How Crowds Work | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh. There's Chuck. [music] There's. Jerry. You squeeze us together in a a. one m square [music]. space, we're still doing pretty good on. stuff you should know. >> You know what's [music] funny? as I was. reading uh and we'll get to it, but when. things start to become problematic as.

far as people per square meter. >> Mhm. >> And I started to panic. >> Oh, really? Yeah. Uh that that didn't. get me. But it it occurred to me that. some people listening to this are going. to feel that way, too. >> Yeah. Because we're talking about. crowds, and if even the discussion of. being in very close proximity to someone. else triggers you, then consider this. your warning. >> Yeah. Great, great job, Chuck. Yeah, sure. >> So, we are talking crowds today. Chuck, you you spoiled the entire episode by. mentioning that.

>> Yeah. >> Um I'm just kidding, buddy. Um and. generally, you think of this huge mass. of people, say like at a concert or. something like that or a show if you're. into indie bands. Um but it can be any. assemblage of people, any group of. people. I'm guessing more than two if. that old adage is correct about three. being a crowd, but it can be anything. from a bunch of people on an elevator to. a bunch of people going to Mecca, flocking to Mecca for the Haj on any.

given year. >> Yeah, I think like technically just any. any grouping. Who who put this one. together by the way? Initially, >> this was a um Julia joint. And thank you. for reminding me before we go further. Kimberly from the prison labor listener. mail is the person who got this one. going. So, thanks Kimberly. >> Okay. Yeah, thanks big time because I. thought this was super interesting. But. >> yeah, >> uh yeah, I mean Julia did some research. and basically came back with this. A. crowd is any group of people tempor. temporarily gathered in the same. physical space relatively close to each.

other. >> Elevators. >> Sure. >> I mean, it's a little surprising if you. think about it. For some reason, I got. hooked on the elevator thing. But. there's a lot of different reasons those. people could be together. They're all. going to different floors in the same. building, say if they happen to be on an. elevator. Um, or they could all have a. shared interest. Um, they're all at a. gun show. Um, or they have a shared. goal. They're trying to overthrow their. regime, uh, their ruling regime. There's.

all sorts of different reasons people. come together in crowds. Sometimes it's. on purpose. Sometimes it's not planned. by that person, but it just happens. And. one of the cool things is we've been. studying crowds through all sorts of. different lenses. >> And we've kind of whittleled down to the. fact that humans are essentially. innately um good at navigating crowds. for the most part. >> Yeah. Uh, you know, some of the stuff. Julia came back with was fairly um like.

you might be a little scared of crowds, >> but it is good to know that that is sort. of outdated thinking. And while we will. talk about bad things that can happen in. crowds, um the the modern understanding. of crowds, you're right, is that people. are generally pretty um orderly um even. in the face of disaster. >> Mhm. Uh, and the things that make a. crowd go bad a lot of times it's not the. crowd's fault. >> Yeah. They get blamed by authorities. very frequently in retrospect and then.

in further retrospect it turns out like. no actually the authorities are probably. at fault in this case. >> Yeah. I mean it's almost as if sometimes. a a peaceful protest can turn bad when. uh an armed military shows up, >> right? Just the presence of that. >> just the presence and then other things. that happen after. >> Right. So yes and we'll talk about that. for sure because there is a huge role. for law enforcement and dealing with. crowds like it's part of their job. Sure. >> is crowd crowd they say crowd control.

but that's apparently an outdated term. as well but dealing with crowds managing. crowds. Um so that's part of their job. That's not going to go away. We don't. really want it to go away. Instead, we. want law enforcement to do it in the. using the best practices that have been. proven over and over again that cut down. the chance of a crowd turning ugly by. huge percentages. >> Yeah. But, you know, one thing is for. sure, like people behave differently in. crowds and sometimes it's great. Uh, you.

know, I never I never dance like this. man, but I'm at Burning Man and and look. at me all of a sudden, >> right? uh or it can turn bad. And we're. going to we're going to cover all. angles. >> Well, let's talk about some of the bad. ones because there are some famous ones. Um this happens. You don't want to say a. lot, but it's one of those things like a. plane crash where it seems like it will. happen all the time because it's just so. shocking the details of it. Whenever it. does happen, it seems like it happens. way way more frequently. That's just not.

the case. But when it does happen, like. I said, it can be pretty bad. >> Yeah. You know, because people can get. trampled. Uh people can be squashed by. force like in a in a crowd rush pressure. can reach 1,000 pounds of force which is. a lot. >> Yeah. >> Uh that can lead to loss of life. Um. notably like you said we're going to. mention a handful but the Astroorld. Festival in Houston very sadly in 2021. at the Travis Scott performance 10. people lost their lives and many more. were injured. >> Yeah. Uh there was one I hadn't heard of.

that was pretty bad. Um quite bad. It. happened at the coronation of Zar. Nicholas II in Moscow in 1896. >> Yeah. >> There was a crowd of half a million. people who were all there for the. coronation and they knew that they were. giving out free souvenirs essentially. I. saw half a pound of sausage, bags of. nuts, a souvenir cup and apparently they. had enough for everybody. But a rumor. spread in the crowd that they didn't. have enough for everybody. And so the. people in the back started pushing. A. stampede broke out and 1,300 people.

died. Yeah. Feels like concerts and. sporting events, it can be dozens of. people, which is all incredibly sad, but. when people in the order of thousands. are dying Yeah. >> from from an event, that's pretty. striking. >> And that really follows the model, it. seems like, for loss of life in crowd. crushes. There's some sort of bottleneck. toward the front and uh it's wider in. back, so people in back start pushing. and the people in front can't go. forward, so they get crushed. That seems.

to be like the case. That's what. happened in Astroorld. That's what. happened in Moscow. Um that's what. happened in Doober, Germany. >> at the world's largest techno festival, the love parade. >> Yeah, I remember that. 2010, 21 people. died. Uh and there was a it was a tunnel. in that case. >> Yeah. It also happened. And I mentioned. the Haj and 2,000 people 2,000 people. died at the Haj. as part of that annual pilgrimage to.

Mecca that all Muslims are required to. do at least once in their lifetime. Well, they have like on the order of one. and a half million people up to two. million people every year do this thing. And in 2015, 2,000 people died because. there was a bottleneck. people push from. the back and that actually broke the. previous record of the most people. killed in a crowd crush that was also at. the Haj this time in 1990. Yeah. Uh. super super sad because of all these.

tragedies. Um people have been studying. how people move through crowds, crowd. dynamics. It's uh you know they use a. lot of different sciences. uh physics. definitely is one and we're going to. talk about all these but also uh. physiology, psychology certainly and. what they're looking at is human. behavior uh how people behave when they. get in a crowd because it it changes. once you have sort of a veil of. anonymity going on and again it can be. good or bad but they use this in all.

kinds of modeling whether it's you know. in city planning or certainly event. preparation, disaster management, crowd. management, all kinds of people like. will pay people a lot of money to study. and give their findings. >> and you mentioned um applying the. principles of physics to studying this. I think that started in the 50s and it's. not like tit fortat but the movement and. the formation of crowds resembles it so. much that you can basically use physics. terms like orbital motion or oscillators.

to basically describe how people behave. in a crowd and how crowds behave. themselves. One of the ways of looking. at it is systems theory and complex. adapted systems are what crowds do. It's. chaotic at first, but then they start to. move together as a whole. Lines of. communication develop without speech. It's just you kind of like the crowd. learns through feedback and it just. starts it becomes a a cohesive hole.

rather than just a bunch of people. together in a space. >> Yeah. I mean certainly fluid dynamics uh. is a factor and they kind of use some of. that terminology as well when talking. about crowds. Uh because if you're a. fluid uh like let's say you're a liquid. or even a gas uh the particles are. really tightly packed but they're never. actually colliding because they have. electrons repelling each other. >> Yeah. >> We do a similar thing but it's called. this what's known as social force. >> Uh it's that that thing when you're in a. crowd and you just unconsciously.

instinctively navigate without like. constantly bumping into other people. Um. at least if if you're doing it right. >> Right. Uh I've been in crowds where. people are a little more unaware and. there may be reasons for that. Uh so I'm. not like casting espersions but. >> uh generally speaking your body is just. automatically adjusting cuz you want. that path of least resistance. You don't. want to be banging into people all. around you. And even in great crowds,

like a huge excited stadium, uh after a. big sports win or after a big energetic. concert or something, >> um you still find your way out of there. generally, you know, not making contact. with other people. Maybe slight, you. know, bumps here and there, but uh. unless someone really has their head up. their butt or they're super drunk or. there may be other, you know, some. genuine factor they can't help, they're. not just banging right into people. constantly. Yeah, that made me wonder if.

it's electrons repelling each other that. keeps liquids from bumping into one. another. >> I wonder if the collective group of. electrons in our bodies are what makes. us inherently makes us inherently avoid. it and almost have a six sense for that. kind of thing. >> I like that, Eddie. >> It's like the quantum explanation of. swerving. >> Yeah. A little hippie- dippy. So, there. are a couple things that we figured out. about crowds that um that the way that. they behave is again, this is. spontaneous. I don't even know if we've. said it, so maybe not. Again, it's.

spontaneous. It's unconscious typically. and it's collective, right? So, we're. actually moving cooperatively with other. people whether we realize it or not. We. think we're just trying to make it to. the exit because we want to get to our. car first so we can get the heck out of. the parking lot as soon as possible. but. we're actually unconsciously moving in. conjunction with other people. One of. the really great ways that that um. expresses itself is in lane formation, which is well, it's exactly what it.

sounds like, right? >> Yeah. It's people kind of gathering and. moving in one direction together, uh. forming a lane. uh it's no one's taking. the lead and seeing seeing everyone uh. this is the United States so we. generally walk down the right side of. the hallway or the corridor and other. people on the left. Uh that is something. when I've traveled abroad I had to get. used to uh because I didn't realize the. rules of the road typically apply to. moving around the world as well. >> Sure. >> So uh I I didn't know that until I I.

went over to England for the first time. and was bumping into people constantly. Uh but yeah, here in the United States. it's generally uh right side, left side, or I guess it doesn't explain it well, but no, you move along the right side of. a hallway. >> Sure. And that's just a difference in. the electron spin of people in Europe. and the people in the US. >> Oh man. >> I also mentioned orbital motion too, right? So apparently in a crowd, people. moving in the same direction or if.

you're in a crowd that's just basically. in one place. I think they studied the. festival of the running of the bulls in. Pamplona to to get [clears throat] this. information. You basically create you. move in a circle in an orbit is what. they call it in and you complete this. orbit in about 18 seconds. And when I. was reading this I'm like that's just. not true. And then I went and watched. video of this study and yes people just. move around in a tight circle. Basically, you're you're moving because.

other people are moving, but you're. ultimately you're keeping your same. space, this one orbital circle, which is. pretty awesome. >> I mean, to be clear, cuz that sounded. slightly confusing. >> People are not walking in a tight. circle. You're just moving your body. within a circular space, >> right? >> Like maybe raising your elbow to scratch. your head or something like that, >> right? So imagine. imagine the person in front of you. >> imagine the person in front of you is.

backing up. So you back up and then you. maybe move to the right and then they. move this way and you kind of come. forward to your left and then you kind. of back up a little bit to your left and. then you back up center like that. So. you're facing the same way the whole. time, but you're just shuffling your. feet in the way that you're doing this. You're ultimately creating an orbit. >> Yeah. And I think that also applies to. just taking up your personal space with. general body movement. >> Yes, the electrons. >> So this this works out pretty great. This idea of social force, it it seems.

to work pretty well. And even in big. crowds, uh it when it starts to get a. little more highly dense is when it's a. problem. And this is where you might get. triggered like I was. And I don't even. mind crowds. But when it started talking. and getting like denser and denser, I. just found myself getting a little, you. know, my breathing sort of increased. >> Yeah. >> So, at two people per square meter, a. crowd moves a little slower uh because. they're still trying to, you know, get. that distance between you and the and. and your friend next to you. Uh four.

people, um you're going to start to bump. around a little bit. At six people, things get truly difficult. And at 10. people per square meter, and I measured. that out on the floor, uh that that made. me panic a little bit. That means. individual movement is basically. impossible. And the likelihood of like. in a big crowd that that's that dense, um something bad is is likely to happen. >> Yeah. This is the point where you can't. raise your arms. They're at your side. >> Um if a crush starts to happen, you.

can't breathe. So there like you can die. of esphyxiation. Um there was a very. famous um tragedy in 2022 in Seoul uh. the Teawan tragedy where kids in their. 20s healthy kids in their 20s died of. heart attacks because they asphyxiated. and their heart stopped because of a. crowd crush. >> Yeah. And if you're wondering what this. all looks like, uh we didn't do Big Mac. Should have done Big Macs. But six. people per square meter where you know.

it's not tragic but movement is. difficult. That's about 1,700 people. packed onto a tennis court. >> Yep. >> So that's a lot. >> Yeah. And that was at six. We're talking. 10 is when you can really be in trouble. Now that is not guaranteed that. something's going to go wrong. Uh in. Awan there were like this this situation. was going on for an hour or so before it. turned problematic. So, as long as the. people in the back are doing good and.

not pushing, as long as somebody in the. center doesn't faint and fall over or. trip and fall down, this can work. It's. not inherently going to be deadly, but. the chances of it becoming dead. It's. just sitting there balancing on the. razor's edge at that point. It's a. really dangerous place to be. >> Yeah, it it's that one triggering. incident is when it can really go south. there. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Scary. Shall we take a break? Yes. >> All right. We'll be right back uh with. more crowds.

YOU SHUT UP. YOU SHOULD KNOW. STOP. Shut up. YOU SHOULD KNOW. STOP. YOU. SHOULD. [music]. [music]. All right. So we covered uh partially. covered physics. We should talk a little.

bit about psychology because crowds have. their own distinct psychology around. them as well. And people can behave in. ways that they don't normally behave in. a crowd. >> um just because of that psychology. And early on the explanation for that. was like if there's a violent crowd then. it was just full of violent people, >> right? And there was a French. psychologist named Gustaf Lebon in 1895. who wrote the literal book on this like. the first one called the crowd colon a.

study of the popular mind. >> Mhm. >> And it was very influential but this is. one of those that's a little outdated in. a lot of ways. >> Yeah, it's right in some ways. But his. whole thing was like you have any crowd. together, they're inherently mindless. They form a collective mind. they become. capable of anything. They're very. suggestible. They're going to kill. everybody in their path, >> right? >> And like there are crowds that have done. that before, >> but that's not the inherent um I guess.

trait of crowds. Like crowds are. actually the opposite. They're actually. way more peaceful and pro-social than. that. But Leon essentially set the view. of crowds that's still persistent today. in a lot of quarters. Um and he did yeah. he just had a huge impact on this. >> Yeah absolutely. Um if you look at the. different uh explanations over the years. of like the the this collective behavior.

because collective behavior is. definitely happening. >> Yeah. >> There are a few different theories. Uh. one is a contagion theory and that was. put forth by Leon himself. Uh which is. that this irrational behaviors that. happen in a crowd spreads like a virus. >> Yeah. um that can happen and it also. can't. So that I'm I'm sort of 50/50 on. that one. >> Yeah. Again, like all of this stuff. makes sense. It's just not like this is. the most salacious rare version of. crowds, right? >> Yeah. >> You can also make the case like good um.

positive behavior can be contagious in a. crowd as well because like you said, people behave differently in crowds. That's just a fact. >> Yeah. Like that dancing at Burning Man. >> Yeah. Exactly. Uh there's also. convergence theory which also makes a. bit of sense that explains why crowds. have a collective mind and it just. basically says that's because crowds are. made up of similar people. Like usually. there's not a lot of crowd-like mindless. say behavior on an elevator because.

everybody there didn't come together on. the elevator to protest something. But. if you have a protest, there's way more. potential for collective mind behavior. because there's people who are there for. the same reason. So, they're sharing. kind of a wavelength already when they. get there. >> Yeah. If you're at that concert. together, you're there because you. you're uh you want to see Bob Dylan in. person. >> All right. >> You're all there for the same reason. >> Sure. Or you want to hear David Crosby. herang you. >> Oh, man. He will, too. Or he would have.

He did. >> Oh, yeah. Um Okay. So that's. convergence. There's also group mind. theory. It's a little on the nose. It's. basically saying like you lose your. individual identity and it's replaced as. a part a cog of this larger group's. identity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Again, >> yeah, it's not it's not totally off. Social identity theory seems to be the. prevalent dominant view of of I guess. kind of de-individuation in crowds.

>> Yeah. That's where you just you're. acting like everyone else is acting. because you just want to fit in. >> Yeah. But you can't really put it better. than that. >> Uh so how do you become a crowd member? Um there are a few key concepts there. >> First you have to get training. Go to. school. [laughter]. >> Got to go to crowd school, >> right? >> Uh and the first thing you need in crowd. school is a lot of people in a very. tight spot. It's called panic school. >> How you feeling right [clears throat]. now, by the way?

>> Uh I'm okay. And it's weird because I. don't have like um what's it called? Claustrophobia necessarily. >> Uhhuh. >> Um I I think it's more for me just like. I can't wait to get out of that crowd. cuz I I just want to have a little. space. Maybe I do have a little. claustrophobia. >> Yeah. I mean it sounds like it, but I. think everybody does to a degree. It's. just threshold, you know? >> Yeah. But I've never, you know, I can. accept hugs and I was never one of those. kids like under the dog pile that was. like freaking out or anything like that.

Oh yeah, I did not like that. >> Yeah. Well, you have a little. claustrophobia, right? >> Yeah, a little bit. I've kind of um. outgrown it a lot, but yeah, if you put. me in like a sewer covert or or hearing. about like a caving accident, that's I. mean, I'll start. Yeah, I can't handle. that. >> Well, maybe you have a fear of dying. >> That that [laughter] could be it. >> That might be what's going on. >> It could be it, which is rational. >> Uh but what what are we talking about? We're talking about the three key. concepts uh for um that are that form.

these foundations of collected behavior. and they are de oh man deindividuation. >> emotional contagion. >> and suggestability and that first one. de-individuation. is uh basically like kind of what you. were hinting at earlier is there's this. new social identity and your individual. identity is taking a break. >> Yeah. And this is a good example of how. this stuff can kind of make sense, but.

it's also like you really just paid. attention to the worst part of it. Um, and this came from Philip Zumbardo. Remember him from the Stanford prison. experiment? >> Oh yeah. >> It was all about de-individuation. So he. focused some work on crowds. And. essentially what he said is that yeah, you just basically leave your own. identity at the door. You take on a new. identity of crowd member, group member, and basically whatever the group's up. for, you're up for, too. You feel. anonymous. You feel unidentified. You.

also feel connected to those other. people. And so, if those other people. start, you know, looting or something. like that, you would probably never loot. by yourself, >> right? >> But since you're in that group, you've. lost your individual identity that would. prevent you from looting. Now it's like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm part of this. group and we're looting, so let's get to. it. >> I think that's fascinating and I think. that is so true and happens all the. time. Uh, and we've seen it in all all.

across like I feel like in recent years. especially with various protests and you. know things that people might call. riots, things that people might call. insurrections where people that normally. wouldn't behave in a certain way uh like. hey I was going down the to to the. capital building to to voice my opinion. about how [clears throat] this country. is being run and next thing you know I'm. beating a cop down with a flag pole and. that normally I would not do something. like that. >> Exactly. That's a great example of that. On the other side of it, you might never.

dance with your shirt out wearing. nothing but a loin cloth. >> Burning man. >> Yes. But in a different situation, you. could be having just one of the greatest. moments of your life. Totally. >> And that's not just the ecstasy speaking. friend. That is you being a part of a. crowd and feeling that kind of. exhilaration of being. >> part or connected to something larger. than yourself. >> So it's the same thing. >> in a sense. You're de-individuated one. way or another. It's just how is it.

going? Is it going positive? Is it going. negative? Or is it even neutral? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think this is all just. very fascinating. Uh the second one we. mentioned was emotional contagion. >> Mhm. >> And that is just the fact that, you. know, emotions in a crowd are heightened. anyway. If you're there at that concert. or that protest, um you're highly. emotional probably for whatever reason. you're there. Yeah. or or if your team. just won the big game and you're leaving. in a big crowd. So, uh you're you're. aware of the people around you. Uh but.

that like one person like and and you've. seen it before in any of those. circumstances where one person again. triggers something because they're extra. uh emo and all of a sudden everyone. rises to meet that level of emotion. >> Yeah. One thing I saw though, I think. it's part of social identity theory is. that that depends on the mood of the. group or the norms of the group. So if. it's like a group that is generally. saying like we're a peaceful protest, >> somebody can come up and throw a Molotov. cocktail and everybody else in the.

group's going to look at them like, "What the heck are you doing?" They will. isolate that person, ostracize that. person, and continue on with their. peaceful protest. But if the norm of the. group is like, "Yeah, we're being like. repressed here." and somebody throws a. Molotov cocktail, there's a good chance. that that that crowd will change its. norms to include throwing Molotov. cocktails and more people will join in. >> Yeah. I mean, you used to uh hang out in. a mosh pit or two back in the day, I'm. sure. Right. >> Oh, yeah. >> Here and there. >> Mhm.

>> The mosh pit. I mean, I think they could. be and they probably have been studied. within the crowd dynamics cuz it's sort. of just a microcosm. But I remember in. those days and I wasn't like, "Oh man, I. can't wait to get in that mosh pit.". >> Mhm. But if one broke out around me, I. would find myself in it like having a. good time. Yeah. And the same thing. would happen. I was in mosh pits where. there was one jerk throwing elbows. >> Yeah. >> And everyone's like, "Get out of here, dude.". >> Yeah. >> And then I've been in others where all. of a sudden that one dude triggered. another dude and then all of a sudden it.

got a little scary in there and that's. when Chuck took a walk. >> Yeah. That's a good idea. >> Yeah. >> And then also there's there's often that. jerk that's like not even in the pit. He. just pushes people in who weren't. planning on joining. >> Yeah, that that should be a choice. >> That guy needs to soak his head. >> Yeah, I I had a quick story here about. the first or not the first La Plus, the. one with the Beasty Boys and at Lakewood. Amphitheater, big outdoor amphitheater. on the lawn. >> Okay. >> The mosh pit behind us, I wasn't in this.

one, but it got so big. It was about. >> How big was it? >> It was about a third of the size of a. amphitheater lawn. >> Wow. And it was swirling in the circle. and people started throwing up their. their cups and stuff and their the trash. around them. >> and that stuff formed a a whirlpool, a. tunnel of of trash. >> Wow. >> Like as if a tornado uh was taking it. up. >> That's amazing. >> Or at least that's what I saw. [laughter]. >> That's a You know what I mean? >> That's a worldass mosh pit right there.

>> It was inc. I've never seen anything. like it. And I've been around a lot of. big shows like that and I'd never seen. anything like that. That's like that. part from American Beauty where the kid. sees the plastic bag caught up in the. little whirlwind. He's like, "This is. the most beautiful thing I've ever. seen.". >> Yeah. I used to think that was the best. movie ever. I don't think it's aged. well. >> Not just because it hasn't. >> Not just because of spacey. The whole. thing is kind of corny to me now what I. think about it. >> Well, I'm not going to watch it again. then. >> Yeah. >> Uh, okay. There's one more um I guess.

key aspect that you mentioned too, which. is suggestability. >> Mhm. And this was, I think, another Leon. thing, who by the way, as far as I can. tell, is not related to Simon Leon. God, >> that'd be great. >> Yeah. Um, but Leon basically was like. they're de-individuated. They um are. basically capable of anything. And if. there's if like you could tell them. whatever and they'll go do it. This. definitely I mean just from recent. experience like like this can happen but. it requires typically a central leader.

or or organizer that people are looking. to uh a charismatic speaker somebody who. can actually tap into that collective. mind and push it one direction or. another. That is possible but again that. is fairly rare when that when something. like that happens but it again it is. possible. It does happen sometimes. >> Well, I mean, I don't think we mentioned. earlier uh Hitler and Mussolini both. studied the works of Leon. >> Mhm. Yeah. And and I mean like they.

mobilized it to their own ends. They. used it to generate nationalism and. xenophobia. >> and essentially create like their own. fascist states because it does work if. you do it right and you have a a crowd. in the right mindset. >> That's right. >> That's nuts, dude. >> Uh should we break or keep going? I say we. >> All right, we can break. You have my. permission.

You should [music]. stop now. [music]. So, one of the great things, Chuck, about studying crowds is that you you. can figure out what makes crowds do.

what? And they have in a lot of ways. Not just how they behave like physics or. what the psychology is behind crowds, but like what triggers crowds to say. change their mood because remember I. said like depending on the norms like. they may or may not behave violently or. unlawfully and that can change with the. same crowd depending on the. circumstances. And um one of the like a. good example of that is that um if you. have been if you're a law enforcement. officer and you're there and you.

basically your whole squad is like it's. a protest so of course they're going to. turn violent and they're going to throw. rocks at us and stuff like that. Just. being primed to believe that actually. makes it more likely that the crowd will. behave that way. It's it's not like we. have it reversed. So, like ju like like you said, just the. presence of a law enforcement. like group or force in riot gear makes. it more likely that a crowd will turn. violent.

>> Yeah, for sure. Um, they have this new. uh I don't know how widespread it is. yet, but one of the newer developments. in this kind of uh quote unquote crowd. control is something called the dialogue. team. >> Yeah. >> And that's when you you get your nicest. cop, I guess. >> Yeah. and make them the the public facing uh. face of that unit and they put them out. in the lead and they communicate um. their purpose there, their presence. there, how they'd like things to go. Um.

and it's it's a and apparently it works. a lot better than just showing up and. standing there beating that billy club. into your hand and staring down at. people uh in all your heavy gear. Apparently, it has a quite a great. calming effect on crowds and can even. see the police presence as a little more. benevolent. >> Mhm. >> Uh and cause the crowd to maybe self. police a little more. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the chances of the crowd. turning ugly is way decreased when you. have that kind of um that like you said, public facing kind of law enforcement.

Yeah. Like you still have the riot gear. You may even still have a line of guys. with assault rifles with rubber bullets. and there's like the the um M wrap like. off in the distance, but it's not that's. not what you have up against the crowd. You have friendly. officers that are explaining that. they're there to protect your First. Amendment rights, but also keep you. safe. And yeah, like you said, self-p. policing, getting a crowd to police. itself. >> Yeah. >> Is I mean, that's just the pinnacle of.

crowd control. Totally. And it isn't. very widespread here, but it's a model. that Europe as a whole has adopted since. the early 2000s, the as. >> um and so it's starting to spread over. here, but it feels like it's more u. being that it's it's being handed over. from Europe to the academics in America. who are trying to give it to law. enforcement in America to to take and. run with. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the key to any, you. know, regardless of the dialogue uh team.

out in front, the key to any sort of. peaceful situation in a protest and. dealing with cops. >> is these cops have to be trained like. super trained. Uh training is the key to. every uh officer interaction that they. they take. And most of these big. tragedies that you can point to uh and. not just in protests, but just any kind. of these like crushing tragedies. >> Yeah. um is the result of uh untrained. officers in a lot of cases.

>> Yeah. Sometimes even the people who are. in charge of all of the police there. might not be trained in what they're. doing. Like the Sheffield tragedy um in. I think 1989 the police were blamed for. that. Although the police initially. blamed soccer hooligans and it was like. no the the cops were who were in charge. of this had no reason to be in charge of. this. They had no training whatsoever. >> Um so that is a huge one for sure. uh a couple of sociologists came along. to do a lot of the sort of official.

reputation of Lebanon in the 20th. century. And was it uh was the Italian. guy you mentioned? This guy. >> Enrico? >> I I didn't did I mention an Italian guy? >> I thought you mentioned an Italian guy, but regardless whether he's showing up. for the first time or the second. >> Okay. >> A guy named Enrico uh Quarantelli. He looked at a lot of emergency. evacuations and studied them and he. basically came to the conclusion that. usually people flee from these things.

Um obviously because it's the the. sensible thing to do but it's not. necessarily a panicked irrational group. of people. They do so generally order in. an orderly fashion. >> Yeah. Let's talk about that. Let's talk. about emergency identity because one of. the things one of the ways that um that. crowds kind of create like a different a. different way of thinking is let's say. you have a group of people on a subway. and the subway like is running normally. Uh they are just a group of strangers.

trying not to make eye contact with one. another on their way home, on their way. to work, on their way wherever. >> They have no affiliation with one. another aside from the fact that they're. currently sharing space with one. another. If that subway breaks down, those strangers become a group instantly. once they realize, okay, we're stuck. The human tendency that recent um. scholarship has found is to come. together as a group, help one another, start to actually care what happens to. every other member of the group.

>> Um trust one another, treat one another. with respect. uh and that that happens. in disaster after disaster after. disaster or subway breakdown after. subway breakdown. There was another. sociologist, I don't have his name, um. but he studied like 180 different. peacetime disasters and basically found. yeah there's jerks in every crowd but. for the most part they are the the vast. majority of people act pro-socially and. positively to come together as a group. um in the face of a disaster. Yeah, that.

was Charles Fritz. Uh, and I couldn't. help but think of Elaine Bennis the. second you mentioned the subway. stopping. >> Oh, I don't remember that one. >> Oh, it was the great Seinfeld episode. where Elaine was stuck on a out of work. subway. Oh, man. A malfunctioning. subway. It was pretty great. Okay. I had. a great u experience in New York years. ago and I might have told this one. before, but where uh there was a guy. kind of stomping up and down the subway. um platform saying he was going to shove.

someone. >> Mhm. >> onto the oncoming train and just. instinctively a group of 20 uh New. Yorkers and me um went and gathered. together in a group with a uh a mother. and her baby at the center of that uh. atom. >> Wow. at the nucleus and it wasn't no one. said, "All right, everyone, let's get. together here." We all just stood. together um got just wandered closer to. one another and probably all making our.

way toward that woman and her baby and. before you know it, there was a big. group of us standing in a circle and uh. I that's the one where I went and um met. the cops upstairs. uh and led them to the guy. >> Awesome. >> And I was it was pretty obvious who it. was, but I was like, "Hey, he's down. here." And boy, New York City's finest. They acted uh with uh intention. That's. all all I'll say. >> I see. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> So, what you just said, that story. undermines a very famous um uh misguided.

idea about crowds, the bystander effect, which we talked about at great length in. our episode on Kitty Genevves. >> That's right. But one study I saw. recently found that they were studying. all sorts of fights that were caught on. like um like uh security cameras or. whatever. >> and I think 90% of these fights at least. one person intervened. Most of the time more than one person. intervened and so the bystander effect.

says the more people there are the less. likely anyone is to act to help. >> They found the opposite was true. the. more people there were, the more people. helped intervene in this violent fight. So that whole idea that people just. don't do that um is is actually untrue. It's based on misreporting by a New York. Times article. >> That's right. >> But there are there's evidence that. there are other reasons people might not. ne necessarily not render aid, but say. not speak up or share their opinions.

because they're in a group too, right? Uh yeah, that's sort of like um if. you're in a in a classroom and the. teacher asks if anyone has any anything. else to say or whatever or has any. questions, right? >> And nobody says anything even though. they might have questions. >> I remember doing that. >> Sure. >> I still do that. Yeah, I'm sure I would. too in a classroom setting, but I I. would I would just assume like I was the. only one who didn't get it or I and.

probably a lot of other people were just. ready to leave. >> Well, in in a classroom, I don't think. that factors in, but as an adult, I. think you're right on the money. I've. been in situations where it's uh oh, I. don't know if you're in a a a public. meeting for something or if you're on. the board of a local garden or whatever. and you can get the sense that everyone. wants to go home. >> Yeah. >> You don't want to be that person that's. like, well, I have another point at the.

end of it, >> right? Yeah. Well, there's a difference. between asking a question and liking to. hear yourself talk. >> Well, very good point. So yeah, that's. called pluralistic ignorance where you. feel like um even though your opinions. differ, you are making an assumption. about the rest of the group that you. that they feel this way. So you don't. want to make waves when it turns out. that most of the group probably feels. the same way you do. >> Yeah, for sure. Um I did want to follow. up with a stat that you found. >> Yeah, >> I want to follow up with your.

information. Okay. Uh because when you. were talking about Fritz, I think this. idea that um you know, if if you watch. the news, you you might think every. protest leads to violence or you know, the summer of violence with George. >> uh Floyd and Black Lives Matter and. stuff like that. >> or pro Palestinian uh campus protest. >> There are stats on this stuff. Uh like. there's raw numbers. And of the 553. uh pro Palestine campus protests between. April and uh April 18th and May 3rd, 2024, 97% were what was classified as.

overwhelmingly peaceful. >> Uh and the same with Black Lives Matter. Um there were 2400 demonstrations. uh after the murder of George Floyd and. uh I think it was 93% of them remained. entirely peaceful. There were less than. 220 out of the 2400 that had any kind of. violence whatsoever. Right. So, yes, that's good news. I mean, yeah, that's. great news. And I think that um the. Black Lives Matter George Floyd protests. were one of the things that really kind. of changed um a lot of scholarship or.

gave a lot of weight to some of the. emerging scholarship that that crowds. actually aren't aren't bad necessarily. and they can be beneficial socially, too. >> Yeah. Because they don't the news. doesn't cover 2400 peaceful protests, >> right? uh they cover the ones, you know, and I guess I get it because it's the. news and if it's. I guess I get it is all I'm saying. >> Yeah. I want to do an episode on on how. the news affects the world and how it. has so far because I think it's done a.

lot of damage. >> Yeah. >> Um I agree. >> There's one other thing too. Um we. mentioned like say the presence of. police um in riot gear can actually. trigger violence that otherwise might. not have taken place in a crowd. Um, that's not the only thing. If there. are weapons of whoever has the weapons, that can change things. And then another. really big one that cannot be overlooked. is the presence of a lot of people on. alcohol. >> Yeah.

>> That has caused a lot of riots. It just. has. It's like you're not going to set a. couch on fire in the street normally, but if you're drunk and you're part of a. crowd that whose basketball team just. lost in the final four, there's a good. chance you're going to do something like. that. And alcohol fuels a lot of the. problematic um unlawful crowds that turn. ugly. >> Yeah. Those the it's a lot of times it's. the winning team and that just. >> it's always very frustrating to see the. news after a city has won a big.

important championship. >> Yeah. uh important to the fans. And then. there's a big group of people like I've. been among those parties. Uh I remember. in Athens when the Braves won their. first World Series back in the day. >> Oh, that was such a great night. >> The streets flooded and it was amazing. >> Yeah. >> Uh but you know, we've seen that same. thing. All of a sudden, people are. flipping over cop cars. >> Yeah. Setting them on fire and it's like. I'm so happy that I'm going to set this. car on fire. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a shame. It's like uh.

ruining it for the best for the rest of. us. and the best of us. >> I saw that that same kind of thing. ruined the Keen Pumpkin Festival years. back. >> Oh, I think we talked about that. >> Did we? >> I think years ago we definitely. mentioned that. Otherwise, I don't see. how I would have known. >> Yeah, I I don't remember it at all, but. I'll go with your interpretation. >> Yeah, it might have been during our. early Pumpkin Chunkin coverage days. >> Didn't we do a whole episode on Pumpkin. Chunkin? >> Oh, yeah. We worked for Discovery. Channel. >> We sure did. >> They uh made it so.

>> Yes. Uh, you got anything else? >> Uh, I got nothing else. I thought that. was super interesting. I'm glad you. picked that one. Who was that? Kimberly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Thanks, Kimberly. Uh, but it was. interesting, Chuck. And thanks for doing. that. And, uh, I'll thank myself from. you as well. >> Okay. >> Since I just thank myself on behalf of. Chuck, I think it's time for listener, man. Uh, that's right. I was thinking, by the. way, and you diverted that to Kimberly. Okay. >> You deflected.

Uh, hey guys. I was listening to the. short stuff about color psychology, and. I got to say, I was a little. disappointed there was no mention of. drunk tank pink. >> Didn't know this. Uh, if it's not. obvious, it gets its name from being the. go-to color of choice for drunk tanks. >> Sure. >> Because of the noticeable [music]. calming effect it has on belligerent. people. >> I was so intrigued by this that I. painted my bathroom drunk tank pink. This is Hannah. Hannah sent in a. picture, too. >> Mhm. >> I didn't ask Hannah why [music] she felt. the need to do this, but she did it. >> Okay. Uh there's a book called Drunk. Tank Pink by author Adam Alter that.

dives into the psychology behind it. And. I think you would both find this super. interesting. >> Man, I'm I'm sorry we missed that cuz. that is awesome. >> I agree. Uh and by the way, Hannah got. tickets to our show in Akran, Ohio as a. birthday present for her partner. >> Awesome. >> Who had been listening since he was 15. years old. >> Wow. >> And he's now 72. >> That's right. Uh and asked if we could. give an onstage shout out. and Hannah. Sadly, we don't do that because we get a. lot of requests and it's no fun sitting. around as an audience member for 10.

minutes while we read people's names. >> Really isn't. >> So, we're going to do it right here and. wish a very future happy birthday to uh. Isaac uh Kenice. >> Nice. Happy birthday, Isaac. That was. quite magnanimous of you, Chuck. Yeah, because we usually don't do it on the. episode either, but [music] since Drunk. Tank Pink was such a great email, Hannah, we want to say happy happy. birthday to Isaac. And uh we hope you. both have a great time in Akran. >> Yes. Yeah. We'll see you guys there. Make sure you stand up and go drunk Hank.

Pink in the middle of the show. >> Oh, no. Don't. >> If you want to be like Hannah, you can. send us an email, too. Say whatever you. like in it. Uh and we will love it. Just. send it off to stuffartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite [music] shows.