Impression Management | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart. Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. And we're putting on our best. faces in this episode of Stuff You. Should Know, right? Our front stage. self. Yeah. And speak speaking of stage, Chuck, I have a great intro to this. I. believe it was Rush who first said, "All.

the world's a stage." Yeah. And the men. and women on it are merely players or. something like that. Yeah. Performers. and portrayers. Yeah. Each another's. audience. Is that what he says? I never. knew. And I've never bothered to look up. the lyrics because there's definitely. some words in there. I'm like, I don't. know what Getty Lee just said. Yeah, I. think I'm pretty sure that's right. It's. a great great song. Limelight. Very well. written. Very original stuff. Yeah. Um, so we're talking about impression. management today, right? Yes, sir. And,

uh, what do you think about it? Well, I. think that I just, the more I've done. this show over the years, the more I. realize that I could have been a. sociologist. Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. Th. fascinates me to no end. Uh, I took one. sociology class in college and that's. it. And I remember at the time, you. know, when very little outside of. English major classes interested me, I. was like, man, this is super interesting. to me, but not enough to pursue it. But,

um, human behaviors is endlessly fascinating. to me. Yeah. And one of the things, um, sociology gets beat up and edged out and. elbowed in the face by psychology a lot, unfairly, I think, too. Yeah. I'm not. talking about social psychology. No, this is sociology. Yeah. Um and if sociology started out, we should say basically examining. massive institutions. It was macro. sociology, religion, um e like.

economics, politics, that kind of stuff. And just how people behaved and. interacted or how how people came. together to form these institutions. And. then the guy we're going to talk about. today came along. He's like, let's kind. of zoom in a little more. And like you. were saying, he he kicked off this um. this type of sociology that that. examines like people, just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes. we don't even know what we're doing. And.

apparently um you're very interested in. that. I am. And you know what it seems. like the more I I've learned about. Irving Gooffman through today's research. and you know researching him a little. further like he's a Canadian American. sociologist and this is like the mid. 20th century 1950sish. when he started doing a lot of this. work. Uh he seems to me like someone who. was just fascinated by human behavior. even more even in a way that like other. sociologists weren't especially at the. time. Yeah for sure. Um he Yeah. Yeah.

And he also I I read that he developed. like a real sympathy for the people who. were pushed to the fringes of society. unfairly basically across the board. Uh. so he was not only like a really good. sociologist and and uh very intuitive. and apparently he had a really. interesting writing style too. He loved. the good like turn of phrase. Mhm. Um he. was also like a very empathetic good. person too from what I can tell. Oh man, I'm so glad I didn't hook my hook my. wagon to the wrong dude, right? No, you.

hooked it to the right guy. When it's. somebody from the 1950s, you never know. what's going to happen there. Uh we. should probably say we're talking about. though. You um impression management or. self-presentation or perception. management uh is is basically these are. terms that he all came up uh he came up. with all of these essentially. And it's. it's just how you present to others. And. you know, we'll get into the the nuts. and bolts of it, but how how much you. might think about that, how much is. automatic, how much is intuition, how. much of it is authenticity.

Uh it's super fascinating to me. I just. I love this stuff. Yeah. And a lot of it. I mean, if when we start talking about. it too, it'll just seem very common. sense, like, yeah, of course you're. going to um you know, mind your P's and. Q's and and sit up straight and uh be. friendly in a job interview. And that is. a type of impression management. But it. is way more granular than that. To the. point. where like if you're into language, linguistics, that kind of thing, the. entire purpose of a conversation is to.

exchange information. Like I know this. now I'm sharing it with you. If a person. says, "Thank you very much." And that's. what a conversation's for. As far as. impression management goes, in Irvin. Goffman and his ilk, conversations are. essentially performances that two people. share and do for one another that helps. create a version of ourselves that we. kind of walk around with and that that. changes and. there's very little point to a.

conversation other than that. It's it's. a it's a radically different view of. things. Yeah. Uh, I also think it's. interesting and this, you know, this is. all just precursor stuff that we're. babbling on about, but um you when you. said it just seems like um uh instinct. or whatever, would you say common sense? Mhm. To do these things. Not everybody, my friend. Uh and that is something that. I have gotten better about over the. years. Um, it it used to be something. that really bothered me and I would, you.

know, leave a interaction with somebody. or something and with Emily and be like, "God, like just social cluelessness is. such a turnoff for me. Like, read the. room, buddy." That kind of thing. But. then the more I've gotten older and the. more we've all learned about different. neurodiversities, I've I've definitely. found myself in a place where I'd try to. be like, "Hey, I don't know what this. person's deal is." like they may be. struggling just to present themselves as. you know passing or masking and you know. we're going to talk about all this stuff.

in a situation to just to sort of get. by. So I try to really keep that stuff. in mind these days for sure and I feel. like there's there's different tanches. um yeah there's the one you just. described there's people who this is so. effortless too they don't even have to. think about it and they're just great. basically across the board. Then there's. everybody else in the middle. Some. people in the middle are better at it. than others. Some people think too hard. about it and they become obvious and. clumsy and um essentially though no one. can escape it I think is my point.

There's nobody out there who doesn't. engage in some sort of impression. management essentially their entire. lives. Yeah. And and neurodiversity. aside again which we'll talk about there. are also people who aren't. neurodiversity who are just clueless. a-holes. Uh and I have found too in my. life that I believe narcissism plays a. part. I think narcissists have a much. harder time uh because they're generally. just have their heads up their own butts. and are so about the self that they are. often the ones that I found if they if.

they don't have some sort of you know. neurode divergence that's the reason why. they are like they are it may be because. of narcissism because you know usually. the reply after someone is like read the. room buddy they're like what what I'm. perfect what do you mean read the room. you read the room exactly so uh let's. get into it and we'll start with. Gooffman and where he got his start. Again, this is Irving Gooffman, groundbreaking sociologist. Um, he. started off doing fieldwork in a. Scottish village and rather than.

figuring out how the city council worked. for that or the village elders basically. kept everybody in line, he just imshed. himself in the village and just paid. attention to how people interacted with. one another. And really like um that's a. very uh anthropological way of studying. It was very not how they did it at the. time. Yeah. Among sociologists. So he. was he was groundbreaking. And he he. essentially went like I'm going to take. this field and just put it take it in a.

different direction. So let's go. Yeah. For sure. Uh he wrote a book in 1956. called the presentation of self in. everyday life. What a great title. No. colons. It's exactly what it says it is. Mhm. uh a very big book in the world of. sociology and the international. sociological association named it as the. 10th most important so uh sociology book. of the 20th century and in this book is. where he touched on what you talked. about with this sort of performance. aspect of our everyday lives uh with he.

didn't invent it you know it was an. existing concept but uh dramaturgical. theory which is what you said like we're. all sort of operating on a social script. uh sort of like the Terminator like it's. pretty limited. You don't have endless. options. You're like, "Maybe you should. say one of these four things at at this. dinner party when someone brings up a. thing." Uh, and even if it's a brand new. situation, you're drawing on the scripts. that you've used over and over in your. life to to work out how to interact in.

the scene, right? Yeah. And it's also. Yeah. It's been shaped by interactions. with other people. It's shaped by um. what you've seen on TV, which can be. very dangerous because stuff that's like. hilarious on a sitcom, right, does not. necessarily translate well into real. life. It's like you're being a huge jerk. or you're not really that funny, you. know, in the case of somebody who models. themselves after friends. Yeah. Like. pull my finger doesn't always break the. ice. What? No. Pull my finger always. works. Oh, okay. Great. Uh but yeah, so.

what what his point was in this. dramaturgical theory and he like you. said he didn't invent it but if you if. you look into it he's basically like. he's the guy who took it and ran with. it. Yeah. And no matter where you are. you're performing and depending on where. you are you're going your performance is. going to be different. Right. So if. you're sitting there at school you're. going to act different than you do at a. bar. Yeah. Right. Sure. Ideally. Uh. yeah, you would you would hope for sure.

And then if you're at work, um you know, you're going to act a little different. from that, too. And it's essentially. even when you're hanging out with your. closest. friends, sociologists believe that. you're still performing in some way, shape, or form, just probably less than. you normally do. Yeah. And some think. even when you're by yourself that that. still informs how you talk to your. little person on your shoulder, right? Which is really interesting. Uh he.

talked about uh appearance and like. clothing even and how they will convey. when and when we say actor, we're just. talking about a person, but in his. context of it all being a performance, he called them actors. But you know, your your costume that you put on is. going to convey like maybe your social. status, uh maybe what kind of job you. have. Um there's, you know, there's that. outward appearance and then there's the. manner in which you deal with someone. and obeying the just sort of societal. rules in a social situation is a big-.

time thing. And if you if you start to. do things that don't comply with what. people generally expect in, you know, at. a dinner party or on an elevator or. something like that, it can upset people. around you. Um, I I think the. interesting thing that I took from that. is I mean that's kind of common sense, but uh when you're writing like a. screenplay or something like dramatic. writing or a play, uh the most. interesting characters are usually. people that um do things that surprise. you or that fly in the face of maybe a.

social norm or make a decision that's. unexpected. So, I think it's interesting. that in drama it makes for very. compelling characters, but in real life. we kind of don't want that generally. Yeah. like the manic pixie dream girl, right? Uh I don't know what you mean by that. I. mean, I know what that term means, but I. don't know how it relates to this. Oh, they're always doing like crazy stuff. that like makes the protagonist dude. fall in love with them or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I gotcha. So, in terms. of of a script that might be engaging. even within the world of the script, whereas in real life, I don't know, a.

minute pixie dream girl might go over, but the person saying pull my finger at. the dinner party may not. Well, it's. funny that you say drama, too, because. to me, where where my mind went was. comedy. Like, almost all comedy is a. person behaving in a way that is that. violates the the situation that they're. in, violates the scene and the script. that they're supposed to be saying. That's all from Adam Sandler to uh late. Adam Sandler, right? It's it's all.

basically that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. that's the basis of jokeelling really is. uh is the unexpected thing happens. Mhm. Super interesting. And then one other. thing too, he made a really good point. He said um that the characters or the. people who are interacting and again. just essentially performing that they're. trying to come to a common definition of. the situation is what he called it. Yeah. That expected norm. Yeah. And so. like if you see say a scene on TV, it's. just such a perfect analogy because.

that's essentially what he's talking. about and there's just one dude standing. at a bus stop and it's a businessman. say. Mhm. That scene is in a super. position. It hasn't been defined yet. because there's only one person and by. the the entrance of the next person, that's when the scene will start to be. defined. If it's that guy's boss, he's. gonna act totally different than if it's. a a pickpocket or something like that. So, the scene hasn't been defined yet, but regardless of how it ends up, like.

what scene it is, both are playing their. role essentially that we just innately. know almost. Not innately because it's. learned, but it it becomes just second. nature for most people. Yeah, for sure. Um, he also thought that, um, you know, there's obviously verbal and nonverbal. parts to this with body language and how. you dress and all that stuff, but uh, Gooffman himself thought that the. non-verbal part uh, did I say non-p. purple? If you did, it was lost on me, but I like non-purp. Okay. I think I.

might have said. non-purp uh, which is basically every. other color but purple. Yeah. Uh, he. thought the non-verbal part was the most. significant because it's harder to fake. Mhm. Uh which I think is is pretty. interesting. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. that also like uh while you're. performing quote unquote again, do we. need to keep saying that? Like people. know what we mean, right? Yeah. I mean, we could just say interacting with. another person. Yeah. While you're. interacting uh as as the actor, right?

Uh you may be aware that you have like a. goal in mind like I got to, you know, I'm at this thing. I got to present. really well. Or you may not. Yeah. You. you may not have a goal. It may be, as. we'll see, um, you're just trying to. keep from freaking the other person out, you know, like you're not trying to get. anywhere. You're not trying to advance. or get something from the person or make. somebody think that you're great, but. just just being engaged, forced into a. social interaction like that, you have.

to perform a certain way or else the. other person is going to to be weirded. out, is going to want to get away from. you. Sometimes people get really upset. when somebody violates norms and I think. you can really um you can this explains. it a lot because it's like um someone is. expecting somebody to behave in a. certain way that person purposefully. doesn't behave in that way then the. people around them might get angry at. that person even though they might just.

be being themselves. Yeah. or uh get. scared like you know when you get on an. elevator by yourself and there's only. one person on there. You act in a. certain way as a almost way to say. you're safe right now. Like you don't. you don't need to worry about me. I'm. just going to my room. I'm not going to. I'm not that guy that's going to be some. weirdo on the elevator. I promise you're. okay. Yeah. Or even like try to strike. up a conversation like that's that's. unnerving and and disarming. Uh yeah. I.

mean, I think definitely not as much for. me as for some people because I was. raised in the south. I'm more used to. that. And and definitely also in an. enclosed space like an elevator, the. norms are much different than like. walking down the street or something. For sure. You know, you're trapped. basically in that little box, right? Yeah. You have a captive audience and. now I'm panicking. So, um, just to kind. of wrap up the whole dramaturical theory. part, uh, Gooffman said we have our. front stage selves, which I I think you. referred to earlier, right? That's us.

right now and that's what we do on our. job every day. Okay. Yeah. But I feel. like we're not that much different in. real life. No, I think you're right. I. mean, that's that's one of the reasons. this show works, I think, and why a lot. of podcasts work is because people are. their more true selves. But it's also. sort of the best version of our true. self. Like, we're not the jerks that we. can be in real life. Yeah. And that's a. really great point that we'll see later. Like, just because you're doing this. doesn't mean you're a phony or. inauthentic. You're just drawing on the. parts of yourself that are already there. that apply to the situation best and.

presenting those. Yeah, totally. And I. said we, I meant me. You're not a jerk. So, I'm just speaking for myself. Hey, man. I'm always happy to be included. with you. You I'm along for the ride. Well, everybody can be like that here. and there. That's all I'm saying. Right. Right. I know what you're saying. You. don't have to explain it to me. All. right. I was explaining it so everyone. else didn't think I was just dragging. you down with me. So, you got front. stage selves. Either this is when you're. you're on stage. You're really out. there. Uhhuh. There's backstage when. you're hanging with your homies. Yeah.

Have cigarettes. Home boys. Yeah. Home. girls. Yeah. Uh yeah. And just general. homies. Um maybe your family if you get. along with your family and you might. feel comfortable and calm around them. So that would be your backstage self. But note this. He's not saying. frontstage self and then yourself. It's. still a backstage self. You're still. attached to the stage. You're still in. the theater. Yeah. Even when you're hanging out with. your homies. Yeah, that's true. And then.

there's the offstage and that's is when. it's just one-on-one. This is the best. And that's still a kind of performance. Yeah. This example is just so it just. nails it. When uh you you're a teacher. and you see your student at the grocery. store. Yeah. See him IRL. That's. like that's just such a jarring thing to. see as a kid. Oh man. And it's it's. thrilling. It's exciting because they. don't exist outside of that role. No. Exactly. So now you see them and they're.

not dressed like they normally are. They're friendly to your mom or. something like that. They're And then. they're buying olives, too. And they. look like they're really into the to. figuring out which olives they want. Right. So that's just for the kid. for. the teacher, you still have to comport. yourself in a way that's like, you know, I'm not going to just start cussing in. front of the student and just talk like. I I might normally talk. I still have to. pretend or act like I do when I'm this. kid's teacher. But that still it's like. a it's it doesn't necessarily fit the.

grocery store stage. So that teacher's. in a really weird position, right? Then. that would be offstage interactions. Yeah. Uh yeah, for sure. I love that. one. Time for a break. Yes. All right, we're just getting cooking everybody. So. come back more if you want to learn more. about yourself right after this. Learning stuff from Joshua and Charles. [Music].

All right. So, one of the uh keys to. Gooffman's theory is um how important it. is to avoid being embarrassed or. embarrassing others. Uh he talked about. face work uh like saving face or losing. face, not wanting to be embarrassed, but. also he wrote about just the the your. facial expressions uh especially in.

terms of how you disagree with somebody. Even if you say the words uh that you. think are the right way to disagree with. someone, but your face says WTF, like. that conveys a confusing message. So. even the facial expressions you make uh. have to be considered. Yeah. It's that. speech plus non-verbal that equals your. performance, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's. funny to see people who are trying to. say something, but they're facial. expression just doesn't match up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a problem I've had. to work on in my own marriage with not.

being the mo the best communicator, which, you know, which is Emily being. like, "Well, you're saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting." And. I'm like, "Yeah, no, I don't want to. play Red Dead Redemption." Oh, well, that's always true. The opposite that. is. Right. So, the other point of that, in addition to that non-verbal use of. face, you said also you're trying to. help people save face, right? So I said. earlier that you might be forced into a. social to act in a social situation a.

certain way just because you don't want. to freak out your friend's mom who you. saw at the mall by acting bizarrely or. you know in a different way than you. should. Um similarly if your friend's. mom at the mall falls like slips and. falls in the middle of the mall and is. embarrassed you're going to do something. that your performance calls for you to. do something to help her save face as. well. That's part of face work, too. Yeah, for sure. Uh, and face work is. another dramatic uh term. Oh, is it? I.

didn't know that. Yeah, I think face. work and body work, that's all a a drama. thing. That makes sense. Is there a. thing? Learning how to move within your. space. Uh, yeah, private parts work. That's awesome. So, uh, to Gooffman, it's, you know, it. it could be an obvious thing like if. you're, you know, on a first date or. something like that or like you. mentioned earlier, a job interview, like. that's the super obvious situation, but. a lot a lot of times it's, you know, it's really everyday interactions still. count. Uh and there's a philosopher.

named uh Lucy McDonald who was uh. writing about like um like when somebody. falls down in public almost always the. very first thing that'll happen is that. person will look around to see who if. anyone saw them and based on that. they're it's going to change their. reaction. Uh and it reminded me of that. story I've told before about in college. when I saw the guy bust uh bust his butt. on a bike in Athens, right? and the. books went spilling all over the. sidewalk and this dude just opened one. of the books laying on his side with his. bike wheel spinning acted like he was.

reading it and it's one of the funniest. things I've ever seen. And then the. other day on my new bike, I tried to do. a wheel slide in a gravel parking lot. Mhm. And I I busted my butt and fell. I. didn't go, you know, ass over apple. cart, but I I hit the dirt and the first. thing I did as a 54 year old was look up. and see if anybody saw me. You didn't. jump up and say, "I meant to do that.". Like, well, if somebody had been had. seen me, I would have, but nobody saw. me, so I just sat there and was like,

"Nuts." Right? So, if you do that, like. say if people do see you, you might like. look back like closely at the ground. like what did I say over what's wrong. with this bike? Or you might say like, "I hate Mondays." Or something like. that. And what you're doing is something. you mentioned earlier. You're reassuring. people like I'm not a threat to you or. to the social order. That was just a. total accident. Yeah. And it might seem. like that person is overly. self-conscious or something like that or. they might be a little neurotic to feel.

like they have to do that. Yeah. But um. but uh the philosopher Lucy McDonald. that you mentioned also points out that. that's actually not what's going on. that everybody feels like they need to. do that and that it's a rational. response to the social expectations that. we have of one another. So, it just kind. of reveals this um social intelligence. that that most people have that is you. don't even know that you're doing in a. lot of cases and that you feel even. compelled to do internally. Like when I.

do that, if I'm so embarrassed, I I will. blurt something out like oops or or I. hate Mondays. And um it feels like it's. coming up from, you know, my gut and. then out of my mouth. Like it it's not. something where I'm like, I better say. something really quick. It's just a a a. involuntary reaction essentially because. it's so ingrained. Yeah, because you're. not a sociopath. Yeah, I like to think. so. Yeah, I like to think so, too. Uh,

it's funny thinking about that guy in. Athens that fell. He he didn't even look. around because it wasn't like, "Oh, did. someone see me?" Cuz hundreds of people. for sure saw him, right? It was like a. crowded campus. So, I felt bad for the. guy, but it was hysterical. And one day, I'm going to meet that person, I think. Yeah. I wonder what he's doing now. Can. you imagine if I was at a party one day. and somebody was telling that story? Like, one time in college, I wrecked my. bike and acted like I was reading a. book. What would you do? Would you buy. him something? I I would hug him. immediately and be like, I saw that and. I've been telling that story for 40.

years. That's great. 40? No, not even. 30. Yeah, 30 is about right. Yeah. And. he would be like, I'm not a hugger. Yeah. Then I've screwed up yet again. Uh so I said that when people um fall. and they're they're saying like, "Oops,". or "I hate Mondays," or they're looking. at the crack, or they're going through. their book, whatever. um they're. reassuring people that that they're. actually normal. And the norm in. countries like the US say in the west is.

what's called civil in attention. Mhm. to where. you ideally you acknowledge the presence. the existence of another person say that. you're you're on a subway with and. that's where it ends and then yeah it. ends there right something that I find. dismaying is I see more and more that. acknowledgement doesn't even happen it's. just totally ignoring one another and. that man that gets me especially if you.

nod at somebody else and they just. ignore you I think That is awful. Yeah. I mean, not to be old old man here, but. cell phones and smartphones have. definitely played a part in that, I. think, because people escape into the. comfort of like, well, I'll just look at. this instead. Yeah. Yeah. And they're. just like, "Oh, what's on my phone?". Yeah. Uh I mean, if you were raised in. the South or have lived in the South, then um you're more comfortable with uh. more acknowledgement and maybe even a. brief conversation with a stranger.

Sure. Uh that can be very offputting for. people that aren't used to that. Uh so I. I try to remember that when I am in a. maybe I've had a drink or two and I. struck up a conversation with someone I. don't know on an elevator. Yeah, I've. done that too. I did it last week in. fact. So uh speaking of elevators, Chuck, you mentioned going into an. elevator and turning around and what a. violation of the social order that is. The elevator is this um perfect little. encapsulation for sociologists. No man.

study because we just know what to do. when somebody gets on an elevator and. there's already people on there. Everybody spreads out, rearranges. himself to make room for this person in. their personal space. And it's not like. we're like, "Okay, I'm going to go over. here, you go here, and when somebody. next person comes on, you get off, and. then this person's going to go where you. are." It just happens. And it's a. beautiful. synchronized effort, right? It really. is. But um when sociologists get on.

elevators and they turn around, there's. a. apocryphal story about um Irving. Gooffman doing that and studying and. people just flipping out by No, they. don't turn around. They just go straight. in and stand there looking at the rear. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Um right. Not. well put. So that's actually um not just. what sociologists like to do. It was. like big one on candid camera back in. the day for a while. Yeah. And um there. was one candid camera um episode where.

they did the opposite where the elevator. was already had a bunch of people on it, but they were facing the rear when the. doors open. Oh wow. And the person who. was being I guess pranked came on. I. wouldn't get on that elevator car. So. this person they got on and they kind of. looked like they didn't know what to do. for a second and then they turned and. they faced the rear. I knew it. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. It was almost. like um they thought that they hadn't. gotten the revised script pages that day. and everybody else did. So, they just.

needed to go along with it because they. didn't want to upset the apple cart. Things had changed. This is not what. they expected, but they weren't about to. be the one who just stuck to the. original norm and upset everybody else. Wow. Did they yell out, "Can I have the. new sides, please?" Someone fly those in. line. Uh that's really funny. And that. doesn't surprise me. And I bet the live. audience at Canon Camera just got a a. big old hoot hoodie laugh on that one. Man, that Allan fun. Um, so there was a guy named Harold. Garfinkle, another sociologist that.

would I I mean he called them breaching. experiments, but it's really messing. with people and he did things like that. like sit down on the escalator or just. like point at somebody and I'm not a big. fan of those kind of experiments. No, but they're they're all over uh YouTube. people doing that. I bet it's pretty. funny. But um yeah, if you're ever in a. mall and somebody sits down on an. escalator or whatever, it's probably a. sociologist. Yeah. If not, just politely go in the. other direction. Well, no. That's why you carry a a water.

gun around with you. You just squirt him. in the face a few times and say, "Stand. up." Super Soaker. Uh so there's ways. that we figure out how to perform. because like I said, a lot of it just. seems ingrained. A lot of it requires. thought, too. Especially if you're. trying if you have a goal, like you're. trying to become a member of a country. club, which you know, everybody's been. through that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and these. two researchers, they were psychologists. back in 199 uh 1990. Mark Leuri and.

Robin Kowalsski. They basically figured. out how we do this kind of stuff. And. they broke it into two things. There was. impression motivation, why you're doing. this, and impression construction, how. you're doing this. Yeah. Uh and as far. as motivation, uh it's based on a few. factors. Um one is how relevant a person. thinks their image is to achieve this. goal. So in other words, does it really. matter here how I'm acting to get what I. want? Um how valuable the goal is, which. is do I this is something I really want? Am I trying to get a job or just.

whatever something a little less stakes? Uh and then finally, the extent to which. they believe they're not currently being. perceived uh in the most useful way. In. other words, how much do I need to pour. it on here to get what I want? Yeah. Like, how am I being perceived? And then. what do I need to do to change that? Right. Exactly. So, you put all those. together and that's your motivation for. figuring out some impression management. Again, this is the ones where you're. like actually giving thought to it. Right. Uh, in impression construction, how you actually carry this stuff out,

they broke into five um little parts. One is um your self-concept, right? So. you're going to base how you carry this. out on how you feel you are. So you're. trying you're starting with your. authentic self ideally, right? Because. people value authenticity. People don't. want to just keep up a lie. Again, that's a half hour sitcom right there. Um because it always crumbles. It always. crumbles everybody in real life and on.

sitcoms in 22 minutes and then it gets. resolved. Right. Exactly. Um, so your. self-concept is where you're going to. start and you're going to kind of draw. from that. Imagine a big um steamer. trunk on stage that carrot tops going. through just pulling a bunch of props. out of. That's what you're doing when. you first start to figure this out. That's going through the steamer trunk. of your self-concept. Wait a minute. Are. you saying right now we are carrot top?

The the entire world is Yeah. All the. world's a stage and we are merely kerat. keratops. Uh then there's the desired. identity. So you're trying to protect an. identity. Uh and you base that on what. like um what what you what you want. people to think you like and don't like. or what you want to be or don't want to. be. Right. So you might really try to. distance yourself from something you. don't want to identify with. Yeah. Like.

oh boy, how about that? Uh uh John. Legend. That was random. And all that immense. talent like get over it, buddy. You want. to be very careful with this. This is. one of those things that shows what a. tightroppe you can be walking when. you're purposefully constructing. impression management. If you're in that. case yucking someone's yum, that can. turn people off and ruin all of the. other stuff that you just did. So it can. backfire. Someone opens up their jacket. and they're wearing the John Legend.

shirt, right? or you accidentally say it. to John Legend because you didn't. recognize him. Yeah. I don't know why I. pulled him out. I know nothing much. about him other than La La Land and the. fact that he's super talented. Yeah. No, he was perfect. I mean, totally neutral. Everybody loves him. Like, it was just. that was great. Non-controversial in. almost any way. Yeah. All right. He's. managed to distance himself from his. wife's public persona. So, yeah. Non-controversial. Who is she? Chrissy. Tegan. Oh, I I know that name, but I.

don't know much about her either. That's. fine. All right, moving on. Yeah. So, the next one is target value. And it's. basically saying like you you're just. going to take those things from your. steamer trunk of your authentic self and. you're going to adorn yourself with the. ones that make the most sense for this. identity that you're trying to be viewed. with. Yeah. But based on what you think. they want, right? Yeah. But again, this. is not where you're just like, you know, stealing stuff from other people and.

making it your own. You're going. ideally, you're going into your own. authentic self and saying, "This one. makes the most sense to what this. person's going to expect or want." Yeah. Exactly. Like aligning yourself with. someone else's values, ideally stopping. short of like, you know, doing something. that's not inauthentic. Yeah. And. there's one thing I think we should say. at this point because it's really easy. to just assume like this is what. everybody should be doing and I think. it's worth questioning. Um it's not.

inherently a good thing to change. yourself or to rearrange yourself. It. can be a bad thing but it can also be a. good thing too. So just just know we're. not saying like you should be outdoing. this. You should really be thinking. about what you have inside yourself that. you can impress other people with. That's not what we're saying. But people. do do that and that's falls under the. umbrella of impression management. Yeah. We're we're saying this is what Liry and. Kowalsski have noticed happens. Yeah. Blame it on them and the rain. Uh and.

then there's current uh Oh, I'm sorry. I. skipped one, didn't I? Ro constraints. Uh presenting yourself in a way that's. uh well, that's kind of the same thing. as target value, except target value is. a little less that I want to align. myself with what you may be into. Yeah. and a little more of just like the. general expectations of a social role, right? Like you would wear a top hat and. a monle to a meeting with a bunch of. bankers because that's what they would. expect you to do. Exactly. And then. there's current social image which is. what you perceive of yourself and um and.

if other people if you think other. people perceive you in a way you don't. like. Yeah. Uh there are some other. techniques that they've uh you know that. people can use. Um, flattery of course. will get you everywhere. Um, ingratiation, stuff like that. Uh, conforming to expectations. That's kind. of like, you know, the other stuff I. think like role constraints and stuff. like that. Uh, and then a big one is um. like suppressing your emotion and. maintaining your self-control. Like.

again, that doesn't mean to be. inauthentic, but that just means like. read the room. Is it time for me to be. overly emotional about something or is. it not? Do I need to kind of put a lid. on that for now? Yeah. If you're. triggered and you have a temper because. people are taking too long in the. grocery store line, um, don't push a. whole load of groceries back into an. aisle and shout a curse word and store. them out. No, I've seen it in real life actually. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, it was like what what is. going on, buddy? It's hard to not think.

just constantly what's wrong with. people. But you know what the fact is? Again, as I get older, there's a lot. wrong with a lot of people. So, I try to. keep that in mind. Yeah. Everybody's got. some sort of burden they're carrying and. some people are um more vocal about it. than others. I guess that's a very nice. way to say it. More some people uh. misproject it in the wrong way more. loudly than others. That's another way. to say it. Um there's also one called. basking in reflected glory which is. basically like hanging out with somebody. who's a great example of the the kind of.

self you want to be identified as. Yeah. Not necessarily good. Uh, it's much. better to blaze your own trail, make. your own version. But I kind of I get. it. The one that's just not good at all. is the downward comparison, which is. putting someone down to show that you're. not like them at all. Yeah, that's not a. good thing to do. Uh, and again, all of. this um convey like to convey all this. stuff, you got to have pretty good. cognitive empathy and pretty good self.

monitoring. M uh you got to be able to. read the room, read social cues, regulate your emotions. And again, I. think this is why uh people with like a. narcissistic personality disorder may. have a harder time, may have more. difficulty doing stuff like this for. sure. Another break at 40 minutes in. Let's take our second break. All right, we'll be back. This is going to be a. little beefy, guys, but we're into it. Learning stuff from Joshua and. child. Stuff you should know.

[Music]. Okay, Chuck. So, um, just real quick. before we keep going on, uh, it's worth. mentioning that forming an online. identity is essenti it's like a whole. new can of worms. Yeah. As far as. sociology is concerned, we just couldn't. do it before. And it allows you to do. things, try on new things in ways uh,

that we it was just impossible to. previously. Yeah, for sure. But that. Yeah, that's a that could be a shorty or. something on its own, huh? Uhhuh. For. sure. Uh, should we talk about. authenticity though a little more? Yeah, because again, this is everybody wants. to be viewed as authentic and just the. fact that you've realized now that. you're performing at all times can make. you feel like you're not authentic, but. we're here to tell you you're still. authentic. Yeah, for sure. Um, there. have been researchers that uh I mean, it. kind of depends. You can there are a lot. of ways to uh um I don't like saying.

skin a cat anymore because to to tackle. the cat. No, there's a lot of ways to. pet the cat. We're not we're not saying. skin the cat anymore. I don't know. I mean, it just occurred. to me that's pretty horrific thing to. think about. Yeah, I don't know where. that came from, but sure either. I guess. I can get on board with that. All right. There's a lot of ways to pet a cat. Actually, there's only one way, and. that's with the grain, but anyway. Uh, how about skin your knee? Sure. There's. a lot of ways to skin your knee like a. 54 year old 54y old wrecking his new BMX.

bike. Exactly. Uh some people say. there's a real distin distinction. between self-presentation. uh which is like the the influence that. you're feeling by pressure and the. effort that you're putting out and then. self-expression which is your authentic. self. But there are psychologists or I'm. sorry, yeah, I guess psychologists in. this case, a guy named Barry R. uh. Schlinker who says that actually. self-presentation is everyone does it in. all social interactions. Like even if. you're married, um you're influencing.

each other and behaving in a certain. way. Uh it may not even require like. attention and probably doesn't if you're. married. Uh and it but it doesn't mean. you're being inauthentic if you're still. doing that kind of within your marriage. No. And um even like within yourself, like when we did the inner dialogue. episode, we we talked at some point. about how even when you're talking to. yourself, that inner voice is often. shaped by external forces. And some.

sociologists say, yeah, even it goes. even that far. That's how far um the. self is shaped by these scripts and. these performances and everything that. even when you're alone, you still might. find yourself engaging in some. performance or another. Yeah. Uh and and. the stuff that we feel like is. automatic. And you kind of touched on. this earlier is maybe not automatic. You. may not even realize it. This is stuff. that you've been practicing your whole. life. Uh I think anyone who's ever had a. kid has seen that kid like practicing.

faces in the mirror. Uh there's some I. mean a very tropey movie scene is. someone who uh practices a scene in the. mirror of like interacting with someone. like oh let me get that chair for you. and practicing a smile. Um I mean Nathan. Fielder has a whole show about this. called the rehearsal. It's fascinating. Man I love that guy. Are you watching. the new season yet? No. No. Um is that. the one that's an actual like it's. fiction? No. No. Uh that was the one he. did with um Emma Stone. This is the.

rehearsal season, which is he sets up. these elaborate rehearsals for everyday. life. Okay, you should check out season. one and then just steamroll into season. 2. It's fascinating sociological stuff. Nice. I definitely will. Yeah. Um, do. you ever rehearse what you're going to. say? I know you rehearse like what. you're doing next. Um, like if you're. cooking something, you've said that. before, but do you ever like practice in. your head what you're going to say? Like. even mundane stuff like what am I going. to say to this convenience store clerk.

when I go to check out? No, all that. stuff is pretty innate for me. That's. very lucky. But again, maybe innate from. years and years of practice. Yeah, it's. possible. Or maybe you were just born. with it. Maybe it's Maybelline. So you mentioned um the automatic stuff. that that is essentially breathing. Like. if you look at how it's how Shank. Schlanker describes it, he's describing. the same thing as breathing. like it's. just that automatic. Um, and that. automatic mode can be in a like high.

gear or low gear. And typically if. you're backstage hanging out with your. friends, embarrassment, again, the. driver here is em is preventing. embarrassment, preventing from. embarrassing yourself, preventing. um embarrassing other people or making. them feel embarrassed by association. Like you're preventing embarrassment. And one of the reasons why uh it's. easier to hang out with people in your. backstage mode is because the stakes are. low. If you embarrass yourself, it.

doesn't matter nearly as much as if you. embarrass yourself, you know, if you pee. your pants in a job interview. Yeah. Although the funny ironic thing. for us is, and I believe anyone that. performs on stage, literally backstage. sometimes can be some of the most. anxious when people are sent back there. like, you know, oh, the company wants to. send back these strangers you don't. know. I hate that. Like that's that's. the almost the the height for me of. like, oh boy, here I got to turn turn on. the chuck, you know. Yeah. And I just.

want to apologize for the group of City. Bank card holders from like 10 years ago. who we had a meet and greet with and it. was very awkward. So sorry guys. We. never really got to say sorry. That's. why we don't do meet and greets anymore. It's just Yeah. We just want to be. backstage with our homies. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so, uh, there's also we we can. also automatically go into a much, um, more performative mode, uh, when the. stakes get a little higher. Yeah. But. either way, it's still automatic. So,

Schlanker is like, "Nope, we're really. kind of performing almost at all times.". And then there was a a scholar of gender. named Judith Butler. And by was I mean. is. And um Judith Butler said everything. about you is shaped by by sociological. forces including including gender. That. that people learn how to behave um. according to what society says their. gender is um or what's expected of that.

gender. and uh that that that's just how. we learn to behave certain ways. according to gender. Yeah. I mean, I'm. sure there are plenty of grown men who. have a story where they're like, "When I. was in the third grade, I played with. dolls and I got made fun of and because. that wasn't the socially acceptable, you. know, masculine construct." And from. that day forward, I started doing things. to where I fit in a little more on the. playground. And that shapes how they.

are, you know, decades later sometimes. even. Yeah. It carried over from the. playground into the rest of their life. Yeah. And this stuff is all changing for. the better, I think. But it's still it's. not like it's been eradicated, you know? Yeah. And speaking of gender, too, I. wondered if you know how some people are. just deeply offended by people who are. gender fluid, like to the point where. you're like, what? You don't even know. this person. Why do you hate this so. much? It made me wonder like if if the. person who's so offended by it is upset.

because that other person is flagrantly. violating a social script and it's. making them and other people. uncomfortable. And it that brings up a. further point too. Who's which is more. valuable? That person's authentic self. that they're gender fluid or the comfort. of everybody else, the strangers around. them. Which one is more valuable? Who. should win out in that case if there's a. conflict like that? Uh absolutely. Uh I. mean sadly stuff like that is being. literally litigated but also the idea of.

changing social norms and you know if. you're not uh rolling with the changes. that are happening in society you may. find yourself on an island of uh. inacceptance and loneliness. Um but that. may be fine with you because you may. want to be like no things were better. the old way. At the same time too, you. can't change social norms without. violating them. They tend to just kind. of stay static. And to make them. dynamic, they have to be violated. And. anyone who's seen the movie.

Pleasantville knows that that can turn. out pretty good. You may end up in color one day. Man, that was a good movie. Yeah, that was. pretty good. I haven't seen that in a. while. Uh yeah, I saw it a couple years. ago. I watch it every couple years. Oh, okay. I've only seen it once. Oh, you. should keep just buy the DVD. Go old. school. All right. I mean, there's a lot. of movies that kind of dance around this. stuff like The Truman Show and just, you. know, I feel like this is just rife. ground for comedy and drama. I agree, Chuck. Uh, rife, ripe, ripe,

purple. Uh so you know I mentioned neurode. divergence earlier and just sort of my. and and I you know when I was doing this. research I had that awakening of like. yeah I've been much more um cognizant of. that kind of stuff as I've gotten older. and that stuff is more uh in the. forefront and diagnosed more and more. about like understanding that hey that. person that I think is like man read the. room why are you acting like that they. they may have something going on uh.

neurode divergently there there may be a. genuine mental illness there. Uh. Gooffman argued that if you have a. mental illness or um any sort of thing, a disability or if you're unhoused or. you're you're obese or a drug user, that. all just lumps you in as a as a as a. thing. Uh I mean a stigma, which we're. going to talk more about in a second. basically. But um and it ends up sort of. creating the symptom of that thing just. because you're put in that box. Yeah.

And so anybody who's who has a social. stigma like you just mentioned, you. rattled off that list, they're uh what. Gooffman called discredited. They don't. have they're not they have less value. according to society. And if you this is. where he developed that empathy from. researching this stuff. I bet uh. especially based on something like. someone's ethnicity or whether they're. handicapped or whether they're homeless. or whatever that that the idea that they. have less value socially speaking in in.

this in this sense um is totally unfair. because the social norms that we create. are generally arbitrary. Yeah. Yeah. For. sure. um and and not all cases, but um. you impression management is is a is a. tool that people can use to get over or. hide those stigmatized features. Uh I I. mean we can't get super into code. switching, but that could be a a pretty. interesting short stuff to accompany. this, I think. Right. Um that is the.

idea. And it's not um um specific uh to. the African-American community, but it. is uh if if you talk to a group of. African-Americans in in the United. States today or you know for many years. now, they will say no, code switching is. how we get by in white America. basically. Uh and that's the idea that. you may change the way you talk when. you're around white people or change the. way you act uh than you normally would. when you're in, you know, around your. family and friends or your own. community. And that's a that's a big big.

thing. Yeah. And uh that's a great. example of it. You could also be like, "My um last name sounds pretty ethnic. and I want to change it so that people. call me back for job interviews." Um. there's a lot of stuff you can do. So. you're not you're covering your stigma. So you're not an automatically. discredited person, but according to. Gooffman, you're discreditable. If. you're found out, you will be. stigmatized. So, it's just a ter it's a. terrible situation all around just to. stigmatize groups based on arbitrary.

social norms. I hate it. Yeah. I I. remember in elementary school, I'm not. going to name her name name because I. don't know if she would want this out. there, but there was a a girl from uh. you know, an Indian-American girl in our. school that came back after a summer. with an Americanized first name. And so, she was that from fourth grade till. senior year in high school when we. graduated together. and I lost touch. with her and uh like five or six years. ago, my good friend in Boston um said, "Oh, well, so and so's in town." I said,

"Oh, is she going by that name now. again?" And she went back to her, you. know, she grew up a little bit and was. like, "No, that is that's my name. That's my Indian name." Yeah. And it. just made me feel really good that that. she reached that point, you know, good. for her. Yeah. It was great. So, at you. know, the furthest end of this um I. guess spectrum is uh autism. And we've. talked about autism here and there, but. uh a lot of times uh if you have autism, you might have difficulty responding in. what people might consider an. appropriate way in a social situation. And uh masking is is a big can be a big.

part of self-presentation when it comes. to people with autism. Yes. But um. there's autism researchers Amy Pearson. and Kieran Rose and they make uh they go. to great pains to basically say masking. is different than impression management, right? Impression management is. something everyone has to do. Masking is. specific to typically neurode divergent. people to where they are protecting. themselves by pushing down their actual.

identities and hiding it at all costs. because they're afraid of being. stigmatized because they've been taught. over the years that that's not they're. not acceptable as they are. And so those. are those are two really different. things even though they seem pretty like. they have a lot in common. Yeah, for. sure. And masking, you know, there are. all kinds of people who mask. We talked. about that in the. uh sociopath episode once again and got. emails from people. They're like, I'm a. sociopath and I put on a big performance.

so people don't know that. Yeah. Yeah. They're just always walking around like, I love you, man. Right. Yeah. Um, just. one note about autism, which obviously. deserves its own episode, still coming. down the pike one day. Don't worry about. that. But you were talking about just. kind of learning as you get older, you. know, that that you can't just you can't. just make assumptions about people based. on their ability to interact socially. Yeah. If you want to develop a a.

familiarity and empathy for people with. autism, I think you could do a lot worse. than starting with um Love on the. Spectrum. All seasons, Australian. version and American version. I think. that is very sweet because that is like. the fifth time you've recommended that. show to people. People need to watch the. show. It's so great. This season in. America deserves an Emmy. It's a. masterpiece. I've still never seen it. You really. should. I I think you'd love it. All. right, so I guess Chuck, since I uh did.

my uh every 10th episode mention of Love. on the Spectrum, it's time for listener. mail. Uh hey guys, I love the show. This is. about popcorn, by the way. Okay. Um just. finished the podcast on popcorn. It. reminds me of a segment I saw years ago. on Alton Brown's Good Eats, uh Alton. Brown Atlanta. And I uh did a little. work on that show back in the day as a. props guy. Nice. Uh while not directly. related to popcorn and Alton was a good.

dude to work with, by the way. Nice. Uh. while not directly related to popcorn in. this particular episode, the show's. resident food anthropologist related a. factoid on Montazuma's revenge. Uh they. thought Monizuma's real revenge was. allowing the conquering Spaniards to. return to Spain with maze without the. knowledge of niximalization which. resulted in widespread uh pelagra or. pelagra. Mhm. causing dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, and eventual death. due to a lack of essential nutrients. nycin and tryptophan in their diets. Uh.

nixalization is a traditional. messamerican process used to prepare. maize and other grains for consumption. involving cooking the grain in an. alkaline solution, typically lime water, which then allows for the outer. paracarp, the skin, to be easily. removed. The process significantly. improves the digestibility and. nutritional value of the grain. And that. is from Bob. Bob, that was a great. email. Yeah, a top-notch one. I'm just. going to go ahead and say it. Agreed. Uh, if you want to be like Bob and send.

us a really interesting top-notch email, we love that kind of thing. You can send. it off to stuffodcast@. [Music]. iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know. is a production of iHeart Radio. For. more podcasts, iMheart Radio, visit the. iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or. wherever you listen to your favorite. shows. [Music].