Isn't It Ironic, Dontcha Think? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's [music] Chuck, and Jer. Bear's here, too. And this is Stuff You. Should Know. The irony edition. It's a little on the nose, isn't it? >> I think so. >> Oh, sorry. Uh let me try [music] again.

The. isn't it ironic, don't you think. edition. >> Yeah, well, I mean. if if you are our age or above. and maybe a few below. >> or a weird younger person. >> Yeah, you might have made fun of Alanis. Morissette for that whole thing, because. I remember at the time. like people dissing on that song, because they were like basically none of. what she mentions is ironic. >> No, rain on your wedding day? I mean, yes, it's not expected, but it can be,

you know, it's a pretty. it's very possible. It's just bad luck. in that situation. That's one good. example. >> Yeah, what else? >> Uh free ride when you're already there? Mhm. >> I don't even know what that means. >> No, basically nothing that she said was. technically ironic, but the fact that. Alanis Morissette. Canada's greatest hero felt um okay with. basically saying this is all irony and. ironic, so much so that I'm going to.

name my song ironic. >> Yeah. >> Um. that just kind of goes to show like how. wide open everyone's interpretation of. what irony is. is. >> Yeah, I mean, it's kind of notoriously. hard to define. Uh Livia helped us with. this, and she, you know, the other sort. of cultural example she gave initially. was. uh Reality Bites. And in that movie, it's like it's not a. plot point, but I mean, it's sort of not. a plot point, but at some point Winona. Ryder, you know, is asked to define.

irony and she really can't. >> Mhm. >> And then Ethan Hawke, who. you know, at the time was supposed to be. like this super cool guy, but you know, that movie, the way that movie has aged, like you look back and you're like, he. was kind of a big jerk in that movie. >> Yeah, I saw something about that that. Ben Stiller was actually the nice guy, but he was, you know, part of the. establishment where Ethan Hawke was not. >> Totally. >> nice, but he was like the cool dude, but. he was like the guy that she wanted, right? >> Yeah. That's the irony of the movie. But yeah,

Ethan Hawke, he kind of makes her feel. dumb by like defining irony really. plainly. Uh, what it's when the actual meaning is. the complete opposite of from the. literal meaning, which is. you know, at the time it seemed like, oh, how clever, but it's really not. Just to read some explicit definition of. one type of irony to prove you're smart. is. they missed the mark. In retrospect. >> Sure. And even still, like he's talking. about such a narrow definition of of um. irony that he might as well just kept. his darn mouth shut.

>> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, but that's kind of, like you said, the the whole point of this is a really. hard thing to define. Uh, I think Livia did a great job with a. tough topic. Uh, and like, you know, looking at it from a. historical perspective, I think helps. >> Yeah, I just wanted to jump in. I I was. silent cuz I didn't agree, but I want to. say Livia did a great job. with this. I think this was a bit of a. um. a vision quest, maybe,

for her. I don't know if that's the. right term, but it was very difficult. assignment. >> Yeah. You've been You've been throwing. out a lot of these very esoteric topics. lately. >> Yeah, I don't know why. I guess I don't. know why. I know you think it's cuz I. just turned 50, but I don't [laughter]. think that's it. >> I wasn't going to say that. >> Okay, well, at any rate, um yeah, this. is something um that I've wanted to do. for a while and some people have written. in and asked for it but I think one of. the reasons I wanted to tackle is. because I don't.

know exactly. what it is but also in the like myriad. ways that it's played like a really big. role in shaping society. In fact, there's this whole kind of schism. between the ironic and people who resent. the ironic. >> Yeah. >> as we'll see that dates back hundreds of. years. So, let's get into it Chuck cuz. irony is nothing new like this the 90s. Gen X slackers didn't invent it. >> No, not at all. The term itself comes.

from a character actually not really a. thing yet in classical Greek I guess. drama. The character was e i r o n. with a little rooftop over the o. >> A little little puff of smoke coming out. the chimney. >> Yeah, eiron I guess or iron. >> I'm going with iron. >> Well, I guess it would. be the second letter but that's German I. don't know about Greek but yeah, irony. Let's go with iron. >> Okay. >> But that means one who disassembles and.

that was like like I said that was a. character in a lot of Greek drama and. comedy and comedy writers would insert. that character to accomplish. like a dramatic or comedic goal and one. of the ways that they would do this they. would do it all in a lot of ways but one. of the ways was as sort of a. sort of like a. detective who would play dumb in order. to sort of uh. sniff sniff someone off the case and. reveal them as a fool. >> Right or a fraud or somebody who knows.

much less than they they like to think. that they do. >> Yeah. >> And it's. in a way it's you're setting them up to. make a fool of themselves. You call it. like um paying out the rope that. somebody's hanging themselves with. essentially is what they did. And I. guess Plato used to love this stuff. He. would take off his robe and like twirl. it over his head. He would get so. excited about using Socrates as an iron. And so Socrates is basically like. he would be really like smarmy, overly.

flattering essentially. Basically saying, "Please, you know so. much. Please teach me." And then he. would eventually disassemble them and. their entire identity. >> Yeah. Uh in Latin that word became ironia, i r. o n i a. And there was a a Roman orator in the. 1st century named Quintilian who said, "It's basically saying something. contrary to what you mean." which is. what Ethan Hawke would kind of intimate.

many years later. >> Mhm. >> Uh and the Europeans in the Middle Ages, they were like, "Yeah, that's that. Quintilian definition is the one that. we're going to use. uh as like a like an allegory on a. contradiction basically. >> Yeah, and it was basically a device of. speech. It wasn't like. >> [clears throat]. >> like. a whole book could be ironic. >> Yeah. >> Or a whole TV show could be ironic. In. part cuz there weren't TV shows back. then, but you get the point. >> It's like a one-liner. >> It was yeah, exactly. That's what irony.

was. And it was it was no broader than. that. It was a very nar- narrow. definition. um for hundreds of years until the. Renaissance came along. And um. they the Renaissance people were like, "Oh, okay. We really like this stuff.". They they I guess got back into Socratic. irony which was using people. um playing dumb essentially to show how. actually dumb someone else was. But they. also identified the irony of fate which. is far and away the greatest type of.

irony. It's also called situational. irony today. Um and that's the one where. instead of somebody making a one-liner. or Socrates playing dumb, this is like the universe does this to. you or life does this to you. Just. something happens that no one had any. control over, but is just indisputably. ironic. And that's that's to me that's. the money irony. >> Yeah, I think so, too, because it's a. recognition of a thing that happened. that wasn't like set up or.

contrived or written written it to be. clever or something like that. So, I'm. with you. >> Totally. And I think that that's a big. distinction as we'll see like being. clever and being. uh the hapless subject of of irony. I. think those that's a big distinction. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh the German Romantics. really got into it. Uh. again, they like most people had a lot. of trouble defining it. But they were. very into like um. they were into it in the sense of like, "Hey, this is how we can question.

conventional wisdom by throwing out uh. ironic viewpoints.". >> Yeah, and the way that they did it. So, I was looking into this because I didn't. It took me I'm like, "What are they. talking about?" Essentially, the. Romantics were the first post-modern. people. They were the first to basically say, "Hey, you know life? Have you ever. stopped and thought about life? Like are. there other ways life could go? Um what. are other things you can do with your. life?" And they were essentially like. the first to challenge conventional.

wisdom in the West as a group. And they. essentially became they they prized. irony because to them that was a way of. like thinking about things of like. turning things over in your mind. So, that's what the German Romantics were. into. And there were opponents to that. who were like, "No, this is you're going down a really. bad path here.". >> Yeah, one guy in particular uh. George Wil- Wilhelm Frederick Hegel. He.

was a German philosopher, but not a. Romantic. He was like, "I don't like any. of that stuff." And I think he it seems. like he kind of saw it as like a. um sort of a a smart-alecky way to go. through life. Like you're putting yourself above. someone else and you're not committing. to anything. Kind of like the like. hipster irony now maybe. >> Right, exactly. Yeah, kind of like, you. know, coming up on somebody that oh, you. love your life of milking cows, huh? I. guess that's all there is to life, huh?

>> Yeah, yeah. >> So, that was Hegel. Kierkegaard, who was. the Christian ethicist, um he he really. hated um irony as well. He called it. infinite absolute negativity. >> Yeah. >> And and so in the way that Hegel like. identified hipster. irony as being just annoying and kind of. looking down on people, >> Mhm. >> Kierkegaard kind of took that and and. multiplied it by all the people doing. this and found like you could actually. as a society lose your way.

and like lose meaning to life if you. examine stuff too much rather than just. living it. And so he he essentially. predicted the post-modern age, which. we're in right now, that loss of meaning. that happened because people started. thinking about the possibilities that. are out there not rather than just. actuality. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh as far as like. um. you know, as time marched on in the 19th. and 20th centuries, um it it became a big thing in like uh.

the literary world. >> Mhm. >> Uh there was a essay in 1833 from a. classical scholar uh an English scholar. named uh Connop Thirlwall, who he was into the irony of fate. meaning uh like you said, that's what we. call situ- situational irony now. >> Mhm. >> Uh but he was doing that through the. lens of like, you know, works of. literature basically and that's where we. get dramatic irony basically was from. him, which is the idea that the audience.

knows something that the characters. don't. And when that plays out, that's a. dramatic irony. >> Right. And he he retroactively applied. it to Oedipus Rex. >> Lots of irony there. >> There really is. There's a lot. So, there's some in that um So, uh. King Laius and Queen Jocasta give get. get rid of their baby because it's been. predicted that their baby's going to. grow up and kill his father. >> Mhm. >> So, they're like, "Well, let's get this. baby away from us." Well, by doing so,

their kid grew up without knowing who. his father and mother were. So, he he. actually grows up to slay King Laius. without realizing that this is his. father. So, it happened anyway. They. Maybe if they had brought him up uh and. not given him away, he wouldn't have. killed him. Um that was a pretty big. ironic twist in that whole uh play. >> Yeah. I think if Alanis Morissette had a. sung lines like that. It's like, "Oedipus.". >> That's right.

Killing his dad. Uh and then there's. more irony heaped up on on top of that, which is later on, of course, uh he didn't know that he had killed. Laius. So, he seeks vengeance against. his the king's murderer, who is himself. >> Right. And then there's also a a bit of. dramatic irony. The audience knows that. Oedipus is eventually going to claw his. own eyes out. And at one point, he mocks. a blind man for being blind, which is. just. cruel, no matter when you're you're.

speaking. >> I'm sure the audience was like, "Ooh.". >> Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. I mean, like, there's a lot of irony. And here's this. is the thing. So, what was the guy's. name again? I I know it's made up, but. um. Connop Thirlwall. >> Thirlwall, yeah. >> no way that's real. >> The first name is weird. >> So, Mr. Thirlwall basically. shows like, "Here's irony. Here's irony, too. Here's irony." But if if you pinned. him or anybody else down and say, "Great, can you make a universal.

definition for irony?" I'm sure he would. have thrown his hands up. And that's. just it. I think um. uh. Winona Ryder even says in Reality Bites, like I I can tell when I see it. I I. know it, but you can't really come up. with a good universal definition for it, but you can go back and be like, "That's. ironic. That's ironic." It's almost like. humans have a um innate like sense of. irony. >> Yeah, and it is funny now that I think. about it that is so ironic that Ben.

Stiller was the good guy. >> Mhm. >> Cuz he was genuinely like a really nice. guy and treated her very well in that. movie. Uh. but she he yeah, he was part of he was. part of the establishment, so he wasn't. cool. >> Right. >> And Ethan Hawke, like what's what's he. doing? Not Ethan Hawke, but what would. that character be doing now? >> I don't know. I mean, I I hesitate to. say, but I'm sure, you know, he would. probably. >> still [laughter] be here. I He would be. very much in love with his own. you know, mind or intellect, I'm sure.

>> So, he'd have a podcast. >> Yeah. [laughter]. I think you nailed it actually. >> All right, let's take a break and we'll. come back and talk about irony a little. more. >> [music].

>> All right. So, we've defined or at least. talked about a couple of different types. of irony, but here comes some more. everybody. Um verbal irony. this is gets a little dicey because. verbal irony and sarcasm are. uh like sarcasm is a is sort of a way of. being ironic, but to me it's different. because there's a a smarminess to it. >> Yeah. >> They're lumped together a lot. Uh, like.

sarcasm and irony. So, if you know, if. you were to say, like if it's really. raining outside and the weather's really. bad and you're like, "Yeah, nice. weather." Like, that that is irony. It's. got a little smarm, but not as smarmy as. like. "Oh, that speech you gave was so great.". >> Right. >> You know, to a bad speech. Like that is. super sarcastic and smarmy. >> Yeah, I think um you said one of us said. that irony is based on one who. disassembles, sarcasm is um to tear.

flesh. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that really kind of goes. to show you. Like they're they both do. something similar, but one's way more. vicious than the other. Yeah, sarcasm is. pretty lame. It's just a I think it's a. it's meant to be a phase in the. development of a person's sense of. humor. It's supposed to come early on. And be abandoned eventually, but some. people don't abandon it and they love. Deadpool. >> Yeah, I I try not to be. Oh, I'll take that back. I'm I don't try.

to not be sarcastic. I think. uh, I think it just sort of fades away. I'm sure I am sarcastic sometimes, but I. don't know. It's not the greatest look. once you're a certain age. >> I can't think of any of you being. sarcastic. >> Oh, you can't? >> Oh. No, I can't. >> You're not very sarcastic either, I. don't think. Unless you're just trying. to get a like get a laugh or something. >> Sure. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely my. humor's fairly ironic, but I like to. think it's not at the expense of.

>> No. >> anybody. And usually it's a if it's at. the expense of somebody, it's at the. expense of myself. Like. >> Yeah, self-deprecating. >> Yeah, that's another way to put it. Sure. That's how Ethan Hawke's character. would put it. >> Uh, here's a word that I never knew, but. I knew it was a thing. I've never heard. of litotes before. >> Me, either. >> But, that's a word. That is like uh. verbal like understated verbal irony. Like, if someone asked you if. um. if you if you'd like something or not. that you really really hate and you say. like, "Mhm, not the biggest fan of.

that.". That is called a litotes. >> I'm so glad you're the one who said that. cuz that's not how I was going to. pronounce that word. You going to say. litotes? >> Mhm. >> Well, I looked it up cuz uh I I get I'm. frankly tired of being made fun of in. listener mail. >> You're a professional. >> I'm getting there. >> I I'm just uh. Well, I'm just a lump. Um so, yeah. That's it it has to negate. what the like um. I I don't know any better way to put it.

Like, yeah, I'm not a big fan meaning. you really don't like something. So, you. it's an understatement, but at the same. time you're negating the fan part. I. don't fully understand it in the in the. sense that like if you think about. something too hard, like economics, >> Right. Yeah, yeah. >> you can suddenly like lose it and not. not understand it anymore. Um that's that's kind of how that is. with me. >> Yeah. Just breeze right on by the. litotes. >> Exactly. Let's talk situational irony cuz this is.

the whole reason for this episode, man. Like, there's nothing more delightful to. me than a really good ironic twist. >> Yeah, and I I I I feel like this can be. played in Well, I mean, it happens in. real life, of course, but can be played. in in. you know, literature and movies and TV. and stuff like that is like a uh. uh is like a comeuppance sometimes. Like, sometimes it can be very sad when. situ- situational irony strikes, but. sometimes it's like somebody gets what. they deserved in an ironic way.

>> For sure. And then, sometimes it's just. like uh impressive. Other times, most of the time, if not always, there's a black comedic. sense to it. Or if you look at it deeply. enough, there is something funny about. it. Even if it is sad, even if it is. tragic, if it's still ironic, there's. something. There's something more to it. There's. something more valuable to it than just. what it is on its surface. Like a. lifeguard drowning. Right?

Like that's sad. Of course. Like if you. put yourself in the If you know the. person's name, you know the situation of. their death, like they were trying to. save someone and they drowned, they had. like this life ahead of them, they left. a child behind, you know, as a survivor. Once you know that stuff, it's it's not. funny at all. But if you just step back. and you say, "A lifeguard drowned.". There's something just in that irony, there's something blackly comedic about. it. There's something funny about it. I.

I I think everything has something funny. about it. >> Yeah, I mean, I laughed instinctively. the second you said a lifeguard drowned. cuz I didn't know I didn't know it was. coming. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> It just made me laugh. There's nothing. funny about anyone dying, but. since that didn't really happen and you. just said it, it was funny. >> But even so, it's not like you're. celebrating that person's death by. laughing, or you don't care that that. person died. This is something. different. It's separate. It's It's It's. larger than that person's individual.

death in that sense. But it's tied. directly to it. >> Yeah, I saw a comedian the other day. I. can't remember her name. Uh what was it? But she was talking. about like her worst death would be to. be like the only person that died in a. plane crash. >> Yeah. >> And I couldn't figure out where she was. going. I was like, I sort of get it, but. I don't fully get it. And then she was. explaining like, when you see the news. reports, you know, there was a plane. crash, and everyone's horrified, and. then it's like one person dies, and. everyone's like, "Oh, well, that wasn't.

that bad.". >> [laughter]. >> You're just the one person. >> Oh, man, you need to introduce me to. that friend. >> Uh it's not a friend, it was a comedian. >> Oh, well, make friends with them and. then introduce [laughter] me. >> All right, maybe someone will write in. Or maybe she will, you never know. >> There's uh there's some others, too. Um. like a fire station burning down. >> Mm, so funny. >> Especially [laughter] especially if no. one got hurt. Well, that's what I'm. saying. There's like I you might not. think it's funny. I don't even think. it's particularly funny. It's ironic, but I get it. Key, there's somebody out.

there who finds that funny. That's the. thing. It's not always funny to everyone. all the time. The it could just be one. person. I my theory is that everything. is funny at least to one person. >> No, I totally agree. Uh and I I think. what's getting me here with the the uh. this kind of irony being played. uh when. I think there's a sometimes karma. attached to it. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? >> Mhm. Yeah, like that lifeguard hit a drifter.

with his car and drove off. >> Well, which kind of plays into the next. one, which is cosmic irony, which is a. little bit like karmic irony in that. it's situational irony where, you know, the gods or whatever fate caused. something. >> Yeah, um that's essentially the same. thing, if you ask me. A lifeguard. drowning or something. Um George Carlin, did you see his example? >> No. >> Oh, um I sent it to you. George Carlin,

he basically did a bit where he explains. the difference between what's ironic and. what's actually not ironic. May I? >> Yeah, you sent this to me? >> Mhm. Yeah. Um I did. He basically said this. He said that if you are a uh let's say. you there's a diabetic and he's on his. way to buying insulin and he gets hit by. a delivery truck. If the deliv- Yeah, see? If the delivery. truck was carrying sugar, that would be like poetic and pretty.

funny, but just bad luck really. according to George Carlin. Sure. He. said if the delivery truck was carrying. insulin, now you're now you've got. irony. I think both of those things are. ironic. Whether it's sugar or insulin, but that. was his his distinction. >> That's good. Well, we've already talked. about dramatic irony. That's the next. one on the list, and that's again when. the audience knows something that the. characters don't. And Hitchcock had a. very famous example of like let's see a.

scene. with a couple of characters in a. restaurant diner. just talking about whatever and a bomb. goes off under the table. If the. audience doesn't know that's happening, it's some great tragedy or shock. If you. do know, I mean it still might be a. tragedy, but it's not a shock. If the. audience knows. that that bomb is under there and all of. a sudden that adds this real dramatic. tension to what's happening. >> Yeah, or like the the audience knowing. Oedipus will tear his eyes out. They're.

just kind of laughing at him, laughing. at the blind guy, right? >> Right, like you got to come in your way, buddy. >> There's another one I didn't. ever hear this term for it. I've always. heard it as breaking the fourth wall. But that is actually called romantic. irony, and it's where the author, the. narrator I guess probably even the. character. basically breaks out of the the realm of. fiction and starts addressing you, the. reader or the viewer. That's romantic. irony. The reason I think it's called.

romantic based on the German romantics. and their love of irony. That in its. purest form, the author is basically. stopping the narrative to talk to you, the reader, and say, "Look at how this. guy's, you know, ideals and hopes and. dreams are so far off from reality.". >> Right. I take it as like them spelling. things out for the reader, I guess. >> Yeah, and like you know, for the sake of. comedy. like it made me think of like. Albert Brooks in Broadcast News.

>> I don't remember that. >> You don't remember. seeing that or you never saw that? Or. you don't remember that part when you. >> Is it the one where. I'm mad as heck and I'm not going to. take it anymore? >> No, that's Network. Broadcast News was. >> I've never seen it then. >> was a. uh. James L. Brooks romantic comedy. One one of the great movies. By the way. >> to see it then. >> Especially if you like Albert Brooks. >> I do. I love him. I think he's a. international treasure. >> That's right. He was obviously born. Albert Einstein.

Fun fact. >> What? >> That was his name. >> Really? >> the two fun facts about Albert Brooks is. he was Albert Einstein and changed his. name. And the other is that he was. brothers with. Super Dave Osborne. >> Wow. >> And uh. The Outsiders was written by a teenage. girl. >> [laughter]. >> Name is S. E. Hinton. >> It's the fact of every podcast now. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Thank you for that, Chuck. >> Yeah, see Broadcast News. It's great.

Like one of the great movies. >> Have you ever seen Network? >> Oh, yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, I liked it, too. >> I didn't say I liked it. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. >> No, I loved it. >> Um okay. So, getting back to irony. Um you know, one thing also, I'm proud. of us for not being like, was that. ironic? Were you being ironic? We're not. doing that and that would have been. really annoying. So, kudos to us, if you. ask me. Maybe we'll edit that out.

>> I was just thinking in my head how funny. it would be if I was just about to say. that. And like the words were sitting in. my mouth. That's why I was being silent. No, I just was thinking that would be. funny. Back to iron specifically though, right? >> Uh yeah. The Socratic irony is what it's. also called or philosophical irony. where, you know, again, you're you're. playing I think dumb is usually the the. way that um it's most often described or. presented, but it can be other things. like uh I think um.

Randle P. McMurphy, Jack Nicholson's. character from One Flew Over the. Cuckoo's Nest, is considered uh. philosophically ironic by being a sane. person in a mental hospital, and in doing so, he shows like just the. unjustness of life in that mental. hospital. Um seems a little I don't know. if off is the right term, but that's. that Like here is where it's like, "Okay, maybe we need to come up with. other terms for stuff like this and stop.

using ironic like that.". >> Yeah, I thought that's where like when. we get into talking about satire and. parody, like they always use irony. So, I guess it's just sort of like a a. subgenre or or maybe, you know, not a. subgenre, but its own thing where irony. comes into play. >> Sure. Well, let's talk satire. I have a. um a pet theory that satire is actually. super harmful for society. >> Oh, interesting. I love satire.

>> It it can take um. I like parody, but satire I feel like it. can take the actual like. anger and discontent. and just. release it. As it's a it acts as a. pressure valve for society. Oh, okay, we'll just laugh all this off, and then. the status quo can continue on. And I. think it actually is harmful to society, um the better and more widespread the. satire is. The less change will actually.

come along. Like society has to go. through really rough periods where it's. really upset to effect real change, and. satire kind of prevents that from. happening. >> I guess that's a kind of satire cuz. there's so much comedic satire that you. love. in your life, you know? >> Okay, I'll go with like Spinal Tap. >> Okay, I mean The Simpsons is a satire. >> Is it? >> Yeah. Don't you think? >> I don't know. Is it Are you saying is it.

ironic do I think? >> No, no, no. I mean we agreed to not do. that. I mean I mean really I it is I. think it's a satire, isn't it? >> I I don't know, man. >> I think it's a satire of like American. life and family and stuff. >> Yeah, I mean I I can definitely see. that. I like I definitely see where. you're coming from. I I don't know. I. always kind of. associate satire almost exclusively with. like having a really important message, um which is why to me it it takes that.

important message and kind of. um uses it to deflate any true feelings. about it. >> Oh, interesting. Okay, like social. satire. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, all right. >> Yeah, like I get where it's coming from, too, where it's saying like, "Hey, we. need to let more people know about. this." A good example is um. oh, uh who was it? I think it was Jonathan Swift, the. pamphleteer or essayist, I think. He um. came up with a modest proposal in 1729,

and he'd written a bunch of essays about. how the Irish were starving and how they. needed help, and he just got crickets in. return. And then he wrote a modest. proposal, and in it he basically talks. about how the Irish just need to eat. their babies, and that will solve the. hunger issue and a lot of other. problems, too. Then he got, you know, all sorts of attention for that. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Of course he got attention for it. It's. It's nuts. In some ways it's funny. In. some ways it's just abhorrent, and it's. very attention-getting. But how much.

change did it actually affect? I don't. know enough about 18th century Irish. history to tell you how much change it. affected, but based on my. uh understanding of satire over the. years, especially socio-political. satire, it probably didn't actually have. that much effect aside from making more. people aware of it, but does that. actually make things change? That's my. question. >> Yeah, that's a good question. >> Thanks. >> think the proponents of satire would say. like.

just getting the conversation around it. going is the point and the change comes. because of those conversations, but I'm. not I'm not taking a stance either way. I see your point. >> Fair enough. And at the same time, one. last thing. I my my position isn't that. we all just need to put up with the. status quo. >> Oh, sure. >> That's That's what I'm saying. Like. satire. inadvertently can make the status quo. continue on when it shouldn't. >> Yeah, you're talking about getting some. bricks and baseball bats. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> And really doing something.

>> That's right. Taking it to the streets as Michael. McDonald said. >> Uh. >> [laughter]. >> Camp is another sort of irony and that's. a little more of the um. I hate I mean I love camp, so I hate to. lump it in with the hipster irony, but. that's kind of what they're talking. about. Like an ironic appreciation of. something. Like if if something is. campy, that's kind of what you're. talking about in you know, in a lot of. cases. >> Right. >> Uh yeah. >> John um John Speaking of The Simpsons,

John Waters was on The Simpsons once. >> Oh, yeah. I remember that one. >> He gave uh he gave a throwaway. a definition of camp. He said, "The. tragically ludicrous, the ludicrously. tragic.". And then. Homer said, "Oh, yeah. Like when a clown. dies.". >> [laughter]. >> And John Waters goes, "Well, sort of.". >> That's funny. >> Yeah. >> All right. I think that's a good time. for a break. And we'll be right back right after. this.

>> [music]. [music]. >> Okay Chuck, so. I think I said like I feel like humans. have like a. hardwired intuition for noticing irony.

for being able to pick it out and it's. been used as a device for a really long. time. so much so that it's been found that. verbal irony saying. the opposite of what you mean. is basically universal. which is great and kindergarten children. have been shown to be able to pick up on. verbal irony like at that young of an. age. What's kindergarten age these days. like five?

>> Yeah, like five or six I think. >> Not bad. >> Yeah, agreed. I love the example Livia. uses too. She's like every society comes up with. ideas like nicknaming a big guy tiny. >> Right. >> But I love that. I mean that is sort of. a universal thing. Like I love the idea that in any culture. if you. had a like a a very large person. and their nickname was whatever that. word is in their language for like small. or tiny like everyone gets that joke. >> Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it is universal.

and it's been used as a device long. before anybody identified it what irony. was. Like remember Oedipus Rex was. written long before irony even though it. was dripping with irony. So that in and. of itself kind of shows that it's. definitely been a part of of human. communication and I guess human. understanding of the world for. from time immemorial. >> Yeah, for sure. She gives a lot of. examples. One of my favorites here is.

Uh, and I think we've talked about the. Zhuangzi before. The. Daoist text. And this was in like 4th. century BCE. So, it was a very long time. ago. And there was a story about a tree. that was so twisted and gnarly that it. couldn't be used for lumber. Uh, so it was useless. And because it. was so useless, it lived a very long. life as a tree, which is like. that that was the tree's purpose and. use, you know, right there. >> Mhm. I think that disproves my everything is. funny in some way theory, though. >> Well, that that's the Zhuangzi from 4th.

century BCE. Not not a noted comedic. tome. >> Uh, there's trickster stories also um. are always dripping with irony and they. are super duper old. Um Tom So- well, way older than Tom Sawyer, but the one. that always comes to mind for me is uh. Tom Sawyer using reverse psychology to. trick his friends into taking over. painting the fence for him because he. talks about how much fun it is and he. doesn't want to share. So, now all of a. sudden they all want to paint. So, he.

just gets to sit back and kind of laugh. at them. Uh, that is. it really old archetype. I think Joseph. Campbell even talked about that whole. mythology series, which I've not seen. Have you? >> Uh, no. >> Well, we have to watch it together. >> He knew a thing or two about archetypes. >> He did. He was He was a archetype type. >> Archetypist? Uh, Don Quixote, you know, is of course is um maybe the first. modern novel. There was There's a lot of.

irony in that. The the biggest one is just that Quixote. himself is a very elevated sort of ideas. about his adventures and the reader. knows the whole time uh, like this guy. has got that kind of thing. So, that's. that's also sort of dripping with irony. >> Yeah, um my favorite ironist of all time. is O. Henry. He was. >> Yeah. >> well known as the master of like the. ironic twist, like the gift of the Magi. >> Doesn't get any better than that, you.

know. >> Yeah, I mean that's just the one that. everyone's read. Like every one of his. stories has an ironic twist to it. >> Oh, yeah. >> And you know it's coming and he's so. good at it you very rarely can see. what's coming, but it's never, you know, quickly assembled at the end out of. whatever parts are at hand. Like it's. it's the point of the story all the way. along. He's he was just a master of it. And then another one that always stands. out to me is The Monkey's Paw. Um. >> Yeah. >> Do you remember Do you you remember that.

one? >> Uh I remember a little bit about it. I. remember being scary like the monkey's. paw moves in your hand or something. Yeah. >> Yeah, granted wishes but those wishes. always came with an ironic consequence. like. >> Right. >> the the father wishes for 100 lb. sterling and he gets it but it's as. compensation because his son died at a. factory. So. >> Right. >> Like all of the all of the wishes, the. way that they're granted are in ironic. twists that don't pan out very well for. the family involved.

>> Yeah, and sometimes that's funny but a. lot of times it's tragic. Like I don't know if The Gift of the. Magi was supposed to be funny. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, good point. >> You know, but uh yeah, lot lots of. ironic twists. Yeah, I guess he was the. M. Night Shyamalan of the. literary world. >> That's right. >> There is something to that though. If. you're known for something like when you. go see the M. Night movies, you're just. waiting for it, you know. >> Yeah, but he's like O. Henry. Like you. don't really see it coming. >> Uh you know, sometimes. Some are better.

than others. >> I will watch every single one of that. guy's movies. I love them. >> Yeah, I mean they're entertaining. Did. you Did you finally see the one at the. the concert, The Popstar? >> I did. That was his daughter who. directed it, right? >> No, no, no, he directed it. She. She was in it. >> Oh, she was the popstar? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, it was it was entertaining. It and it went just totally nuts at the. end, didn't it? >> Yeah, I mean I thought it was a very fun. Batman movie. >> Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't say all of his movies.

are bad movies, but he has made some bad. movies, but yes, agreed, they're all. fun. >> Yeah, I didn't see the last one. uh Old or whatever. Is it called Old? >> It's good. >> Yeah. >> I mean it's a M. Night Shyamalan movie. It's a little. uh like a bottle episode. It's a little. >> It all takes place on this beach almost. entirely. >> Yeah. >> Takes place on this beach and that gets. a little old as it were, but um you. know, it still moves along pretty. quickly. >> Yeah, and I remember early in his career. when it was like he was the twist guy.

and uh seeing and there's some spoilers. coming everyone if you haven't seen. these very old movies. >> Okay. >> But uh when was it The Village? Uh. yeah, that's what it was called. Like I. remember seeing that movie and the whole. time I'm like this is. so like going to be revealed that it's. modern times. So like I was just waiting. on it. >> I had I was totally Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm just like. super dupable because I had no idea that. was coming. I knew that the Sixth the.

the twist to The Sixth Sense because. some jackass told me before I went into. it, which is mean. And then uh all the other ones I'm like, "What?" every time, which I love. >> you? Did he say, "Hey, have you seen. that new movie where Bruce Willis is. dead the whole time?". >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Uh I don't think that makes you dupable. I think that means you're like into it. and and like can park park that stuff. That's a good trait. >> Okay. As long as it's not out on the dance. floor.

>> Right. >> [laughter]. >> No parking on the dance floor. >> Mhm. What else, Chuck? >> Uh. well, I mean we can keep going through. literary examples. Well, I mean we. should probably definitely mention. Catch-22 cuz we'll get emails if we. don't because that's sort of. uh. well, it's a satire, of course. Uh so, you hate it. But, it's built on it's. built on irony. Uh the whole title is an. ironic paradox in that the Catch-22 of. the film is that anyone who wants to fly. in one of the in like a combat mission.

as a pilot in war uh should be removed. for mental health reasons. But, if you. try to get out of it by saying like, "I'm a Section 8 or whatever." then. you're obviously sane for doing so. >> So, you have to fly. That's who should. be flying, yeah. It's a great great. ironic paradox of all time. And so, I I Okay, I figured out um why I. dislike satire cuz it hits you over the. head with like, "This is a problem. This. is wrong.".

Of course it is. Like, I think that's. what I don't like about it. I already. know that there's a problem with that. I. already know there's something wrong. with it. I I guess I've never seen. satire that I didn't already agree was a. problem. So, therefore, there's never. any satire that really changed my mind. about something. >> Oh, yeah, yeah. I get you I get what. you're saying. >> Yeah. Sometimes I just have to reflect. on something for 10 15 minutes, and then. I come to the basis of it. >> Then you got it. >> Uh something that I missed that I don't. know if you noticed, too, but um in. Fight Club,

apparently, it was meant to be ironic in. that like these guys were rebelling. against society and like a conformist. society, and then in doing so, they. ended up creating their own fascist. society of their own, you know, club. >> Yeah, it's super conformist. >> Sure. So, did you recognize that that. was basically the theme of the movie? >> I don't you know, when I saw that movie, I was in my 20s, and so I think I was. just more like. I think I just more like like the movie.

at face value and was like, "Oh my god.". Here we go with spoilers again. Like, "Oh my god, there was no Tyler Durden. the whole time." Like it it's just kind. of like I thought it was a cool twist. >> Yeah. >> But, yeah, like being older now and. looking back. it's like, yeah, these dopes. wanted to, you know, they're doing the. very thing that they said they were, you. know, were fighting against. >> Right. Yeah, I I was totally lost on me, too. I was too busy going like, maybe I. should wear like floor-length fur coats. and no shirt underneath. [laughter].

It's a good look. So, I guess we can kind of get to that. last point like whether or not irony is. not a good thing. And I think overall. if if I'm tossing out my two cents, which I've basically tossed out $50. already so far. >> Yeah. >> Um. I think cosmic and situational irony is. great and there's nothing we can do. about it but appreciate it. And then on the other hand, belabored.

human-created. irony, if done well, then it's great. But, most of the time. it's not done very well. >> Yeah, I mean, David Foster Wallace, uh. you know, the great writer and essayist. uh wrote that irony and ridicule were. agents of a great despair and stasis in. US culture. And that like in the '50s and '60s uh. irony had a like great use in uh. breaking down the hypocrisy of the. establishment. >> Mhm. >> Um but since then uh it it has sort of I.

think he felt like it was overused in. the literary world. >> Yeah. >> And that that uh sincerity had kind of. been abandoned. >> Yeah, and that even if you were being. sincere, the reader wouldn't recognize. it because they were so primed to to. read things as ironic, right? So, he had. a really good point. Like, the like Gen. X really hammered the ironic thing home. and part of it was elevating yourself. above other people who just kind of. accepted things as they were and.

couldn't see the reality of something, right? Um and there was is backlash to. that, what was called the the death of. irony, which lasted about. 10 years. Because. um. where people like Dave Eggers came along. and were like, "No, I'm earnest. Every. I'm I really am just going to share. everything. I'm going to wear my heart. on my sleeve, and you're going to suck. it all down whether you like it or not.". And um it came across as smarmy to a lot. of people. Uh a lot of people considered. Dave Eggers' work as very smarmy, where.

it's. forced earnestness or forced sincerity, and it clubs you over the head with it. And there's actually a Gen Z term now. for that little period through, you. know, the early 2010s. uh where that that kind of smarminess. was um. uh very popular, I guess, especially in. literature. >> Yeah, is that millennial cringe? >> [laughter]. >> That's a zinger.

>> That is a zinger. Uh. yeah, I mean, it it it Again, back to. the generational look at things. I'm I'm. a big fan of Eggers, by the way. I just. want to say that out loud. >> Okay, great. >> Uh I haven't read the most stuff, but. I've read a couple of his books, and I. like them both. >> I I was uh I liked McSweeney's humor a. lot for a while. >> Yeah, for sure. And he does great work. through uh his charity, uh 826 Valencia. and 826 National. I I did a thing. recently for them. I read a. um I read like a passage from a book.

that a kid wrote. >> No. >> Uh through his charity, and uh it was it. was cool. >> They do good work. >> Yeah. >> Was it any good? >> Yeah, it was good. >> Okay, good. Cuz they don't publish bad kids' books. >> That's right. Uh yeah, but back to. millennial cringe, that's what Gen Z is. about, right? >> Yeah, and we should kind of wrap it up. with Gen Z because they have a they've. come up with their own version of irony. Um they're pretty preoccupied with it, too, but they've taken it to such a. degree that it's become absurdism rather.

than irony. Whereas irony is very very. well defined. It either is or it isn't. ironic, whatever the thing is. Gen Z. just mashes all sorts of stuff up and. you can't tell. whether they're supposed to be ironic or. not by the end of it. >> Mhm, maybe that's their aim. Confuse the. olds. >> Yeah, and they do a good job of it. There's it's called meta irony where. if you're an outsider looking in, especially if you're not in the Gen Z.

age group, so you're not tapped into. what's going on, we we have a tendency to really kind of. read into stuff and try to find the. answer to whatever the thing is or. understand it. >> Yeah. >> And if you do that with like Gen Z meta. ironic stuff or memes or whatever, it's. that there's that that be madness. There'd be madness. [laughter]. >> There'd be mad That'd be madness. I like. that better. >> Thanks. Yeah, I feel like I've been. hanging on by my fingernails this whole. episode and I hate those. >> Well, I mean this is a tough one. Again,

it's hard to define irony and it's hard. to talk 45 minutes about it. >> Which is why we talked 48 minutes about. it. >> Good point. >> Uh you got anything else? >> I have nothing else. >> All right, well that's it for irony. everybody and that means it's time for. listener mail. >> Uh hey guys, love the podcast, look. forward to new episodes. I wanted to. mention a couple of clarifications. The. first one. from the White Boy Rick episode uh was a. pron- pronunciation of his last name. Uh. it's pronounced Wershe.

as in Hershey. I don't remember what we. said. >> I don't either. >> Okay. It's Wershe. Uh the second was Josh kept saying the. phrase East Detroit. Uh White Boy Rick, the Curry brothers, etc. were based out. of the east side of Detroit. at the time of their prominence [music]. in the drug trade. We mentioned this. because there was a city just north of. Detroit called East Detroit. Uh they're. not the same place. In fact, the city of. East Detroit even voted to change their. name to East Point due to confusion and.

negative connotations about the east. side of Detroit. >> Wow. [music]. >> Uh keep up the great work. We could. heard from a couple of people, but that. is from Mike in East [music] Point, Michigan. >> Nice. Thanks a lot, Mike. We appreciate. that. Um of course there was a East. Detroit. >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. Well, it's like East Atlanta is an. actual. neighborhood in Atlanta, which is east. of Atlanta, but it's still not the same. as saying the east side of Atlanta. >> [music]. >> No. And I think there's an East Point. around Atlanta, too, right?

Or am I thinking of Athens? >> No, no, no. There's an East Point. But I. believe East Point is south. Isn't that down near the airport? >> I don't know. I have blood trickling out. of my ears. >> [laughter]. >> All right, let's just wrap it up. >> Okay. Well, who was that from? >> That's from Mike. >> All right, Mike. Thank you very much for. that email. We appreciate it. And if you. want to be like Mike and send us. well, an email, address it to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. [music].

>> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. >> [music]. >> For more podcasts my heart radio, visit. the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or. wherever you listen to your favorite. [music] shows.