. A good example of this.

just real quick is um there's no. absolute good and evil. That's one of. those Abrahamic religious ideas and. paganism does not believe in that. So. for example, if you are crossing a. raging river, um that river might kill. you and drown you, but it's not like the. river is evil and wants to do that. It. just can happen. So there's a risk, but. it can also be a neutral thing. You can. increase your chances of successfully. crossing that river by maybe praying to.

it, the spirit or the god of that river. or maybe offering a sacrifice. But it's. not there's no evil rivers in any of the. pagan religions except for the river. sticks. Yeah, I guess maybe. But I think even. then it's not necessarily absolutely. evil. Yeah. Uh, we've got shamanism, which is sort of like animism plus. animism with a mascot. Uh, in that the. shaman is the person who steps forward. and says, "All right, we've got all.

these objects that have spirits, and I'm. the person that can communicate with. them. Um, I will enter a trance, may. take some drugs, may do a little singing. and dancing to get there. Don't you. worry about that. But I'll get there in. that trans state and I'll be able to. communicate with uh these spirits like. go through me." Yeah. I think the. singing and dancing is subsequent to. taking the drugs. Hey, I I went to a. rave or two in my day. Exactly. Every. single person there was a shaman at that. moment. That this what it felt like at. the time probably. Right. So there.

there's a couple of things just from the. ancient pagan religions that are still. carried on today. Um ancestor worship is. another big one. Yeah. Um especially as. we'll see in the neopagan Norse. traditions. Um, but it's essentially you. can see evidence of this in the fact. that we buried people in the way that we. st we started burying people as if. they're venerated, as if we understand. that they need grave goods because. there's an afterlife. And so it's not. like a hard leap to to the idea that.

those ancestors can help us out now that. they're in the spirit world and so you. can worship them. That's a that's a big. part of it, too. Yeah, for sure. Um then. we're going to get into this whole idea. that uh and something I found that. looking through a lot of these pagan uh. rights and religions is that. um they looked at women very differently. than early Christian and some might even. argue late Christian uh religions do uh. in that uh women were were worshiped and. venerated. There were uh the earth.

mother was a big part of the the early. deities uh and worshiped and they found. Venus figurines these uh clay and stone. figures from like 35,000 years ago that. are clearly like uh probably used in. fertility rights because they have you. know exaggerated uh breasts on these. figures and uh wide hips and so uh the. whole idea of the earth mother has been. around for a long long time. Yeah. And. then you can pretty clearly demonstrate. that the earth mother um eventually.

evolved into Gaia from the Greek. pantheon. Gaia is the mom of all the. other gods. Uh which brings up another. point, polytheism. It's not. monotheistic. There is not one single. god. Even if there's a head of the gods. like say Zeus or Odin or something like. that, there's still plenty of other gods. who are gods. They're not saints. They're not angels. They're not. assistants. They are gods in and of. themselves. And so, um, polytheism is a. huge, huge part of any pagan religion,

ancient or modern, too. And I've never. looked into this, but I mean, the idea. of mother nature, that probably kind of. is kind of a trickle down from goddess. mother, earth mother, right? I would. think so, too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm. just taking a stab at that, though. So, don't you got to be right, you know? I. mean, it's not like that was just. coincidental. Somebody came up with that. in the 60s or something. Yeah, that's. true. Uh, what about sacrifice? The. stuff that pagans don't like to talk. about. Yeah. I mean, this is a can of. worms that um, you know, we can't fully.

open because there's a lot of debate. about how much sacrifice there has been. and and all religions throughout ancient. world history. Uh, a lot of times these. um, the people that say like, oh, they. were just killing babies left and right. are written by the enemies of these. people. uh in this case uh Christian and. Roman accounts about how widespread it. would be because they're trying to paint. them in a certain way. But there. definitely has been sacrifice whether it. was human or your finest crop or your.

best sheep. Yeah. I mean, we know for a. fact that Germanic and Celtic tribes. sacrificed humans just from the presence. of bog bodies and the state that they. were the way that they died. Um they're. pretty much proof positive that there. was sacrifice. And even outside of. Europe, I mean, you know, the Inca. maiden, the Lu Lea. No, Luleo. Luleo. I. think you mean Leilani. The maiden. You remember the Inca maiden. that has like your knees pulled up to.

her chest and she looks like she's. sleeping, but she was sacrificed 500. years ago. I mean, like, it did happen, but the idea that it was widespread or. that they like drank babies blood or. that kind of stuff, that was the. exaggeration that really kind of were. smears. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I finally. watched the other day, uh, it was about. a month ago, I guess, the the Mel. Gibson, uh, Apocalyptto. Yeah. I'd never seen that. for some reason. I finally watched it. How was it? Did you see it? No, but I've.

seen the scene that made you think of. that. Uh, you know, it was it was pretty good. you know, I'm uh I'm not like a. championing Mel Gibson, of course, but. uh I just hadn't seen that movie and I. had a I guess Emily was clearly not with. me and I was like, "Oh, I've got a. window." And it popped up and I was. like, "You know what? I never saw that. Let me check it out." Um very gross and. gory in its depictions, but uh you know, it it was okay. Yeah, Mel Gibson is. basically into snuff porn, right? Like.

he loves that stuff. Have you ever seen. We Were Soldiers? Uh, I did not see. that, but that's supposed to be pretty. gory, too, right? It's one of the most. violent Yeah. goriest war movies I've. ever seen in my life. Yeah. And I've. seen The Guns of Navaron. Yeah. Oh, was that Telly Savalis? No. He was. in The Dirty Dozen. That's what you're. thinking. Yeah, that was good. Or forced. in from Nabon. Was he in that one, too? Or just I don't know if he was in that. one. He was definitely in the Dirty.

Dozen. That was a great one. Yeah. Uh, all right. All right, we're getting away. from off topic here, though, because we. need to talk about idol worship and tree. worship. That's another pretty common. element in a lot of different pagan. religions. Um, you know, it's right. there in the Ten Commandments. Do not. worship false idols. Idolatry was a big. no no to Christians. And that's. basically any physical representation of. a god or a spirit. Uh, we usually, you. know, growing up Baptist thought of as. like statues and stuff from biblical. stories, but it can be a rock or. something. Uh, and then trees. trees are.

big in many many most uh pagan. religions. They love their trees. Yeah, they love them for sure. Um so yeah, those are some high points or basics I. guess is a better way to put it of. ancient pagan religions. And because as. we said before, there's not a really a. lot that survived from the ancients to. today, a lot of that stuff has been um. gleaned by archaeologists, anthropologists. And um it's from that.

base of knowledge that modern pagans. draw from to create the newer versions. of the pagan religions. Yeah. Uh it. feels like a break time, right? Yeah, I. guess so. All right, we'll take a break. and we'll come back and talk about uh. when Christianity decided that's it. We're going to change the narrative. right after this. [Music].

All right. So, we promised talk of. Christianity stamping out paganism or or. trying to at least. And that started. with Constantine who was the first Roman. emperor to convert to Christianity uh. officially. Um, I think you sort of. hinted earlier that Christianity was a. pretty smallish persecuted uh sect of.

people at first. Mhm. Uh, until. Constantine came along and said, "Actually, I'm Christian now." And, uh, all the other Roman elites were like, "Well, if Constantine, the emperor, is. Christian, then maybe we should look. into this a little more." Right? And so, the tide turned on pagans basically. right out of the gate. But Constantine. himself didn't do anything to persecute. He didn't use his official position as. emperor to persecute um pagans. Yeah. He. dipped his toe in the pool publicly.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So um actually I. think he was fully immersed in the. baptismal font instead. Well, yeah. Uh. his son though went full boore after um. pagans and outlawed paganism. He passed. the first laws. Constantinius. Constantius. Yeah. Not Constantinople. Constantius. Yes. Yeah. Um he passed the. first laws that that made paganism and. practices of paganism illegal. Um it was.

basically amounted to any public. displays of paganism were outlawed. But. not too long after a couple of decades, his successor Theodosius. Um he said. Christianity is the state religion of. the Roman Empire and if you do anything. pagan, including in your own home, um. like you're you're toast. Don't let us. see you go anywhere near a chicken or. you're in big trouble. And they said, "What is toast?" And they went, "You.

know when your bread gets too close to. the fire and it tastes better? That's I. hadn't tried that.". Uh so Christianity is on the rise and um. they started to stamp out pagan. religions all over the Roman Empire. through the laws that you mentioned and. uh through uh a pretty brilliant plan. which was uh literally demonizing them. Uh I never really have thought about. that word much until this as like you. know that demon is the root there right. uh but that's literally what they did. they were like uh you know what uh.

everyone that you're have been. worshiping they are the devil in. disguise right like the literal devil. Satan yes um and they actually took some. of the uh the existing gods and just. basically copy pasted them into the. conception of the devil of Satan. Uh and again keep in mind here these. these pagan religions they don't have. anything even approximating Satan that. like gods can be good or evil protective.

or um dangerous but there's no like one. evil yeah um polar foil to God because. there is no one god. It's not dual. It's. plural. That's that's part of pagan. religion, right? So, it's ironic that. they're like, "Your god is Satan." And. they're like, "Which one?" They're like, "The one with the horns, the one with. the antlers, right?" And so, that's. that's basically how the modern. conception of Satan came along. And so, basically, any god would just be equated.

with evil, with a demon, with Satan. himself. And if you were caught. practicing this now, you started to risk. being killed by the people in charge. Yeah. Dave found this one uh pretty. prominent Celtic god uh. Cernunos. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. C E R N U N. in N. It's like it's a Yeah, it's like a. mashup of Michael Sarah, John Cena, and. John Cenounu.

Uh yeah, sir. Uh man, I almost said it. wrong again. Cernos was, like I said, a. prominent Celtic god and had it was the. antler god. had antlers and they they. basically look back now and say between. cernunos and the Greek god Pan um like. it's not a far leap to go from antlers. to horns and that was basically the. probably the model for the Christian. devil that uh you know once they decided. hey we're just going to be binary from. now on right but the cernunos was.

wearing antlers because they were they. indicated protectiveness not necessarily. of humans but of the forest uh in the. countryside and you could be in Cern. Nunos's good graces by taking care of. those things or you could run a foul of. Sir Nunos and if you say just stepped on. a bunch of docks for no good reason. Yeah. Um but that but he became Satan. eventually or he was one of the ones. I. think they went basically local religion. by local religion and identified who.

could be Satan and then demonized them. and all the others. Yeah, that makes. sense. It's like who do they identify. with? Like who's going to scare them? Exactly. Yeah. So now because your god, your ancient pagan god is Satan. Um if. you are caught worshiping that god or. any god and or any kind of polytheistic. pagan religion, you're now in league. with the devil. And again, you can be. put to death for that kind of thing. And. that developed into witch trials, the. Inquisition, all sorts of terrible stuff.

that was essentially the Christian. church persecuting in an effort to stamp. out. Uh it's like any local rival. religions. Yeah. Well, stamp out is one. thing they did. And you know, with the. Christian armies and colonialism and. missionaries, that was what they were. doing all over the West. Uh and then. what they couldn't stamp out or or I. don't know if it was what they couldn't. stamp out, but they were stamping out. everything they wanted to. And then they. also said, "But actually this Halloween. and Christmas and Easter are pretty.

fun." Uh, and those are pagan, you know, based. So, we're just going to tweak. those and make them our own because who. who doesn't like uh Halloween? Yeah. Everybody likes Halloween. Uh, which. started out as sin as we'll see. I think. we've talked about that probably 15. times. Yeah. Um, you know what I think. actually triggered this um me thinking. of this topic? What movie? Uh, no, it. was Easter. Um, I was thinking about I. happened to be up and out around sunrise.

on Easter and I it reminded me as a kid. being raised Catholic of going to. sunrise mass in Easter and I was like, dude, you're standing there celebrating. a religious service, watching the sun. rise on a specific day in the spring. Like, it is so pagan-based and it's in. in like in every single way. I think. even Easter is like a a shift or an. adaptation of like O Stair, which I. believe was one of the um polytheistic.

pagan gods. Yeah. Like it was it's just. there out in the open basically. And. that made me wonder about the whole. thing. Yeah. You know, growing up uh in. Stone Mountain, Georgia, the the most. dedicated would hike up Stone Mountain. in the in the dead of night to go to the. sunrise service on top of Stone. Mountain. Yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah. So. they they were basically stamping with. one foot, giving back rubs with the. other with their hands. Stamp, stamp, rub, rub. That's what the Christians did. to basically win the PR war um of the.

religions and take over essentially. Yeah. Um if you if you're looking at the. pagan comeback, which we're going to get. into now, uh you can go back to the. Renaissance when they said, "Hey, the. Greek and Roman uh philosophers and all. those books they were writing." It's. like super interesting. We're into that. stuff again. And we have the printing. press now, so we can really print this. stuff up and disseminate it. And there. were Renaissance painters painting all. these amazing romantic uh paintings of.

like mythological creatures and gods. Uh. and then the Enlightenment came along. and said, "Renaissa, hold my me." So. yeah, the Enlightenment was like in in a. couple of strange ways. It was really. fertile ground for um like an interest. in paganism to come along. For one, uh. the enlightenment thinkers just. essentially as a first step just. rejected Christianity and monotheism in. particular. And they also were like, I.

really like the philosophy of these. ancient Greeks and ancient Romans. They. were polytheistic. Maybe I could be too. So it kind of aroused like an. intellectual interest in that. Yeah. But. it also um it created an interest in in. paganism in a different way too because. the enlightenment created such rational. thinking that some people were kind of. repelled by it and they're like I'm. going to go seek answers and purpose in. nature instead. And that you probably.

more than anything is how the. enlightenment led to an interest in. paganism. Yeah. And I also thought it. was super interesting how much the arts. played into all this. You know, I. mentioned the Renaissance painters uh. but also uh romantic poets. Like you. can't read Werdsworth and Keats and. Shelley without like wanting to go out. into the woods and like be among nature. Uh they were very um just very moving. poems about the the world the natural. world around us uh and the sort of. unseen magic in nature. Yeah. You've.

never wanted to take your clothes off in. the woods, read some Keats, right? see how you feel after that. I'm not a. I'm not a big naked in the I'm not a big. naked guy period. I think it's been. established, but probably because of the. Baptist upbringing, but I feel too. vulnerable out there in the woods. Yeah. No, I get that. There's mosquitoes and. beetles and those worms that crawl up. your pee hole. Yeah, I'll just uh you. can find me in my skiibbies at least. Are you a never nude? Yeah, I shower in.

a in a bathing suit in um cut off jeans. Yeah, the cut off. Oh man, so great. Uh. what else? Oh. Oh, there was another. thing that kind of created I it it might. have grown out of this interest. essentially. Um like kind of scholarship. on paganism. Yeah. Some was good. Some. was the kind of stuff that you would. equate with finding on the History. Channel today. You know, that was in the. article and we talked about it a little. bit offline. I I did not know. I don't.

watch enough History Channel. I thought. the History Channel was just like we. used to call it the War channel because. it was always just black and white World. War II documentaries, but I know there. is another side of the History Channel. where with the Alien Sky like did they. have a lot of that kind of stuff? I. think it's pretty much all. Yeah. That is it really? Okay. Yeah, pretty much. And I think it has been. that way for a really long time. And I. mean, not to bag on the History Channel. It's interesting, but um I guess what.

I'm equating it to. is really interesting unsupported. theories that like if you're an actual. scientist and you look into it, you're. like this is just made up. They're. trying to make entertaining television. basically. Yes. But the problem is is. they present it factually and it gets. taken factually by a lot of people. So. they've caused a lot of problems. They. essentially have ruined the world. single-handedly. The History Channel. has. Well, I'm glad I know this because. I'm gonna stop saying well the History. Channel said I would stop that. Yeah. Uh.

but yeah, there were a couple of key. people that came out of this uh that you. kind of referenced. Um one was a guy. named James Frasier. He was an. anthropologist who wrote a book, very. influential book in 1890 called The. Golden Bow. B U I'm sorry. Yeah, U. W. Jesus, what's going on with me? B O U G. H. I'm going with bow. It's pronounced. bo. I think that's a History Channel. type argument.

It it Okay, we're not gonna argue with. this because who cares, but uh that's. the way it's spelled. And his argument. was that, you know, all religions. basically uh go back to this one pagan. myth about a king uh that was sacrificed. to bless the land with fertility. And. you can kind of trace them all back back. to this. Yeah. And so modern historians. have said that's a great theory, Frasier, but you're it's not correct. Frasier is not a history channel type.

He was a legitimate anthropologist. And. one of the reasons the golden bow bow. figures in is that he did an amazing. amount of exhaustive research uh that in. the book he describes a lot of ancient. pagan traditions and beliefs and stuff. So, the Golden Bow became kind of like a. handbook for the modern pagan movements. that followed. Do you know what I feel. like inserting here? What? The way that you pronounce the word be o. like why did they get count Dracula to.

Who is that guy? I I don't know. What. was this? Like a book on tape you heard. once or No, no, no. This is the YouTube. guy. When you look up. pronunciations one gentleman that talks. like he came from Transylvania. Yeah, he. really does, doesn't he? I never thought. about it. He's great. Well, now this is. saying bow, but I looked it up earlier. and it said bow. Okay. Bow. Bow. Bow. I. don't know if I believe that lady. Like. when the bow breaks. Wouldn't you just. sit up and tell your mom that she got it.

wrong if she's saying when the bow. breaks? Yeah. I've always said bow, but. you know, maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe the. internet's wrong. That'd be a first. How. about B? Yeah. What's that? B. When the. B breaks. Uh, and then there is a History Channel. type person that we should talk about, the Egyptologist Margaret Murray. Um, she was she's definitely on that side of. things, right? Yeah. She came up in the. Bella and the Witch Elm episode because. she was saying like Bella was murdered. by a witch cult, right? and she's one of.

the people who argued that the the. modern European witches trace their. lineage unbroken back to a fertility. feminist cult that's been in the British. Isles ever since time and memorial. And. that that's one of the things that's. been debunked is that it's just not. true. like the Christian church uh and. in their turn Judaism and Islam as well. did such a thorough job of interrupting.

the transmission from the ancient world. to the modern world that it's just like. that's just not really possible. Now. that's not to say that like in certain. like super you know rural local areas. there's like not folk traditions that. actually do date back really far. Um, I. mean, everybody's seen Wicker Man, but. the thing is like like Wicker Man would. be actually a bad example because that. like is an actual ritual. Um, they knew.

exactly what they were doing. They were. performing rights, that kind of stuff. This would be more like, hey, we're. dancing around the maple, but we don't. necessarily know every single thing. that's going on. um we're not performing. every single aspect of this ancient. ritual even though the ritual in some. form or fashion still survive to today. It's not the. full the full um monty. It's not the. full monty of the actual pagan folk. religion that they're they're kind of. venerating still. Yeah. Does that make.

sense? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Should we. take our second break? Yeah. All right. We're going to take that break and we're. going to move into the world of modern. paganism. Right after. [Music]. this la.

[Music]. Well, by the way, Chuck, uh, Yumi and I. have a friend named Alex Mary who's an. artist, and she does something called, um, Morris dancing, and a lot of the. Morris dances like like resemble. paganism. Like, uh, there's sometimes. there's antlers and stuff like that, but. it also more than anything reminds me of. stuff they would have done in that A24. movie, Midsummer. Mhm. Um, and it's.

basically like folk dancing that dates. back to like the 15th century and. probably before, but they can definitely. trace it back that far. I was asking her. about paganism. She's like, "Nope, not a. pagan. I'm a Morris dancer.". That's super cool. Uh, and not to get. off topic, but since you brought up A24, I just have to shout out their newest. weird comedy from Tim uh Robinson. Oh, yeah. Uh, actually not from Tim. Robinson. He's in it. But, uh, the movie. Friendship, I can highly recommend. And, uh, I went to the opening 11:00 a.m.

screening in Atlanta, and my friend is, cuz you love Tim Robinson, you'll be. glad to know at Fipps Plaza at 11:00. a.m. on a Friday, there were probably 25. to 30 like Tim Robinson fans in there. Nice. At that first showing, was it. rowdy? It Yeah. You know, it's been a. long time since I've seen a crowded And. it was crowded because it was probably a. 50 person theater, so it was 70% full. Mhm. uh a crowded like movie with other. people like a comedy where just a bunch.

of people are laughing at once and it. was so much fun. That's awesome, man. It. was great. I wish I could have gone. I. wish you could have gone too. Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, are you talking about what? Modern paganism. Yeah. So, we mentioned, you know, in several different ways that. modern paganism is its own thing. One of. the reasons why it's its own thing is. because they just didn't write down a. lot of stuff back then. and stuff that. was written down. It wasn't like the. literal detailed handbook of how to do. this ritual or this, right? Yeah. It's.

pretty rare. Yeah. So, that's one of the. reasons. And it was all stamped out. Um, some of the stuff that we've gotten. modern-wise comes from these Icelandic. or maybe all of it, these Icelandic. texts called the Edas. Is that right? Yeah. As far as Norse um religions, Norse pagan religions that fall under. the umbrella term heathenism, this is. where they get all their stuff. Yeah. I. don't know if it's ordas. But I think I. I agreed too soon. Okay. Okay. Maybe. that and then the Viking sagas. And so.

the Viking sagas aren't like you said, it's not a handbook of how to worship. Norse gods, but just mentions of it like. like um uh incidental references to. stuff like that. The neopagans who. worship Norse gods have kind of taken. that, gleaned from that what some of. these rituals and and thoughts and. mythologies were. Yeah. Um, and we're. not going to talk about all modern pagan. religions, but we're going to mention a, you know, we're going to highlight a. few. Uh, we have to talk briefly at. least about the hermetic order of the.

Golden Dawn. But again, if you want to. hear a lot about that, listen to our. Alistister, a really good episode, I. think, Alistister Crowley episode. Yeah. Uh, this was the secret society that. Alistister Crowley was a member of. Uh, he was never the leader, right? Or was. he just sort of a I think he did break. off and try to become a leader at some. point. I don't remember. Yeah, maybe I. should go back and listen to it. I don't. remember either. But their whole thing, the reason we mentioned them is they. were probably the first what you could. consider modern pagan religion. They.

practiced magic and they were into the. um Egyptian occult stuff. So that's why. we bring them up. There's I don't think. there's too many Golden Dawn people. running around, but I guarantee there. are some. Yeah, there's got to be. What. about Wikah? Yeah. Uh we talked about. Wika in our witchcraft episode. Um, that. was from a long time I think ago though, so it it may not be our best work. No, I. would that's one that would probably be. pretty good to redo someday. We're not. going to redo stuff, are we? Okay, fine.

No. Uh, modern witchcraft or or wikah. wa. Uh originally it was WICA as named. by a guy named uh Gerald Gardner who was. a British customs official who worked in. Malaysia then came back to England in. 1936 wrote a bunch of Golden Dawn stuff. a bunch of Alistister Crowley stuff a. bunch of Margaret Murray stuff our. history channel lady and he said you. know what one night 1939 a coven of. witches uh initiated me uh and they were.

members of this ancient fertility cult. that uh I read about from Margaret. Murray. Yeah. So, it depends on who you talk to. Um, Gardner might either be um described. as a hu. um very gentle man. I saw somebody. describe him who knew him as utterly. without malice who who may have made all. this up. But he he was known for writing. um what's called the book of shadows. which has become a big part of um the.

Wiccan religion which is essentially a. personal um recipe book of spells and. rituals that is has worked for a. particular witch or coven and sometimes. it's shared and people can borrow from. it and add to it and they create their. own book of shadows. But having your own. basically you know in those um Bugs. Bunny cartoons where that witch is like. looking through her book. Mhm. That. would technically be a book of shadows. that she's looking through to find like. the ingredients for her potions or.

whatever. That's a pretty literally. cartoonish um depiction of it, but. that's, you know, essentially what she. was doing. My favorite part is when she. would uh leave the frame very quickly. and her hair pins would fall out of her. hair and float in the air. She was one. of the most disturbing cartoon. characters of all time if you ask me, man. Yeah. like she was she had that. high-pitched voice. And didn't she have. like kind of a red cousin it type who. wore like tennis shoes? He was a little.

offputting as well. I don't remember. that, but if I saw it, I'd probably know. it. Yeah. So, yeah, the witch from Bugs. Bunny. That's right. Uh, but back to. Wiccans, they uh became very popular in. the 60s and 70s uh with the the feminist. set and uh the environmentalist set. And. they're still the Gerald Gardner. focused. Um they call it Gardenarian. Wikah. Uh but if you if you're out at. the 7-Eleven and you meet a modern. Wikcan.

um she's probably practicing what's. called Dianic Wikah, which is uh it's. more woman- centered. It came around in. 1971 by a Wiccan activist name uh not. Susanna, but Susanna Budapest. Great. name. Yeah. And it wasn't until 200 I. think 15 that Susanna Budapest um. indoctrinated her first male clergy. member into Dianic Wikah and other. Dianic Wika temples split off. And so. it's it's rare to find a man in this um.

in this religion like it's all women. And I read that they're antiat. patriarchy. They actually try to use. their magic against the patriarchy but. they're not anti-male. The reason that. they exclude males is because their. religion is created to um to celebrate. and honor the life cycles, the. biological cycles in a lot of um cases. of a woman as she's born and then ages. and then dies and that essentially. there's not a lot of role for men in.

that religion. But yeah, you know, you. guys go form your own stuff. Go become. druids, I think, is their motto. Yeah. And here's a little uh dinner. party factoid. If someone brings up. Wiccan around the table, you can say, "Hey, did you know that it was actually. first recognized as a true religion in. 1986 in the United States when the. Supreme Court ruled in Detmer v. Landon?" You don't have to know that. part, but you could really knock their. socks off if you do. Okay. Uh it was. where a prisoner was denied the use of.

ritual uh ritual Wiccan objects and. they're like, "Hey, this is my my. religious stuff and the first amendment. protects this." And the Supreme Court. said, "You know what? You're right.". Yeah. Probably a liberal court, right? Um, one other thing I got to say, I ran. across the UK finally suspended their. witchcraft laws, their bans against. practicing witchcraft in 1951, which is why Gerald Gardner's books. start popping up in the 50s, even though.

he'd been doing this since the late 30s. Wow. Isn't that interesting? like he. could have been arrested and thrown in. prison for practicing witchcraft before. 1951. Wow. Uh all right. So those were s. sort of the big heavy hitters that uh. were the first big ones that uh of. modern paganism when it staged its. comeback but there are dozens of other. uh smaller much smaller modern pagan. movements. Um, wick is definitely the. largest, but uh, heathenry is one of. them, which is basically a a umbrella.

term for people who um, like you. mentioned the Norse and Germanic. deities, right? Uh, they're really into. Marvel, I guess. Uh, Marvel and um, Lord. of the Rings, like if you thought Led. Zeppelin was into Lord of the Rings, man, introduce yourself to a heathen. Like they are into that stuff. Lot of. Valhalla. Yeah. And I think the two. biggest Germanic um uh. heathen religions actually I guess I. don't even think they're sex but um one.

is uh esatru. Yeah. Uh they worship the. acier gods who would be the the highest. of the pantheon of north norse mythology. like Odin and Thor. And so people who. are into Asatru are very much into honor. and valor and getting into Valhalla. Um, and then there's the Vanitru, which. they're concerned with the Veneer gods, who are the rest of the gods who are. more earthy, more nature-based, they're. into prosperity, that kind of stuff. Um,

and I think there's way more than. Vanitru right now. Um, and then one. other thing about heathenism, uh, there's a really interesting like kind. of side history that you can go look up. about the black metal scene, specifically the Norwegian black metal. scene that essentially turned into um, turned their focus from Satanism, like. traditional metal, to heathenry. And so. you've got like folk metal, Viking. metal. Um like they essentially just.

became heathens but metal and it just. got really out of hand in the early 90s. It was really interesting stuff. Well, yeah. And I don't know if we could get a. whole episode out of this. We probably. could or maybe a short stuff, but there. was the very famous case of um well, there were there were these series of. arson, these church arson, like 20 of. them. uh these these very very old. wooden medieval churches in Norway that. were burned down. Uh I think 20 of them. were attributed uh these arson were.

attributed to black metal fans and a. couple of the arsonists uh were very. prominent in the early Norwegian black. metal scene. Uh these guys uh they were. bandmates at first in this band Mayhem, but I think Varg uh Vikeres sure he left. Mayhem at a certain point, but uh. Uranimus is how this guy's known. Uh. Ostein Artha. uh Uranomous I think stayed in this.

group black metal group Mayhem for the. run until he was murdered by Var. Yeah. And they they didn't exactly like set. paganism's general public image on fire. Um well actually they kind of did. Yeah. Yeah. Arth was a Satanist. Um Vices is. in addition to being a murderer, he's a. a vowed neo-Nazi. Um and that whole. scene in particular kind of gets caught. up with nationalism a lot. So it's not a. very representative. um picture of paganism as a whole or.

neopaganism as a whole. But it's still I. mean it's just ridiculously interesting. what happened there. Yeah, totally. It's. worth mentioning I guess. Yeah, I. remember when this happened and I just I. didn't know much about I still don't. know much about that whole music scene, but it's it's super interesting. My. cousin is into it. Yeah. Um I was. checking a lot of it out and some of. it's really good. I'm not into folk. metal though at all. What is folk? What. is that? What's it sound like? It's.

um you know that kind of like super. proud Irish music that's like rock from. like Boston. Imagine that is like metal. or almost almost Yeah. Or no um the the. So yes, that that Irish like rock does. from Boston. This is like the Norwegian. metal version of that. Okay. Yeah. I. I'll listen to something. See see what. it does to me. Okay. Just look up folk. metal and you'll you'll see. But some of. the other stuff is really good. Um like.

Mayhem stuff was pretty interesting. What if this changed my life and set me. on a course that one would never have. expected here? 54 years old. You start. wearing corpse makeup. Yeah, maybe get. some antlers. Yeah, why not, man? Why. not? Like really ask yourself why not do. that? I mean, no. No, it's no crazier. than any of the rest of them if you ask. me. Yeah. Yeah. Uh you mentioned druids. earlier kind of in passing but that is. uh a modern um belief system that is. tied to pre-Christian.

um British Isle sort of religion. That's. where the druids came from. Right. Yeah. And I saw that druids are um a big. difference between them and others is. that that nature itself is the divine. It's not like a manifestation of God or. the goddesses or anything like it's. nature. And I also saw that they the. practitioners don't really consider it a. religion. They consider it more a. philosophy or a way of life. Yeah. And. it's it was uh modern druidry was. started by a guy named Ross Nichols. And.

I don't know why. I just find it funny. that like the modern druids and and. modern Wiccans were were started by guys. named Ross and Gerald. Yeah. Isn't that. a little weird? Yeah. They sound like a. couple of guys who might live in a van. together. They might. Who knows? Uh. there's also ceremonial magic which. would trace itself to I guess the um. golden dawn. Uh there's neopaganism. which we should talk about because a lot. of people use neopaganism as a term. incorrectly to describe modern paganism.

which is what we've been talking about. this whole time. Neopaganism itself is a. specific kind of um pagan religion. So. all neopagans are pagan but all pagans. aren't neopagans. And if you basically. want to just come at this by saying, "I. like a little of this. I like a little. of that. Oh, I I would like to do a. little bit of ritual magic. Yes, I want. to go out in the woods and practice all. this stuff." Then neopaganism is for. you. It is wide open. They believe that.

everybody's beliefs are equal. Um, they're very much opposed to the idea of. absolute good and evil. They're very. into nature. It's pretty much, I think, what people think about when they think. about modern pagan religions. And that's. neopaganism. Yes. All right. And if you. want to know more about that, there's a. great site called. neo-paganism.org. They seem to be pretty. authoritative on it. They should be with. that website. That'd be a real shame if. they weren't. Yeah. Right. It's in comic.

sand. And just one other thing about. neopaganism. Um, I think I said that a. lot of people that's what they think of, but they might be saying Wikah when. they're talking about neopaganism. There's big differences between those. two. Wikah is very magicalbased. The. intent is to harness the power of nature. to get something done, like get a a job. successfully or um make someone fall in. love with you, whatever. Um, and Wikah. is very much esoteric. So that means.

that there's a a set amount of knowledge. out there. there's hidden mystery. knowledge in the universe that if you. are an initiate into Wikah like you have. to be initiated into a coven um and you. apply yourself and work and study and. you can have these mysteries of the. universe revealed to you not at all what. neopagans believe um there's just a ton. of differences but I mean if any of this. has floated your boat you're like I I. really want to check this out there's a.

lot of stuff on the internet uh that you. can go read up on. I would just say use. your your just general common sense to. decide what site you're on is whether. it's legitimate or authoritative or if. it's just some dude making stuff up. Got. to have the right font where you know. you're in trouble. Exactly. It's dead. giveaway. You also mentioned a great. band name in there. Hidden mystery. knowledge. That's a good one. I feel. like that's more an album though. Okay. And you better believe they're going to.

have some Lord of the Rings character as. the illustration. True. Uh well, if you. want to know more about that stuff, like. I said, go out on the internet and uh. since I said that and Chuck had just. said true, that means that it's time for. listener. mail. I'm going to call this a popcorn. cooking tip I'm surprised I haven't. thought of. Oh, okay. Hey guys, writing. uh because I want to tell you about my. favorite way to cook popcorn in bacon. grease. Oh, yeah. I've heard of that. I. hadn't heard of it. It's just right.

there in front of my face, too. You got. bacon grease in front of your face? Yeah, I do. Uh, my aunt taught me her. tried and true method for cooking. popcorn on the stove top. She puts a. spoonful of bacon grease in a skillet, pours a popcorn salt over the grease. Oh, boy. Pops a couple of kernels in. there and uh heats the whole thing up. And when the grease is at the right. temperature, those kernels are going to. pop and alert you. You can start. cooking. You pour in the rest of the. kernels, cover your skillet, and let it. pop away. The baking grease gives the. popcorn a little extra flavor. It really. makes it even more delicious. You should. give it a try sometime. Just don't.

forget to cover your skillet. Okay. Uh, thanks for all the years of podcasting. listening pleasure you've provided for. me. I wish you both the best. That is. from Randy with an I. Thanks a lot, Randy with an I. That's Did Did Randy. sign the I with a little heart instead. of a dot? Cuz that'd be fantastic. Yeah. Uh, thanks a lot, Randy. That was a. great tip. We appreciate it. I'm quite. sure everybody who loves popcorn and. bacon that's listening appreciated that. And if you want to be like Randy and. send us a tip that everybody can. appreciate, you can send it off to.

stuffodcast@. [Music]. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know. is a production of iHeart Radio. For. more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the. iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or. wherever you listen to your favorite. shows. [Music].