Inner Dialogues, Monologues and Stone Cold Silence | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is stuff you should know uh. where the inner voice is in your head it. turns out do a good job Chuck do a good. job you got this you got this so what. you're engaged in Chuck is called. private speech oh [ __ ] you're so stupid.

that's priv. job as long as we can hear you and. you're talking to yourself that's speak. I get it now sure I was saying it out. loud which means it's not in monologue. or dialogue no I've always heard it. called the inner monologue too or. internal monologue but um Anna helped us. out with this right yeah Anna G um she. points out that inner monologue is a. pretty limiting.

uh term because that voice in your head. the way that you talk to yourself um it. can take all sorts of different shapes. rather than you having a conversation. beating yourself up uh quietly those are. kind of the keys to what we would call. Inner speech or the people who research. it would call it inner speech yeah or. inner voice and it turns out this is. kind of a tough one in some ways because. it's. like uh I imagine Anna was up against it. cuz there are many many many many facets.

to this uh and it can serve a lot of. different purposes it's very common but. also some people don't have it yeah um. we can look at brain scans and say like. hey this is lighting up um but it's like. it's also really hard to study and get a. consensus on because a lot of it is. self-reported as far as when people do. it and why people do it and what. function it could serve or doesn't serve. and if you if you don't have one what.

does that mean so uh there's just a lot. of different Avenues and it's tough to. kind of make this a real tidy package. yeah and it's really um impressive that. people are figuring out how to research. this at all uh it's a definitely. developing field it's not established. quite yet so it's kind of the Wild West. in a lot of ways as far as you know. psychology goes but um one of the. reasons why it's fairly new is because. people forever just thought like there. are such things as inner voices will.

never be able to study them because they. are the definition of subjective and. like you said self-reported tests are. how they had studied him before and. that's just not super reliable um. William James the father of American. psychology had a quote I'll paraphrase. him he basically said like trying to. study something like inner speech is. like um turning up the lights to get a. good look at what the dark looks like. you can't do it was the end of his. speech.

yeah oh boy that makes a lot of sense it. does I've heard another one too that I. love um studying Consciousness is like. trying to use a flashlight to find the. the Shadows oh I got one too okay youth. is wasted on the young oh that's a good. one that's a good one too uh what was. Spuds McKenzie party animal two words. that's all you need to know yeah this is. just a tough one cuz there are so many. little nuggets to uncover like after I. had done all the research and I was kind.

of like all right let's go do this I was. like wait wait a minute though like uh. when my grandfather had a stroke when I. was a kid he had uh Aphasia which is. some stroke patients you know can't you. know they're talking but they're not. saying the words that you understand. right I was like I wonder what's going. on in their head and what that has to do. with your inner voice and I saw some. things that said like nope you're or it. completely disturbs your inner voice as. well and then in other studies it said. um no your inner speech can be preserved.

uh relative to the spoken language if. you have AP fasia so it's just it can be. frustrating but it's also I shouldn't. look at it that way and just think of it. as like just super fascinating and maybe. you know we don't always have all the. answers yeah that's a great way to put I. think another way to say it is we don't. understand it so those listening to this. episode aren't going to understand it by. the end of it either well yeah and just. in the case of the stroke thing with my. grandfather I remember very specifically. being a kid and seeing the frustration. and thinking as a 10-year-old like he in.

his head he's saying what he's trying to. say right like I can tell because he's. getting really frustrated that is coming. out as something that is unintelligible. to us but um you know all these years. later I got two answers yeah there you. go full circle I guess in that sense yes. not a very satisfying one but yeah so um. so like we said inner monologue is a. little too limiting we don't want to use. that inner speech is way better and. inner speech is actually a little.

limiting as we'll see too but it turns. out there's a lot of things that our. inner speech does besides like you. demonstrated um beating yourself up uh. it it can be used to motivate that's a. good one you kind of did that at first. right yeah I think that was that was. good Chuck right um we uh we use it for. um memorizing things uh problem solving. we use it to regulate ourselves like. okay Chuck don't don't be to yourself.

calm down yeah that kind of stuff but. again not out loud and then even more. not me saying it because dude if your. voice in your head was my voice oh man I. would be so sorry for you I dream as you. is that weird it's a little weird I'd. like to hear more about that though. later on no I'm just joking uh there. have been plenty of people that have uh. studied this though and um you know. we're going to talk about some of these. people here and there there was a a pair.

of researchers in 2011 Simon McCarthy. Jones and Charles ferow maybe fer ho is. what I saw or what I heard yeah like. Tallyho exactly but Fernie right uh they. developed a survey and U where they kind. of categorized different varieties of. inner speech and their survey was called. the visk the varieties of inner speech. questionnaire. BQ uh and they also along with others. have other categories we're kind of just.

going to go through these now but um one. can be dialogic which means you're like. you're having a back and forth with. yourself um or uh others um I asked. Emily if I could talk about this because. she talks out loud um which I guess. isn't quite the same thing but she'll. I'll see her talking to herself. sometimes having a conversation with. someone uh much more common when she was. having frustrations with her business. talking like out loud to people uh but.

it would be in her head but then I would. also see her talking out loud and I I'll. walk into her room and say who are you. talking to and she'd tell me and uh but. that's dialogic because there's some. someone else involved even if that uh. someone else is another you right what. you can't see is the giant furry purple. monster with googly eyes and a tiki. drink oh man that'd be great um so yeah. dialogic seems to be fairly fairly um. common too yeah um there's also Den. interner speech um that's a it's kind of.

like a different form. of so this okay here's one of the things. that I had trouble with Chuck let me. just be forthright here these there's. not any neat package of there's this. kind this kind and this kind and then. there's the sub kind of this kind and. this kind and this kind no one's put it. together like that so it's a little. confusing so for example dialogic inter. speech you'd think that the next thing. would be monologic or something like. that that's not here instead we're.

talking about condensed inner speech. which is using like abbreviations or. right like just words rather than full. sentences um and that this is a way that. you speak to yourself in a very private. manner that you would probably never use. to speak out loud it's just the the the. kind of short hand that you use for. yourself doesn't fit this list at all. and yet here we are yeah Anna's example. for that is you know you're leaving the. house and you know phone Keys wallet and. head that kind of thing right but at the.

same time you could be having a. conversation with somebody about phone. key wallet so it would be dialogic. condensed dinner speech drives me nuts. yeah I see your point uh other people is. another one um that's when your voice. not when you're speaking to someone else. but when it takes on the voice of. someone else uh it could be Abraham. Lincoln it could be uh Josh Clark uh and. that's when you're imagining a. conversation with someone else else uh.

where your own inner voice sounds like. someone else is different than like. Emily having a conversation with another. person right for sure did like you're. the bystander basically there's two. people talking there's a um did you see. that Guardian article about the that. included the woman whose inner voice was. a um like a stereotypical Italian couple. fighting arguing so interesting and. that's how she works stuff out like the. the wife would be like no she needs to. quit her job and follow her dreams and. the husband would be like no she's got a.

good job she needs to keep her feet on. the ground and like eventually one would. win the argument and then that's what. she would do that's what that lady's. inner voice is like yeah it's it's very. fascinating uh one can be motivational. uh or evaluative either you know am I. doing a good job here or do a good job. um they found that you know with like. sports performance and any kind of like. public speaking or any kind of. performative thing you know that voice.

pumping you up can lead to Real Results. usually good yeah and I saw that that. was kind of expanded or changed or kind. of cut into subcategories later on um or. at some point there's evaluative. critical which is basically like you. know did I do a good job or why didn't. you get 100% that kind of thing yeah. there's also positive regulatory which. kind of ties into what you were just. saying like if you imagine. yourself you know doing really well.

practicing shooting baskets there's some. part of you that could be like keep up. the hard work and you'll be in the NBA. in no time or you did a great job like. those would fall under positive. regulatory uh when I play basketball all. I hear in my head is what I hear on the. court which is. swish nice I was gonna say I was waiting. for you to say brick because that's what. I hear right Ruby expressed interest in. playing basketball the other day and I. had a hard time containing myself.

yeah I was like you know that's the only. sport I was actually pretty good at like. I can actually teach you something here. that's awesome man well so but I didn't. want to say it too positively because. then she'd be like nah maybe not very. smart boy you know what you're doing. don't you I'm working on it good J uh. another is. prompted uh no no no I'm sorry expanded. speech which is like if you if you have. to have a tough conversation with. someone and you're literally kind of. just rehearsing that in your head uh as. one or both um that is like when you're. speaking um not in any kind of.

abbreviate abbreviated way yeah it's the. opposite of condensed speech like you're. thinking in or hearing in your inner. voice the the exact words with the. phonetics and the grammar and everything. that you would say out. loud right uh which that got me on a. Sidetrack of like oh that's like why do. people when you hear your voice played. at on a recording why does that sound. different does this have anything to do. with that and I just had to park that. because that gets into a whole other. thing which is should probably be a.

shorty the efference copy no no no like. uh when I listen to a podcast of us like. why does your voice never match when you. hear it out loud as it does in your own. brain I think your efference copy. probably no it has to do with like the. way your skull reverberates actual. physical stuff but I think that could be. a shorty reverberating skull is a great. album name it is and we'll get to Ence. copy later on if I clearly can't wait. yeah it's good stuff there's now we.

reach a point on the list where. coherence starts to emerge um we've got. like basically a an like a a one and. then the opposite I don't know why I. just put it so confusingly so let's just. start there's elicited or prompted which. is inner speech that's basically. triggered by some external Factor. someone comes along and says um here's. some pictures of uh different stuff pick. out the ones whose name's rhyme so. you've got a a boot and then a I don't. know a foot or something like that like.

you would pick out the the boot and the. foot and depending on how uh liberal. they were with their um their judgments. they would say yes that rhymes yeah but. it's a prompt from an outside Source. right uh whereas the next one which. logically follows thankfully pristine or. spontaneous uh that was Russell. Hurlbert kind of a mouthful um a. researcher that coined this one that is. that's just unprompted uh spontaneous. and it's a a part of like what makes us.

us yes like that is your genuine true. inner voice sometimes it just comes out. of nowhere sometimes when you just are. talking to yourself and don't even. realize you're talking to yourself in. your head like that's what what Herbert. Herbert calls pristine and there's this. really great Aon article about um your. inner voice that was written by Phil j j. a e k l um and Phil points out I'm. hoping hoping I can we're on first name. basis me and. but um points out that this is leading.

psychologist to be like oh my God oh my. God if we can study pristine inner. voices like that's essentially like the. the external the exterior of the. unconscious and we would be tapping into. people's unconscious and other people. are like uh I think fer ho is like whoa. whoa whoa let's not get ahead of. ourselves here let's just kind of take. this one step at a time old fero that's. what he's known as they call him the. breaks that's right and well except when. he gets excited about something then he.

yells out Bernie ho that's right uh. maybe before we break we should talk. about this these other four yeah um. because that visk is still they've been. revising it over the years and it's. still in use for some researchers but in. 2015 there was another researcher name. uh oh what a great name Mal gor Zada uh. polasa wasel weasel weasel maybe that's. what I'm going with uh they were like. all right let's categorize it by. emotional type types um and these are.

the faithful friend which has a nice. ring to it uh that's like your personal. strength positive feelings about. yourself you're neighor yeah the. ambivalent parent which is awful uh. otherwise known as Gen X parent um. associated with strength and love and. caring criticism so wait a minute is it. a parent of a gen xer or a gen xer as a. parent I'm confused I would I would say. the parent uh I mean weren't most of our. parents fairly ambivalent about us. yeah I I would think so sure it's like.

oh you're here this is weird because it. associated with strength love and care. and criticism right that's not. ambivalent so here is another problem. with this field people are naming stuff. just way off yeah way off that doesn't. make any sense whatsoever and it's hard. to to remember and understand this stuff. if the pieces don't fit together because. they're dripping you know what I mean. that's gross yeah but it's true I know. what about the others emotionally tiing.

uh proud rival okay and then there's one. that was initially called calm Optimus. but pulasa weasel did a follow-up study. testing to see if her um initial results. were confirmed and faithful friend. ambivalent parent and proud rival were. all there again in the second one but. calm Optimus didn't show up so she ended. up replacing that with something called. helpless child which apparently is. probably the worst of the. worst all. right that's it's a lot it is it it was.

a lot do you understand this anymore. sort of okay good well we're making. Headway chuck all right well we'll take. a break and see if we can uh reain this. puppy in right after this. [Music]. [Music].

uh okay Chuck so one of the things we're. talking about with um inner speech is. it's easy to to kind of confuse it with. like uh say private speech where you're. actually talking out loud to yourself. somebody could hear it but one of the. big differences with inner speech and uh. verbal speech is that it's just faster I. guess allegedly for some people it's not. for me mine goes very slow and actually. slows me down it's like it goes. yeah my the part of me that has to.

process the words slows down the speed. that I could conceivably go at um okay. it just yeah it's it's like old fer ho. it just kind of puts the brakes on. everything but but normally if you. compare the two it should be much faster. um just because a lot of times you're. using condensed speech which you know. again is you're just using Shand that. you can understand I think that's where. I get tripped up I don't really do that. and then. like physically physiologically it's.

just you can think a lot faster than you. can speak because you're not moving your. mouth you're not like taking a breath or. anything like that it's just supposedly. faster is yours faster yeah for sure uh. there was one person a researcher who. actually endeavored to find out how fast. that can get uh this was in 1990 and. they um found that some participants in. the study could think more than 4,000. words a minute uh and you know just for. context the the World Record for fastest.

out loud talker is a Canadian guy who. went to 655 words per minute so this is. wow basically you can think uh up to six. times faster than the fastest talker on. the planet yeah that's at least twice as. much yeah I actually did the math it's. roughly six was that the guy from the. Dunkin Donuts commercials or the FedEx. commercials in the no it's unfortunately. just some uh I mean hey I love this guy. I'm not gonna knock him down his name is. sha Shannon he's a Canadian guy who who.

did the to be or not to be Soliloquy in. 23.8 seconds wow where go Sean you can't. understand anything he's saying but he I. think have judges you know that are like. yeah he's still saying those words uh so. I guess then we reach another question. uh how does inner speech develop which. apparently when they started figuring. this out thanks to a guy named Lev voty. who will meet in a second um it. completely changed our understanding of.

children because up to this point it was. like do kids learn first and then uh or. is their does their brain develop and. then they learn first or do they learn. first by or do they develop their brain. by learning clearly I did Ne at some. point but you can kind of get the gist. of what I was saying yeah I I thought. this was super interesting uh Child. Development is just fascinating to me uh. like going through it now like more than. ever obviously but um for most kids and. by the way this l uh V vigotsky who you.

said we would meet uh well you know what. let's just bring him in come on. in hey I'm dead yeah exactly this is in. the 1930s so he has left us uh Earthwise. but um a lot of this has been born out. in in modern uh research but in the 30s. he was looking at uh like basically it. starts out as private speech like kids. saying things out loud to themselves M. uh as and you know first they start. talking just to communicate I'm hungry I. need to whatever go to sleep actually.

kids never say that I need I want to. stay up right uh and you know that's. just social communication but then as. they get older they start um sort of. privately talking to themselves as an. internal motivator uh and then. eventually that I think around um that's. between like three and four and then. around six or seven is when kids take. that private voice inside their head and. that's when the interner monologue uh. kicks off more or less right and then. they start to after that they continue.

to develop um and get good at things. like condensed speech and create. creating their own self Shand and stuff. like that yeah it's pretty cool um so. again I said that this kind of turned. things on the on our head as far as. understanding P who is a very famous. French psychologist he he said kids are. dumb and then they learn or their brain. grows and then they learn and this. showed the exact opposite that they they. they develop their brain and their. understanding of the world through. learning through this inner dialogue and.

uh it was um viot believe it or not was. a Soviet researcher so the West wasn't. exposed to his ideas until like the 50s. and when they when they finally came out. got were translated it was like great. okay now we finally understand right. he's the one that coined the term inner. voice right yeah yeah I'm not sure what. that is in Russian but yes apparently it. translates to Inner Voice I think it's. uh prop of the Soviet Union I don't know.

why I said that as a German it sounded. Russian to me in my head uh you know we. mentioned that not everyone has inner. speech or develops that uh it exists. like a lot of things do on a spectrum um. some people Emily is a very very she's. like I'm constantly talking to people in. my head really I know I see it happening. uh you know the other interesting thing. she does I don't think I've ever. mentioned on the show and she was like. you can say all this I don't really care. um she spells out when she's stressed.

she'll spell out things with her thumb. in cursive like on a table like just in. air no just like sitting there like. we'll be watching a TV show and I'll. know she's stressed and her her thumb. will be going and now I now I know what. she's doing for years now I'll be like. what are you writing and if it's a scene. about like a a a tin standoff in an. office or something she might spell. typewriter or office or something just. that she sees huh uh it's not always.

like I'm ner it's never like I'm. stressed or anything like that so it's a. way to to alleviate her anxiety I guess. how interesting that's cool I've never. heard of that yeah I hey man I've said. it before and I'll say it again Emily is. one of a kind when you couple up with. people it's and you really dig in you. don't have any of those barriers up uh. it turns out that we're all just a. little strange well how is her air. penmanship. she she's great I can read it all I can.

look at her you know thumb and just I. can spell it right out in my head very. neat wow can you really or you just. joking no no no okay I was like wow it. looks like thumbs gone wild right nice. too hot for TV thumb why uh anyway um. but that's kind of her inner voice too. you know in a way just manifesting. itself physically uh but it's still you. know not out loud uh but uh some people. constantly are doing this kind of thing. talking to themselves. others Sometimes some never uh these two.

researchers Johan uh negard and Gary. Len um if you have zero inner speech. they have termed that. anasia and they say and this is another. kind of frustration like oh between five. to 10% of people don't have inner speech. whereas Russell Hurlbert who we've met. said no it's more like 50 to. 70% have inner speech or no don't have. inner speech right yeah so that's just.

that's wildly different it is wild. that's a great term for it again wild um. so now fer ho comes in and says Whoa. everybody I'm not really excited about. this having a its own term and an endo. fasia and an means lack Endo means inter. phasia speech um because and I think he. makes a reasonable argument here when. you come up with a term especially a. Latin term for something the way people. behave or think or whatever it seems to.

um suggest that this is a condition. maybe even a disorder and he's like. that's not necessarily true especially. if the majority of people don't have. this cner voice so do we really need a. name for it and I think uh negard and. lupian were like it's a pretty cool name. though can we please keep it and Fernie. ho is thinking about it right. now right well that got me thinking like. if you have no inner dialogue does that. mean like do sociopaths have that but I.

I found no correlation there it seems. like sociopaths quite often have an. inner dialogue saying like do this awful. thing right yeah should we who are. you they have other things though like. so it's not like if you don't have an. inner voice that there's no thought. whatsoever it it can also come in. different forms I think is what they're. finding yeah and they've also found uh. this is guard and lean in a study just.

last year in. 2024 uh where they tested they wanted to. know how it related to memory and. apparently a verbal memory of groups. with very uh they tested people with. very high and very low rates of inner. speech and found that they very low rate. of inner speech you're not going to be. as good at just remembering stuff like. your lines in a play or a grocery list. or anything the poor. bastards uh the thing is though is um. that seems to be at least as far as. they've discovered really the only big. drawbacks is you you aren't you don't do.

well necessarily in in memory tests or. something like that um but even even for. somebody who isn't thinking in like. inner speech where they're they're. talking to themselves there's a voice in. their head talking there's other ways. that you can think using what is. basically U some sort of inner inner. well inner speech is the best way to put. it but imagine that without speech. without language or words there's inner.

seeeing some people think in images. right uh in feelings like just your. emotions which I'm kind of like okay is. that does that get you in trouble if. that's how you respond and move and. behave from the world because that's one. of the big things from inner speech is. when what we do is we prepare ourselves. and come up with the plan of action what. are we going to do next how are we going. to respond to this so if you're not. thinking it over in your head and it's. your emotions that that drive you like. that just seems like it could get scary.

um there's Frau huh like it's fraught. fraught exactly yeah there's unsm. unsymbolized. thinking um so you've got like you're. just not you're not thinking like okay I. need to get in that car you just I don't. know I don't know I can't even give you. an example here uh and then the last one. that they've mentioned is sensory. awareness which which is just sensing. things and then I guess responding.

essentially like an amoeba like oh um. this it's this stove is hot so I'm going. to move my hand but imagine nothing in. between the Heat um the sensation of. heat entering your hand and removing. your hand no thought whatsoever between. that that's apparently what sensory. awareness is like huh all right uh that. that study from last year where they. were talking about verbal memory made me. wonder about. dyslexia uh because you know my daughter.

has dyslexia and and I I was like I bet. you there's a tie there and I was. actually right on the money with this. one um supposedly uh if you have. dyslexia you have very little to know in. her voice really so was fascinating yeah. because a lot of times they think in. images and they think in they call it. kind of like 3D thinking gotcha so it's. less word based gotcha that's pretty. cool um I tested my myself on this a. little bit to to find out what I do like.

I typically just think um in words I. guess yeah a lot of times I talk to. myself but I think um I don't know I. think there's a lot going on in there. that I'm not cognizant of I'm I'm really. bad at like how I feel and like just. understanding you know what's going on. in my head at any given time like really. just introspecting like I I do it a lot. but I'm not necessarily good at is I. guess I'm trying to say yeah I know what. you're talking about I I can be like.

that too see I I don't believe that one. bit I think you're a champion at that. kind of thing so well maybe certain. kinds I you know how it gets so. complicated I appreciate you trying to. make me feel better but you're you're. wrong about you not being good at it so. I I tested myself to see if I could. think in just images without words cuz. I've never really thought about that so. some part of me told myself to think of. a watering can. okay and I didn't hear it I it was just.

I like it wasn't in words I didn't hear. it no one spoke it I didn't see it. spelled out it was just there was some. command all of a sudden to think of a. watering can and all of a sudden a. watering can came up and the proof that. I was not thinking in words is that I. couldn't think of the word for what I. was seeing oh wow yeah and then some. other part of me came in and was like. you know I think you were actually. supposed to produce an image of a flower. pot and then I got worried about. cognitive decline and that's no joke.

like that was the whole process right. there wow that is fascinating and I. would imagine hard to do kind of like uh. Ghostbusters you know don't clear your. mind right uh and then you get the saap. puff marshmallow man like that if. anything is suggested I will immediately. see the word if it says like don't think. of the word I'll be I'll think of that. word yeah I guess I didn't I it was more. like not it wasn't like I was saying. like don't do this it was more do this. or try this so because there wasn't like.

that blanket prohibition on not thinking. about the word was easier to do but um. just back to uh Ruby so did you ask her. if she has an in her voice or if she. thinks in symbols or whatever no she was. she's at school so it didn't come to me. but I'll ask her later and let you know. okay do let me know text me she yeah. this says Ruby says that her inner voice. just says uh find Josh kill Josh right. burn Josh no she loves you oh I know I. love her too I think she's.

sweet I love her too I think that's what. I thought you were saying hey did she uh. no did she like Magdalena. Bay uh she did did she really I just. figured that she hadn't and you were. just not mentioning it and no I thought. I texted you back no yeah Josh it was. very sweet got a text and he said hey I. got this new artist that I've been. listening to I think Ruby might like it. I I well I'm glad I was right for some. reason every time I heard it I would. just be like Ruby would really like this. that does not happen every time I listen.

to something so I thought I should just. say something oh I I could have sworn I. texted you but yeah we we listened to it. together and she dug it cool cool so hey. big plug for Magdalena Bay also a nice. place to visit from what I hear she's. she's great is that a place too or you. joking no I'm just kidding man you're. getting me all over the place. today uh back to Russell. Hurlbert uh that's just so hard it. doesn't roll off the tongue sorry uh. even in your head it doesn't yeah oh. yeah and in my inner voice it's hard to.

say. too uh that he developed a tool uh. called the descriptive experience. sampling I would call it the sampler but. Dees that is when he sits you down and. puts I guess a a device in the room and. um just like hey just sit there and. chill out and do whatever and think. about whatever and anytime you hear beep. though you got to write down whatever is. in your brain at that exact moment uh I. guess in the idea of just sorting to try. and and hit on the. randomness of like what you might be.

thinking at any given time and just log. those thoughts right then and then they. would talk about those and he said maybe. this could give me a good framework and. when he got the results back he was like. wow this is fascinating how just all. over the place it was it's so. multi-layered it's so varied uh people. can be thinking of a watering can and be. saying the words flower pot at the same. time with no explanation at all right uh.

sometimes you have multiple voices all. talking over each other and he was just. like this is uh he just put the the. device away and like walked slowly out. of the room I think yeah he yeah so um. this is a really big deal that he was. able to come up with this because this. is one of the reasons why people were so. um I guess wary of trying to study inner. voices because they're so subjective. Herbert figured out a way to like take. as much subjectivity out of it as. possible yeah you know and I think in.

the so simply too exactly and I think in. the more um like the bigger studies that. he came up with like you would get a. beeper and like turned out in the world. for like a week or two weeks or. something so so that you would. eventually get used to the Beeper being. there wouldn't just be like waiting like. I'm going to have this awesome thought. like ready for when the beer goes off. you that's a good way to do it yeah so. that you would like he was genuinely. tapping into whatever random thoughts. are in your head so he also the process. also includes extensive interviews I saw.

like multiple like six seven minutes on. one word One thought from one entry and. then they're really careful not to lead. the person and have them you know start. to um implant memories accidentally that. kind of stuff or revise what they are. actually thinking but instead kind of. dig deeper and deeper and deeper into. what else was there at the time and I. think the people who are participants. studies like this are actually surprised. from these interviews cuz they didn't.

realize like you know in addition to. thinking this word wait there was this. image over here too and um you know it. just goes on from there yeah and he's. like rose Bud's got to be more than a. wagon it was a. sled no I thought it was a a wagon was. it a sled yeah oh good lord you're the. movie guy too aren't you I know man Burl. lives just rolled over in his grave why. did I think it was a wagon it's it's a. sled uh which is really just a wagon. with.

rails yeah I guess it is I think radio. fire makes both so who's going to. discriminate not me uh shall we take a. break yeah all right we'll take another. break and we'll talk a little bit about. brain areas lighting up right after this. [Music].

do stop you should. know okay buddy I'm supposed to lead off. this segment but I'm going to hand it. right back to you because I know when I. say the word. efference you get excited uh we're going. to talk about efference copies at long. last take it away oh okay uh I had never. heard about this before had you same. okay so apparently when we think uh when. we're about to speak right now without. me being cognizant of it there's a part.

of my brain that. is. pre-arranging and planning what I'm. about to say right I have no idea that. this is going on I think I'm just. talking at this point but there's a part. of my brain that knows exactly what's. going to happen and they set out they. send out what's called a sorry my brain. apologizes for that um what's called an. efference copy which is basically a. blueprint of what I'm about to say to. the rest of my brain that includes what.

um what movements I'm going to make with. my jaw uh and tongue um uh an a. prediction of what it's going to sound. like coming out and then also a um. basically a blanket statement like what. you're about to hear is coming from you. so it keeps us from being startled it. allows us to recognize that what we're. saying is coming from us and the most. amazing part about this is that when we. think to ourselves using our in Voice or. inner symbols or whatever but definitely.

inner voice I'm not sure about symbols. now that I mention it we do the same. thing we get basically a crudder version. of the efference copy but it also. includes orders to not move your mouth. to not move your tongue that there's not. going to be a a touch sensation um but. that everything else is like the. efference copy contains all the other. stuff yeah fascinating and efence copy's. not a bad band name. no little little brainy it is but yeah I.

could see I'm going to go to the old. standby math. rock yeah yeah totally. okay uh so as far as the old Wonder. machine goes there obviously have done. plenty of um studies where they they. they always like to see what's lightened. up you know uh but these are often. disappointing to me when it comes to. stuff like this because it's like I feel. like at this point in our show after so. many years even listeners will say. oh I bet the the temporal cortex lights.

up where that's associated with memory. and hearing and language and then brokis. area which we've talked about countless. times is the It's associated with speech. um and yes those areas light up yeah. Tada yes but at the same time there's. also different regions that light up as. well that wouldn't light up when we. speak out loud so it's clear that there. are it has its own thing that inner. voice is different as far as the brain.

is concerned from speech as well but. they bear a strong resemblance to one. another and then also they found the. brain patterns for when we um are. spontaneously speaking to ourselves that. pristine inner inner talk that Herbert. mentioned um that's that uses or. different regions of the brain light up. for elicited types where we're like. using we're we're rehearsing what we're. saying or something like that man my. efference copy.

[Laughter]. is is it is it working slow or fast it's. a little rough around the edges today. okay uh you might be wondering um about. schizophrenia uh this is something that. we we've talked about on the show before. uh because very sadly uh many times you. will see someone suffering from. schizophrenia having a conversation out. loud seemingly with someone so it's it's. very natural to probably wonder like. what's going on there uh you know they. can call those verbal.

hallucinations uh is that someone's. inner voice and they have done studies. and they found that uh there can be an. impairment of the process that creates. efference copies in those cases uh I. think it's it's another term is. corollary discharge and if you have. schizophrenia it can make it hard for. you to identify that voice as their own. so yeah kind of what it seems like is. happening seems like that's exactly. what's happening yeah that message is. not in included in the eference copy. then also I I failed to mention before.

one of the things that the efference. copy does is say you don't need to pay. attention to what is about to come out. of your head as much like the sound of. it it's not coming from you you don't. have to respond to it as you would if. somebody was talking to you um and. that's another thing that gets lost in. the efference copy as well they they. respond to the sound of the voices in. their head in a way that that makes them. feel or they respond to a voice as if.

somebody walked up and was talking to. them the problem is there's no one there. and they are misattributing their own. inner thoughts that's kind of one of the. big um postulations for for. schizophrenia at least Audi verbal. hallucinations associated with. schizophrenia which is that's a great. example right there of why studying. inner speech is such a big deal like if. we can figure this out you could. conceivably help treat people that much.

better you know I mean like being. plagued with inner voices that you think. are coming from somewhere else. especially if they're like commanding. you to do things that's a great thing to. learn how to treat you know that's. debilitating and then also kind of. related to that is um the idea that as. we start to learn more about inner. speech and where it comes from and what. it does and all that that we could. conceivably get better at treating. things like anxiety or OCD um because. those things have clearly shown to be.

associated with negative selft talk um. that that you can increase your own. anxiety and stress by basically being. mean to yourself or um being uh um just. having a negative outlook on life and. it's I mean just from my own experience. it's nuts how Illuminating it can be. when you have somebody point out like do. you do you hear like how you're how. you're viewing the world like in your. own head like do you hear the things. you're saying to yourself and when you.

become aware of it you can change it and. when you change it it can have sweeping. effects on your entire life one of which. is is treating anxiety and even. depression I think yeah I mean man it. seems like so much stuff with The Human. Condition can come down to being in. touch with yourself and really. self-aware uh but you know that can. being too self-aware can also be a. problem so it's just it's living life is. tough. yeah well put man uh with the OCD you.

know I'm a little bit on the OCD. spectrum and mine doesn't manifest. though and negative selft talk but I was. thinking about my inner voice and I do a. lot of um with my OCD it's like. efficiencies I'll talk about in my head. like when I'm doing something like. cooking in my head I'm literally saying. all right you're going to grab the spoon. and you're going to take it over here. and you're going to grab the salt and. then you're going to cut that thing and. I'm kind of planning out stuff that I'm.

about to do but it's in my brain it's. all in the in the and like kind of. wrapped up as an efficiency like if I do. it in exactly just this right way in. this order it's it's the best way to do. that I do that too I associate that with. perfectionism interesting for me it is. at least like I have to do it as. efficiently as possible and efficiency. is a form of perfectionism and that if. you do it all out of order it's Loosey. Goosey and why bother to get out of bed. right but I'll even do that when it's.

not like a specific thing like all right. if you're cooking something I sort of. get that but if I'm at my desk sometimes. and it comes and goes I'll be like all. right you're going to grab the mouse and. click on that thing and you're going to. answer that email and then you're going. to grab your pen same here man like how. interesting all right I had no idea that. we had that in common hey look at us wow. see what happens when you talk about. your inner voice Chuck we're meant to be. I I've been asking you to do this for. decades now I know I was like oh I want. to look at myself well that kind of. leads us to um the purposes of inner.

speech a little bit right I mean talking. about it clearly helps connect people. but there's there's things that we gain. from Talking to Ourselves or just being. able to do that sure uh and we've kind. of touched on them here and there you. know when kids are developing it they. believe that it's a way to um sort of. grow and mature into being responsible. like you you start out hearing your. parents say to go do something go clean. up your room and eventually uh the more. you hear that you'll start thinking I.

should really go clean up my room or uh. I'm not sure when that's supposed to. start but uh yeah at some point. eventually that will lead to you saying. those things to yourself like you would. as a you know responsible adult like I I. gotta clean this mess up right yeah and. also I mean executive functioning um. like making decisions um figuring out. the best solution to a problem by. simulating them um like thinking through. your actions before acting which also um.

often times ties into emotional. regulation yeah all of this uses some. sort of like inner voice inner speech. inner hearing is another way that you. can experience it um that's a that's. just that's an enormous role because. that's essentially how we navigate life. as. adults yeah and you know I already. mentioned sort of the performance aspect. like if you're if you're about to play a. a game um or um run a race or something.

like talking to yourself you got this. you're the best you can do this you're. going to run fast you might have a. routine that you run over in your head. that that's all inner voice yeah exactly. uh and that can be that can really pay. off um obviously much more than than. negative selft talk and motivation you. know it's not exactly tied to what. you're saying but but what you were. mentioning before like how you were. planning out which action to do next for. cooking and then the one Beyond that um. I realized that's why I had to stop. playing video games cuz I would walk.

around thinking about how to do it. better next time oh even when I wasn't. playing the video game and realized like. this is not no way to spend my mental. energy like it's one thing to just sit. down and relax and play a video game and. if all I if if that was it for me um and. I could leave it there I would totally. play video games still but I just. couldn't leave it there yeah mine comes. and goes too and I I haven't too much. about when or why so that I think that's. interesting do they still call them.

video games it feels really 80s or. 90s. uh I I don't know I think it's more used. as like uh like a verb like when I game. gaming right yeah I've heard that I. heard that on in a. magazine yeah but uh I think if you said. hey do you play video games it'd be a. very Genex way to say that okay I I'll. watch then. um if you're wondering about you know.

because we've talked about whether you. dream in other languages if you learn a. second language uh is that a mark of. fluency it kind of ties into inner voice. um generally speaking you you think in. your or you talk to yourself in your. first language um but if you are fluent. and you know let's say I was fluent in. German oh if only and I moved to Germany. um at times there or eventually I could. have an inner voice uh Zeta is talking. in a different way yeah not with a. German accent an American but uh yeah um.

so also deaf people apparently and I. would guess especially if you were um de. from birth um they see or think in sign. language so they. visualize um the word but through signs. yeah so cool that is super cool and then. other people can actually they might um. Envision someone like their face so. they're they're reading their lips yeah. but they're not hearing anything I just. think that's just fascinating they also. don't speak it themselves yeah yeah I.

think that's totally fascinating there. was also in that same Guardian article. with the woman who was featured with the. Italian couple bickering in her head. there was a dude and man I can't find. his name anywhere but um he I think is. the hero of this entire story chuck oh. we don't know his name his name is. Justin Hopkins I found it oh okay he has. this what he basically calls an island. in a sea of void and the island is his.

mind and his mind turns on when it needs. to so I an example because I don't fully. understand how this guy how his mind. works but the best I can say is uh he he. realizes that he's out of milk so he. needs to go buy milk so he buys milk. right mhm but imagine that being the. extent of it so he he needs to buy milk. and he goes and buys milk and he puts. the milk back in his refrigerator and.

then he doesn't have another thought. until the next thing that comes along he. said that he can go hours without a. thought and so he can just sit in front. of a Sunset and enjoy the sunset and the. most basic way that you can enjoy a. Sunset and just not be thinking about. all the problems he has or what he has. to do next or how to most efficiently. watch the sunset um he and this guy is. like I wouldn't want to necessarily live. like that all the time cuz I do enjoy.

having like an inner life but to just be. able to modulate it and do that once in. a while I think that guy's amazing um. and apparently in the guardian article. they said that he says he sleeps like a. baby which I could totally. imagine well interestingly I know that. I'm drifting towards sleep when my inner. voice gets really weird it's. like like I'll be thinking things and. when I start thinking about things and I. can tell that are just absolute weird.

nonsense it's almost like pre-dam but. the problem is now I know that's that. sleep is coming and I know that's what. that signals so in my brain I will start. inter talking going all right baby I'm. about to fall asleep and that takes me. out of it so okay I okay I I'm I'm. fascinated by this like give us an. example of how your brain starts just. becoming nonsensical or speaking gibber. or whatever that you can recognize. you're starting to drift off like what's.

I'll be drifting and all of a sudden it. like I mean I'm just making this up. because I can't I I don't get up and. write it down what I should do is is. write it down but then I've ruined my. nap or whatever up yeah uh but it's you. know all of a sudden if if I'm just hear. words or saying hear my voice saying. words like you know uh you know the. chicken put on a cape and uh and played. a little basketball and jumped in a pot. of chili like complete nonsense wow and. I will recognize it's happening and go. all right that means I'm I'm about there.

and then that takes me out of it and. then I'm like dagnab it yeah but a lot. of times you can just experience it and. not note it and just fall asleep or note. it and then just not let it Rouse me too. much and it'll lead to sleep gotcha man. that's amazing I've never heard of that. very that's pretty cool oh boy but every. time I've said something weird about. myself like that on the air like. stepping on cracks with the same place. of my foot every time with the OCD I've. had people write in and say I do the. same thing right so um yeah I think.

that's that's I was going to say like I. know we've been talking about ourselves. a lot but part of part of it for me is. like you know I want to hear from people. saying like I do that too absolutely um. okay well oh one other thing before we. go um there was a tweet a very what it's. become kind of a famous tweet from a few. years back I think in 2020 where um. somebody just basically said some people. have an interiew voice and some people. don't and it revealed this this.

commonality among people if you don't. really have an inner dialogue monologue. in speech whatever um you just assume no. one else does either and if you do have. it you just assume everybody has it and. it was really kind of eye opening to. people to find like that's not the case. at all it's basically a. spectrum yeah and I mean maybe new. research was spawned because everyone. was like oh wait a minute people are. interested in this. yeah fer ho said fer ho that's right uh.

well you got anything else uh I mean. there's a bazillion other things but. we'll just park it right here okay it is. parked and since we just parked it so. everyone who has been listening to the. show from the outset knows we've just. unlocked listen room. maal that's right I'm going to call this. Toledo and this is from Alexander nozar. or Alex um Alex says you know every time. Josh talks about come from Toledo I was. think about Tony Pacos uh which he.

mentioned in the fan Theory episode um. what was it mentioned however was and. Tony Pacos is what it was a restaurant. right it's like a hot dog place very. famous um in Toledo and then Jamie far. made it famous on Mash that's right uh. what wasn't mentioned however was what. makes Tony Pacos awesome first and. foremost it was founded by Hungarian. immigrant making it a significant place. for Hungarian Americans especially here. in Ohio which has a pretty large. Hungarian population uh in Dayton. Columbus Toledo and I believe Cleveland.

uh my family is Hungarian on both sides. with great-grandfathers coming over here. in the 1900s uh early 1900s uh Tony Paco. serves not just Hungarian food like spel. but they're well known for their. homemade pickles and most importantly. they're hot dogs but what makes it truly. unique is as a fun place to visit is. that anytime a celebrity visits they are. asked to sign a hot dog bun which is. then encased in plastic and hung on the. wall it's been a while since I've been. there but I remember Leslie odm Jr's. name and of course Jamie far so I think.

you two should go up there on some sort. of tour and you can experience her. awesome food but also sign a hot dog bun. I don't think they'd let us sign the hot. dog bun but I appreciate the thought you. Kidd me didn't you get a key to the city. or something no there was a listener. years back who was trying to get get us. actually the key to the city and I don't. think it went anywhere well you should. get a key to Toledo I should get a key. to ston Mountain Georgia you should sign. a hot dog M and I should sign uh I guess. Stone Mountain plus also we should have.

the hot dogs while there because Alex. ain't lying they're really good and I. have to say if you're ever in Toledo or. apparently Dayton Columbus Cleveland and. you aren't in the mood for a hot dog but. there's a Tony Pacos nearby go get the. stuffed cabbage cuz it is topnotch like. you wouldn't think this hot dog place. why does it have stuffed cabbage well. because it's a Hungarian place and it is. really good like really good okay. I'm just going to say it again it's. really good stuff cabbage what's it.

stuff with love magic um I'm guessing. three kinds of meat. probably awesome it is it is very good. uh well thanks a lot Alex it's always. nice to hear from a fellow ohioan I'm. guessing yeah yeah uh and if you want to. be like Alex and write in and tell us. about something we love like Tony Pacos. or whatever you can send us an email to. stuff podcast iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of.

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