Forensic Dentistry | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's not. here but she's here in spirit we're all. flashing our pearly whites because we're. in a lineup and this is stuff you should. know that's right earn my case with the. front four are my pearly off-. whites because when they made me my new.

set of four teeth to go up front to. replace my four teeth mhm they were too. white and they looked weird oh really. and they said we can send them back and. have them uh stain them just a bit more. and I went yeah we're gonna have to do. that like uh Matt Dylan and um There's. Something About Mary they weren't quite. uh chicklet white uh but they they were. enough to where they looked a little. different than the others and the others. are just going to you know as teeth do. continue to stain a bit so yeah was like. yeah why don't we go ahead and knock it. knock it down Notch you should have just.

smoked a bunch of cigarettes done it. yourself saved some money I don't think. these implants will uh that's the. problem is they don't stain while the. others are oh okay well then yeah you. definitely need to hand those off for. staining in the lab yeah I'm like why I. just smoked 80 cigarettes uh so today. another and I thought we were done with. forensics but who knew that lurking out. there was the topic of forensic. Dentistry uh which we will learn very. quickly as in right now um kind of can.

be divided up into two things which is. um identification of uh deceased people. or peoples MH from dental records like. when you hear like you know they. perished in the fire but they were able. to identify the body uh and the much. more. controversial uh bite mark. analysis that had been widely used in. court uh and is now generally thought of. by most dentists.

and people in this line of work as junk. science yeah it's I mean just from. researching this it's like what kind of. Judge is still allowing this in as. evidence it's crazy yeah um yeah so I. guess I just revealed my take on on. Forensic Dentistry or bite mark analysis. specifically because the other version. you said identifying um deceased people. is um that's really no it's not it's. pretty pretty much set most I I didn't. read anybody who was challenging it or.

its legitimacy and apparently it's been. really useful over the years because the. teeth are the strongest part of the body. they can survive fire they can survive. exposure to chemicals that could just. get rid of the rest of the body um they. can survive. explosions uh up to I think 2,000. degrees Fahrenheit they can take heat up. up to that uh as anyone who's made it. far enough and Breaking Bad knows that. eventually if it gets hot enough they'll. pop like popcorn but most of the time if. a dead person who's unidentifiable comes.

into a medical examiner's office they. have not been exposed to that level of. heat yeah and even if the teeth. themselves are struggling to hang in. there uh tooth pulp or dental tissue on. the inside of that tooth uh is very. resistant to environmental attacks like. uh incineration uh immersion like you. can be underwater for I was about to say. a million years but that's probably not. true uh but uh immersion trauma. decomposition um so extracting DNA from.

the inside of a tooth is a pretty viable. thing uh but before 1974 all you really. had going was identifying victims of uh. of a disaster usually natural disaster. or human cause disaster um they did not. really get into um crime scene stuff uh. because in 1975 is when that first. became permissible in court where a. murder victim had a bite on her nose and.

three forensic dentists came along and. said hey it's pretty clear this bite. came from this person uh it should be um. maybe the exception to the rule but we. should allow it in court this time yes. and that was a very fateful decision. because as that case made its way. through um appeals in a final appell at. court upheld it that also simultaneously. not only convicted the killer it also it. said this is legitimate by Mark analysis.

is admissible in court it's set a. precedent and the the exception that. those three forensic dentists in their. defense um you know went to bat for for. use in this particular case right became. the rule and there was no longer like. hey this is not actually that great of. an idea it was hey we've got this new. way of Prosecuting scumbags let's use it. to the Max and there was a really famous. case within just a couple of years of it. becoming widely used in America courts.

um that's still celebrated today as one. of the great successes of B Mark. analysis because it's not like every. single case is worse than the last yeah. but there's enough bad cases and enough. people who've been wrongly convicted and. later exonerated based on B Mark. evidence that it should not it's not it. should not be allowed you just go figure. out who did it some other way stop using. bite mark analysis yeah uh dozens of. people um according to the Ence project.

and uh and we should point out from 1975. until just recently like uh 2016 is when. they you know finally made a firm. decision uh which you know we'll hold on. to that one but that's really when. things changed um but I think the case. that you were talking about is forgot. about Ted Bundy uh in 1978 notorious uh. serial killer Ted Bundy uh would sort of. wind up his serial killing career by. wandering into the kai Omega s house at. Sor State University MH and um.

bludgeoning and killing for uh students. sority sisters there uh including uh one. victim where he bit her and left very. clear bite marks and those bite marks. were instrumental in Ted Bundy's. conviction yeah the two Kai Omega women. were who were who died who did not um. manage to live were Lisa Levy and. Margaret. Bowman but he did some pretty terrible. damage to some the other the other two I.

guess um but that bite mark apparently. Ted Bundy had extremely crooked front. teeth so much so and the bite mark was. clear enough that they used that bite. mark analysis in part to convict him for. those murders those were he apparently. admitted to killing 30 women possibly. killed as many as a hundred and so one. of the one of the cases he was. prosecuted for were the kai Omega. murders yeah that's right uh so that's a. good setup um we should just mention.

sort of as far as the. identification the non-controversial. part um adults usually have 32 teeth uh. four incizors four canines eight. premolar 12 MERS and four wisdom. depending on if you still have those and. when you go to the dentist they you know. we've been to the dentist and they they. do a lot of notating they uh notate your. teeth uh variations in your teeth. changes in your teeth if you chip a. tooth any dental work you've gotten like. crowns or fillings or fridges or in my.

case for implants uh periodontal disease. receding gums uh there are X-rays and. there are just the tooth charts and. these are the dental records that we. speak of when they say you know a body. was um identified you know via dental. records it's because of all this work. that you get over the years at the. dentist um I G I guess if you uh well. this doesn't have so much to do with. bite mark analysis I guess it could but. the the records it seem like are mainly. about identific.

yeah and also by law I think every state. requires dentists to keep dental charts. on their patients and then they also. have to retain them for set number of. years depending on which state demands. what so they do come in handy just the. charts alone will like there's not going. to be x-rays with them necessarily. there's not going to be any photographs. just from the charts and the the co the. coding systems that they've worked out. to codify teeth.

can conceivably give you enough um. information that you could use it in. some form of forensic dustry that's how. accurate the charts are meant to be yeah. for sure um so you know we mentioned all. the ways teeth can hang in there and. stay uh you know a part of your skull. and when other parts of your body have. deteriorated um teeth can shrink uh they. can become fragile uh but if you handle. them gently and uh with care you can. preserve them in lacquer and what will.

happen if you need to identify corpse. usually is a dentist um will go to the. mor um they will uh surgically expose. the jaw and examine things uh that's if. you have like you know a pretty recent. um dead body that hasn't decomposed too. much if all you've got is a handful of. teeth that still may be enough due to. those X-rays and charts um but uh if. it's a mass casualties uh a dentist is. going to and these are forensic dentists.

by the way it's a specialty right um. they get a list of possible victims uh. and then you know you start comparing. different records of the different. people to try and sort out who is who. yeah yeah it takes a special kind of. dentist to do this kind of work. because by the time the cadav the corpse. has made it to the forensic dentist. everybody else. Upstream has said like no they don't. have fingerprints their face is. unrecognizable it just keeps going on. and on and on until finally your last.

chance of identifying the person is. forensic dentistry and though often I. mean like if it's a mass casualty you. know you know who is on the plane. apparently that's when it comes in handy. a lot for plane crashes you know all the. passengers on the plane you go get their. dental records you hand them over to the. forensic dentist and say good luck can. you match any of these teeth with these. charts and they're they're I mean. they're a huge part of a forensic team. in like mass casualty events they're. they're really important because again.

they're like The Last Hope of some. families getting closure being able to. like give their loved one a funeral or. something like that like that's the role. that they're they're playing they're not. doing this because they like just. playing with dead people's teeth or. anything like that like they are helping. other humans with their work by. identifying disaster victims I'm not. extending that to bit Mark analysis yeah. yeah for sure um there's a lot of things. you can uh sort of glean from looking at.

a person's teeth about that person uh. it's not the most exact science but uh. we know generally how fast teeth grow. about four micrometers per day so you. can uh estimate someone's age based on. their teeth well not only that you can. also like when your teeth develop as a. human it follows a set pattern so you. can go and look at somebody's. development especially if they're under. age I think 20 something or 35 and say. well they have they've developed this.

tooth but they haven't developed this. tooth so they're probably. 18ish yeah exactly they can get it in a. wheelhouse um sometimes you can learn a. little bit about someone's ethnicity uh. because you know some ethnicities have. teeth that are a little different uh. apparently some Native Americans and. some Asian people have in sizers that. have scooped out backs uh you can. determine Sometimes some. socioeconomic uh background if there's. 's you know a lot of really expensive.

restoration work that'll tell you that. they probably had a lot of money um or. you know at least money to afford that. right uh also the methods that are used. uh are used in some parts of the world. and not in others uh like some. Geographic areas um person's lifestyle. like if they were a smoker uh this is. kind of fun if you're a pipe smoker or. if you play the play the bag pipes you. have a very distinctive wear pattern on. your teeth did you see any pictures of. of a skull with a with a wear from pipe. smoking yeah it's crazy it's like the.

person's teeth like curve up um at some. point like on basically I think it was. the right side of their face be just. from holding a pipe in their teeth for. years and years and years yeah uh and. then just sort of the obvious stuff like. a family member saying like uh no they. were definitely missing that tooth or. that that you know that distinctive. crown with the uh Diamond uh CWB for. Charles W Chuck Bryant I know I can't.

believe you got that still that was. definitely their mouth um or that tooth. was broken um so beyond just dental. records like family members can. sometimes help out I also saw another. lifestyle one was something called a. Taylor's Notch this is pretty arcane but. um if you find a Tailor's Notch there's. a chance that this was a dress maker a. tailor something like that because they. hold pins in their their mouths oh yeah. as part of their profession usually in. their teeth and when you do that enough. times actually wear there's a little. indentation in the tooth that you.

normally hold the uh the the sewing. needle in so uh do you want to talk. about the black death or just keep. moving on uh let's take a break okay all. right we'll take a break and we'll talk. about the black death and then dive into. the more controversial bite mark. analysis. [Music].

uh so we promise talk about the Black. Death Apparently one of the high-profile. um uh I guess forensic Dentistry cases. recently was um a study that looked at. the teeth of or I think it extracted DNA. from the pulp of the teeth of medieval.

villagers who died from the plague mhm. and I guess they were able to exclude. the plague in some cases like people had. died and it was falsely attributed to a. death from the plague that seems almost. inconsequential to me because the other. thing that they did was definitively. prove that uh your Cena pesus which is a. um a bacteria I think a bacteria that's. carried by fleas typically so the rats. came to town the fleas were on the rats.

the bacteria was on the fleas and that's. what spread the Black Death that's what. they've long said and they extracted. that from the DNA of the pulp of teeth. of medieval people who died from the. plague definitely died from the plague. um and said yep here's your Smoking Gun. there's your problem. right yeah and with something this old. if DNA isn't readily available uh M DNA. mitochondrial DNA can also be very. useful I and I also saw the oldest tooth. that they successfully sequenced a.

genome from by extracting DNA from the. pulp was 6,000 years old from about. 4,000 BCE back in 2005 they managed to. do that and you know those people are. still talking about like hey did I ever. tell you about the 4,000 BCE tooth we. extracted DNA from yeah oh boy the smell. of that tooth pulp oh. God good God that was awful I was not. expecting that uh all right so now this. is where things get a little hinky. because we're going to talk about the. other aspect of forensic Dentistry which.

is the very controversial uh very. complex bite mark. analysis which um and we'll get to the. admissibility of it now in a bit uh but. they still do collect the evidence um. which you know you should do I don't. think anyone's saying like hey stop even. doing this as far as evidence collection. goes uh but here's how they do that um. if you see a bite mark or anything you. think is a bite mark in a in a like a. murder case let's say you calling that. forensic dentist um who's just sitting.

around like so happy that they don't. have their hands and in a live human. being's mouth at the time right and uh. they got to do it quick because time is. of the essence because bite marks can. change a lot um pretty quickly. especially if a body has been. deteriorating for a few days like the. the location of that bite may be. entirely different because the skin is. slipping and shrinking yeah that's a big. one um also bruising and lividity can. also um obscure a bite mark or change it.

or alter it so they often have to wait. for the bruise to heal if the human's. still alive or wait for the lividity the. pooling of blood to just kind of come. and go before they really examine it. yeah uh they're going to take pictures. uh with a ruler next to it you probably. seen that in some movies I have I saw it. in Silence of the Lambs right oh yeah. that's right uh bite photography is very. specific and very precise or at least it. should be. uh and then you can magnify those photos.

and stuff um but while they're doing. this the first thing that they're going. to identify is like was it a human bite. or not and seems like a no-brainer like. I could even tell sure but you found a. study from 2015 that doesn't quite hold. up I mean that's about animals and human. differences right yeah there was a 2015. study that found that they um used 39. experts these were um board certified. forensic. odontologists or members of the American.

Board of forensic odontologists the. accrediting body I don't know why I went. into that much detail but there you have. it they're the official people in this. study with this 39 experts they showed. 100 photographs of bite marks and said. okay we want some information about this. are these let's just start with is this. a human bite mark or an animal bite mark. the easiest thing in the world was this. a dog or or an adult human biting this. person exactly and only 8% of the.

photographs so eight of 100 photographs. I just did that math and I'm quite. confident it's correct yeah you nailed. it could um 90% of those experts don't. know what 90% of 39 is come to consensus. that yes this is definitely human or yes. this is definitely animal they did not. age yeah they did not agree on the other. 92. photographs yeah I would think human and. animal would be pretty easy to tell the. difference of but you know apparently. yeah especially if the animal's wearing.

human Dentures at the time. right good point uh yeah like that you. know that cartoon wolf from the old. timey. 1930s cartoon I don't think I know that. oh sure you do he was always like his. eyes would pop out of his head and like. he was a wolf you know like uh yeah yeah. I gotta um so what else. Chuck uh well this is a a pretty. disturbing but I guess helpful thing. that I never knew um after they inspect.

the body for the bite marks and all that. stuff they will actually cut out the. bite mark and preserve it they're like. can I take this home yeah so they will. cut the bite mark from the skin preserve. it from Malahide and then make a. silicone cast of the bite mark which. makes total sense I just never thought. about how gross that would seem yeah it. it is pretty gross I mean the whole. process from start to finish is fairly. gross in that case what kind of bite. marks though can can they make well they. classify them based on the kind of um.

transfer pattern is what they call it. and it's not just specific to forensic. odontology transfer patterns are what. you're looking at when you look at um uh. the rifling on a bullet to try to. identify what gun it came out of which. also apparently is junk science. fingerprints you're transferring your. fingerprint so it leaves a transfer. pattern same thing with forensic. odontology and the different kinds of. forensic patterns are based on the. damage that the bites do so if it. scrapes like if you're I I don't need to.

put it any other way that's considered. an abrasion bite yeah an artifact is. when yeah yeah when there's an actual. part of the body missing from because of. the bite it's not just a bite mark. there's actually tissue or something. missing like a earlobe I think is um. like Evander Holyfield's earlobe yeah I. was about to say MC Tyson Bight so he's. got a fight on Friday oh is he fighting. that guy Friday on.

Netflix shoot I'm not even going to be. here I wanted to see that I'll tape it. for you on the VCR you can tape it all. right send me the tape uh we also have. uh avulsions that is um when just some. of the skin is removed I guess not a an. entire piece of the body MH uh you have. contusions which is of course a bruise. uh if it's profusely bleeding it's a. hemorrhage if it's a nice clean neat. wound then you have a very precise. spider and they call that an incision. and then a puncture wound is a. laceration yes uh and then there's also.

um the different like depths or the the. um obviousness of the bite mark is. another category that they use um and it. starts from lowest to highest it took me. a minute to figure this out because I. don't think the wording they used is. really good agreed a clear impression. means that there was significant. pressure used that's the lowest of the. three categories yes an obvious one. signifies medium pressure which that to. me just just like shows that this is not.

accurate science medium is the a type of. fry order french fry order not the the. you know depth of a bite mark like. medium that's so subjective right yeah. all three of these are and then. noticeable that seems to me like that. would be the the least of the three. that's the the most um the most. pronounced bite mark of all um because. the biter used violent pressure to bite. down yeah yeah it should.

be obvious oh my God and holy crap for. the love of God what was this person. doing yeah for sure there's also some um. some other things that the biter can do. during the biting uh if they you know if. they like use their jaw a bunch it's not. just like one bite where they clamp down. if they bite in succession a few times. MH that was going to leave a totally. different mark from one that is going to.

where they just clamp their jaw down or. something uh if they move their tongue. it will move the skin around and will. affect the bite mark that's left behind. we should have probably given like a. heads up at the outside of this episode. huh well I think forensic Dentistry is a. creepy enough title or maybe I'll title. it forensic Dentistry colon uh enter at. your own risk or something like that oh. good one and then there's another one. too if the victim is being is still it. might which means dead cuz nobody's. going to sit still while they're being.

bitten hard enough to leave a bite mark. that could be used against you in court. but that you know if they're moving. that's going to affect the bite mark. that's left behind too and then of. course also the kind of um tooth profile. they have too right yeah for sure I mean. if you're uh if I would have um bitten. somebody in a violent episode when I had. um my front tooth or my two front teeth. missing it would be pretty obvious when. you saw that bite mark uh Ted Bundy like.

you said had crooked teeth and so that. will leave a crooked impression um. obviously you need chips on your teeth. uh are going to make a more sort of. jagged impression yeah like if you ate a. bunch of chips and they're just stuck. between your. teeth is that what you meant yeah okay. here's a earlobe and some Dorito so. let's put that in an Evidence baggie. you're welcome Dorito for the plug and. then braces you know if you got uh. braces or implants or something or a. bridge um that can leave a pretty.

distinctive impression for sure um once. and this is sort of how it used to work. but once uh they identify a subject. they're going to get a warrant to take a. mold of a suspect's teeth uh so they can. compare it they'll take a lot of. pictures of their mouth and stuff uh. opening closing biting stuff like that. and then in the old days they would go. to court and compare those and and a. forensic dentist would take the stand. and say hey that that looks like that. person's mouth to me um jury um that can.

be a major reason why you convict and in. some cases they would say things like. with a 100% certainty yeah another thing. that they say too that we'll find that. seems to not be at all true is um that. each person's arrangement in teeth like. your mouth everything inside your mouth. is totally unique like your fingerprints. and that apparently is not true at all. but you'll find it all over the internet. as fact yeah I mean there are some.

professional dentists and forensic. dentists that still believe that M uh I. mean that thing I sent you was from last. year yeah and is on the National. Institutes of Health US Government. website and those four accredited. dentists Dental experts Flatout say like. a person's bite mark is unique like DNA. or. fingerprints uh when and I guess we. should probably take a break and get. into the the studies and stuff like that. right but it seems like study after.

study is kind of confirmed that it's. just not the case yeah well let's take. that break and we'll come back and we'll. talk about all the controversy. surrounding bite mark analysis as a part. of forensic. odontology man that's a mouth full. [Music].

all right so uh you did some extra. digging and um you know it was pretty. clear from doing the research that this. is basically known as junk science now. to most most people despite those uh. four people who wrote the article on the. National Institutes of Health right uh. but there was a review uh in 2022 in a. report from the.

nist uh what does that stand for the. National Institute of Standards and. Technology they're like a a federal. agency if I'm not mistaken yeah okay so. they released this report that um said. and there were previous reports that. we'll talk about too I guess but this is. the most recent that said bite mark. analysis is not real science uh uh and. it's based on these three sort of faulty. premises uh one which you already. mentioned uh which is that uh person's. um Dental pattern is unique to that.

person and you know there haven't been. any studies that really confirm this. there was a 2013 study from uh the. United Arab Emirates that found and I. think there's is that a sort of a. dental um capital of the world because I. saw a lot of dentists from like Saudi. Arabia and the U AE yeah no I didn't. know that I didn't see that maybe I I. have a hunch that that's the case so. maybe someone will confirm or deny that. um but that study found that. 51% of the 2,000 Dental charts they.

examined were unique so one more than. half and the rest were identical to at. least one other uh the only thing I'll. say in defense is that it may not be. truly unique but if 49% are unique then. that's unique enough to talk about maybe. not to be used in. court but enough to talk. about yeah yeah in my opinion yeah for. sure but the the fact is that study and.

we should also caveat that with the uh. fact that this study used dental charts. only and they made sure that they were. highly high quality dental charts that. they examined but the fact that they. were able to find Dental charts that. were identical between two people. totally undermines the um the idea that. everybody's mouth is is unique. everybody's teeth Arrangement is unique. seems like about half of them are yeah. if you go by the data here yeah and this.

was 2,000 Dental charts they didn't. choose like three like this was a a. pretty decent high quality study and um. yeah I think it totally undermines that. but like you said yes there's also. enough uniqueness that you can kind of. use this and I think like you said. nobody's really saying like stop doing. bite mark analysis entirely right the um. and the actually in their defense the. American Board of forensic odontology. says they basically admit like hey we.

made some mistakes in the past we've. cleaned up our act we've revised our. guidelines and now if you're a. legitimate forensic odontologist the. furthest you will go is um to make three. different calls one exclude meaning that. this person's teeth could not have. possibly made the bite mark that you're. showing me cops yeah not exclude which. which is only saying it's possible I'm.

not going to go any further than that. but it's their their teeth resemble. enough uh this bite mark pattern this. bite pattern um that it's possible that. this person made it and then. inconclusive and that's as far as. they're supposed to go they're not. supposed to in that sense they're not I. guess you could testify those three. things but if the prosecutor is like. okay so so not exclude you're saying. it's his right they're they're supposed. to bail essentially at that point. they're not supposed to go any further. than that that's the standard in the. guidelines for forensic dentists doing.

bite analysis B Mark analysis today but. there's still plenty of people out there. who are going beyond that yeah and you. know that's the kind of situation too. where you also have to really uh educate. a jury over like the data on what that. really means you know what I'm saying. and say like hey half the time these. aren't unique so you have to understand. that going in um so you know that that. was the first thing and you know that. there was that one case that you sent.

where uh and this kind of factors into. um number two number one was that. they're they're unique uh number two is. that the patterns can be accurately. transferred to the human skin uh because. we've already talked about the fact that. there can be a lot of distortion uh by. Skin's elasticity and if the person like. sort of does a sawing motion it. completely distort the the bite mark uh. but you sent that one case of the guy. who was convicted who was uh missing a. too entirely which should show a pretty.

clear um like hey we can exclude this. one because uh the bite mark didn't have. a gap but the they were like yeah but if. he grinded his teeth and kind of did a. sawing motion it could look like this. and he was found guilty you know and he. was not guilty yeah he was sentenced to. jail I think was that Roy Brown yeah in. 2007 okay so yeah he spent almost 20. years in jail 15 years from '92 to 2007. large based on that that bite mark.

analysis testimony yeah and and the both. forensic dentists that worked on that. case recanted their testimony right like. completely yeah that was a big one too I. think maybe in one of those cases where. they were appealing it I don't know if. it was Roy Browns but there have been. plenty of forensic ontologists who have. gone back and been like what I was. saying apparently is not right or. grounded in science I recant my. testimony and at least one judge that I. read was like well we didn't really need. you the jury could have come to the same.

conclusion that the bite mark matched. their teeth so I'm not going to overturn. this case which is nuts in and of itself. but Roy Brown is far from the only. person who has um been exonerated after. being convicted on bite mark analysis. too right like um hav't there been like. at least. 26 people yeah at least 26 that DNA. evidence is now cleared where bite mark. analysis was if not the Smoking Gun like. a pretty key part of the the jury's you. know findings yeah there remember when I.

was saying some um expert Witnesses on. the stand say like this it's 100% match. that happened to a guy named Roy cron uh. he did 10 years based on B Mark analysis. because you got to understand if you're. a juror and the prosecution is saying. like this person is an expert in in. forensic odontology and that expert. tells you the jurors there is a 100%. match between that man's teeth and this. bite mark on this murder victim it's. going to be tough to overlook that for. the average juror I would.

guess yeah for sure uh and you know the. big change that you were talking about. with just excluding uh that came about. in. 2016 um we've mentioned some other. studies there was one we didn't mention. in 2009 when the National Academy of. Sciences uh released a report about a. lot of problems with a lot of forensic. science uh but one of those was bite. mark. analysis and um they basically said and. this was in 2009 it still took till. to make that change official was uh they.

said there's no scientific studies that. support the assertion that bite marks. provide sufficient detail for positive. identification uh and then a few years. after that um doctors from the American. Board of forensic odontology like we. said that's sort of the main body or is. the main body um participants in a study. there of certified dentist uh. overwhelming number of them couldn't. even agree whether they were looking at. a bite mark at all yeah there was. another thing too I think from that same. study where they took the same experts.

and went back to them eight weeks with. the exact same photos they'd shown them. eight weeks before and some of those. experts didn't even agree with their. previous assessments wow yeah so that. was um and they weren't like hey you. said this before what do you think now. it was like they I think they thought. that this was a new set of bite marks. and they were just basically guessing is. what they found so it's been pretty. thoroughly debunked um I but people. still use it the Innocence Project has.

really taken an interest in this and I. think rightfully so um we did an episode. on that with guest hon if I remember. correctly uh and uh yeah so they're a. group that go around and basically try. free people who were railroaded or. wrongfully convicted usually based on. DNA evidence that wasn't heard in their. case and so one of the things that. they've done is taken interest in B Mark. analysis and one of the roles they play. now is I don't know how they keep their. finger on the pulse but if a prosecutor. which is very rare these days from what.

I understand tries to introduce B Mark. analysis into uh a case the Innocence. Project will show up and be like we. object to that this is not science this. should not be yeah admitted and I think. they're fairly successful they throw. tomatoes at them for. sure uh there was another case you found. a pretty striking one a guy named John. uh kko uh he was convicted of uh rape. and assault in 1991. and the main evidence uh that got him.

convicted um was identification of his. voice by the victim uh a comment he. supposedly made at a party and then bite. mark on the victim's shoulder um all the. evidence was was a problem the um the. comment that the party that he. supposedly made was not cor uh. corroborated by I always have trouble. with that word it's a hard word. corroborated by any other people at the. party uh The Voice ID was made from a. police officer's imitation of kko and. his lisp to the victim so have no idea.

how that got through yeah and then uh I. believe the the bite mark was um. infrared light analysis of a bite mark. that had already healed this is a big. one so there is a forensic odontologist. from Mississippi named Michael West and. he essentially just changed careers to. be an expert witness in forensic a. onology that's how he made his living. and he came up with a technique called. the West. phenomenon wherein you can according to.

him using some special goggles and a UV. light you can um basically resurrect a. bite mark That's healed years later and. see it well enough that you can compare. it to a suspect's bite and and use it to. convict he totally made it up apparently. at least in the first case that he used. it on he took photographs but he. wouldn't share them with anybody so it. was just his testimony that this person. was was convicted on and it became a. tool of the trade so other people.

including JN conko were convicted in. part because of this West phenomenon. which is part of overall junk forensic. science so this was the junkiest of the. junk that people were being convicted on. did he also sell the special goggles on. his website yeah they but he sold them. as x-ray goggles that you could right. look right through people's clothes with. yeah it was a picture of him with his uh. looking at his hand and the bones. yeah with exclamation points coming off.

of his head yeah uh so yeah I mean this. is um everything changed in 2016 um one. of the big things that happened I think. there was a a case uh in Texas a guy. named Steven Cheney was released by the. Texas court of appeals and this is the. Texas court of appeals they're not big. on releasing uh right you know convicted. criminals I noted that too uh but the. Texas forensic science Commission in. 2016 uh because of this you know kind of. fraudulent bitemark evidence in Steven. Cheney's case they were like we need to. stop this and I think that was kind of a.

big case that kind of you know really. jump started the whole uh we maybe not. scrap the whole thing but where they. ended up which is it can exclude but it. can't positively identify yeah you just. use it to exclude that's what most. people can agree on for bite mark. analysis is as far as they'll go. yeah uh Chuck did I ever tell you about. Paul R in frenic. odontology no but hey it's it's a good. little historical cherry on top right. yeah so Paul Riv in addition to being a.

blacksmith he was a dentist too and one. of the things he did he was one of the. first forensic. odontologists uh who used dental records. based on his own knowledge too he made. you know um dental work for a lot of. people in the Revolutionary War um and. he identified some of those people. including Dr Joseph Warren the man who. sent him on his fateful ride where he. shouted the British are coming the. British are. coming B pow yeah pretty amazing huh.

yeah that's a good one thanks uh I think. that's it for forensic odontology right. yeah and man that may be it for our long. long running forensic Suite I can't. believe that there could be anything. else but I also said that last time yeah. I disagree but yes we'll find out you. think I'm GNA go find something uh maybe. I mean someone will write in and be like. guys you've covered crime scene cleanup. blood spatter analysis fingerprinting. DNA I mean the list goes on and on yeah. you forgot forensic foot smelling and. we're going have to go do that one may.

one I didn't know about that's it it was. the dog I smell Fritos right nice uh oh. actually I can do this old school too. cuz if you want to know more about. forensic Dentistry you can go check out. a house stuff works article that we used. in part for this episode that is kicking. at old school isn't it yeah one of the. rare articles that we didn't cover that. is still good for us yeah and since I. kicked at old school then it's time for. listener mail. all right I'm going to call this another. ADHD followup this is a this is a good.

one um hey guys I had to write in after. the ADHD episode uh during the first. episode I had to pull over into a. parking lot because honestly guys I. started crying oh wellow yeah uh I have. ADHD and I have never had my life. explained on a podcast before uh. everyone's experiences uh are different. for sure and I think you did an. incredible job explaining the base. challenges uh I also appreciated Chuck's. h y to call it a disorder uh it is. defined as a disorder but so there's.

nothing wrong medically with calling it. one but it does hurt just a little even. as an adult when people call it a. disorder without thinking about the. person MH who has it uh I appreciated. the optimism with which you both spoke. about the challenges and how they can be. managed uh especially Josh uh the only. thing I would add to that is the. subtopic uh would be to find people who. accept you before they try and change. you uh when I feel that people love and. accept me as me. I am far more willing to accept their. help with managing my.

ADHD uh don't approach someone like. you're going to fix them approach them. because you love them uh and they will. receive your honest offer to assist man. that is some good ADHD advice right. there and just good life advice uh your. podcast reminded me that there are a lot. of people out there like me and I hope. that a lot of people out there who are. trying to take this particular challenge. um do amazingly positive things with it. and that is from Steve thanks a lot. Steve what a great email yeah appreciate. it Steve that uh those episodes were.

were a big deal for us for a lot of. reasons and uh it seems like people. responded so we're proud of them for. sure if you want to be like Steve and. tell us that you had to pull over. because you were so overcome by. something we did or said we love that. kind of thing especially if it was. positive not because it was so terrible. that you had to pull over uh but even if. that was the case you can still email us. either way send it off to stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. [Music].

stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].