Doin’ Science in the National Radio Quiet Zone | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, [music] and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. And we're being really quiet. here on Stuff You Should Know because. we're doing an episode on the [music]. National Radio Quiet Zone. We're not a. radio show. We're a podcast, but we feel. in solidarity that we should be quiet,

too. >> That's right. Uh, and we're not talking. about Palm Springs with their oppressive. ban on outdoor music. >> Oh, I hadn't heard about that. >> Yeah. You can't play music outside like. by your pool. >> Huh. At all? >> Supposedly at all. >> Well, I guess it probably just depends. on your neighbor. >> M I think they're pretty strict about. it. I mean, I've never been to Palm. Springs and stayed there. We should ask. our friend who lives there. >> Yeah. >> Uh because maybe full-time residents. have a little more leeway, but you know, they do it because people they don't.

want people just going and renting. houses and just blowing out the. neighborhood every weekend. >> No, this isn't Fire Island, guys. >> Right. [laughter]. >> No, we're not talking about Palm. Springs, though, I guess, is the upshot. of that, right? >> No, we're talking about the opposite of. Palm Springs, which is Appalachia, >> West Virginia. >> Yeah. >> Is kind of the opposite of Palm Springs, if there is such a thing. I think even. if you folded uh the United States map. in half, they would be pretty close to. one another. They would smear one. another. >> Someone's gonna do that.

>> Yeah. >> They're going to fold the map up and. send us a correction. >> Yeah. They'll be like, "Josh's way off.". >> Well, you know where they might fold a. map up is in the National Radio Quiet. Zone because they still use those. things. >> It's a great place to fold a map. Um. because Yeah, like you said, that's what. you need to get around in a lot of. cases. And let's just cut to the chase. here, Chuck. The National Radio Quiet Zone does not. mean you can't play your music like. that. They're saying that this is an. area where radio emissions of any kind.

are heavily regulated, frowned upon, you. might even say. And the whole reason. they're doing this is to protect uh the. delicate telescopes, radio telescopes. used in radio astronomy at a specific. place called Greenbank, West Virginia. They've established a whole zone around. it that's meant to block out or keep out. radio transmissions so that the the. astronomers can go about their business. happily. >> That's right. Uh and to be clear, when.

you say radio transmissions, you're not. talking about Casey Kasem's American Top. 40, >> right? >> Because we don't have a time machine and. we're not going to exume Casey Kasem. >> They still play those like uh old ones. on on some radio stations on Saturday or. Sunday. It's a great way to pass some. time if you're driving. >> I've stumbled upon those and it is a. nice time capsule for sure. But you're. talking about radio waves. >> and we're going to explain kind of about. what radio astronomy is and all that. In. fact, we can go ahead and do that right. now. Uh because in 1932, there was an.

engineer at Bell Labs named Carl Jansky. >> Mhm. >> Who noticed some static interfering with. some communications going across the. pond as they say. got together with an. astronomer over coffee and they said, "You know what? I don't think this is. interference coming from here on Earth. I think it's coming from out in the. Milky Way galaxy." And this was a big. deal. In 1932, they were like, "There. are literal celestial bodies emitting. radio waves out there,

>> and we need to start studying these and. measuring these, and we're going to call. it radio astronomy.". >> Yeah. All of a sudden, we didn't just. have visible telescopes anymore. We had. radio telescopes which are very similar. I mean they both are just measuring. different parts of the electromagnetic. spectrum. That's basically it. Um but. the the really amazing thing about what. some of these radio telescopes can do um. just to give you an idea of how. sensitive they are, [clears throat]. >> they measure um the incoming radio waves.

that are so weak they measure them in. microjanskis. >> such as what. >> a micro jansky [laughter]. point. >> Is it named after Carl? >> It is named I hope so because that would. be [laughter] one heck of a coincidence. Yeah. Um, it's point it's 0. 320. >> Wow. >> This is watts, by the way. So, this the. electrical energy is so weak. It's 320.

zeros of a single watt. Right. And I've. seen it compared to a snowflake hitting. the ground carries a lot more energy. than that. So that's how faint some of. these radio signals are and that's how. sensitive these enormous radio. telescopes are, which is why the idea of. having a quiet zone around a telescope. is so vital because it there's so much. noise in modern life. It's just gotten. worse and worse and worse. You can find.

um radio interference in everything from. um bulldozers to power lines, Wi-Fi. routers, Christmas lights, smart plugs. in cars produce a lot of radio. interference. It's everywhere. Which. means then that if you want to create a. quiet zone, you have to somehow regulate. all this stuff to kind of keep it away. from the radio telescopes, which has. proven difficult over the years for the. national radio quiet zone. >> You mentioned the less than a watt. Do.

they have names? I know there's like. megawatts and kilowatts and all that. stuff, gigawatts. >> Uh, do they have names for things less. than a watt. >> or is. >> a micro jansky? Is a a Jansky is like. point. 26 zeros of one single watt. >> Oh, well, I just meant a sort of a. regular interval like a something watt, like a reggi watt. >> Oh, I'm sure there's like a millowatt. I. know there is. I've heard that that word. before. I know I was at a mixer of some. sort and someone used that word. Okay, I. got you. You missed my joke.

>> Oh, well, I I need to hear I got to I'm. gonna I'm gonna let you hear it in uh QA. when you listen to it. >> So great. I have a future humiliation. ahead of me. >> No, no, no, no. It was very quick and it. was a pretty lame setup by me because it. was all just for that dumb joke. So, you. have an Easter egg to look forward to. >> I can't wait to hear it. >> Uh something that you've said though a. few times that we want to again just. sort of hammer home. You've said like a. lot of noise and you might hear like. silence and things like that. Again, it. has nothing to do with sound. We're just.

talking about uh radio waves which are, you know, they cast a a kind of light. like a radio light, but it's not. something that the human eye can see. So. again, not actual sound is what we're. talking about. >> No, nor actual visible light, radio. light. Right. So, like I was saying, it's like radio light pollution is. absolutely everywhere. Um, and yet. they're trying to keep it as quiet as. possible in the national radio quiet.

zone. It used to be a lot easier when um. when they started this whole thing. Uh, you said Carl Jansky made that massive. monumental discovery in 1932. Um by 1954 the National Science. Foundation uh started exploring like how. to just take radio astronomy to the next. level which is I guess you would say the. second level because it was still so. new. They created the advisory panel on. radio astronomy and um part of what they. were discussing was how to how to create.

a quiet zone and where you would make. one of those things. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I can't imagine if. they had were tasked with this today, it'd probably be nearly impossible. They'd have to use imminent imminent. domain just to kick people out. Uh but. 1954, like you said, it was a little bit. easier. So for a couple of years, they. got together over coffee about where. they could put this thing. Uh it needed. minimal radio noise, obviously, like we. talked about, probably a pretty limited. population. >> Uh by the way, thanks for Anna for this.

one. She did a great job on this. >> Yeah, she really did. uh surrounded by. mountains because mountains provide a. natural barrier for those radio signals. uh and probably not near a city uh but. not too far from Washington DC where. things would likely be headquartered. Uh. so they finally looked around. They. settled on the Appalachin Mountains. between Virginia and West Virginia. Uh. that is part one of solving the problem. Part two was getting funding. Uh luckily. President Eisenhower was kind of into.

this. So, in 1956, uh, he asked Congress back when that was. a thing for $7 million to fund a radio. astronomy center, and Congress said, "Yeah, let's do it.". >> Yeah. Everybody was really jazzed about. this new radio astronomy stuff, right? Um, West Virginia was very flattered, and they, the state legislature passed. the West Virginia radio astronomy zone. So, the first thing that was created was. the National Radio Quiet Zone, and that.

was actually created before the National. Radio Quiet Zone. >> Yeah. They kind of laid the groundwork, I feel like. >> Yeah. They laid a 10mi diameter. groundwork around wherever this. telescope was going to be built, they. said, "Wherever you put it, there's. going to be 10 miles around it where you. can't use radio stuff." Right. >> Yeah. >> Um and then the FCC said, "We're going. to do one better. We're going to put. another blanket layer, much larger layer. called the National Radio Quiet Zone on.

top of the West Virginia radio astronomy. zone to kind of make this huge buffer, right? To to make it even harder for. radio signals to mess with the radio. telescopes in the West Virginia radio. astronomy zone. >> That's right. So that uh smaller NRQZ, the National Radio Quiet Zone, had from. the jump had some looser restrictions uh. than the even much smaller WVAZ, >> right? >> Uh it covered a much larger area about.

13,000 square miles. But think of it. this way, it's it's it's really a a. rectangle, the NRQZ, >> 13,000 square miles across across. Virginia and West Virginia. and a little. bit of Maryland, the southernmost tip on. that western panhandle, >> just the tip. It's very mountainous. Um, it's got parts of the Alagany, parts of. the Blue Ridge Mountains, uh, but mainly. the Appalachin Mountains. And within. that 13,000 square mile rectangle, you've got that, uh, West Virginia, uh,

the WV RAZ. >> Mhm. >> Um, in the center of that, you've got a. two-mile zone that surrounds Greenbank, West Virginia. And every time you go. into a smaller circle within that. rectangle, it gets more and more. restrictive as for what kind of radio. noise that you can have because in the. middle of that zone, you've got the. Greenbank Observatory and they have even. more restrictions right there in the. center. >> Yeah. At the Greenbank Observatory, you.

can't even think about using any kind of. radiocreating device because that would. create radio waves. >> If you think about Wi-Fi there, then. you're fired. >> Yeah. Fired. If you're lucky, I mean, they'll really work you over there. They've got a gang of goons that enforce. this with an iron fist. >> That's right. >> So, we talked about how all of this um. the quiet zone itself was established. Simultaneously, they're working on. creating the actual observatory. Yeah. That's going to be in the middle of this. quiet zone. And initially it was called.

the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. in that town of Greenbank which is in. the center of the West Virginia radio uh. astronomy zone that was uh established. in 1956. And they started building. telescopes one bigger than the other. They started with the Tattle 85 ft. >> Not bad. >> And then the 300 ft telescope and the. 140 foot telescope which are very boring. names. >> Yeah. But originally, as you might. imagine, everybody associated with the.

National Radio Astronomy Observatory uh. lived in this ultra quiet zone around. the observatory. And they ran into some. early problems where the employees were. like, "We we can't live here. Sorry.". >> Right. >> Yeah. I mean, they said, you know, the. the medical care and access to great. healthcare isn't awesome. Uh the schools. here aren't great for my kids. And so. they relocated the admin headquarters to. the University of Virginia in. Charlottesville. Um the researchers.

remained there on site. Uh in ' 88 and I. think that was in 1965 when they you. know built most of this stuff those big. tall towers. In ' 88 the 300 ft. telescope collapsed. The 140 foot said. but then it was replaced by the Robert. C. Bird Greenbank telescope in 2001. which still stands today. And not only. stands, but it's like it is the largest. fully steerable radio telescope in the. world with, get this, a 2.3 acre dish.

and almost 500 ft. 485 ft, which is. 2,116 Big Macs. >> Is it? >> That's all for you, my friend. >> Thank you, buddy. Wow, that was a. delightful little line yap. >> What? A what? >> A l yap. We've talked about this before. >> Uh, remind me. A lang yap is just like a. little something extra. >> Okay. >> And I find it incredibly obnoxious to. use. >> Well, I think it's great and it sure. beats the heck out of cherry on top.

>> All right. Let's come up with something. else. >> The lany. >> Okay, there you go. There's one other. thing that the um the Greenbank. telescope, the one that's currently in. use, can boast. You ready for this? >> Yes. >> It has the world's largest ball bearing. Oh wow. >> The ball bearing inside of this thing. that the this massive telescope steers. on is 17 and 12 feet in diameter. >> Wow. >> Which means it's as big around as a male.

adult giraffe is tall. >> That's the best I could come up with. [laughter]. I know it's it's awful. It's clumsy, but. I could not come up with anything else. >> Hey, uh Alexa, what's 17t tall? I asked um duck.go instead. Oh, >> okay. And I'm sorry for everyone whose. Alexa I just triggered. Alexa, Alexa. [laughter]. >> Alexa, play One Direction.

[laughter]. >> Oh boy, that's good. >> Uh you want to take a break while. everybody's trying to turn off One. Direction? [laughter]. >> Yeah, let's take a break. We'll be right. back. >> [music]. [music]. >> And then you came along and it was like,

[music]. >> uh, yeah. Well, we were work pals. All. right. So, within that 13,000. square mile rectangle, the National. Radio Quiet Zone, um you cannot, and. this is where the restrictions begin, and we're going to get more granular, uh. you can't have any fixed or permanent. transmitters installed unless you get. approval uh from the NRQZ and the FCC.

Uh what's the NIA? >> The National Telecommunications and. Information Agency. very obscure, but. they supposedly are replacing FEMA as. the new uh world orders jack boot. troops. >> Okay, good to know. Uh so you can't. build any big permanent things there. So. that means just within that big 13,000. square mile rectangle, >> uh just somebody living there doesn't. have to worry too much. That means that. no company can come in and build.

something really big, >> right? That's really what we're looking. at here. If you're in the actual 13,000. square mile thing, you don't have to. really worry about a cell phone. >> The thing is that also means since. there's no cell phone towers that are. allowed there, >> yeah, >> your cell phone's going to be useless in. a lot of places. Um I think that's fair. enough to expect anyway because. Pocahontas County, which is where a lot. of the um the main part, which is.

definitely where Greenbank is. >> Yeah. Um it I think threearters of it is. national and state protected wilderness. So you're not going to expect to get a. cell phone signal there anyway. And if. you're passing through this area, you're. probably going to the quiet zone on. purpose. So you can expect this. It's. really just an issue if you actually. live or work in this area or you're a. company trying to set up new. infrastructure. That's really who's. being affected by this. >> Yeah, for sure. Like if you read and I.

had heard of this before at some point. like I saw some news report or read an. article that portray it as like you know. it's like going back in time basically. and we'll get to the ways it is sort of. like that but it's not entirely like. that. They've never entirely banned any. kind of radio transmission. It's just. really regulated. Like they have certain. radio broadcasts because they have to. have those emergency transmissions that. we talked about in communications and. the AM radio uh episode. Those have. always been there. Uh you can have TV.

Um it is restricted but they permit like. cable TV uh and even satellite TV which. kind of surprises me. >> Um and Wi-Fi was not available for a. long long time until I I think just last. year. Uh but they could have wired. internet with the Ethernet cable. >> Right. If it was wired, no problem. But. the Wi-Fi was going to produce a lot of. problems because your I mean that's a. your router is a radio transmitter. So, yeah. >> Uh, apparently a lot of people, as we'll. see, are are like, "Well, whatever. I'm.

still going to have Wi-Fi." Including, um, Greenbank Observatory employees who. live there. >> Mhm. >> Um, but it's still a it's a big problem. because if you live in that that region, it still affects you in all sorts of. ways. Like, uh, Anna gives the example. of if your car breaks down, you don't. just call somebody on the cell phone and. be like, I need a tow. >> Sure. You're walking unless you're. somebody friendly drives by who you know. and trust, right? And probably had.

dinner at their house and will give you. a ride. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To somewhere. People use pay phones as. we'll see. Um it you can definitely feel. disconnected just from not having cell. service, let alone from Wi-Fi. But that. said, I think we'll talk a little more. about it later, but the people who work. for Greenbank Observatory try to work. with the community because although. technically it's law that they can. regulate this and punish people who. violate these rules, they don't. They.

are trying to keep a happy relationship. with the community and figure out. compromises that work for everybody. That's kind that's what they try to do. I think if you talk to some of the. people who live or around there or. elected officials around there um they. they might not necessarily agree with. you, but that seems to be at least the. mission of the Greenbank Observatory. >> Yeah. And and again, that's specifically. the Green Bank, which is the most. restrictive area where you're not going. to have any cell service. Uh and like I. said, until very recently, no Wi-Fi at.

all there. Um like no Bluetooth devices, no RC cars and trucks for the kids, man. uh and playful adults. Uh no microwaves. Um but like you said, I think you hinted. at it. A lot of people or some people. cuz there's not a lot of people there. period, but some people move there for. that reason. They want a simpler. lifestyle. They want less technology. Uh. and we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, kind of some of the people. that attracts because it can get very. interesting. >> Um other people can get annoyed. Um,

most people there probably just, you. know, that's where they've always lived. and so that's just the deal. Uh, it's a. way of life. Uh, I think in 2016 there. was an Italian graduate student uh, named Jafo Khalini who traveled there to. study like the people and were like, you. know, what's it like for the for the. people that live there? And he found and. this is a very small scale study. it. wasn't like the most robust scientific. thing, >> but I think just walking around and. studying and talking to people, they. found that people seem to have lower.

anxiety there. Um, but it's different. You know, we they use maps, they use. payoneses still. I just the idea of not having. access to like social media and. >> yeah, >> a lot of just a lot of like modern life. or having a cell phone like being able. to be contacted all the time. I can't I. can't help but think that yes, you as a. group would have less anxiety on the. whole,

>> especially teens. I think it was. Australia, didn't they just pass a law. saying you couldn't be on social media. until you were a certain age? >> 16. I think 16. Hats off to you guys. because that's how it should be. Um, >> teens there do have things like iPhones. Uh, they can't use them for text or. call. So, there was one teen that said. it's basically a clock and a calculator. So, I imagine I imagine calculator. watches are very much [clears throat] in. style still. >> Yeah, those Casio ones. >> Yeah, >> those are awesome.

Um the thing is is this is all I mean as. of last year. I think yeah meaning 2025 but also some. changes really started to take place I. think in the summer of 2024 like certain. kinds of Wi-Fi is now allowed um and. things are now changing I mean once you. add widespread internet access like the. world's going to change or this area is. going to change. >> overnight basically. Yeah, for the. better. >> Imagine imagine going right. Imagine.

going from 1997 to 2025. in this in the span of like a day after. installing a Wi-Fi router in your house. >> Well, I mean that's one thing Anna. mentions sort of at the end of her. research was like there was a while. there where the Gulf was really big like. when. >> you know for the longest time it was. like oh things aren't that much. different. >> Sure. But then once the internet came. along and then they weren't getting. things like Wi-Fi and and Bluetooth, like the Gulf got pretty wide there for.

a while. Um, >> but like we said, it attracts a lot of. interesting folks. Um, there are. certainly some some conspiracy theorists. that go there on purpose. Uh, the. National Alliance headquarters for the. neo-Nazis has been in Poconus County for. a long time. >> Mhm. >> Obviously, you're going to get some. hippies, uh, some communes. There was a. a quasi cult perhaps called Zindic Farm. that was there for a little while. Um. they kind of moved all over. I looked. into them all over the United States but.

ended up there uh until their uh one of. their dear leaders passed away in 1999. The other Errol Zindic passed away in. 2012. So that's when that kind of ended. But um and we'll talk about this last. group um toward the end. But uh most. famously it's probably known in where. you might have seen articles or news. reports uh people moving there that. suffer from electromagnetic. hypersensitivity. >> Yeah. We'll talk a little bit more about. that later. Right. >> Yeah. >> So uh if you have heard about this is a.

good chance that you stumbled across um. a wired article on it appropriately. >> That might have been where I read about. it. >> There's a guy named Steven Kerzy um. who's an author. He's a journalist who. just kind of I was reading um one of his. wired articles and he was talking about. how he became kind of obsessed with the. idea of living without a phone. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And did did so quite impressively for a. very long time and he found out about. the National Radio Quiet Zone and was.

you know naturally attracted to it. wanted to find out more about it. So he. started hanging out there and writing. about it. So, a lot of um the best. information about what life is actually. like in there and what how things are. actually done come from um some of his. reporting. And one of the things that he. points out is that um if you are caught. using say like a cell phone uh within. the the like the two miles of the. Greenbank Observatory, you are subject. to a $50 a day fine for as long as.

you're using that phone. >> That's right. And as far as Kery can. tell, absolutely no one in the history. of the Greenbank Observatory has ever. been fined because again, they're trying. to um do this all through cooperation. rather than they're trying to use the. carrot, not the stick, I guess. [laughter]. >> Exactly. So, uh if you're listening to. your DVDs, your CDs, that's fine. You. can't stream your music because there. will be an enforcer that comes along uh.

to probably very kindly ask you. enforcer is not the right word at all. [laughter]. A nudger. >> uh that will come along. And that job. for a very long time was held by a man. named Wesley. >> Seismore, >> which by the way, this all sprang, I. think, a banger of a movie idea for me. >> Oh, good. I can't wait to see it. >> You'll never see it, but I'll tell you. about it one day. >> Okay. >> Uh I'll blow the dust off the script and. hand it to you. Um. >> you don't know. It could be it could be. your ticket to stardom. >> Hey, you never know. But Wesley Seismore.

did this job of enforcer. Uh, it's a guy. who drives around in a truck or a van. equipped with RFI identifying gear. >> Mhm. >> And look for this interference. Um, sometimes you say, "Hey, man." Or they. don't say, "Hey, man." He goes, "Hey, Mr. uh Mr. Ronald,". >> because he probably knows everybody. >> Sure. >> At least in my script he does. >> And says, you know, you you got to you. know, you can't use that microwave. You. got to you got to unplug that thing or. just give it to me so it's not a. temptation. sometimes uh he's he's goes.

uh I can probably work something out for. you that works without interference. uh. very very famously he is the guy I think. >> uh he there was a malfunctioning. electric blanket. >> that was causing some interference and. so he went out and got one that worked. and you know it's funded by the NRAO. obviously he's not doing it out of his. pocket but apparently a lot of people in. town sort of see him or saw him while he. was doing the job is like a free repair. man in town. >> yeah like yeah just sit around and wait.

for Chuck Nay to come find you and. repair you. >> he's the new guy. >> oh Sorry. Yeah, that was um Wesley. Seismore. Chuck Naday is the new guy. You're right. Um he's been going since. 2011. As far as I can tell, he's still. the guy who does this. I believe he has. a background in electrical engineering. Um, and one of the things that like. Greenbank does, including Chuck Naday in. working with people who like want to put. up some sort of radio antenna, they'll.

actually help you design it so that it. works really well, but it doesn't. interfere with the telescope. Like. that's the level of coordination and. cooperation they're doing ideally. >> And Chuck Naday is one of those guys. He. goes around and finds, you know, who's. using Wi-Fi routers, but also kind of is. hands-on as well, helping come up with. solutions basically. >> Yeah. I don't know if you have your. phone, but I just texted you a picture. of Chuck Naday or Nadai. Uh he looks. exactly like you would think. [laughter].

>> He looks like like like a like the dude. super friendly that drives around in. this truck full of electric gear. >> Mhm. uh looking to to friendly solve. problems in a friendly way. >> like Steven Seagal basically. >> No, no, no, not at all. Did I ever tell. you about being behind Steven Seagal's. house in LA? >> No, this one's new. >> Uh I think I talked about being in. Meatloaf's house at one point or. another. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um the the what's the cherry on top.

called again? >> The L Yap on Top. The land yap on top of. that story that I don't think I ever. revealed or I may have and it was years. ago was that Steven Seagal lived behind. him. >> And I knew this because when I was. jumping on the trampoline in Meatloaf's. backyard, every time I went up, I saw. these little like uh Asian pagod tops. that look like little tops of little Taj. Mahals. >> And I was like, "What is that?" And they. were like, "That's Seagal's place.". [laughter]. >> Are you sure they didn't mean George. Seagal? >> Oh, well, that's George Seagull, but.

sure. >> [laughter]. >> That would have been a twist. >> Yeah, it would have. So, did you see. Steven Seagal there? >> Oh, no, no, no, no. >> I remember, >> no matter how high I jumped, I could not. get a a picture. >> I remember um I read there was a GQ. profile, I believe, years and years and. years ago about him and the title of it. was the biggest liar in Hollywood. >> Oh jeez. Yeah, he's he's not a good guy. >> It was eviscerating. I would I would. recommend going and reading it. >> Yeah, I'll check it out.

Yeah, just add it to your list. >> Uh, should we take a break? I feel like. Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. We're going to take a break. and we're going to talk about what. they're doing out there right after. this. >> [music]. [music].

>> Then you came along and it was like. [music]. >> uh Yeah. Well, we were work pals. >> Okay, Chuck. So, we were talking about. um how cell phone towers and. transmitters like that like GPS. transmitters, that kind of thing, like. commercial grade stuff are really the. biggest problem for the telescopes. The. reason why I don't think we said the. reason why it's not just interference,

right? I saw a sideby-side picture of a. radio telescope um I think of a pulsar. uh and one uh of the same thing but with. a lot of interference. >> And it's just like Yeah. you it'd be. impossible to pick some of this stuff. out. Interference is one problem. Another problem is is that remember how. sensitive those telescopes are? Their. amplifiers get blown out really easily. >> Um there was a uh in that article they. were talking about Chuck Naday helping.

fashion an antenna for a smoke alarm. And um they were like if this smoke. alarm went off and it sent the this. message out through the antenna, if we. didn't make it right, it would blow the. green bank telescope like it would blow. the amplifier out. Like that's all it. would take. So that's really there's a. couple of problems with it, right? But. there's also another problem that very. few people could do anything about and. that is from all of the satellites that. are in orbit these days. >> Yeah, for sure. Especially the low earth.

orbit satellites. Mhm. >> Uh not only you're going to get visible. light pollution, which is its own. problem with uh all the telescopes, but. radio interference is a big problem. >> Yeah. >> So, what they're doing there, again, these seem like the greatest bunch of. people because they don't come at it. again with a stick. They're like, "Hey, let's work together uh to to make sure. you can do what you need to do and we. can still do what we need to do, right?". Uh so they're working on developing. what's called a national radio dynamic. zone uh which is a a collaborative.

initiative basically between the two. well not two groups between one group. and a lot of other groups that have. these satellites. >> um to try and you know just talk with. each other better and make sure that. they can all like I said get their jobs. done. They don't have a permanent home. yet uh but they're they're working on. it. >> Yeah. They're trying to build a research. center where satellite operators can. test new technologies that will let. satellites work but minimize radio. interference. >> Hopefully they get that up because.

there's a huge problem with radio and. light pollution um from satellites and. we're just adding more and more and more. every year. >> Yeah, for sure. Um. all right, so if you were thinking, "Guys, when are you going to talk about. aliens?". Now's the time because uh we talked. about kind of the things they're doing. there and this is one of the things. they're doing there. Uh one of the very. first projects they started out on years. ago was what would be the origins of. SETI, the search for extraterrestrial.

intelligence. Uh in 1959, the NRAO. researcher named Frank Drake uh launched. a study called Project Osma, so named. for one of Elrank Bomb's characters in. his Oz books. >> Mhm. um he started looking for life out. there and while it didn't work initially. it that really launched uh what saidi. would become. >> Yeah. Frank Drake uh we've talked about. him plenty of times. He came up with the. Drake equation which is a really. interesting formula for trying to figure. out how many intelligent civilizations.

might be in the universe. um he's the. guy who came up with that and Greenbank. is the place where he came up with it. because he was working there and he also. hosted a um pretty. >> pretty rocking party. >> a rocking party [laughter]. that that featured Carl Sean a guy named. Melvin Calvin who's a biochemist John. Lily who we talked about the whacked out. dolphin researcher who used to give acid. to dolphins. >> Yeah. uh and they so Frank Drake came up.

with the Drake equation as basically the. agenda for this conference and then they. kind of hashed it out and they very. famously calculated that there's at. least 10,000 advanced intelligent alien. civilizations just in the Milky Way. galaxy. Um if you don't know about the. Drake equation, go look it up. It'll. open up a whole world of interesting. stuff with you. But the upshot is like. you said this um still continues today. because this research at Greenbank. essentially thanks to Frank Drake and.

others gave birth to the search for. extraterrestrial intelligence or SETI. >> and um SEI is still performed at the. Greenbank Telescope to this day. >> Has the rapper Drake ever put out a song. or album called the Drake Equation? >> No, but I'm glad you brought I don't. know. He may have. >> He should have. if he hasn't. That's it. seems like a no-brainer. >> I'm glad you brought that up though. because I had heard of the the quiet. zone before. I didn't know much about. it. But the thing that prompted this. episode is one of our listeners, a guy.

named Andrew Phelps. He's a photographer. and uh with another photographer named. Paul Cranler, they um went to the the. quiet zone around Greenbank and took. like they basically made a photo. documentary of life in the area. Oh, cool. and they named their book Drake. Equation and they sent us a copy. So, hats off to those guys for the the book, for making the book and sending it to. us. >> I thought you were talking about someone. else at first cuz wish I could remember. his name. I follow him on Instagram now.

There's a listener that is an. astro or astral photographer. >> Oh, neat. >> Where basically he he's I don't know. where he goes to get these pictures. It's obviously in other quiet zones of. the world. Okay. or at least dark. places, you know, uh, and gets and it's. not just like he sets up a a nice camera. and does a long exposure. Like it's. really sophisticated equipment, uh, and. and process that he goes through to get.

stuff that looks like it doesn't look. real. It's like, you know, celestial. bodies that like it looks like some AI. generated art. It's incredible stuff. Um, I think if it was an astral. photographer, he'd be taking pictures of. like auras. >> Auras. Yeah, I think [laughter] as soon. as. >> I got Tell Make sure you um figure out. that guy's name. >> I will and I'll I'll follow up on an. episode. I'll I'll see if I can find it. It's really really impressive, super. cool and very just a super cool hypersp. specific uh art form. I think you know.

>> Yeah. Or people if uh you can't wait, they can go to you Chuck the podcaster. on Instagram and look at who you follow. and figure it out. Yeah, sure. >> There you go. >> I follow Josh um Clark. >> Do you? >> Of course I do. >> I follow you, too. >> Yeah. Thanks. >> Are you just now realizing that? >> Yeah. >> Well, you don't post much. >> No, I really don't. I. >> Good for you. >> I want to say I should more, but I. shouldn't. >> I'm doing just [laughter] fine. >> I think you're doing just great.

>> Well, you do great, too. >> Hey, you know who also does great? >> Who? >> Jerry. >> She does do great, doesn't she? [laughter]. Uh, all right. We're okay. We were. talking about things that go on there. Uh, SEI, another thing that might not. surprise you is military intelligence. goes on there. Um, many years ago, they. uh started something called the Sugar. Grove Research Station at the time. called the Sugar Grove US Naval Radio. Station. This was in 1959. >> Mhm. >> Uh, when the Navy started building uh.

what was going to be the world's largest. radio antenna. It was called the Big Ear. where they were going to listen in and. intercept, you know, Russian intel. Uh. they never finished the Big Ear because. they were worried it was not. structurally sound. So rather than. moving on to the medium ear, uh I guess. they didn't think it sounded cool. enough, they just scrapped it all. together. But they still have a station. at Sugar Grove and um the NSA is also. there. So I'm sure it's all on the up. and up as far as who and what they're.

listening to. Well, actually, I saw. actually, Chuck, I saw that the NSA. abandoned Sugar Grove. >> Oh, they're not. >> in like the last year. >> Oh, okay. >> And it's for sale. You can buy the whole. dang town. >> The um which is has like a number of. houses. It has like a recycling plant. It has everything. All sorts of stuff. Just I think the the highest bid. recently was like 1.6 million. And I.

guess it was a joke cuz they couldn't. come through with it. So I think if you. come up with $11 million, they'd be. happy to take it and you could probably. get it for less. >> Wow. I mean, considering what Kim. Basinger paid for Brazleton, Georgia in. the 80s or 90s. >> How much was it? Do you remember? >> It was a lot. >> Was it? >> I think so. But I mean, >> did she. >> that that was she bought a town? >> I remember. Does she still own it? >> No, she got out of the Brassleton. business. [laughter].

She had the market cornered for a. minute, though. >> Uh, I usually don't look these things. up. Guess what? The AI overview talks. about the average home sale price. >> Oh, wow. How surprising. >> Yeah. And and home is misspelled. [laughter]. >> Uh, I'll find it at some point. You can. continue. >> Okay. So, um, there's also been a bunch. of great scientific discoveries there, as you can imagine. >> $20 million in 1989. >> Do you know how much she sold the town. for? No, I'm I'm not going to look that. up either. Some things have to be left.

to the imagination. >> I think that's great, Chuck. Uh, plus. the AI overview just shrugged, right? Put a shrug emoji up. >> All right, I interrupted. You were. talking about scientific discoveries. >> Yeah, and we're talking radio. aastronomy. So, there's stuff like um. interstellar molecules. Some of the. first ones were discovered. I think half. of the interstellar molecules we know. about were discovered in the 60s at um. Greenbank. um like pictures of pole stars and like. we understand the universe a lot more.

thanks to it, but they're also really. arcane. >> um. I guess discoveries that seem like they. were just like total like they would. only interest like two people, right? >> For example, the Ze they it was the. first detection of zemen splitting. >> Zemen splitting is where spectral lines, you know those black bands like on the. on the spectrum. >> Sure. just kind of pop up spectral. lines. They split in the presence of a. magnetic field that was discovered at.

Greenbank Observatory. And you might say. like great, who cares? >> But this is just one of those things. that shows you how science builds on. science. This actually confirmed quantum. theory for the first time because it. showed that electrons respond to. magnetic fields and it proved a lot of. like the math that um had been um. proposed for quantum theory. it hadn't. been confirmed yet. That discovery at. Greenbank Observatory confirmed it. That's just one of a number of.

incomprehensible discoveries that were. made there. So, it is important. This. isn't just a group of astronomers who. who want their cake. >> Um they're just fat little bully boys or. anything like that. >> They there are actual like important. there's important work being carried out. because this is such a unique place. Oh man, the mental picture was. astounding. That just came over me. Uh, all right. So, we mentioned earlier on. people that move there that suffer from. what's called electromagnetic.

hypersensitivity. This may be where you have read about it. or seen news reports because there's a a. woman named Diane uh Sha I guess S H O W. there for a long time and she's she's. basically the most kind of the foremost. uh sufferer of EHS. Uh she moved to the. NRQZI a while ago, got 14 acres near. Greenbank. um founded the wave analysis. verification uh research.

is not a center just. >> no because then it' be waver. >> I guess so but it's it's a nonprofit and. uh basically she she went there to to to. live more healthily um for her own needs. and to also do research on the disease. and also help bring people in and. educate and care for people uh with the. disease and the idea is that people are. um super sensitive obviously uh to. electromagnetic waves and they feel like.

it gets them sick, headaches, nausea, dizziness, chest pain, hair loss. Uh and. I say feels like because it's never been. proven that this is a real thing, right? >> No. One of the things that really. undermines the concept of. electromagnetic hypersensitivity as an. actual medical condition is that people. who suffer from it can't reliably tell. when they're in the presence of. electromagnetic frequencies. >> Right? They've been given tests and.

tests and tests where they are being. bombarded with an electromagnetic pulse. and next they um say that they are and. they're they're not actually being. bombarded with it and they can't say. like yes now I'm I'm being exposed to. electromagnetic radiation now I'm not. So that alone makes it seem like it's. simply a psychological disorder or a. noibo effect that people are being like. their symptoms are real. Like they're. losing their hair. They're not pulling.

it out in secret and saying I lost my. hair because of this. They're their. symptoms are real. What's causing it. seems to just be in their mind. I say. that though with the kernel of salt, grain of salt. Um. >> because there have been diseases before. that were treated like this initially. >> Yeah. >> Um and it turned out like no, these. people were just a group of mistreated. sufferers who actually were suffering. from something that's now recognized. So. it's possible that's the case. And even.

if that's not the case, these people. actually are suffering, right? Um, so. the World Health Organization uh. recognizes it as a medical condition, but a medical condition that um warrants. further study to figure out what the. heck's going on and how to actually help. people who suffer from this regardless. of what the the cause is. >> Yeah, for sure. And and if e e e e e e e. e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e. e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e. e e e e e e e e e e e e e either way uh. in either case, it's really great that. uh Diane Sha and whoever has has met her.

and followed her there have a place to. go where it is quiet for them, you know. >> Yeah. And if you're like this kind of. sounds familiar, Lenny from Leverne and. Shirley on Better Call Saul, he suffered. from electromagnetic hypersensitivity. >> Ah, I did not see that show. Oh, it's. still on the long list, but um I thought. you were going to say Julian Moore in. the Todd Haynes film Safe, >> but that was a little different. I think. that was uh and I don't know the name.

for it that but the people that think um. it's like uh everything's dirty and uh. everything is going to get them sick. >> Hypochondria. >> No, but more more of uh I mean I'm sure. it's a maybe a subset of hypochondria, but it's like everything is dirty. Everything I touch will get me sick. Everything uh there's um everything's. tainted. >> and dangerous and germy. >> I mean, that's just normal for me, >> right? >> No. To the point where they can't.

function in the world, you know? >> Yeah. I don't mean to make light of it. >> No, I know. I know what you mean, though. But you're a little. >> Jeremy. The whole thing um reminds me of our. episode from 2014 about Morgalon's. disease. Remember that? >> Oh, yeah. What was that again? It's where people I think think they're. suffering from something that comes out. of their skin and when they bring. samples of what they what they think is. is like this evidence that they're sick, it turns out to be like lint or thread. from a coat or just the smallest. weirdest stuff.

>> and they're like, "This doesn't exist, guys." And and I I don't know where it. left off, but it was really interesting. >> That's right. Uh, and a nice way to. remind people that Amorgalon's disease. is in from the old vault. And there are. lots and lots of episodes in the vault. that you probably don't even know about. unless you've been listening for 17. years. >> Sure. Coming up on 18. >> That's right. In April. >> So, what's going on with the the uh the. National Radio Quiet Zone, Chuck? >> It's still it's still putting along, you.

know. Uh they're still trying to work it. out with uh the the satellites in orbit. near them. They're still trying to work. it out with the residents. >> Uh, and they're they're keeping on. keeping on. >> There were two things that happened. recently. Um, well, one not too. recently, but one very recently. The the. National Science Foundation turned the. Greenbank Observatory out, said, "We're. done with you.". >> And it looked like the end of it, I. think back in like 2012, it looked like. the end of the observatory. And instead, everybody who worked there banded.

together and um looked for private. funding and now it's privately funded. >> Oh, that's cool. The other thing that. happened is that they seem to have. figured out how to address the Wi-Fi. issue for everybody and that was. Starlink. Um the uh the the basically. global internet. >> um they figured out that if you use. fixed Starlink where like you're just. using it in your house, you're not. moving around using it, >> it it doesn't disrupt the function of.

the radio telescope. The problem is if. you use like the the moving around the. mobile version to where like it's you're. getting signals say like on your phone. while you're driving that messes with. the telescope. So for 95.5%. of the population around Greenbank. >> their their problem is solved because. they can use the fixed Starlink. For. that other 0.5 percent though, it's a. big problem because emergency medical. services wanted to use Starlink um to.

communicate with each other to respond. to emergencies and now they're like, "We. can't use radios. We can't use Starlink. What are what are we going to do?" And. that's kind of where it stands right. now. There's a they're at an impass. trying to figure out how to let EMS do. its thing. >> Uh yeah, and again, as of just August of. last year is when they were allowed the. Wi-Fi, but I don't think we said the. speed at a robust 2.4 for uh what is it? I don't even know what it is. Is it that. slow? Mega something. >> Gigahertz. >> Gigahertz.

>> And the I think the reason why they. allowed that is I read that be because. there's so many Wi-Fi routers operating. on 2.4 now that that band of the radio. universe is just it's just trash now. You can't do astronomy on it anyway. So. I think they were like. >> do astronomy on it. >> No, you can't. Don't even try. >> Yeah. >> You got anything else? I got nothing. else. >> Okay. Uh I think then everybody that. means it's time for listener mail.

>> Uh this sort of ties in a little bit. It's about the AM radio episode. Uh cuz. we mentioned it was an important alert. system. >> still. Uh and this happened to Hannah. from Texas in 2016 when Hannah lived in. Denim Springs, Louisiana. Was hit by a. terrible flood that knocked out cell. phone communications. >> So it was like Greenbank for a short. time. >> Mhm. Uh guys, we we still had enough. internet to receive information, but. couldn't send anything. So, we had. gotten word that [music] we could tune. in to a specific AM radio station each. evening between a certain time to hear. families who were calling and asking if.

their loved ones were okay. Uh my. partner at the time and I would go. [music] out to my car, turn on the. radio, and listen. And every evening, we. got updates on who was looking for who, who was on the way to help us or not, [music] and who had been marked as safe. Uh, sure enough, a couple of days in, we. heard my mom calling in to try and. confirm that her baby girl, me, was. okay. Wow. >> Uh, we also got word that my dad, who. was part of the Cinjun Navy at the time, haven't even [music] looked that up yet, but that's. >> I absolutely need to find out what that. is. >> I guarantee it's interesting. [laughter].

>> Nice. Uh, we would be uh that they would. be headed our way if they didn't get. word within the next couple of days. Uh. we were able to through a long uh chain. of communication though to let my family. know we were okay. And we heard our own. names marked as alive and well, which. was surreal on the AM radio. And a few. days later, we were able to coordinate. our evacuation using that same AM radio. station. >> Wow. >> I've been I know. It's pretty great. I've been listening to you guys for. years and you never cease to delight me. with your jokes, references, and general. information. I recommend you to everyone.

I meet. Much appreciated, Hannah. [music] and I frequently cite your. episodes when sharing fun facts with. co-workers and friends. Hannah from. Texas. >> Man, Hannah, thank you. I'm glad you. guys are okay over there. And uh that. was an amazing email. That was one of. the tops. Hannah, >> agash that says as much. >> Uh if you want to be like Anna and send. us a top email, we would love to get. that. You can send it off to us at. stuffpodcast@ iheartradio.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. [music] For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.