Our Big Fat Dream Episode | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh [music] and there's Chuck and. there's Jerry. And this could not be. more of a good old-fashioned stuff you. should know episode. Um, if [music] it. tried. >> That's right. I think you're right. >> Yeah. Think about all [music] the. elements here. All three of us are. present. >> Mhm. I just uh had a kind of an awkward.

intro. >> Oh yeah, >> this is the main topic that we've done. like five subtopics on already, but we. didn't do the main topic yet. This is a. straight ahead stuff you should know. classic episode. >> Yeah. And watch this. I'm going to have. a little surprise for you and the. audience. >> You ready? >> Yeah. >> All right. It is 101 on the dot. I was. having a dream six minutes ago.

>> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> What What was it? >> Well, I don't know, but I I scheduled my. nap uh to happen right before we. recorded, which I I do sometimes. >> Mhm. >> And I have my my clock set for 12:55. >> Mhm. >> And it was kind of one of those naps. where I was like, am I even sleeping or. am I just getting good rest? I can't. tell if I'm asleep. >> Right. And then I could I could tell I. was having a dream and all of a sudden. my alarm went off and I woke up,

splashed my face. >> Okay. >> Came down and here you are. [laughter]. >> Are you sure you're not still dreaming? Have you done a reality test? >> Oh, no. That's a good That's a good uh. call. >> cuz I You could still be dreaming. I. don't feel quite right. >> Oh. [laughter]. Uh yeah. I can't remember the dream, but. when I woke up, I was like, "Oh, this. will be funny because I'm going to be. recording in 5 minutes and everyone's. probably going to be knocked out by the. fact that I was literally just dreaming. minutes ago.". >> I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will.

Even more impressive, Jerry is dreaming. now, >> right? Yeah. I woke up. She fell asleep. >> So, uh, yeah, we're talking about. dreams. Chuck, do you typically have. dreams? Do you often remember them? Do. you never remember them? Are they. nightmares? Uh, what's the deal? Uh, no. nightmares. I used to have recurring. dreams when I was a kid. >> About what? >> Uh, I had a very specific recurring. dream about Gilligan's Island many times. when I was a kid. >> Okay. >> That was a little bit of a a scary. dream. I don't think it would qualify as.

a nightmare per definition. >> Um, >> I could see Lovey Howell being like. drunk, like being overly friendly, doing. that to you as a kid. Uh but yeah, I. mean I still remember like I remembered. my dream this morning when I woke up uh. because I woke up right after it. happened and it was kind of a funny. thing Emily did in the dream. So I was. like I just had this dream. It was kind. of funny. >> Can you share or. >> Oh, sure. I mean people sharing dreams. is the most boring thing ever. So.

>> yeah, >> I'll I'll give the most condensed. version is we were in New York going to. some. >> some weird exclusive like uh. >> um art opening event or something. interactive. I don't even know what it. was. It doesn't matter. And there were. celebrities there and we went in a few. times cuz we figured out there was a. back way to get in. And when we walked. in, we were walking by people and Emily. was like, "Hey, I think that's that girl. from that movie. What was it?" And I was. trying to find out. And then we passed.

Rachel DR, actor Rachel Dr. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> And she looked up cuz she thought like. they were talk we were talking about her. and Emily went, "Oh, not you. I know you. Stephanie." And kept walking. [laughter]. >> That's a pretty good dream actually. >> Yeah. And I told Emily that she just. cracked up. >> Rachel D, man. >> Yeah. She's the best. >> That's out of nowhere. She is great. Um, have you seen. >> Or go ahead. What's your question? Well, I was going to say, have you seen the. movie um Oh, I don't remember what it's.

called, but where Nicholas Cage starts. appearing in like everyone in the. world's dreams? >> I haven't seen that yet. I heard it's. pretty good. >> It is. It's actually really good. Um. especially as far as like, you know, a. standard Nick Cage movie these days. goes. >> Yeah. Well, there's a lot of them. What. about you? Do you dream dream and. remember your dreams typically? Uh, I. dream and I remember them enough to um. to just kind of give like general. outlines of them or know that like that. was unpleasant or that was stressful or.

that was weird. But, you know, like. >> I have such trouble like relating. thoughts and ideas normally that when I. try to do it with dream stuff, it makes. it it's just a big mess. So, I'm not. even going to try. They very frequently. have to do with like me having to like. um get get this thing done over here and. then this thing has to be done over here. and I also have to make sure that all. these people are comfortable too. It's. like it can get kind of tiring. sometimes. >> Yeah, I'm I sort of have the same thing.

My most recurring dream now isn't a. specific thing, but it's a specific. motif which is I'm trying to get. somewhere and I can't get there. Oh yeah, I could see that. >> Like a plane flight or I'm supposed to. be at a at a place or whatever and and I. keep getting derailed and that that. happens. I had that dream all the time. now. >> Okay, that is extremely interesting. I. think that's worth um looking into. So, we'll we'll we'll revisit that because. it comes up in a couple of places like. you just you just tapped a couple of.

different dream components on the head. with that. >> Yeah. And then when I was younger, and. then we'll start the show, I I used to. always have the uh and this is like in. my 20s, the the teeth shattering or. teeth falling out dreams. >> Okay, we'll talk about that, too. >> Yeah. >> The last one I have to share, uh it's a. recurring dream. It starts out really. nice. It's a a beautiful woman, totally. naked, >> and then as I look up higher and higher, it's the head of Abraham Lincoln.

>> [laughter]. >> You should just I don't know. Don't go. all the way to the head. >> Do you uh do you get the reference. though from uh Daz and Confused? >> Uh no. I do remember that though now. that you mention it. >> Yeah. One of the friends is like. probably best not to look too deeply. into that [laughter] one. >> That's right. Anthony Rap uh in that. scene. That's right. >> Yeah. So uh yeah, I've never had that. dream. Uh, that would be pretty weird, you know. >> I bought it because I'm just still.

waking up, you know. >> Sure. Um, so Charles, we're talking. about dreaming and you can't really talk. about dreaming unless you talk about. sleeping. So, let's do a brief overview. And we've done a bunch of episodes on. sleep, so we'll just kind of keep it. short. >> Yeah. Uh, as far as the stages of sleep, you're right. We've we've covered this a. lot, but the first three stages are non. rapid eye movement sleep in REMM sleep. >> Mhm. >> And then after stage three, and it. depends on the person, but you know, about an hour and a half or two hours. after you go to sleep,

>> uh you're supposed to fall into sleep. >> Sure. >> Rapid eye movement sleep. And this is. where generally you're going to be. dreaming. And they used to think you. only dream during sleep, but now they. know that you can dream in both. But. sleep is like where you have like the. most intense dreams, the ones you're. more likely to remember, that kind of. thing. >> Yeah. And we didn't really know aboutm. sleep until the 50s. I was surprised to. find that out. Um but when we did. discover sleep, people are like, "Oh,

okay. There's different components to. sleep. We need to start looking into. that." And your body does all sorts of. interesting things. But the one really. important aspect about sleep is in. addition to like this is where you have. your dreams dreams. Mhm. >> Um you are paralyzed essentially. Um you. and they think the reason why is so you. don't act out your dreams physically. because you're experiencing them as. reality otherwise. And that it's. possible that your eyes are moving.

during rapid eye movement sleep because. you're dreaming, right? >> They thought for a long time that you. were looking at different things in your. dreams with your eyes in physical. reality while you were sleeping. And uh. they just couldn't prove it. And there. were a couple of studies that were like, "Actually, I think that's true.". >> Yeah. But I I don't think they they. didn't prove it though, did they? >> No. But so like they cracked open the. heads of poor little mice and they. figured out how to look at what they. called basically the the the eye.

directional cells and they found that. they were in sync with where the mouse's. eyes were looking at any point during. sleep. strongly suggests that. >> what did the mice say about what they. were dreaming about. >> they they just said me. >> okay. >> they're like a beaker from the Muppets. it turns out. >> oh beaker I love beaker. >> and then the other study that I think it. was really interesting was they got with. some lucid dreamers and they said hey we. want you to in your dream we want you to.

imagine you're looking at a circle and. then we want you to trace a circle with. your thumb and look at that in your. dreams and the lucid dreamers were so. good they were ble to do this. And they. found that when the lucid dreamers were. imagining the circle in their dreams, their eyes moved in kind of a stuttery. step movement in the circle. >> that we would normally see in when. someone was awake and imagining it. When. they looked at their thumb, their dream. thumb, their eyes moved smoothly like it.

does in waking life when we're actually. looking at something. >> Your dream thumb. >> Dream thumb's pretty. >> We said a lot. something. >> dumb things over the years, but. >> your dream. >> dream thumbs up there. >> Thanks, ma'am. >> I love it. Uh, as far as how like we're. going to talk a lot about dreams and. whether or not everyone dreams and we. don't know for sure like they think. everyone dreams. >> Sure. >> And that some people just may not. remember as well as others and we'll. kind of dig into that a little bit, but. they do think that people generally.

dream multiple times a night. um they. don't know exactly how long they last. And you know, the reason why obviously. all this stuff is is because someone's. asleep and you know, you can't do a. study where someone like hits a timer. when a dream starts. They can just kind. of go by hooking them up to machines and. surmising whether or not they're. dreaming, >> right? >> Um so you can't get like actual, you. know, dead evidence about it. But they. do think you dream multiple times a. night and they last a few minutes, maybe. up to a half an hour. And they think you.

probably dream a couple of hours a. night. >> That's surprising cuz I I've always. heard like dreams last like just a few. seconds, but they seem like they last. hours, >> which would actually explain the rapid. eye movement. Like if we're doing that. while we're dreaming, we're moving back. and forth, that would suggest that our. dreams are happening in much faster time. than real waking time. >> Yeah, that's a good point. Well, I'm. basically a dream researcher now. >> Uh, as far as, you know, dream theory,

you know, obviously we have to mention. Freud. I kind of honestly get tired of. mentioning Freud now because I feel like. every time we mention Freud, we then. say, but no one really believes that. anymore. Well, the very fact that we. consider dreams to conceivably be. symbolic and try be trying to tell us. something that in and of itself is the. influence of Freud that still lasts. today. So there's even though a lot of. his stuff seems crackpot, there's like. the basis of it is is still applicable.

>> Yeah, I think that's the solution I came. to as well, which is like he he birthed. a lot of ideas. Mhm. >> Uh and that maybe is his value these. days. >> Birthed him right out of his sphincter. [laughter]. >> But of course, Freud was like, "Hey, none of this stuff is an accident. If. you're having dreams, that means that. you are living out some repressed desire. that you can't act on in regular life. Um probably obviously because it's. Freud, probably a sexual desire.".

Um Carl Jung came around and said, "Yeah, I sort of agree philosophically. to to a certain degree with you, uh my. teacher, I guess.". >> Yeah. >> But um and I don't think it's like a. primal need and something that's. repressed. I think it's just like us. reflecting on our selves and maybe even. trying to work through like problems. that we may have. >> Yeah. So to to differentiate those two. guys, Freud was like dreams conceal and.

Young was like, "No, no, no. Dreams. reveal." And he was basically like, "Just read your dream." Like it's it's. telling you something, but you don't. have to be like, "Oh, what does this. mean?" You already know what it means. And that it uses mythic archetypes as. this ancient basic language that any. human can understand. >> Yeah. Like the mythic [laughter]. archetype of Rachel Dret. >> Exactly. who represented the trickster. >> I mean, I I also think it can vary. Like, clearly, if I keep having the same.

dream of trying to get somewhere and. can't get there, >> like that may be saying something about. my life, but I also think that it it's. just completely a complete random. assimilation of just weirdo things. popping into your head, like Rachel. Drach at a art opening, >> right? Um, I tend to think like there. was some. series of like um like neural. connections that happened in the last. day or two that didn't make me. consciously think of Rachel DR. But when.

I put those things together while I'm. sleeping, boop, there's Rachel D. >> I tried to wonder or I tried to wonder I. wondered if I had like, you know, I do. follow her on Instagram, but I don't. think I had seen her on Instagram. anytime recently. But who who knows? >> See, to me it's like maybe you. remembered a joke that someone on SNL. told that she was just standing like in. the background of that you focused on. her years back and you associate her.

with that joke but don't realize it. >> Yeah. Debbie D. >> That's kind of my take on it. And if you. look at Freud and you look at Young's. interpretations or dream theories, I. should say, we've really done away with. Young's more than we have with Freud's, you know. >> Yeah, I think you're probably right. >> But then that's that's like the. psychoanalysis version of it. Along. comes in the 70s some uh much more. scientific ideas about what dreams are. and why we dream. and they really.

dovetail with your interpretation that. they're essentially just random bits of. meaningless information that our brain. struggles to put together into a. narrative and um that that's that. there's no meaning. It's not trying to. tell us anything. That grain silo over. there isn't a giant penis that you wish. you had. Like it's just just dreams. Like they don't they're just a byproduct. of your brain firing while you're. asleep. >> Yeah. That's called the activation. synthesis hypothesis which is uh it's.

just neurological processes playing out. uh and in this case it's the forebrain. trying to make sense of just what's. firing around uh neuronwise while you're. in rim sleep. >> Yeah. It's just just like where it takes. your brain firing while you're awake um. and puts it into like a narrative that. usually fairly resembles reality. When. you're sleeping, you're you're getting. random impulses according to this. And. so it's just doing its best. And.

sometimes its best is just plain old. weird. Like there's Rachel DR, you know? >> Yeah. >> That's that's it. >> Yeah. I think most of my dreams are odd. I don't ever have fantastical dreams. where like I'm a a winged beast that's. flying through, you know, prehistoric. life or anything like that. >> As a matter of fact, I don't think I've. ever flown in my dreams. Have you? >> I don't think so. All of my dreams now. are trying desperately to catch a flight.

that I can't catch, >> man. [clears throat]. >> But yeah, not actually flying. >> So, um there are some characteristics of. dreams that these uh these guys came up. with the activation synthesis hypothesis. pointed out. Alan Hobson and Robert. McCarly, by the way, are the guys who. figured this out. >> But they said that there's illogical. content, right? >> Check. Yeah. >> Uh odd sensory experiences. Yeah. >> Intense emotions. >> Yeah, that happens. >> Acceptance of strange events. That's my. favorite one. >> Oh, yeah. In dreams, you're always just. like, "Oh, yeah, sure.".

>> Right. [laughter] And then difficulty in. remembering them. And that it it it's. just we just take that for granted, right? Like, yeah, dreams are hard to. recall, but as we'll see in a little. while, there's that's just doesn't quite. add up and make sense. And they they've. not figured out why that's the case. quite yet. >> Yeah. And the other, you know, those. were from those uh two researchers since. then. other people have put forward that. it's usually a first-person perspective. thing. >> uh that features other people and that. they incorporate elements of waking life.

and I found all that to be basically. true. >> for sure. >> All right, Chuck, let's take a break and. we're going to come back and talk about. a couple more interpretations and then. why dreams are so hard to remember. >> That's right. >> That was my NPR throw to break. >> We'll be right back.

>> [music]. [music]. >> All right, so we're back talking more. about dreams and specifically uh Hobson. and McCari who, you know, researched the. stuff in the late '7s. Uh, that theory. they put forward that it's like, hey, you're looking too deeply into this. It's just a bunch of random neurons. firing and your brain trying to make. sense of it all. It was pretty.

controversial theory because I I guess. they were the first people to kind of. >> put forward that dreams may not be this. big deep thing full of meaning, >> right? >> Um, but it's it didn't like explain why. we dream. >> No. Uh, no. I mean it does in that it's. saying there's no explanation aside from. your brain just firing randomly. >> Then they're like just leave it at that. And other people are like no I will not. leave it at that. >> Right. >> I guess also what what you're saying is. that it doesn't explain dreaming.

Francis Crick was like okay you can. explain dreaming without adding like. symbolism and all sorts of weird stuff. to it. You can just say like your brain. is actually going through some steps. that to to I guess um McCari and Hobson. just seemed like random firing. But what. it's actually doing is sorting through. the inputs throughout the day and saying. get rid of that. Oh, I want to turn this. into a memory. Oh, let's see what. happens if we do this but while we're um. an elf, you know, and that it's actually. like he called it reverse learning where.

you're you're figure you're sorting. through the stuff from the day and that. that's what your brain's doing when. you're dreaming. >> Yeah, I I don't I don't fully understand. that one. >> I think what he was saying is sure guys. like yeah there it's just random firing. or it seems like random firing but. there's a our brain there's an. evolutionary purpose to it. It's not. just some byproduct like there's a. reason for it. I think is what he was. saying. >> Yeah. All right. It's Well, I think he. again too this uh research like he.

basically was like this is a starting. point like he didn't claim to be the the. final point on the matter. >> Yeah, it's true. >> Uh people also think we might dream to. process emotions. Uh that clearing the. mind clutter kind of goes back to what. Crick was talking about. Mhm. >> Uh promoting creativity perhaps. Um. maybe as sort of like a dress rehearsal. to something that may like scare you in. real life. Obviously like the dreams you. have the night before like a big. interview or something in that case, >> right? Man, those are the worst. That.

sleep is not refreshing. >> Yeah. I mean, man, thank God we've had. this job for so long and haven't had to. go through that in life in a while. >> No, I know. Or put a resume together. >> Yeah. Very fortunate. Um so uh okay so. those are those are theories that of. like what dreams are why we dream and I. think the fact that we haven't we never. said like oh this is the one or this is. the most widely accepted one even among. dream researchers they're like there's a. divide between whether people think.

dreams are functional and do something. and others who are like no it's just. random. So that's that's not been. settled even among the people who study. this for a living. Um, and I mentioned. dream recall too, right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's tough sometimes. I don't remember them at all. Uh, I. mentioned that the Rachel Dratwan, I had. just woken up from that dream. So, I. >> definitely remembered. And that. apparently is one of the keys. Uh, because they say 5 minutes after the end. of the dream, they say you've forgotten.

about half of it. 10 minutes later, you've forgotten 90% of it. So if you. want to, you know, have a like a dream. journal and if you want to remember your. dreams. >> Yeah. >> Uh they say that, you know, to be. awakened during that rim sleep is the. time to do it. And you know, they. suggest things like setting an alarm to. wake yourself up during rim sleep and. like keep a a pad and a pencil. Like uh. if that's what you're into, great. I I. would have a hard time falling back to.

sleep. So that's not for me. >> Right. That's also the reason why they. wake you up like at at terrible times. because you know you don't want to if. you wake up in the middle of our REM. sleep like you're groggy for the rest of. the day. >> Yeah. >> And during sleep studies beca or dream. studies I should say they wake you up. purposefully during REM sleep. >> That'd be terrible for me. >> Yeah. I know. And I' I've read that the. trick that the dream researchers use is. they go wake up. It's time for Taco Bell. fourth meal. And that usually gets. people up. [laughter].

Taco Bell fourth meal. I rolled the dice. not about a week and a half ago and had. Taco Bell. >> Oh, wow. How was it? >> It was great. I was in I was in the. drive-thru line googling, "Is it safe. now to eat at Taco Bell?". >> Wow. >> Because because of the lettuce thing and. uh the internet said, >> "Oh, sure. You go right ahead, buddy. It's great.". >> Did it really? I'm surprised. >> Yeah. It said that they had worked all. that out. >> Oh, I had Oh, yeah. That's right. I. think Taco Bell switched suppliers like. basically on day zero.

>> Yeah. >> Okay, cool. >> That was good. >> I'm glad. And you haven't been pooping. your pants for two straight weeks. >> Well, I did because I ate Taco Bell. That's why. Like, who could tell who. could tell the difference? >> That happened to me with Crystal once. >> Oh. Oh, yeah. >> Mhm. >> All right. >> I should probably edit that out. >> Moving on. >> So, I think you touched on something. early on, too, if I remember correctly. If I recall, you said that some people. say that they don't dream and it's up up.

for debate whether they actually do. dream because everybody dreams is the. idea. Um and they just don't recall very. well or if some people don't dream. >> Yeah. >> And they found like no it seems like. everybody dreams because they've studied. people who say like I never remember. dreams so much so I don't think I dream. They'll wake them up during REM sleep. and say what were you dreaming about? those people can recall a dream. So they. think yes, everyone dreams, but um do.

some people dream more than others and. if not or if so then is it just like. they you know they have more trouble. recalling than other people? >> Right. For sure. And then of course. there's been theories within the dream. theory community since Freud about like. why we don't remember our dreams or we. or we do. And Freud was like, "Uh, well, you know, we forget them because if if. you'll remember, they are repressed. feelings and wishes.". >> Uh, so like that's the kind of thing you. might want to push out of your head and.

keep it repressed. >> Um, there's other people that have said. that uh, you know, other things just. like are there's too much in the brain. basically. So uh, you can't remember it. all. And also waking up like you're some. people wake up and it's really hard for. some people to come around and remember. anything when they first wake up. >> Yeah. I definitely subscribe to the. neurobiological. explanation for why dream recall is so. hard because there's such there's some. really convincing parts to it. Right.

>> Yeah. >> Like the the hippo campus which is the. little component that's um responsible. for consolidating short-term memory into. long-term memory. It's it it like stays. asleep a little longer than the rest of. your brain. So, you don't just. immediately get to assembling your your. short-term memory of your dreams into. long-term memories. That makes sense. >> Yeah. I'm just now waking up quite. honestly. Where what what's going on? What's happening? >> You're such a pro that you just did like. half of a podcast while you're still.

waking up. >> Oh, boy. uh neurotransmitters acetylcholine and. norepinephrine are both involved in. memory consolidation and their levels. dwindle and do weird stuff while you're. having sleep. So there's like a lot of. reasons why you probably aren't great at. recalling your dreams and then some. people are really good at it and they're. just freaks of nature. >> Yeah. I mean, some people think that if. you are uh like if you're someone who's. very prone to introspection or maybe.

daydreaming, you might be better. remembering your dreams during the night. time or whenever you happen to sleep. >> Yeah. >> Uh but you can, you know, they say you. can train yourself to remember your. dreams. Uh you know, the the dream. journal like I mentioned earlier is is. one way to at least record them. >> But if you want to increase your dream. recall, first of all, you have to fall. into that RAM sleep, obviously. Uh there are things that can prohibit. you from uh at least remembering your.

dreams like uh drinking booze or smoking. pot or like exercising right before you. go to bed. Uh that can definitely affect. your dream recall. Uh and then you can. you can train yourself. I think we. talked about this in other episodes. might have been lucid dreaming. Can you. control your dreams? >> Like when you go to bed. >> say like as you're falling asleep try. and just say like I'm going to dream. I'm going to remember. I'm going to. remember these dreams. gonna do it. >> I've heard it's best to say, "I must I. must I must remember [laughter] my. dreams.".

>> Uh, and again, if you wake up right out. of a dream, you're more likely to. remember it. Uh, probably if it's a. super like intense or vivid dream, you're more likely to remember it, >> right? >> Um, and I have like I try to do the. thing where if I'm having a dream that. I'm really enjoying and I have to wake. up and go to the bathroom, I really try. and just keep that dream running in my. head and try and get right back to it. And sometimes that works. Yeah, that's. that's Yeah. And and not only are you. trying to remember the dream, you're. trying not to wake up. >> Yeah. >> Just from peeing, too. Yes, that.

definitely works. Like you're just. there's a certain level of consciousness. that you'll let your brain rise to. >> Right. Right. >> I I actually have a a dream that I. remember because I woke up straight out. of it, literally. Um it's it was cool. It was one of the neatest things that's. ever happened to me. So, I was I was. laying in bed sleeping, dreaming that I. was in a sitting in a car. And as I got. out of the car, I was getting out of bed. cuz I had to get up to pee myself. And. like it felt very much like as my my.

right leg got out of the bed and the. car, like my right leg was. awake. >> Uhhuh. >> But like the rest of my body hadn't. woken up yet cuz it was still in the. car, but my leg was in my bedroom. And. so as I got up out of bed, I was getting. out of the car in my dream and I just. slowly transferred from the dream world. into waking reality in my room. >> Wow. >> It was really neat. Like the the. interior of the car and the edge of the.

bed were one and the same. And it was. like just some. >> I don't know like portal or threshold or. something that I went through. It was. really really cool, man. >> Yeah. I love that stuff. I mean, that's. why I love dreams because they're just. >> it's it's they can be just so bizarre. and put you in a completely like weird. state of mind. >> Yeah. >> Without, you know, any substances. >> For sure. >> So, uh they apparently, you know, and. this is um I encourage you to go listen. to the lucid dreaming episode, can you.

control your dreams? Because that's the. idea that you know you're asleep, you. know you're dreaming, and you're in. control of your dream. Like dream. sailing, I think is what we called it or. other people have called it. >> for sure. And that was 2009. So that was. like a. >> early one. >> Yeah, it was a minute ago. But uh dream. incubation is another thing and that's. if you want to dream about a certain. thing uh you try and kind of do the same. thing like focus your attention on that. thing as you're going to sleep. >> Mhm. Um, and a lot of times people there.

there is one uh sort of subset of. researchers that say or maybe just. people that um think that you can like. come up creative solutions for maybe. mental or creative blocks while you're. dreaming. And so they will try and. induce or uh incubate a dream as they're. going to sleep. >> Yeah. Um and it's it's basically like I. want to dream about this. Um, and so you. will hopefully dream about it, especially if you like kind of prime. yourself throughout the day to dream.

about that one topic. And people have. shown you can come up with solutions to. waking life problems in your dreams. And. there have been some famous examples of. it. Um, one that usually gets mentioned. in in any kind of um list of those is uh. Kelay uh the German chemist, >> okay, >> who um discovered the structure of the. benzene model uh molecule. I mean, which. sounds like, okay, great. Uh, it was it. required completely different thinking. than everything he had been trained to.

up to that point because he was a. chemist in Germany in the mid- 19th. century. And at that time, they thought. every molecule was linear in. arrangement. And he was like, this is. not the math is not adding up like this. thing does not work in a linear shape. What am I missing? And he he slept one. night and dreamt of oruraoroses or. oraorize a snake eating its own tail. >> And when he woke up, it was just clear. as day to him that the benzene molecule. was in a ring arrangement, a circular.

arrangement rather than linear. And he. was right. >> Yeah. I mean, you hear stories like that. or that Mary Shel um dreamed up. Frankenstein. uh or other musicians like famous songs. came to them in their sleep. And I don't. I hear that stuff and I think that um. that like the solution to the uh benzene. molecule or the seed of the idea of. Frankenstein was in their brain already. and the dream allowed it to be tapped. into or something. I don't know. I mean.

it's it's there's obviously nothing to. prove that but it just sort of makes. sense to me. That's my uh take on it. too, that it was already there and and. their their dream state just allowed. them to think about it in different ways. than they in Waking Life. >> So cool. >> Yeah. I saw yesterday and Let It Be were. both dreamt by Paul McCartney, River of. Dreams. Um that one where it's like in. the middle of the night, that Billy Joel. song. >> Yeah. >> You didn't like my Billy Joel. impression? >> No, I thought it was funny.

>> Uh that one was came to him in a dream. You're not going to sing yesterday? >> No. >> Okay. >> Uh Beethoven uh had a some music come to. him in a dream. 99 Luth Balloons. Uh. Jimmy Hendris, Purple Haze. >> Yeah. >> And are you familiar with AEX Twin? >> Oh, sure. >> Okay. Ax Twin apparently is a um. hardcore lucid dreamer and has made. bunches of songs by by lucid dreaming. like purposely like going to sleep and. dreaming to like work out, you know,

music. cheat code. That's what they call. that. [laughter]. >> You got me with that one. >> Uh should we take a break? >> Yeah. >> All right, we'll take a break and we'll. talk a little bit more about uh dream. meanings and nightmares right after. this. [music]. [music].

>> [music]. [music]. >> Okay, Chuck. So, uh I think this is. going rather well. What do you. [laughter] think? >> I I agree. >> Uh so there's that whole divide about. whether dreams mean anything or if. they're just random, >> right? >> Uh most people, I would say, are like, "No, it's not random, man. there. I had. this one dream and you know it it it.

said that I should go pursue a a. career as a sailor and here I am a. sailor and I've never been happier, right? >> Mhm. >> I've got a virgin voyage on the brain, I. guess. >> Right. Yeah. I mean, my my grandfather. after he passed came to me in a dream. very specifically when I was like 10. years old. So, you know, you hear. something like that and I I'm not uh you. know, super woowoo, so I don't. necessarily think that he came to me in. a dream and like. >> something metaphysical happened. >> Um to me it was just a kid trying to.

make sense of losing his grandfather and. a dream like providing some relief. maybe. >> That's neat. I I I kind of there's like. a kernel of me that is is like it's. possible that your grandfather was. somehow visiting you. >> Yeah, I'd like to believe that's true. It was it was very powerful. I still. remember it, you know, all these years. later. >> That's neat. Did he he was he very. critical of you in the dream? >> Yeah. [laughter]. Uh no, he he literally walked up to me. and said, "Uh, you're going to be okay,

bud." And that was it. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. Like super. I was like, you know, granddad's really on the nose, [laughter]. >> right? >> Oh, boy. >> Yeah. It still makes me emotional all. these years later. I was uh like 10 or. 11 years old and I'm 55. Good lord. >> I mean, I can imagine that's like a like. a lifetime experience that not everybody. gets. It's like, yeah, that's a really. special thing that happened to you. >> And you hear those stories. Uh thanks, man. I appreciate that. You hear stories. all the time about like way more.

involved dreams than that of like, you. know, people from the beyond like. getting in touch and stuff. I think it's. interesting. >> Check out this new card trick I just. learned. [laughter]. All right, back to dream meanings and. symbols, I think, is kind of what most. people point to, which is why I said. Freud's um influence is still around. today. Anybody who's like, "No, dreams. are symbolic and you have to interpret. them." You're you're following in. Freud's wake.

>> Yeah. And they're like some stock sort. of explanations or guides for this kind. of thing. Like when I mentioned my teeth. falling out, it's a very common dream. Uh, not surprisingly, it usually. indicates anxiety about something. Um, this what what you sent said, anxiety. about appearance. >> So, I never really thought about that. But, uh, also maybe feeling deceitful or. concerns about your health. >> Mhm. >> Teeth falling out. >> Then my teeth literally fell out, which. is kind of funny,

>> right? Did you dream that they went. right back in? >> No. That's funny. But I do think that. maybe my teeth grinding it might have. been a a um sort of reaction to me. grinding my teeth at night. >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yumi has a recurring teeth falling out. dream where she'll have some sort of. diamond somewhere or there's a diamond. somewhere in the um in the uh dream. Usually it's in like a ring and it falls. out and she knows that that's her signal.

that her teeth are all about to fall. out. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. I thought you were about to. say she gets grills. >> She would love a grill. Actually, [laughter]. there's a grill museum in Atlanta. Did. you know that? >> No, but I'm not surprised. >> there is one. We haven't been yet. >> Atlanta's got to be one of the grill. capitals of the world. >> I would guess so, cuz it's also like the. trap music capital of the world. And. those two things go hand in hand, >> for sure. What about falling in a dream? >> Uh, this one sucks. I can tell you. firsthand. Um, it's typically thought to.

mean that you feel out of control of. your life. >> Yeah. >> Being chased. >> is I like this one that you're evading. responsibilities. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> What about fire? >> Uh, fire. Um, maybe it's about renewal. or maybe it's about some anger that you. have repressed or maybe um purification. perhaps or destruction. >> Yep. Or I don't think I've ever had this. one. Have you ever had one about being. naked in public?

>> I don't think so, but that's a pretty. common dream. I think supposedly. >> Mhm. >> I don't think I've had being naked. Or. maybe I did when I was younger. I don't. know. >> But they typically think like you have. probably had an embarrassing situation. and you're still processing it. >> Yeah, that makes sense. But you know the. issue with all this stuff like is I said. these are sort of stock explanations. You know they sell books and they get. clicks for articles but it's hard to get.

a stock explanation because it's so um. you know you can see like somebody might. see something as like awesome in a dream. where other people might see it as a. threat. Uh it gets very culturally. specific obviously and even within the. own your like one culture. >> things can be interpreted in. contradictory ways. So, it's hard to. sort of say like, well, this is what. that means, >> right? It definitely seems much more pop. culture than scientific. For sure. >> For sure.

>> Um, and then there's u you had mentioned. recurring dreams. Your recurring dream. of running late for something. >> Those are that's that's a thing. Recurring dreams, especially recurring. unpleasant dreams are a horror that can. be um that can befall humans, which is. very sad. Uh, recurring dreams don't. have to always be unpleasant, but from. what I could tell, pleasant recurring. dreams are essentially non-existent. That the best you can hope for are. neutral. um recurring dreams that most of the.

time they're at least unpleasant if not, you know, straight up bad dreams. >> Yeah, for sure. And, you know, there's a. distinction I mentioned earlier uh but. that we were going to get into it. between bad dreams and nightmares. Mhm. >> Uh if you're talking about just like. real sleep um research, uh a nightmare. um specifically means that you uh are. like it wakes you up like it's so bad. you wake up, you know, obviously. generally like uh scared.

>> That means do you remember the end of. Don't Be Dumb was a nightmare for you. [laughter] Do you remember? Because you. woke up from it. >> That's right. You pulled me into Don't. Be Dumb at the end. >> That was great. It was a great ending. >> in a very new heart way. There is. another um there's an author a. neuroscientist named Sedarta Riberro. Rivierro I think um they wrote the art. the oracle of night colon the history. and science of dreams and they I thought. made a pretty interesting case for. dreams having some sort of meaning even.

not symbolically but at least they're. not just random the byproduct of random. neural firings right. >> and he said it's because the existence. of recurring dreams shows that you. couldn't possibly have the same dream if. your neurons are just firing randomly. >> Yeah, >> you could not have a recurring dream. Like there that in and of itself shows. that there is something to dreams that. they do serve some purpose or they do. have some meaning to us which I thought. was rather clever.

>> Yeah, I think I probably agree with. that. >> Yeah. um recurring nightmares is. probably kind of one of the worst things. and it's very very sad in that um. veterans and people suffering from PTSD. in general. >> Mhm. >> Uh often have recurring nightmares and. that's actually one of the criteria for. diagnosing PTSD. >> Yeah. >> Um there was a study in 1998 that found. two to 8% of adults have nightmares or. pro problematic nightmares at least and. 52% of Vietnam veterans did. >> I know.

>> Uh and that's tough stuff. uh because. that's clearly, you know, you know, things that are either buried or that. you just can't can't get over or deal. with still in your waking life. >> Um what's neat about that though is they. have figured out forms of dream therapy. for PTSD specifically, but it can also. be used um by anyone having recurring. bad dreams or nightmares where you. essentially train yourself to imagine a. different ending for that nightmare.

Right. Yeah. And. >> so as for PTSD, like your nightmare is. the event that gave you PTSD. So you're. re reexperiencing it over and over every. night, >> which it's just mindboggling how awful. that sounds, right? >> Yeah. >> The this therapy is like, okay, in this. next stream, you're going to like in the. end, you're going to fight this person. off or you're going to suddenly be at. home and at peace or whatever. And the. it's kind of like that dream incubation.

idea uh where you eventually hopefully. are able to change the end of that. nightmare and from what I was reading. that usually frees the person from that. nightmare. They never have it again. after that. >> Yeah. It's the turn your frown upside. down of hellish nightmares. >> For sure. [laughter] Right. So, it's at. the very least it's um it's it's. heartening that there is a solution, a. potential solution because nightmares, whether you have PTSD or not, um they're.

linked to self-injury and suicide. >> Yeah. And uh you know, even just at the. bare minimum, it's going to give you uh. perhaps sleep deprivation. >> Uh and it can interfere with your you. know, normal routines during the day, your job, your relationships. uh they think there may be a genetic. predisposition to frequent nightmares. but they don't know what that is. Uh but. they also say well it also could be. maybe uh the same like genetic or at. least driven by genetic risk factors of.

mental health conditions that may be. underlying behind the dreams. >> Yeah. And that actually ties into um. nightmares in bad dreams being a um a. characteristic or a trait of Parkinson's. disease. >> Oh yeah. you found that. >> and specifically um Parkinson's disease. with um dementia. I guess 78% of people. with Parkinson's disease with dementia. have recurring nightmares. >> Oh man. >> Or at least bad dreams. I'm not sure if.

they actually meet the criteria for. nightmare where you wake up, but you're. you it's not pleasant to go to sleep if. you have Parkinson's with dementia. >> Yeah. Uh yeah. Uh we talked about we did. a whole episode on fever dreams, too. Remember that? >> Mhm. >> That was interesting. We did one on. sleep paralysis. >> That's right. >> And we did one on night tears, too. Um, so yeah, both of those episodes are out. there. I think sleep paralysis was. called like the worst thing that can. happen to you while you're sleeping, maybe, >> right? And isn't that the sleep.

paralysis is when you like you're. asleep, but you picture yourself awake. and there's like someone at the foot of. your bed. >> Yeah. And because you're in sleep, you. can't move. Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] Oh god. And then night. terrors are similar um in that you you. appear to other people to be awake uh. because you're screaming and fighting. somebody off and your eyes are open but. you are still asleep. >> Yeah. Kids usually get those but adults. can as well. >> Mhm. >> Uh and then what about this idea about.

like uh premonitions? Like I, you know, there have definitely been people uh. that have at least said that they had a. premonition about some very specific um. historical event. Um sometimes big time. and sometimes just you know little. little things that happen in people's. families. >> Mh. But the, you know, the big ones are. ones that get all the press. Like, um, in the 1960s, there was a Canadian. dreamer named Kathleen Laura Middleton. who, um, had a lot of dreams about.

things that she had no connection to. And she at least claimed to, um, have. predicted, uh, through her dream a. landslide in uh, South Wales that killed. 144 people about an hour before and. supposedly the assassination of Robert. Kennedy. Yeah. she for told in a dream. >> and she doesn't seem to have been like. attention seeking or anything like that. She she does seem to have been a um like. this this these were her experiences. Of. course, scientifically you're like,

well, there's a lot of things you can. point to that that explain why people. think there's such a thing as. pre-cognitive dreams. Um your dreams. might be a little ambiguous so that. you're kind of retroactively going back. and being like, "Yes, that's what that. was was saying. Um or your brain just. wants to identify patterns naturally. We. talk about that a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um so it could be putting together stuff. that's not really necessarily connected. Um selective memory coincidence.

>> Yeah. It's just there's not really any. any room for it in science typically. But I found an article that pointed out. that quantum physics actually has room. for precognitive dreams. Oh yeah. >> Yeah. It basically says that uh under. some quantum theories like quantum. gravity I think it allows for this where. past, present and future are not. following any kind of linear order like. we think of time. Instead, they all kind.

of coexist. And this this quantum. interpretation of precognitive dreams. just basically says in certain states, in this case, dreaming, the dream state, we're able to access future events just. like we are past events or present. events when we're waking. >> H pretty neat. >> Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean between. 17 and 38% of people say they have had. at least one pre-cognitive dream in. their lifetime.

>> Mhm. >> Uh and I think definitely if you have. like a willingness to accept like um. accept that kind of thing in general and. maybe accept ambiguous information and. put it together in a way that makes. sense. It's like you may be more prone. to be like, "Hey, by I dream this. thing." And you know, who knows? The. assassination was sort of a political. assassination was much more of a thing. when Robert Kennedy was assassinated. And maybe Kathleen Lorna Middleton was. uh uh a fan of the Kennedys and it's.

something that that concerned her like. >> that's a good explanation. >> Uh but you know, it maybe it's not also. to be explained and maybe I mean, who. knows? Maybe people can really dream. stuff that's going to happen. I don't. know. I don't either. I don't either, Chuck. And I think that it takes a big. man to admit something like that. [laughter]. >> All right. We're a couple of big men. >> Uh you got anything else about dreams. right now? >> I do not. >> Okay. Well, that was our dream episode. People have been calling for that for a. while. Hopefully you guys liked it.

>> I know. Yeah. >> Uh and since we're wondering whether you. guys like this episode, I think I just. accidentally triggered listener mail. >> That's right. Uh this is a Sammy Davis. Jr. story. I don't know if you saw this. >> Mm-m. >> It's pretty fun. Hey guys, fairly new. listener. Uh um someone wrote in with. the Sammy Davis Jr. story and you asked. for more. [music] So, here it is. Uh. when my elderly father passed in 2006, we heard a story from [music] uh the. wife of my dad's business partner. She. told us that there was a time when the. four of them [music] were in Las Vegas.

together and attended a Sammy Davis Jr. concert. Uh my mother who had gone out. to the restroom just before the concert. began um the came back in. The lights. went down. Sammy began his first number. and my mother returned from the. restroom. It was dark and she couldn't. remember or see where they were sitting. [music] And as she stumbled between the. tables, she started calling out, "Vic, where are you? [laughter] Vic, where are. you?" [music] And it wasn't too long. before Sammy completely stopped the show. and asked from the stage, "Rick, babe, where are you?".

>> [laughter]. >> mom got back to her table and Sammy. started the concert over again from the. very beginning. >> Oh wow. >> Uh later that year uh very sadly my mom. also passed away and I was able to tell. this story as part of her remembrance. adding that I could imagine her arriving. in heaven asking Vic where are you? Uh. that is from Cliff in Madison, Wisconsin, one of my new favorite towns. >> Yeah, that is a great town and that's a. great story, Cliff. Thanks a lot for. sending it to us. One of the better. Sammy Davis Jr. stories I've ever heard. Yeah, doesn't get much better than Sammy.

Davis Jr. addressing you from stage. >> for sure. Uh, if you want to be like. Cliff and send us an email with a great. story that's also kind of a tribute to. your late loved one, we think those are. the tops, as Sammy might say. At the. very least, Mel Tormet would say it for. sure. You can send it off to Stuff. Podcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iheartradio. >> [music]. >> For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit. the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

wherever you listen to your favorite. [music] shows.