J. Edgar Hoover: Evil G-Man Pt. 2 | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. you know us because you were just. listening to part one of Jed gaho and. here's part two so let's go stuff you. should. know first of all I hope everyone had a. nice. Wednesday that's nice y cuz I assume. we're going to release these as as we.

usually do on a Tuesday Thursday when. it's a two-parter yeah it' be weird. otherwise right I hope no one did any uh. research on that Wednesday hope no one. watched that Clint Eastwood movie no on. on that Wednesday or any day yeah I. heard it was brainless and. passionless is that Ebert uh no I think. it was like a IMDb reviewer oh okay just. a regular Sho yeah who has strong. opinions all right uh to catch everybody.

up we are talking about Jay Edgar Hoover. who headed the FBI for 48 years through. eight presidential. terms uh who and I think where we left. off it was um through World War II uh. which we should mention I don't think we. got to this last time this pretty good. stat MH uh during World War II he. managed to quadruple the size of the FBI. that's crazy it grew four fourx during. World War II uh which would set him up. up very nicely uh as we teased in the.

last episode to go and root out the. commies yeah which was something that. the average American was totally fine. with the FBI doing like before like they. kind of broke their teeth on um like. chasing Nazis rooting out Nazi. sympathizers America was totally fine. with that because we were at war with. the Nazis it made sense now we're in the. Cold War this this really kind of uneasy. weird war with the.

yeah so yeah the the Soviets were our. enemies therefore communism was the. enemy of America so yeah FBI go find. those guys uh don't tell us how you're. doing this just go do it yeah uh I know. when last time we were we didn't even. finish answering because I don't think. we knew for sure the two presidents that. loved him the two that didn't like him. and then the four that played ball but I. think we can throw Harry Truman and the. did not like him Camp yeah uh because it. seems that Truman was one of the only. smart people that was like Hey this FBI.

is getting a little out of control and. there's potential for this to become the. American gestapo here uh to no avail. because the power just grew and grew. despite what druman thought so that is a. great example of about the time where. the power of the FBI and in particular. the power of J G Hoover became potent. enough that it was decoupled from the. executive branch it became its own thing.

yeah and J G Hoover was as powerful as. presidents from about this point on. because as you said Truman didn't like. him or the FBI or what it could become. and it didn't amount to anything yeah. this is where it started joke except. well never mind I was going to make a. political joke but I'm not going to do. that okay I'm going to be a bigger. person so uh we're talking the late. 1940s here um there were top secret. programs being run um trying to.

infiltrate the American Communist Party. um trying to infiltrate uh the Spy. network of the Soviet Union MH uh it one. thing that we'll probably do an episode. on at some point is the execution of uh. the rosenbergs Ethel and Julius. Rosenberg um but that was that was sort. of one of the end results of this. program was when he executed that. married couple for Espionage not he but. you know he he didn't literally do it. he's certainly said it in motion I'm.

sure he would have pulled that lever if. they' given him the opportunity yeah. speculation of course so just like back. in the day when he created the criminal. records division um and used that to. essentially like get Hollywood on the. FBI side he did he he went back to that. Playbook but instead of just creating. like movies that celebrated the FBI he. also sought to root out any kind of. subversive message that might show up in.

movies too like you said before he. didn't like James Kagney playing a. gangster but he said okay you can do it. as long as you die like the gangster has. to die right they took it further in the. Cold War where there they were like not. only does the gangster have to die he. has to basically be waving an American. flag when he dies or he kills a. communist as he's dying that essentially. is what we need to do here in these. movies from now on yeah and and also set. of motion um AC actions that would lead.

to the eventual Hollywood Blacklist uh. had secret files on artists um Charlie. Chaplan Orson Wells was another and this. is you know just from that time period. he very famously I know we talked about. the fact that he had files on John linen. and people like that later on in the 60s. and 70s loved his files uh but also. little things like uh Hey that movie. It's a Wonderful Life um I don't like it. uh it's on a list now because it's. subersive because it demonizes big Banks.

and um you know problems facing the. Common Man uh I don't like the message. of It's a Wonderful Life yeah we'll talk. I I think this is going to have to make. one of our Christmas specials because. it's been on my list for years now oh. yeah that'll be good to fill that out a. little bit Yeah but essentially it's. it's like you said like that kind of. message imagine finding It's a Wonderful. Life subversive that is how on guard. they were looking for any not just Pro. communist theme but anti-American or.

anti- capitalist theme there were FBI. agents I don't know if that was their. job or just one of the things they did. occasionally was go to the movies and. just watch movies to to see if they. needed to be investigated yeah that's. what the FBI one of the things the FBI. was doing at the time and again bear in. mind we know this with the the um. benefit of history with hindsight at the. time America did not know that the FBI. was going and seeing movies I think a. lot of American would have had a problem.

with that um and it as a result the FBI. had a really great um. reputation across the board across the. political. Spectrum yeah I wonder if they reported. back like uh this movie is subversive. and has some third act. problems exactly they introduced a gun. in the First Act and they didn't shoot. it in the. third uh another thing he had agents do. was listen to music um long before the. pmrc and uh and Tipper Gore came along.

uh he had the FBI listening to R&B music. that uh had what he deemed obscene. lyrics and uh he called it race music. and he said that you know when this. stuff gets to the ears of white. teenagers we're in big trouble so that. he was he was sticking his fingers like. you said into every facet of American. Life um including as we'll find out. right now uh the early gay rights. movement yeah so the the gay rights.

movement would have fallen into the. obscenity file which I think you. referenced in the last episode that he. had a huge huge collection of. pornography it wasn't just that there. were files on the sexual activities and. um proclivities of everyday Americans. and also um American Elite like leaders. and celebrities and all that um but the. the the gay community was. investigated as a as it because it was. obscene they actually were they went. after them for using the mail to send.

out mailers that had no trace of. sexuality associated with them it was. just PR gay mailers because gayness in. the FBI's eyes was obscene sending out. prog gay pamplets in the mail was tanam. out to sending obscenity through the. mail and so they they would use like. these just the slightest pretense and. then in a lot of cases no pretense. whatsoever to go investigate and often. infiltrate some of these movements that.

that um that J G saw as unamerican yeah. and as you you know we talked a lot. about his uh PR Savvy um some of the. things he did was after the fact he. would go in and just kind of make stuff. up to justify things he did. um one of which and you know I I'll get. to where I was going here in terms of. the gay rights movement but uh Ma Barker. oh yeah was a uh a famous matriarch of a.

crime family and her sons did a lot of. crimes they brought Mama along Ma Barker. to um you know uh to sort of uh distract. you know that they had this little old. lady with them uh to distract them and. stuff but by all accounts she was never. actually involved in any crimes and he. made up all this stuff afterward to. justify the fact that they killed her. yeah the FBI killed her and her favorite. son Fred in a shootout in Florida yeah. so he he basically said that Ma Barker.

LED this criminal like family criminal. ring right when in fact she was the mom. but she wasn't leading anything no like. you said they just brought her along to. deflect suspicion from the rest of the. gang right people today still think mob. Barker was a criminal mastermind yeah. all because J G Hoover made that up back. in the day to justify the FBI doing that. and you were kind of using that as an. example for him making stuff up after. the fact that and that had to do with. the gay community yeah EX exactly um he.

he basically created what's now known as. the lavender scare which was um hey I'm. trying to root out uh gay people period. and gay people who work uh within the. government especially because they are. potential security risks for um the fact. that like a Russian spy might have dirt. on them to Blackmail them so they could. blackmail them to give up government. secrets so we need to purge the. government of uh gay employees basically. iron notwithstanding uh as we'll get to.

Hoover sexuality in more G later on. right so um yeah that was the lavender. scare it was quite effective it's. referenced indirectly in Clue the movie. Michael mckeen's being blackmailed. because he's gay and he's a government. worker that's a direct reference to that. that whole unhappy period in America's. even mentioned in that movie right yeah. for sure he was the one who supposedly. called the yeah somebody I can't. remember who used the phone or no maybe.

Tim Curry I don't remember and one of. those groups was the mine society and. they were we talked about them in our. episode on Stonewall Uprising we talked. about them in the uh episode about the. TR the trans Uprising that came before. Stonewall in San Francisco in the. tenderloin the mine Society was there. they were the foils to those groups they. wanted to gain respect for the gay. community by pointing out the gay. community goes to work and goes to. church and feeds the their dog and um.

and and tips their newspaper delivery. guy um just like you that was the madine. society's thing uh but they also had. kind of like a a brutal little sense of. humor they would frequently mail J gaho. invitations to their meetings because. they were infiltrated anyway but they. were also making reference to the rumors. that Jay Grover was gay and they were. like come join us in our in our meetings. and apparently it used to drive him up. the wall whenever he got one of those. that's pretty funny yeah um so we talked.

about the conundrum that is Jay Edgar. Hoover Uh despite the fact that he was. uh a Ka in college and hired all these. sort of um you know Legacy Confederate. supporter types um he was not. sympathetic to the clan at all uh. because they fell into the the bucket of. a vigilante organization um that would. flout the rule of law so he was not into. that uh the FBI I was uh were the ones.

who uncovered the Mississippi Burning. murders of. 1964 so uh I'm not saying like that he. was just some great friend of uh of the. black race or anything like that but um. just sort of one of those odd conundrums. of his. career yeah I've never seen an. explanation for that aside from he found. the KKK to FL the law that he didn't. like that they were Vigilantes and you. can't have vigilantes in J Edgar. Hoover's America so yeah but they they.

did have some successes in investigating. some civil rights murders and crimes um. again though this is at a time when. America is totally unaware of what the. FBI's tactics are and so because the FBI. you know investigated the Mississippi. Burning murders in 1964 and went so far. as to set up a field office in Jackson. Mississippi um all of a sudden the NAACP. the ACLU they love the FBI that's on one.

side on the other side our conservative. Americans who hate the idea of any. communism infiltrating into America he's. fighting communism very publicly um one. of the masterful things he did was to. use Joseph McCarthy as a foil Joseph. McCarthy was off the rails um accusing. anybody and anyone of being a communist. on the flimsiest evidence and eventually.

public opinion kind of turned on him but. Jagger Hoover used that as like I'm. fighting Communists for real and I'm. levelheaded above the boards and super. competent and it helped him raise his. his status among Communists hating and. fearing Americans too so at this point. say the early to mid-60s everyone. essentially considers J G Hoover an. American hero and the FBI as a. nonpartisan. law enforcement agency that's above.

reproach that's right uh but not. everybody and we'll take a break because. we're GNA talk about one person who. didn't like him and that was Martin. Luther King. Jr stuff you should know. [Music].

uh all right we're back um we were. talking about how J gaho was um just. building his power by uh doing things. that uh would win over the hearts of. Americans uh left and right black and. white and uh in 1956 uh we need to back. up just a little bit because under. Eisenhower uh Hoover created uh. something called coin till Pro uh the. counter intelligence program we've.

talked about it a little bit on. different episodes I see on my master. list the one that the guy made that. we're he wrote down everything we ever. mentioned doing a full episode on and. you have coin till Pro listed as one. that you wanted to do a full episode on. yeah it's on my ideas list still okay. just wanted to remind you in it's just. such a bummer sometimes I'm like I can't. bring myself to to doing that one yet so. going till Pro comes along uh initially. was fighting the Communist party but. then expanded. uh to uh surveil and and get files on uh.

the Civil Rights Movement civil rights. leaders uh black power groups uh also. white supremist. organizations um but we had you know I. mentioned that. um Martin Luther King Jr was not a fan. uh that is to say the least um they were. they were enemies in a big way uh in. 1957 Hoover um had him surveilled had. him wiretapped um um learned of uh.

King's infidelities and basically like. he was known to do um was like Hey we've. got this stuff on you by the way here's. a little a tidy package uh it's. Anonymous um uh you should probably go. kill yourself is is what that package. also said and all of this supposedly. stems from a few things um one is that. apparently Martin Luther King Jr ignored. a phone call from him one time no and. that disrespect just consumed Hoover and.

King also very publicly uh questioned. whether the FBI was uh like why more. resour uh resources weren't being used. and put out to um investigate crime. against civil rights leaders uh. Mississippi Burning case aside right uh. he was like there's no black um FBI. agents you guys are not investigating uh. black crime and crimes against civil. rights leaders like you should and so.

because of all of this um he was not a. fan of Martin Luther King. Jr and here's the point where we should. at least mention that there was uh a. rumor that has never been proven one way. or the other that Jay Edgar Hoover was. of mixed race oh really yeah there was a. wo article in. 2011 uh where a woman uh came out and. said hey my great uncle like when we. were young said that Jay Edgar Hoover. was his second cousin and he could prove.

it but he no one ever talked about it. out loud because we were all scared to. because Hoover would have probably had. us killed or something or we would have. disappeared and if you look up J it was. Jay Edgar Hoover Uh of mixed race or. part black you'll get just scores and. scores of Articles of people that that. think he was uh which could help explain. like he was a sort of a self-hating like. the fact that he may have been of mixed. race. and also gay uh could help explain the.

fact that he went after civil rights. leaders and uh and the gay community as. sort of a self-hating sort of thing. right that certainly tracks um but. there's never been anything that's been. proven I think some people are saying. that it's absolutely not true but it's. the kind of thing we should at least. mention right um for sure so I want to. talk a little more about that package. that arrived anonymously supposedly the. FBI. made it seem as if it was written by a.

disillusioned black supporter of Martin. Luther King who had somehow come upon. audio tapes of his sexual escapades in. hotels somehow right and that um they. sent it right after he got the Nobel. Peace Prize in. 1964 and his wife ketta received the. package and she opened it and um I was. looking into it a little bit she wrote. an autobiography in. 2017 and she said still to that day she. did not believe that that was MLK on.

those tapes she did not believe that he. had ever been unfaithful that he had. such a guilty conscience he would not. have been able to walk around carrying. that um he would have had to have just. blurted it out or something like that. and that that wasn't that wasn't him. that that was all just made up and I. thought that was fascinating because you. hear so much about like it's just just. put out there as a matter of fact that. that MLK cheated on his wife and that. the FBI had audio recording on it never. even occurred to me that the FBI had.

sent him potentially something that. wasn't him that had framed him and. exactly the way that people walk around. today thinking Ma Barker was a criminal. mastermind it's entirely possible that. we all walk around thinking MLK um used. to go to sex orgies because the FBI made. that up that was totally within the. realm of J G Hoover's FBI's tactics yeah. it's a good point it just really makes. you question some of the stuff that we.

know about things for sure because that. was exactly the kind of thing they did. they used underhanded tactics in co-. Andel Pro where they would try to break. up marriages like you said they would. try to drive people to Suicide um for. organizations they would send in people. who would. essentially put they would they would. identify who was maybe the the second in. command and try to get them to turn on. the first in command and just create. turmoil they did it um everywhere. including the Black Panthers as we. talked about extensively in the Black.

Panther episode yeah that's just that's. just what they did and I also saw that. it one of the things they would do is. send them to meetings to just ask all. sorts of dumb mundane questions to drag. the meeting out and make it so boring. that people wouldn't come back again. yeah oh yeah he had moles all over the. place using all sorts of disruptive. tactics yeah pretty crazy really. interesting yeah so we talked a lot sort. of about the presidents that were um. using him uh tolerating him and working. with him in different.

capacities uh Nixon like you said loved. the guy because Nixon was a crook and. was game for any kind of um ill gotten. gains that he could get through Hoover. they were Kindred Spirits yeah he was. like this is all just great this is fine. I love you um he did consider firing him. at one point like uh many have um and. again we kind of went over that in the. first episode most of them uh had their. reasons whether or not they had dirt. against them. um or I did find some historians that.

say that. Hoover may have had dirt on these people. he may not have it could it could have. been a career-long bluff but he had such. power and worked in such secrecy that. nobody knew what he had on anyone so it. wasn't worth um it wasn't worth going up. against him to to like test that and. find out yeah um I saw elsewhere also. and all of this probably came from. Beverly Gates she did such a a great. like investigation of him as a person.

and the impacts he had one of the. explanations I saw is that some. presidents and other elected officials. were just plain scared of the guy he. just had so much power and was so. willing to use it in just the worst ways. to to personally ruin your life if you. wanted to that to to be so bold as to go. on his get on his bad side some people. are just like it's I'm I don't have the. the medal for that kind of thing and. then another explanation I saw was that.

all those presidents who couldn't. couldn't resist the temptation of using. the Black Arts that he was a master of. yeah that automatically was dirt that he. had on them right yeah that's point you. know like they he he'd be like okay you. can get rid of me but I'm taking you. down with me so you probably should just. leave me on the job yeah this quote from. uh LBJ was pretty great and it kind of. sums it up was um I would rather have. him inside the tent pissing out than. outside the tent pissing in so like it's.

better to keep an eye on this guy than. fire him and see what happens next. exactly and again this was like so in. there was a big you scratch my back I'll. scratch yours going on with all eight of. the presidents that he served under and. again it did not matter what political. leanings or Stripes they had what. ideology they came from he he would find. a way to work with them and get them to. work for him yeah he we mentioned early. on in the the first episode I believe. that the kennedies were not fans uh nor.

he of them um he specifically oversaw. the investigation into the JFK. assassination was later criticized for. not looking more into the. conspiracy um the various conspiracies. but certainly that the American. government could have somehow been. involved uh he didn't really didn't like. Bobby Kennedy um Bobby was young he was. 35 years old he was seen by Hoover and. others as underqualified and he would.

you know he would go to work and and. take off his tie in his jacket and just. work in his in his unbuttoned suit shirt. with his sleeves rolled up and Hoover. did not like that kind of thing at all. when he wanted appearances to be very. tidy in very. oldfashioned um just really interesting. stuff uh I think it was. um LBJ that gave him an indefinite. exemption from mandatory government. retirement at age 70 which was the law.

at the time um and this was in 1964 just. a few days before Hoover was to testify. for the Warren Commission MH uh and he. you know he stayed on that job until he. died when I was a one-year-old baby uh. one and change May 2nd uh 1972 at the. age of 77 he died from a heart attack. yeah that's that's how we quit. died popular yeah that's the thing like.

you you said one of the reasons like. probably some presidents didn't want to. take him on was just out of his. popularity um he he was just looked up. to by a huge swath of American society. for essentially the whole time he was on. the job so much so that he could also. alter public opinion about things like. you explained how he was not a fan of. Martin Luther King he came out and. called um Martin Luther King America's. quote most notorious liar at a time when.

the same year that MLK was given the. Nobel Peace Prize where he was at his. his peak of popularity or he was. ascending to the peak of popularity and. reverence right. um like jger Hoover comes out he's like. I don't like him he's a liar and a lot. of America was like yeah totally he's a. liar we agree with you uh he could just. kind of sway things like that too he. also had the willingness to to do stuff. like that if he thought it would serve. him well or if he hated so somebody so.

much that he would publicly denounce. them because they didn't return his call. right you know when I read that story I. was like no way but then the more I. learned about the guy it's like it seems. like that could have been a thing he. thought so much of himself that being. ignored by a prominent civil rights. leader was like all right you're on the. list so amazing you talked about how um. Bobby Kennedy and he did not like each. other apparently the minations of the.

social lives of elected officials was so. Loosey Goosey I'm sure still is but was. so Loosey Goosey during the Kennedy. administration that Bobby would borrow. the Los Angeles field office director's. car to go visit Marilyn Monroe when he. was having an affair with her that be. the head of that FBI in Los Angeles no. Bobby they both were having an affair. with Marilyn oh did they M I don't think. I knew that and supposedly he had. borrowed the field office uh director's.

car and went to go visit Maryland the. day that she died and that some people. trace her suicide to having just been. broken up with by Bobby Kennedy who was. again using the field office of Los. Angeles director's car to go do. that well despite all this uh like we. said he remained popular um in 1971. there was a Gallop pole that found.

74% 74% it's a pretty high number of. Americans thought he was doing an. excellent or good job uh and then only. 7% thought he was doing a poor or bad. job um I imagine in 1971 you know kind. of through the 60s that 7% were sort of. the most hardcore you know leftwing. hippies that were around at the time. they're still mad about the rosenbergs. probably yeah I mean they they seem like. the only people in America that didn't. like the guy yeah so yes the thing is is.

he wasn't immune to to changes in public. opinion and shifts in public opinion um. there was a point where Nixon got. frustrated with him and actually this is. about the time where he was thinking of. firing him because Jagger Hoover. essentially said no I can't do any more. of your dirty tricks The public's mad at. me because they're learning about stuff. that I've done and said like for example. he told the the White House that the. Kent State protesters that were killed. by the National Guard invited and got.

what they deserved and he just became. more and more of a loose cannon the. older he got apparently he would take. hours long naps in the in his office. during the day um he just he just wasn't. somebody he was too powerful to be that. loose of a cannon um but he also he was. sensitive to how people viewed him he. was a perfectionist so he wanted. everybody to think he was perfect uh so. when public opinion would kind of like. EB and Flow he would say like Nixon no I. can't help you out so Nixon turned to.

his own dirty tricks group and used. former FBI agents to to carry out his. tricks when um when Jay Grover wouldn't. have the FBI directly do it anymore yeah. and I think that happened on the heels. of uh in 1971 um there was a group that. broke in to a field office an FBI field. office in Pennsylvania and stole U stole. some coin tail Pro documents some top. topc secret documents that were released.

to uh some to the media and some to. members of Congress that didn't even. know this stuff and this was during the. Nixon Administration and it was very. embarrassing uh but also just really. screwed up what Nixon was was up to um. so it was it was a big public thing um I. think Hoover sort of backed off on it it. was such a big deal like what was. released that he he backed down from. really pursuing the uh whoever leaked to. those Pentagon Papers right um and that.

that just ni wouldn't do for Nixon so. that's why like you said he turned to. dudes like Gordon ly yeah so um I say we. take a break and then we come back and. talk about the tide turning and just. public opinion about Hoover and his. personal life after the break what do. you think let's do. it Stu you know. [Music].

okay so almost immediately after. Hoover's death um stuff starts coming. out that cointelpro Breakin in. Pennsylvania was a huge turning point. that happened in 1971 he died in. 1972 I think by. 1975 the Senate um was undertaking.

investigations into some of these abuses. that had been revealed by the coel pro. uh papers and a as more and more stuff. came out Jer Hoover's image completely. turned and was tarnished um and it. became what we think of him today. starting around the mid 70s before that. again American hero after that I mean. sure there are a lot of people with crew. cuts and pocket protectors who were. still totally fine with all the tactics.

he' done but most Americans started to. change their opinion of him uh starting. around then yeah absolutely uh this is. also when the government was like Hey. that guy uh that was that headed the FBI. for 48 years maybe that's not such a. good idea right uh to have give someone. that much power so in. 1976 uh Congress had a 10-year term. limit for uh the director of the FBI and. the justice department got together and.

was like we need good uh some new. guidelines here that really separate uh. things out so so the FBI isn't just like. the um the police wing of the White. House op office yeah like the new thing. is like if the president says hi to you. in the hall you can't even say hi back. you just have to walk past him. yeah so um I thought that would get a. chuckle out there we go um no it was it. was good but also semi- believable so uh.

yeah so we have this terrible image of. Jer Hoover um these days but there's. another another kind of facet to it that. isn't necessarily terrible it's more. just fascinating and that is you know a. question was J G Hoover gay and aside. from say like Photo documentary. evidence it's it's essentially. everything else you could possibly need. to say like yes this guy was gay he was. gay because he wasn't even hiding it in.

a lot of ways he was living out in plain. sight which again kind of goes to under. underscore how powerful he was he was. essentially living in a gay marriage. with another man and all the people. around him knew it and no one was. comfortable talking about it yeah so. this was Clyde Tolson uh portrayed by. Army Hammer in the Clint Eastwood movie. and uh although didn't see the movie I. did read a lot about it today and and.

the movie is um that's a big part of the. movie is like um making no qualms about. the fact that they were um essentially. married to one another right um Hoover. backing up just a little bit he lived. with his mom um in the home that he grew. up in until she died in 1938 he was a. 43y old man nothing wrong with that. necessarily uh just pointing that out he. never married obviously um he he had a a. very forward- facing public um.

relationship with uh Dorothy LaMore the. uh the actor um some people and this is. again with it sort of the different. biographers takes uh I saw one. biographer say oh they were he is not. gay they he was absolutely in love with. Dorothy LaMore that was the love of his. life who said that it was one of the. biographers and he said it was uh. absolutely true because uh Dorothy. LaMore never denied that was the case oh. okay um other people say no no come on.

she was a beard and that was a fake. romance created for PR um he always said. he couldn't find an old-fashioned girl. uh but it was like you said it was it. was welln sort of sort of like a lot of. stuff when you work in politics uh I. remember when my friend worked on. Capitol Hill like 30 something years ago. and he would talk about George Bush. senior's uh. Affair and mistress and he was like yeah.

everyone knows that that's going on and. I was like how does this stuff not get. out and he's like it's Capitol Hill he's. like there are a lot of just Secrets. within this city within this very small. area that are just sort of out in the. open Secrets that somehow just don't get. talked about in the mainstream press. this was back then I think it's probably. a little bit different now um but. apparently everybody in Washington uh. knew and I guess sort of quad I accepted. the fact that Clyde Tolson and J Grover.

were in love let's talk about how the. evidence that people knew and accepted. the fact shall we sure uh every morning. Jay G Hoover in the bureau limousine um. would go pick up Clyde Tolson on the way. to work every morning every day they. would go eat lunch together at Harvey's. uh can I say something real quick yeah I. did see one historian say something kind. of funny uh when he was talking about. the fact that they came left together. for work he said this is a time when car.

pooling was not in fashion right it was. probably considered communist maybe so. so um that's you know all very. circumstantial then you so lunch. together you said they had lunch every. single day together at Harvey's yeah um. on the house I I read or saw somewhere. um and then they would vacation together. yeah apparently um they would go to. Miami during the winter they would spend. a month every year in La Hoya. with Pat and Richard Nixon a couple's.

vacation right there's plenty of. photographs of them hanging out on the. beach together and then the one that. gets me the one where it's like okay. this group of people was totally aware. of this and totally accepting of it I. know where you're going they would send. joint invitations to them to parties. yeah like you did not just send Jay. Edgar Hoover an invitation to a social. event you sent Jay Edgar Hoover and. Clyde Tolson an invitation to the social.

event or else you were on Hoover's s. list yeah and they sent joint thank you. notes for stuff yeah like a couple they. were a couple the only thing I'll say is. that you and I get joint invitations for. weddings and. stuff okay yeah sure we a couple of. sorts we've never been to Miami together. no nor have we spent a month in La. Hoya that's on my list though we spent a. a weekend in La Hoya I think for Comic. Con we spent a week in Guatemala.

together that's true so we're we're. comparing apples to oranges here I think. yeah and we're just getting around of. course um but there was a um who knows. how many real letters because um his uh. personal longtime secretary Helen Gandy. um portrayed by Naomi Watts in the movie. um like we said shredded and burned all. of his personal files uh a lot of it was. ently boring stuff like IRS stuff and. pet vet records and just boring.

day-to-day things but among that stuff. was all of his personal corresponden and. letters um and who knows what was in. those letters because uh we do know of. one um you know love letter uh that. existed to Tolson from. 1943 yeah I don't remember the exact. quote but essentially what he was saying. is like you know there's no words can. describe how much love I have in my. heart for for you and um like it's a. love letter it's a love letter it.

certainly isn't appropriate for a boss. to his right-hand man cuz I don't know. if we spelled this out this was his. right-hand man this guy was his number. two at the FBI essentially the entire. time he was at the FBI so even accepting. the idea that maybe they they were a gay. married couple essentially um at the. very least all of this stuff is not. appropriate for a a um boss and his. underling at the very least yeah um he.

also left tulson his entire State uh. about 550 Grand back then a little more. than 4 million today um the uh flag. draped on his casket at his funeral was. given to tulson uh tulson was buried. with him uh when he died there were all. kinds of rumors and things and and. columns written about this sort of. things mocking him at the time um Tolson. said on his FBI application that he.

handed Hoover that he was quote not. interested in women uh and then Hoover. also had a collection of photos of. tulson uh asleep in bed um and you know. they weren't like necessarily naked or. anything but sure just a large. collection of photos of him sleeping in. bed I saw them described as tender. photos sure so um yeah that that was. that's there's a lot of evidence that. they had a a marriage a. long like like decades long marriage out.

in the open and one of the things that. stands out to me is that everybody in. their society in their group in. Washington. Society accepted it at least to some. degree or another and other people. clearly didn't care at all and this is. at a time where like you could you could. fire employees for being gay because you. were worried they were going to get. blackmailed I think it's just. fascinating that that Duality where. politicians or other people have be like. yeah I know being gay is terrible Middle. America isn't it the worst where.

personally they're like there's nothing. wrong with gay people I have nothing. wrong with with gay people they just it. it just got dragged out because so many. people did have a problem with it and. ironically it wasn't the people calling. the shots it was the people who I guess. elect the people calling the shots yeah. absolutely um when Hoover died uh Nixon. named tulson the uh acting director of. the FBI uh he held that position for one. day uh and then retired uh was not in.

great health himself uh and another. little fun fact that's stuff you should. know related is that Tolson was part of. the FBI team that nabbed the Nazis that. invaded Florida awesome yeah great job. Tolson what else you. got uh well I mean if this is the end um. we promised at the beginning just a. little armchair uh diagnosis of his. mental Fitness uh this is this is not. something that people should do properly.

uh it's it's frowned upon to just sort. of uh diagnose someone after their death. but it was a time where he he um a lot. of this stuff people weren't seeking. help for given his family history with. his father's uh uh depression and mental. illness that ended his life um a lot of. uh legitimate you know um clinicians. have said that they fully believe that. Jed G Hoover um at the very least had a. narcissistic personality disorder uh.

with paranoia attached um and that that. could very well explain sort of how he. went about his career yeah I I saw at. the very least he was a. perfectionist that can be very is that a. disorder it's not a disorder but it. certainly can make you make some strange. decisions and and go in strange. directions that other people might. not good thing I'm not a perfectionist I. know so um what else you got I got. nothing else all right so Chuck uh we I.

mean there's so much stuff that has been. left like uncovered unsaid unread. unresearched so if anybody out there has. some great stories about Jer Hoover that. we didn't touch on we'd love to hear. them uh and in the meantime while you're. generating those emails it's time for. listener. mail all right uh explanation of gears. for Josh hey guys here's a possible way. to explain gears speed changes and gear. ratios okay let's have that may help.

with your comprehension uh even if you. don't understand the mechanical concept. that is driven divided by drive for. example your input gear which is the one. being driven by the windmill rotor for. instance okay has 500 teeth the gear on. the generator itself only has 50 teeth. okay so it's about 1/10 the size you. divide divide 500 by 50 you equal 10 so. that will make give you a 10 times.

increase in speed so for every one turn. of that windmill rotor the generator. turns 10. times I think I got it and if you want. to slow things down just put the gears. in the opposite Place 50 teeth on the. input gear 500 teeth on the output 50 /. 500 is 0.1 so that is uh a ratio of 1 to. 10 so for every 10 turns of the windmill. Blade the generator turns once okay I. think the diff I think I actually have.

this now I think in addition to it being. explained really well I had my eyes. closed and was visualizing it while you. were reading it so I think that was the. big breakthrough all right so that is. from Mike Lewis uh just want to shout. out Mike's company he's the owner of. iron. doctors uh if you are in Colorado. Springs and really they said they go. anywhere in Colorado and he didn't ask. he in fact said please you don't have to. uh plug my business um it was just a.

work email but I like to because iron. doctors Service uh industrial machinery. and construction vehicles anywhere in. Colorado well thanks a lot Mike I. appreciate it I truly understand gears. now way to go and if you want to be like. Mike then you can send us an email to. stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart.

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