Graffiti: So Cool It’s A Pillar of Hip Hop | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to [music] the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And we are. doing a wild style today here on Stuff. You Should Know. One of those episodes. where [music] it's like this this topic. is cooler than we are, but we're going. to give it our best to try to get across. how neat it really is. >> Oh man. Uh, I'm not going to say when.

Maybe you can guess, but there's one. portion of this that it'll be the most. like middle-aged white dude thing ever. >> Okay. I'm I'm looking forward to it. because I I can't guess. >> Okay. I'll see if you you'll probably. know when I go into my voice. >> Okay. Is it that old witch voice that. you like to do? >> No, no, no, no. You'll know the voice. >> All right. Is Is it an Italian thing? >> No, not Italian. >> All right. I'll figure it out then. We're talking graffiti, obviously, Chuck. I don't know if if everybody. knows that.

>> Yeah. I mean, we covered some of this in. our hip-hop episode, uh, for sure, but. this is, you know, one of the pillars of. hip-hop culture, as we'll see, but, uh, graffiti needed its own thing. And. graffiti in the United States, we. basically think of as sort of a late60s. East Coast thing. Uh, and this isn't one. of those things. I do see where Livia. put in like cave drawings, but I'm not. even going to talk about that. >> Sure. >> Because I was like, come on, Livia. Uh. but uh very good point here in Mexico in.

like the 1930s where mural art and um. sort of public art during the Mexican. Revolution was a big thing and so Chuco. kids in the 1930s sort of brought that. same style to LA and other cities, >> right? >> In the 1930s and 40s um before the spray. can was invented. But I feel like that. is a genuine sort of precursor to what. we know as modern graffiti. >> Yeah. because they were well they were. writing on walls sometimes they were. using paint and brushes. Um markers. didn't exist, spray cans didn't exist.

yet, but they were using what they had a. lot of times just to tag their. neighborhood as like this this turf. belongs to this gang. But they added. flourishes that kind of gave rise to. some of the details and touches that are. still around in graffiti today. So, it. is definitely a valid um river that. flowed into this larger river that flows. into the ocean of graffiti that's on. planet Earth, which would be the hip-hop. culture. [laughter]. >> Uh, I mentioned the spray can. That's.

obviously a vital part of graffiti. That. was invented in 1949. by a painter in Illinois, a paint. company owner named Ed Seymour and his. wife. And I tried to find her name. What's her name? >> Bonnie. >> Oh, I couldn't find it. You found. Bonnie? >> I had to look really hard. Yes. But I. found it. Bonnie. Isn't that a lovely. name? >> Nice work. Yeah, I do love the name. Bonnie. >> Uh, but they said they were trying to. coat um radiators with an aluminum. coating. So, they invented the spray. can. And right away, like, you know,

people that were protesting or maybe um. artists on the down low uh because you. can hide a can pretty easily. Uh you can. work with it very quickly. It works on a. lot of different kinds of surfaces. So. all of a sudden spray cans, you know, really paved the way. >> Yeah. Possy from Happy Days famously was. a Clandistan artist using spray paint. >> Oh, really? I don't remember that one. >> Oh, I could Hey, I could have seen that. being a Happy Days episode. >> Yeah, but would have been Yeah, exactly. Maybe Ralph Malf might have gotten.

talked into trying it and then just. freaked out. But. >> probably would have been Richie. >> Yeah, I guess so. Man, that was such a. good show. >> Like a real lesson learner episode. >> Yeah. Uh, yeah. and the fawns who you'd. think would be like a spray paint. graffiti artist like vandal. >> is the one who talks to Richie like. that's not cool. >> Hey, [laughter]. >> so there's a lot of advantages to using. spray paint. Um that's why graffiti. really kind of started. This is like. where its roots really took root. Um.

markers are another thing that people. use. Um and most people think of spray. paint with graffiti, but markers are. important. Um, and they didn't come. around until the 1950s. So, you had. spray paint before you had markers, which is surprising to me. And if you. want a nice little trivia question, Magic Marker was the first marker for. commercial sale starting in 1953. >> That makes sense because that's became. sort of the uh proprietary eponym in a. way. >> Exactly. Yeah, for sure.

>> Not so much anymore, I feel like, but in. our era, for sure. >> Yeah, because it's fun to say. >> Yeah, it's a it's a marker that creates. magic. >> Exactly. I didn't really consider markers as. graffiti, but I was like, yeah, like. every. >> everything like on the inside of a a. martyr train or a New York uh subway. car, like that's all marker. >> All marker. Yeah, it is. It's very. important um for what's called handstyle. as we'll see. >> That's right. But we need to talk about. cornbread, right? >> Yeah. So, there's a guy named Daryl. McCrae who will tell anybody who sits.

still long enough that he was the person. who invented graffiti. >> Yeah. >> And he makes a really good case. So, unfortunately, there's some other people. who were doing the same thing at the. same time, but you could still say. Cornbread, which was his handle, his. tag. Um, was one of the very first. people who took up graffiti starting in. 1965. >> Yeah. He was but a 12-year-old. He's a. Philly guy. And he was in juvie. And um. in Juvie, he said, "I don't want this.

white bread. I want cornbread." My. grandmother made cornbread and I love. that stuff. So he got the nickname. cornbread. >> I don't think he got the cornbread. though. >> I doubt if he got the cornbread. That's. that's very labor intensive to make. cornbread. >> for sure. >> I mean compared to just opening up a bag. of white bread, you know. >> Also though, I think at places called. Youth Development Center, they don't. give you your preferred food. They give. you what you're going to eat. >> Yeah. Like Oliver Twist style. >> Yeah. No requests, please. >> No more. Uh so he took that nickname, started writing it at on the walls there.

at his institution that he was in. And. then when he got out in 1967, he would. take to the streets of Philly, writing. his name, cornbread. Uh especially like. if he knew that his uh sweetie pie was. on the bus, he would ride it along the. bus route so she could see that and be. impressed. >> Sometimes running alongside the the bus. >> Yeah. Like while it was going. Um other. bus lines. And that was sort of the, you. know, the beginning uh along as we'll. see and, you know, which was already.

happening in Spanish Harlem of sort of. the early point of graffiti, which is. like a name, you know, later on they. would call it a tag. >> And the point was to get that out in uh. as many places as you could and and like. you were super cool if you did it in. like a very risky or hard-to-reach place. like the wall in front of the cop shop. or the top of a water tower or something. like that. >> Yeah. And so you add in the flourishes. that Chuco kids came up with in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s in LA, um with getting.

your tag out there as many places as you. can. That's the that is definitely the. beginning of of um of graffiti. And this. is where most people point to as the. start of the whole thing in the 60s and. 70s in New York City. Um all of this. started to blossom. all these things. kind of came together and just the right. hands and graffiti uh became a thing. just slowly but surely. Um like you. said, some of the first people were just. writing their names and they would come. up with this tag and some of the.

earliest tags came from Spanish Harlem. where you would have your nickname and. then a number like Turk 182. Um and Turk would be your nickname, 182. would be the street you hailed from. Uh, I think Turk 182 was entirely made up. I. don't think it was a docu drama, but one. of the first two was Julio 204 and Taki. 183. >> Yeah, Taki 183. Uh, Taki was a nickname, a Greek nickname for Demetrius, still.

is. >> Uh, but Taki was a uh, this was in like. 69 or 70 was a delivery worker. So, Taki. went all over the city. So, it was a. really good way to get um the Taki 183. tag all over the place. And it got so. far and wide that Taki was actually part. of a a New York Times article in 1971. and all of a sudden it inspired people. saying, "Hey, like this is the cool new. thing to do on the street.". >> Yeah. Or else they hated Taki 183 for. defacing New York all over the place.

>> Good point. >> That same year that the article on Taki. 183 came out, um there was the first. graffiti crew kind of came together. Writer's Corner 188. They met at the. corner of Ottabbon and 188th Street, 188th Street as they say in New York. Um, and the crew was called WC 188. And. it was like one of the first ways that. um, people started sharing different. style tips and um, kinds of markers that. did different things. It was just the. first way that different people doing.

the same thing came together and figured. out how to do it better. >> Yeah. Uh, and like I said, it was sort. of a quantity over quality thing for a. while. Uh, I think that's sadly kind of. part of it now a little bit when I see. graffiti around Atlanta. There's some. really good stuff and also some some. really kind of not not so great tags. that I see a lot. >> Yeah. And more often than not, it's the. not so great ones, right? Kind of like. um watching adults skateboard. >> Oh god.

Yeah. I mean, man, Atlanta just doesn't. have the skateboarders. That's a West. Coast thing. I I never see I always see. those guys trying to do the tricks, but. they never land the tricks. Exactly. That's exactly like junky tags, which is. I think called toy in the um the. graffiti world. >> Oh, really? Toy. If your tag is just. sort of not great. >> Yeah. If it's just junky amateur-ish. graffiti, it's toy graffiti. >> Well, what if these people are like, "Hey, man. I'm not such a great artist. Lay off. I'm I'm trying." Well, they.

would say stop doing what you're doing. and go do something else then because. the streets are made for good graffiti, >> not toys, >> right? >> Uh the subway was where things got. really a little more like um artistic, I. guess. Uh riding on a subway train in. New York, uh you could obviously get. your name out, you know, to more people. because that's that subway's going all. over the place, >> right? Uh it's also risky and as we'll. see like risk is a big you know I. mentioned like the the wall in front of. the police station like risk is a big.

big part of it. Um because like as. you'll see like when they made great. efforts in the in the 70s and 80s in New. York to to stop this stuff it wasn't. like they were like oh boy we better. stop doing this graffiti. It was sort of. like game on man like this is what we're. looking for. Like now we know they're. after us, so it makes it even more sort. of challenging and risky. >> Yeah. I mean, these early graffiti. artists were by definition juvenile. delinquents to a person. So the idea of.

adding more challenges to them just. played exactly into their whole ethos, ethos, I could never remember. >> And to be clear that with this sub, I. just want to if you don't understand, they're they're not spray painting the. moving subway cars. They would break. into the rail yards at night and all of. a sudden you have this huge canvas just. sitting there. >> Yeah. Exactly. And like you said, a lot. of people would see it because that. subway car the next day would be. traveling all over New York. So that was. a big deal. That's kind of what you. think of when you think of uh late '7s,

early 80s graffiti in New York. Subway. cars is kind of traveling all over the. place with really cool colorful graffiti. on them. >> Totally. >> Do you want to um take an early break or. you want to keep talking and get into. some different kinds and styles? >> H maybe let's break down the styles. first. >> All right, let's do it. So, um it turns. out there's three categories of graffiti. uh in in order of um easiness to. increasing hardness. There's got to be a. better way to put it, but I'm leaving it. there. There's tags.

>> Yeah. >> Which, uh Livia calls very sterily basic. identifying signs. I love that one. >> Well, tags didn't come along till 1990. The word, >> right? But essentially, it's your. signature. It's your nickname spelled. out in a very stylized uh way specific. to you. That's what handstyle is. And. then when you use your handstyle to put. up that nickname in a certain stylized. way on the wall, that today at least.

that's a tag. That's one of the three. kinds of graffiti. >> Yeah. And before they called it tagging. in 1990, back in the day, as they say, uh they would call it hitting maybe or. bombing or just writing. >> Yep. Um, throwups, terrible name, is the. next kind. Uh, it can incorporate your. tag as like your signature, but it's. it's usually more than that. It's it's. tag plus. >> Um, a lot of times it's multiolor, like. two or three colors, maybe even more if. you've got the time. Um, it's, you know, it's more it's just simply said it's.

kind of more artistic. >> Yeah. And they're almost always like. bubbly letters from what I can tell. >> Uh, yeah. Unless it's the the block. style, which I I like. >> Yeah. Blockbuster. >> Yeah, >> I like those as well. Those are um it's. a different style. They're not throwups. It's a kind of a style that could be. used in throw-ups and they're a lot of. times used on um using rollers, but. they're really large letters. A lot of. times they're more straight than bubbly, which is the differentiation like you. were saying. I like blockbuster too,

Chuck. >> Yeah, me too. Uh, and then you got the. the best kind when you might get a whole. subway car and many hours to decorate. the thing or a whole wall. And those are. called uh pieces just like you would. call an art piece a piece cuz it is an. art piece for sure. Um, they're way more. detailed, way more colors. They have all. sorts of crazy cool effects like fades. from one color or another. They might. have sparkles on them. They might. somehow have like a chrome effect. Um, there's a lot more decoration to them.

They're just amazing. That's probably. what most people think of when they. think of graffiti or pieces. >> Yeah. >> Um and these all are they get they start. out easy like you just practice doing. tags then you move on to throwups and. then you move on to pieces eventually. And so they also take different amounts. of time like once you get good at. tagging you can do this in like less. than a minute maybe five if you're just. starting out. It can take a a minute if. you're really really good and have been. doing it a long time to put a throw up.

up. Can take 15 minutes if you're still. figuring out your way. Those pieces, this surprised me. They can take days to. do with multiple crews working on the. same thing. It can still take days. And. if you're just one dude making a piece, a masterpiece, it can take months, weeks, and months to to get it done. which I mean if you're doing this. illicitly like on a wall somewhere. having to go back like night after night. to to do this and not get caught that's. it's rather thrilling if you ask me.

>> Well and the uh just the the time. investment for something that a third of. the way through or halfway through or. toward the end could get could go away. >> I thought about that too, man. That's. got to hurt. >> That would really suck. >> What about Wild Style? I referred to it. early on. Uh, wild style is obviously super. stylized. It's where you get sort of the. overlapping uh letter patterns. Um, it's. usually fairly bright and like you. mentioned like a lot of shading. Uh, maybe a 3D effect. Uh, a lot of times.

these pieces have wild style involved, >> right? Yeah. It's kind of like the the. most advanced form, I guess, just. because it's so it's just it's really. hard to do and it's the most intricate. usually, but it's also kind of like gone. beyond what most people appreciate as. graffiti. Um where they have no idea. what this thing says. Like other. graffiti artists can read it, but the. average person is just like, "Oh, look. at that mish mash of colors." It's kind.

of like um how uh metal bands u logos. have kind of evolved too where you're. like I I have no idea whose album this. is. It's very much similar that Wild. Style is. >> but one thing that stuck out to me Chuck. Wild Style I'm like I I that probably. came around in maybe the 90s at the. earliest. It's from the 70s too. Like. all of this stuff Yeah. is from the 70s. So in the '7s in New York City, the. general guidelines for what constitutes.

graffiti still today were laid out and. established by those people. Like it's. still followed today. Um I think that's. amazing. >> You know, I thought it'd be added piece. by piece over the decades, but no, they. figured it out pretty much right out of. the gate. >> Yeah, that's cool. I love it. Mhm. >> Uh and then if you've ever seen like uh. and this is a little more west coast. like the old English style or like the. the western saloon lettering uh that's. known as cholo style uh a word that you. know is sort of associated with um like. gang culture like Mexican gang culture.

but that developed from that cho riding. culture on the west coast and then. spread around like you you can see that. on the east coast but it it's definitely. I feel like more west coast thing and. that looks super cool too. >> No, it definitely does. Um there's also. they use a lot of characters, cartoonish. characters of like gangbangers with. bandanas like almost over their eyes, that kind of dude. >> Yeah. >> Um they show up a lot. It just seems. like there's a lot more cartoon figures. in Cholo style than say like New York. graffiti. >> There was one more style that I ran.

across called anti-style or ignorant. style. And essentially it's like what. most people would call toy. It's just. primitive. It's amateur-ish, but it's. done on purpose because it's done by. graffiti artists. a lot of whom are. actually really good um who are like. this has gotten totally out of control. Have you seen this wild style stuff? We. need to like get back to basics and just. have fun with this again. And so they're. kind of trying to recapture what the. earliest um graffiti artists from like. the 70s were doing as they when they.

figured it out as they went along. A lot. of people hate it, can't stand it. They. think it's just d a dumb idea. But from. what I can tell, if you're a good artist. doing purposefully primitive work, it's. actually pretty cool looking. >> All right. Should we take that break? >> I do want to take that break, Chuck. >> All right, let's go get our spray cans, shake them up, and we'll be right back. This is [music].

the day. [music]. of. >> want to learn about a teract how to take. a perfect all about fractals [music]. until the hunt the Lizzy board murders. and cannab. [music]. >> word up Jerry. >> All right. Right. So, we mentioned AR uh. markers early on. Um and obviously, like. I said, inside like on the wall of a. subway car, uh a lot of times, maybe not.

even inside, but um if you just want to. provide detail for a larger piece on. like the exterior of a subway car or. wall or something, >> yeah, >> uh you could use a marker. And in the. early days, uh Pilot uh marks a lot and. dry DRRi and Sanford Kingsize were um. they were very broad tip markers. So. those were uh some some of the early. markers that were the most popular. >> Mhm. >> And you could also refill a lot of those. uh with different kinds of ink. So the. you know the felt was just sort of the. the instrument and you could put. whatever color or mix colors if you.

wanted to. >> For sure. >> Uh and they would also like make their. own stuff. It's a very sort of DIY style. of art where they were making their own. tools and components maybe like shoe. polish bottles and stuff like that. >> Yeah. Uh you also mentioned that it's. one of the four pillars of hip-hop. There's technically five as far as. Africa bombat is concerned. Um and that. would be knowledge is the fifth pillar. like knowledge of self, knowledge of. where you come from, your history. Um. real KRS1 stuff, you know.

>> Yeah. >> And so as being a part of hip-hop. culture, I don't know if we said the. other ones, MCing and DJing and. breaking. >> Yeah. >> And graffiti and knowledge. Those are. the five pillars of hip-hop. Um, and. like the other stuff like MCing and. DJing and all that and breaking in. particular, there's a real competitive. element to uh, graffiti like um, where. you can go so far as you end up in a war. with other artists where you're spraying. over their stuff and spraying over your. stuff. And that is not you're not.

supposed to do that. Like if you spray. over somebody's stuff, it better be. terrible work and you better be really. good at it. Um because that's a huge. flex I guess you would say if it was. 2024. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh it has also. intersected with other art forms over. the years. Um in the 1980s there was a. comic artist named Von Bode who uh was. very influential to this culture. Uh he. had a couple of characters Puck and. Cheich Wizard. Uh he came up with um I.

think he came up with these characters. like in the 1950s. >> Wow. But then in the 60s they were in. like self-published comics and then went. a little more I want to say mainstream. obviously not mainstream mainstream but. like 72 to 75 they were in the national. lampoon so a little more mainstream. >> right. >> uh and if you think you've heard that. name before that sounds familiar uh you. might have heard the song shot by the. beasty boys uh I'm like von Bode I'm a. cheat wizard never quitting so you won't.

listen. >> very nice well said. >> yeah I I knew I had heard that before. I. was like, that's been in a song. I know. it. >> Yeah. And um Cheich Wizard is. essentially like a giant wizard hat with. some legs coming out of it. That's. Cheich Wizard and he's like a wise. smartass kind of well wizard hat. Um and. I don't I I didn't see why, but for some. reason graffiti culture just loved that. stuff. So Cheich Wizard shows up and. Puck the Lizard show up in a lot of. graffiti from the 70s and 80s. And then. one of the other influences I saw that.

um that Chew Wizard or Von Boat had uh. his lettering for his comics, he like. from what I can tell he came up with. bubble letters and that that made its. way into graffiti directly from von. Bod's comics. >> Well, graffiti and the book covers of uh. of math books of Gen X Kids. >> Yep. >> I was big into the bubble lettering. >> Yeah. using those um those pens with. like the five different colors that you. can click down.

>> Yeah, I was okay at it. Uh I definitely. use those pens. I remember G's giving me. a lot of trouble and S's giving me a lot. of trouble. >> Those are hard, >> but I I tried. >> How was your um bubble Q? >> Oh god, is that a thing? >> It is sound possible. >> I think I just laid down the gauntlet. for somebody to come up with that. >> Oh wow. Uh so graffiti starts to spread. around the world. Um Britain in the late. 70s. Um Amster Amsterdam in particular.

in the Netherlands and their punk scenes. in the late '7s. They started doing some. of this stuff. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then it also helped spread. because of um of media a little bit. I. mean most of it was fairly underground. media at the time unless it was some. like news report that had a scathing. report. Um but there was a photographer. named Henry Chfont. >> Yeah. who did a few projects, one of. which I highly recommend watching on. YouTube, a documentary from 1983 called. Style Wars, which is a really good. watch. >> It's one of those ones where you're.

like, I feel cooler just watching this. thing. >> Yeah. >> He just turned the he turned the camera. He and the director Tony Silver, who. worked together, they turned the camera. on these graffiti artists and just had. them talk and and show what they were. doing and explain why they were doing. this. And then interspersed is like um. like break dancing of from the rock. steady crew when they were just starting. out. Like it's just super cool like this. captured time capsule like moment in. time where this is all starting. Uh they.

they to like Henry Chowont like got it. He was like we need to document this is. because this is going to be important. >> Yeah. It's amazing. I mean, there's. there's other things like photographs. and this and that, but when you look at. the birth of a of a new art form and. sort of a burgeoning culture to have. this this sort of one document. >> so like perfectly capture this moment in. time like you were talking about. It's I. mean that that should be in like the. Library of Congress like that kind of. stuff. >> for sure.

>> or whatever. What's the uh film version. of that? I can't remember the name of. it. >> The Fiberry of Fombas. >> Yeah. Wow. Um, I know that deserved a. wow. [laughter] I'm really scraping the. bottom of the barrel here in year 17. >> Oh, so you said that it was a it was. like a document, right? Um, >> it actually is kind of referred to in in. graffiti culture still today. Like if. somebody's starting out and they're. like, "What should I go what what can I. learn from?" One of the things that. people will refer them to is style wars.

Because again, these these like. essential guidelines were laid down at. this time. Yeah. So, you can still learn. a ton from watching Star Wars or Henry. Chant got into a couple of other um. projects, too. One with a photographer. named Martha Cooper called Subway Art. I've also seen newbies referred to that. book, too. And then another one with. another photographer, James Prigo, called Spray Can Art. So, Henry Choffont. had a real impact on like documenting. this stuff um that still is important.

today. Yeah, he it was kind of like it. made me think of the guy I can't. remember his name, but the the famous. photographer who captured the um. Southern California skateboard culture. early on because they seem like kind of. the only people doing that in such a. sort of um artistic and profound way, you know? >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> Good stuff. >> Um two other things to call out. There. was a photographer named Gordon Mata. Clark who documented photo in. photographs just like tags all around. New York City. has a pretty cool I think.

they make showings of his photographs. sometimes. And then the movie Wildstyle. actually came out a year before Style. Wars, 1982. It's considered the first. hiphop um movie ever. I think it was a. Fab Five Freddy project, but it has um. the Rock Steady Crew. Uh one of the rare. early woman graffiti artists, Lady Pink, she's in it. And then King ad Rock is in. it before he was called King Rock before. the BC boys. >> Yeah. >> But there's a ton of like the whole. premise of this. It's a It's a um movie,

like a fictional movie, but the whole. premise is this guy's being hired to um. well, I guess put up some graffiti by. this uh I can't remember another dude or. a company or something like that. >> All right, I'll check that out. >> Thanks. >> So, you know, we mentioned graffiti as. art because graffiti is art. Uh but as. far as being accepted into like the. legitimate art community, that that sort. of happened in fits and starts over the. years. Mhm. >> Uh there was an I guess the first. academic article about graffiti was in.

1969 in the Urban Review by Herbert Cole. was called names graffiti and culture. >> Yeah. >> And then a few years later in 1972 a big. deal happened when uh or or big deal for. that culture at least. Um, Hugo Martinez. is a student activist at City College in. New York and he helped uh start a a. collective called United Graffiti Artist. with a bunch of uh Puerto Rican teen. graffiti artists. And that was sort of. the first collective where he was like, "Hey, do this stuff on canvas.

>> because this is art." And they had an. exhibition at City College and then the. very first graffiti art gallery show at. the Razer Gallery in Soho that same. year. >> Right. Yeah. they became really. influential. Um the next year in 1973. choreographer Twi Tharp, she um had the. United um graffiti artists do basically. the scene uh decorations for her. performance in Chicago. I can't remember. what it was called, but I weirdly the. the dance was choreographed to Beach.

Boys music with graffiti in the. background. It was a real mish mash. >> Did you say Beasty Boys music? No, I. said beach boys. And the whole time she. just kept going Twilight, Twilight, Twilight. while she danced. >> That's good. You're getting better. >> Yeah, it comes and goes. >> Uh we did mention, you know, obviously. um the other side of the coin is there. is and still are people that think this. is just vandalism. Uh they think it's um.

just like urban decay happening before. our very eyes. And in the early '7s, New. York got on board that line of thinking, at least the government did, when Mayor. John Lindseay declared a war on. graffiti. Uh that following year in '. 72, the city council said it's illegal. to even carry an aerosol can in a public. facility. >> Mhm. >> And then uh in 75, they created the. transit police graffiti squad. And you. know, they're cleaning up subway cars, but like I said earlier, all this all.

this was was like game on. Like there's. not a single graffiti artist that was. intimidated or scared out of doing what. they were going to do because of this. If anything, it heightened it. >> Yeah. Another um example of that is they. uh outlawed selling spray paint to. teenagers in New York City. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. >> And so graffiti artists were like, "Oh, okay. We'll just start stealing it. That's cheaper anyway." So stealing your. spray paint became like just a part of. of graffiti in New York in the in the. 70s and 80s.

>> Yeah. Not condoning that. Well, I said. they were juvenile delinquents, and I. wasn't kidding. >> Uh, Ed Cotch, famous New York mayor in. the latest 70s and 77, was very. anti-graffiti. >> and would razor wire the subway yards, had guard dogs. Uh, he had cops like. staking out houses and following kids. home from school. >> That's nuts, man. >> Yeah, that's just nuts. >> Um, so I think I don't know if Cotch. Yeah, I think Cotch was still um mayor. at the time. They came up with the Metro. Transit Authorities clean car program.

and this one actually had an impact. Um, this was beyond Razor Wire and German. Shepherds. Like this was if we find a. train car has been hit overnight with. graffiti, it's not going to go back out. there until that graffiti is cleaned. off. >> Yeah. >> So imagine like working all night or. whatever and getting your your piece up. and it gets cleaned off before it even. leaves the transit station. So um, that. actually worked. And by 1989, apparently like whole car um graffiti.

was just not around anymore in New York. Like you can still see it on on cars, but they used to use the entire car. There's a really famous one by Futura. 2000 and Dundee which is called Break, and it's considered one of the greatest. full subway car um masterpieces anyone's. ever done. It's beyond description. Just. go look up Break by Dundee in Futura. 2000. >> What did you think of it?

>> I thought it was amazing because it just. completely departed from any kind of I. know how just ridiculous I sound right. now. It departed from any kind of. convention. It used all sorts of new. elements and stuff that I hadn't seen. anywhere else. And um you really had to. kind of examine it in detail and then. also stepping back to kind of take the. whole thing in. >> I didn't love it. >> Yeah, I mean I could see that it's. Sorry. You know. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Or let's say this. I've seen a lot other. stuff that I thought was like maybe just.

appealed to me more. I was about to say. it was way better, but that's again it's. just in the eye of the beholder. >> Man, that was a really great way to put. it. >> Uh so, thank you. I appreciate that. >> Um again, I mentioned earlier that it. was a sort of a DIY community when how I. like figuring stuff out, sharing uh tips. and tricks with one another. And from. the beginning they would use various. nozzles from other types of cans or you. know caps they would call them uh from. different products to provide different. ways of painting. Uh I know that you. know when you spray that I don't use. this stuff but that easy off oven.

cleaner. >> you know sprays that big wide area. So. they started using that to achieve the. same effect with paint. Um, and they. they uh I mean they were a real um I. guess when they were buying the paint um. made a difference in the the profits of. Rustoleum and Kryon over the 70s for. sure. >> Yeah. But Rustoleum and Kryon were um. Kryon were specifically avoiding. marketing or making their products. attractive to graffiti artists. >> They couldn't do that. No, this was this.

was um No, you did not want your your. brand being accused of of catering to. graffiti artists at the time. Um but it. was still pretty good. It was useful. And one of the reasons why is because. they were both chalk full of lead up. until um the late 70s. And lead does all. sorts of great stuff for spray paint. It. makes it dry faster. Uh it makes colors. brighter. It's more dur durable. It's. moisture resistant. So when the leg got. taken out, that was a real bummer for. graffiti artists.

>> Um Yeah. I mean, I could see that having. a huge impact. >> Yeah. Uh you know, in Europe, they did. market, there were a couple in the '9s, uh the Montana and Moloto brands of. spray paint actually target um street. art markets and have all kinds of like, you know, weather resistant paints and. crazy colors and different effects with. their caps. So they they embraced it and. basically said, "Hey, come buy our. stuff.". Uh yes, but if you're a purist in. America, you probably are still using.

Rustoleum or Kryolon. >> Yeah. >> One of the other things that really kind. of evolved um that helped things along. was um not having to take the spray. nozzle off of Easy Off anymore and. having nozzles that were designed and. sold for graffiti art. Like all sorts of. different kinds of nozzles that do all. sorts of different kinds of things. >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, you know, fat lines. and skinny lines, different caps that. achieve those effects. Uh, they had, uh,

calligraphy caps. Um, if you ever been. in a paint store and looked at, you. know, sometimes you can even spray a. little piece of cardboard they have. there on the wall. >> Lucky. >> But, uh, you know, sometimes it's a. little round pinhole, but sometimes it's. a it's a slot. Uh, and those are. calligraphy caps, like a horizontal. line. I never knew that. >> I think those are big in cholo um. graffiti, too. >> Yeah. Uh, needle caps, they make. splatter. So, if you want like. controlled drips, you don't want. uncontrolled drips or unintentional. drips, but you might want your piece to.

have some drip look to it. So, you would. use needle caps. They also add texture. to the lines because they there's like a. a like a splattery haze that when you. step back just kind of softens the lines. a little bit from the needle caps. It's. pretty cool. >> Should we take our second break? >> I think we should. >> All right. We'll come back uh right. after this. [music]. [music].

Want to learn about a terodactyl? How to. take a perfect all about fractals until. the Lizzy board of murders and a runain. explo. [music]. >> Word up Jerry. >> So um if you wanted to get into this. kind of thing, there's a place to start. and it's called developing your hand. style. And that is your own personal way. of.

writing your your tag essentially. And. graffiti artists will come up with like. their own entire alphabets that they. just designed themselves. And there's a. a really great website that's super. useful if you do want to get into. graffiti um called bombingscience.com. They have a post of 61 different. graffiti artists and their um alphabets. essentially that they've created for. their tags. And it's really cool. Some. of them you're like, I have no idea what. letter that is. But even still, they're.

just super neat that people have put. this much thought into it and come up. with a a font essentially, their own. personal font that they use for. graffiti. And the way that you do that. is by practicing to develop your own. handstyle. And that is essentially step. one. And you do that not on a wall or. any public place or even with paint. You. start out with pens and markers figuring. it out. >> That's right. Uh, and now we're gonna. give you some tips. [laughter]. >> Oh, okay. There we go.

>> You're gonna want to shake that can up, guys. Gotta shake it really, really good. >> Mhm. >> Uh, all kidding aside, you do want to. shake that can up. Uh, because that's. what makes the the the paint flow really. well. Um, don't short change that shake. I feel like I'm I'm speaking for a lot. of listeners and saying that I'm I can't. help but feel a little forloren that. you're not doing this whole list in that. voice. >> All right, I'll keep going. >> Okay, >> step two, guys. Can control.

So, this is how you're going to avoid. those unwanted drips. Get a feel for. that pressure. It's going to determine. how quickly you're going to move that. hand to achieve that the end result that. you're after. >> Very nice. Can control it's called. And. then finally, guys, you're you're really going to want to. adjust that distance from the wall. If. you're if you're closer, it's going to. be thinner. It's going to be more. saturated. It's going to be great for. outlines. You step a little further. away, it's going to diffuse out. It's. going to cover a wider area. It's just. science, guys.

>> Very nice, man. >> All right. And seen. So yes, the upshot. of all this is the figuring out the. nozzle pressure and the distance from. the wall are basically the two most. basic things that you can understand and. learn about graffiti, but it's also the. things that come up the most. >> That's right. And some of the rules, uh, which I kind of like to see, uh, you. don't tag churches, you don't graffiti. churches, you don't graffiti schools. You're not supposed to, at least.

>> uh, hospitals. You're not supposed to do. this to someone's house or their car or. certainly a headstone at a cemetery or. nature like trees and rocks. >> You don't those big rocks in Central. Park. Uh you don't you don't tag those. Uh that's not what you're supposed to. do. And of course you don't snitch. because you know what they get. >> Uh they get a stitch or two from what I. understand. >> That's right. >> Yeah. There's a story of a a artist. named Cope 2 who was still considered. legendary, but he was accused of.

snitching and just like overnight his. reputation just went into the gutter. >> Oh wow. Yeah, I imagine. >> Yeah, they don't they they don't take. snitching lightly for sure. Um and then. there's other things too like we. basically been focusing on spray paint. for good reason. I mean it's the the. first medium or the the most used medium. and then there's markers and all that. but there's other stuff you can do. that's considered graffiti too. You can. get yourself um some sort of poster, get. some wheat paste and stick it up like a. old timey hand bill that you might see.

>> Yeah, >> you can make stickers. A lot of people. make stickers. You can come up with. stencils like a real Banky. >> And um all of these things have like the. advantage of most of the work being done. at home in a studio out of sight, not in. public, and then you can throw them up. pretty quickly and and move on and not. get caught. Um, I think that makes it a. different form of graffiti in that. sense, but yeah, it's still I mean it's. still street art at the very least. >> Yeah, I think so. Uh, and then Livia dug.

up this thing called reverse graffiti, which I had never heard of. >> Yeah. >> And uh she used a very good example like. when you um use your finger to write. wash me on a dusty car, uh you're you're. using an uh you know an inverse of. something to create an image. So, um, a. lot of times it's like, um, it's like a. a political statement maybe or maybe to. call attention to like pollution or the. environment or something like that. >> Yeah. >> And and it's also one where they're. saying like, "Hey, I'm I'm cleaning a.

surface technically, not defacing. anything, so come at me.". >> Yeah. And they'll still just come along. and be like, "Oh, no. We're going to now. we're going to clean this wall now that. you've done this. [laughter]. >> Now you put something beautiful up.". >> Right. >> Yeah. So over the years um some people. have really kind of made the jump into. like mega mondo fame like art world fame. who started out as graffiti artists. Uh. one of them was Jeia Michelle Bosat. A. lot of people point to him as a wildly.

successful artist who started out in. graffiti. Um so was his tag. Uh he. started out in the late 70s with a. friend named Al Diaz. By the 80s, his. paintings were some of the most. expensive in the art world, and he was. friends with Andy Warhol. And by 1982, he had a solo exhibition. This is like a. a an art, like a graffiti artist. This. is a huge leap for somebody to make. And. I think he might have been the first. I. think he came before Keith Herring. >> Yeah, Bosot had a a pretty good indie.

movie made about him. Uh I think it was. Jeffrey Wright that played him uh back. in the maybe 90s. It was really good. Uh. but yeah, you mentioned Keith Herring. too. They were they were friends. Uh we. were just in New York for fall break and. the family went to MoMA and the Whitney. and we saw Bas Bosats and obviously. Warhols and some Keith Herring stuff in. person which is always a thrill. >> Yeah. And Keith Herring, I know we've. talked about before, but he started uh. drawing uh in chalk on the like when. they would take a advertisement down on.

the uh subway walls, there would be this. like backboard there and he would put. his art up there. >> and was very famous initially at least. for the Radiant Baby was kind of his. tag. >> Yeah. >> Uh and if you don't know the Radiant. Baby, like if you looked it up, you'd. probably seen it somewhere before. It's. very famous. >> Yes. >> Yeah. It's like a crawling silhouette. with like um light lines coming off of. it. >> Yeah. And very sadly, uh Jean Michelle. Basot would pass from a heroin overdose.

in the late 80s and Keith Herring um. died uh from complications from AIDS and. HIV. I believe in 1990. >> I read an interview with Bosot. It must. have been in like 1988 because the. interviewer it was like he got up no. less than two or three times to go shoot. heroin in this rather short interview. Like he could not not do it. He would. have gotten sick like that quickly. >> Jeez. >> There's also uh Shepherd Ferry is very. famous um for his Andre the Giant has a.

posi stickers that he made and then also. for his hope poster of Barack Obama. during the 2008 election. Yeah. Shepherd. Ferryy, good work. >> Yep. What? And we've mentioned Banksy, right? >> Uh, yeah. I mean, do we have to talk. about Bangsy? >> No, there's a couple other ones that I. want to call out that are still working. today. Um, >> yeah, let's do that. >> So, Dundie White, he's an overlooked. one. He was the one who who uh with. Futura 2000 did that full car called. Break, but he hung out with Keith.

Herring and Bosat and Kenny Sharf in. Futura 2000. like he was a he never. really made the leap to the major art. world. He was like a old school. underground um artist. >> Yeah. And did you mention No, you didn't. mention Lady K. Who'd you mention. earlier? >> Lady Pink. >> Oh, Lady K. That Lady K is different. Lady K is uh French, I believe, right? In Paris. >> I believe that's where she was born and. she might be working there still. Either. Paris or New York.

>> Yeah. Very cool stuff there, too. >> Yeah. And then also, so check out her. stuff and then check out Ren's rens. who's working in Copenhagen. It is mindn. numbing how amazing this work is. Like I. just can't even imagine conceiving a lot. of a lot of it, let alone being good at. it. >> Yeah, it's beautiful. Beautiful stuff. It's really like I'm looking at some of. them now, man. It's that's amazing. And. then um there's one called Kid who is a.

vandal actually like purposefully. vandalizes luxury brand stores who have. collaborated with graffiti artists for. their brands. They don't like that. So. they will like it's not really like. pieces that they're putting up. It's. more like huge huge vandalizations of of. these stores. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. Oh, that's is that the one that's. like uh like stores that are kind of. co-opting and graffiti is like the cool. thing. He'll go hit them. Okay. >> Kid.

>> Yeah, but they're probably like great. >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Oh, wait. You mean. the stores? >> Yeah. >> I don't know. I've heard that they don't. like kid very much. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> And then lastly, the um I want to call. out Apothecary, who never really got off the ground. Um. that's Yumi's tag from when she got into. this. She's always been interested in B. boy culture. So, of course, she came up. with graffiti a graffiti tag. And I. think she realized like fairly early on, this is way too long apothecary to um to.

use as a tag. So, I don't think I think. it kind of petered out fairly early on. >> I'm going to have to tell Emily that. because uh I mean obviously apothecary. is right up her alley. So, >> yeah, for sure. >> That's funny. >> Uh you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. I'm going to work on. my my tag. I'm going to come up with a a. tag and a font. >> Nice. Yeah, get busy on your hand style, yo. >> Yeah. >> Uh, since uh we were just talking about. handstyle again, I think that means it's. time for listener mail.

>> Uh, yeah. This is from Ben in. Connecticut, uh, who's been listening. for quite a while and recently heard our. selects episode, The Great Finger in the. Wendy's Chili Caper. >> I remember that one. It was incredible. And we were commenting about um the way. Letterman and Leno covered that and that. Letterman was was funnier. Uh you know, no surprise there for me at least. I. assume you as well. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then Josh mentioned Leno's. well-known love of cars.

uh to differentiate the late night host. [music] However, guys, David Letterman. is well known within the indie car. racing world as one of the owners of. Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing. Uh the. team won the cart indie championship in. 1992, the year the team was founded, and. has won the Indy500 twice with drivers. Buddy Rice in 2004 and uh Takuma Sato in. 2020. So while Leno may be more well. known for his love of automotive history. [music] and tinkering with race cars, David Letterman is also well known.

within the automotive world. Uh and that. is from Ben, Connecticut. So I think the. takeaway there is Letterman owns Leno. once again. >> Yeah. And what was who was that? Ben. >> Yeah. And it's it's so low hanging fruit. to to bagg. So don't I don't think I'm. original or cool for doing so. >> I don't know. But it's I mean you still. mean it. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. Thanks a lot, Ben. That was a. very arcane fact that I definitely. hadn't heard. And [music] um I also just.

realized that arcane would be a great. tag, too. Arcane. Well, you and uh if you and Yumi went. out together and did this like arcane. and apothecary together, they'd be like, "Who is this new power couple in. graffiti?". >> This crew is amazing. >> Wow. >> What hand style? >> I know. And I'd say, "Guys, you got it. just right." [laughter]. >> Uh yeah, thank you for doing that voice. You really. >> I think you saved the episode. >> I kind of stole that from uh Eddie. Murphy uh when he used to do the white.

voice. >> Oh, is that who that was? >> Yeah, just a little bit. I was gonna. guess Johnny Carson on Helium doing. George W. Bush. >> Yeah, go back and listen. You'll be. like, "Oh my god.". >> Uh, well, I think that's it. Yes, Ben, thank you very much for that email, Ben. And if you want to be like Ben and get. in touch with us, um, we [music] love. that kind of thing. You can send it off. to Stuff Podcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of.

iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever [music]. you listen to your favorite shows.