Dolls and Dolls, Guys! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and well, I should say merry. Christmas and welcome [music] to the. podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and. Jerry's here, too. And. >> [music]. >> uh we bid you good tidings. We're. decking your halls and uh giving you. lots of joy on this festive day. Uh. yeah. Yeah, we're decking your halls if.

you give us consent, of course, [music]. to do so. >> Sure. >> We would never deck halls uh just. willy-nilly. >> No, I mean, oh, >> we're good guys. >> That's right. [laughter]. Wow. This this got odd very quickly. >> Uh this is our annual sort of uh toy. episode and we've covered some specific. dolls in the past, notably Cabbage Patch. Kids. >> and you had to brainstorm like what. about just dolls? What the heck is up. with those weird little things?

>> I sat up in the middle of um the night. one night and went, "Oh, right.". >> And you was like, "What happened?". [laughter]. >> And she was holding a a chatty Cathy. [laughter]. >> That's right. Oh, I can't wait to get to. that part. Oh my gosh. Uh yeah, we're. talking about dolls themselves and it is. a pretty broad category, but actually. it's a little more specific than I. realized, Chuck. And one of the things. that um right off the bat that I had no. idea about is that there's almost no.

specific definition of dolls. No one can. can make an actual set definition. The. reason why is because you're like, "Well, what about this? Well, what about. that?" Anytime you try to alter the. definition to please everybody. It's. it's the best example of how you can. please uh some people some of the time, but not everybody ever. That old saying. Yeah, that old saying. Uh, the. definition that we agreed on was that a. doll is a toy. >> Um, and we all know what a doll looks.

like. It's a it's like a model of. usually a human type figure. >> I saw that it has to be human to be. considered a doll. >> Sometimes it's a baby. Sometimes it's a. grown-up. It's not an action figure. We. kind of covered that difference in our. G.I. Joe episode. >> Mhm. But what a doll specifically is. beyond just looking like a human is it. aids in kids development because there. have been plenty and plenty of studies. over the years that have reinforced the. fact that dolls teach kids a a lot of. things a lot of great things uh empathy.

and and patience and recognizing. emotions among many other things. >> Yes. So, just real quick, that excludes. that definition excludes things like. puppets, um, like you said, action. figures, statueets, but it also, I think. very weirdly, excludes animal dolls, like stuffed animals. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then one other thing I would. add to the definition is that they have. to be in some way, shape, or form. huggable. >> Okay. >> And that's it. Uh so recognizing.

emotions is a big one for uh kids as. long as holding on to dolls like rec. because a lot of times the kid will be. like the surrogate uh for what the kid. might be feeling. You know Chatty Kathy. is feeling uh bored or angry and that. means the kid's not comfortable saying. that to the parent. So they talk through. the doll but not in a creepy way. >> Is Chhatty Kathy your go-to doll? >> So far I I'll move on to Betsy Wetsy. soon enough. [laughter]. Chatty Kathy is pretty fun to say.

>> Yeah. >> Um, another thing, this is also, I. think, Playroom Collective laid out some. good examples and these are some of the. ones that they said. Another one is. practicing caregiving where, um, it can. be anything from changing the doll's. diapers to comforting the doll when it's. sad or scared. Um, and that teaches. emotional availability, teaches problem. solving, and then it also requires. perspective taking because just because. the doll is scared or sad doesn't mean. the kid feels that way, right? Right.

Then so that means that the kid is. learning how to put themselves in other. people's shoes and understand how other. people can feel differently than how you. can at the time. And it helps with. empathy. >> Yeah. They can put themselves in their. tiny little one- inch shiny patent. leather shoe. >> That's right. >> That Chatty Kathy has, >> right? >> Uh if you, you know, want to talk about. traditional gender roles, we're going to. talk a lot about that because, uh, dolls. have long been associated with girlhood.

Um, that wasn't always the case. It. started by like the 1940s. Uh, by the. turn of the century, toys were kind of. marketed, you know, uh, to boys and. girls equally. But in the 1940s, they. were like, "Hey, we could probably sell. a lot more stuff if we really market one. thing to girls and one thing to boys.". And then all of a sudden, we're buying. twice as much stuff. Isn't that nuts? That's That's apparently where gendered. toys came from. >> Totally. >> Around that same time, too, pink became.

the color for girls and blue for boys. And it didn't come from nowhere. We've. talked about it before, but it used to. be the opposite where pink was for boys. and blue for girls because pink was a. red tone and red tones were considered. too harsh for girls at the time. >> That's right. I never thought of pink. being a red tone, but it totally is. >> Yeah, for sure. You can't deny it, Chuck. >> Uh there was a study in 2017 that more. than uh this is interesting. more than. 3/4 of the people that were surveyed. said it was really good to encourage uh.

girls to play with like boys toys or do. boy things. >> Mhm. >> Um but uh and it went up to 80% for. women and millennials saying that. But. when it came to boys, only 64%. So there. are far fewer families saying, you know, uh William, you should play with your. doll, reference to Free to Be You and. Me, the great song William Wants a Doll. Uh and there are way way more families. telling their girls like you should go. play with trucks or rough house. >> Yeah. Go jump off that dirt pile. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah, that clearly means we have a.

long way to go still. Um but there, you. know, there are a lot of dolls that have. made headway um in empowering girls. Um. showing that women can take uh like male. do jobs in male dominated fields. Like. Barbie has a million different careers. a lot of them like engineering and. science and technology. She's been to. space for God's sake. Um, and I I think. American Girl dolls, there's one one.

girl at least who has a backstory um. where she has lesbian aunts who live in. Australia randomly enough. And then of. course, Chuck, we couldn't possibly talk. about how Earring Magic Kin wasn't a. groundbreaking doll. >> Yeah. I mean, Earring Magic Ken came out. in 1993. Uh, you take one look at Earring Magic. Ken and it's pretty clear that it's a a. queerccoated doll. Um, he has his his. diamond stud earring in one ear. He's. wearing a purple mesh crop top. Uh, there was some controversy surrounding.

the necklace he wore that I won't even. get into because this is a Christmas. episode, but you can look it up if you. want. >> I saw that, too. >> And um, of course, Mattel was like, "That's preposterous. This is a kids. toy." Uh, but it was very hot in the gay. community. um selling out all over the. place. Um maybe the hottest selling, well definitely the hottest selling Kind. Doll of all time. Maybe the bestselling. of all time, Mattel won't say, but uh it. sold for 6 months like any ordinary sort. of special release Barbie. And uh.

evidently sold like hotcakes. >> Yeah. And one other feature that um is. often overlooked, he had a pull cord. that made him talk and the only thing he. said is, "The boys are out tonight.". So, Chuck, I say we move on to the. history of dolls. You want to talk about. that or even where the word doll came. from? >> Yeah, this is something I didn't know. It's a doll was a nickname for Dorothy. Uh I always thought Dot was the only. nickname for Dorothy. Uh but apparently. dating back to like at least the 16th. century, there was a a weird thing.

happening where people would substitute. L's for R. So Harold could be Hal, Mary. could be Maul or Molly, and Dorothy. could be Doll. Yeah, it was a bigger. trend than slap bracelets is today. >> Oh, wow. >> So, the earliest use of the word doll. goes back to the 1500s. And it was a pet. name for a girlfriend or spouse, right? You didn't just have to be named Dorothy. and that be your nickname. It was. extended. >> Come here, doll. >> Yeah. >> Doll face. >> for Yeah, exactly. Right. So, you're.

like you're it's a term of endearment. for a girlfriend or a spouse. A century. later, it became an insult for a loose. woman. So everybody got dumped. apparently and then by around 1700 it. was finally used to describe a child's. toy to say this is a doll and people are. like well wait a minute what about. stuffed animals? What about marionets? [laughter]. >> Then someone said you think a puppet is. a doll. >> Yeah. >> What kind of psycho are you? >> So many people think that they're going. to have to explain that on a podcast one.

day. >> Right. [laughter] They're like you think. a hot dog is a sandwich? >> Why is that doll got strings coming out. of it? Uh, well, speaking of strings, uh, yeah, there's some strings in these. dolls, ancient dolls, Egyptian paddle. dolls that date back to the Middle. Kingdom, like 2,00 to,800 B.CE. They. were a flat piece of wood, so they. weren't, you know, uh, human shaped as. far as three-dimension uh, threedimensionality goes, but uh, they. were cut like a woman's torso and they.

had tattoo-like designs and hair made up. out of bead strings. Uh but. archaeologists are like this isn't. really a doll doll doll. I think it was. more like a a percussion instrument for. like religious rituals. You could shake. that thing. >> They do think in the ancient world that. dolls played dual roles. One was for. rituals like you were just describing. and then also that they were for play in. the same way that dolls can develop. children today. Um they were used to. kind of indoctrinate kids into culture.

and society. And they're basing that in. part on how there's still dolls like. that around today, like the um Akuaba of. the Fonte and Akan people of Ghana. They. have ritual dolls that kids also play. with at the same time. >> Yeah. Well, the uh dolls in ancient Rome. were definitely sort of the early. Barbies because they were not baby. dolls. They were dolls that look like. grown-up Roman women. >> And the girls who played with them were. like it was just like having a Barbie. It was like here is what we think the. idealized image of a Roman woman is a.

wife and a mother and uh here go play. with this thing and and try and look. like that one day. [laughter]. >> Right? So um the even before the Romans. they they found um dolls in Greek. burials and the reason why they found. them is because girls would play with. dolls when they got married. They would. consecrate they would sacrifice. essentially the dolls to Artemis in. exchange for fertility in their. marriage. And then if they never got. married, they were buried with their.

dolls. >> Is that bittersweet? >> Kind of just bitter. >> Oh, okay. >> I'm looking for the sweet. I guess. you're buried with your toy that you. loved. >> Yeah, that's the sweet part for sure. It's like the nougat of that situation. >> All right, I'll take it. >> All right, we promised talk of Aerosmith. and their great great great song Ragd. Doll. >> I thought the same thing, too. [laughter]. Come on up and see me. That song's. >> new version of an old scene. [laughter].

>> Oh, I guess that song's okay. That was. Late Error Smith. They put out a bunch. of songs like that for a while. >> Oh, I can't imagine how bad the subtext. is, though. >> Oh, sure. I never really thought about. that, but you're right. I think I don't. know if there is an Aerosmith song where. there wasn't a sexual subtext, you know. >> I don't think so either. They were. really into sex. >> Oh, no. That uh Love in an Elevator. song. That was just talking about. elevators going up and down. >> That's right. Yeah. >> Sponsored by the Otis Corporation. [laughter].

>> That's right. >> Oh man, I'm glad you could call that up. Uh rag dolls, not Aerosmith, but you. know, the little floppy uh dolls made. out of fabric and not, you know, hard. dolls that you can bang against the. wall. um they have been around for a. long long time since the ancient world. but because they are made out of things. like um you know cloth and linen and. cotton and things like that they would. disappear before our very eyes over. thousands of years. So there's not a ton. of examples of those but there are some.

right. >> yeah but it also raises the question. like how long have humans been playing. with dolls? We have no idea for that. very reason because almost certainly. dolls would have been made out of. perishable materials very early on. But. yeah, the oldest we found is 2,000 years. old, Chuck. It was found in a a trash. pile in Egypt. And um it was linen. stuffed with some papyrus. Had some. paint on it at one point, but now all. that's left there's a single bead that. was once once attached to its hair.

>> So, but it's 2,000 years old, so give it. a break, you know. >> Yeah, sure. Of course. >> But what about in North America? There's. a doll that says, "I'm the oldest." And. everyone says, "Yes, you are." Yes, that's right. There is a ragd doll, the. oldest ragd doll in North America. It. belonged to a little girl who was blind. named Clarissa Field from Massachusetts. >> And the girl the the actual girl was. born in 1765. And I think this is a great deep cut. band name. She named her doll Bangwell. Putt. Yeah, it is a great band name for.

sure. >> because no one will know what it is. except for the rare stuff you should. know listister and they'd be like bro. you named your band Bangwell butt after. the oldest ragd doll, >> right? Or visitors to the Pakum Valley. um memorial association in Deerfield, Mass, which is where it's kept now. >> Yeah, I guess they would know that. Um. but there the I guess you could call it. creepy looking. I I didn't find it that. creepy, but this dog this dog this doll. has no facial features. Um there's just.

a blank face. Um but there are 10. individually um sewn fingers and thumbs. Uh which might be a reason that uh young. Clarissa, like I mentioned, um she was. blind and it might have uh sort of um. indicated the importance of touch for. her. Yeah, I I saw that um the the noace. rag doll may have actually evolved out. of the tradition from corn husk dolls. which didn't have faces because some of. the northeastern uh North America tribes.

um had legends about why the the corn. goddess removed the face of the corn. husk doll because she was getting too. vain. So that's why Cornhus dolls don't. have a face. And that's possibly why. Ragd Doll um dolls don't have a face. either, like Bangwell Putt. >> Like Bangwell Putt. And to be clear, no. facial features. There's a face, but. there's no eyes, nose, or mouth, or uh. you know, eyebrows. All the things that. make a face. >> What about eyelashes?

>> No eyelashes, no pimples, no freckles, >> pores. >> No freckles, no wrinkles, no pores. What else is on the face? I'm looking at. my face. Um, nose hair, >> beard, nose hair, mustache. >> Yeah. >> All right. I think we covered it. >> Okay. I know for a fact we left. something like the mouth out. Something. super glaring. >> Oh, I said mouth. And inside the mouth, everything counts as mouth. So, don't. come at me with teeth and tongue. >> Exactly. I'm glad you said that, Chuck.

>> That should be on a shirt. Don't come at. me with teeth and tongue. It's the stuff. you should know way. >> Yeah. >> What about Victorian dolls? Well, this is really really where doll. um obsessions I think kind of start to. take off because up to this point rag. dolls like you got to be a pretty niche. collector to be collecting like 18th. century rag dolls. Victorian dolls is. where people are like give me all of. these. Um and one of the reasons why is. because doll making became a real art uh.

by the 15th century and the seed of it. originally was Germany. They had Dacan. mockers, which are doll makers. Um, and. they were for aristocratic families who. were the only ones that could afford. these things because they were works of. art. >> Yeah. Works of art that very keely uh. looked like them. >> Uh they really showed their sort of. obsession with their own selves and. their own class. >> Uh they were made from porcelain and not.

because that was just some superior. material. They were literally made from. porcelain because they thought that. represented um the ideal skin tone, that. porcelain white. Um they were dressed. very fashionably, obviously. Uh they had. human hair wigs apparently from the hair. of workingclass girls. >> Mhm. >> And they were true status symbols. >> Yeah. Like you would you would be. painted with them a portrait. That's. pretty big status symbol at the time, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> So, one of my favorite things, so Dave.

helped us with this. Um, thank big head. to to Dave. Um, and and merry Christmas, Dave. Um, and apparently around the time. of uh Prince Albert's death, he was. trapped in a can. Uh, he died in 1861. It's Queen Victoria's husband, by the. way. Um, like funerals and mourning like. became all the rage. We often associate. like mourning and and death stuff and. momento mory with Victorians and this is. why. And so, um, dolls were not immune.

to this trend. And little girls were. given death kits to use with their. dolls. >> Yeah. So, like here's your doll and. here's your little baby coffin and your. little outfit that you should wear. And. they would, you know, when you play. doll, you play all kinds of facets of. life. And that's one of the things about. dolls that you'll see over and over is, you know, whether you're pretending to. be a, you know, cooking dinner in your home or. you're uh doing other household things. or you're, you know, now you're mourning.

because somebody has died. So you're. sort of acting out and these things that. you would do later as adults, which. again is another sort of important facet. of dolls. But today, it's like if your. kid is acting out a funeral with their. doll, it would be eye-catching, attentiongrabbing. I think. >> Yeah. I mean, you might sign them up for. therapy or something. When in fact, I. think it's a pretty normal thing. >> I think it is, too. But it would. definitely make you stop and say like, "Hey, what what what you doing with your. doll right now?". >> Yeah, for sure.

>> Like, you wouldn't just pass the room. and see it and just walk off shaking. your head and laughing and be like, "My. kid.". >> Yeah. They do the darnest things. Um I I. want to hear though if anybody has a kid. and they've ever found their kid um. performing a funeral for their doll, I. want to hear about it. >> Yeah, that'd be a good listener mail. >> Um so dollous also really kind of came. around at this time too, like the. dollhouse as we think about it. >> Yeah. >> Um and that was thanks to the Victorians. and that's why dollhouses are always. very nice and big. Uh because they were.

basically what the Victorian aristocracy. thought that houses should look like at. the time. And again, remember you said. that Victorian girls were being trained. to how to behave in society through. their dolls. Same thing with the. dollhouse, too. It's like, here's the. scullery, here's the bathroom with. indoor plumbing. Like, these are all the. things you [laughter] need to demand and. expect when you grow up and get married. >> Yeah. Ring this bell if you're hungry. >> Right. So, you know, we talked a little. bit about the complicated history of um.

of race and and facial features when it. comes to race and skin tone and stuff. like that with dolls. And so, we have a. a whole kind of robust section here on. the history of uh black dolls because. it's a pretty complex story. >> Yeah. >> Uh as far as race and self-image goes. And. >> the first um one we're going to talk. about is called the Topsy Turvy Doll. It's a really good example um because it. was a doll that had two heads. It had a. long skirt to conceal sort of one side.

Um one head was white, one head was. black. And you know, depending on which. way you held the doll, you were playing. with a white doll or a black doll. >> And people, you know, there isn't text. that says exactly why this thing was. invented, but everyone pretty much. agrees, like scholars that have studied. this thing, is that it originated in. anti in the antibbellum south. uh they. were made by enslaved black women as. dolls for their daughters. And the idea. is, hey, uh we have to take care of uh. the white kids during the day and then.

we have to take care of our own children. at night. And if dolls are to represent. what you are to be doing when you grow. up or maybe, you know, later on in your. life, then you need a two-headed doll to. care for the white doll in the day and. the black doll at night. >> Yeah. Um, that's not the worst of how. the whole thing started. The Jim Crow. South, the Jim Crow era saw the rise of. a lot of very um racist dolls that were. available. You could buy from cataloges. like Montgomery Ward. Um, which is not.

surprising. But the the thing to. understand about that is that this. helped lay the groundwork for um. reinforcing social norms about the. inferiority. of black people in America and the. superiority of white people in America. And it wasn't like, "Hey kid, don't. forget black people are inferior, white. people superior." It was much more. subtle and much more pervasive than.

that. um through dolls like the black. dolls were not particularly cute. They. were sometimes ugly. They certainly. weren't um accurate representations of. black people or black kids. >> Yeah, >> white dolls were they were very pretty. They were collector's items. They were. gorgeous in a lot of cases. They were. the doll that you wanted. And that sent. this signal to black kids being raised. in America at the time like if you're. black, you should feel pretty pretty. much about yourself how you feel about. this doll. And you should feel about. white people how you feel about this.

doll. Very pretty, huh? >> Yeah, exactly. Uh I mean it makes it all. the more nefarious I think because these. are children, >> right? >> Uh like the more subtle it is, the more. nefarious it is. Uh and this culminated. in the 1940s uh with what was called the. doll tests uh from my Kenneth Clark. Uh. it was pretty groundbreaking experiments. where they traveled all over America uh. and they would give uh little black kids. two dolls uh that were identical to one. another except for the skin tone. >> And then they would ask him a lot of.

questions like, "Give me the doll that's. a nice doll. Give me the doll that you. think is a nice color." And. overwhelmingly the positive traits from. these little black kids were assigned to. white dolls and the negative traits were. assigned to black dolls. And the saddest. part about all this is when they asked. kids, "Give me the doll that looks like. you," a lot of these little kids would. uh were ashamed to admit that they look. like the black doll, and they would like. start crying and run from the room. because they couldn't even admit it.

>> Yeah. So, this was. >> just brutal. >> It is brutal. But it also was just. groundbreaking research that the Clarks. create created. >> Yeah, for sure. And um it was so. groundbreaking and so um convincing that. the NAACP came to them and said, "Hey, can we use this in these cases there?". They had five cases going on that. eventually got attached into the Brown. versus Board of Education case that the. Supreme Court eventually heard that was. successful with the Nino decision uh to.

overturn segregation in public schools. That's how convincing this these doll. tests were that they were they were. cited in some of these cases and Kenneth. Clark testified at some of the cases as. well and wrote up the social science. testimony that the Supreme Court. considered in the case. >> Yeah, pretty amazing result uh from that. study. Um. >> Sarah Lee Creech uh was a doll maker I. guess who created the Sarah Lee doll in. 1951 and that was the very first. realistic black baby doll produced in. the US. Uh but not to be outdone during.

the black power movement, uh Baby Nancy. came along and that was uh kind of in. the middle of the the 65 Watts riots. Uh. it was a blackowned company called. Shindana Toys and it was the very first. doll with realistic afroentric features. Uh it was not like, hey, let's let's run. a run of white dolls and then just. change the skin tone and color them. brown. Um, this baby Nancy was a a you.

know, a little black baby doll and it. was a really hot selling doll in LA uh. and beyond. I think the production. couldn't keep up that year uh because. they were such a hot sellers. >> Yeah, it was a great success for sure. And the Sarah Lee doll, again, this was. the first like semi accurate um doll, but there was still a lot of features. that weren't quite. >> um what what black children look like. The baby Nancy was like unmistakably had. cute tight little curls and it was like. this is the first like legitimate.

African-American doll anyone's ever. made. >> I thought that was pretty cool. >> Yeah, it's amazing. Very cute doll. actually. >> So, um. >> I mean I'm not into dolls cuz you know I. play with trucks. >> Okay. >> But if I played with dolls, Pay Nancy. might be my doll. >> I can't remember. Did you have a cabbage. patch? >> Uh I did. Uh, sort of. We we bought a. bunch of them uh when they were handmade. by the original uh Xavier Roberts guy. >> Creepy panty hose dolls, right?

>> They uh and they they assigned a couple. of them to me as mine, but they were. never like in my room. And it's not like. it was like don't put that in my room. I. don't know why they did that. It was. weird. They were like here's Scott's two. and your two and here's Michelle's. >> and don't touch them. >> I know. I think they're worth a little. bit of money. Oh, I'm sure. >> mine I do remember mine as as a little. boy and a girl and it's uh their shirts. and I guess the doll whatever they were. were My Little TV star or something like. that. >> So, I don't know that one. [laughter]. >> I don't even know what that means.

>> Um let's say, hey, let's move along to. paper dolls or do you want to take a. break now? >> Let's take a break and I'm going to look. up and see how much those uh uh Xavier. Roberts dolls are worth of mine and I'll. see if I can list them on eBay and I'll. be right back. >> [bell]. [bell].

[music]. [bell]. [music]. [bell]. >> Okay, we promised talk about uh paper. dolls and what kind of Grinch. Scrooes would we be if we just didn't. deliver on that? >> That's right. [laughter]. So, uh, yeah, paper dolls were this. trend from like the the apex was from. 1890 to 1920, but I mean you could find.

them pretty easily into the 1970s and. they're still around today in different. forms, but um, they were like, think. about this. What trend can you think of, Chuck, >> that lasted for 30 years? This is a huge. huge trend. >> Grunge. >> No, Grunge I will say was 10 years tops. >> Uh Pet Rocks. >> Pet Rocks is maybe maybe two. >> Um.

that's it. I got nothing else. >> Okay, that's what I'm saying. That's how. massive a trend paper dolls were from. the late 19th century to the early 20th. >> Hot pants. >> Okay, there you go. Daisy Dukes. They've. been huge since the 70s, definitely. >> So, a paper doll is a doll that you cut. out. Uh, and the fun thing about paper. dolls was, and I guess is if you're. still into them, is uh they would come. with different outfits and things and. you would cut out the different outfits.

and put them over the doll. And that was. the fun of it is you could change the. clothes, but it wasn't real clothes cuz. it was just sort of free cuz it came in. the magazine or newspaper or whatever. But that was the only fun of it. Don't. even try to have any other fun. Just put. the outfits on and sit there. >> Yeah, that's kind of it. >> But luckily, there was a bunch of new. outfits and they were always coming. because this whole thing was basically a. way to get people to go buy your. newspaper or your magazine or in some. cases buy your product like Pillsbury.

products. you would get a set of these. um collectible paper dolls in new. outfits and for 30 years people would go. buy Pillsbury everything because they. had the best. paper dolls. >> Yeah. This still continues. I just. realized that at one point um my friend. Meredith who worked uh in the fashion. industry got Ruby for Christmas a little. it's like a little fashion kit. >> and it's kind of like paper dolls except. they're already. >> it's magnetized and they're pre-cut. But. the whole idea is that you can put.

together all these different outfits and. like kind of learn about fashion. So. it's not that different than paper. dolls. >> No, this is plastic. >> Yeah. And she she enjoyed that for a. while. >> Oh, good. Who was that that gave her. that present? >> My friend uh Meredith or auntie. Meredith. She she and Ruby are big big. buds. >> Meredith? >> Yeah, I think you've met Meredith, maybe. >> All right. >> Yeah, you have at at New York Live. Shows. >> Okay. Well, great pick, Meredith. >> Yeah. Um, so I say we move on to famous.

dolls of the 20th century. Chuck, this. is the part I've been waiting for. >> This is the reason we did this episode. >> You got to start and we we're not going. to spend too much time on QP doll except. to mention that the QP doll was kind of. the first big doll of the 20th century. in 1912, right? >> Yeah. And the great mayo, too, by the. way. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I tried the Q mayo. because of you. >> What did you think? >> It was great. It's not going to replace. Dukes for me, but uh very good mayo. >> It shouldn't. You can love both. >> Yeah, I do.

>> Um I think Qie was huge. So huge that um. it took Mickey Mouse to topple them. Him, her it. I think. >> Mickey Mouse is an it. >> No, no, no. Q. >> That's They're both its. >> Oh, okay. So, yeah. Well, Mickey Mouse. is an a mouse. >> Yeah, but he's it. He's living in that. gutter with the clown. >> Okay. >> In the sewer gutter. So along after. that, I think Cupid Doll was I mean I I. I know Steamboat Willie came out in the. 20s. I'm not sure when it was actually.

Mickey Mouse, right? So Cupid Doll was. on top for a while, but even if Mickey. Mouse hadn't come along, Raggedy would. have eventually come and pulled little. Cy Doll by her little couple hairs on. the top of her head down from the top. spot and take took it over. >> That's right. Raggedanne and her little. brother Raggedy Andy were big hits. Uh I. had Raggedanne and Andy when I was. little. Uh it was a children's book from. cartoonist Johnny uh Gruell. He made it.

for his daughter. It's very sweet. >> And Dolls came out a couple years later. in 1920, but they had movie appearances. They had a TV show. They had a Broadway. musical in the 80s. >> What was it about? >> I don't really know. Raggedy Ann, I. guess. >> Okay. It was called some It was called. It might have been called Raggedy and. Ragd Doll or something ragd doll. I. didn't look too much into it. I don't. think it ran too long. >> Aerosmith did the score. >> I'm pretty sure they did the book, too. >> So, uh, one other thing about um,

Raggedyan, you know, Annabelle from the. Conjuring series. >> Yeah, I never saw that, but I know what. you're talking about. >> You never saw The Conjuring? >> Oh. >> Oh, I You're gonna like it, dude. It's. one of those very few modern like good. ghost movies. It is good. Like like um. goose pimple stuff. Good. >> I'm going to conjure up some goose. pimples for myself then. >> I think and The Conjuring 2 was okay, but the first one's very good. I'll be.

very surprised if you don't like it. >> Well, I'll check it out. Most of my doll. scary movies have been Child's Play and. uh Megan. >> Okay. Child's Play's coming up. Don't worry. about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Megan was pretty good, too. >> Yeah. Megan was fun. It wasn't so scary. >> No, it's no conjuring for sure. >> Yeah. >> So, um, now we come to Betsy Wetsy. Just. wait for your Teddy Kathy. Let's talk. about Betsy Wetsy first. >> Yeah. Betsy Wetsy was uh, well, let's.

just say this. Betsy Wetsy could drink. >> Betsy Wetsy. >> could drink you under the table. >> Could pee pee herself. >> Mhm. >> Betsy Wetsy could cry uh, I was about to. say real human tears, but no. could cry. fake tears. >> Yeah. >> Um, this was from a company called Ideal. in 1937 and Ideal got sued a few times. because uh they had other dolls out. there that could cry and that could pee. themselves and drink, but apparently. Ideal was like, "But can they do all of. that?". >> Right. And yeah, Betsy Wesley was a huge.

smash hit. Um, I think she was most. popular in the 50s. Uh, but they you. could find her on the shelves through. the 80s. Um, and you would give her a. little bottle. She had a tube running. through her. So, the bottle of whatever, hopefully water if you were a parent and. not actual milk. >> would go through her little tube and. come out the other end and then you. would get to change her diaper or maybe. give her a bath or something like that. and. >> start all over again. >> That's right. uh not to be undone. In.

the early 90s, Magic Potty Baby came out. >> and I think I remember this actually. because. >> this was a uh it didn't PP itself, but. there was a toilet that came with it. >> and it was all about toilet training of. course, but the toilet would fill up. with this, you know, fake yellow liquid. It wasn't fake. It was a real yellow. liquid, >> I guess. Fake urine. >> Uh I hope it was fake urine. I never. tasted it. And then the doll would sit. on it and then you would flush it and it. would disappear back into its its.

temporary holding tank. >> Yeah. And you're like, "Oh, that sounds. kind of weird." Go watch the ad for. Magic Potty Baby. And for some reason, it's it's just it's it's even more. bizarre when you see it in person. >> Yeah, agreed. >> Um, okay, Chuck, I think now it's time. for Cheddy Kathy, which I didn't realize. was a followup a year after Barbie came. out. And this is a Ruth Handler joint, too. >> That's right. Uh, this was a Mattel. product along with Barbie. And you know,

Chatty Kathy was chatty and talked. So, you would pull a string and there were, I think, 11 initial phrases. I hurt. myself. Please brush my hair. >> That was a great Kathy. >> That was it. That was Chatty Kathy. Um, Cheddy Kathy, get this, was not the. first doll to talk. As far back as um Thomas Edison and I. think 1890, >> he um tried his hand at one and he had. uh different dolls that said a few.

different things, >> but we turned up a clip of the doll that. um read um I guess the Lord's Prayer. >> Mhm. And I Chuck, we have to share it. because I haven't laughed out loud in a. really long time. >> Yeah, we don't play clips a lot. Uh, so. I think we're in probably legally okay. to play this clip. So Jerry, can you run. that? >> I may be down to sleep. I praise the.

Lord my to keep. If I should die before. thywake, I praise the Lord. My soul is. perfect. Amen. >> So, >> wow. [laughter]. >> Like imagine that coming out of a doll. you're holding or and it's dark like. there's no light in your room because. it's nighttime and your doll starts. saying that. >> Yeah. Or imagine is you're just in a. dark room and hear that and you turn on. your Edison bulb and that's the only.

thing in there, >> right? It's just sitting in the rocking. chair looking at you, rocking slightly. back and forth. Or even worse, it's. sitting in the wicker wheelchair in the. corner of your room for some reason, staring at you. >> Your biggest fear. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah, pretty good stuff. >> I agree. Um so Chatty Kathy, back to. her. Um she was actually an inspiration. for a very famous Twilight Zone episode, Living Doll. Do you remember that one? >> I don't remember that, but I I did watch. the clip.

>> It's good. So, uh, this was Talkie Tina, and this is like three years after, um, Chhatty Kathy came out. Very clearly. Chhatty Kathy. >> Yeah. >> Um, and she has this kind of, um, protective. feeling around her kid and doesn't like. the kid's parents. And at one point, they pull the doll's cord and she says, "My name is Talkie Tina, and I'm. beginning to hate you." [laughter]. It's It's a really good Twilight Zone. episode, which I can't really think of a. bad Twilight Zone episode, but this one.

is is particularly good. >> Yeah, it was good. >> Um, I found two other things about or. one other thing I guess about Chhatty. Kathy. Did you see the the voice thing I. sent? >> I did not. >> So, June Faraday, who was the voice of. Rocket J Squirrel on Rocky and. Bullwinkle and Cindy Cindy Luhoo. >> on the Grinch Christmas special, she was. the first voice of Chatty Kathy. >> All right. And then they re-released. Chatty Kathy in 1970 and the voice was. Moren McCormack who played Marsha on the.

Brady Bunch. >> Oh, Marsha. Marsha. Marsha. >> Trivia Masters. If you're looking for a. new question. >> Yeah. >> Merry Christmas. >> Yeah. That no one will know. >> unless they listen to stuff you should. know. >> Yes, that's right. >> Yeah. Uh we can should talk about Polly. Pocket for a minute because that was uh. a miniature doll. It was a British. inventor named Chris Wigs who built a. mini dollhouse for his daughter out of a. a makeup compact. >> in the early 80s. And Mattel was like, "This thing's great." And they licensed.

uh Polly Pocket as a doll in the early. '9s. And all of a sudden, many toys were. a big craze. And we mentioned this. because you may see a movie coming uh to. a theater screen near you because Barbie. was such a big hit. Obviously. >> Mhm. >> Uh Bri Witherspoon and her production. company has optioned this away. I don't. know about away from Lena Dunham, but. Lena Dunham was originally attached a. few years ago and is no longer attached. And so they're trying to make Polly. Pocket into a movie uh starring Lily. Collins, Phil Collins daughter.

>> Yeah. Um what about American Girl dolls? Did you know about the origin of them? They came from an elementary school. teacher in Wisconsin named Pleasant. Roland, which is a great name. That's. Jerry's nickname. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, it is. >> Jerry Pleasant Roland. >> Yeah. But Pleasant Roland wanted to. teach kids about history, I guess, specifically girls. Um, and she started. releasing them in 1986, these American. Girl dolls. And at first they were just. mail order. And they were expensive,

too. 65 bucks in 1986, which is like. $100,000 today, I I'm guessing. >> Um, but they were a big seller right off. the bat. And eventually you could find. them in stores too. >> Yeah. Like their own stores. Uh you. know, their flagship stores. And I just. encourage anyone. >> uh that has dollophobia, which we'll get. to in a minute, to dare walk by or. through an American Girl doll store. >> That is quite a dare. >> Yeah. That's uh that's not a dare. actually because that's not funny if you.

have a real fear like that. >> I was looking that up. We'll talk about. it in a second, but it is some real deal. stuff. It does not sound pleasant. >> Yeah. Uh, and you know, American Girl. dolls look sort of real, but that ain't. nothing like what's coming out of FAO. Schwarz and companies like Reborn and. companies like Ashton Drake because they. are making. >> these realistic baby dolls. Uh, we. finally on this last trip to New York on. fall break, I'd always wanted to go to. FAO Schwarz in New York City. >> and we did. We we took a trip through.

FAO Schwarz and I I recommend it. I. mean, it's very very busy, so don't go. in there if you have any sort of uh fear. of crowds. >> Mhm. >> Cuz that is one of the most packed. places I've ever been in. Um, but. eventually we wandered over to where. they had their baby like real baby doll. display and uh I held one of these. things, man, and it is very surreal and. weird because it seems like a real baby. >> Yeah. Like down to like the the little. veins in their temples, the little. capillaries.

>> and the smell. Did Did. >> creepy, man. >> Did the one you hold smell of like. talcum or anything? >> Yeah, they smell and look like babies. like full stop. >> Yeah. And they even have weight to them, too. Like heft. So, they're so realistic. that these things are This is what is. often used as like a movie prop for like. a long shot or something like that. Not. a closeup. >> For a close-up if you're Bradley Cooper. in a Clint Eastwood movie. >> Oh, really? Which one? >> The American Sniper. This very famous. scene where he's clearly holding a fake. baby.

>> I [laughter] didn't know that. I didn't. >> Check it check it out on YouTube. It's. hysterical. >> Okay. But but people collect these. things. I mean, they are essentially. like works of art. They're usually made. individually. Um they're not mass-. prodduced. Uh some of them I've seen um. referred to as m museum quality pieces. >> So, they can run hundreds of dollars, probably more than that for some of. them. But there's other things that. people do with them, too. There's role. playinging, like just for fun, treating. them as if they're alive. Mhm. >> Because again, they look a lot like a.

live baby or infant. >> Um, some people use them to fill an. emotional void, >> right? >> Um, and then apparently they're also. useful for Alzheimer's patient patients. and dementia patients. >> And when I first saw this, I was like, that sounds pretty mean actually. Uh, and they they don't tell the the patient. that this is a real baby. They're like, here, hold this doll. But the doll is so. lifelike that it can trigger memories. and um pleasant emotions in Alzheimer's.

patients who now remember raising their. own kids or taking care of their own. kids. And then also just the feel of. holding a baby can have all sorts of. positive benefits for people with. Alzheimer's and dementia too. >> Yeah, I looked that up. I mean, it's. sort of pluses and minuses. It can. definitely help reduce dementia caused. agitation and stuff like that. um all in. a non-farm pharmacological way, which. can be good. But um there are critics. that say like. >> you got to be real careful how you do. this because it can also reduce dignity.

and give the impression like a. reinforced like viewing people with. dementia like they're children. Um so. you just got to. >> do it the right way is what I've read. >> Yeah, there's I'm sure there's a myriad. wrong ways to do it, too. >> Sure. So, um, that was a great great. call out, Chuck. >> Yeah. >> Do you remember my buddy? >> My buddy and me. >> My buddy. >> Mhm. Keep going. >> My buddy. My buddy. My buddy and me.

Something like that. >> That was close. Close enough. >> That was the uh what do you call that. when you got a song? >> An earworm. Earworm. >> No, no, no. The jingle. Yeah, that was. the jingle. Everyone screaming jingle. Uh, it was very infectious. to still. remember it for the most part all these. years later. Uh that was the inspiration. for Chucky from Child's Play, but that. was a doll that came out in 1985 that. was um kind of during the Cabbage Patch. Kid craze. They were like, "Hey, what. about a doll that's made specifically.

for boys, >> right?". >> And listen to this. Hasbro senior vice. president of marketing, Steven Schwarz, in 1995 told the Boston Globe this, "My. buddy is positioned as macho." Like, it's soft macho, but still macho. Like. we show them climbing trees, riding. their bikes. We didn't position it like. a girl doll, like soft and sweet. It's. macho, but soft macho, >> right? [laughter]. He was wearing all these medallions with. his chest hair poking through. >> Yeah. >> So, that was uh thanks to our friends at. Mental Floss who turned up that quote,

which is priceless. >> Yeah, I should have read it in a Boston. accent, but oh well. >> No, I think you you got it. It was. great. >> I missed an opportunity. >> That was Philly, right? >> Uh well, that was for the Boston Globe, but I don't know. Oh, you mean my. accent? >> Mhm. >> No, no, no, no. That Philly accent's. much different. >> Oh, okay. Um, yeah. You didn't say Yin. >> Yeah. And he would go out after and have. a Hogy. >> So, like you said, he was the role for. or the model for Chucky from Child's. Play. >> That's what they say. They didn't never.

confirm that. >> It's pretty That's pretty close. Like. Talkina, Chucky. >> Yeah, >> these things are close enough to just. draw some assumptions here. >> Yeah, agreed. So, we talked about fear. of dolls, and I'm glad you already kind. of touched on the fact that this is. quite serious. This is a genuine phobia. I know to people who don't have it, it. can sound like, well, fear of dolls, it. almost sounds like something you can. make a movie out of. If you have a fear. of dolls, a pedophobia, um, like you can get a full-blown panic. attack. You may avoid places where you.

think there may be dolls. It's not just. dolls. It can be mannequins, too. Um. there's all sorts of reasons that you. can have petty pedophobia. Um but one of. the the causes behind it or possible. causes behind it is having like a. traumatic experience with a doll or say. like with a ventriloquist dummy or. something like that. Yeah. >> It just didn't land correctly and now. you're traumatized for the rest of your. life. >> um without serious counseling uh because.

you have this fear of dolls. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, you used. to publish uh when we were doing like uh. image lists on the old housetopworks.com. days, your list of uh scary looking. toys. >> That thing is just gone, [laughter]. >> isn't it? Not on the web anymore. >> No. >> Oh, that's probably good. Uh, but a lot. of these things are creepy looking and a. lot of them are dolls. Um, and you know, they didn't mean to make them creepy. looking. Uh, I think this just, you. know, some decision is made like like.

Little Miss Noame in 1965, uh, Margaret. Keane's Big Eyes was a big deal. So, we're like, why don't we make a doll. with those big giant eyes? And they did. And it's terrifying. >> She is terrifying again unintentionally. I think also part of it she has like. like shadow under her eyes. She's. supposed to be kind of gaunt because. she's a panhandling child who wears a. burlap sack and has a tear running down. her cheek. and unintentionally terrible. >> little miss no name.

>> Yes, >> it's awful. >> It is awful. Um, but this was like a. serious like release of a doll in 1965. So, um, yeah, there's there's and. there's plenty you can come up with. I. would I would suggest just go looking up. terrifying dolls. Knockoff dolls or. knockoff toys is always a little fun. rabbit hole to go down. But they're not. inherently creepy is the thing. And the. reason we know that is because there's. kids out there who will play with what. older people will consider a creepy.

doll, but it the kid doesn't think of it. that way. So if you ever see a kid. legitimately playing with a creepy doll, do not go up to that kid and be like, "That doll is really creepy because. that's how humans start to think of. things as creepy. And if they don't. think of their doll as creepy," it is. not your place to tell that kid that. doll is creepy. >> Yeah, for sure. There's a um Instagram. account of a mom um who has been. documenting her daughter Brier with her. doll Creepy Chloe. And Creepy Chloe. definitely lives up to her name, but.

Brier plays with her like she is any. other doll. It's very cute. >> Yeah. Just resist the urge, parents. >> Yes. And stifle. >> If you want to know if you want to know. um Yeah. I can't you see Brier like. growing up and sitting in her dorm. smoking pot one day and being like now I. understand why my mom always threw her. hand over her mouth and walked out of. the room when I was playing with creepy. Chloe. >> or why didn't she ever tell me it might. be the other [laughter]. >> right. >> way of thinking about it. Yeah.

>> So, um just real quick, the thing that. usually explains why we're creeped out. by dolls is the uncanny valley. We won't. get into that because it's pretty deep, but we did do an episode on the uncanny. valley you can go find. >> It's a good one. >> Yeah. Uh, you can find it on stuffyou. should know.com by the way. >> That's right. >> You got anything else on dolls or. Christmas or anything like that, buddy? >> Nothing. >> Well, I'm glad we did this one. Thank. you for coming in from home this morning. on Christmas morning to do this. >> That's right. All my gifts are still.

waiting. [music] I told them just not. touch them. >> Okay. >> Even the one that's ticking and I'll be. right back. >> Well, hopefully your orange rolls aren't. cold or anything like that. So, [music]. let's let's go home. Let's go to our. homes. Not our shared home. >> Yeah, >> that's something else. >> Yeah, that's for New Year's. >> And uh we'll wish everybody a merry. Christmas, huh? >> Yeah. I hope everyone has a great. holiday and I hope you're [music] with. ones you love. And uh if you're spending. uh Christmas in a less than ideal way, we are always [music] thinking about you. for real.

>> Very nice, Chuck. Uh and I don't think. we'll do listener mail, huh? >> Nah, nuts to that, as you say. >> Yeah. Well, if you want to say merry. [music] Christmas or happy new year or. happy holidays or anything, hi, whatever, you can send it via email to. stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. [bell and music]. [music]. [bell].

>> [music]. [bell]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. [music] For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite [music] shows.