GONG: The Chuck Barris Story | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is stuff you should know. and if this were the gong show we would. have been gong a very long time ago I. believe I think you mean Chucky. baby yeah that's right nice catch cuz. we're talking about Chucky Baby the.

original one not you the Chucky baby I. got called that though back then because. of this oh really oh yeah boy you've. been alive for a. long I get I was about to say man this. was right in my C cultural wheelhouse. from like 7 to 10 but you this that. makes it a little young for you or a. little old for you I guess uh yeah I was. a I was a baby when it started I think I. might have not been born quite yet when. it started but yeah it was not something. I watched as a toddler did you did you.

watch any Gong Show ever like was it re. reruns or something yeah I saw some. reruns I was never I mean I can. understand the gong show is a cult. classic yeah and I totally get why it. just never got me in that way you know. what I mean hey when you're seven it's. pretty great how bad you're like come on. boobs yeah so um we're not talking. specifically just about the gong show. we're talking about the guy who is. routinely wrongly attributed for. creating the Gong Show um and the reason.

why is because he was a Legendary game. show producer and he hosted The Gong. Show and his name was Chuck Baris but. just to kind of clear the air right out. of the gate the gong show was actually. created by Chris beard who would go on. to become a legendary creator of a. another cult classic called Sherman Oaks. in the 90s I never watched that hm I've. never heard of that I feel like I had. heard of it but I I I don't I really. don't think I ever saw it there's a lot. of the '90s I probably don't remember. but you know.

I don't think I watched Sherman o yeah. the '90s were our. 70s yeah yeah kind of like our 70s and. our 60s combined yeah uh and the reason. we're talking about Chuck Baris is not. just the fact that he was uh way ahead. of his time in a lot of ways as far as. um what kind of content he was putting. on television like a real Visionary if. you look back at what we're seeing today. you know and what he was doing at the. time uh but the reason we're talking. about Chuck Baris is because he did that. and also as we will learn in act three.

well we'll learn it now but we'll get. into it in act three uh Chuck Baris um. also wrote a book in 1984 after his TV. career was pretty much over right. wherein he. um said basically that while this was. going on he was a secret assassin for. the. CIA and carried out uh at least 33. murders on behalf of the American. government and that was a book called. Confessions of a dangerous mind also. made into a film of that same name which. which makes this sort of an obvious pick.

for something for us to go over I. thought you're going to say like. something new came up about him or. something like that recently so how did. you think of Chuck Baris like are you. always just walking around with Chuck. bars in the back of your mind I don't it. popped up somehow and I was like because. I saw that movie and I was like oh yeah. that's so weird that Chuck Baris wrote A. Memoir in which he said that he was CIA. assassin yeah like what was up like cuz. I never even like did any research to. see how untrue that may or may not have.

been so that was really kind of it yeah. in the movie I think that was George. Clooney's directorial debut they treat. it like yeah it's it's part of his life. narrative which was an interesting. choice but also it kind of gets you out. of like really getting caught in the. weeds of trying to explore if it was. true and if it's not why he did that. yeah I think it was a good move actually. yeah uh so here we go on the baron of. bad taste the king of dynamite. television I've got one the king of. schlock and drum roll the ayatolla of.

trash. Ola isn't that great and very of the. time that that fits yeah the ayatolla. was on people's minds in the mid to late. 70s yeah yeah um so yeah this guy was. born in 1929 um apparently when you read. about interviews that he's he's given. like he was born in 29 30 31 32 like he. is not huge on keeping up with consist.

details and I still don't know whether. that was intentional like was he toying. with people all this time or did he just. not pay attention to that kind of thing. because he had bigger stuff going on. yeah like killing people uh who knows. but he is a guy from Philly uh went to. at the time Drexel Institute of. Technology now Drexel University in the. 50s uh wanted to be a songwriter for Tin. Pan Alley for a little while ultimately. would write a song which we'll get to um. and then decided he wanted to get into. television and became a page at NBC in.

1955 uh which went nowhere because the. daytime sales department he was a a page. for at the time uh was eliminated MH but. that gave him the TB. bug yeah he that was what he wanted to. do was crack into TV he even went so far. as to marry the niece of the founder of. CBS a woman named ly Levy no um but yeah. in the context of his Ambitions you're. like did like what's that like.

you know deliberate kind of thing who. knows I guess it doesn't really matter. although he was married to her for 19. years I will point that out uh you know. so it seems like a a real marriage you. talk about keeping up appearances. yeah so yeah he started out like Kenneth. from 30 Rock didn't last um and then I. don't know how it happened but he ended. up getting an assignment from ABC so he. started at NBC moved to ABC and his sole. job was to go babysit Dick Clark to to. make sure that he wasn't accepting.

bribes or being a corrupt host of. American band stand that was his job in. his 20s yeah and it was supposed to last. just a couple of weeks it ended up. lasting a year and then very um. interestingly he kept copious notes. every day he would write up like a. minute detailed account of everything. that happened on set that day and he. would also include jokes and like parts. of his philosophy and stuff like that. and it turned into like a 00 page.

document that ended up bailing Dick. Clark out yeah in the end uh when Dick. Clark testified in front of the US House. subcommittee uh it was about you know. poola scandals of you know pay for play. basically for music right uh which was. illegal um it actually got him out like. you said and Dick Clark was like hey. buddy uh I wonder what you were. scribbling on all those that whole year. but uh you helped me out inadvertently. and now you got a full-time job in our. daytime TV Department here at BC yeah uh.

he also said hey by the way have you. ever thought about getting into songw. writing and in fact Dick Clark set him. up with Freddy Boom Boom Cannon a uh a. top recording artist at the time and a. friend of Dick Clark's and he recorded a. song Palisades Park that Chuck Baris. wrote and it made it to like number. three on the Billboard charts oh yeah I. know that and I think in 1962 I think it. was yeah and uh The Beach Boys ended up. covering it so that alone probably made. him quite a quite successful right out.

right off the bat yeah for sure uh even. though his songwriting career I mean. that was kind of it for for songwriting. because his TV career was taking off he. uh by all appearances was a very uh hard. worker and um you know I don't wanted to. come across as we're just you know. singing Chuck baris's Praises constantly. here he he changed the game in a lot of. ways in TV but as we'll see uh because. it was the 70s that was a lot of. misogyny tied into stuff he was doing on. t which we'll get to um just wanted to.

sort of level set on that yeah I think. that was good uh but um when he was. working for ABC he became uh worked his. way up to director of daytime programs. and um initially got on the map with. them by making a. pilot uh about it was called people. poker and it was it was sort of the the. first sign that he wanted to do a. different kind of game show um like sort. of a what would become like a Jerry. Springer type thing with a game show. component with as far as people poker.

goes was people were on the show to. guess the professions of different other. people uh in this pilot which is I. believe as far as it went um he had all. women on the show he had U brain. surgeons um police officers and sex. workers and it ended up that the cops. and the sex workers got into a literal. fight and the show obviously didn't go. anywhere and he left ABC not too long. after yeah so that was huge that he. struck out on his own and in fact um.

shortly after that he founded Chuck bars. Productions that was 1965 so probably as. the door was still swinging behind him. at ABC yeah which by the way you said he. was the director of daytime programs. apparently he didn't like that title so. he changed his official title to Duke of. daytime that's the kind of guy he was. this guy's working his way up and that's. one of the things he does right so it. does make sense that he goes off and. founds his own production company with a. $20,000 loan from his stepdad and that.

ended up paying off because in 1965 he. developed the dating game turned around. and sold it to his former employer ABC. and it was basically off the bat a Smash. Hit in that it was Innovative it was a. pioneering game show up to this point. like you said this was all new people. answered questions on quiz shows or. there were puzzles or something like. that no one was doing this kind of thing. and Chuck bars literally came up with it. no sorry he genuinely sincerely came up.

with it and uh it it it was it just it. put him on the map and just kind of. showed everybody what he could do for. better or worse like you were saying. yeah and the dating game was huge I mean. I watched a lot of Dating Game as a kid. um Jim Lang was the original host back. then eventually uh Chuck Woolery would. take over he'll be back in two and two. as we all know yeah and if you've never. seen the dating game uh the format was. there are three potential dates hidden.

on the other side of a screen uh and a. woman interviews these three men and. then supposedly goes on a date with one. of them uh but what it became known for. eventually was was people coming on. early in their career who were uh. underemployed or unemployed actors so. Sally Field Schwarzenegger uh Tom selich. John Ham uh Andy Kaufman as lka like. workshopping a character as you know as. a contestant on The Dating Game as a. Bachelor on The Dating Game oh uh it was.

a big deal it was a huge show and um I. want to quickly plug this new movie from. Anna Kendrick woman of the hour on. Netflix have you heard of it yeah I. haven't seen it yet though it's good man. Anna Kendrick's directorial debut she. knocked it out of the park I think it's. a really effective movie about uh the. true story of um a dating game uh. Bachelor uh Rodney alala who was a. serial killer and he was on the game. after he had been a Serial while he was.

a serial killer MH won the dating game. and the woman who was The Bachelorette. refused to go on the date with him. because he was such a creepy weirdo uh. but it's it's a really effective movie. like she. Nails the the threat that a woman feels. generally from men like more effectively. than maybe I've seen anyone ever do it. like crawling out of your skin wow just. by this guy like being in a parking lot. with her at night like that kind of. thing yeah and plus also at that that. time too that was fully socially.

supported like men could be total creeps. and put their hands on women and it was. pretty much like yeah that's just the. way things are at the time too yeah good. movie though so he followed up the. dating game with the newwood game huge. very similar except um well not that. similar I mean the format was different. enough that that it's not the exact same. game but he took um married couples. we've talked about this before I think. on our game Show's episode and he would. separate the husbands and keep the wives.

back and ask them questions about what. their husband would answer or say to. some question then he he'd bring the. husbands out and they'd go through and. see if their their answers matched and. then invariably like um they would get. it wrong and some wives would get mad if. they got it right some couples would. kiss it was like very cute they were. newlyweds right but the the content of. both the dating game and the neww game. were so runchy that in a lot of cases. there were segments of the dating game.

that Chuck be was like well can't use. that because the guy mentioned his um. his junk in like a really vulgar term. yeah um like like he was he yeah exactly. he said uh he said even he was surprised. at first that's not what he was going. for but when it it started to when he. could get enough of the innuendo and. everything out as produced shows that. were aired and the popularity that they. were met with he's like well I guess.

this is the direction I'm going yeah uh. and so for the first time on TV you had. people um airing parts of their personal. lives on television and you had people. that Chuck Baris even acknowledged like. the prize money wasn't good on these. shows like they were doing these shows. to be on TV yeah that was also partially. deliberate on his his um his part. because I I read an interview with him. and he said that um like a wife will.

Bonk her husband over the head with like. the the card that she has the answer. written on if he gets a question wrong. when there's a toaster at stake but if. you have like a yacht at stake that. completely changes the dynamic of a game. and takes away all of the fun yeah yeah. we could have w a yacht exactly but at. the same time uh he also said that like. the newwood game was also famous for. couples just going totally Gaga over. pretty mundane prizes yeah uh and the. other couples would be upset or they'd.

look kind of upset that they didn't win. and he said that he would do pre- inters. with people and ask what their dream. prize was and then he would put together. three couples that all had the same. dream prize so it would hurt that much. more when they didn't get it so I don't. know which one's true or maybe both are. true but that's another another example. of him speaking out of both sides of his. mouth which he did a lot yeah and the. data shows that 80% of newly wed couples. in the 70s their dream prize was an all. expense paid trip to.

aapco yeah well that's what they got. whether they liked it or not the most. exotic place in the world at the time oh. man aapco was so big back then I didn't. even know anything about aapco is it. still around uh I believe it's still I. don't think it's fallen into the ocean. yet all right so bars is killing it uh. with Dating Game and Newlywed Game uh he. started just producing show after show. after show uh the only one I will. mention is the only one from this list. that I really watched which was the1 98.

Beauty show hosted by the late great Rip. Taylor yeah I'm glad that was the one. you chose that was the I was like what. is that and I researched it and I was. like you have to be kidding me it was so. good the prize was. $1.98 and uh Rip Taylor is just a a. legend and uh you know sort of an. American uh gay icon in the 70s yeah the. guy who wore a really bad toou pay and. would throw confetti all the time he's. great yeah he was great um so yeah that.

show was one of the ones that Chuck. Baris really took a lot of heat for it. was um described by him as a spoof of. pageants right so they were making fun. of actual pageants but the way that they. made fun of it was to humiliate and. embarrass women who normally wouldn't. have participated in a traditional. beauty contest that's right rather than. celebrating them they pointed out all. the reasons why they couldn't have made. it on a real beauty contest it was just. some of the quotes I read were really.

really mean uh and yeah it was a hit. show at the time I think it was just on. for a couple of years but that was seems. to be about how long his his shows. lasted but they were like huge flashes. in the pan sometimes not all the time he. had some flops but he would you know a. show like that would be on for a few. years and then it just be gone yeah and. just to stick up for myself a little bit. eight-year-old Chuck didn't realize he. was being fed know blatant misogyny at. the time yeah again I mean that's how. things were it's it's really like.

changed for the better in so many ways. cuz yeah like I'm like I'm sure grown. men were just laughing so hard at those. insults it's just crazy yeah I was. probably like my dad's laughing so let. me bond with him exactly or try to at. least uh so oh no no no do your laugh. from the uh that's not quite a laugh. from the Halloween episode I can't redo. it it'll just be a disappointment oh man. uh all right before we break we should. mention that uh got into bookwriting in.

1974 um he would like he said go on to. write U many books and I believe at the. end of his life even kind of hoped he. would be remembered for as an author. rather than the king of schlock uh but. in 74 he published you and me babe you. and me babe a fictionalized account of. his. marriage uh which uh ended a couple of. years after the book came out but um he. gamed the system like we talked about. gaming the system for the New York Times. bestseller list in that shorty episode. mhm landed on that New York Times.

bestseller list uh but you know that's. that's how he started his book writing. career yeah and at the time this is 1974. this is like you pretty much were in the. TV industry to know to have heard really. of Chuck Baris or know what he was doing. he was not a cultural icon yet so that. was there was a chance at the time that. he could have been remembered for an. author but he made a huge fateful. decision in 1976 and we'll talk about. that fateful decision right after this. it's.

[Music]. [Music]. like. [Music]. seriously all right we're back uh Josh. left a quite a cliffhanger with the the. word that Chuck bars made a very.

faithful decision and that faithful. decision was uh to to be the actual host. of what would be the thing he was most. known known for the gong show uh which. ran for um but two years in daytime then. a couple of more years in syndication. until 1980 MH and uh you know bars said. initially like I thought this would be. basically what we see now with like. America's Got Talent like a real talent. show with real amate M talent but he got.

a lot of bad people in there and decided. to uh Go a different route and the show. ended up. being very bad Talent um that was uh I. mean the premise of the show was they. performed in front of celebrity a. celebrity panel and if it was so bad. that the celebrity panel uh one of them. could or all of them sometimes could get. up and hit the gong which would in their. performance if they managed to make it. through without the gong uh they would. rate them on a scale of 0 to 10 yeah but.

the the celebrity pan and we're talking. like celebrities of 20 years before. panel right um or if they were active. celebrities like say Jamie far they were. like beist maybe yeah they game show. celebrities kind like Match Match Game. level stuff you're right yeah right but. the the celebrity judges on the panel. had to wait 45 seconds right he couldn't. bang the gong 45 seconds so you'll see. some gong shows where Jamie far was just. standing there at the gong waiting for.

that 40 46th second so he can hit it and. then if they made it 90 seconds that's. when they would judge and potentially. win yeah and it was. just so I found a description of it this. is in cyclopedia. Britannica it was quote part talent show. parenthesis most contestants. conspicuously lacked Talent yeah part. demented variety show that's that's. encyclopedia panica describing this yeah.

I mean it was it was really really funny. because the talent was bad and you could. laugh at that the panelists really yuck. it up and sometimes one would have the. gong hammer or whatever you call the. thing you hit the gong with is the. Mallet I guess and other celebrity the. panelists would be trying to rip it out. of their hands and like no no no Let It. Go they're all haming it up and Chuck. Baris as host was he was he's probably. the weirdest TV show host in TV show. history and and just how he hosted a.

show and how he behaved the the weird. things he did it was just very awkward. and strange yeah like he would hide his. face by pulling hats like big old hats. that he would wear down over his eyes. and he'd be talking to the audience like. like continuing on the show but he. clearly wanted to crawl into that hat. and hide he was beyond awkward so when. you put all this stuff together like bad. Talent Acts that aren't trying to be bad.

in some cases um a really weird awkward. host that's clearly uncomfortable. hosting a game show and then you know. these these like you said celebrity. judges on the panel Hamming it up like. you have a cult classic today but at the. time there was nothing even remotely. like this that anyone had ever done ever. it was totally groundbreaking I was two. but even I knew that at the time that. that was a groundbreaking show you said. Mama ground baking that's right yes dear.

yeah that's exactly what she said too uh. so uh I don't think we said that if you. won you get a little gong Trophy and you. get a check for $516 32 which was the uh. sag minimum daily rate at that time and. what the gong show again in retrosp uh. retrospect became known for in some ways. was the fact that some real you know. talented people um sometimes got their. break there sometimes didn't necessarily. get their break but they were it was the.

first time they'd ever done anything you. know on television before uh sing. country singer songwriter bux car willly. was on uh the band oo Boingo when they. were the Mystic Knights of the oo Boingo. yeah they would go on to their biggest. hit was Weird Science oh much other I. mean or go boingo's great yeah but I. mean their big hit was that and then the. other one was dead man's party which I. think they played at a party and back to. school probably and and they're probably. best known now for the fact that their.

lead singer and songwriter was Danny. Elfman yeah so Danny Elfman um he was a. huge composer especially in the late 80s. early 90s I mean he did some really. high-profile stuff one of which was The. Simpsons theme oh yeah Batman yeah um he. also a lot of Tim Burton stuff too he. also did the theme he composed the theme. to PeeWee Herman uh Peewee Herman's I. don't know if it was peewee's playhouse. but certainly peewee's Big Adventure he. composed and that's interesting because.

they actually could have potentially. crossed paths on theong show oo Boingo. wasn't the only one on there Paul Rubin. was as he was kind of trying to start to. develop his PeeWee Herman character yeah. he was on well he was on The Dating Game. a few times as sort of the the Proto. PeeWee Herman character uh The Gong Show. 14 times and he he later in his career. credited Chuck bars he was like if it. hadn't been for me getting just the SAG. minimum payment to be on that show uh.

that made me able to focus on my career. and then my work with the Groundlings. improv group and not have to get another. job um and the fact that like I got to. Workshop this character uh it got me in. the public eye like he really kind of uh. credited Chuck Baris with uh not only. helping him but all kinds of struggling. artists um besides Ono Bongo and Box Car. Willie uh Andrea McArdle was a was a. 12-year-old who performed on The Gong. Show and she would get cast as the.

Broadway lead in Annie uh because she. was discovered on that show so you know. things like that were were happening. another singer Nam did you mention cherl. ly I didn't know yeah she got a. recording contract another singer. because of her appearance on the gong. show so she was the one she recorded. that disco hit got to be real I don't. know that song it's got to be. real I got to have it baby you know that. song. I don't I don't know please don't make.

me continue no it's okay I'll look it up. um so yes she she released a disco hit. among other things from what I know but. there's one more thing I wanted to to um. mention about Paul Rubin um he didn't. always do peeee uh one of the things he. did and I could not find a video of it. but I saw it written of um he. impersonated a dripping faucet as one of. his acts that's pretty good yeah I. thought that was very creative it was I. mean he was a groundling he's a very. funny guy he got he was um I.

mean he was known most for peeee. obviously and I think he at times felt. like he was sort of stuck in that. character it became so big he couldn't. do anything else uh but he was also very. in love and appreciative with that. character you know yeah we saw his um Yi. and I went to Los Angeles and saw his. live peew peew Playhouse bet that was. show it was really good and yes he was. trapped in PeeWee Herman for the most. part but he did a great turn in Mystery. Men as the spleen remember yeah good God.

he didn't get enough of those chances. unfortunately but uh but I think we. should do a peeee episode at some point. you bet let's do a a peeee thre. parter all right so uh the end would. come for Chuck Baris as far as his TV. work goes um at his Peak this is. staggering uh and this is you know mind. you a time when there were three main. television networks it was even pre Fox. as far as programming goes uh he was.

supplying um 27 hours a week of of. programming of of TV game shows which is. I mean I don't know what percentage of. that overall you know um of their. overall programming that was but 27. hours a week is you're you're King Daddy. TV if you're doing that yeah you you. literally can fill more than a a full. day of programming every week of new. stuff that's crazy oh totally um and in. 1980 um sort of at the peak I guess it.

was starting to to wne a little bit he. shut it down uh sold his TV company for. um supposedly a hundred million bucks. did a little TV here and there but. basically that was it for him and one of. the reasons and there are many uh you. know taste change and the people were. sort of moving away from that kind of. thing a little bit I think but the show. called threes a crowd that he pitched uh. in the 60s and then would later do a. pilot for in the 70s had a lot to do. with his downfall my goodness so the. original version was one of the most.

abhorent ideas anyone's ever come up. with for a game show it was you were. going to have a man and his wife and. then the man's M mistress and the. mistress and the wife would compete. answering questions like on the Newlywed. Game to see who knew him better. unbelievable imagine and apparently they. made a pilot oh yeah I can't I like. think about how ruined those people's. lives were like even if it sounded like. a lark at the time like just to just to. go through that in actuality had to be.

totally different from the idea of it um. so he revamped it a little bit and then. replac the mistress with the secretary. and it was still the same format and. even that alone proved to be extremely. awkward and uncomfortable to watch yeah. thinly veiled mistress is what they. should have called it sure sure so that. didn't last very long and that one. seemed to um really draw the most ey um. he got the uh. the go the grand gobbler award that year.

from the National Organization for Women. uh which dubbed him the year's largest. living turkey and this he'd been doing. this for decades already but that's how. bad that show was that like they gave. him that and they said that this was. from his his lifetime body of work but. that's how bad threes a crowd was. received um and uh apparently the United. Auto Workers also came out against it um. because they represented a lot of women. workers back then so. the UAW and now came out against it.

really hard and he ended up just saying. like you know what forget it I'm done. not not just am I GNA like Fade Into the. background and keep producing shows he I. think sold Chuck Bear's Productions and. just retreated yeah he retreated uh but. not before he made one final mistake. which was uh in 1980 The Gong Show movie. um pretty much universally known as one. of the worst movies ever made it was uh. Robert Downey uh senior was going to.

write and direct it uh as a slapstick. comedy Chuck Baris didn't like that. direction so he took over his director. uh turned it to a more serious thing. about him and you know Chuck baris's. story of uh and how difficult it was to. be sort of known as the king of schlock. and it was just a a mess. um yeah I didn't see it but I remember. when it came out and I even remember at. the time it being a m of failure yeah it. was a flop right out of the gates not.

just with critics but with audiences too. um and I watched a couple trailers for. it and I mean he didn't seem to have. really gotten rid of the slapstick. element so he tried to com combine a. serious sympathetic look at his life. right with slapstick and yeah it did not. work at all um and if you've ever have. you ever seen ring Master the Jerry. Springer movie oh no is it a documentary. or it's no it's a slightly fictionalized. version where plays himself kind of like. our TV show but it is like there's no.

way Jerry Springer didn't watch The Gong. Show movie and say like I want to remake. that which is basically what he did you. know I think the lesson we can learn. here from our TV show from that one and. from The Gong Show movie is it slightly. fictionalized versions of a real job. don't go over too well they don't work. don't try don't even do it uh you want. to take a break and come back for the. rest of this yeah I mean I think. everyone knows what's hanging out there. uh coming up in act three did Chuck bar.

assassinate people for a living while he. was a TV producer right after thisf. [Music]. [Music].

okay Chuck uh like you said in 1984. Chuck Baris released a um an. autobiography called Confessions of a. dangerous mind the subtitle was an. unauthorized autobiography which is. pretty funny yeah and in it he recounts. apparently as far as the critics concern. were concerned like pretty masterfully. he recounts his life as a game show. producer as a hated um destroyer of. Civility and taste. you know across American culture um and.

just how he dealt with that but some of. the other parts were also part of his. life at the time mixed in where he was. going abroad as a CIA Hitman and. carrying out contract killings for the. CIA 33 of them by his count and he would. describe these in graphic detail. apparently there was one where he writes. about having broken some guy's front. teeth because he jammed the gun with the. silence are in there and really graphic. stuff and he's writing about this.

totally matter ofly and seemingly. totally unironic as if he's revealing to. the world that he he was both this. producers legendary producer and. secretly at the same time a Hitman yeah. and and you know the um the idea was. that he was it was the perfect cover. because nobody would suspect Chuck barer. TV producer king of schlock of doing. something like this so the CIA just. loved it um did you see the movie yeah I. thought it was if I remember correctly I.

thought it was pretty good yeah it was. pretty good um it wasn't great but it. was pretty good it was it was a weird. movie and it was a weird book uh when he. um there were some critics uh I believe. Jeff Simon from Buffalo news said that. Chuck Baris is alive and well and living. in. schizophrenia uh other reviewers tried. to suggest that it was um a metaphor um. and that it's really about a guy that's. struggling so much with his life as an. outsider um that it was you know it was.

all just metaphor wait wait you got to. finish the rest like this egg Gorman guy. really missed the Mark if you ask me all. right suggesting with this conceit is. that he spent his life as an outsider uh. an assassin of sorts dealing with a. species that frightens and baffles him. yeah that's like terribly terribly. terrible I think that a lot of leeway. there for what bars was intending and I. don't know what he was intend ining and. no one really does the uh the only.

interview with any clear sort of. indication that it was all a put on was. one he gave to Regis and Cindy Garvey on. the morning show when the book was. released when he very uh you know in a. very straightforward way said I was not. in CIA I wanted to be uh got an FBI. background check but then got my job. working in television which is what I. wanted to do and that the the version of. me in this book is just a character um. but he did say a character crucified by. the critics for entertaining the public.

um so there you know there was maybe a. little bit of metaphor to it after all. what's weird to me is it doesn't seem. that anyone just took it as face value. is not even a metaphor just an. interesting thing that he did in his. autobiography to punch it up everybody. seems to just be totally perplexed by it. the best explanation I saw uh apparently. he hinted in some interviews that he. used it as a device to point out that. all of those critics and and people in.

like government um who criticized him so. openly and so meanly in a lot of cases. too um would also have totally praised. him for killing on behalf of the. American government U that seems like a. stretch as well but it's better than Ed. Gorman's interpretation I think yeah I. mean it's sort of that and you know I do. agree with this is the American way as. far as entertainment goes which is uh. buo sex and yay violence um but you know.

there's a difference between you know he. wasn't filming like tasteful love scenes. it was it was some pretty blatant. misogyny happening yeah I mean through. and through over and over again even so. like like I was saying a couple of times. at the time this is just how things were. so it really goes to show just how much. over the line he went that he was. roundly criticized and made fun of and. mocked by people for the level of. misogyny his shows displayed that's how. istic his shows were in a lot of cases.

yeah for sure um the CIA for for their. um uh as far as they go they were like. of course uh in 2002 a spokesman named. Tom chrisell for the CIA said uh it's. absurd it sounds like he's been standing. a little too close to the gong all those. years uh which of course Chuck Baris. said yeah of course that's what they're. going to say have you ever heard the CIA. acknowledge someone was an assassin. right it's a good good good point yeah. and it's seemingly a good way to sell. books uh even though it didn't turn out. that way right no it languished in.

obscurity for 20 years before his friend. Andrew Lazar producer picked it up. apparently he sold less than a thousand. copies which was um about 1% of the the. run the first and I guess well the first. run they later re-released it when the. movie came out um but yeah one of his. friends was like you know I've always. thought this was a pretty cool book. let's see what what Charlie Kaufman can. do to it so they had Charlie Kaufman. write a screenplay based on the book and.

no one's ever seen that no one as far as. I well I don't know that no one's ever. seen it there's a script out there that. he wrote but it never got made because. George Clooney came along and like I. said made the decision of NOP we're. going to present all this as face value. we're not going to do anything weird. with it we're just going to basically. shoot the movie version of his his book. yeah I mean an interesting choice uh and. and it was a pretty good movie like Sam. Rockwell was great as Chuck Baris like.

the perfect casting um but man Charlie. Kaufman is so unique in his take and. spin on things I would have really loved. to seen what that movie would have been. yeah I wonder if the script is out there. surely somebody had the wherewithal to. be like this needs to be out there in. the world I maybe we can get our hands. on it I remember years ago my friend um. Stacy who works still works in the film. business would give me screenplays at. the time when she would get them from. from her jobs just to I was trying to. learn how to write scripts and so it's.

always good to read scripts and she gave. me one uh called The Orchid. Thief by Charlie Kaufman and I read it. and I uh I read it in a night and called. her the next day and I was like Stacy. I've never read anything like this. before in my life like this is the. craziest movie and narrative I've ever. heard of and that would become. adaptation such a good movie and that's. the first time I had heard of Charlie. Charlie Kaufman was reading that script. like before they even made the movie.

this is in pre-production yeah and then. he followed that up with um Being John. malovich or vice versa I can't remember. yeah no no he's so no that was first I. yeah because John qak plays a a cameo in. adaptation right yeah yeah I would like. to read that script too the movie itself. did you notice I don't know if this is. just my interpretation but in the early. 2000s about the first decade movies were. like overly polished overly tight um.

yeah the Bob Crane movie what was that. one oh uh at one point your favorite. movie autofocus autofocus right yes it. was just everything is just too polished. too perfect yeah and I think that was a. the um Confessions of a dangerous mind. was another good example uh Catch Me If. You Can I think is the Pinnacle example. of this where these movies are so. refined and so polished and so clearly. done by Hollywood people who've been. doing it for so long that they' kind of. lost the not Edge but just the the heart.

to what they're doing that it's not. actually particularly entertaining for. me yeah I mean with Catch Me If You Can. it makes sense because it's Spielberg. but autofocus was Paul shider so that I. mean he's not known for being slick in. Hollywood so that is uh I I just. remember early on when you and I were. getting to be friends at work he talked. a lot about autofocus I loved that movie. at. first I haven't seen it for a while yeah. good movie yeah Greger what kind of.

casting was that it's just nuts yeah he. was good though so um spoiler alert. Chuck bars died he died in 2017 at age. The Ripe old age of 87 although it's not. entirely clear if he was 87 88 86 yeah. but that's what they put down in his. obituary at 87 he also wrote some other. books over the years he did a followup. to Confessions of a dangerous mind. called um. uh what was it called bad grass Never. Dies I think that he released in 2004.

and he doesn't mention he talks about a. lot of the same scenes does not mention. any of the CIA stuff in that one yeah. which is just it almost like a two over. yeah and I think he was toying with. people I'm not sure but that's my take. um and he said that he wanted to be. remembered I think as a a novelist I. think you said and that's just not how. he was remembered but apparently he was. a good enough author that he's also. remembered in part as a as a novelist. yeah Chuck Baris there's one other thing.

he invented syndication Chuck uh oh. really yeah he created a game called. Parent Game and in 1972 ABC was like no. we don't actually want to do this so he. bought the rights to the game back from. them and went directly to stations and. sold it to stations hence creating the. entire concept of syndication oh wow man. I mean a real Visionary in a lot of ways. and uh just a kind of a kooky guy yeah. uh well Chuck said he was kind of a.

kooky guy and as anyone who's ever. listened to stuff you should know before. knows that Chuck just unlocked listener. mail uh that's right um quick correction. on ADHD guys and we do want to read this. one cuz it's kind of an important thing. we got wrong oh no uh want to point out. a minor correction uh toward the end uh. it was mentioned a couple of brand named. drugs that are amphetamine based. stimulants Aderall uh VI. and. stratera um stratera though guys is one.

of the non-stimulant ADHD medications it. is a selective uh norepinephrine. reuptake inhibitor and is not a. controlled substance I couldn't help. point it out because I'm a pharmacist. and Mis categorizing a pharmaceutical. could keep listeners from trying. something that could help them if they. are adverse to amphetamines great Point. uh regardless I have to say I've always. been meaning to send in an email thanks. for the work you've done Abid listener. for 5 years and it's truly fascinating. to learn about the variety of topics uh.

and I really love the chemistry you guys. have between each other it get it and. that is from Michael an thanks a lot. Michael we really appreciate that that. was a huge Miss and uh thanks for. following up and letting us tell. everybody else that we got it wrong cuz. that is pretty important um and we got a. lot of emails from a lot of people about. the ADHD episode so thanks to everybody. who wrote in about big time it would. seem like a pretty important Suite to a. lot of folks and that means a lot to us. yeah for sure and we actually got people. who were like I had no idea that I had.

ADHD um until you I listened to this. episode and realized you were talking. about me beat for beat like I can't. that's just nuts that we're running. around diagnosing people with ADHD with. the podcast yeah and I had even uh. several personal friends that that knew. they had HD ADHD that were like I never. knew this part of my life was due to. that even and uh that you know that's. great it makes us feel good yeah for. sure uh so if you want to make us feel.

good or you want to point out something. we got wrong doesn't matter you can do. it via email send it off to stuff. podcast at iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts from. iHeart Radio visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to. your favorite shows. [Music].