How Alchemy Worked | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And we are here to enchant you in. this very special episode of Stuff You. Should Know, which we like to also call. the facts of life, too. >> Yeah. I mean, alchemy, I think a very. appropriate topic. Taking something uh.

mundane and turning it into something. fantastic. >> Oh, yeah. I guess we are kind of. alchemists in that sense. Or were you. talking about a different podcast? >> No, no, no. I was talking about what I. what I aim to accomplish today. >> Hey, man. Not only do you aim it you or. aim for it, you hit it right on the. head. >> Yeah. Uh, alchemy, baby. Let's do it. >> Clumsy attempt at a compliment. Yeah. Well, yeah. When we're talking about. alchemy or alchemists,

for me at least, and I would assume most. people, kind of conjures images of like. some some magician wearing like a a robe. with stars and moons on it, maybe even a. pointy hat to match. >> Sure. >> He's lit by candle light. He's in a. strange little laboratory. He's doing. all sorts of weird stuff to basically. create some sort of magical potion or do. something like that, right? If you know. a little more about it, maybe you think. of um charlatans who trick people into. investing in their alchemical schemes of.

turning, you know, lead into gold. But. um it turns out that there's a lot more. to it than I ever realized. And the. people involved were. not they were a lot more interesting and. a lot less dumb and fraudulent than than. history has kind of cast them as. >> Yeah. I I always thought of alchemy as. um just from what I knew as a youngster. which was just turning something like a. a boring metal into gold like you were.

talking about. >> But it is I think interesting that uh. modern science now looks back and said. and says hey you know what I mean sure. it was a lot of bunk and BS involved uh. but some of the foundations of modern. chemistry were there even though that. wasn't their intention really. >> Yeah. And you can also make a pretty. strong case that the alchemists were the. ones who laid the groundwork for the. scientific method. >> Yeah, in some ways. Sure. What's cool. about it too is that, you know, the. Europeans, the medieval European, you.

know, monks and sages and scholars are. the ones you typically think of, at. least in the West, when you think of. alchemy. But it's a I don't want to say. worldwide, but it it really kind of ties. together traditions from a bunch of. different parts of the world into a mad. pursuit for immortality and glory. >> Yeah, totes. So we should say that um. you can kind of trace the western. tradition of alchemy, the Europeans as.

as you think of it um all the way back. to Egypt. Egypt was like the starting. point for the western tradition but. Egypt even um seemed to get it from. other places specifically even even back. before Egypt. It seems like China and. India uh were possibly in on the pursuit. for immortality which seems to be the. thing that initially gave alchemy like. its birth. >> Yeah. And they may have called it like. you know the art or something like that. or may maybe you know some other word.

that they had that meant you know some. sort of transformation might be taking. place. >> Um the word alchemy itself was first. used in Arabic uh and then eventually. French and English in medieval times. Uh. but yeah, I think it's interesting that. it followed that route. And it's also. not surprising that, you know, China was. one of the first to get involved in. something like this because I feel like. anytime we're talking about ancient um. practices, China always seems to be sort. of leading the way in one way or the. other.

>> Indeed. Um, one of the reasons China was. so heavy into it was because the the. early alchemical. um like pursuits or purposes were to. create an elixir for immortality. The. reason they cared so much about that was. because um the country had a huge dowist. population and daoism is very much. interested in achieving immortality one. way or another. And so China and its uh. alchemists put together mercury,

arsenic, sulfur and said, "Here, drink. this." Uh, a lot of times and surely a. lot of people died from drinking those. things, right? I mean, you can't drink a. a concoction of mercury and still, you. know, just wipe your mouth with the back. of your hand and walk off like time to. get to work, you know? >> Yeah. I'm sure I'm sure there were some. people that suffered under uh al alchemy. experiments over time. Uh but they also you know on the other. side and this is sort of the um the plus.

side and minus side of some of these. experiments. They also whether or not. purposefully or not gave us things we. still use today um like you know. potassium nitrate. So they sort of. accidentally discovered gunpowder and. ammonium chloride which is used today as. nitrogen in fertilizer like for farms. and stuff like that. Mhm. So yeah, there. were that is kind of a tradition in. alchemy of you know they were trying to. do something else but they still found. useful stuff that we still you know make. or use today. And China's whole jam with.

alchemy kind of started to dry up as. Buddhism spread uh throughout the. country because Buddhism is much more. focused on rebirth and mellowing out. about the whole immortality thing. And. so the pursuit of, you know, immortality. through special elixir just kind of. became a moot point or a moo point. Sorry. >> Uh yeah. I mean, I guess the Buddhists. were like, "Yeah, maybe it's really not. possible to live forever. Maybe we. should set our goals a little more. reasonably.".

>> Right. Let's just pretend like we don't. care about living forever. uh as far as. India goes uh they were also not seeking. immortality and they were also kind of. like post uh Buddhist China like let's. try and promote health let's try and. cure some disease um maybe we can try. and transfer something into gold uh but. you know you'll see that kind of popping. up that's why I think a lot of people. the first thing they think of is turning. something into gold because that was the. pursuit of a lot of alchemists because. gold was so revered uh either as like.

you know the the the best metal. Uh, go ahead and make your white snake joke. >> I wasn't going to. I was just thinking. of of gold wearing a t-shirt that says. the best metal. >> Yeah. With like the devil's hands. The. devil devil horns fingers. >> Sure. >> Uh, and and you know, also thinking. like, you know, perhaps like drinking. something that uh maybe liquid gold, but. it's really not liquid gold. It just. turned the color gold could make you.

healthier or maybe live forever. Yeah. And in India they were trying to make. gold not to get rich but because like. you were saying they were trying to um. balance health, restore health like it. was just associated with healthy living. essentially. Gold was. >> Yeah. >> So then um we reached the Mediterranean. that was another ancient place and by. the time Alexander the Great invaded. Egypt in 3:22 B.CE E um they found. pretty quickly that the Egyptians had.

already been developing their own. tradition of alchemy for a while. And. the Greeks said, "Hey, I like your. style. Let's mix together our philosophy. and our understanding of physics and. astrology with your alchemy and let's. produce something really great that. medieval monks are really going to go. nuts for.". >> Yeah. And I think this is like I know. we're going to say this quite a bit, but. I think they were these early scientists. were taking a stab at at some at. something, you know, like sure there.

were charlatans and stuff like that, but. this was so early on in the game like. science was brand new and they were. like, "Hey, let's try this thing and see. if it works out." Uh, and maybe didn't. always follow modern best practices, but. you can't expect them to either. So, like, I don't know. I feel like over. time on this ep on this uh podcast. period, we've kind of tried to shine a. little bit of light on some of this. stuff is like, hey, they're they were. doing their best back then, trying to. get. >> trying to get involved in science at. least. Uh. >> right, at least they were doing.

something, you lazy s. >> Yeah, exactly. Um I mean, this is when. the first books on it came out. There. was one called uh the translation is. natural and mystical things by an. Egyptian named Bolos of Mind. This is. around 200 B.CE. Uh a lot of this was. again about making you know um valuable. metals like gold and silver. >> but again it was uh it was the first. kind of preserved writing that we have. on this. >> Yeah. Right. No for sure. And uh he was. also somebody who wrote pretty.

straightforward about alchemy and the. recipes and the processes which um would. come to be very rare as alchemy. developed. It became much more. secretive. >> Yeah. But this um Greco Egyptian. creation, this melding of uh different. traditions to create this this specific. kind of alchemy, it's called henistic. alchemy that laid the foundation for. western alchemy to come. Um one of the. other big things that came out of it or. another indicator of how important it.

was is there was this kind of legendary. figure that developed among the medieval. um alchemists, the monks. Um, his name. was Hermes Tris Magestos, which is a. great name. Not a good hotel check-in. name, but it's a it's a great name. regardless. >> Could you spell it again, sir? >> Like, how many times are you going to. hear that? >> Right. And you would say it just like. that, too. Like real uncertain and. unsteady like Hermes, I think. Um, so it was a combination, a.

straightup combination of th or toth, I. think th the Egyptian god who invented. writing, the one with the ibis bird. head. >> Yeah. >> And Hermes, the Greek messenger of the. gods. Like this was a complete synret. syncization of those two. And later. medieval monks would ascribe like. alchemical text having been written by. Hermes T. >> Yeah, Hermes T. That's a that's a better. check-in name by far. Really? >> Is that tea, sir? or te e.

>> I think it means like Hermes third the. best I I think is what tis meisto. translates to. >> all right that's pretty good. >> and this is this is one of those. episodes too Chuck where when we say. words we might accidentally cause. somebody to go poof and something either. appears or disappears so everybody be. prepared for something to vanish. >> yeah I agree uh and no one knew it that. you know like when you look back on. stuff like this it's kind of hard to. parse out like who was who was first who. is influencing who it's just sort of.

spread around the world. There there's. is a theory that um India's belief. system was basically just sort of um. brought over as a maybe not as a book. but you know brought over wholesale from. protoarans in central Asia and they were. in the area between four and 5,000 years. ago. So it's you know I don't I don't. know if there's a lot to be gained from. sort of debating who was coming up with. what first you know. >> right? Yeah. Uh yeah, I mean it does. really matter. It's it's those.

historians, they're kind of fixated on. that kind of thing. >> Um but you know, it is interesting to. wonder like where culture came from. because so much of it influences so much. else, not just in alchemy but in in all. things basically. But um. >> you mentioned Bolos of Mende and he. >> actually came after the guy who uh the. western tradition of alchemy is kind of. like based on like this guy was the guy. He's like, "Here's how it's done. This. is the ground rules for alchemy, okay,

everybody?" His name was Zoamos of. Panopoulos. Um, and Zoamos of Penopoulos wrote. something like 28 books on alchemy. And. for a while, they were like, "We've only. got a couple of letters of this guy, but. we knew he was brilliant." Um, apparently they've been finding his. stuff all over the Arabic world um in. libraries uh that they didn't realize. they had it before, but a lot of his. writings have recently been. rediscovered. Yeah. And his stuff, he's. another one of those that was pretty. detailed in his writing. And to have.

like stuff like this preserved is is. pretty amazing. >> Uh he was because he was an alchemist, obviously transforming metals or or you. know, trying to transform metals. Uh but. he like I said, he was pretty specific. He would have uh writeups on like. exactly what tools he was using, on what. methods he was using. Uh, a lot of this. stuff was obviously uh repurposed from. the kitchen like kind of cooking stuff. or maybe craft work, not the van, >> uh, but you know, crafting and, uh, like. >> like a bedazzler.

>> Yeah, like a bedazzler or perfume. making. And he credited a lot of this. stuff with a a Jewish woman named uh, Maria. And he was like, you know, a lot. I've taken a lot of her methods and a. lot of her methods also transferred over. to early methods of uh of cooking, like. you know, French and Italian cooking. methods. >> Yeah. Like a water bath. A balmarie or a. bano Maria is, you know, like you know. when you melt chocolate chips in a pan. that's inside a pan that has water in. it. >> Yeah. So you don't scorch it, right?

>> Exactly. You can thank the Jewish woman. named Maria who has lost a history aside. from Zoamos of Penopoulos's writings, but she apparently taught him. >> Yeah. And he he said, "Hey, you can use. a lot of this stuff to to not make gold. from lead.". >> Yeah. I mean, he he definitely came up. with some processes that he figured out. himself. And like you said, these people. were taking a stab at it. They were. like, "What happens if I do this and. what what happens if I if I try that. same thing with a different metal or a. different powder or something like.

that?" So they were experimenting. They. were starting the beginnings of. experimentation that would lead to what. we understand it as a science. Zozimos. was doing this. Like he was one of the. first to to do this. Um I also saw a. definition. I'm not sure if I sent it to. you or not, but he had an explanation or. a definition of what alchemy is. He said. it was the study of the composition of. waters, movement, growth, embodying and. disemboding, drawing the spirit from. bodies and bonding the spirits within.

bodies. And what he was saying, like if. you stop and think about it, it's. actually pretty comprehensible. Yeah. He. he's saying alchemy is the study of, you. know, all the things we've observed. about the world around us trying to. figure out how that stuff works. Like. how does a soul come into a body and. become attached to it? How does it leave. it after death? what's the deal with. water? Uh that kind of stuff. So like it. was just them seeking to apply. essentially a protoscientific. understanding of the world as they. understood it.

>> Yeah. Like what happens if I distill. this thing down to its base form or uh. create, you know, you're going to hear a. lot of talk about vapors. Um like, you. know, boil something or heat something. to create a vapor and then smash it. together with this thing. And now I've. just learned, you know, I'm trying to. make gold maybe, but I've all of a. sudden discovered that uh it changes. properties of both materials if I. combine these two things. And while they. may not have understood what the heck. that meant, chemistry later on would. say, "Oh, actually what they were doing.

was this.". >> Right. Exactly. Yeah. So um this whole. this whole jam that was laid down by. Zamos and Bolos and the the early. Egyptians who eventually kind of. combined their stuff with the Greek. understanding of the world which is. really important because Aristotle's. thoughts about you know what made matter. up like earth, wind, fire and air the. four elements. >> that was the understanding of the world. that they were working from. they were.

trying to figure things out within that. context. So, Aristotle had a huge. contribution to alchemy early on which. as science would later kind of um decide. was just a huge wrong turn at the outset. especially considering that Democratus. who was around the same time as. Aristotle. Remember him? He was the one. who's like everything's made up of. atoms. I just am not going to use the. word atoms yet. >> Right. Exactly. Uh good place for a. break. Yeah, >> I think so. All right, we'll take a.

break and we'll uh talk a little bit. about the move into Europe right after. this. [Music]. Okay, Chuck. So things were just kind of. hanging around from you know 300s BCE um.

where the Egyptians and the Greeks had. kind of come together and created that. version of alchemy. Um and eventually. the Arab world started to rise and it. started to go over here and go over. there and wherever it went it kind of. took this and that from each culture. that it found interesting. And one of. the things that they did, they showed up. in Egypt and um they said, "Hey, I like. this alchemy stuff you guys have been. doing for the last few hundred years. Teach that to us." And that actually. helped lay the the groundwork for the.

incredible amount of learning that took. place around this time in the Arab. world. >> Yeah. And you know, logging stuff, describing stuff uh that would later on. again, you know, lay the foundation for. for legit chemists of the future. Uh and. one of their theories was that. production of uh different kinds of. matter starts out basically, you know, with the basics which are heat, coldness, dryness, moisture and. combining these in different ways are.

going to have different outcomes uh like. to produce those vapors. You're going to. have uh cold water basically and combine. that with some sort of uh hot moist air. to create a vapor. And they would, you. know, mix these things together and they. would combine it with uh mercury or. sulfur or something like that and trying. to make gold once again, >> right? I think it's called chrysio. pouya. >> Yeah, that's the the technical term I. think for for trying to make gold. >> Yeah, exactly. Um and there are a couple.

of big big names. There are a few big. names, but two that still made it all. the way through history. Razis who's. known as the greatest physician of the. Muslim world at the time. He was an. alchemist. Uh a contemporary I believe. of his named Jabir. Uh he was well known. as a a early scientist. Some people call. him the father of chemistry. Um and. these guys were they were contributing. by saying like hey don't just throw a. handful of powder at something like you.

know do a thumbnail and and use the same. amount every time. just just little. contributions like that. Um what was a. huge contribution too was that they took. a lot of these ancient texts, translated. them into Arabic and then those were. eventually translated into Latin, which. is when things started to spread like. wildfire throughout Europe in like the. 12th century. >> Yeah, I promised talk of Europe and I. just forgot we had to stop by Arabia. first. Mhm. >> But this is beginning in about the 12th.

century when it moved into Europe. And. this was a time when uh Europe was. shifting you know to a university sort. of a more academic uh way of looking at. things and away from the monasteries who. were I guess some of the more early you. know science-minded people. >> Yeah. and Christian scholars at the time. in Europe um they started to become a. little more open to say like hey maybe. we should you know uh look to other. texts ancient texts even look look from. other cultures to try and see if we can. learn something from them.

>> and so they started experimenting with. uh mineral acids uh boric acids sulfuric. acid stuff like that uh and trying to. develop um elixirs and this is where. you'll hear more about things like you. know um immortality like the elixir of. life, philosopher stone, which we'll get. into, and stuff like that. >> Yeah. And we should say, now that I. think of it, I'll bet a lot of this. transfer of knowledge came from the. Crusades. Europe just showed up and was. like, "Give us everything," including.

all of your books on alchemy. You know, >> that would be my guess. But yeah, around. this time, so I I read that the European. alchemists following this tradition. believed that in the ancient world, they. had already um found what was called the. philosophers stone, which just sounds so. cool. It'd make a really cool like title. for a Harry Potter book or a Willie the. Wizard book or something, you know? Are. >> you making philosophers stone? >> Um no, I think it's just kind of like it. it's just na it fits naturally, you.

know. >> Well, that was the original title of the. Harry Potter book. Uh, sorcerer stone. Okay. I That's why I asked if you were. joking. >> Not the sorcerer stone. It's the. philosopher stone, wasn't it? >> No, they changed it to the sorcerer. stone from the philosopher stone. >> What a ripoff. Okay. Well, we're talking about the. philosopher stone, and that was a term. for this substance that supposedly was. all over the place, but we just didn't. recognize the the magical properties of. it that you could turn immediately. anything into like gold or whatever the.

perfect version of that thing was. Because that was the thing. Gold to the. alchemists was the perfect version of a. metal. And all other metals, whether. it's lead, tin, silver, whatever, are we. we're seeing them in the process of. moving naturally into gold. That's how. they understood it. What they were. trying to do is figure out how those. processes worked so they could speed it. up, >> right? And do it do it by like that's. where they got the idea of taking lead.

and turning it into gold. That's what. they were trying to do was move lead. into its more perfect natural state. which was gold. And the way that they. thought you could do that was with the. philosopher stone which would make that. happen automatically. >> Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that um. that they would operate a little more in. secrecy later on and this is kind of. where we are now uh now is they would. operate maybe they would have their. apprentices and stuff like that but it. was kind of shrouded in secrecy a lot of. times. uh they would use like codes and. symbols and metaphor and stuff when they.

were uh like recording their. experiments. Uh and there were a handful. of u European alchemists that you know. we should probably go over a little bit. Uh the first of which is Albertus Magnus. or Albert the Great. He was a German. philosopher in the 13th century and he. was a frier, a Dominican frier and he. studied the the work of these Arab. alchemists because like we said it kind. of came over from there and the ancient. Greek philosophers which you know as we. mentioned kind of melded those two world.

of philosophy and science or this kind. of science. >> Right. Right. So um there was another. guy I mean there's a bunch that we could. talk about John D. Arthur D, Roger. Bacon. They were all alchemists who. contributed to our understanding of the. world. Um, one I hadn't heard of was. Jead. Tad. Jealad, I think I got it that. second time. >> It sounds good to me, but German is my. non-spe. >> He was um he was uh he was trying to.

figure out chrysopou chrisopooya. um which is again transforming things. into gold. The thing is, and this is a. really good example or way to point this. out, he was a Franciscan monk. He didn't. care anything about getting rich. As a. matter of fact, he had taken a vow of. poverty. Um, so so many times the. alchemists are like all they wanted to. do is like just make gold and be rich. They were just greedy magicians. essentially. >> No, that's not the case. They wanted to.

create gold to end poverty. They wanted. to find the elixir of life to end. disease. like they had really big big. goals that they were trying to reach and. he was a good example of that. He wanted. to give the Catholic Church the ability. to make gold so that they could fund. themselves better essentially. >> Yeah. I took a vow of poverty in my 20s. I think you did too. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It was forced on me. >> Uh so one of the things that he did too. which is pretty interesting I think is.

he God talked about sort of distilling. things down to their purest form. Mhm. >> He did that with booze and he distilled. it down to aqua uh how would you. pronounce that? Vita. >> aqua vite. >> Aqua vite. Um he called it the fifth. essence of wine or the uh quinta. essentia. And this goes back to. Aristotle again. This idea that um you. know it's something different than those. four classical elements that we're. talking about. And I I forgot how he. pronounced his name but let's just call.

him Dr. R. uh said that, hey, when I. create this distilled wine down to its. purest form of alcohol and I put meat in. that stuff, the meat just kind of stays. like it is. It stops this decay. And it. he wasn't he didn't think he had tapped. into a new way to preserve meat. He. thought like, hey, maybe this stops. things from aging and maybe this alcohol. is a cure all, >> right? He went on to create the Mai. >> Oh, nice. >> Another one. This guy's my favorite, Pariselus. Uh, his real name was Phil.

Philipus Theoprastus Orololis Bombastus. Von Ho Hohheim, >> but we'll call him Phil. >> Hohenheim. >> Hoenheim. >> Yeah. Well, he went by Paracelis. I. think we talked about him in our poison. episode or there was some episode. because he was famous for saying uh the. dose makes the poison like you can take. enough of anything and it's going to. kill you which is a really important. understanding at the time. But he was. one of the ones who led the way of. secrecy because he believed that what.

the alchemists were doing was dealing in. like the nature of the universe and that. this information was way too potent to. just have out there. So he was one of. the ones that led the charge in that. He. also was known as um questioning Galen's. thousand-year-old idea of the four. humors being the cause of disease. Paracelis was like, "No, I think that. there's like external factors involved, like maybe even little tiny bugs or. something like that that get in your. throat and then into your stomach and. then just really screwed things up down.

there." Yeah. >> Um, that's me paraphrasing him. That was. Paracelis. So, he was a a straightup. genius for his time. I'm a big fan. >> Yeah. I'm sure they came right back at. him and said, "No, no, silly man. It's. just black bile. That's the problem.". >> He's like, "You sure? Like, this other. stuff could be making us sick." He's. like again with the bile. >> Uh there was also Nicholas Flamel I. guess or Flaml I'm not sure how you. would pronounce that but. >> I think I think Fl Okay. Um he is the. one who is credited to have discovered.

the philosopher stone. Uh he was just a. mere book seller in the 14th and I guess. uh 15th centuries. >> and he said I got a book I got I. purchased a book and it was in a. language that was so hard to translate. It took me 21 years, but once I finally. cracked that code, in that book was the. information on how to produce the. philosopher stone. And this is what I. don't understand. He got rich, but did. he get rich off of selling this? Like.

that's what I couldn't figure out. >> No, the the later alchemists like. starting around the 17th century, they. created a legend about him saying that. he had created the philosopher stone. So. now he could turn anything into gold and. that's how he got rich. >> Yeah. But how did he where how did he. get rich? I still don't get. >> from. >> because he wasn't turning stuff into. gold. >> No. From what I saw, his wife was rich. >> Oh, >> that's the likeliest explanation. But. this legend grew up around him because.

he really was well known. He's recorded. historically as being very rich. kind of. suddenly uh they they endowed like a ton. of hospitals, a bunch of um schools, churches um that are some of them are. still around today. And he was known for. putting alche alchemical messages um. kind of encoded in the buildings like on. plaques or in archways or something like. that. Yeah. >> So he definitely was an alchemist. He. definitely was rich, but it was this.

legend that grew up around him that he. was one of the few who actually found. the the philosopher stone. I almost said. sorcerer stone, man. >> See, >> gets in there. >> Uh, another legend is that he perhaps. maybe lived to be 114, but um, records. say he was between 80 and 114. So, that's a pretty big uh, gap there. A. wide range. >> Yeah. >> 34 years. >> It is pretty pretty wide. But even 80. back in the 1400s, early 1400s is pretty.

respectable, I guess. >> No, agreed. >> So, we talked a little bit about the. philosopher stone. That was one thing. that as far as we know, no one ever. created, right? But all of the. alchemists in Europe were after this, trying to figure this out. While at the. same time also performing all these. other experiments just in case they. didn't figure out how to do the. philosopher stone, they were figuring. out how to do it the hard way, too. Um. there was also another thing that they. were famous for trying to create which. are called homunculi which are. essentially artificial people in.

miniature uh that they wanted to create. so that they could study how life begins. or um or like Zazamos had said you know. how the how the the spirit bonds to the. body like that's the kind of thing they. were trying to figure out by creating. many humans and they had all sorts of. >> I think it's fair to call it wacky ideas. of how to create a homunculus. >> I think it's pretty fun. I mean, the. word homunculus is fun in and of itself, but uh yeah, there's something called.

the book of the cow. Uh this is an. Arabic book in the 9th century uh that. apparently Plato had something to do. with. And there was a recipe for a. homunculus in there, which is one. hunculi. >> And it involved in siminating a a U, which is I guess that's a female sheep, right? >> Mhm. >> With human sperm. Don't ask how. I'm not. really sure how that happened, but I'm. sure they had. >> not too many ways to do that back then. >> I'm sure they had their methods and you. would have a birth and it would be some. sort of shapeless form at that point.

And then you need to treat it with. specific stuff, uh, materials, put it in. a glass container, and then it grows. into a tiny person. >> Yeah. I don't think that this ever. worked, but they some I I guarantee some. people tried it for sure. >> Oh, I bet. I mean, you have to have some. excuse for when you're found with the. sheep, right? Oh yeah. Oh my god. Oh. Uh, that's going to stay with me like. sorcerer stone. Chuck, every time I see. the word you, ew we, it reminds me there.

was this happy days episode where Richie. was writing in chalk on the sidewalk a. message to some girl that he liked. Well, in a place where he knew that she. was going to walk home from high school, right? >> I remember this. and he he drew I and. then the heart and then the U like a. sheep and the girl comes up on him while. he's s sitting there finishing it and. she's like I love sheep and he's like. it's a you I love you but the way that. she said I love sheep just always it.

stuck with me like the weird thing you. said about um inciminating sheep and. sorcerer stone will always stuck with me. >> and and it probably taught you the. lesson like never put yourself out there. with a. That's right. Yeah, that was definitely. the line you got from Richie Cunningham. For sure. >> I to I I had forgotten completely about. that and as you started to tell that. story, I completely remembered it. Just. like flooded back to me. That's funny. There. >> there's one other one, too. This was a. Brady Bunch one that I always think of.

whenever I think of Ihe Heart Sheep when. I see the word you. So, we're like three. or four inceptions from this original. thing. Um, there was a a Brady Bunch where Greg. and his friend stole a rival school's. mascot, which was a goat. >> Okay, I remember that. >> It just so happened that like a bunch of. officials from the school were came over. for coffee to the Brady house while the. goat was there. And they had to move it. from room to room and hide it. And Greg. finally gets discovered with the goat in.

a closet holding it in this really. awkward position. and the face he makes. when they open the the closet door. It's. I I can't imagine how many takes they. did to get it just that perfect. But. it's a it's one of the great alltime. shots of 70s television if you ask me. >> Did the goat Was he wearing like a like. a cape or something? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. >> Yeah. I'm going to send you that clip. because it's worth watching. >> All right. So, I guess we need to take. our second break. >> Yes. >> And then we'll come back with more talk.

of 70s television right after this. [Music]. All right. So um we have talked um sort. of hinted at the fact that alchemy is.

not looked back as it was for many years. and there's a more modern sort of view. of it as like that hey they were doing. the best they can at least that's what. Chuck said and some of the foundations. they laid for modern chemistry are. actually kind of valuable. >> Uh and that's kind of where we're at. now. Um, a lot of like metallergical. processes were created that were. legitimate. Um, maybe accidentally. creating medicines or things that led to. medicines happened which is also. valuable. >> Mhm. >> What else? >> Oh, uh, well, I mean just the very fact.

that these guys were carrying out. experiments like before then. philosophers just said like Aristotle. like this is what everything's made of. Earth, wind, fire, water. >> Trust me. >> No one asked him exactly. No one asked. him how do you know that or anything. like that and he really you know I'm not. saying he was a fraud or anything but he. didn't use any scientific. experimentation. It was the alchemists. who started that. They they were the. ones who started working in the lab with. specific measures of materials and then. very importantly recording their.

results. Um so they were documenting. what they were finding. These are all. just the the basic outlines of the. scientific method today. >> Yeah. And I mean the word chemistry. actually comes from alchemy uh in about. the 1780s which is pretty interesting. >> And alchemy is also like the other. definitions of alchemy um doesn't it. also mean like some sort of romantic. chemistry that can happen? >> Yeah. You know like romantic chemistry, right? So, a romcom, what they have in.

there, romantic chemistry, that. understanding and use of the term. chemistry actually predates the use of. the word chemistry as far as the. scientific discipline goes by almost 200. years. >> Yeah, it's a good point. And there were. also some pretty major players that we, you know, rever as our scientific. forebears that were involved in stuff. like this who maybe tried to keep a. little quiet like Isaac Newton. And this. is like well into the 18th century when. Isaac Newton was doing his thing. >> and he was like, "Yeah, maybe we could.

make gold from other materials and maybe. I'm not going to, you know, I'm also. into some occult and spiritual con. concepts, but I'm going to kind of play. that down and keep that all under the. table for now and it will only be. discovered later.". >> Yeah. Underneath his ruffled puffy. pirate shirt, he had the best metal. t-shirt on. Well, and people that were. in charge of sort of keeping up with his. story and his records, they kind of. buried that stuff over the years to. protect his image, didn't they? >> Yeah. Newton was such a genius that he.

was pursuing two lines of inquiry into. the nature of the universe. One like the. the physics genius, the mathematician. that we know and love is like the. world's first true scientist. >> At the same time, he was pursuing. alchemy as well. like he was looking. into the whole thing like. >> hedging his bets. >> Yeah. Essentially he was trying to. figure it out. He he apparently believed. or his paper said that he thought. alchemy was this ancient wisdom that God.

had directly given humans and that. alchemists were figuring out were. learning like that this was like divine. a divine delivery of like knowledge. essentially and like like you said his. papers were kept private just to. preserve his image for centuries and. then finally they started to get. published and people started to. understand him a little more and I saw a. really interesting quote at some point. that one of his biographers said that. Isaac Newton was not the first.

scientist. He was the last alchemist. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. And I mean it doesn't necessarily. make sense to you if you when you first. hear, but it's very much like how um say. a bird evolved out of a dinosaur bird. The dinosaur bird was not a true bird. The first bird was the first true bird. Yeah. And in that same way, the point. they were making was Newton was the. thing that the first real scientists. evolved out of, but he was not that. He. was part alchemist, too.

>> Yeah, it's a good point. Uh there were, you know, even some more modern world. leaders that were like, you know, these. guys were trying to make gold, and I. know it didn't work out, but like maybe. we could try because it'd be great if we. had a lot of gold. um Maxmillian II and. Rudolph II. And this was 16th and 17th. century uh Holy Roman Empire stuff where. they were like, "Hey, why don't we just. sort of uh help financially support. these alchemists because you never know, maybe they can maybe they can tap into.

this elixir of life or get us untold. amounts of gold.". >> Yeah. I also saw Henry V 6 um not only. uh gave some like I think 15 or 16. alchemists official royal licenses to. produce alchemical gold. He took what. they used and minted it into coins. So. supposedly there are coins. >> No, it was a combination of mercury and. copper sulfate with a little bit of. water and it produces some alloy once.

you clean it up that looks a lot like. gold but it's much lighter. He he like. there's coins out there still today to. collect that were basically alchemy gold. that that Henry the 6 um commission and. that Britain's gold coins were made out. of for a little while. >> which ironically are probably worth a. lot of money. >> I would guess so and that is ironic. isn't it. >> yeah a little bit don't you think. >> yeah I would even say more than a little. bit I'd say a lot of bit. >> okay uh the academy royale de sciences.

in France is founded in 1666. And that's. when they said, "All right, >> um, this philosopher stone stuff is not. going to be in our curriculum anymore. >> We're not going to look at astrology. We're going to move into the modern era, uh, of the 17th century version of the. modern era.". >> And that's what they did. They kind of. shut all that stuff down um, as like the. official scientific as far as official. scientific pursuit academically goes. >> Yeah. And the whole thing kind of. continued on. The 19th century still had.

alchemists in it. Um, the upshot of that. whole thing was that they were frauds, charlatans, and they were really the. ones who gave alchemy a bad name to our. modern ears. But also, science when it. was really when it really developed, it. it had a tendency to turn on its. predecessors, the things that it evolved. out of, like witches, herbalists, that. kind of thing. Um, same thing with. alchemist. Like, it was just so dumb and. and backward. Science is the the the. truth. Um it just basically disavowed.

alchemy even though it directly evolved. out of alchemy. >> Yeah. >> But now it is nice kind of refreshing. that today science is ready to be like. yes it's a little embarrassing but this. is our grandfather. >> Yeah. Well you know I I feel like. grandfather is usually less embarrassing. than father. >> I don't know. It depends on the era the. grandfather's from because they can say. some really inappropriate stuff at. Thanksgiving, you know. >> Yeah. I I strive to be, if I ever am a. grandfather, just to be the sort of.

sweet daughtering old guy that everyone. just thinks is is fun and funny. >> You definitely will be, man. No doubt. about it. >> I think you're also though one of those. grandfathers who's also a beloved dad, too, which is. >> Well, so far so good. >> That's hard to do. >> Yeah. >> Uh, one more thing about alchemy. I when. I was studying listened to a bunch of. dungeon synth. I know I've mentioned it. before, >> okay? But in particular, I was listening. to albums by Witchbolt. >> Okay.

>> It's really good stuff, man. If you're. into any kind of like instrumental synth. music, >> I am. >> You could do a lot worse than listening. to Witchbolt. >> All right. >> And then it also joged my memory. Um I. when I mentioned Dungeon Synth a couple. years ago, uh we got an email from. somebody named the Lone Enchanter who. has a Dungeon Synth label called High. Mage Productions. and you can go check. them out on Band Camp. But they sent us. a couple of jingles that apparently were. lost because I sent them to Jerry and. she's like, I have never heard either of.

these. So, >> we can look for some High Mage. Production jingles coming in in the. future. Thank you very much for that. You. >> fantastic. I'm going to check out. Witchbolt. What a great name. >> It really is. And their album covers are. amazing, too. >> Oh, I bet. >> Okay. Well, that's it for Alchemy, everybody. We did it, Chuck. And we're. done. And that means it's time for. listener mail. Uh, this is a correction on me. I can't. believe I missed this. I feel um like a. dummy. Hey guys, when you mentioned.

Heavy Metal Parking Line on the Sunset. Strip episode, the greatest heavy metal. short documentary of all time, uh, Chuck. attributed it to Penelopey Spirus, uh, she made Decline of the Western. Civilization. >> Mhm. >> So, I I goofed that up. I was totally. thinking of uh, Decline of Western. Civilization. Another great documentary. But have you seen Heavy Metal Parking. Lot then? >> I have. I just misattributed the the. filmmaker. Apparently, uh Jeff Krulick. and John Hayne made heavy heavy metal.

parking lot. It's beyond satire and. encapsulates a moment in time that was. magical. Uh they also made and this I. didn't know. Uh they also made a. documentary called Neil Diamond Parking. Lot. No. So that's pretty fun. I'm going. to have to check that one out. Uh that. is from uh that's with best regards from. Matthew T from Cleveland, Ohio with a. PS. I love you both very very much. >> Thanks a lot, Matthew T. Right back at. you. Uh and if you want to be like. Matthew T and correct Chuck. Chuck loves. that kind of thing. You can wrap it up,

spank it on the bottom as an email and. send it off to stuff. podcastartradio.com. [Music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].