Kindness: Do It | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and Chuck's here and Jerry's here. and this is stuff you should know and. it's a podcast and um the three of us. are part of. it uh yeah this is uh an article on the. science of kindness which somehow put me. in a bad mood I don't know what that. said about.

me I don't know why I I don't know why. either it's very odd but I kind of know. what you're talking about if we're like. the topic overall that we're going to. talk about I think is going to bring joy. to people but they'll get angry along. the. way but hopefully when by the time we're. done those who are still listening will. be like all right I'm I'm feeling good. again all right let's talk about it and. let's start with animals because uh in. fact we can direct people to uh we did a. great episode I think on animal altruism.

is that what it was called yeah. biological altruism something like that. where we talked about uh this sort of. leading fact as we lead into humans and. kindness the fact that you know animals. all throughout the animal world display. acts of kindness and many times they are. uh altruistic in that they're not. they're not looking for anything other. than to help out their bird mate or. monkey mate or ant mate yeah you you. shorted on last minute gift ideas go. look in on what the maacs are giving.

each other kindness so it's in animals. we know that we have evidence of it yeah. it's also in humans we have pretty good. evidence of that too that kindness is a. thing but it definitely seems the fact. that it's in animals as well uh suggests. that it's in us on some genetic level. it's not just Society being like Be Kind. Rewind you know like like there's an. actual imperative a biological. imperative for it and what's odd about.

it is that most people would think that. flies in the face of um survival of the. fittest basically Darwin's whole Jam. that that you know looking out for. number one is kind of it might not be. the antithesis of kindness but it. certainly doesn't go hand inand and yet. when you dig into Darwin you're like oh. he was actually big time into kindness. yeah he talked he wrote a lot of stuff. about um communities cooperating uh and. not just like hey it's better if you. cooperate and to go kill that willly. mammoth.

but but like compassion and empathy are. are uh are markers of a healthy. community and a community that will. survive in a fitter way yeah like if Tuk. tuck pushed jib juub out of the way. right as he was about to throw a spear. into the woolly mammoth jib ja took took. took the uh shot and took the mammoth. down and got all the praise he's got. hurt feelings between him and jib job. right got to go to are introducing a new. character yes it's happening before your.

very eyes wow this exciting and you're. 16 yeah so like in those. communities and communities now like the. the thing that just kind of keeps things. not just going like you can go as a. society in a dystopian manner but it's. not a good Society it's not thriving I. think the thing that makes it Thrive and. then a thriving Society is much more. likely to survive and reproduce because. everybody wants it to because they're. having a great time are things like. kindness It's one of those lubricators. that helps Society go from surviving to.

thriving I agree and uh it's also. something that uh you know you see well. hopefully you see firsthand when you. have a kid um if you don't that doesn't. mean that you know your child is broken. uh because there are all kinds of. reasons that a kid may not just sort of. be innately kind they might not like you. yeah maybe you're the problem uh dad um. but study after study has shown that. that uh many children are sort of.

innately kind to other people and that. uh of course this is just me. editorializing the second part and it is. later as you grow up and be a cynical. adult is when those kindnesses go away. but you see examples all the time when. you have a kid of your kid and other. children and their friends and. classmates being kind to one another and. it's it it is truly heartwarming to see. and makes you think like oh like maybe. cuz this is what we're kind of talking. about like are we innately good PE like.

as humans and those examples kind of. indicate that yeah we maybe are good. humans to begin with like uh and we're. going to talk about a lot of studies and. experiments in this episode but this one. was one where they had uh a kid and they. had some treats like little candies or. something they had goldfish or Teddy. grams I was just I was trying to not. name check but sure those are money. treats man they deserve like we need to. to lay it out there just how valuable.

these treats were uh and then they had. these little puppet uh puppets I was. going to say puppet things but puppets. are puppets so what they would do was. and what they're trying to get at is. like how happy did uh cuz you know. that's sort of at the root of all all. this is like uh and we'll talk later. about when you receive a kindness of. course that makes sense that you're. going to feel great but does it feel. good and make you happy to do a kindness. and so they had this little puppet and. they said uh all right um we're going to.

give these puppets a goldfish uh. sometimes and we're going to see how. happy that makes you little kid uh we're. going to give you a goldfish to give to. that puppet we're going to see how happy. that makes you and then we're going to. also just give you a bunch of goldfish. and say those are yours but uh maybe you. should give the puppet one of your own. and the one where the like the happiest. kids were the ones uh where they or. instances at least were the ones where. the kids gave of their own stash of.

their own head stash right to these. puppets like they were happy seeing the. the puppet get a treat sure but they. were happier to give that puppet a treat. of its own right yeah and they weren't. necessarily doing that so they would. look good for the study it seems exactly. these were toddlers I think they were. two or less two or younger um there's. another study that kind of found. something similar that paid attention to. um little kids um.

and how they responded to a grown-up. needing help and they they they showed. that kids definitely do enter distress. might be kind of a a harsh word for it. but there's a a concerned State that's. much better they are concerned and. apparently you can track that by your. pupils dilating and this is the Mac Max. plank Institute so they're pretty legit. but they were tracking kids pupils. dilating so an adult would drop. something and have trouble picking it up. and the kids pupils would Di so they. were concerned the kids became um.

happiest or became less concerned or. unconcerned uh when they were able to. help and but then second to that they. were also unconcerned they stopped. feeling concerned after they saw. somebody else help the grownup so it's. not like you were saying it's not just. about getting credit it's not just about. thinking you're making adults happy like. these kids were genuinely relieved to. see somebody getting help even when they. couldn't help them and that helps. underscore the idea that yeah we're.

we're biologically kind in our genes did. the uh people who organize the study uh. account did they make sure they just. accounted for the dilation of pupils by. making sure testing these kids for. methan fetan use oh yeah that's that's. step one a p test yeah all right that. checks out then yeah and the ones who. they find um outside of the lab hours. before Sunrise digging a hole. inexplicably they pretty much just get. them out of the population right.

away uh so people have been trying to um. I guess group and measure and come up. with scales uh on how to measure uh. kindness and happiness and stuff like. that yeah uh for a long long time and um. one way to measure it that they've come. up with is something called the. interpersonal reactivity index which is. sort of sort of an empathy measurement. uh which is great uh there's another one. called the inventory. strengths uh that looks at Behavior like.

treats kindness as a behavior but these. researchers at huddles field University. of huddles field in the UK uh in 2017. they were like all right let's create a. scale that's going to measure like. different aspects of being kind and see. if we can group them and they did uh. they had a 40 item questionnaire and. ended up clustering into three groups uh. the first one being benign tolerance. which is it's like an everyday kind. like uh hey you got groceries why don't.

you take my seat on the subway that kind. of thing yeah it's a kindness yeah it's. an everyday sort of kindness uh. empathetic responsivity responsivity. yeah yeah is the next one and that is uh. more emotional and then much more. personal and much more specific to a. person right like you this is somebody. you have what they consider strong ties. to like a a close friend or a family. member or something like that.

responding to them empathetically which. is great really really well um said yeah. and then the last one is principal. proaction and this is altruism but a. little less emotional like you know go. look at my record books I give a lot of. money to charity sure so um what they. found though so all of the 40 40. questions on the inventory those they. all basically clustered into those three. umbrellas but they found three different.

things that were common to all three of. the little islands of kindness and those. were great name they were yeah islands. of kindness is a great band name you're. right synth pop sure um so they were I. feel sorry for other people when they. experience problems I like to make other. people feel happy and people think I. have a soft heart and what they came to. uh to kind of identify those three. things together that showed up under.

principal proac proaction empathetic. responsivity and benign tolerance they. can they said that that's your core. kindness that that's that's the that's. the basic thing that makes people. genuinely kind those are the things that. if you put those three things together. you have a kind person you can have. other people doing kind things but. they're not necessarily kind and they. even had a measurement of unkindness. nine of the questions were basically. like are you a jerk answer yes or no. they're like come on answer that was.

question two be honest was question. three and so on and so forth and they. found that people who were who rated as. unkind saying one thing I think um uh. maybe benign tolerance they still rated. highly in empathetic responsivity or. principal proaction so it's not like. even if you're unkind on paper that you. don't do kind things what they were. saying is genuinely kind people check. those three boxes yeah I think on the. questionnaire it should say are are you. a jerk and the only option is no and.

then the next question is do other. people think you're a jerk and the only. option is yes right and between those. two is the truth uh they also found that. women scored higher uh than men. generally speaking uh and very. specifically on benign tolerance and. principled proaction yeah uh and they. this was very interesting there was no. overall difference based on the age of. the participant but if you were over 40. then you would would score higher on. principled.

proaction uh which kind of makes sense. if that's like giving to charity cuz uh. I mean I don't think I had enough money. to even give to charity when I was. younger I think too that's that's also a. measure of um like replacing like adding. distance to your kindness you know yeah. sure it's not just like donating you. don't show up at like the the the house. that the Charity's like you know. supporting you're just giving to that. charity yeah and also you know I I I.

said that I didn't have enough money to. give to. charity that's not true you um I'm not. going to say always there are people. that are genuinely um living like week. to week and dayto day with their. finances so I'm not talking about that. but in my 20s I could have you know not. done the one thing to give $10 to. another thing you know what I'm saying. it's shameful I know it was uh but you. can't give time if you don't have money. which is another way to be charitable so.

one thing about that though real quick. before you move on I remember Plenty Of. Studies have turned up that um people of. middle to lower socioeconomic status. tend to give more to charity Than People. higher up in the socioeconomic status. yeah is that more total monies or more. uh like based on their relative income I. think yeah I think relatively speaking. because I mean you know like a a. billionaire could give a million dollars. and be like eat my dust right. socioeconomic people uhhuh but that you.

know relative to their wealth it's not. really that big of a deal whereas. somebody lower on the scale um or with. less money they gave $1,000 that might. mean a lot more than a million dollars. would to a billionaire yeah and boy what. a lesson to uh let's say you're a single. parent with a few kids and you're really. struggling what a lesson to your kids to. be like you know what uh I I found a $20. bill today and we're we're gonna put $2. in this guy's.

can that seems like he needs it more. than we do even but we're gonna get it. in change so it sounds like a lot. because he's he's not paying attention. but he'll hear it go get 200 pennies son. should we take a break oh yeah all right. let's take a break we'll be right. [Music]. back.

[Music]. all right we've talked about uh the. runner's high before that euphoric sense. that uh a runner can feel at a at a. certain mile M on the road or in the. woods or wherever you're running can you. get a runner sign on a treadmill oh yeah. anytime anytime you're exerting your.

body running for a while okay that. didn't if had something to do with the. environment and fresh air and stuff like. that it might trigger it a little faster. who knows but yes you can all right uh. all that to say there's a helpers high. that they found this is in the uh 1980s. that they first re clued into this and. that is just what you might think is. after doing a kindness uh to someone uh. you might feel a sense of exhilaration. you might feel a very nice period of. calm afterward. mhm they have found depending on the.

kindness I guess in the person that can. that can really get you going for a few. weeks sometimes yeah uh and this is. really interesting I thought. psychologically uh or these next couple. of things is that you can get that same. high just by thinking back on that. kindness you did like a month ago yeah. that's pretty interesting heck yeah. that's interesting but if you stop and. think about it it's it's anecdotally. speaking of course that that works like. that but when you see it on paper it's. it's kind of astounding you know that.

you can think about something like you. said you did a month ago and feel good. about it all over again that's pretty. cool yeah and we do know that there are. literal physical symptoms of kindnesses. and the effect like better immune. function uh your stress hormones are. going to go down and stuff like that but. it makes me wonder if you like if you. can call up that kindness you did a. month ago when you're starting to feel. like you're getting a cold would that. literally help you avoid a cold oh yeah. absolutely without a question.

okay it's a good reason to be kind yeah. and have a good memory yeah there's. there's another so another way you could. put kindness It's probably not exactly. interchangeable but it's close enough. it's pro-social Behavior yeah because I. don't think we said something um that's. really important kindness is. um it's it's it's action it's always an. action like it's not just thinking. something thinking something is not. kindness you can have kind thoughts but.

kindness is always an action and in fact. um kindness.org which is a nonprofit. that's basically like uh that supports. kindness research they say that kindness. is a meta value which is just right out. of the gate knocks your socks off MH and. that it encompasses acts of altruism. empathy Justice respect and more and. that it is always an action often done. with the intention to benefit and. sometimes but not always driven by. emotion which I mean if you're going to. define kindness. there it is right there and another.

another way to explain that is saying. pro-social Behavior you are acting in a. way that is kind right so people have. studied pro-social Behavior more than. they studied kindness so you can kind of. take some of those pro-social Behavior. studies and apply them to kindness. research too and that's exactly what um. a 2020 meta analysis did from Hong Kong. poly Technic U that's right great School. it's got to be right uh yeah I was.

reading about it I think it's actually. one of the best schools in the world. yeah see there and they they do not have. a mascot as far as I could tell it's. either an owl or Winnie the Pooh I. couldn't make heads or tails of some of. the photos let's go with win the poo go. poos all right so uh they did a meta. analysis like you're saying in 2020 and. found that pro-social behavior that you. so apply defined was very closely linked. with something called uh I'm going to. call it udam monic well being I think so.

or either that or you demonic maybe. that's a silent eye who knows but that. is a happiness that is uh it's sort of. Happiness plus it's associated with more. meaning and more purpose than an. ordinary happiness like oh boy this ice. cream tastes good yeah and I've I've. seen so you have well-being um I've seen. you you demonic uh well-being or. happiness as well doing like you're. doing stuff that makes you happy rather. than just feeling happy and that in and.

of itself is a component of well-being. that's pretty cool so there's also um. that same I think meta analysis turned. up that if you help somebody. informally um you typically receive more. personal benefits like more happiness or. um a sense of reward than you do if. you're formally you know being kind like. organizing a a charity or or even. writing a check to charity that makes. sense yeah it's like a surprise for you. as well if if an opportunity to perform.

a kindness and by the way I I don't only. say a kindness because of uh the. gentleman from Winnebago. Man the great great documentary yeah I. remember that but I don't remember him. saying a kindness yeah he said it all. the time do me a kindness and you know. oh yeah get me a coffee yeah but it's it. kind of fits though cuz a kindness is is. an act so it's like uh it it turns it. into an action almost by making it a. noun or yeah yeah an adverb is that an.

adverb I don't know no it's not an. adverb I'm about as good at uh English. as I am at math no that's not true oh. thanks you're much good at. English so uh oh I don't even know where. I was going with this because all I can. think about is Winnebago Man uh you were. talking about oh the surprise of a. kindness that presents itself right that. you can like all of a sudden you're at. the grocery store and there's an. opportunity for you to perform a.

kindness that I I get that that might. mean more to you than uh on a on a. happiness level than like organizing a. charity because organizing a volunteer. day or something is a lot of work and. it's a it can be a pain and there can be. frustrations and even though the end. result is you've done something well at. the end of that day you probably sit in. your chair and you're like oh man that. was a lot but when you just do a small. kindness it's a surprise for you and so. of course you're going to be like that. was the best thing ever I was just the. best dude and it only took me 30 seconds.

yeah and what's neat is there's other. research that we'll talk about down the. line that basically finds that surprise. is an element of um the happiness that. can come out of Acts of Kindness yeah so. yeah I think there's definitely. something to that Chuck yeah and the. best way to scare. people it is so there's another study. I've got another study at my sleeve you. want to hear about it let's hear it um. they were trying to say okay like great. job coming up with a kindness skill but. what are we really measuring here are we. measuring actual acts of kindness making.

people happy or is there some other. thing that we we don't realize we're. measuring so they actually very cleverly. kind of broke it out into a few. components and they had people either do. something kind for others MH an act of. kindness something kind for themselves. still an act of kindness but not for. anybody else totally um extroverted. Behavior that's not kindness so maybe. striking up a neutral conversation about. the weather with The Stranger it is hot.

right um or doing something that's. open-minded but it's not social and it's. not kind and the example that Olivia. gave was engaging with art like going to. see you know going to a museum right. okay all of those things can make you. happy and the the University of. California psychologists wanted to see. if we were accidentally measuring that. and what they found is that the people. who did acts of kindness for other. people were Far and Away happier than. the other three groups yeah pretty.

interesting and in that little uh bit. you mentioned uh one of the the things. it covered for was doing a kindness for. yourself MH there was a 2019 paper uh. from Oxford University where they found. that acts of kindness uh to other people. and acts of kindness to yourself had. about the same positive effect on your. happiness and I didn't read that as like. oh well that just shoots holes in the. previous Theory I saw it as like well. yeah you're you your your brain is still.

receiving those triggers that like. you're doing a kindness and you're. person too and you you need uh. kindnesses to be done for you and if. you're the one doing it then great. exactly you know you should be kind to. yourself be kind to yourself that's. right and Rewind so um I saw something. explained like the feeling that you get. from the helpers High explained um by. pointing out that of kindness are. actually an exertion for us just like.

exercises an exertion anything beyond. what we need to do to survive that day. is technically an exertion and our. bodies created this reward system to. overcome the sense of exertion or pain. or sore muscles or loss of giving up. your goldfish treat to a puppet um and. flooding us with with um chemicals that. make us feel better so that totally. explains the biochemical basis for for. that helper's high for the sense of.

being rewarded by doing an act of. kindness um or just a kindness um and. that it's kind of apparently centrally. located in the Vegas Nerf which if. you'll remember from our orgasm episode. is really responsible for that it's a. huge part of the parasympathetic. autonomic nervous system which is the. opposite of flight it's like chill. and. chill instead of fight ORF flight yeah. like getting your uh breathing under. control and your tummy feeling good and.

your heart rate a little lower stuff. like that uh we talked about it quite a. few times I feel like over the years um. it's only in mammals it's very unique to. mammals and because it is a part of that. autonomic nervous. system uh it it's connected to like. basically all the all the organs right. like it's affecting everything inside. your body uh which is great and it's you. know it's what's going to give you that. warm feeling when it's active uh when.

you've done uh a kindness to someone. that's where that warm feeling is coming. from basically yeah and specifically. it's oxytocin they've linked that to. kindness in that helper high and that is. um it's frequently called The Love. hormone it's it uh is around from every. event like um a a mother holding a. newborn baby skin to skin for the first. time that's a huge oxytocin release to. doing an act of kindness for somebody is. that warm feeling in your chest that. that um that feeling that where like you.

you just suddenly are like I I could if. I really thought about it I could cry. right now like just you just feel so. good and just overwhelmed with positive. feelings that's oxytocin and acts of. kindness have been shown to release. oxytocin that seems to be part of the. basis of that helper's high so however. you can get oxytocin get it that's my. motto yeah totally um interesting thing. too uh jumping back a sec to that uh. 2019 Oxford paper that talked about uh.

doing a kindness on oneself I found this. particularly in interesting okay um just. witnessing an act of kindness can also. have a similar effect on you which is. amazing uh and that makes me wonder if. our old friends uh mirror neurons are. not involved somehow well yeah I would. think so because um empathy has to be. involved like you have to feel something. towards somebody who helping or else you. just wouldn't even think to help them.

you'd probably just be like haha you. know mhm so yeah if empathy is involved. then mirror neurons have to be involved. it's just the way it goes friend but. we've we've I mean who hasn't watched. the uh one of those uh internet videos. on Instagram or wherever where you see a. real kindness and you know they got that. that piano music playing and all of a. sudden you're tearing up like your body. is firing all those same neurons.

apparently according to Oxford as if you. had done that kindness yourself right. like feel good neurons you got that. Rascal for that veteran like you did. that for all intents and purposes none. of us have to do anything as long as. there's some people out there doing. kindnesses and posting those videos on. the internet the rest of us can just get. the benefits from it without having to. lift a finger yeah you go into your. therapist and they're they're like I. know you have a problem with uh empathy. and kindnesses did you do any this week. and you're like yeah I watch like three.

videos exactly it made me feel great. yeah so um should we take another break. and then come back and talk about how it. helps people who uh kindness is uh given. to sure okay we're going to do. [Music]. that.

[Music]. so I think it's beyond ridiculous to say. that um yeah a person who is the. beneficiary of an act of kindness uh is. gets something out of it too they. literally get something out of it in a. lot of times like if it's a a veteran. and the Rascal that bunch of people. donated to buy him mhm um it can be a.

goldfish treat like they they benefit in. that sense but they also benefit. emotionally as well and what they found. in a bunch of different studies is kind. of what we were talking about before. that other elements like surprise the. just the gesture the thought like they. say it's the thought that counts well. some kind of Studies have basically. turned that up that if if you don't just. think about it but you actually follow. through the people people are more moved. by the thought by the gesture than they. are by the Goldfish treat or the Rascal.

although I mean if you give somebody a. rascal they're probably going to be. pretty happy what's a rascal oh it's a. little mobilized getar around cart that. you see people. riding Advanced stage or immobility I. got you all right I didn't know those. were called Rascals that is the original. um trade name for one of the brands and. it's just it's become kind of a. proprietary eponym okay at least in my. house. yeah so um one of the uh experiments.

they did to test this was uh in. 1995 they looked at unhoused folks who. went to the ER a lot for treatment and. they had a controlled group who just got. their regular old ER visit and then they. had another group that had that visit. Plus student volunteers who would chat. them up talk about stuff and life and. listen to them and held conversations. and maybe gave them a goldfish or. something mhm and they found that the.

members of the test group were twice as. likely to rate their care uh higher sure. which you know makes perfect sense and. that uh and this was interesting the. number of er visits among that group. dropped by a third yeah which I guess. indicates that they're healthier I. guess the researchers took it to mean. that the the the unhoused people who. show up to the ER over and over and over. again are basically showing up until. they feel like they're being treated.

like a human being and that that group. were satisfied that they had received. good care for once and they stopped. coming back to try to you know get it. out of the the people in the ER oh and. that is really interesting because. another way to think of that is like why. didn't the people who got that warm care. want to come back and say like boy that. was you know that was pretty great get. that goldfish having a nice conversation. with a student I I totally thought the. same thing too yeah it's interesting so.

um there was another study that involved. cupcakes and who doesn't want to talk. about that it's a good one it is it's a. great one so um the uh the researchers. gave strangers or study participants a. cupcake and said here you go here's a. cupcake you can do whatever you want. with it but you can also give it to a. stranger if you like and apparently 80%. of the participants gave their cupcake. away and I want to those 20% I hope they. didn't tell them what they were actually.

studying cuz I think you'd really have. some real soul searching to to do after. you find out that you're part of the 20%. who kept the cupcake for yourself in a. kindness study yeah they tell them that. like your mouth is full of cupcake and. they reveal that to you and you're like. a what yeah and you just kind of spit it. back into the little wrapper and put it. back and then go give it to a stranger. yeah and that's when they reveal the. milk that you don't get so the 80% of. people who gave the their cupcake away. um they ask them uh how how do you think.

how like how much of an impact do you. think this gesture is going to have. right and this is a really important. thing that they turned up that the. people who received the cupcake rated. their happinesses higher than the person. who gave them the cupcake expected it to. be like a lot higher and um that's kind. of a a human flaw like we're we're um we. have genetic programming to be kind we. also have genetic programming to second.

guess ourselves and be self-conscious. and that prevents us from doing kind. acts of kindness in a lot of ways and. even when we do acts of kindness we. underestimate their effect but the other. part of that cupcake um study that I. found interesting is that the people who. got the cupcake basically said it was. the surprise that um that made it such a. great happy experience for them yeah. like the people who got the cup Cupcake. the 20% who ate it mhm they rated their.

happiness and I'm sure they're fairly. happy but not nearly as happy at the. people that were surprised by a stranger. right giving him them a cupcake yeah so. I feel like we fairly well establish. that being kind is um a good thing and. that it actually exists yeah almost. almost what about your family though. because think about this yeah giving a. cupcake to a stranger who you never. going to see again there's nothing but. pretty much an upside to that it's all.

upside totally but if you if you gave. your cupcake away to a family member mhm. you're going to see that family member. late later that day after they've had a. rough day at the office and they're. probably not feeling much gratitude. towards you for the cupcake you gave. them earlier in the day even though. you're still feeling good about yourself. for having give given them your cupcake. and there in lies the big rub with um. acts of kindness in what are known as um. strong tie relationships like your. family yeah and it seems in the case of.

family. um and I would imagine this might go for. like very close friend groups as well. but sure I'm just speculating but in. this study in. 2017 uh they had a they they showed a. very strong correlation in uh the. happiness level uh not being dictated by. but being influenced by whether or not. these acts of kindness were noticed and. acknowledged sure so they got people. that uh knew W people had just gotten. married and they said spend a couple of.

weeks recording. instances uh instance instance oh man. times in which one spouse would uh help. out their partner put aside their own. like if they you in the middle doing. something you would stop with a small. act of kindness that your partner needs. in that moment and then also while. you're doing this record your emotional. state and they found that acts of. kindness that had the most impacts on. both the giver and the receiver was when. they were noticed and acknowledged MH uh. and also found unsurprisingly that when.

the or maybe surprisingly yeah for sure. uh when the receiver did not uh. consciously noticed it it still resulted. in improved moods for both uh especially. the giver sure but they were like these. people are in the honeymoon phase of. their relationship if we did the same. experiment 10 years down the road would. that second part still hold up right and. um there's a there's a group there's a a. pair of researchers there a couple John. and Julie gotman and they um are.

incredibly famous incredibly well. researched and well read and um. well-sited like couples researchers like. they're the real deal legit yeah like. marriage therapists yes exactly they. actually are the ones who teach the. marriage therapists who go teach other. marriage therapists like they're doing. like really great firsthand research and. one of the things they found over the. course of their career is that acts of. kindness even incred ibly small acts of. kindness that can take the the form of a.

huh when your spouse is telling you. about something you couldn't care less. about and you're actually really busy. just that counts as an act of kindness. and that the couples who give one. another more acts of kindness than not I. think they came up with some ratio of. like four positive interactions to one. negative interaction is like the key to. success um that those couples who who. did more kind things to one another had. you know much more successful and. Lasting marriages and that again those.

acts can be very very small and they'll. still have a big impact yeah because. what they're talking about and this is. something I've seen in my own marriage. at like Emily and I have been together. for over 20 years now like all in and. once you get into the multiple decade. span you find um and and you would be. wise to to learn how to do this more but. you find that uh attention is one of the. biggest. parts of being happily married sure and. that get go you know that jbes with what.

you were talking about there with the. study or the you know the Gman stuff. with like you know uh I think when. you've been with someone for a long time. you find yourself in your routines and. like oh I'm reading this thing and uh. but like Emily will come home with a. story about something that just happened. and like the the spouse is wise who will. stop what they're doing just for a. moment and pay attention to them and a. way and do more than a huh like oh wow.

that's really cool that that happened to. you today and chances are you can. probably get back to what you're doing. the unwise person does not uh or they. act put out that they have to stop what. they're doing or that their attention is. diverted and that my friend is not a. recipe for success and I'm having to. continually sort of uh in a like train. myself still because I think certain. people have deficits uh when it comes to. stuff like that and also just there's so.

much stuff now when you know uh it was a. lot easier before there were smartphones. and the internet and like constant other. things that are distracting you but you. are you are wise to sort of try and be. aware of those distractions to pay. attention to your family and your spouse. so the way that the gans's put it is. that when your spouse or your friend or. whoever is Meaningful to you brings up. something and saying something that that. is asking for your attention they're. making a bid for attention and you have. a choice like you said you can you can.

pay attention to them it's what they. call turning toward you can um snap at. them for always bothering you when. you're trying to read uh or you can. ignore them which is not as bad as. snapping at them all the time but when. those ignoring um instances add up uh it. can have a really harmful impact on the. relationship so I guess the upshot of. this is that the gans's prove that. successful relationship is exhausting. [Laughter].

right and you never get to read the. stuff you want to read on your phone am. I right. guys yours bothering me I guess we. should talk a little bit uh here toward. the end about gratitude and. guilt uh because acts of kindness um. many times will spring from guilt uh and. here's the thing with guilt like being. being consumed by guilt is no good for. anybody but a little bit of guilt every.

now and then can can lead to uh more. generosity um ask the Catholics I feel I. feel like it's almost uh more of a it's. not like oh I feel so guilty so I have. to do this it's just like boy I feel a. little guilty so I'm just a little more. aware and on point and um trying to do. the right thing yeah especially if. you've you know you've hurt someone's. feelings and that's what you're feeling. guilty about that's going to turn your.

kindness into hyperdrive but researchers. have found that your your kindness is. being laser focused on that person. you're marshalling all of your kindness. resources and you're focusing on that. poor person who probably doesn't even. want to talk to you right now but you're. like I got to be kind to you because I. feel so guilty and what they found is. that actually that kind that level of. kindness excludes other people you're. walking past other chances to be kind to. other people need acts of kindness. because you're so focused on this person.

so that guilty sense that can bring you. to acts of kindness can very easily. become overwat and overblown and nobody. wins right and they've also found that. uh ignoring like that could cause you to. ignore did you already say that ignore. other people pretty much yeah you're. you're not you're you're not paying. attention to other people's needs just. focusing on the person who's mad at you. because you feel guilty the the. Gratitude piece I don't fully understand. in this context um because they they. have found in experiments that gratitude.

does seem to uh encourage generosity. when even when it cost you something. yeah normally like people are in a good. mood if you're in a good mood you um. will probably do like acts of kindness. holding a door for somebody doesn't cost. you a thing it's an act of kindness. people consider that a kind gesture but. if you feel gratitude because somebody. else did something nice you or you're. just happy to be alive you you feel that. sense of gratitude you're actually more. likely to give somebody your only. cupcake like something that's okay all.

right yeah that makes sense okay and. then the other thing about it though is. that it doesn't even have to be. gratitude toward the person who gave you. that cupcake or you don't have to do. something back to them you can actually. take that gratitude and give it to a. third party which is pretty cool like. like that whole Pay It Forward thing but. what another study found I think back in. 2006 they found that um that third that. paying it forward thing is unconscious. and that when they pointed it out hey.

you did a really nice thing for this. other person the third party because the. first party did something nice to you. the second party if that makes sense in. a super legal jargon way right um and. and when they told them that that sense. of gratitude just kind of vanished like. when it when it became conscious it went. away but unconsciously they were more. prone to help other people or commit. acts of kindness for other people. because they were feeling gratitude that. somebody else did something nice for. them have you ever seen uh we talked a.

little bit about I think you should. leave the sketch show from Tim Robinson. did you ever watch any of it yeah yeah. I've watched it all oh okay that it. always makes me think the Pay It Forward. thing maybe I don't know they're all. great but one of his best my favorite. sketches ever of his is the drive-thru. when uh that whole. notion of buying like paying for. someone's uh drive-thru behind you and. then he's speeds around and then order. you know 55 Burgers 55 milkshakes 100. pizzas 55 coffees yeah so funny yeah.

yeah that is oh boy I love that guy uh. what else Chuck uh well we can wrap it. up with a little bit on compassion. fatigue um doing kindnesses are is great. uh but they have found that if you are. someone who works in an industry where. you have to have a lot of compassion if. you're a hospice nurse if uh if you were. a single parent uh and you have a child. with uh High needs if you work at a at a. shelter for unhoused people and you're.

just constantly having to give of. yourself every day uh that you know you. can exhaust yourself of that and it can. be very difficult uh to work those hours. of of being nothing but empathetic all. day long and doing kindnesses all day. long and that's compassion fatigue um. you can have mood swings uh you can be. irritable you can be anxious and. depressed and like bad things can happen. so that's like why you need to take care.

of yourself like self self-care is so. important when you have a situation like. that yeah you can also lose your general. like basic drive for compassion like you. could start being like I don't care. about any of these people that I'm. treating in the ER anymore because I'm. so burned out that's tough stuff yes. fortunately that's pretty limited to. certain occupations or situations like. people taking care of a loved one at. home um 247 basically and yeah there's a. lot of resources if you are thinking.

that you might have compassion fatigue. you should just start reading about it. on the web and there's a lot of really. good solutions to that that can help. yeah take it easy on yourself because. it's painful to admit sometimes that. stuff is very hard and that you feel. resentment and like it's human like let. yourself up sure nice nice That's what I. say and there's one last thing about. kindness that I thought was really great. um like can be hard to be mindful it can. be hard to cultivate gratitude like.

those aren't just things that just snap. into into mind like when you want them. to right the great thing about kindness. is it's an action so you can just do it. like you don't have to like it's not. something you have to cultivate or work. on or a mindset you have to be in you. can just do it and again as we've shown. as study after study after study after. study has shown it's beneficial to you. and the receiver and it keeps Society. going so said Darwin so do it yeah do a.

little experiment if you're if you find. you're having a a very blue period uh. try holding open that door do a kindness. or two and see what that does for you. and just just chart it and see what. happens very nice well since Chuck said. charted everybody that means it's time. for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this uh sporty. I thought this was interesting okay uh. this was in regards to. our uh Bad Business moves or bad.

business decisions sure and this was a. good one and I as an NBA fan I can't. believe I didn't know this and you're an. NBA fan too yes you'll appreciate this. hey guys uh was late to the show. discovered you during the pandemic and. was happy to have your voices in my ears. through those long days on the worsh. business deals I thought I'd share one. of my favorites uh when the ABA merged. with the NBA back in the 70s uh some. teams became NBA franchises like uh the. Nets and Indiana and San Antonio and uh.

Denver the nuggets the rest were bought. out by the NBA like you know hey I'm. sorry Kentucky Colonels uh we'll give. you $3 million to stop being a an ABA. team you know you're bad if somebody. pays you $3 million to stop. playing uh the owners of the St Louis. well they just had to make him go away. you know uh the owners of the St Louis. Spirit the silna brothers negotiated a. smaller deal 2.2 million which included. a share of Television rights in. perpetuity oh up through 2013 this.

earned the sness about $300 million for. not operating an NBA team from the 70s. uh in 2014 the NBA finally bought. themselves out of that Clause by an. agreement of a lumpsum $500 million. payment what so the S s's total uh. pocket was $800 million from the NBA uh. to not have an NBA team uh may not be. the worst business deal of all time may. have been the worst in Pro Sports worst.

I guess for the NBA sure that's amazing. I had never heard that so that is from. uh Steve Sonnen in. Seattle sorry about the SuperSonics. Washington thanks Steve that was a great. that was a great one I had not heard. anything about that and it's kind of. nice to hear some it's amazing some. people in Kentucky making $800 million. Northern Kentucky probably too yeah uh. if you want want to get in touch with us. like Steve did you can send us an email. send it off to stuff podcast.

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