How Russia Shapes What the World Thinks | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeartRadio. >> [music]. [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. missing. We don't know where she is. It's possible. the Russians have her. [music]. At the very least, it's quite possible. the Russians have misled her in some way. or another, and maybe. >> [music]. >> they tricked her into leaving when it. was time to record. >> You cheeky boy.

Don't worry everybody, Jerry's just. really on vacation, but that was a very. clever setup. >> Oh. >> to this episode on. essentially on on Russian propaganda. >> Mhm. >> And how, you know, I think we all knew that like their. propaganda machine was big back in the. Cold War and stuff, obviously, but it's. it's a really big problem now, and has. been for a while ever since the advent. of the internet, and especially social. media. >> Yeah, because those two things they're.

wide open set up for people to. distribute misinformation, deliberate. misinformation. The Russians are far. from the only ones that do it. They're. just really, really good at it. And. they've been doing it for a long time. They I would guess they were probably. the first country to really start doing. this on like a a wide scale. But. I mean, as far back I think as 2010. or at least the 2000 Yeah, but like the. the 2010s at least, 2013 at the absolute.

latest the Internet Research Agency was. the first kind of famous one that. surfaced. And the whole premise back then and now. is to basically game social media, and use whatever you can, whatever like. weaknesses it has in like the entire. structure of it, to to confuse people, to sow discord and. disinformation and chaos and um. questioning what reality is. Um getting.

the media to start using words like. post-truth and stuff like that. That. kind of stuff, it might not have a. specific aim where it's like we want to. say get Trump elected. That's That was. part of this, too. Like that was a. Russian name as well. Or we want to um. stir America up over the border crisis. Just creating a climate where people. question what's real or what's true. That in and of itself is a huge triumph.

for these Russian operations that have. been going on for more than a decade. >> Yeah, I think that was one of the things. that chilled me most was it wasn't like. we really need to get people to believe. this one thing. >> Right. >> about uh Ukraine, uh let's say. Uh it's. more like no, let's just sow chaos and. confusion um to where you uh doubt what. you're reading. and you don't know what the truth is. anymore. And that's just like That's. That feels even scarier, you know? >> It does because of ultimately, eventually most people would be like.

it's not worth trying to get to the. bottom of this, you know? I'm just going. to stop I'm just not going to pay. attention anymore. I'm just not going to. care, you. >> Or I'll just share something because. like I read it. >> Yes, exactly. Sometimes on Reddit. >> Yeah. Good point. Uh all right, so maybe we. should jump back a little bit and talk. about um the IRA, uh not the Irish. Republican Army, but the Internet. Research Agency. >> Mhm. >> uh or the Russian troll farm as it might. you might know it better as. Uh that was.

founded in uh 2013. by guy that was a former criminal, uh. eventually a successful entrepreneur and. kind of uh higher-up uh oligarch in in. Russia and uh you know, confidant of. Vladimir Putin. And he also founded um you know, confidant for a while because he He. founded the the Wagner Group uh which. you may have read about in the news, the. Russian mercenary organization that. would eventually try and overthrow. Putin. >> Yes, do you watch The Agency on Prime?

>> No, I don't. >> It is magnificent. >> Yeah? >> It's one of the best spy shows of recent. times. >> Ooh, I love a spy show. >> guys liked Black Doves, right? >> Uh yep. >> This is at least on that caliber, if not. higher. Um Michael Fassbender's in it, Richard. Gere, Jeffrey Wright, um a bunch of. other very talented people, but it's all. like spycraft stuff. And it's it's. really worth it. They they just released. their second uh season,

and I've got three episodes left. I. started 2 days ago, and both seasons are. well worth watching. >> Okay, I did not watch Black Doves, actually. I thought you were talking. about the uh what's the Gary Oldman. show? Wild Horses? Something Horses? >> Um I don't know. I know the one you're. talking about. You watched that? >> Yeah, I watched that one. >> Is it good? >> Uh yeah, it's really good. I mean, Gary. Oldman's fantastic. Slow Horses. >> Slow Horses. I swear you watched Black. Doves, cuz Emily said she liked it. The.

one with um. >> She may have watched it. >> Bend It Like Beckham? >> Yeah, Keira Knightley. I didn't uh I. didn't see it. Emily may have watched. that without me though, cuz she she. loves that stuff. >> Okay, just watch them. Watch them both, but definitely watch The Agency. Um it. would it it's much more likely to be in. your wheelhouse if either one of them. are going to be. >> All right. >> Okay. >> So, back to the show. >> Oh, I know I brought that up. They. battle essentially the Wagner Group, but. it's called Valhalla in The Agency. >> Oh, okay. I got you.

>> Oh, sorry about that. >> That's okay. Everyone loves a good recommendation. from either one of us, I think. >> Yeah, I also I want to be clear here. This was not brought to you by Prime. We're not trying to manipulate you, or. propagandize you, or market to you. This. is just I watch it on Prime and it's on. Prime and it's so good that I just took. that time to share that with everybody. That's all. Exactly what it seemed like. on face value. And do you know why I. have to say that, Chuck? >> Oh, I don't know, Josh.

>> Because of stuff like. this operation that we're going to talk. about. >> That's right. So, uh the IRA that I. spoke of, the Internet Research Agency, that what they did and this is like. mid-2010s, they hired a ton of uh. you know, young people basically who. could speak English and who knew a lot. about politics uh to like, "Hey, why. don't you start a troll farm, you know, get on board this troll farm and just. create fake stuff, create fake news. stories, uh although I'm loath to even. even say those words together, uh fake.

social media posts, YouTube videos, eventually, you know, as you'll see what. would become like deep fakes and AI and. stuff like that, but this is before. that. >> Yeah. >> And while this was going on, uh. Sputnik and Russia Today uh or RT, um. these are, you know, I think legitimate. or at. one point were legitimate Russian news. outlets, right? >> Uh they were always backed by the. Kremlin. >> Oh, well, okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. But I yeah, I think that they were.

still they still had journalists and. stuff like that, but they were trying to. get the Russian viewpoint across to. Western audiences. >> Right. So, they started distributing. stories. uh around the world, um basically, like. we were saying, trying to get people to. like. uh. to believe whatever they wanted to them. believe at the time, like politically. >> Right. And um the 2016. United States election was a real big. kind of debut. They've been kind of at. it already, but the 2016 election, they.

really showed just how much they could. monkey with stuff or at at least the. potential of them monkeying with stuff. Uh and this is where that um the. allegations of um Trump colluding with. the Russians. This is what they were. talking about, unproven by the way, to. Rachel Maddow's great dismay. >> Right. >> Um Pizzagate. These They didn't. necessarily come up with these things, but they were able to amplify them. >> Yeah. >> and get people talking about them and. make people questioning what was what,

you know? Were the Democrats like really. keeping child sex slaves in the basement. of Comet Pizza in DC? Who knows? Maybe. you should take an assault rifle from. North Carolina and go find out. >> Yeah, exactly. So, once this start sort. of starts coming out and uh the. uh United States and you know, all over. North America and and Europe started. realizing what was going on, uh in February 2022 after the Russian. invasion of Ukraine, uh there started to. be a little bit action taken. The EU. banned Russian state media, uh including.

Sputnik and RT. Um other companies, Google News dropped them from. aggregation service. I think Google, Microsoft, and Apple uh all started like. pulling their apps. So, that sort of. started happening and then in '23 was. when uh that failed uprising against. Putin by the Wagner Group um happened. And the long and short of it is, after. all this, the IRA finally disbanded, but. this work continued among other groups. >> Yeah, this is this is a good example of.

the whack-a-mole that the West is. playing. The the um Russian internet. disinformation operations have the West. on our heels. Clearly, there's basically. no one who knows what they're talking. about with this stuff who would disagree. with that. The West still has not. figured out how to do it aside from. piecemeal um. responses like taking Russia Times app. off of the Apple. >> Right. >> market off of the Apple App Store, you. know? Like that's the kind of response.

we have to this still. And this has been. going on for more than a decade. And one of the reasons why it's so hard. to to do anything about it is because um. they use what the RAND Corporation. researchers Christopher Paula and Miriam. Matthews call a firehose of falsehood. Just put everything out there. It's not. It's not. It's not the quality, it's the quantity. that they focus on. >> Yeah, for sure. After. Crimea was annexed in 2014 and then.

obviously after. the invasion of Ukraine in February of. 2022, they really ramped up a lot of. messaging to try and get you know. sentiment. sometimes on their side but more a lot. more times like just against Ukraine and. what was going on. And this eventually would become known. as Doppelganger. But to be clear, Doppelganger isn't like it wasn't. Operation Doppelganger or there's not an. organization called Doppelganger. It's more of just sort of I think the.

media sort of misread that and labeled. it that but it's really just sort of. this method of. doing what they're doing and how they're. doing it. >> Yeah, to be specific it's a it's a way. of cloning dummy websites that look like. actual legitimate websites. The ones. some of the ones that they targeted were. Le Monde in France, their website, Washington Post in the US, The Guardian. in the UK. And they would essentially. just take they they would have their.

bots start sending links or putting. links all over the internet to basically. share, right? Hey, look at this crazy. article, right? The Washington Post. actually reported this so it seems like. it would be legitimate. And you would. click that and it would take you to a. different series of domains that got. smaller and smaller to where. if you were in the area they were. targeting, say you were in the United. States and you had clicked, you know, this thing to find out about whatever. this fake Washington Post thing was. saying,

it would um so would take you to this. fake website like washingtonpost.pm. >> Right. >> Different enough that that like you. probably wouldn't notice, but it's a. different domain name. And the the way. that they were able to get away with. this was through shell companies and. using shady kind of hosting services. around the world. And that that was Doppelganger. The that. technique that they used for getting. this stuff out. There is no operation.

like like this these these using bots or. creating like fake accounts on Facebook. or whatever. That wasn't Doppelganger. That is constant. It's so constant and. so embedded that there's no name for. that. Doppelganger was just the. technique of the way that they used the. infrastructure of the internet to. deliver misinformation for this short. period of time. >> Yeah, uh sort of one of the main. companies and we're we're not going to. go through all of these cuz it's a. little mind-numbing, but there's one. called the Social Design Agency,

which is a PR firm that started up in. 2022. founded by a political consultant who um. had you know that was. that was their business. So. you know they know exactly how to do it. >> Right. >> And the Russian government all of a. sudden was like, wait a minute. We would. love to hire you to do like all this. stuff. Um it's literally as of I think a. couple of years ago run by the Kremlin. >> Yeah. >> And directed by the Putin. administration. So they're kind of in. the middle of most of this Doppelganger.

activity. >> Yes. >> And you know like you said when you go. to one of these websites when you click. on the link if you're not paying. attention to the dot whatever and you. realize it's not you know. washingtonpost.com. it it looks like it. It smells like it. It acts like it for the most part. So. it's really easy to to fool people. >> It is. I mean if you really look closely and. you look with a skeptical eye you'll. turn up some stuff. I saw one example is. that. the US must not become the world's.

gendarme, which is police in French. [laughter]. Like the Washington Post would not use a. phrase like that, right? >> Yeah, but you have to know that. Like I. think they count on just fire hosing it. such where they're like, "Well, who. cares if most people don't? If we just. get this percentage of people, that's. great.". >> Yes, and even more than that, I feel. like going to the trouble of actually. creating the article on the fake website. is almost superfluous because so many. people on the internet just share that.

share. Like that headline, gotcha. Now I. think that this is going on. I'm not. even bothering to click into this. to read the actual article. All I need. is the headline because it got me juiced. up. >> Yeah, for sure. And of course they're. amplifying this through the bot farms, Russian social media bots, will post links and then there are more. bots that retweet these links. >> Mhm. >> I think I mentioned on the show I saw a. picture of a bot farm one not too long. ago. There was a big expose.

>> Were they all chewing grass? >> No, it was terrifying. It was like. a dude sitting at a desk on a computer. and there were a thousand cell phones. connected hardwired. >> Wow. >> to the computer and then there were. dozens and dozens of these guys with. hundreds and hundreds of smartphones. >> Wow. >> connected on a big wall. So when you see. how it actually works, like literally. connecting the phones to send the stuff. out and amplify it, it's just it feels. really dystopian and like scary. >> Yeah, I feel like it's becoming clear. that we're going to have to abandon the.

internet and come up with a new one. because this one got cooked. >> Agreed. Should we take a break? >> Mhm. >> All right. We're going to ruminate that. and I hope we're we can even come back. after we ruminate, but we'll be right. back, I hope. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. >> All right. So, I mentioned after the. invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, that's when things really ramped up. again. Uh they you know, a lot of these ideas. were. Um there was a a one group that launched. sort of like a Snopes-like site, but a. fake one. >> I know. >> Called War on Fakes. And it was designed.

to discredit Ukraine and support Russia, obviously. Uh and then another one. called. RRN, Reliable Recent News. Um which replaced Reliable Russian News. So, on one side you've got something. that says like, "Hey, this is reliable. news, so this is real." On the other. side it's like, "Hey, we we root out the. fake stuff, but it's fake." So, it's. almost like, you know, it's not almost. like they've got all their bases. covered. >> Yeah. I mean, if you pay too close. attention to this, you'll start bleeding. out of your ear, guaranteed.

>> Yeah. >> Um Doppelganger got its name um from the. EU's Disinformation Lab. Uh one of the. disheartening things to me, Chuck, was. figuring out that. the people who are tracking this stuff, there's not a government agency involved. anywhere. These are all like independent. NGOs that are dedicated to tracking. disinformation. >> Yeah, it's interesting. >> Journalists, like these are the people. doing the actual work, and then 7 years. later the government's like, "Oh, we.

we're going to have our Department of. Justice do something about this.". >> Right. >> So, that's where that's where. Doppelganger got its name from. I think. it um it's basically it suggests that. these are or it points out that like the. cloned sites, they're like doppelgangers. of the real thing. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Um. but the the war on Ukraine after the. invasion of Ukraine, they really ramped. up the misinformation um flood that was. coming. Like they targeted in 2024.

um and I think 2023, the they their main. targets were France, Germany, the US, the UK, and Ukraine. And essentially. what they were trying to do was to make. the people, the public in each of those. countries um lose support or turn on the. idea of supporting Ukraine so that. Russia could get them out of the Ukraine. business and Russia could just get back. to. trying to take over Ukraine as best it.

could. >> Yeah, and they you know, they did it in. a lot of ways. Obviously some ways were. just fake articles about like, you know, um stuff that Ukraine does uh or maybe a. fake article about uh that uh. whitewashes a Russian atrocity like the. uh Bucha massacre. Like that never. happened. >> Right. >> Uh but cleverly they're also going like. through celebrities and like faking. that, you know, Taylor like a real. influential celebrity like Taylor Swift. or Kim Kardashian um like fake messages.

where they're supporting uh or they're. criticizing America and Europe for. supporting Ukraine. Um or didn't you. find something about Oprah? >> Yeah, do you want to read that quote? >> Uh go ahead. >> Oprah says, "Supporting Ukrainians is. unacceptable. Their actions destroy. lives and societies.". >> Yeah, so, you know, especially if you're some. like young person who supports Taylor. Swift or Kim Kardashian, you're probably. you know, not even aware that this kind.

of stuff even goes on. All you're. thinking is like, "Well, Taylor Swift. said Ukraine deserves what's coming.". So, that's probably true. >> exactly right. That's exactly what. they're trying to do. >> Or or maybe not deserves what's coming, but like America this is what a big sort. of uh angle for them is. Um America first, like we shouldn't get. involved in this. Let Ukraine handle it. themselves. >> Right. And so, that is you just hit the. nail on the head as far as why. Republicans uh typically get targeted. with this stuff. Uh it's not because um the Trump.

administration is colluding with the. Russians, it's because the message that. the Trump administration and MAGA in. general and Republicans by extension are. are basically basing their platform on. is like you said, America first. Um. focus on domestic issues. Get ourselves. out of foreign um affairs. And that. [clears throat]. goes lockstep with what Putin wants. It's like, yes, America, go go mess with. your own stuff. And by pointing out and.

creating turmoil about all the things. that are going on in America at any. given time, it makes it seem even that. more urgent to just stop giving money to. Ukraine when we've got all these. middle-class white people who need that. money too and like tax breaks and stuff. like that. That kind of messaging that's. not necessarily wrong, but is making it. seem like the American public sentiment. is behind that. That's the part that's. wrong. They're manipulating that to kind.

of try to get the public to swing that. way. All because they just want to be. able to invade Ukraine more easily. >> Yeah, they had a one project called the. good old USA project uh which one of the. SDA founders had come up with with some. other people and it targeted voters in. six swing states uh during the last. election in 2024 about just that. Like, let's not help Ukraine. Like, why are we. doing that when we have problems here? And uh they also spent about uh. 10 million bucks encouraging right-wing.

influencers to uh get on board with. pro-Russia opinions. So, that's why if you've. if you've ever been on like the the. comment section of any social media site. about anything political like this, first of all, we would both encourage. you to stop doing that cuz it's. just not good for your mental health and. well-being. But, if you do and you see people saying. like, "Oh yeah, thanks, comrade." or. whatever Russian bot, like that's that's. what they're talking about here. >> Yeah, and to be fair, those right-wing.

influencers, the YouTubers that were. hired to disseminate Russian propaganda, were not aware that that's what they. were doing. They were hired by a front company. called Tenet Media. >> Yeah. >> And they hired like six hardcore. right-wing YouTubers and just basically. said, "Hey, um let's talk about this. kind of thing." But, they were not aware. that they were being paid by the. Kremlin. They didn't know that. And then. once that was exposed, that company. dissolved and those people. uh well, I guess had to eat some crow, I.

would guess. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh another thing, if you. ever heard, you know, uh you know, George Soros is paying. those protesters like that by the hour. Like paid protesters, paid protesters. >> Yeah. >> That comes from a fake Washington Post. article. Like. you know, from one of these uh. like completely fake cloned websites. That's where that comes from. Uh it was. right after uh Israel invaded Gaza in. spring of 2024. and that there you know, all the. protests was were going on and there was.

a fake Washington Post article that came. out about the Soros Foundation and uh. and Rockefeller like paying people 30. bucks an hour to go protest. >> Yeah. Uh the one I remember was that the. um Ukrainian government was actually. like Nazis. >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> And really what Russia's doing is. liberating the Ukrainian people. I remember that one for sure. That. definitely came from this doppelganger. era. >> Yeah, one of the weirder ones was. Princess Kate when when sort of.

disappeared from the public eye. >> Yeah. >> Uh. and you know, this is before she. revealed it was because of a cancer. diagnosis, but they jumped on that and. sort of hijacked that with all sorts of. weird conspiracy theories. And again, I. think that was one just to just to. create tension and chaos in the UK. >> Yes, the I don't remember where I found. this, but I saw that their. their involvement in conspiracy theories. is topic agnostic. They don't. >> Yeah. >> care about the subject. Whatever it is. that will push people's buttons,

>> Yep. >> that will get emotional responses and. get people worked up, they will get in. there and amplify it if they if they. didn't make it up themselves in the. first place. >> Man, scary. >> apparently. according to I think the. good old USA project, um that they there. was a whole group at the Social Design. Agency who again, like you said, seem to. be the ones behind this. Um if all of a sudden you start to hear. negative chatter about stuff you should. know, I'm going to go ahead and say it's. probably them after this episode comes.

out. >> I was a little worried about that. I am. >> Hopefully we're still under the radar. enough. >> Well, I'd like to think so. >> Um. yeah, and if all of a sudden Chuck and I. die in a fiery car crash together, it. was probably the Kremlin. >> I'm not flying anytime soon. >> Um you have to. Although I don't want to. say when or how. >> [snorts]. >> We should probably edit this part out. But there was a whole group at the. Social Design Agency that was their job. was to monitor social media posts from.

GOP lawmakers to figure out what was on. America's mind or what people were. worried about or angry about and then. they would start making memes and stuff. based on that and try to create like I. guess mess from that. Just from like one. tweet or something could do it. >> Yeah, for sure. Um I don't know how much. you want to get into this nuts and bolts. section. >> We kind of already covered it really. >> Yeah, it it sort of in the weeds, but. like you sort of mentioned earlier, we. just want to be clear it's like they'll.

use disposable domains that are owned by. other companies. Um, they will use. virtual offices and set up shell. companies. Uh, they'll work with, you. know, in places uh, like at sometimes at. the far reaches of the earth where. they'll set up like. uh, some company in Malaysia where. uh, you know, it's then it goes through. another shell company in Lithuania and. it's just, you know, it's all so. obfuscated and that's the whole point, you know, that you don't know it's hard. to even trace back to any origin.

>> Right. And it's just very decentralized. and then the the companies, these shell. companies are just legitimate enough to. provide cover for the shady hosting. companies to say like, well, they're. they're legal. They're it's a UK. company. Um, so, you know, we don't have. any um, obligation to check what they're doing, right? >> Yeah. >> And then they as it gets closer and. closer to the actual fake website, the. companies just get shadier and shadier. Uh, and apparently they're not the one. they didn't come up with this technique.

It's fairly common among bad actors. >> Yeah. >> Um, like Brad Pitt, I guess. >> I was trying to think of a bad actor. >> Um, >> I didn't want to be mean. >> I I think you can be mean to Brad Pitt. at this point. >> Oh, yeah, cuz he's a fine actor. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> And a fine piece, you know. >> A p- a piece of what? >> You know. >> S R A. >> Did you see he and Ed Norton at the. soccer match? >> No, I heard about it.

>> Yeah, it's kind of fun. The old Fight. Club thing. >> What was I going to say? >> You were going to say we're going to. take a break, right? >> Yeah, I think whatever I was saying just. petered out, didn't matter. >> All right. Well, Josh is going to peter. back up and we'll be back right after. this. >> [music]. [music].

[music]. [music]. >> Okay, so we're back and we know about. Doppelganger, like I said, thanks to. journalists and um. non-governmental organizations that are. dedicated to tracking and fighting. disinformation. Uh the first one where it came up even. before it was called Doppelganger. because remember that was the. EU's disinfo lab that that gave it that.

title. But a full year or so before. that, um a German website T-Online. um not the best name. >> It does. [laughter] It sounds super. fake. Uh they published an article where. they were like, "Hey, there's a bunch of. new Facebook accounts. All of them are. German women. And the weird thing is. they all say that they work for Netflix. And even weirder, every single one of. them seems to be really, really um. adamant about Germany not funding. Ukraine and just leaving Russia alone.".

>> I'm sure Netflix is like, "Seriously? Thanks.". >> I know. Although Netflix is probably like, "Hey, any publicity is good publicity.". >> That's a good point. Um I get this is. this is not this, but uh I know you're. not on social media a lot, but on. Instagram I will get I'll have to block. a lot of people that come on to follow. me uh because it's clear that it's some. sort of a. uh. some sort of a porn thing. >> Sure. >> Or I will get a comment from someone on.

some random like I'll leave a comment on. some random like. like Instagram post that I think is cool. or whatever. And then someone will. comment on that like, "Oh, yeah, totally, Chuck Bryan" or whatever. Chuck. the podcaster. And then I'll I'll look. and be like, who is this? And it's, you. know, it's clearly some fake. person, and I just I don't know what the. angle is, and I always block it, so. obviously I I I don't know, but I wonder. what the goal is. It's got to be separating me from money.

somehow. >> Somehow or yeah or yeah or getting money. to somebody like an influencer or. something or to boost whatever thing you. said was cool. >> Maybe. It's very strange, but it's. always quite obvious what it is because. they have like zero posts, uh follow a. ton of people, no one follows them, and it's usually some, you know, if I can be frank, it's usually some. very like well-endowed, you know, woman. >> Yeah, do you remember there was a period.

of time when AI slop was really starting. to gear up where it does not matter what. video you were watching on like YouTube. or whatever in the search, it was like a very beautiful woman. standing there like Vanna White. >> Right. >> next to the video screen like, learn all. about C++ coding from me, you the sexy. secretary, you know? Like. it was all videos were like that for a. minute, and I was like, god, is this how. it's going to be from now on? And then.

it seems to have vanished. >> Yeah, and you know, the only reason I. bring all that up is cuz it's just sort. of backs up this I thing that we're. talking about and this idea that I keep. edging toward, which is like, god, maybe. it's just best to get off and away from. all of that stuff altogether cuz it's. really going in the wrong direction. >> It No, it definitely is. There's this. thing called the dead internet theory. I've been wanting to do at least a short. stuff on it, but essentially it says. that the internet. has become a. um just a bunch of bots interacting with.

bots trying to game social media. algorithms to make money for some dude. in. or whatever country, Singapore or. something like that, right? And. I some studies have found that perhaps a. third of accounts on either Instagram or. Facebook, probably Facebook, are bots. A. third. >> Um and that it's just gotten so far out. of hand that we're never going to get it. back. And also like those long-tail. articles where you make like 5 cents, but it costs nothing to have an AI write.

and publish that article, those have. have pushed actual human-written, researched articles about any given. thing from like page one Google search. to like page 20. So So there's still like no reason to to. go in and search for anything anymore. unless you want some AI article broken. into 50 different small um paragraphs or. sections that are basically repeat. themselves over and over again. That's. what That's what you have available. So.

it does seem like the internet is pretty. dead. >> Yeah, I've noticed even on uh Instagram. from some sites I like and follow, like. music sites or whatever, it's sort of a. dead giveaway now if the um the caption. instead of being like, you know, Led. Zeppelin performs at this performance. and it was awesome. It's now some really. long like four paragraph thing with like. this detailed history of like Led. Zeppelin was abandoned blah blah blah. And it's just so obvious AI's doing it. >> Yeah. >> And it's just it's kind of ruining what. I used to like about Instagram along. with a lot of other stuff.

>> Yeah. >> Uh like, you know, these fake busty. women. It's like it just makes me want. to run away and stop it all. >> Run. Run away. Something else is going. to come along because there is like it's. very clear that the internet in. like ideally is really great and useful. and important and we need it. It's just. this version of it is no longer useful. So we need to figure out a different. one. And somebody will. It'll come. >> it just it sucks because I don't like to. support that company because they're. part of meta which I hate and got off of. Facebook, but I I do like the connection.

with listeners and be able to chat stuff. up. So it's uh. Yeah. Uh it feels like it's a that's a no-win. situation sometimes. >> I think what it will probably become is. more of an emphasis on email. >> Maybe. >> Again, and then like they'll that'll get. taken over and then it'll be handwritten. letters. >> [gasps]. >> That'd be great. Uh speaking of Meta though, uh in 2022. and this was after that uh T online uh. group that you mentioned sort of out of. this whole thing,

um that's when like Meta and some other. higher-profile companies started saying. like, "Oh, well, like we know this is. going on. We're going to start removing. pages and we're going to start deleting. this and we're going to take this super. serious.". And who knows what's going on in the. inside. I I sound like I'm being cynical. because I probably feel like I am, but. uh they have found that like um a lot of. it is coming through ads and like. they're not even catching uh 95% of. undeclared political ads aren't being. caught in this supposed sweep to clean.

things up. >> Right. Yeah, because it's not just posts. or bots creating posts or even. commenting, it's buying ads. And so. Facebook has a a huge financial. incentive to not root those things out. because they make tons of cash off of. it. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. I mean, they said that they're. doing this, they're not actually doing. it. Um and that's a that's a good. example of the whole whack-a-mole thing. too is like a big company like that. trying to to police their own social.

media site that's gotten out of their. own control. That's not a good. technique either, although I think all. of us could probably agree that Meta. could do way, way more than it does. Um so, the the finally, in September. 2024, after this has been identified for. two full years, the US Department of. Justice is like, "We're going to take. charge here.". >> Yeah, we'll take care of it. >> Get this. They took down 32 websites. >> Wow. >> that were related to Doppelganger.

And they were like this is too risky. before a US election. So, we're going to. we're going to do we're going to go the. nuclear option and take down 32. websites. >> Yeah. I think the the cynicism is coming. through. It's uh I mean whack-a-mole. doesn't even begin to describe it. I'm. sure like Russia hears this stuff and. they're just like laughing into their. vodka, you know? >> Mhm. Yeah, well that's the point that a. lot of people make is that it might not. even be um.

changing people's minds, but just the. fact that we know it exists makes you. question everything then. And so, you're. are questioning the legitimate stuff, too. So, you're not learning anything. Everything has an angle. >> Yeah, and now we're seeing of course. we've talked about I think we did a. whole episode on deep fakes, right? >> Mhm. >> Yeah, on deep fake and obviously the. advent of AI technology, which is now. completely taken over already. Um where they have, you know, a fake. video going up where you it looks like.

Joe Biden doing something. Or it looks. like anybody doing something and they. will take uh you know, they try to evade. detection. So, they'll post a video just. a little differently in different. iterations like with just a few. milliseconds trimmed out so they can't. be auto automatically rooted out when. like a company builds a system to root. out this kind of stuff. >> Right. >> And we're already at the point like AI. has moved so fast. We're already at the. point where people all over the place. for months now been going like I don't. even know if this is real. Like I don't. know what if what I can believe anymore.

So, like it's working. What they're. doing is working. >> Right. Um the thing that got me is that. they figured out because um. AI companies train their models on like. the internet. and specific parts of the internet, the. Russians have figured out that they can. flood. those parts of the internet with. misinformation and that's what the the. AI is going to learn and think is real. So, the AI is going to just give out bad. information or misinformation as well.

because that's what it thinks is true. >> Yeah. >> Uh. >> I'm going to go live in a cave right. after we record this. >> Okay. I'll join you. >> How's that sound? >> We'll get into Buddhism. >> Yeah, let's let's do that. >> So, um. like uh we said, I don't know if we gave. our a hat tip to Olivia who really did a. good exhaustive job on explaining this. Um. >> but one of the things she points out is. that it's really unclear whether this. actually sways opinion.

>> Yeah, there've been some studies, right? >> Yeah, but I mean, just anecdotally. I think it does, but maybe it's one of. those things where like, okay, if it. really comes down to somebody saying, "Do you truly believe that?" Are you. going to be like, "Yes." then maybe it. doesn't really sway opinion. But um. there was a study that looked at. disinformation efforts by Russia in the. 2016 US election. And it basically found that like it had. almost no effect whatsoever. >> Yeah, it's they found that 1% of social.

media users got 70% of the exposures. So, uh a few people getting most of this. stuff. But that's still 30% on the other. 99%. >> Mhm. >> Um and they also point out that like a. lot of the people getting exposed to. this are. uh Republicans. Uh because the Russian posts are. you know, again, they're sort of. targeting them about like, "Hey, America. first stuff, America first stuff." And. they already believe that stuff anyway. >> Right. >> So, it's not maybe like they're changing. minds. Maybe that's the point, but.

they're reinforcing beliefs, for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah, but the again, that fire. hose or the fire hose of misinformation. or false information, that's the that's. the technique and it seems to be. working. The thing that stuck out to me. was I couldn't find anything about what. they're doing now. >> Mhm. >> It seems like they're still doing much. the same cuz it works really, really. well and it can just pop up anywhere. Like there is a story I found, I don't. know if you saw it, where um.

a 2016 disinformation campaign from. Russia actually managed to get real-life. Texans. to battle one another, at least. verbally. I don't think anyone was. physically injured, over the. Islamification of Texas, which was just. complete bunk made up by this. disinformation group. And even more than. that, they made up the group uh that the. protesters joined. They also made up the. group that the counter-protesters. joined. So, the whole thing was totally. fabricated and social engineered. Um so,

like that works. And at the time, these. people were not thinking that they were. being manipulated by Russians, right? They thought it was real. And so, it's. going to keep continuing to work. So, there's no reason for them to stop. I'm. curious about what the next thing is. that they're doing now that we're going. to find out about 3 years from now, you. know? >> Right. Yeah, for sure. Uh the other. thing that sort of would send a chill up. your spine is like none of this is even. secret anymore. Like it's out and they. know it's out and they don't care.

>> Um They're out and proud. >> They're out and proud uh. with their what they call a high-reach, low-impact um campaign, which is, like. you said again, the firehose and the. volume of content uh doesn't really. matter how much uh people believe it or. not as long as you're sowing chaos and. getting people to eventually think like, "I don't even know like maybe I'll just. disengage altogether cuz I don't know. what's real." Uh when widespread. coverage of Doppelganger came out, the. Russian government was like, "Awesome.

Let's uh give more funding to the SDA.". And there's even a suggestion that SDA. deliberately leaked uh operation. Doppelganger, like information about. that, just to get more media coverage. about it. >> Right. >> Man. >> Yeah. >> I really do want to go live in a cave. after this. >> The best suggestion I saw um. was to fight fire with fire. That the. whole whack-a-mole thing is never ever. going to work and it actually just helps. Russia, like you said, just by giving it. publicity. Um and that essentially the best thing.

the West could do is to create its own. SDA and and. just turn it on Russia. That that's. basically the only option to to get them. to stop. >> That sounds like a great idea. >> For sure. Uh well, since Chuck and I are jaded, I. think it's time for a listener mail. He's beyond jaded. >> Uh all right, guys, for this is a nice. light way to end.

Guys, for years my wife and I have had. an argument over the pronunciation of b. i o p i c. Like when you make a movie. about a a person, like a biographical. picture. >> Mhm. >> Uh we've both been stubborn to admit. defeat. Uh she's part of the biopic. crowd, but I prefer biop right. [music]. She of course claims she's right because. she's a former elementary school teacher. and a big study of English lit. and knows the truth, [music] blah blah. blah. But it wasn't until Chuck said uh biop. in your recent Howard Hughes episode. that I got the vindication I needed.

Yeah. I don't care if Chuck and I are. wrong. Uh it doesn't matter. All that. matters is I know I'm not alone anymore. and will continue with my pronunciation. and I'll make uh sure to pass this down. to my seven and four-year-old kids. That is from Kevin Croyle in uh North. Carolina and uh I also got a really um. rude email from a very. I guess angry person. that I said it differently and they were. like, "I guess you like being wrong." Uh. I I guess it is wrong. I don't even. know. I never thought about it, but I. don't say biography, I say biography.

Mhm. So, I say biop and I don't know. That's just how it flowed out of my. mouth. So, I may be wrong. [music] I. don't care. >> Yeah. You may be crazy. >> You say biop, right? >> Mhm. But that's just what I've always. heard. And I'm so used to you saying bioptic. now that it's not even I think that. they're both right. I think you managed. to wedge it into reality. >> Well, maybe someday when someone writes. the biography on our lives, it'll be turned into a biopic. Yeah. >> Um all right. Well, who is that from the. nice one?

>> Uh that is from Kevin. >> Thanks, Kevin. That was very nice and. I'm glad you feel vindicated. Sorry to. your wife. Um although she and I share. the same pronunciation. Okay. >> Yeah, we we can all have a arm wrestling. match one day or something. >> Uh if you want to be like Kevin and. write to us about feeling vindicated by. me or Chuck or Jerry or whoever, we want. to hear about it. Send it off to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of.

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