How Styrofoam Works | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is a good oldfashioned. root and tootin wholesome down home. hour of fellowship with stuff you should. know. Wow, you sound like the coolest. youth director in in the building. You. nailed it, Chuck. You totally nailed it.

That's right. I'm also the only youth. director in the building right now. That's right. I had to uh I had to hang. up my spurs. Yeah, you got run out on a rail, didn't. you? They were like, if there's one. thing that's certainly not cool, this. youth director's in their 50s, so you're. you're out, right? I'm still in my 40s. So, it's kind of like David Bowie said, don't trust any youth director over 50. That's right. Uh, you know, he also sung. about styrofoam. No, he didn't. No, I.

thought I could get you. No, I could see. it. I mean, like it was when Bowie was. Bowie, it was Styrofoam was still this. Amazing Wonder product, but I I got to. say, Chuck, I feel like in the last. decade or so, maybe it's started to get. kind of a bad name. I think you're. right. Uh, and we're going to I I mean. we're going to talk about the science of. it all, how it's made, and clear up some. misconceptions and reinforce some uh. conceptions. Uh, but the first thing we should.

probably clear up, and big thanks to. Livia, by the way. She knocked another. one out of the park. Yep. Uh, is that. styrofoam is a brand name. And Le uh. Leia Livia is keen to point out that. it's not just like, you know, band-aid. or Kleenex. like this one actually. matters because the styrofoam that you. and I think of uh and most people. probably think of as like you know what. what to go container or or old school. coffee cup or uh to- go coffee cup might. be. Yeah, that's actually not styrofoam.

That's technically something called EPS. expanded polystyrene. Whereas the brand. name styrofoam is extruded polystyrene. and that's mainly just like used for. insulation and you know cut into big. boards and stuff like that, right? And. you're like, well, what's the big deal? They're actually basically exactly the. same products. They have slightly. different properties, but it's all the. same raw materials, very similar. production processes, and the the final.

product is for all intents and purposes. the same. The big difference is the. styrofoam is used for years and years. and years and years. Like once you put. it in to to insulate a radiant heat. floor, um you're not going to tear that. up after a couple of days and throw it. in the dump. With the other stuff, that. expanded polystyrene, the stuff we think. of as styrofoam, that's the stuff we use. once for a few minutes and just throw. away and get another new one. And that's.

posing a a bigger and bigger problem as. as time goes on. That's right. Unless. you're at my house, then Emily collects. every bit of styrofoam and drives it to. the specific styrofoam place. Charm. Uh. yeah, which still may not be recycling. it. Oh, no. Really? Oh, I don't know. I. mean, I think Charm does the right. thing, but I just I don't know. I I just. think so much of that stuff is dubious. once you drop it off. Like, who who. knows what even happens to it? Yeah. And. I don't mean that in a conspiracy-minded. way. I just mean that as we'll see.

recycling styrofoam, there's just not a. lot of reason to do it if you're. styrofoam people cuz you can just make. it again so cheaply. It's true. Uh and. for those of you Yeah, it is sad for. sure. Uh and for those of you outside of. the Atlanta area, Charm is the one. recycling center in the entire metro. Atlanta area where you can take. styrofoam. Stands for the Center for. Hard to Recycle Materials. Yeah. I mean, God bless Emily for doing all that. because I certainly wouldn't. I know.

it's a it's a haul. It's it's not really. conveniently. neither is saving tons and tons of. styrofoam to go to charm once a month or. whatever, but she does it. So, she's, you know, she does the right thing. So, let's talk about all this stuff because. I find it pretty fascinating. There's. some science involved. There's some. environmentalism involved. There's some. corporate tom foolery involved. I'm. excited about this one. Well, I'm glad. Good. Well, I'm going to kick it off. because styrofoam Well, let's start. We're talking about polystyrene and.

polystyrene is a form of styrene and. styrene occurs naturally in a lot of. different plants. It's just kind of part. of the ecosystem, but it was first. distilled out um in I think 1839. Yeah. By a German pharmacist. I'm going. with Edward Simmon in German, you know. I don't know. Simone, that. sounds French. Yeah, that doesn't sound. very German. I mean, just call him Eddie. Simon. Eddie Simon. In 1839, he was a.

pharmacist who got his hands on a sweet. gum tree from America, which was. probably very exotic in Germany at the. time, and he got styrene out of there. And he figured out how to take styrene. molecules, which are a monomer, and put. a bunch of them together to make a. polymer. And what he got was a rigid. plastic solid. what we're talking about. is a type of plastic. And he's like, I I. can't do anything with this. And just. moved along. Yeah. And it stayed that. way for close to a hundred years, like.

90 years or so. And finally in the. 1930s, uh again, a lot of stuff comes. about because they're trying to figure. out some sort of military use for. something. And that was the case here. Uh as we were, you know, between wars, uh the military was like, "Hey, how can. we how can we use this stuff?" um the. literal brand name styrofoam which again. is the XPS the the stuff that's you know. used in rad flooring and like wall. insulation and stuff like that that was. invented a couple of times uh the first. time by a Swedish inventor named Carl.

Muners who developed it in the 30s but. again didn't have a lot of practical use. for it and then DAO came along uh the. the DAO chemical company during World. War II and they had an engineer uh. engineer named Ray uh McIntyre who said. uh I'm looking to try and get a. synthetic or I guess he was charged with. trying to develop a synthetic substitute. for rubber. Yeah. He was facing 5 years. for it. Yeah. Uh to use as a flexible. insulator. And he combined styrene with.

isobutilene. And what he got was something he didn't. expect which was this very airy uh the. isobutilene formed bubbles in the. styrene. So it was you know what we. think of as styrofoam. This super light, very airy, very insulating, waterresistant, flexible material. Yeah. So, imagine taking something like. imagine taking a CD jewel case because. that's polystyrene. and chopping it up into little tiny. pellets and then you're messing around. with it and and adding isobutilene and.

all of a sudden those pellets just turn. it into little foamy balls. The exact. same thing that if you have a very. lightweight bean bag chair, it's full of. those. It's poly polystyrene foam. That's the that's the basis of the whole. thing, right? These little tiny pellets. And he must have just been as surprised. as the day is long. Yeah. Well, Da was. certainly surprised and delighted. Uh. and they were like, "Hey, let's just. start manufacturing this stuff. We got. plenty of things we can do." And. somebody said, "Uh, wait a minute. There's this other guy named Carl Muners.

who already developed uh you know, and. has patented this concept." And Dow. said, "Great, let's just write him cut. him a check and now we can patent um. capital S styrofoam." And they did so. And they started saying, "Hey, you know, we can build like floating docks out of. this stuff." And there's all sorts of. marine uses basically because it floats. really well. Yeah. Cuz that extruded. polystyrene, the actual styrofoam brand. type, that is very water resistant. It's. extremely lightweight. It's very. buoyant. So, it just automatically made.

sense to apply it to different like. water-based situations, right? Yeah, for. sure. Um, as far as the stuff that we. think of as styrofoam, uh, around the. same time in the 1930s, a German, uh, company called IP Farbin, who I know. we've talked about them before several. times. They're the ones who created the. gas that was used in the gas chambers. Ah, okay. They they've come up a time or. two. Not they don't have a great. reputation these days. No, I know. We've. definitely talked about them a few. times, but they uh were developing uh.

the EPS, the polystyrene foam, the stuff. again that we think of as styrofoam uh. like you know the cups and the to-go. containers and all that stuff. And both. sides uh in World War II started saying, "Hey, this stuff is super light and. super insulating. Uh works good as a. shock absorber. Uh we can use it in. various parts to make them lighter. So. let's get going with it." Yeah. The. thing is, I guess it's part of the. extrusion process. It essentially is.

only made in board form, long. finish boards, right? Kind of like it. looks like drywall, but it's foam. If. you've ever been to a a do-it-yourself. hardware store, and they have like big. big rectangles of foam, that is. styrofoam ver sty. It's it might not be. styrofoam brand, but it's that exact. same thing, right? And there's not that. many uses to it, but the stuff it does. do like um block out heat, insulate is.

another word for it, it does really. really well, right? So the the XPS is it. has like some limited applications. the. EPS, the stuff we think of like the. styrofoam cups and all that stuff that. has like a limitless applications. because you can take that stuff as part. of the production process and push it. into a mold and mold it into any shape. you want. And they definitely did that. in the postwar.

era of prosperous um better living. through chemistry. U that styrofoam was. a big a big star of that at first. Yeah. And you know it you you can probably. name any sort of uh insulation. application that it was used for. Uh. everything from you know ice cream uh. containers like you know when you go to. to taste all the ice cream and then. finally settle on one. Those big coolers. those are lined with thick styrofoam. Uh. they used them for Christmas ornaments. because they were super light and won't.

weigh down a tree. Right. uh all kinds. again of marine applications. uh you know buoys uh floating docks in. boats again you can mold it however you. want uh but you know the styrofoam. coolers that you know you pick up at the. gas station because you just have a. hankering for cold beer and you're on. the road you want to drink and drive. smart just kidding uh but those that you. see in the convenience store those. started popping up in the 1950s uh but. we didn't see the cups until the 1960s.

right Yeah, apparently Chick-fil-A was. one of the first um restaurants to adopt. styrofoam cups for to-go stuff, right? Um that was in in 1960, I think. Yeah, right on the nose from what, the Dart. Manufacturing Company of Michigan. Yeah. So, Dart Manufacturing got into this and. they got into it so heavy that they. actually ended up changing their name to. Dart Container Corporation. And they're. one of the leading companies or leading. producers of what you would consider. styrofoam containers. Yeah. Um so they.

were the ones that started producing. this, started kind of getting it out. there like, "Hey, you know how you don't. like your customers sitting around. taking an hour and a half to drink their. Coke?" Yeah. Buy one of our styrofoam. cups. They'll just get right out of your. hair and somebody else can come in and. patronize your restaurant. Right. So it. caught on pretty quick. Um I think. 7-Eleven was the first chain to actually. start using um styrofoam cups for. coffee, which as we'll see was a bad. idea right out of the gate. Yeah. Um and.

by the 70s it was like anywhere you went. and got coffee, it came in a white and. again I'm sorry I realize I keep using. the word styrofoam, you couldn't do any. different than I am right now trying to. talk about this. It's impossible. Um but. they that that just became the standard. for this whole thing. like a a a. styrofoam cup. That's what your coffee. came in until Starbucks came along. Yeah. I mean, for decades basically. Uh. and then Starbucks did lead the charge. to sort of, you know, get rid of that.

And then, you know, a bunch of people. followed suit thankfully. Uh but, you. know, when fast food came along and. takeout food uh got more um popular, obviously that's going to grow grow grow. the styrofoam business. Uh I'm I'm very. glad Livia included this cuz I would. have if she wouldn't have and you. probably would have too. Mhm. But if you. grew up a kid in the '8s, then you. remember the uh McDonald's McDt. Y uh if. you don't remember, I think we've. mentioned it before, but it was the idea. was they're like, "Hey, no one wants all.

this hot droopy lettuce and steamy. tomatoes on their hamburgers. They want. that stuff to be cold and they want. their burger to be hot and they want to. do it like you do at home is you add. that stuff right before you put it in. your mouth for the right mixture." And. that's what the MC DLT was. That was not. only an offending uh styrofoam. container, but it was a double. Uh cuz. you had one side that had you keeps the. hot stuff hot and the cool side cool. That's right. And none other than. Seinfeld's own Jason Alexander sang and. danced in a TV commercial in the 80s.

extolling the virtues of the McDt. container itself. Yeah. Wearing a skinny. tie. I think he's wearing a a blazer. with the sleeves rolled up. even maybe. probably pushed up like he he stinks of. 1985. Yeah. The thing about the McDt. container and Yeah. If you don't know. what we're talking about, just go look. it up. Um once you took the top off, you. could actually sm like close the bottoms. together and put your sandwich together. like that using your styrofoam container.

for those who were like really good at. it. Yeah. Yeah. See, I don't know. I. never ate that because that wasn't my. jam, but it seemed like it would just. kind of not do a very great job of that. Yeah. No, a McD never passed my lips. either because of the L and the T. But I. have to say one of the things that makes. me really nostalgic for my childhood is. looking at old styrofoam McDonald's. containers. Yeah, that it's hard not to. just see that that yellow uh.

container with all the M's all over it. Yeah. And not pine for it, but just, you. know, just like nostalgia does. Definitely takes you back. What what. knocked me out is, as we'll see, it. wasn't until 1990 that they stopped. using those things. Yeah. Uh, and we'll. get to, you know, how it's been sort of. weeded out here and there, but it's. still a booming industry. I think last. year worldwide there were 15.2 million. total tons of polystyrene produced. Uh, and about 60% of that is in the. Asia-Pacific region. Uh apparently um it.

it's it's a growing thing but it's. growing much slower in Europe and North. America than it is in uh industrializing. areas around the world. Right. Most of. it goes in the packing industry. I think. a third of it um is used by packaging. industry. Those um packing peanuts were. invented by a guy named Robert E. Holden. back in 1965. Household appliances uses another. quarter of it. I didn't understand that. I think some of it is packing materials. You know, you have to pull all those.

boards of styrofoam out of your new. refrigerator. Yeah, I think it's also in. some of the units like like in a washer, aren't there like big chunks of. styrofoam? Is it just like air uh take. up air space? I think that's part of it. And then also like in that that same. fridge, there's like around the dials. and controls, they'll use some for. insulation. And they don't actually. insulate the fridge with it because you. can't create an airtight seal between. two boards, but they they do use it in. other places in the fridge where you.

don't need an airtight seal. Well, I. think this is off to a capital start. Mhm. Uh shall we take a break and um let. you take over? Sure. I think that's a. capital idea. All right, we'll be right. back. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

stuff you should know. Okay, Chuck. So, we're back and you said. that um I would be taking over and since. I'm taking over, I'm in charge and I'm. delegating it to you. [Music]. I can start this part, but you know when. to come in because it's part of, you. know, it's chemistry and that's famously. the only class I ever failed. I'm just. fascinated by it. So, yeah, this this. works out just perfectly. That's great. Uh, if we're talking about styrene. today, uh, another name for it is vinyl. benzene because it is a vinyl as we'll.

see. Uh, it does not come from a plant. like uh Eddie Simon used back in Germany. in the in the 1830s. Uh the modern. process is starts with um you know it. comes from petroleum products these days. and specifically a couple called benzene. and ethylene. Uh they're combined with a. catalyst called aluminum chloride to. eventually produce ethylbenzene. You get that in a gas state, process it. at a high temperature with another. catalyst. It's a process called. dehydrogenating.

Uh and finally you have your styrene. Yes, styrene is C8 H8. lots of carbon, lots of hydrogen together. Yeah. And um. in that styrene molecule, there are. carbon atoms that have a double bond. between them, right? Which means that. they can share one. So when you take. styrene, a monomer, and put a bunch of. them together to create a polymer, one. of those um double bonds kind of opens. up and connects to another one and. another one, another one, it forms a.

carbon chain, right? Mhm. But if you. look at the I don't know what it's. called, but like the chemical drawing, you know, of like the molecule with the. lines and the C's and the H's and. everything. Yeah. I feel like in most. movies that's rendered 3D, so you can. zoom all zoom it around and stuff, right? This is more like the written out. shortorthhand that I'm talking about. I. know what you're talking about. Yeah. I. don't know what mine's called, but. whatever that is for the um polystyrene. If you look at it, it's a nice little. carbon chain, but then there's these. like medallions dangling off of them.

Those are called phenyl groups. And. because of those things, the the. polymers can't form a really nice. crystalline structure, right? Which. means that you could it's see-through. It's not particularly thick. It's. brittle, so it can break. And it's not. flexible very much, right? Um, and I was. like, well, wait a minute. Crystal you. think about is already see-through, but. as far as chemistry goes, the more. crystalline a structure is, the tighter. the whole thing is put together. So, the.

thicker and less see-through it is. So, like steel is has a very crystalline. structure, even though, you know, I. think rose quartz when I think of a. crystalline structure, but that's wrong, wrong, wrong. Yeah. See, that's why I'm. not good at chemistry. It's not very. intuitive, is it? I No, but I mean, this. is pretty late in life. It's not like I. was a chemistry wiz in in high school. I'm not even sure if I took a chemistry. class in high school. Oh yeah. Yeah. I. got out of a lot of stuff. Never took. trig. Um how'd you get out of that. stuff? I I had my ways. Oh, okay. I.

won't ask any further. So again, if you. take the stuff, this polystyrene, you. don't have anything that even resembles. a foam cup. you have like what looks. like a bunch of pellets that if you mash. together, you would again create a CD. jewel case because that's exactly what. they do to create those. You have to go. add a couple extra steps to create. polystyrene foam. Yeah, exactly. And you. know, we said that that stuff was prone. to cracking and very breakable if you. came about in the CD jewel case era. Uh.

red solo cups, too, are also uh the same. thing. But uh you know those CD jewel. cases if you had one long enough is. going to have a crack in it. Oh yeah. Just you had to throw out the entire. thing. No, no, no, no. Uh it was almost. a badge of honor. Like look how long. I've had this thing. It's uh you can't. even see through it anymore. It's. cracked all over the place. You can't. even see Billy Joel's face, right? By. the way, well, I think we'll just follow. up with the Billy Joel listener mail, but he he announced he has a a medical.

condition and he's cancelling his tour. for now. So, it was very sad to see it. Oh, man. Kind of right after we talked. about him. I know. Jinx. Hopefully, he'll be uh he'll be okay, though. But. anyway, I'm sure he will be. Uh, so. these XPS boards that we keep talking. about, uh, the capital S styrofoam. that's used in insulation and stuff like. that. Mhm. Uh how they make that is they. melt those little beads that you were. talking about, those little granules, uh. add chemicals, one of which is a blowing. agent, and then they force that thing. through a dye, uh as in a DI as in like.

diecast metal type thing, right? And. then they're constantly pushing that. stuff through and it's melting it and. pressing it together. And the final. product, those boards of polystyrene are. really smooth. They're really thick. They're not very they they just look. really uniform. And the reason why is. because all of those cells, all those. polystyrene foam pellets that you use in. a beanag chair, they get pressed. together so tightly with so much. pressure and heat that they there's no.

space between them basically. Okay. With. expanded polystyrene, the stuff that you. make cups and containers out of, it's. it's slightly different. You take those. same pellets uh and like you said, there's a blowing agent in there. Both. kinds have a blowing agent, but they use. different ones. And the blowing agent is. this kind of gas that is put into in. little tiny bubbles into the little. polystyrene foam pellets. That's what. makes it foamy. But if you take those.

same pellets and you um expose them to. steam, they swell up because that. blowing agent suddenly boils and. vaporizes at very low temperatures and. they the pellets expand to like 40 times. their size and they melt together very. easily. And what you have now is. essentially the raw material for um. expanded polystyrene. That's why they. call it expanded, which you can make. everything from a coffee cup to uh. vintage Santa Claus door ornament face.

Yeah, exactly. Do you remember those? Oh, totally. I mean, that's another. nostalgic thing. I think I think you can. get them still on like eBay. There's a. lot of nostalgia around styrofoam if you. kind of really think about it if you're. a Gen Xer. But that I mean, that goes to. show just how what a huge part it was of. 20th century life. It really was. Uh. yeah, for sure. Um so we mentioned, you. know, those boards are really great at. insulating. Uh which is why they use it. in like siding sometimes and stuff like.

that or in ice cream coolers. Uh one. reason is because it is water resistant. Uh if you have an insulating material. that has moisture in it, that's no good. because water conducts heat really well, right? So that's one good thing. Uh but. they do degrade over time. Um the board, you know, that blowing agent will leak. out of those cells a little bit over. time. So, it's a little less insulating. and while it is water resistant, it's. not completely water resistant. So, when. it does um not resist a little bit of.

water, it has a really aka absorption. It has a really hard time getting rid of. it again. So, that just kind of knocks. it down over time, but even considering. depletion, it still has a really good. thermal resistance and is still a really. good insulator. Yeah, it's like twice as. um twice as good, I guess, than that. roll out um insulation that you can buy. Yeah. And I don't think we mentioned. early on, you know, they were they used. to put like foot thick cork walls. Yeah. And like industrial refrigerators and.

stuff and they could get that down to. like 2 in of styrofoam. So, it was. really useful. I I don't know if we said. this too, it's like really really cheap. to manufacture as well. Yeah, super. cheap. And so it sounds like just this. wonder product that's everything about. it is great, but here's where it goes. dark. Here's where the VH1 behind the. music. It's probably like 35 40 minutes. into the VH1. Mhm. Right before the. commercial break, they'll say, and. that's when things got dark. Uh because. of course, styrene is dangerous. Uh if.

you're just talking about health. problems, um central nervous system. problems, headaches, depression, fatigue, um obviously if you're. breathing the stuff in, it's no good. It's no good for your skin and your. eyes. And you might think, well, what's. the big deal? Because we're not. breathing that stuff in. But if you work. at one of these places that manufactures. it, you totally are. Yeah. And they've. followed um people who work in styrene. plants and found that the neurotoxicity. makes them kind of dull and a little. dippy. kind of like you're drunk and.

your reaction times are slower. Uh, and. we're talking styrene itself, the. monomer that's the basis of polystyrene. foam, right? Yeah. Um, it it's been. shown to cause birth effects, reproductive defects, um, cancer. Like. you said, it's it's it's a bad jam. Polystyrene seems to be not nearly as. dangerous. The problem is the way that. we make polystyrene, there's still styrene that can break off.

essentially from the polymer and float. around and get into your body and that's. that's no good. Yeah. I think they've. since the mid 80s they've found uh. styrene and samples of human fat tissue. Uh of course the uh public health. organizations are saying like they do. with everything like that like no it's. not enough to really worry about it. Everyone's got a little styrene in their. fat, right? Uh don't sweat it. Uh but in. 2018, it was it was bad enough um as a.

potential carcinogen that the World. Health Organization uh raised it from. possible carcinogen to probable. carcinogen. And I imagine it won't be. long till they're just like, can we all. just admit it's a carcinogen? Yeah, I'm. sure that the polystyrene companies are. fighting that last tooth and nail. Yeah. So, we should say that most of the um. most of the studies that have shown like. styrene is bad for you, like we said. looked at workers who um who work around. styrene, and we don't work around.

styrene. We're just podcasters. You. probably don't work around styrene. either. So, like you said, it's not it's. not like they're they're not clutching. their pearls over this or whatever, but. it does seem like this thing where the. more that we look at it, the more. problems we find from it and the more we. come to understand that actually there. there's probably more exposure to. styrene than we thought. Like if you. look across the board, um everyone will. tell you, anyone who knows anything. about polystyrene, I should say, will. say, "Do not microwave your polystyrene.

um to-go container." Yeah. ever, never. Just don't ever do it because they found. that that polystyrene can leech styrene. into your food and you eat that stuff. You don't want to do that. And there's. even types of containers, polystyrene. containers that that have like three. little wavy lines and says microwave. safe or microwavable or something like. that. And those supposedly you can. microwave your food with. No, because. what that refers to is the container.

will survive it. It has nothing to do. with whether or not there's going to be. chemicals leeching into your food. They're just saying this this container. won't melt in your mic. That's it. So, never ever ever do that. Just take the. extra step of dumping it onto a plate. for Pete's sake. Yeah. Uh for sure. And. you know, especially hot things, especially acidic things like oh, I. don't know, hot coffee. Uh they found. that, you know, that stuff can leech. into your body as styrene. Yeah. I think.

they said that it starts leeching out at. about 104 degrees Fahrenheit. 40 degrees. C. Not that hot. Yeah. And it's used. specifically to keep liquids and foods. hot, I guess, or or cold. But, you know, but hot is the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I. think it still can leech out when it's. even cool or room temperature, but heat. is where it really starts to jack up. Yeah. So, hey, if you get a salad and. it's in one of those stupid things, put. that in a in a nice ceramic bowl as. well, right? put it in a solo cup. No.

Uh there's a bunch of other um impacts. that it has specifically. environmentally. Um should we break? Are. we going to break? Okay. I feel like. that's a a a third act sort of thing. Okay. Well, man, I'm glad you caught me. cuz I was about to take off. All right. You're grounded. We'll be right back. [Music].

[Applause]. [Music]. stuff you should know. All right, since I rudely cut Joff Josh. off when he was trying to talk about or. Joff, that's a new a good new name. G E. O FF. Your favorite spelling of Jeff. Yeah, I but you have to say it like. Joff. If you're gonna go to the trouble. of spelling Jeff like Joff, you should.

say Joff. Anyway, I cut off Joff when he. started to get hot on the environment. And uh so I'm going to let you take it. away uh because the environmental. disaster is basically into three. categories, right? Yeah. Air pollution, um threats to marine life, uh and then. solid waste. Those are the the big three. environmental impacts we found that that. it it poses. Yeah. Uh the air pollution, you might be thinking like, well, I. don't I don't get it. Like it's just. blowing into the air. Uh it's in the.

manufacturing process. Those blowing. agents that we talked about used in. making both EPS and XPS. They for. decades and decades they were using. CFC's, chloro fuorocarbons. And then. everyone's like, "No, we can't use that. stuff anymore." So we stopped using that. stuff and they switched over to. hydrofluorocarbons. Mhm. Uh in this case. specifically HFC-134. Little A, but that stuff's awful, too. Yeah. It's a really powerful greenhouse. gas that traps heat 1 1430 times more.

efficiently than carbon dioxide. Man, that's a lot. They have they have other. stuff that's way worse than that, but. that's still not good, especially. considering how much styrofoam is made. every year, right? Yeah, for sure. But. so that's a problem with the extruded. version. Apparently the um expanded. version, it doesn't have nearly the same. problem because it uses a different. blowing agent. The best reason I could. come up with, and this is all. supposition, is that the extruded.

version keeps its blowing agent trapped. into its structure. Okay, that makes. sense. Yeah, that's why it uses a. different one than the expanded one. the. expanded one when its blowing agent. vaporizes it creates um I guess. essentially pockets that get filled with. air. So the blowing agent gets replaced. with air. So they use a much less. dangerous um or potent greenhouse. gas-wise gas. Uh pentane it's like 10. times more efficient at trapping heat. than carbon dioxide. So you know big.

whoop. So the big problem as far as air. pollution goes is with the expanded. version, the styrofoam version. Yeah, for sure. Uh you mentioned threats to. marine life. That's a pretty obvious. one. Uh because it's used so much out. there. Uh buoys again and like any like. boogie board or kind of floaty thing. that you're using. Um floating docks. that I mentioned a few times. Uh fish. boxes that hold the fish that you catch. when you're out at sea. Isn't that the. same thing as with that um 1957.

ice cooler? Yeah. Sometimes it's a good. point. But the problem with all this. stuff is that when a buoy is floating. out there that's made of styrofoam or. there's a floating dock, uh it's not. going to stay pristine. You know, it's. going to chip away and it's going to. degrade and it's going to start to float. away in little bitty pieces. Um birds. are coming coming along and eating that. stuff when it's floating on top. Um. it'll uh get heavier as it goes. It'll. attract other organisms that make it, you know, um not floatable, right? and. it will sink and then all of a sudden.

it's eaten uh in the water and on the. bottom of the seafloor by other marine. animals. Yes. Um and the reason why it. starts to break down like say if it's. part of your marina dock is because it's. exposed to sunlight and UV radiation of. different types break down polystyrene. Actually can break it down within a few. years as a matter of fact when it's. exposed to sunlight. The problem is is a. bunch of that stuff never gets exposed. to sunlight. We throw it away and it.

gets buried in a landfill, right? And. there are plenty of other, you know, part types of waste that are not great. to throw into a landfill, but they're. biodegradable. As far as we've known. until very recently, styrofoam is not. biodegradable. Yeah. It's only. chemically degradable, and it takes. centuries for it to chemically degrade. within a landfill. And because they're. so big and bulky, even though they're. very light, they're still usually in. large shapes, or they can be, they take.

up a lot of space in those uh landfills. So, they take up a lot of space and they. don't break down to to free up space for. again centuries, which someone pointed. out, I believe, that essentially every. um piece of styrofoam that was ever made. is still around in some shape or form on. Earth. Yeah. And that's not the kind of like. staying power that should inspire you. Right. Well, the thing something that. stuck out to me, Chuck, when you said. earlier about how um they're derived.

from petrol prochemicals. Uhhuh. The. fact that styrene is found in um. petroleum, petroleum is compressed. ancient plant matter, right? Yeah. So. that styrene that was originally in. plants is still around millions and. millions of years later in the petroleum. that we're extracting from the ground. That just goes to show you the kind of. staying power that thing has. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. Uh because of. all these problems, of course, there's. been uh many movements over the years to. to get rid of it. Um it depends on the.

state you live in probably or maybe even. the community that you live in, what. kinds of bans have been put into place. I think uh Berkeley, California, no. surprise, and SuffK County, New York, again, no surprise, were the first uh. communities in the 1980s to put a ban in. place for this stuff. Yeah. Uh 14. different states have enacted uh bans on. styrofoam. Um they don't always hold up. because you've of course you've got. these companies that are going to fight. them tooth and nail like you said fight.

them in court, right? Uh you've also got. city governments and aren't necessarily. going to enforce stuff too, right? Yeah. They tend to be very shy about getting. sued especially when their budgets are. kind of tight, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, if. you're a big bad plastic company, apparently Dark Container is is one of. the um the more aggressive players in. this in lobbying for styrofoam to stick. around. Um all you have to do is show up. and be like, you know, we would hate to. sue you guys into bankruptcy. It seems. like a really nice town. And that city's.

going to be like, I I don't even. remember the styrofoam ban you're. talking about. Yeah. Or we'd hate to. close down these warehouses that employ. people in your state. Right. Uh which is. what they did in Maryland. They uh. Maryland banned the foam and uh the Dark. Container Company shut down two. warehouses there. Uh employed close to. 100 workers and that is how they play. that game. Yeah, they did it in. California too in 2024. They put 175 of. their workers out of work and they. always say, well, it's because of this.

ban. From what I understand, these bans. don't affect like warehousing or. transportation of this stuff within the. state or outside of the state. It just. seems like it's a vindictive move. It. probably helps her bottom line, I would. imagine, in some way. I I guess I don't. know. But from what I from what I. understand, the the aggressive lobbying. that they engage in, it it I don't know. It seems like I mean, they really want. styrofoam to stick around and they're. fighting a tougher and tougher battle. each year now. Yeah. I think what I.

meant was I I I bet they're not uh. financially hurting their company by. shuttering these warehouses. No, I'm. sure not. I'm sure not. I'm sure if even. if they do, it's negligible, you know, to punish a state into submission. Uh there's also pressure campaigns. You. know, McDonald's was one of the early. ones uh in the 1980s and I guess uh if. they quit it in the 90s, it was kind of. fully in the 80s when people like human. beings would uh you know protest or just. sort of raise a ruckus over this stuff.

and they got together and there were a. few tries that like, hey, um, you. shouldn't worry about it too much cuz we. we do it this way. We only use this. much. Uh, they really wanted to hang on. to them, but finally, like you. mentioned, in 1990, they said, "All. right, we'll use paper." Um, and you. know, you should be housing that. cheeseburger the second it gets into. your car anyway, right? Yeah, pretty. much. I mean, just tell them to put it. in your hands without even a a paper. wrapper. Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're.

if you got to get it and you can't eat. it in your car, you have to carry it. somewhere, it's not going to be as hot. But, um I don't know. House I mean, housing fast food in the car is is a. rich tradition that needs to be upheld. For sure. Ever since there were cars and. ever since they were fast food. Yeah. How else are you going to find uh you. know, three-year-old French fries under. your car seat when you vacuum it? They. look exactly the same as they did the. day they got down there. They don't. taste quite the same, but they do look. like it, don't they? Yeah. So, um, a lot. of people say, "Okay, well, we got all.

this polystyrene and it does provide a. lot of, uh, benefits, even though it. seems like the health and environmental. benefits are kind of racking up against. it." Um, maybe there's something we can. do to to recycle it instead. And, uh, kind of at the outset, you were pointing. out just how hard it is to recycle this. stuff. And one reason why it's so hard. is because these are big, often times. bulky items, especially when you put a. bunch of stuff. I mean, you can attest. if Emily's collecting stuff. It's a. nightmare. Yeah. It It takes up a lot of.

space. Even though it's all light, you. could lift all of it with one hand, but. it takes up a lot of space, right? So, if you have a truck that is spending a. bunch of money on gas to haul. recyclables to a recycling center and. then they get paid for that load in. return, that styrofoam, I mean, they get paid by. the pound. So, that styrofoam takes up a. whole truck, but it does not add up to a. lot of money. So, no one wants to haul. this stuff. That's one problem. And that. problem also um belies an pro-styrofoam.

argument that you'll frequently run. into. And that is that it has a a small. carbon footprint because it's so light. It takes so little gas and uh fuel of. all kinds to transport it by ocean rail. truck. The problem is is you still have. that bulky thing. So you actually are. probably hiring more transportation to. move styrofoam stuff because yeah, it's. light, but it takes up a lot of space in.

the truck. So I think that that's kind. of a um an in disingenuous argument in. favor of styrofoam. I think you're. probably right. Uh another problem with. recycling it is uh a lot of the foams. will have pigments in them. They might. be colored or they may have flame. retardants uh that make it not as or. completely unrecyclable uh along with. food contamination. Uh and then like I. mentioned at the beginning just the the. cost of this it's it's pretty cheap to. make. So there's not a lot of incentives.

for company to try and uh recycle it. Uh. there's a little more promise in. upcycling it by breaking it down into. its various chemical constituents, some. of which have some pretty high value. But as far as recycling, it just doesn't. make a lot of cost-effective sense for a. company or a recycling firm, right? I. was reading a JStore Daily article on. this and they they profiled a um a. company in Oregon called Agilix and they. up uh upcycle styrofoam into um.

petroleum again. They turn it back into. to crude oil, which can in turn be used. for like jet fuel and other like really. high quality fuels. But that they're. definitely not they're in the minority. as far as recycling companies go. Yeah, for sure. Uh, another thing, if you're, you know, into helping the environment. and recycling and stuff like that, don't. don't be fooled just because you see the. little uh chasing arrows um recycling. symbol because that is on so many. things. Uh, you have to look at the.

number and then know what that number. means. Uh, and you know, you can look. all that stuff up, but uh the ones and. twos are are generally um although not. entirely consistently recycled, they. they have the best chance at being. recycled, but something with the number. six on it um it's probably not being. recycled. No, that's polystyrene's. number. And it like I mean for all the. reasons we just said it, like you said, it's probably not being recycled. And. apparently some environmentalists say. that whole chasing arrows um application.

for the plastics was basically made up. by plastic companies to make you feel. like right, oh okay, this thing can be. recycled. I don't I don't have to feel. bad about using it for 2 minutes and. then throwing it away. Yeah. Um, so. there are, like I said, up until very. recently, styrofoam was considered to be. nonbiodegradable. And there are not many. things, including plastics, that are not. biodegradable, right? They're starting. to find that there are some microbes out.

there that have an ability to break it. down. Apparently, they're found in the. guts of meal worms, wax worms, and some. kinds of insect larvae, and that these. things will feed on styrofoam, and they. will break it down so thoroughly that. you could actually eat these worms. afterwards. They're it's just. metabolized into harmless stuff. And. even the solid waste they excrete, they. just keep it in the soil and eat food. grown from the soil. The problem is is. this is a really new kind of revelation.

as far as I know and it takes a lot of. those things to break down styrofoam and. we're making way more styrofoam than. these worms can possibly handle. Yeah, for sure. Uh that the the size of that. worm farm would be tremendously large. Uh but you did find I mean boy you. texted me yesterday uh that something. can actually melt styrofoam. I'm going. to let you say what it is, but my. question, my friend, is does that is. there an application for that or is that. just a factoid? It's just something you.

can do like if you um I hate packing. peanuts and so I've done this before. with them, but it's it's a slog. So, probably people aren't going to actually. do it, but any organic solvent and in. particular acetone, that's the one I've. always used, can dissolve styrofoam into. basically nothing. Um, you can take an. entire bean bag chair worth of pellets. and melt it all down into nothingness in. a cup of acetone. It's really neat to. see. And oh, just like very slowly. adding it in. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Little by.

little. But it it doesn't take very long. for it to break down. It's not like. instantly dissolving, but it's not, you. know, days or anything like that either. And doesn't that create probably some. awful thing? I mean, you don't want to. chase that down out of the solo cup, right? No. I still have that mason jar. of acetone with styrofoam in it cuz I. have no idea what to do with it now. I. think you just bury it in the backyard. and forget about it. I'll just drop it. off at a number six recycling center. Oh, great. Uh, you got anything else.

about styrofoam? I got nothing else. Try. try and avoid it if you can. Yeah. You. know. Yep. Uh, since Chuck told you to. avoid styrofoam, obviously everybody, that means it's time for listener mail. That's right. Promise to Billy Joel. And. here we go. Uh from Levi in Hangzu, China uh was giving me a little bit of a. break when I when I bagged on uh one of. my favorite performer songs, We Didn't. Start the Fire. He said, "Chuck, you're. in good company because Billy Joel. himself has called We Didn't Start the.

Fire the worst musical thing I've ever. written." Uh calling out the simplicity. of its musical structure. Uh someone who. has only recently gotten into his music, but has personally ranked uh all of his. 117 studio recordings. Wow, you went. hard. Uh, I tend to agree. Fun song, but. it doesn't hold a candle to the rest of. the catalog. As for his best and. favorite, he's cited uh scenes from an. Italian restaurant. Great song. And you. may be right. Yeah, I know that one. Great song. Off of Glass Houses. Okay.

Uh, as two of his favorites. And if Josh. hasn't heard Miami 20 uh 2017, the one. you mentioned, make sure he starts with. the live version from the Songs in the. Attic album. Miles better than the. studio version in my opinion. Uh, keep. repping the piano man. And that is Levi. and Hangzu, China. And he sent a link to. the YouTube of the Howard Stern. appearance where Billy Joel called that. his worst musical outing. And he he he. was like, "The lyrics are fine." He. said, "I don't hate the song, but he. just said musically it's just very. simplistic and not my best work.".

I mean, I think everybody can basically. agree that. Yeah. But, uh, Mr. Joel, we. wish you uh, good health and recovery. You got a lot of fans uh thinking about. you and your family right now. Yeah. Um. that's great, Chuck. I think that uh. this Billy Joel saga should just. continue. Every third, fourth, fifth. listener mail should be about Billy. Joel, I think. I hope so. And you know, I didn't even mention the deep cuts, so. maybe we'll just uh surprise people here. and there with those. Yeah, just pay. them out slowly, man. Patience. Yeah.

Uh, if you want to be like Levi and. you're in China or anywhere else and. want to get in touch with us about Billy. Joel or anything else, you can send us. an email to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com. [Music]. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].